Dr. Darriel Harris, PhD in Health Behavior & Society | Cynthia and Robert S. Lawrence Fellow, Center for a Livable Future at Johns Hopkins University

In this episode, we discuss Darriel’s journey from working as a pastor to pursuing his PhD in public health, his research on the efficacy of using faith-based messaging to promote health and nutrition to faith-based communities, and his advice for putting yourself out there and making personal connections to find your next opportunity.

Hosted by Megan Benay

To connect with Darriel and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Megan Benay

Hi! I'm co-host! Megan Benay and this is the 100 alumni voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Darriel Harris, PhD in public health, and is currently the inaugural Cynthia and Robert S. Lawrence Fellow at the Center for a Livable Future at Johns Hopkins University. Darriel, welcome.

Darriel Harris

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Megan Benay

So, you're the inaugural fellow, inaugural Cynthia and Robert S. Lawrence fellow here at JHU. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Darriel Harris

Yeah, it means I'm special. No, I'm joking.

Megan Benay

You are special.

Darriel Harris

I am special. I have to keep telling myself that. You are special. That's how you get over your imposter syndrome. So, Robert Lawrence was the initial head of the center. And so, when I first became involved with the center in 2013, he was the head, and Cynthia is his devoted wife, and so the the the fellowship is is named after her and him. So, I you know I've known them for some time, and when I first came to Hopkins, I wasn't thinking about the PhD program. I just, I just needed a job, and so.

Megan Benay

What did you first come to do?

Darriel Harris

So, when I first came, I was running this thing called the the Baltimore of Food and Faith Project.

Megan Benay

Say more.

Darriel Harris

So, it was a project out of CLF, Center for a Livable Future, that engaged congregations around the Baltimore Metro area around their food practices, right? And so, it was trying to get them to plant congregational gardens, trying to get them to really think seriously about the food that they serve within their congregation, and what they promote throughout their congregation trying to get to be more ecological, more green if you will. Yeah, and healthier. But health healthiness wasn't the wasn't the primary goal. The primary goal was was ecological.

Megan Benay

Okay. So, an environmental approach to sustainable food habits in the Baltimore metro area.

Darriel Harris

Yeah, of of faith congregations.

Megan Benay

Of faith congregations. Okay, so it's 2013. You need a job. And so, you start doing this very cool environmental work with congregations. And now you're an inaugural fellow, so help us connect the dots. How did that? How did that happen?

Darriel Harris

So, how did that happen? So, I, when I came to Hopkins I had I had just come back from about a year and a half in South Sudan. So, I was in Africa, and I had been working with the the episcopal church of Sudan or the episcopal church of South Sudan depending on what they the name has changed over time. But I was working with them on, and I developed the health education program and the program used faith language to communicate very, you know, basic health education messages to to rural populations in South Sudan. And so, when I came to Hopkins, and so so so doing, it, so, so, using faith as a messaging mechanism was, excuse me, in the church world that's like that's how everything is done. In the public health world, it's a new pedagogy.

Megan Benay

Yeah.

Darriel Harris

And so, I created this program. The program was super successful in one geographical region in South Sudan. And so, we, I was working with the group to like expand it nationwide. Then the war started, and so I was looking for funding to use this pedagogy other places, but no one like in the science world it wasn't a it wasn't an approved method. Because there’s not, it has to be what we call it? What do we call it? Data-based or or 

Megan Benay

Evidence-based? 

Darriel Harris

Evidence-based, yeah. Yes, they have to be, you know, you have to have a evidence-based solution, right? And so, although faith groups have done it this way since the beginning of time or the beginning of faith groups, there's no science on the, on the science, on the scientific side that says that this is how this that this method is effective. 

Megan Benay

There's no Western science that says, you know, that's following our our method and protocol that says that this is effective. But you knew that this worked.

Darriel Harris

Yes, and I needed Western funding, right? 

Megan Benay

Yeah.

