Dr. Beth Goldstein, EdD in Education | Director, Youth Impact Lab at Babson College and Founder of Edge Institute

In this episode, we discuss why Beth decided to pursue a doctoral degree in education after a successful career in business, consulting, and teaching entrepreneurship and marketing, the importance of peer-to-peer collaboration in her doctoral learning process and the ways it helped her embrace not knowing all the answers, and how she empowers educators to be more effective teachers by helping them see themselves as entrepreneurs.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Beth and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

Hi! I'm co-host Lois Dankwa, and this is the 100 alumni voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today we are joined by Beth Goldstein, EdD in education and current director of Babson College's Youth Impact Lab and founder of Edge Institute and Educational Consulting firm. Hi Beth.

Beth Goldstein 

Hi Lois. Nice to be here.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, thanks so much for joining us. How are you today?

Beth Goldstein 

I'm doing great.

Lois Dankwa

Well, I'm excited to dive in, and I I think I want to start by first understanding and hearing more about what made you want to pursue an EdD in education, and just more about your graduate work at Hopkins.

Beth Goldstein 

Excellent. Well, I'd love to talk about this topic, because I think my background is probably not typical of most individuals, as I at 55 decided to go back to school and get my doctorate. But I'll tell you a little bit about the journey. My background is in business. I have, I have an MBA. I have a bachelor's in economics, and really spent most of my career working with small businesses, helping them grow their organizations, and then teaching entrepreneurship and marketing at several universities, at Boston University, at Brandeis and then I've been at Babson for almost 9 years, but I've always been intrigued by understanding how do people learn. So, I've got this business background. I consult with individuals helping small businesses grow. That's a learning process. Working with students, undergrad and MBAs, helping them learn and change attitudes. But I never had any formal training in in teaching or in learning. And so, once my kids were done with college, so I had no more tuition to pay for, I thought, well, this is my time, and still like paying tuition obviously. So, started looking at opportunities to go back and get my doctorate. And Hopkins, of course, is not only top ranked, but I knew the rigor. I've known many people who have gone to Hopkins. And I thought this would be perfect for me. Plus, they had a track in entrepreneurial leadership, in education, and since my background and life focus has been around building entrepreneurial leader, I thought, this is home for me. So applied, had no regrets. I loved the program. I did the online with residencies once a year, and I now have a much better grasp and understanding of how people learn which helps inform my consulting practice. It helps inform how I teach and how I develop curriculum. So, it's sort of in a nutshell my story of how I got to Hopkins.

Lois Dankwa

That's so cool. I so as someone that's so fascinated by just how people learn and just think about things, I love that that was really the draw for you for pursuing your doctor degree. And I'm curious then, so you're certainly not alone in being someone who's kind of had a career that you like to stand on and that has really strongly influenced your doctoral work. And I'm curious then how how that intentionality or that foundation really guided how you thought about what you were taking away from your doctorate? But then also what you wanted to do afterwards as well?

Beth Goldstein 

That's that's a great question. So, I actually started out thinking, I'm gonna learn how to inspire entrepreneurs to improve their skill sets to have greater success. But as I moved through the program, I realized I had this passion for working with teachers and other educators, both that the university level, but also through K-12, that their commitment, their understanding to learning, always impressed me. So, I ended up marrying these two, and I and I studied the role entrepreneurship educators play in how their students develop entrepreneurial self-efficacy. So, my focus went from students, entrepreneurial self-efficacy, to actually what happens in classroom settings? What happens outside of the classroom? And how does a student-led experiential curriculum really, then, inform educators? How they deliver, what type of pedagogy they're deploying, but also, what what does that do with the students, right? And so, the more experiential which we I was already, I was teaching the very experiential way to begin with, but I've upped the game significantly, as I really understood better from the research. Wow! The more we're giving these individuals the opportunity to succeed, to fail, to test—I’m big on Kolb’s theory of experiential learning—we really can design much stronger curriculum and really help students of all at all levels, especially with these gaps in in equal access to education. It really starts to address that, because this is a game changer, in in my opinion, of doing really more intense experiential learning. So that really informed what I was doing in my classes. It informed how I was consulting with individuals, how I was developing curriculum. And then what I was telling teachers, because they already understood teaching at a very deep level. But sometimes that student-led component can be more challenging when people are comfortable in the teacher-led environment.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I certainly understand that. So, I it's funny, because the it's it's almost like the work that you've done in your doctoral work, and that you're doing now, you're doing work about kind of the type of person and role that you fill as well. Or it's about people like you. So, for example, for me, I do health services research to make sure that health care works for people in different ways. In one way I'm evaluating, but in another way I'm also just, I’m a research participant too in another sense, right. And I'm curious then what is it like to do research that also is kind of about yourself? How do you think about your own positioning? And how do you balance that awareness in how you're working professionally as well?

