Dr. Matteo Cantarello, PhD in Spanish | Project Support Agent at Europol

In this episode, we discuss how Matteo’s childhood experiences inspired him to pursue a PhD in Spanish, the importance of forming a community among colleagues and friends during his time in graduate school, and his advice for intentionally looking inward to identify a career path that suits your interests and skills.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Matteo and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

Hi! I'm co-host Lois Dankwa, and this is the 100 Alumni Voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Matteo Cantarello, PhD in Spanish and current project support agent at Europol. Hi Matteo.

Matteo Cantarello 

Hi, Lois, how are you today?

Lois Dankwa

I'm good. I'm I'm enjoying the day so far, and I'm excited to have a little chat with you. How's your day going?

Matteo Cantarello 

It's going really well, thank you. I'm also looking forward to this.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, this this is gonna be fun. Well, I wanna first start by hearing a little bit about what made you want to pursue a PhD in Spanish, and just hear more about your graduate work and experience at Hopkins.

Matteo Cantarello 

So, well, first of all, I'm from Italy. So, I did my both my BA and MA in Italy. It's quite common also for Italian, the Italian youth, to to study pretty much where they live. There is no really such a thing like university ranking. So, any place is good as long as keep you close to home. So, at the end of my career I wanted to do more. I studied well, the equivalent, I guess, of comp lit in Italy. I spent my year abroad in Spain. I wanted to focus on something more related to Latin America. Spain and Italy at that time were a little bit more, I say, less advanced when it comes to scholarship and scholars working on Latin America than the US. And and when I was 24 especially, I was extremely excited at the idea of going to to the US. I mean I know so much about the maybe not so much about music, but about, you know, culture and and literature, and and TV and history, that I was very excited. So, I I decided to give it a try, and it it ended up really well. So, yeah, mostly the reason was the idea of spending a few years in the US doing what I loved, and I still love, and and and to continue studying, working on a project that I thought that they might have needed a few more months or a few more years, that it turned out to be, and it worked out pretty well.

Lois Dankwa

That's pretty cool, and it's it's fun. It's always fun to hear people's origin stories. And you mentioned how, just from your early studies, you started to realize you were interested in Latin America, and that was really what sparked things for you. I think about how for myself growing up, it was some, there was random topics that I was seemingly really fixated on, and then those are what are the things that are now showing up in my dissertation work, even though I forgot I was interested in them. And then what I'm doing a dissertation like interview, I'm like, oh, my gosh! A 15 year old version of myself loved that topic, and it sounds like nuggets of that exist in what your experience was as well.

Matteo Cantarello 

Yes, yes, so to be a little bit more narrative, or you know, I wanna say almost sentimental. Well, I've always liked reading. I actually started reading very, very early. I'm I'm not gonna delve into the whole like school system in Italy, but pretty much I spent like one extra year in kindergarten, because I was born in January, so my very last year before going to elementary school, I I actually started reading. And so, I started reading a lot the time. You know, there weren't many video games around. And my my parents, especially my dad, they they didn't go to college. Actually, my mother didn't even finish high school, but especially my dad, he read a lot. He read a lot. He especially liked, for some reason, Latin American stuff. So, in the house we've had a lot of, there were a lot of Latin American books, in Italian, of course, because Italians translate everything or dub anything, because they're really bad at languages and I remember one day there was this like book that was quite thick, especially from a young age. It was like central on the library shelves, and and I asked him like once if he had read it, and like, if he liked it, and everything. And he said, this is like I mean, you're still too young to it for it, but this is probably the best book you will ever read. And that book turned out to be 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. So, I think I even wrote a like a piece like years ago, when I was writing for a blog with a few friends, because I think I read that book in like 7 different periods of my life, and it always like told me something different. But but yeah, like at the end of the day, I really liked reading. The the Italian school system is more about learning stuff than it is to like create something of your own. So, be creative. So, for me, the whole school was about like reading a lot and getting to talk or to discuss things. So, if you gotta leave it for complicating in the US. But that's a different part.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, wait. So, I'm curious. It sounds like it has been one of the best books you've ever read. But was it the best book you've ever read?