Darriel Harris

And so, I'm I'm looking to my to my Western folk, and I'm trying to convince them that this is worthwhile. But it doesn't, it doesn't meet the the criteria. And so, I said, well, like, this is like someone needs to do this right. I was pushing people to like take it seriously.

Megan Benay

Yeah.

Darriel Harris

And people were interested in it, but nobody wanted to take it on, right. Everyone has their has their own passion, their own thing that they're funded for. No one wants to take on like this religious person’s like pet project, right?

Megan Benay

Oh, but you got this like this, this golden offer. You're like, hey, I have seen this work. This works. I feel like a lot, I'm in education, but I can imagine in a lot of social sciences, especially when folks are working in communities, you might have a community-based practice that is really working. But, if you want to get funding, you have to do some kind of, there needs to be some kind of, you know, IRB approved evaluation that, you know, then there's something published that says, academia says this works.

Darriel Harris

It's okay. Says this works. Now you're validated. You gotta get out with it.

Megan Benay

So now right now it works. Now it really works. So, what did you do? How did you—so obviously somewhere between you having this, you're in Sudan, you're like, hey, I've got this magic that works. And then there was a and there was a war, and then, now you're here, so you got funding somehow.

Darriel Harris

So so what I what I did was. So, I working at the Baltimore of Food and Faith project, and then, you know, I knew about this method, and so we weren't really doing nutrition at the time. But everyone wanted us to do nutrition. And so, I said, okay, well, fine. Well, you know I'll I'll come up with a curriculum that's like nutrition-based that uses like Biblical passages. So, I'm a I'm a pastor, right. I'm a I'm an ordained minister.

Megan Benay

Oh! That’s awesome!

Darriel Harris

Yeah, and so, this is kind of like something that I'm I'm comfortable doing. I wouldn't do this for if, like Hindus or Muslims, or but for Christians, I can do it because I'm an ordained Christian minister. So, I said, okay for churches, I'm I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable doing it.

Megan Benay

Alright.

Darriel Harris

And and so I came up with a curriculum, and so we used it, right. So, Bob knew about. So, Bob Lawrence, now back to the fellowship, like he knew about the curriculum. And then, when I realized that, like even though it and it was being effective then, but it wasn't, it's still not validated. And so, when I realized that it needed to that it needed to be validated, I said, you know, maybe I should study, and and I'm here at Hopkins. And it just so happens that Hopkins has this like wonderful Health Education concentration.

Megan Benay

Oh, you're like fine, I'll do health. It's not what I really want. But now I'm gonna get a doctorate in it.

Darriel Harris

Yeah, well, I'm I'm I'm not saying kinda. Kinda. Yes, kinda kinda. Kinda. It wasn't like I set off to say I'm gonna get, I'm gonna be a PhD in public health, or I'm gonna you know, do this. It was that I had a methodology that I thought was effective, or that I experienced that was effective. And so, it was real. The effect the effectiveness was real to me. I wanted to spread it, but I wasn't. I was. I was—there was hurdles to spreading it, because it wasn't scientifically valid. And here I am at this like number one institution in America for public health, and they happen to have a health education program. And they happen to be looking for students all the time, right? 

Megan Benay

Yes, they are.

Darriel Harris

So, I said, well, this is like a golden opportunity, right. This is magic. And so, I I talked to, you know I talked to Bob Laurence about it, and you know he gave me some good advice, and then I wrote up my you know, I told him about the story I told him a little bit about the story of South Sudan, and so forth, and I think you know he he got it. But then, when I wrote up my my application that like gosh, my vocabulary is like really off today. But that that letter you write when you want to apply that like kind of introducing yourself.

Megan Benay

Letter of intent?

Darriel Harris

Letter of intent or like your your application letter, right, when you say like, this is why you're you're applying. And this is why you're applying. And this is why you deserve an opportunity to study. That thing you have to send in, right? So, I wrote it up, right. And so, before I sent it, I feel like I sent it to him for, like some advice, or whatever and he loved it right. Like I was really I really went into the I really went into like full swing as to like what I was doing, and so forth, and he really he he loved it. He was like, really supportive, and he wrote like a great letter recommendation, and so forth. So, I got into the program, which meant I had to resign from the Baltimore Food and Faith Project, right. But no hard feelings.

