Dr. Jackie Flanagan, PhD in Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry | Partner at Bain & Company

In this episode, we discuss what drew Jackie to the Biochemistry, Cellular and Molecular Biology doctoral program at Johns Hopkins, how taking a step back and assessing her personal and professional values and priorities helped her navigate the decision to pivot out of academia and into consulting, and her take on the ways a PhD prepares you to be a successful consultant as well as the major differences between consulting and academia.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Jackie and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

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Lois Dankwa

Hi. I'm co-host Lois Dankwa and this is the 100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Jackie Flanagan, PhD in biophysics and biophysical chemistry and current partner at Bain and Company. Hi, Jackie.

Jackie Flanagan

Hi, Lois. Great to meet you and excited to be here.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah. How are you today?

Jackie Flanagan

I am doing great; hopeful of that spring will come soon but doing well this morning.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it's great. It's great to be looking forward to spring. That's what I'll say. Well, I'm glad that you're here today and excited to dive in and learn more about your experiences. And I want to start by hearing a little bit about what made you want to pursue a PhD in biophysics and biophysical chemistry, but then also just learn a little bit more about your doctoral work at Hopkins in general.

Jackie Flanagan

Great. Yeah, it feels like so long ago now. But it wasn't. It wasn't that long ago, so I was an undergraduate chemistry major at Georgetown University and starting my sophomore year I fell in love with bench research. I worked in an incredibly interesting antimalarial Drug Resistance Lab and found no greater joy than being in lab and investigating questions with a really cool cast of graduate students and postdocs. And so, I had pretty narrow narrow glasses when I was finishing up my undergraduate degree, and it was it was only a PhD. That was what I was so excited to have the opportunity to do, and I I looked a lot of different places and I immediately fell in love with Hopkins, the graduate students, the professors, the way the program was structured, shout out to the BCMB program, which is a really incredible broad, multi-disciplinary training where then you can go deep in a specific topic area, if you if you have an interest, so was just really inspired by the scientific process and scientists and and I still am today.

Lois Dankwa

I love that. Go ahead.

Jackie Flanagan

To your second question on kind of what the PhD was like, I'm happy to share a little bit of that journey, but feel free to course correct me if you want to go anywhere different.

Lois Dankwa

No, please share.

Jackie Flanagan

Yeah. So, I joined with really a wide aperture of what I thought was interesting and so really that was why the BCMB program was right for me and enjoyed a broad range of rotations for my first year and ended up in a in a lab that I wouldn't have predicted going in in the biophysics department. The lab was run by Professor Daniel Leahy. He has since left Hopkins for a really cool opportunity down in Texas. But a lab that truly inspired me from its for its ability to link the kind of broad questions on how really exciting biologic drugs work in our body to the very specific basic science question of what is the 3D picture of how those drugs interact with those receptors in the body and what is the, you know, biochemistry behind that? So, there was something about those bigger medical questions being answered in a very specific, clear, scientific way that this lab focused on that really inspired me. So, I joined that lab and I had you know, a really a really interesting and fun three or four years going deep on some of those those basic science questions. But also, being able to step back and say, you know, how does this relate to the either human health or disease aspects that that specific question is linked to?

Lois Dankwa

I love that you started by sharing how it was just your deep passion for kind of practicing science and learning about different scientific processes as it relates to kind of bio and chemistry and all of that. And you, you found your people to help you grow more, it sounds like.

Jackie Flanagan

Yeah, there was a great network, both you know the leader of our program at the time, which was Carolyn Machamer, who's just incredibly inspirational person. And then those I met in my lab, Dan Leahy and then the postdocs and grad students I worked with, it was just a really tremendous five years and I'm I'm very grateful to this day.

Lois Dankwa

That's really good to hear. So, I'm curious then. Well, it's a two-part question. So, I'm curious then how you viewed like what you wanted to do after your doctorate program, but then also how maybe having that community that sounds like it was influential, how did that also kind of guide what you were thinking about in terms of next steps?