Matteo Cantarello 

I mean having read a lot, I want to say that it's true what they say about there's a book for every season of your life. There are books that I think resonate with us much, much more than others. There are books that doesn't matter how many times you read them, you always want to read them. And I mean some some books, and a lot of them thinking about this like, I'm I'm getting a little emotional because I makes me think about my dad. Yeah, it's probably not the best book I've read. But in terms of like things that I've learned, and things that I can remember of my life because of the times when I read that book, it it's probably the most, to a certain extent almost overwhelming. It really mirrors the nature of that book, which is, I guess, like overwhelmingly unique to an extent.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it's, it's interesting how certain moments similar to how, when you're younger and as your developing your interests, it's certain pieces of your life continue to influence what you want to do professionally, but then it's also there are just certain memories that continue to stick out, and those are the memories that continue to inspire us and influence us as we're we're working on things professionally. And I'm curious, then, like, what are the things that were those driving forces while you were pursuing your doctorate where it was like you would just keep remembering this and it helped guide what you wanted to do while you were like during your PhD but then also afterwards?

Matteo Cantarello 

Hmm! Let's say that, based on my personal background—It's a very, it's a very dense question. Things that I'm thinking about at least a couple of things that drug me through my PhD or at least like to complete it. One thing was by far the amazing group of people I managed to live with for so many years. If there is, yeah, again, like, except for my, for my degree, and like the the professional academic experience or knowledge that I had been building 30 years. I I've also seen a lot of colleagues and peers and friends and people I met who, for a lot of reason, had to like were not able to finish. And I I learned that for a lot of them one of the main issues I want to say, or problems was actually that they were not as lucky as I was in finding a group of people that I said like the one I found. So, that was definitely like a must have. That's probably like a must have to finish your degree. Some folks already have families when they start, so that's something. Some folks are younger. I was with, I was quite young. Some folks are single, or you know they have a a partner. It's tough, but at the end of the day, again, coming from where I was coming, I I considered myself lucky, you know, like I was in a place for a fixed amount of years. The fellowship was, let's say you we you know it was enough, and yes, I I have to be honest. The, the, the, the dissertation per se is so that let's say that the the the second half of the PhD for us, at least in the humanities, it's it's tough, because you're still quite young. And the the level of project management skills that you need to carry out or to finalize such a project is extremely challenging. Probably one of the most one of the the most difficult challenges that anyone will ever face in their entire careers or lives. But in the end I just saw it as as that. It was a project that was completely on me, on which I was receiving feedback from anyone who would, you know, dare reading what I was reading and writing, and it just flew. Of course, like anyone had good days or bad days. But yes, again I I was having fun. I've always like reading. I’ve always liked writing, and I guess for me the most frustrating thing in general was the fact that you know everything I was doing was never in my native in my, in my mother tongue, so yes.

Lois Dankwa

Right. I I love how you mentioned how like our backgrounds just influence how we experience the doctoral program in general. But then also the importance of community. So, for me, for example, I, my parents, are both Ghanaian, and whether or not I realize it, just having parents that are not from America or being not from America, for example, just influences how you think about things, you do things in existing spaces, but then that your community is so important during the doctoral program because of all of the things that you said. It's where you're in the second half of the PhD or doctorate you’re literally just figuring out all of the Project management pieces, and I was having a conversation with multiple friends yesterday. I had a social day that was very needed for myself. Just because I was I was in that weird stewing moment, you know, and that's really the importance of having community in your doctoral program. I understand that for sure.