Megan Benay

No hard feelings. So, you had to leave the thing you were doing that you loved, but that maybe wouldn't be sustainable because you needed this scientific credential, or you needed some some evidence base to say it's working. And so, you're like all right, I'm gonna go. Fine. I'll go be the scientist then. Nobody else is going to do it. I'll do it. So, you go. And now you're at Johns Hopkins studying, and you had to leave. Did you intend on going back? 

Darriel Harris

I think it was in the back of my mind. Yeah, I'm kind of like married to Baltimore.

Megan Benay

Okay, are you? Are you from Baltimore?

Darriel Harris

I'm from Maryland. I grew up near BWI Airport, so 21144, that's my, that's where I grew up. So, I used to say I was from Baltimore, until I actually moved to Baltimore, and I realized that like I am not from Baltimore. This is I'm 12 miles outside, but it’s a world of difference. 

Megan Benay

Yeah.

Darriel Harris

I learned that in undergrad when I was 18. Yeah, I went to school at Morgan as an undergrad, but…

Megan Benay

So, in the back of your mind you knew you thought maybe I'll maybe I'll come back to this.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, I was like maybe I'll come back. I'll I'll be in Baltimore.

Megan Benay

How long? How long was your program?

Darriel Harris 

So, the program I ended up being like a Brown scholar, right? Which was like one of the top scholars at the time, fellowships at the time, so I was like I was really fortunate.

Megan Benay

Yeah.

Darriel Harris 

Everything is like falling in line, right? This is like, it's too good to be true.

Megan Benay

Oh, I'm sure I'm sure you had something to do with it.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, I'm sure. I mean I was. I was. I was a good candidate, you know. I studied hard for the GRE. I had a good story. I wanted to do work in Baltimore. It was, it was. It was great, and so the Brown scholarship wants to wanted to fund people who want to do work in Baltimore. So, it really, it really, aligned. I didn't even know about it when I applied, right. I just applied. It just so happened it was like that. It's great.

Megan Benay

Right.

Darriel Harris 

It's great. Anyway, so so, yeah, I wanted to be in Baltimore. So, I want to, I really want to, I wanted to come back to Hopkins, but I wasn't sure what it was look like.

Megan Benay

Okay.

Darriel Harris 

And so, while I was a student, I continued to work at the Center for a Livable Future. I was like a RA or a TA. I worked a lot with Ann Palmer and doing things with food policy councils, and I consulted with the—we transitioned the Baltimore Food and Faith Project to another to there was a lady, Adrian Mosley, who worked out of the hospital. And she was doing a lot of community engagement. And so, we translate, we, we transferred some of the programming to her. And she kind of ran with it, and so I was. I was. I was helping her from time to time and then I started doing this work with food policy councils with Anne Palmer, and doing just like one-off stuff at the Center. So, I stayed at the Center and I was in, I was in the program for 5 years. I think I was, ended up being I I needed an extra year, and so I became a CLF Learner Fellow.

Megan Benay

Okay, you just had fellow tagged to you the whole your whole career. 

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, fellow means funding.

Megan Benay

Oh, I'm a fellow, too, actually. So, I get funding right.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fellow means funding, right? This school's expensive. This school’s expensive.

Megan Benay

School is expensive. So so you were able to get a scholarship, and maybe we can come back to if you have any other advice for folks such as myself, who are not actual fellows. I can't actually just tag the word fellow to my name and be a fellow, and therefore get funding, if you have any advice on that. But so, your what did your what did your dissertation end up being on?

Darriel Harris 

My dissertation ended up being a test of the persuasiveness of faith-based messages to faith-based audiences.

Megan Benay 

Related to public health?

