Dr. Trevor Ellison, PhD in Health Economics & Health Policy | Cardiothoracic Surgery Director at Genesis Healthcare

In this episode, we discuss what inspired Trevor to pursue both a PhD and an MBA during his medical degree training at Johns Hopkins, his take on the importance of leading by example and centering kindness when working with colleagues, and his advice for those who want to work in the medical field.

Hosted by Brooklyn Arroyo

To connect with Trevor and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Brooklyn Arroyo

Hello, I'm co-host Brooklyn Arroyo and this is 100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Trevor Ellison, PhD in health economics and health policy. Welcome to the PHutures Podcast, and I'm really looking forward to speaking with you today.

Trevor Ellison

Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So just to jump right in, let's talk a little bit about what your educational experience looks like. I know that PhD in itself oversimplifies it a little bit. So, I would love to hear about the experiences you've had and the work you've been doing.

Trevor Ellison

So, the route that I took was on the medical side. So, I went to undergrad and then went to medical school at Johns Hopkins and earned my MD degree, and then wanted to go into surgery. And so, I did a general surgery residency at Johns Hopkins and then did a cardiac fellowship. So, my actual kind of day-to-day life is as a cardiac surgeon, and I practice in Columbus, OH. During my my training, there's there's also an opportunity to do research and my interest was in more clinical research and aligned along the lines of health economics and policy. So, during my general surgery fellowship, I had a 3-year span where I was at the Bloomberg School of Public Health and and studied for my my PhD in Economics and health policy. I actually didn't finish my dissertation and writing up and defending it until I graduated from from my General Surgery Fellowship. But it was three years of school that I took in the middle of my residency there. But yeah, that, that that was it and then had an opportunity one of those years, the fourth year of research, I went overseas over to Cambridge in England and and did some studying there as well.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, did you always know that you wanted to go down the medical path and and get your MD or was that something that came to you in later years? What did that look like for you?

Trevor Ellison

Yeah, it it was was pretty early. You know, I can't really think of what when the exact time was, but I have some I’m someone with disabilities. So you know, we were in the hospital and had met doctors and, you know all of that and and you know, I was always kind of impressed with a profession that, you know, was kind of dedicated to just helping people kind of at their kind of lowest or or worst times. You know, there's nothing kind of more more important than than your health. And you know, there’s lot of people involved, you know, and selling things and which is fantastic, but it's also a group of people who all they do is study. And it's just to meet you and you don't know them. They don't know you, but they're just waiting for the time that you meet them and you need them because your your health is bad, everything's wrong and you're looking for help and, you know, that was kind of very, I thought, you know, special profession or something that I wanted to be a part of and then it just kind of aligned, you know, as you go along in studies, you kind of find what you're interested in. And I was definitely interested in science and biology and anatomy and and Physiology and and and all of that. So those two things kind of combined and they definitely put me down that course. I remember when I was 12 years old, I had asked for a fetal pig dissection kit for Christmas, and that's what I got and spent some hours in the basement doing that. And it came with a Johns Hopkins poster of the heart. So, kind of, you know, even way back then, kind of a little little foreshadowing and you know something that I guess was kind of somewhere in the back working its way through the the whole time.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, there was a little bit of foreshadowing there, predicting you and going into Johns Hopkins and studying there. So, when it comes down to the things that you participated after your academic career, did you maintain the academic setting, you talked about participating in research, but did you want to step more into industry or into other fields and explore those experiences as well?

Trevor Ellison

Well, yeah, I mean I'm I'm interested in, you know, in surgery, we get to help pretty much one person at a time in the operating room. When you do research, you have the opportunity, not that you always do, but you do have the opportunity to affect more people on a broader level. And so, you know those two things together, you know are very attractive. And then when I was at Cambridge, I I earned an MBA at the Judge Business School. And so, from that aspect, I also am interested you know in both from a kind of leadership running an organization aspect of the MBA and also, you know, possibly if opportunity presents itself in terms of, you know, new devices or coming up with you know something new, you know being able to, you know, put that in kind of a business format. So, I'm definitely interested in all of that. You know I graduated about four years ago, so I still feel like, you know, a little bit, you know, trying to feel my way out and and kind of line line everything up and kind of make everything kind of come back together. But you know, I am the head of the department in where I work right now, so being able to, you know, use an MBA from that standpoint, from running department, you know the budget, the our reviews that you know all that sort of stuff is very fulfilling, you know, trying to make that department grow and and expand and become better, but then also doing the research part which you know the I have pictures up on my wall in my office and lots of them are of my my mentors and the people I was able to work with, which always tries try to remind me and keep me honest with, you know, went through all this training, had the benefit of this amazing opportunity and associations at Hopkins, and that I want to remember that I need to kind of keep my keep, you know, keep myself honest and being diligent in the research and and doing what what I should be doing. So, you know on the side, I I still am publishing. I have two papers that are still actually left from my dissertation. I defended it, but the two still need to be published. I've, you know, published another one a couple years ago and working on a couple more research papers. So that's kind of something I also do on the side of of my daily practice when when I get home.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, you mentioned how just graduating several years ago, you are still relatively finding your footing in, in the work that you're doing. Do you feel that your academic experiences have really prepared you for your nonacademic experiences, your work experience? And did it fall short in any areas? Did you have any hiccups when just starting?

