Dr. Saskia Maria van Genugten, PhD in European Studies | Associate Director at MacroScope Strategies

In this episode, we discuss what led Saskia to pursue a master’s and doctoral degree in European Studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, the skills she learned from her diverse professional experiences from bartending to foreign affairs, policy, consulting, and government advisory, and her advice for pursuing both academic and practical experiences during your doctoral studies.

Hosted by Brooklyn Arroyo

To connect with Saskia and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Brooklyn Arroyo

Hello, I am co-host Brooklyn Arroyo and this is the 100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that inspire where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from the Johns Hopkins University. Today we're joined by Saskia Maria van Genugten PhD in European studies. Welcome Saskia.

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Hi, thank you. Hi Brooklyn.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So today first I'm just going to have you tell us about how you got into European studies, and I believe you finished your PhD in 2012, so please just introduce us with some of your background.

Saskia Maria van Genugten

All right, so I actually I also did my masters at SAIS, Johns Hopkins, so I probably first tell a little bit about how I got into there. I honestly, I had never heard of SAIS, which is terrible if I think back, like Oh my god, how is it possible I didn't hear about SAIS? I studied in the Netherlands. I did first a bachelor degree in Italian literature. Then I was actually I was done studying and I worked in a bar for a year. Then I came back to study for Masters and in the Netherlands. I studied the history of international relations. For that Masters I had to do an internship, and so that internship was at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Netherlands. And there I met a person who actually went to SAIS, and he was very active. And so, when basically the question came like OK, what am I going to do after this master’s? He looked at me and he was like: Look, I think you should still go and do a masters aboard. You know they could have perhaps never did the exam, so I don't know for sure, but you know the idea was OK, either you join the foreign service or you go do something else, and he was like, OK, let's try. You know why don't you try? So, he wrote me a letter of recommendation. I looked up SAIS, I Googled it, and I did the application. And then I got in. And initially the idea was really to just stay for a year in Bologna. I did the Bologna year with the idea, OK, fine, you know maybe then I'm ready like I can join the Foreign Office in the Netherlands. And then after a year I really enjoyed it and obviously like you know with all students, and I had some good grades as well. So, I was able to also go to DC for the second year. Then I was in DC and then I basically sort of, you know, got into the OK, what am I going to di? Am I going to work for the World Bank or do I want to stay in the US? And we're still going to go back to the Foreign Office. I mean not, really, because by that time I think that idea had sort of, you know, had disappeared in my mind. And then I guess I get to apply for the for the PhD in European Studies I got in and so I basically I just went straight for my masters into a PhD.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Wow, that is one journey you know that's not necessarily linear. I feel like oftentimes people assume that especially those coming to Hopkins that they went straight undergrad Masters, PhD or some variation of that.

Saskia Maria van Genugten

I think very little of my study past and my career has been linear to be honest.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Do you feel that not having that linear process with that linear journey has helped you to develop the person that you are today or become the professional that you are today?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Uh, yeah, I would say yes, uh, both personally as well as, uh, professionally. I mean, you know there's good things and there's bad things about it, right? I mean doing a quite a linear journey or sort of, you know, hopping from one thing to the other, or at least in the beginning it might look like you're hopping from one thing to the other. Until things kind of come together, I mean. So, for example, after the PhD, I guess it was also not the typical PhD that really was, you know, 100% dedicated to academia, so I never had this sort of, I don't know, dream of being a professor and staying in university life, but I was interested in, you know, in sort of the in-depth study. But also applying it to the real world. So already at the end of my PhD I started working for the center of the Netherlands, and so that was just the policy job, and I really enjoyed kind of that as well. I did that for the last year, yeah, last year before last of my PhD. And after that I actually went into consulting. So, I worked for PwC for a while. I mean it's all a little bit more connected than it's than it sounds right now. I mean, at the at the Senate I was working for the Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defense and Development Corporations are quite, you know, SAIS-y topics and of course you know being from the Netherlands, a lot of what was going on had to do with Europe, so European studies helped at PwC. I was in the government advisory with one of the key projects that I led setting up the diplomatic Academy. So again, I mean there was this this connection. And yeah, in the afternoon I actually stated that that Academy, so that was probably the closest I got to being, you know, back in academia.