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I'm sorry. I took that for granted. So, it is, you know I've said this like 1,000 times, and now I'm like stumbling over my words. But it it was, so I use, I took, I took, I tested 2 practices. One was advanced care planning, creating an advanced care plan, and one was eating, eating more fruits and vegetables. And I did a test. And so, I did a scenario where I made a video with someone doing an appeal that used science only. And then I did this, 

Megan Benay 

Okay.

Darriel Harris 

You know, so science only appeal is, you know, you people who eat fruits and vegetables have a tendency to live longer. They don't have, they don't suffer from morbidities and hypertension, and obesity. They're better at all these different things. And so, science says you should eat more fruits and vegetables, so be healthy, eat more fruits and vegetables. Essentially, right.? Same thing the doctor tells you every time you go. And then so and then I had another test with it, that same as that message that said, and by the way, the body is a temple of God, and so God wants you to be healthy, so be healthy, right, and so like. And so, those are like the 2, those were like. The standard of faith-based communication is like oftentimes like, put a tag line, put a faith tag line on the back of it and call it faith-based. And so I was, I was asking for something different. I was saying, create a message that really builds on the Biblical narrative or a faith story and intertwines it skillfully with the scientific. The scientific information is intertwined skillfully, such that the 2 are hard to delineate. And so, and so the appeal that I was putting forth sounded something more like in the beginning, God creates humans, and God tells them that fruits and vegetables are to be your substance, your food.

Megan Benay 

Yeah. Just not like that one apple.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, just not that one, right? Just not that one.

Megan Benay 

But all the other ones.

Darriel Harris 

But all the other ones, right. Doesn't say that there's not some bad ones, right? So, I mean even now I'm not saying, go eat those poisonous mushrooms, right. But I am saying that, like fruits and vegetables are better for you.

Megan Benay 

Yes.

Darriel Harris 

But yeah, so I told the story, you know not Adam and Eve, I said, you know God creates humans and and and tells humans to eat fruits and vegetables. And that's supposed to be, you know, that’s supposed to be your meat, or your the the substance of your diet. And then at some point, you know the Bible does allow for some meats, and then eventually all meats, but the body's never recreated, and so, when the body's designed, the body's designed to eat fruits and vegetables, and science tells us that people who eat more fruits and vegetables have a longer life expectancy, and they're less likely to experience hypertension, type 2 diabetes, obesity, all the other things that science tells us, right. And so, and and so the test was to see if the Biblical message intertwined with the scientific data was more persuasive.

Megan Benay 

And was it?

Darriel Harris 

Well, it was Covid, and I couldn't. I wanted to do it inside of a church, right. I wanted to do it inside of Baltimore area churches, and to really do a test and to do like a quality do a quantitative analysis and a qualitative analysis and put them all together. I ended up doing it using like an Internet survey with a general audience. And so, and so the persuasiveness ended up being the same. The same same matter of persuasiveness. But what we found is that, one you didn't lose any persuasiveness by using by interfusing the the faith language, right? And so, you're not doing any harm.

Megan Benay 

Yeah.

Darriel Harris 

But two, we also found it is a different pathway to persuasion, right? So, the scientific pathway to persuasion was more like a logic, it’s like a logic pathway which would one would suspect, and then the the faith pathway to persuasion was parallel, but it was mostly based on like, a belief and it was like obedience and a reverence for God, or for religion, or for a religious institution, right? And so by by having the messages, by hearing the message. So, if I, if I hear the scientific-based message over and over again, it is as if I'm hearing it once. If I hear the scientific message, which I'm definitely gonna hear if I'm in America somewhere, and I hear the faith-based message, it's like, it's as if I'm hearing it twice now, because the pathway to persuasion is is parallel pathways right, and they're both telling me to do the same thing.

Megan Benay 

Okay, I could probably ask you a 1 million questions about this, because I'm I'm working on my doctoral research right now. But but I am, I'm gonna pivot us a tiny bit and ask, so, okay, so you finish, so you finish your degree, and then and then you go back and you become. And you're like I just love being a fellow so much, I—did you make up this fellowship? Did Bob come up with it? Like, how?