Trevor Ellison

I mean, I I feel like I was well prepared. Now whether I carry out that mission well or not, it could be another another matter altogether. But but I do feel like I I was well prepared. I, you know, going through Hopkins, which is just an absolutely, you know, phenomenal institution and just filled with, you know, just amazing amazing people. You know, especially in in surgery you work with so many people and you're always together and you're always, you know, doing the same things together. You you kind of get these voices in your head that in the background all the time and by the time you've gone through, you know, I was training for 17 years at Hopkins, which by the end of there there's lots of voices and you know, going on in your head, and it's drawn from so many people who are just the absolute top, excellent at everything they do, phenomenal examples, you know. And so, then as you go out in the world and start trying to find your footing all those voices are going on in every single situation you see. You can pull on something from somebody who did it amazingly well. You can kind of draw on those experiences and try to help guide you through those experiences. But you know then then when you do it, you know everything's kind of personalized and you kind of try to do it the way that that that you best best see fit. So, I I mean hiccups are, I think there are hiccups in in in everything, and everything we do, you know, is not perfect. And you know, we always try to do it better. But in terms of what I'm able to draw from, I think you know there's definitely no gaps from my standpoint in in the experiences I was able to have.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, I would love to hear more about some of the highlights of experiences of mentorship you've had along the way. I know that for a lot of people finding those interactions and those building those networks are really important. So, what did those look like for you and what advice would you have really on on fostering powerful and influential mentorship relationships?

Trevor Ellison

Yeah, the mentorship is is kind of a big topic in and of itself. You know, there's, I think there's there's planned mentorship and there's kind of accidental mentorship. And, you know, there's been times where people tried to set up mentor programs, whether it's with colleagues or whether it's with, you know, attending things like that and it's always a little bit s little bit hit or miss, but you know, I think as long as you you're doing your work and you're engaged and you're being honest and you know what you're pursuing and just getting your hands dirty and and everything you're doing that you're just going to bump into people along the way. You know, you may tell them someday you're my mentor and they may not have known that. So, I don't know that it's always this very formal sort of thing. But, you know, just as you sit and you observe people and you watch how they act and you watch how they overcome things. You know, it's just it just builds you up in so many ways and then they become, you know, really a mentor and and you develop those relationships and, you know, carry them on past past, you know, your, your, your studies. But you know it's not always a very deliberate thing. But but, you know, for for example, I mean just just seeing, you know, some of the people in the cardiac surgery department at Hopkins, there's just been this tradition of these just absolute gentlemen who have been the the chairs of the surgery department. You know, the absolute top of their game. Everybody knows them around the world. You know, they could be jerks. They could do whatever they want, but they are not. They're the absolute, you know, nicest, kindest people. Dr., you know Duke Cameron, Dr. William Baumgartner. Dr. Vincent Gott, just absolute gentlemen and it always just reminds you that no matter where you get to, where you think you are, that that dimension of always being a kind person and always taking time, you know, so unbelievably invaluable. That's also true of I was able to spend a little bit of time at the University of Pennsylvania in Philly with Dr. Joseph Bavaria, another giant in cardiac surgery and one of the most kind people. You know and again, he has he he doesn't have to be because you know he could be whatever he wants. He has the the, you know, the skills, the outcomes, everything to back up him being whatever he wants to be. But he never is. And even in the operating room, there's there's kind of a little bit of leeway where people let people kind of be jerks. But you know, these people that I mentioned, the chairs of cardiac surgery and Bavaria, never once ever, even when it's easy to, when things go wrong and things are getting frustrating and you know things are, you know, going bad, never once did they turn. And so, you know, I think that's one of the biggest biggest things you know, just being able to see people at the absolute top of their game and then seeing how they handle that and how they treat others, which you know is is massively inspiring. I think another thing is, you know in surgery and and in in in what what we do there's a lot of change and you expect that at the end of your life or end of your career you'll be doing stuff that you've never done before that everything will be different. And so, there's always an element of kind of being uncomfortable because you're always doing something you've never done before, getting out of your comfort zone, changing things. And and you're just seeing all the people that you've worked with, how they deal with that and how they keep pushing themselves and how they deal with, you know, new technology and kind of moving moving forward is also kind of inspiring. You don't want to just get out there and just get comfortable. And that that's not kind of the name of the game. The game is get out there, not be comfortable. Keep keeping yourself in the uncomfortable position so you can keep kind of pushing forward, but anyway there's just, you know, in in the training and and at Hopkins whether on the, you know, PhD side or MD side you know just so many examples of that and that really kind of sticks with you and motivates you well after you finished training.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, you you mentioned before about striving for maintaining your your humility in a sense and and your honesty. And you've highlighted how you've respected the most out of people who were had all these accolades had all this opportunity to like you said, totally be a jerk, but they maintain their humility and their their kindness. And so, what would you have to say for people who are venturing into a field that I think oftentimes has this competitive nature or almost ego side of medicine and maintaining your your respect for humanity and your humility in the work that you do?