Brooklyn Arroyo

And I feel that the work that you're doing now necessarily isn't completely tied with European studies necessarily, you know, did you feel that your PhD then uplifted where you are now?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Yeah, I think it did. So to continue the journey, so, then I was at this Academy which was in Abu Dhabi. I actually we can mix personal into the conversation, so I have been in Abu Dhabi for five years, and I had a baby. And I kind of was pulled back to the Netherlands, thinking OK, now is the time to come back. I took up a job at the Ministry of Defense in the Netherlands, which was in the strategy team, so that sounds a bit great and so I went back to the Netherlands. Did that for three years and you know there was kind of like the strategy part, sort of linked to the to the consulting work I had done, and I think, sort of the, you know, the in-depth knowledge and the PhD helped with kind of, you know, uh, being able to take a step back, uh, from the sort of day-to-day politics and policies that you often have in the ministry. So, in that sense, I think the PhD really helps, maybe not in the straightforward, you know way, and that's the actual topic that I studied during the PhD was super useful. Sometimes it was, but most of the time it wasn't. But the idea of kind of you know, being able to reflect being able to kind of see the bigger picture. Being able to understand like what is, you know, what's just politics and what is structural change or what's the structural, you know, element that you as a Ministry of Defense need to deal with. I think in that sense it's it helped. Yeah, and my current job, I mean my current job, I actually, so I went back to Abu Dhabi, which is where I am right now and I'm working for a company, which is a very small company and it's run by, well, actually, we're yeah, we're good number of SAIS. But it's run by one other SAIS PhD, who also happens to be my husband. And so, we came back here basically tying together. I would say that both the knowledge, both of Europe and of the Middle East that we had gathered, as well as kind of the experience of being in policy, being in academia, and being in consulting. And that's yeah, I think, I mean that's still sort of like the nexus which we operate.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely, so I believe if I heard correctly that you said that you had a year where you were working as a bartender before getting into your masters and then just jumping straight into your PhD. 

Saskia Maria van Genugten

That's right.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Did you have any transition period, where, did you feel that that year made jumping back into academia sort of a stretch for you?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

No, I think it was very good. I'm proud of it. You know, like maybe my parents at the time weren't necessarily proud of it. Uh, but there's a couple of things that, yeah, that's sort of I think for me personally, we're really important. I mean one, you know the understanding that perhaps you like academia. You know, that's sort of OK. I used to work part time as a as a bartender and I really enjoyed that, but that was just, you know, the Saturday job and the Thursday evening job and then all of a sudden, you're you know 5-6 days a week doing this and you kind of realize like OK maybe this is not for life, you know this is one, but not for life. So, I think it's for me regathered the joy of studying. It gave me some time to reconsider what I was studying, and to be very honest I am still very grateful for the job because it really taught me how to work hard. You know, like it's yeah, I think there you learn like I learned to multitask, to be able to do whatever five things at the same time and be it you know, making drinks and counting money and having it chat at the same time. Sounds silly, but you know, in the end it's important. You also learn a lot about people because, especially when it's Monday morning and you know, just the only one there. You're a young girl behind the bar, then you get the most fascinating people telling life stories. And you know you have to listen and interact with them. So, I'm very grateful for the year again. I mean, you know a lot of people would be not so proud about it, but I think.

Brooklyn Arroyo

No, it is. You are completely right that in many ways you probably learn more about people in that one year than some people can in all of academia. Just because you have those real-life experiences and those real people coming in and you were serving them and hearing them out hearing their stories.

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Yeah, trust me. I mean definitely not that the story you know, that the conversations were of a high level academically. It's good field work though. 

Brooklyn Arroyo

After that that year and then you went to your masters and then your PhD and post PhD, did you notice any transition period or any hurdles in going from academia into the fields and into the jobs that you've now worked in?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Uh, yeah, uh, definitely. And I think, uh. I mean the transition towards the policy world was a little less, but I remember when I started at PwC, I mean, you know I was there. I had, yeah, like you know the big, the title in front of me, of my name, but I had zero skills. I'm sorry like zero skills when it came to. So, you know I knew how to do word documents and I kind of knew how to do PowerPoint, but nothing, you know to the level that I have to do and where, I guess I do a lot of, yeah, sort of more of the academic research methodologies. I had to catch up on, uh, you know, more consulting skills. Uh, which come with maybe some more fluffy research tools, but yeah, they're still important, especially in in that field. So, there I definitely felt I was a little bit of a, you know there were like kids that were a lot more junior than me that would have to sort of explain me how to do very basic things on PowerPoint and understand things. At the same time, of course, you know I came with a different skill set, but I was lucky to be hired in consulting. Because I think no one else would, you know, yeah, yeah, like it's a difficult sort of step to take, and I think the skills of the PhD, especially someone who's been doing more of the historical and the archive work with me is not necessarily clear that I would bring anything to the table. It's consulting, but yeah, you know, in the end I mean, you bring different skills; you bring different knowledge. You bring perspective. I think a certain, you know, cut the crap of consulting and be able to go to really OK. What is this about? So, I always felt that my PwC, at least with the clients, brought me a lot of credibility and brought me a lot of sort of, you know, being able to actually understand really the problem that we were trying to solve. And not just do a cookie cutter around. If that makes a little bit of sense.