Darriel Harris 

Well, Bob, by the time the fellowship came Bob had retired, 

Megan Benay 

Okay.

Darriel Harris 

And so, we had, there was new leadership at the center, but the center had been working on some way to kind of like to like honor, Bob. I think they had been fundraising. This is all happening like this happened in the background. I don't even know about it, right? I'm just. I'm just. I'm just studying and writing my dissertation. I don't know about this stuff. But but, as you know, you know, I had been in contact, I had been working at CLF, and so we had been in contact talking about possibilities upon graduation. And then, at the time when I finish, this fellowship was really, it was like ready to be filled with someone.

Megan Benay 

Oh, so it wasn't created for you. It I mean, or was it like not created for you? 

Darriel Harris 

Well, it was, it's it's it's it's an endowed fellowship. So, it's created for the Center and to better, you know, to to further the the objectives of the Center.

Megan Benay 

You just happened to be perfect for it.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, I just happen to be a great fit. And it happened I happened to graduate right when they were looking for an inaugural fellow. And I had this history with CLF. And my trajectory is in line with what with CLF goals, and so it just. It was a great fit. It was a great fit.

Megan Benay 

So, let's say you're you know, a a Johns Hopkins student right now. You're coming up, you know, you're you're gonna be graduating soon, but you don't know of a of a center like you had contact with that happened to be creating the most perfect job for you ever. And then, you know, you just have it all just happened to work. Do you have any advice for if if there are a lot, if there's, you know, students who want to want to stay at Johns Hopkins, they want to work at Johns Hopkins, but they don't currently have an inroad like you may have had. Do you have any advice for what we should do?

Darriel Harris 

Yes, I. My advice would be to. So, people people at Hopkins and other institutions they create like they're always looking for eager people who are willing to like write about something that they're passionate about, willing to do this. You know, now, once you graduate, you're skilled, right? Like you, you guys have a skill in something, and you're probably well rounded. You're able to write. And so that type of capacity is always in need. And so, I think what I would advise the student to do is to articulate their passion and their capacities as widely as possible. And so, you know, if you have, if you know, if you have a teacher that is a professor that’s into the things that you're into I would talk to that professor about that. If you are, if you have a professor, or there's some center that does something that's adjacent in some way to what you like to do, I would articulate that, and the more you articulate and demonstrate your passion and your abilities, the more you'll find people say, hey, I wish I had someone like that on my team. 

Megan Benay 

So, there's no harm in reaching out like if you even if you're not currently working with that center, there's no harm in reaching out and saying like, hey, I'm graduating soon, and here are all the things I'm interested in and passionate about. I'm a good hard worker and know how to write. Hire me?

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, I mean, yes, you can do it that way if you if you're early in like, if you're if you're graduating in May, then you need to like, now you really need to be direct, right? So, you so you could say just like that, hire me. I'm looking for a job. But if you're if you're early on, if you're earlier on, you have more years, then then you're the the position is more or less like I'm interested in this. Is there is there a way that we can collaborate on something? Is there a way that I can learn from you? Is there a way that I can you know I can assist with something that you're doing?

Megan Benay 

Oh, okay.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, so I mean I worked with so many centers. I mean I worked with the center of health disparities. I worked with the Center for a Livable Future. I worked with, there's a center on qualitative research. I didn't, I didn't work with them per se, but I I was in regular conversation with them. Health policy. I mean, I was working with all different kinds of people just to like learn and grow. And and through that people learned about me.

And did you do that in addition? I'm in a little bit of a non-traditional program, so forgive me if this is basic, but you were doing that in addition to doing like your normal course of study, your regular coursework?

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, I mean, the course work is just there to give you a foundation, right? Like, just so you have some basic skills. But outside of those basic skills, you need to like find a place to exercise it. And so, the centers throughout the United States—not even just. I did a lot of work with the poverty and poverty and inequity research lab. They're based out of the school. I'm not sure what school it is, but there's out of the sociology department, and so I worked with them once about a summer and a half, and I I worked with them after that, you know, on and off a little while. Yeah, I mean, I learned that I learned so much from them.