Trevor Ellison

I would say that, you know, it's also an advantage being inside such a phenomenal institution because you know that there's that there's using the name of an institution and there's actually what you actually know, like what's under the hood. And an institution, you'll see a lot of people who are at the institution, but when you look under the hood, you know there's not much there and you recognize that just because of the naming of the institution doesn't necessarily mean that you're good. And so, you know, people, the common phrase is you're only as good as your last whatever. You know, I I think the real phrase is you're only as good as your next whatever. And so, you know, if someone comes to judge you and even if you're looking at yourself, you know, nobody cares how well your last operation went. That's not what they care about. They care about your next one going to because it's probably them. And so, I think as long as you stay in that kind of headspace where you're only as good as what do you know and your next move and your next step, I I think that kind of puts you in, in, in the right zone and and again, you know, Hopkins is a phenomenal institution. But you have to realize that you know, when you're kind of thinking of yourself and your abilities and what you're going to do, that it can't be Hopkins. Hopkins has phenomenal accolades. But you know those don’t necessarily just flow on you just because you went there, but you really just kind of have to evaluate each time and say, hey, am I up for the next challenge? And am I really doing, you know, what I should be doing? Or am I doing it well? Am I progressing? And just kind of being in in kind of that that headspace I think that helps keep things where they should be.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, stepping outside of sort of this realm that you work in for those who aren't in medicine or not in the specific field that you study, what would you say about maybe addressing any misconceptions about how surgery works or how the leadership side of hospitals work?

Trevor Ellison

I guess first in medicine, I would say I went to Brigham Young University as an undergraduate out in Provo, UT, and there was a medical that the medical school advisor was super kind of off putting and basically almost discouraged everybody from going to medical school. No matter what the conversation was, it was always a downer. And you know it took a few years to kind of realize that that was actually a huge service to me and to a whole bunch of people because because once you start going down that route, it's a long route, and once you're in, you're in. If you want to get out you can, but there's not too many kind of off ramps. But, but once you're in it, then you're in it for the long haul. And and you really need to recognize early upfront, you know are you willing to you know, do all that kind of extra work and work that you know, maybe lots of people wouldn't do. You know, in residency, I remember in my mid-30s, you know, being in an elevator and one of the attendants would say hi to me and I'd be like, oh, that's awesome. And I was like, wait a second. I'm 35 years old, and the best part of my day is somebody says hi. Like, you know what? What am I? You know what kind of life am I living? But anyway, there's a lot of time. There's a lot of intense training. There's a lot of, you know, times that, that, that are very difficult. So yeah, I I think measuring that the cost upfront and recognizing if that's what you want then then you gotta be all in and and and go for it. And I mean, I love it. I wouldn't change a single thing. You know, the one thing that I think I've had and I think other people in medicine could have, and I'm not saying other professions aren't good by any stretch of imagination, but I'm saying that one thing that has never come up in my life ever has been you know is is what I'm doing, is it making a difference or is it worthwhile? I have had some friends who have mentioned that who’re in some other fields, you know, outside of medicine. And you know, every now and then they’re like, well, you know, I sit in this cubicle and I'm sitting in front of this computer and does it really matter? That has never, ever in medicine ever been a topic of conversation. So, I think it's very, very rewarding through and through. But yeah, I think mentioning cost upfront and then just knowing you're going to be, you know, stick with it, but it's going to be an unbelievably, you know, rewarding, challenging, and ever-changing, changing job. But I'm trying to think. Outside of that, you know, medicine in general, you know, is is a big business and there's, you know, institutions and there's programs and there's kind of cogs of a wheel. Anyway, there's at the end of the day, you're always working basically for somebody. And so, recognizing what structure you're working inside of, what their goals and objectives are, and do you want to be a part of that. Because you can waste—not waste—or you can spend or waste a whole bunch of time, years, effort, being a cog in somebody else's wheel. And if you're not really on board with that wheel or that cog or you know who that is, you know, it's probably time to, you know, find a place where where you do want to fit in. And especially coming from Hopkins, you know, just such a phenomenal institution you kind of get a little bit of you know well I have to be at some place that has a name. But you know, I think as you kind of get to the other end, you have to start realizing well, you know, yes, it has a name, but what what are the actual dynamics, what is the organization you know and going to be a cog in somebody else's wheel or do I want to go out and create my own wheel? So, there's still very much that aspect. I think that is, you know, part of any job. But you know, even in medicine, I think it comes down to that, which sometimes gets a little bit lost.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, if there is, what would the next phase of your career look like for you?