Beth Goldstein 

Yeah, that that's been interesting because I started with my own insecurities of what don't I know about teaching? But never thought that's what I was going to study, and and as I progressed, I actually saw where I was making mistakes, where I was assuming things about the classroom environment. I'll I'll give you an example at Babson for many, many years I taught a course with freshman where they actually take on business projects, and we always allow the students to decide amongst themselves who was going to be the leaders in the in the organization, but as my research, started showing the differences in gender of leadership roles that women will take versus men, and how women need more entrepreneurial self-efficacy to actually take these roles, but they only get that by taking the roles right. It's a it's a chicken versus egg situation, and I recognized that because we were letting students decide these young women, these freshmen, were not getting the same opportunity that, but that by making a simple change in working with them to encourage them to be leaders they would then gain more opportunities, so that simple pedagogical change helped me, what I would like to think, decrease that gap in gender inequality right? But too a small degree; not to a large degree, but but that knowledge was so powerful because I didn't know that I was making the mistake. So, throughout the program, I was course correcting. I was like, okay, that works. I didn't know why that worked, but now I better understand it, and as I was doing my own experiential learning process, I feel like I'm a stronger teacher. But I can also explain these vulnerabilities to other teachers who may also not be doing it right, simply not because of lack of of passion for teaching, but because they didn't know.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, and I think that's one of the coolest things about kind of being a part of the work you're doing, but then also research, researching and evaluating it as well.

Beth Goldstein 

I agree. And vulnerability in being a humble researcher actually put it was, it was interesting because I've been teaching for so long, to be a student and to observe others, to realize, oh, I see why that works. I hadn’t been a student in many, many years, and being in that position, I I I liked being a humble researcher. I liked not having to know all the answers, because it allowed me to learn more, and to have enough confidence to say I don't know that, but I know how to get to the answer.

Lois Dankwa

So, I I would love to build on that more than because I feel like in doctoral studies a lot of us can get very caught up in, I don't know that. But not getting to the moment of I know how to get the answer, and I'm curious, then, for you how you dealt with that, and yeah, how you managed that, and how you got to the point of going, but I know how to get the answer?

Beth Goldstein 

You, I studied entrepreneurial self-efficacy, and and became sort of fascinated by all of Bandor’s, work around agency and self-efficacy, and recognizing the power of knowing that I can control my destiny and how that was important in not just looking at the theories, but in in acting I think it made me more confident in saying I don't know. Right oftentimes we we just don't wanna, you know, when you're a professor at a at university, when you’re a teacher, you want to know all the answers, and it's hard not knowing. But being confident enough to say, I don't know, but I know I can look at the research. I know I can ask others. I know I can share, because peer to peer, you know, reviews and assessments and just that collaboration is so critical for us to all improve. Before I went through the program, I I wasn't as confident saying to my peers I don't know how to do that, or I'm not sure if that's the right way. And and I've seen the same with my peers who didn't feel like they could say it, but as I went through and realized, okay, I could be vulnerable. Let's all talk about this together. I think it's allowed others to also feel like it's okay to not know. And the path forward is partially research, but really partially talking to peers, talking to others, looking, modeling other behaviors, and having that confidence to say, it's okay to not know everything. But it's not okay to not pursue the answer, right, because that would be creating harm in some way, or you wouldn't be your best self.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, that's a that's a good point. It's not okay to kind of just stew. But it's, you know, as someone who so collaboration is a big part of the research that I do. And I think about how it's so important to know and be okay with what you don't know. And then also what you don't know how to do, because that helps you know who you need to help kind of balance out your strengths, and that things that you're less strong on. So, I love that you've said that you mentioned kind of the value of teamwork. And yeah, that it's okay.