Jackie Flanagan

Yeah, I would, I would say looking back, the path I'm on now is not what I would have predicted during my PhD. So, I was and and still am a huge advocate for basic science research, and I see such importance in what's being done there and so I would say during the course of my PhD, I was all in on the academic path and it was only near the end really, that I began to step back and think about some more personal questions in my life of how how I'd envision my like life more broadly, which is, I think, a really important question to be along with my professional aspirations. And I was cognizant that pursuing the academic path may have come with some trade-offs on where I live, what types of jobs I get, you know how I in the future balance a life and I I knew I wanted to be a working mother. And so, I I began to ask questions of are there other careers that you know don't have as many potential kind of variables that would would disrupt kind of the personal life I was envisioning and stumbled upon this thing called consulting. Had some friends, I think they were friends I took the bus with to work that were applying. I was way behind and I'm I'm super honest about that and I applied. And as part of applications to consulting you do something called a case interview, which is really like helping the interviewer solve a business problem in a structured way. And it turned out I loved those conversations. I was really enamored by these business questions, whether or not they link to science. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and it just it hooked me and and I think I could say the rest was was history. To the second part of your question, I was really lucky to have just a very supportive culture that if and when I shared that I was going to pursue a path other than academia, all I felt as I got was a lot of support. People wanting to make sure I was confident in that decision, right? Because if you train as a scientist and make what is, you know, considered a relatively big career departure, you want to make sure that's the right one. But I knew two things. I knew that these people were very supportive and I also knew if I had made the wrong decision, I could come back to the lab to academics to do a postdoc, so I was I was comfortable that while the decision itself was a big departure, I wasn't limiting my options just yet. And I and I could I could, could have seen a return to academia if that was appropriate.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's such a good point that remembering kind of what I guess safety, safety nets are like kind of support systems that you have. But I also love that you mention the the fact that you're you're on the track that you didn't plan for yourself and I think that's often a common experience where you can ask people years in their career like ohh my gosh, how exactly did you get there? And it's like I have no idea. I'm just here now and it's such an interesting experience to have that happen.

Jackie Flanagan

And it's funny. I think now I can see the various steps I took coming full circle and like things linked together in ways that when I had first made the departure, it was hard to understand the linkage and now stepping back about 8 years removed from academia, I can I can see how it all came together. And is still coming together, right, my career is is young in ways that start to make sense, so I'm I'm grateful to have that perspective, even if in the moment when I made the switch it felt like puzzle pieces that didn't really fully link together at the moment. 

Lois Dankwa

Oh yeah, I certainly understand that. I'm curious then I'm sure there are tons of different people who are considering kind of different working in different sectors and whether it's working in academia or and and consulting after whatever like what was what in your earlier moments what was that shift or what were the differences like and how did you adapt?

Jackie Flanagan

You know, I think there's a few things that come to mind. Probably the first one for me was thinking about a broad range of topics and questions versus the what what becomes a very narrow focus in a PhD. So, I deliberately chose a consulting firm where we have a generalist approach. I was going to be asked to solve problems on a team in all different industries and I was I was darn excited for that. But I will say there is a little bit of an emotional journey to acknowledge that that, like beautiful, kind of almost selfish aspect of academia when you're just thinking about one thing in such detail, that that part of my career was gone, at least in that moment in time. So, I had to adjust to, you know, thinking about industries like consumer products, aerospace and defense, and also pharma, Med tech and other life sciences. So that was one. I think the second one was consulting is a team sport and I certainly thought I knew what being on a team was in academia. There were things I did that, you know, had aspects of team, but we truly solved problems you know, in a team environment where you build on each other, you know within hours versus within days or weeks or months as may happen in science experiments that just certainly take longer. And so, I I at first you know was tending to be an individual contributor, but then once I embraced this idea of a team became addicting and it's it's it's one of the reasons I'm I'm certainly still here. And then the third thing deadlines are different, right? The business world deadlines can be much more real than perhaps the deadlines we self impose on ourselves in academia. So those three things were transitions for me, but what I was so grateful for throughout that transition and and honestly the transition went very well, is there was such a unique way that I was able to bring my problem-solving skills that I got truly from my PhD and help answer these business questions. And so, I always felt very much able to contribute to the questions being asked even as I adjusted to some of those things that I just mentioned.