Matteo Cantarello 

How? Yeah, I guess it. It's really it's it's really a personal thing. How I understand that some people don't have the same need or urge to be with other people. I think to a certain extent I’m a little weird, because I'm really like a people person to the extent that sometimes it becomes frustrating because I feel like it's it's always borderline between like being a people person or a people pleaser, and like to avoid conflict I still have to figure out like what kind of person I am or like where I actually sit. But at a certain time, I really it really urges me to have like alone time in in general, in in any moment of life. But but I think it's it's really healthy when you're doing something like a PhD. I do not know like where you are in your in your path, like what stage you are, but you probably realized that you needed different things and different like time management and people around depending on where you are. Oh, yeah, no community plays a pivotal role. It's, you know, such a such a long period of time you need to spend most times, you know, away from everyone and everything. Yeah, it's, it's it's important to find find good people with whom you get to share everything.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, yeah, it's it's funny. You mentioned, like the type of person you realized you were where you you just really like people and being around people. And I it's so I'm in the moment of the dissertation where it's like, okay, I need to collect data. But then also analyze the data I've collected. And I, I also identify as a a people person where, like sometimes, if I've had a moment of just being very intensely in my work, where I needed to re-energize from being with all the people, I need to then get reinfused with all of the people and surrounding myself with all my friends. So, it's a weird balance, but I noticed for myself how, for my dissertation work it's, I really just incorporated what was natural to me, liking people and liking to talk to people in my work specifically. So, that meant that I I conducted interviews, and on the topic that I'm interested in. And I'm curious how things that were innate to you like liking people, for example, you noticed show up in your doctoral work. Like did it show up in what you were doing specifically? Or was it more just like in terms of how you did breaks and stuff like that? But then also, how is it showing up in your work now?

Matteo Cantarello 

I mean, my my doctoral work was 100% on people. It was 100% on actually, the the whole doctoral work was grounded on the assumption that literature, which is, I mean, quite literally, like literary tales. So, any account that has been written and and fictionalized actually tells the story of someone. And I also focused on a theme that has been quite popular for a few decades. Which is organized crime, and my whole point was to show how literary tales or literary fictions were always like getting there and getting to the core of the business and describing societal changes and transformations, even before then, for instance, politics or government. So, for me people's stories have always been like at the core, and that's still to date like a very, very difficult thing to deal with. Because whenever you think about a project that aims at, let's say, gather ideas or people's stories or lives, and you need to make a condensed, summarized account of all that, I mean to me the same, like the very core of that conception is not realistic. Like you can't possibly make of many one, especially when it comes to people. But you have to sometimes.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah.

Matteo Cantarello 

And I mean now now I work in let's say in between policy and law enforcement. It's really cool. It's really cool, especially to work on a daily basis with people whose background is completely different than mine. It's very enriching because everyone comes from a different place. I was used to academia in the US where I you know, I wanna say, half of the people I was dealing with were from the US and the other half, I was in Latin American studies, so most people were from Latin America or from Spain. I haven't met. I think I've met like maybe one or two Italians in, you know, the years is spent in academia to date. And here in Europe, you know, there are just 27 Member States in the European Union. So, you know no one's English is perfect, but it's it's magnificent what it happens when you put all these people from different places in the same workplace, and they need to work for something that is at the same time, you know, central, and something that, of course, needs to serve citizens in 27 countries. And and counting, I mean, like, we're also, of course, dealing with countries that are beyond the scope of the European Union. So, yeah, it's, it's actually really nice. That the I I hadn’t I thought about this before you ask me the question. So, thank you.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's I love how you mentioned cause I I think I believe this through and through, that people's people's stories and just their experiences in their lives are they're at the core of like everything. Like regardless of what topic you're interested in, it's just at the end of the day you're just talking about people and people's lives, whether it's thinking about health outcomes or, I'm just gonna mention things that are related to me, or how health services work for people or things like that. And you mentioned you're in a role now where you like, you're just, it's not necessarily regulatory, but like policy and law enforcement are just more, they're more structured spaces in terms of how things function and how things are understood. But at the end of the day, they still ultimately affect and influence people's lives in real ways, and for me, as someone that also studies policy and is interested in influencing policy, I'm curious how you've kind of balanced your desire to continue to understand and learn about and influence people’s specific lives and their experiences and working in a space that both has that aim but then also doesn't necessarily function in the same—like it's just more structured to just learning about people. Does that make sense?