Trevor Ellison

Also, I'm certainly the director of a smaller program here in Ohio and you know, I think the goal would be to, you know, progress and get larger and larger programs, you know, and help you know, hopefully elevate them. And in the meantime, you know, hone my skills and, you know, move along with the technology and do the latest and greatest. So that'd be definitely one part, kind of a leadership in in, in these programs. Number two would be to continue the research. There's there's just so much phenomenal, you know, stuff out there to do. And so, I definitely want to just be diligent in, in doing clinical clinical work, whether it's cost effectiveness, whether it's, you know, content analysis for preferences, whether it's, you know, in patient preference, you know Markov modeling, you know, whatever it is just being engaged in that and hopefully bringing something to the literature or to the you know cardiac surgery kind of group. You know, help, maybe introduce new ideas or ways to think about things, whether it's, you know, patient preference, how do we get to those, how do we, you know, evaluate prospects, all those sorts of things. So instrumental variables like you know that's not in our vocabulary now, but hope you maybe get that into our vocabulary as we, you know, use our large database research and and all that. So, I definitely want to do that. And then there's also, you know, part of of giving back and and how do you you know, in this space is a place to give back, whether it’s education, you know, building educational tools for the societies, for medical schools, you know, going back to the medical school. And then also you know in your own community and then even you know internationally, you know, is there a way to work something out work out there you know that you can, you know, then kind of build on itself and grow in scale. So, you know all those kind of three pronged areas, I'm definitely interested in and kind of work trying to work my way down.

Brooklyn Arroyo

So, the sort of grand finale of each episode is something that we are asking of all of our interviewees, and I think that you've briefly highlighted on this throughout, but I I just want to dive deeper into it and ask you what inspires you right now?

Trevor Ellison

What inspires me? Well, there's I mean, definitely I’m married and have 4 kids and so that's definitely, you know, a huge inspiration and and kind of what what what I want to do and you know how I want to you know be good husband, be a good father, you know, help my boys and girls, you know, grow up all that sort of stuff is a massive, you know, inspiration. I see other inspiration it's just kind of life in general, you know, I like to kins of think of the old movie by Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society. There's one episode or one part of in the movie where where he's talking about kind of sucking the marrow out of life and that life has so much to offer. There's so many things out there and you know I think that you know, if you're on your deathbed and you're looking back and you’re like, man, that was it. That's all I had and what did I do? You know I think there's just so much to do. And you know, being excellent at your job, being excellent at being a leader, being excellent at research, you know, being excellent at being a world traveler and you know the world is your playground and figuring out, you know, what places you like, what places, you know, you may not, you know, just figuring out life and learning languages. I speak Spanish. I lived in Spain for two years. You know, learning Mandarin with my son, you know we play instruments, learning new instruments now, but but just life in general, you know, every day is a gift. There's, you know, so much out there you know. And and and I do feel kind of kind of the ticking clock just kind of going and wake up every morning and even on the weekends, you know, feels like you got to get something done. You know, there's so much to do. There's so much exciting to do, exciting stuff to do. You know, I I don't even want to waste kind of a minute or a day. So, I I kind of think, you know, the motivation of a family and the motivation of just the gift of life just every day and fantastic opportunities that are out there are are definitely big motivators.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Definitely I. And for our viewers, I was nodding vigorously the entire time because it really is inspiring to have the unknown and and just all the opportunities that are in the world. And so, I really appreciate speaking with you today and all that you've had to offer and all the insight you've had.

Trevor Ellison

Thanks for having me.

Brooklyn Arroyo

Yeah.