Lois Dankwa

Oh, that's interesting. I'd love to hear more about how. So, it's it's it's cool to hear how the kind of the same skills and strengths you were able to apply in a different setting just kind of learn how they worked differently, but then kind of your last note about problem-solving realizing like feeling empowered in your ability to be able to use those things that you'd basically honed in on and strengthened more. I'd love to hear how you saw yourself like able to do that.

Jackie Flanagan

Yeah, yeah, it's. I probably didn't think enough about it in advance to see if I was going to be able to contribute, but I trusted the interview process. I was like if they want me, there's something I can offer. But luckily very quickly you could take any problem and and something about being a PhD scientist is how you structure your thought process and answer and have a hypothesis that's driving driving the answer throughout and even if the problem was not a scientific experiment and it nearly always isn't, though sometimes I am pretty deep on clinical trials in my current job, but I was able to bring that structured thinking, bring that ability to become an expert, so I I can't imagine a better training ground to become an expert than a PhD, and in the types of projects we do at my company, you need to become an expert, even in a random place, even in three weeks. And so that ability to become an expert once you have your hypothesis and structure, I think was second to none. And then the third thing is, you know, in so many different PhDs, whether science or not, so, a broad range you are asked to take a discerning view of data and research and pressure test it and that's what you need to do in this job as well. So, all of those things contributed to even if it was a problem I had never thought about before, I was able to bring those skills on the first day. Those skills have obviously gotten better as my career here has evolved but I truly believe that PhDs are our top-notch problem solvers, and so whatever career makes sense for someone, you have those skills to bring with you and it's and it's pretty darn awesome.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's that's exciting and always encouraging to hear. So, I something that you mentioned also when you were looking back on what made you consider professional routes beyond academia, you also mentioned kind of the role of just envisioning the life that you wanted for yourself and taking a moment to think about that more. And I think that for a lot of people pursuing doctorates it's just that's just something you start to think about. It's like, OK, well, I worked so hard to get to this moment. But then what does the rest of my life look like? And I'm curious if you could talk more about that and how you balance different thoughts and things that you wanted for yourself and ultimately landed on going, yeah, I feel good about switching to switching out of academia.

Jackie Flanagan

Yeah, and and they were nebulous thoughts at the time, but they I look back the the seeds of what I was thinking then have really, you know, come to fruition and are are things that are important parts of my life now. So, one thing and I'm super honest about this, is my family's from outside of Philly and I never wanted to be too far from them. And I realized in academia, while there are tremendous academic jobs in that area, I might have had to make choices based on how competitive the job market was to go to other regions of the country. And I just, I just didn't want that to be a variable, so I wanted to be very purposeful of geography. And getting a job at a company in a specific city allows that. The second thing was, and this was very personal to me, I don't think this is necessarily everyone's story as a PhD of, I wanted to make sure my weekends were fully mine and there's something beautiful about science and research that you can keep things going on the weekends. You don't have to, but you can. And I certainly did that in my PhD. And I just wanted something that had a little bit more boundaries. So, the business world often has more Monday-Friday boundaries. I always joke that cells don't necessarily know it's the weekend. And so that was a really healthy thing that I had in the back of my mind. Though it probably wasn't the biggest driver. And then I think the third thing was, you know, I knew I wanted to be a working mother, but to do that, I knew that, you know, the type of career I wanted needed to kind of really have holistic support for what it's like to be a working mother and the the benefits you need to do so. And I'm not saying those didn't exist in academia, and I think they do. And I suspect they're getting better. I saw in the companies that I was considering just a true demonstration of how they will support you through motherhood, and it's coming to fruition. I have a 18-month-old and I have a second—knock on wood—on the way due in the next month or so, and I've been able to achieve a work life balance that I'm really grateful for because for me I need to be able to do both and there are flex options in my career and just benefits and checks and balances that have enabled me to really thrive in both parts of my life, and I'm really grateful for that.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's it's really nice to hear kind of how you got to this moment and I think it's such a good reminder to just to think about like knowing yourself and really rather than feeling pressured by whatever direction your professors or your mentors or just anyone around you just knowing, ok, well, what are the things that I prioritize or my non negotiables, right? And how do I continue to make choices with intent?