Matteo Cantarello 

Yes, yes, no no I understand. I mean I I was really thinking about the quest—the the the answer. But the question was, was clear, and also very sharp. I think we all also need to probably—I mean sorry we—I always try to and I I I you know I've achieved this with time, but also with with being able to to pursuing a different career path than academia, because it was on the little bit more, let's say, it was very compressed and fused together, this idea that helping people is 100% related to what you do on a daily basis. Whereas I've been realizing in the past year and a half that sure there are things you do with work that are relevant and will influence people's lives. But I think it's likewise important the way one behaves in their own life, you know, outside of work, what activities you are doing, society, community, volunteering. And bearing in mind that again, most things you do, especially in some sectors, will have a direct repercussion over people's existence. But I think the other aspect we need to focus on, or we need to think about is what is actually the drive, like for certain issues. Like are we looking in the correct direction? Or are people looking at, you know, at where we should be looking at? Sorry, this is getting a little bit too philosophical. 

Lois Dankwa

Haha, philosophical is my area. So, I love it.

Matteo Cantarello 

I mean to me, like I can continue on this like, just because again, this is my personal, yeah, this is my personal perspective. It doesn't have to do, it's not related to the agency I work for, or anyone else from anything else. Like I think that at the core of lots of things like lots of, let's say, let's say societal issues or you know, problems we’re facing these days in in, I want to say in the world, but let's let's narrow it down to like, you know, Western societies, or the Western world, or actually, the global North is is related to inequality. We actually created inequality, wars and inequality elsewhere. So so that that is, to begin with, am mere economic issue. It's a repetition of well, so from there there are a lot of issues that have to do once again with communities, with safety, security. But, once again, we I think we're steering toward too broad shores or seas, and I'm I'm not even sure I'm prepared, because then it becomes literally talking about thoughts and feelings. 

Lois Dankwa

Another another area which is my, my, my area. But right, we don't need to be weeping by the end of our conversation.

Matteo Cantarello 

No, no, let's let's keep it fun. Let's keep it fun. It's been fun, and we can keep it more fun.

Lois Dankwa

I love that you mentioned how we have the agency to be more dynamic than what our professional role allows for. So, it's yes, we can do one part of our interest through whatever our job is or our career path is. But then also if you're not fulfilling a certain interest through work, you can also volunteer or help in your community in certain ways, or do all kinds of other things to release your creative outlets, and I'm curious what advice you would have for someone who's interested in pursuing their career in a way that you have.

Matteo Cantarello 

I think that one thing I always I talk about this a lot with my brother. I think that something that not only people in general, but some some structures and institutions in our society take for granted a lot is the fact that very young people or people at a very young age are able to ascertain on the perm name like what they want to be in their life. I think that at this is at least for Italy. I know that the US it's a little different, and that the way you guys. Sorry I'm saying, you guys, because I I always assume that you also went to school in the US. But I'm not sure about it.

Lois Dankwa

Oh, I did. Yeah.

Matteo Cantarello 

Okay, so so let's say that the way I've seen it is that the US leaves you some liberty of maneuver up to a certain point. Like even the first years of college, you're still like in between choosing, you know, even between like you pick a major, you have a couple of years to figure out what you actually like. In in Italy for instance, like already when you like, when you're 12, so at the end of what's it like, no, sorry. Not 12, 14, when you're in your 8th year? Here I completely forgot what what you guys called the years in elementary, middle school, anyway, at the end of middle school in Italy you already have to make like a pretty important choice between like schools that will then make you go or like facilitate you going through college vis a vie schools that either give you like some basic knowledge for pursuing a profession or a more technical career. And this is like a big choice, I mean, it becomes pretty much like an estimate, like an educated guess, based on what you like doing when you're in middle school. If that were not enough, when you're 19 or 18, like your college choice, is that. Like when I started college, I started comp lit. So, like my exams were linguistics, History of the Language, a foreign literature, grammar. Like I stopped doing math. I stopped doing physics and everything, any science, hard science. All this to say, to go back to your question, that that is the most important thing to do for a person, and at the same time it's gonna be the most difficult not only as you go through school, but or as you pick like your first job, but for the rest of your life. Because what you like doing when you're 15, and what you're able to do and what you're good at doing when you’re 15 might be very different from what, from the same thing when you're 20, 25, 30, and 35. Not to mention that as soon as you leave your comfort zone, and you're lucky or unlucky enough depending on how you see it, to like leave. Like in my case, for instance, that I managed to to to find a good job that was not in, let's say, in in my hopes or desires at the beginning, in terms of line of work, I I realize that I have skills that people I work with, they never developed, because in their line of work it was not necessary, and so I find myself that for instance there are things I know, and I'm just giving examples, like things or skills like, you know, report writing versus public speaking. We tend to take them a lot of for granted in Academia. They might not be elsewhere. So, once again to to be a little bit sharper in my answer, the first thing people should really, or at least like people should really dedicate a long time to think about what they like doing and how that can turn into or translate into careers.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I think that that's such a good point that the things that you, when you were younger were good at and were interested in may very well not be the same things 20 years later, and part of kind of the development that happens through life is recognizing that. But it's at least for me, it's been helpful to be—I had a mentor once tell me to be kind to yourself in a moment when I was realizing things from my youth were, would need to be revised for my professional career, that I have now. And it's a weird growing experience, where you realize okay, this is actually how those interests will manifest and it's a better, it's better suited to how I function, and better aligned with my strengths. But it's like our younger selves aren't necessarily to blame because there's only so much insight you have at 12 or 15 about your ideas for what you're good at, but then also what you would be good at when you're 35, for example. Yeah, so I certainly understand that. But I have one more question for you today ,Matteo, and I am curious what inspires you right now?