Brooklyn Arroyo

No, it makes plenty of sense. So, I think that not that you feel this way, but I feel like you would have good advice for someone who has now achieved their PhD. And I think we talk a lot about having that clarity when to reach your PhD and everyone must feel really happy and achieved, but I feel that there is a significant portion of people who have it and almost feel like they don't know how to get out of academia or that their PhD isn't going to be something that can exist in certain jobs. So, what advice would you have for sort of selling yourself in a way with a PhD that you can't see fitting in a certain career? 

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Yeah, I think it. It starts even before you know you finish the PhD and that's actually one of the reasons why I enjoyed the SAIS PhD because. Yes, it was, sort of, you don't have you on the academic side, but it was also heavy on the practical side, and so I did a lot of projects during my PhD, so worked for small consulting jobs. So, try out things would be my advice already during your PhD. You know see whether your advisor, I was lucky with my advisor in that sense, can help you sort of get real work experience while at the you know on the job of the PhD. Uh, I'm not allowed to say this, I think, but don't take it too seriously. The PhD. Take it seriously. But you know, yeah, in the end, sort of say with a smile like, OK, I really enjoy doing this, but most likely no one is going to read all the hundreds of pages that I don't know. And, uh, think very carefully, also, about the topic. I didn't do that, uh, well, I did think about the topic of course, but I didn't sort of do it in in a way that I was linking to hey, what is interesting professionally in four years’ time. So, I think that would be my advice. Just try out things also during the PhD, so don't wait until kind of you know the job is done and start thinking then. Plenty of opportunities, especially if you're in DC. There's always you know, odd policy jobs or other things to do. And see those as important as the you know as getting the PhD done. I'm sure advisors hate what I'm saying, but.

Brooklyn Arroyo

No, it's great advice. I think that that anyone I think many people would be experiencing this and it would be very helpful to know that sometimes it's OK to take a step back and you're not going to gain all of the experiences you need in your career just in your PhD. It's a layered thing and we need more than just that academia side. So, having senses of mentorship, when you started getting into your career and away from academia, who would be your most important or most influential professional mentor that you had and how did they help you?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

So, I have a couple. And I wouldn't, you know, put one above the other because they've all been very important in my own journey. So, for example, when I was at the when I was doing my internship at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, so you know, way back and then I had a boss. She was a lady. And she really like you know she helped. She gave me advice. She really appreciated me, even though of course it was a big age difference here and she really made me feel kind of, you know, in a safe spot and be able to develop, you know. And now, yeah, we're talking about 2006, 2005 even, I'm still in touch with her. You know she became ambassador left and right. I still see her. So that's you know, I think on that policy side and kind of on the professional side, a very important person. For me, academically speaking, I've had two, one in the Netherlands. Also, during my Masters also happens to be a woman who herself was young was. You know, quite early on established as a as a very good professor and also with her, you know she just was open to giving advice. Yeah, it helped out whenever you know whenever she could and also with her still in touch. And then I think even I mean you know like the SAIS my advisor at SAIS. I had a very good relationship with and he was always very supportive, including as I said on, you know during the PhD. Uh, think about ways of kind of getting realized and practical experiences, so I'm also very, very grateful to him, and I would also, yeah, add him to this list you know my top three mentors.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Excellent I think mentorship something has been something that's come up in other interviews too and has been a key part. Do you feel that having that mentorship throughout your career throughout your academic career has been something that really helped you get through your PhD and into where you are now?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

I think so, even though I mean you know these were—it wasn't kind of, you know, established mentor-mentee relationship. It was just people that I happened to meet along the way and we clicked and we stayed in touch so I think it was quite natural. And they definitely helped me. So, for example, you know one of them, one of the ladies like, there's always these little things that you can remember, right? Like pieces of advice. So, before I was doing a PhD, she was telling me this was the young established professor she was telling me. Looks as yeah, you know, you can do whatever you want in life, but the truth is, if you're a woman, you will not be taken, you will not be taken seriously, for one, until you turn 30 and second when you have a PhD. So, I took that at heart and you know, kind of my goal became to have my PhD when I was 30. So, I think they yeah, they're important. And they because, they come naturally, I think, like you know, build up the relations with people that you feel are worth it professionally. That are open for it. Yeah, I mean, and then stay in touch and be yourself. You know, like be able to kind of and I think that is something at least I personally love also to do in the company and with the people I work with, you know, provide that safe environment. I know how much I benefited from it. So yeah, you know, I think it's our, you know, not duty, but it just makes you also a happier person to be able to give that to others.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely and continue the spread of mentorship and the chain of helping other young people, other academics. So in your field now, what are some of like the daily weekly tasks? And did you find that it was surprising to you the work that you did and then versus the work that you thought you were going to do in your career?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