Jackie Flanagan

I totally agree and those factors will be so different. Like mine are very personal to me and so as long as folks take a step back and think about what would it mean to thrive in my own life? I think it's a really helpful framework to guide your next step or the step after that, right? Don't worry if you make a step that feels like you're not thriving, there's there's opportunities to pivot.

Lois Dankwa

Right, exactly. So, I have two more questions for you. And the 1st, I'm curious what advice you would have for someone who's interested in a career that looks like yours, whether it's them being a consultant or whether it's them or being at a consulting firm or whether it's them kind of switching out of academia into a completely different sector?

Jackie Flanagan

I would say first, you know, take the time to talk to people in those various careers that you think might be interesting because it's as much of you, you know, getting successfully through an interview process along with you thinking if this is the right fit for for yourself, and so I really want people to understand what the career is like because there are trade-offs and the worst thing it could be is someone you know makes a decision without truly knowing what the job is like. So, make sure to connect with people and I think there are really good opportunities to do so in consulting. I think all the firms do a great job of outreach to to students at places like Hopkins, but you know, have conversations ask what work life balance is like, ask what their day-to-day job is like because I want to make dure, y'all like what what we do in consulting or whatever career you're considering, so that would be one. I think more specific advice to consulting is we are solving really strategic problems for executives at big companies and in some small companies too. But you know businesses that you'll see in in various periodicals as they face big challenges, whether it's resetting their strategy, whether it's prioritizing assets in their pipeline, whether it is a merger or integration, and so begin to you know, read those stories, those business stories, and see if they're exciting to you, because if if they are, if you find like it's so interesting to see how the executive in the background might have solved this, I have a gut feeling you might like consulting because those are the types of questions we're helping our clients solve or we're solving internally. And so, take the time to get exposed to those type of questions. And it's a very good litmus test. And then there's a whole host of more tactical, you know, guidance and support if you do pursue the consulting process on how to do case interviews and all of the various firms have those types of resources, whether online or in various programs they offer. So, you know that that use that as your guide. I won't go very in depth into that because I know those resources are really ready readily available from the various companies.

Lois Dankwa

You got it. That's that's great to hear and great advice. So as my last question, I am curious what inspires you right now?

Jackie Flanagan

So many things. #1 the people who are kind of in my crew and a lot of those are my own mentees and advisees, many of which are women. And so, I I just have this network of business women who are moving up in their careers and charting their personal lives, and I have the pleasure to have discussions with them on what projects they pick, what career decisions they make, you know how their personal life considerations play out, and it's just it's a very full kind of part of my job along with solving my clients’ business problems. So, number one is is is the is the mentees and Advisees I have the pleasure of guiding on their journey and learning from them. I think #2 is the type of work I get to do right now. So, I do a lot of work in R&D for pharma and other life sciences companies, and it's a really cool way my job has come full circle. So, I I talked about how I joined the lab that was answering very basic science questions that linked to bigger questions that pharma eas pursuing and now I'm kind of helping pharma think through what those bigger questions are based on some of the scientific data that's out there along with a whole host of other data and I just feel really grateful to to be at that part of my career where I can help, you know, see molecules through the pipeline and then get to patients. So that's pretty cool. And then the third thing and and certainly the most important thing is, I've got a growing family. I have an 18-month-old who every day is different and every day comes with a new word and he's saying the word baby and we're all really excited, yet we have no idea really what life will be like in the next month or so. And so, I am deeply grateful for the role my family plays in helping me thrive, keeping me grounded, keeping life really, really funny and so, yeah, I'm just surrounded by a lot of gratitude right now.

Lois Dankwa

Ohh that's so wonderful to hear. And it's right it's both nice to see things come full circle, whether it's kind of research things or just things in your personal life and kind of enjoying the uncertainty of things, knowing that there's a lot you can be excited about. Jackie, it's been so wonderful chatting with you today and I want to thank you so much for just sharing a little bit about yourself, your experiences, and what got you to this moment today.

Jackie Flanagan

Thank you, Lois. Ditto, it's it's been tremendous and good luck in your own career and and I'm sure it'll be a tremendous journey.