Matteo Cantarello 

Yes, we go back to people, the well-being of people, people I love, people I don't even know, the the well-being of people will always be paramount. I have to say that as as one grows up, and especially when you start like living by yourself, you live in different countries, you live in different with different people, with different populations, you know, like I, since I was like, since I was 24, I've been going back to my country only for the holidays or like for summer break or winter break. But you know I've never actually worked in my country. So so there there's been, there have been so many changes. Like I lived in the US pretty much half of the time I lived in Italy, and now I live in Europe, but I don't live at home. And so, regardless of where you are, what you do, like around you there are always people people who speak different languages, believe in different gods, or believe no gods, have different customs, different ideas, their core values are different from yours. That doesn't mean that you need to not to fit in, or that you can't fit in. And at the same time community always equals, you know the environment, be it like the natural environment, the ecological environment, but also like the urban or the social environment. And you know, at the beginning, when you're growing up, you have so many, there's so much excitement about so many things that are really, I want to say, to a certain extent selfish, or at least like you try to look inside or look into yourself the more you can, because that's what makes you also feel better with yourself and with the others. But you know, as you grow up, you probably start to realize that you're part of many other mechanisms. So, besides people what motivates me now is, you know, the environment taken as an umbrella term for all kinds of environments. Like to make sure that they're functional to this, they can be functional. That also I can give my contribution to make them function, and to be with people in a respectful way, because that's the other thing that I I think a lot of people take for granted that you know there is this polarization these days between people who embrace change versus people who would like the change not to exist or to be much different than the way it is. I think that we also, we all, we also all need to realize that change is scary for everyone, regardless of what like, where you lie politically, and I think it's important to acknowledge that because people it, I think it's the it's a natural response to changes like a fear or like uncertainty. So, it's it's important to acknowledge that to do a better job when it comes to reshape, redefine to a certain extent recreate community or communities. And I I think that for me, now that I'm I just turned 35, actually, like 2 weeks ago.

Lois Dankwa

Happy birthday

Matteo Cantarello 

Thank you. To me, this is like, yeah, drive number one. And and and of course, now I want to be a little cheesy, too, because it's it's definitely due, and my wife, my dog, and my family and friends.

Lois Dankwa

Never cheesy to mention those. I think that—not I think. I know, for sure, you've been speaking my language this whole conversation. I I love like, yeah, it's just remembering people. But then also the context that influences how they show up, is It inspires me daily, just knowing right? We're all living separate, but then also weirdly similar, lives. Because we're being influenced in different ways. I I love how you mentioned that everyone's afraid of change. So, it's about kind of how do you work with that? And understand that people are responding to their fear and their concerns based off of their their experiences and the context that's informing them. I've loved this chat so much, Matteo. It's been so great chatting with you and having you join us just to share more of your story, but also just for us to learn from each other today.

Matteo Cantarello 

It was amazing. Thanks a lot. I really enjoyed it, and thank you, Lois, for everything. It was really a pleasure. It really made my day.