At the moment, yes, I mean I would never have thought that my husband and myself and some others you know, coming from both the PhD SAIS backgrounds quite sort of, you know, interested in yeah in international affairs, but from a think tank/academic perspective, with that we would end up, you know, running a company and you know walking around in suits once in a while and selling people stuff, right? You know business development and so, yeah, totally different than I expected. I think the you know the jobs I had before and the ministry and think like I could have imagined myself doing these things. I would even say that I would have thought like, especially with the job at the ministry, that that would have been my dream job. But I'm actually really enjoying what we're doing and it's yeah, it's very much out of the comfort zone as well. So, you know, we learn new skills every day. So, and I think that is also part of, you know what's in my opinion, sort of you know, drives people to a PhD is also learning, right? Learning new skills. Academia in my opinion has to be about you know, keep learning, so don't sort of this is my PhD and now for the next 30 years I'm going to just sit on his PhD and all this knowledge and I'm just going to, you know, push out papers that are making the same argument over and over again, and some people might like it. That's just not me. So, I like the learning new things, yeah, and anyway, now that sometimes means learning about an industry in the Middle East, understanding what drives companies, understanding you know regulation, understanding the politics behind it, but from a you know investment point of view so very different things.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Wow, yeah, I feel like many of academics just want that constant growth and I feel like that's something that you've really achieved and we can really see throughout your career and your academic career that there was just this constant strive for learning new things as you put it and growing as a person. So, what would if you have any what would your next just phase for your career be?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

Difficult one. So, I definitely want to stay in what I'm doing a little bit longer because I feel I'm only starting to kind of, you know, uh, get the gist of it. But, I think if I you know if I think long term, then I want to still be able to, uh, get back into academia. And you know, with all the experience that I will then have and never as the sole thing to do, so I have tried throughout to at least, you know, keep an affiliation with either think tank or like you know, Policy Institute. So, to keep writing and to keep a little bit sort of, you know, yeah, with one leg, or at least one toe in that world. And my hope is that at some point I will have a little bit more time because you know, and I think we don't have time to discuss all of that. But in the end, I mean the choices that you make and the type of work also relates to you know your personal uh, situation. So, at the moment I have two kids, one is 7 months old. Yeah, good luck. If you want to sort of sit and read the whole book and you know, be concentrated. So I also feel like it's right for this moment in the in here, as well as in personal life. And then when there's a little bit more time and one can sit back, read those books again and sort of, you know, be more calm and I read up on everything that has happened in academia in the last in the past 10 years.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Yeah, definitely having young children would hinder some of your ability to be absorbed in the academia or in anything other than them really. So, our final question we are asking all of our interviewees and that is: What inspires you right now?

Saskia Maria van Genugten

What inspires me right now, uh, at the moment? I don't know if inspired is the right word. That’s OK. I'm sitting here in Abu Dhabi and I see the world change, right, like I see change. It's different from when I was sitting in the Hague where yes of course things are also changing. Especially at the moment. But it is a very different vibe so I am quite inspired at the moment by seeing like this new global politics unfolding and really understanding, OK, how? So still, you know the SAIS thinking like how do these actors within the context that within the systems that they are working in? How do they realign and reposition? So, I think that is at least professionally something that I find extremely interesting, and in that sense, I would say inspiring. Of course, as a matter of two, I also have to say my kids and I find them inspiring in very different ways because they ask—well, not the seven-month-old, but the four-year-old asks the most amazing questions about the world and you know, actually, you learn. Never thought about it that way. Interesting, so I think that's also an inspiration, but it's at a very different level.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Yeah, it's very different, but you know not any less. Sometimes things that come out of a four-year old's mouth will surprise everyone, even no matter what you've learned about her scene. But thank you so much for coming today and being able to speak on the podcast with us. I loved interviewing you and hearing about all of your experience, so thank you, so much Saskia.

Saskia Maria van Genugten

You're very welcome.