Megan Benay 

That's really good advice. How did you find? How did you find them to begin with?

Darriel Harris 

I took a class from—Kathy Eden did a lecture. So, there’s lectures all over, all around the campus all the time, and so a lady named Kathy Eden did a lecture. The topic was about $2 a day, or something like that. I was interested in it. And so, she had just written a book, and so I go to the lecture, and I was really enthralled by a lot of things she said. So, I look her up. She’s teaching a class at 8 o'clock in the morning, starting this next term, or whatever. So, I took the class, right. So, while I'm in the class, I get to know her. And she starts talking about they're looking for students who can do some research over the summer, and I'm looking for opportunity over the summer.

Megan Benay 

Yeah.

Darriel Harris 

And so, it worked out.

Megan Benay 

That's that's really good advice and something I think a lot of us, you know, forget that you can, you know you can make those personal connections, and then then you can ask, you know, do you need help? I'm available to help.

Darriel Harris 

Yeah, and in in the academic world the people who are, you know, like Kathy Eden was a what was she? A distinguished professor. I mean she had papers. She had things coming out the wazoo, right? Like she's looking for people to to hand things off to, and so and and this is the case that I found with most professors. They're looking for students to like hand things off to and say, hey, you do this, and you do that. They'll show you how to do some things, and they'll talk to you about it, and then they'll give you an opportunity to really like lead and to play pivotal roles. That's kind of the business.

Megan Benay 

Okay, so so you graduated. Now, now, you're Mr. Science. So, what's next? Or I mean, are you gonna prove the validity of your of your program?

Darriel Harris 

So, I need to publish the papers, because I mean I I did the test. I've I've I didn't prove it to the extent. I wanted to say that my method, my new pedagogy, was better.

Megan Benay 

Yeah.

Darriel Harris 

I didn't say that, but I did say that my pedagogy was valuable, and so it's worthwhile. So, I need to publish it.

Megan Benay 

Okay.

Darriel Harris 

And so, I'm hoping that when I publish it you know, it's kinda take a life of his own. I still wanna stay in that, I do wanna stay in that health education realm, particularly with churches. But then I'm also developing this like parallel food systems, food governance kind of expertise that I wanna, I want to dive into more.

Megan Benay 

And do you think you'll stay in Baltimore for the rest of your career? Or do you think like 10 years from now you'll be somewhere else?

Darriel Harris 

I mean, that's that's that's hard to say. Rest of my career, the rest of my life, like I don't know. For now, I would like to be in Baltimore, but you know I'm open to. I'm open. I'm open to opportunity as it comes. But I I would I would like, my dream is to be in Baltimore, but if I have to move to Philadelphia or Boston, or some other place to be effective.

Megan Benay 

New York City.

Darriel Harris 

Where?

Megan Benay 

New York City. 

Darriel Harris 

New York City. I don't know. How much they gonna pay me? New York City. I mean, if you're not making crazy money, you're like impoverished in New York City.

Megan Benay 

Or you move outside the city like I did. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Before we wrap up because I know we're at time, we have to know what inspires you right now?

Darriel Harris 

Right now, what inspires me like if I'm 100% honest, I will have to say I have to say race relations as it as it as it gets demonstrated in so many things, whether it be police brutality, whether it be the makeup of a of neighborhood design, people of color in farming, people of color their interaction with the food system.

Megan Benay 

Yeah.

Darriel Harris 

Like describing those inequities and ultimately figuring out resolutions for those inequities is really where a lot of my imagination goes right now.

Megan Benay 

Well, thank you for keeping your imagination there, because our whole, our whole country and world needs needs focus on those issues.  And you inspire me.

Darriel Harris 

Thank you.

Megan Benay 

You inspire me, and your words inspire me, and folks who are doing the kind of work that you are doing is, is, might I say God's work?

Darriel Harris 

Hey maybe!