Beth Goldstein 

Yeah. And it's interesting, because I've been teaching entrepreneurship, we're teaching our students this vulnerability. But teachers aren't always allowed to be vulnerable, and yet that's really the only way we can make change happen right? We can help others learn.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, I I'm curious about like I'm curious what's most surprising about the work that you do?

Beth Goldstein 

Oh, there's so many things that are surprising to me. So, you know, because I teach entrepreneurship, but I teach teachers how to teach entrepreneurship. That's really, I do more train the trainer work, and I always see, have seen teachers and now we're talking really, you know, middle or high school teachers, I've always seen them as as entrepreneurs, because our definition of entrepreneurship is really someone who can make change happen. And and who does that? The quintessential entrepreneur is, is an educator because they have this opportunity in the classroom every day to really make change happen to do powerful work and to also really work around problem solving, right. Things are gonna fail. There's gonna be opportunities. There's gonna be a lot of obstacles in their way. So, when you define entrepreneurship, and you'll notice that I've said nothing about starting a business, define entrepreneurship that way, it starts to help educators see themselves in that role. So, what I do when I start every course with teachers is, I ask them how many of them think of themselves as entrepreneurs. I will tell you very rarely do I get more than 10% of hands up. But then I ask, okay, tell me the challenges you face every day, and they start saying these things and it's entrepreneurship 101, you know, challenges in classroom, challenges with budgets, challenges with day to day management, seeing opportunity in your students, right, all create critical thinking, growth management skills. And then I say, well, what does an entrepreneur do? And if we take out the word business, then they go, oh, wait a minute. I am an entrepreneur, and having that self-identity, and we actually measure this, we measure pre and post how many identify as entrepreneurs. We also see a correlation of being more confident in teaching entrepreneurship to others, right? They'll say at the end of our program. They'll say things like now that I see that I'm an entrepreneur, I really can help my students understand it's not about a business. It's not about creating business. Sure, you might create one. It's about how you address problems, how you manage through failure, how you create opportunities for others. And that's for me has been surprising, and probably the most rewarding thing that I do is helping others see themselves as real change makers, as true entrepreneurial leaders.

Lois Dankwa

I love that. I love it because it's so empowering, and it helps people well, it goes back to kind of that agency piece we were talking about to help people really see themselves in the position of like you're saying being change makers. Something that I'm curious about is, so I I love how you attach entrepreneurship to education and to the role of educators but and you might have said this earlier, but I if you did, I want you to embellish and add more words to it for sure. But like, what made you think about educators as entrepreneurs in the beginning? Because I think it's so cool, and it makes sense. But I'm curious kind of what brought you to that moment of going this is actually what they are, and this is how they like, including this in their training is essential to how they do their work?

Beth Goldstein 

I think it probably started a few years back when I was teaching a group of professors in Mexico, and they were all teaching entrepreneurship of some form. But I asked them if they saw themselves as entrepreneurs, and it was a casual conversation, and most of them said, no, no, cause, I haven't started a business, and it started me down this path of thinking, how are we defining entrepreneur? Because if you get rid of that one word launch a “business,” all the things that these professors were telling me they were doing, and some of them actually were starting businesses, and even then, didn't see themselves as entrepreneurs. But all of those traits and qualities they were already doing. And at that point I said, okay, we would go through, we went through the training. It was like 2 and a half days. So, after 2 and a half days of training, I decided to ask them at the very end. This wasn't even part of the original training. But how many of you have changed your mind? How many of you now think, oh, I might be an entrepreneur? And while not everybody changed their mind, a large enough percentage did, which made me realize this is really an important conversation to be having. And it's not a conversation I would have thought of having sitting in my office. It was one that I had. It was this Aha moment which I secured only because I was experiencing and learning from them, and through them, all the things we tell our entrepreneurs that they need to do, and after that I've changed all of my training and even my talks. I gave a talk in India to about 45 school leaders 2 or 3 weeks ago, and I asked at the beginning, how many of you see yourselves as entrepreneurs? And 3 people raised their hand. And then we had this dialogue. What does it mean to be? What do you do every day? What does it mean to be an entrepreneur? And once we had that conversation, they I asked again, okay, these are all the things entrepreneurs do. These are all the things you told me you do. How many of you now think that you're entrepreneurs, and every single person in that room, and these were school leaders, raised, raised their hand. There wasn't a still hand down. And they came up to me afterwards and said, I never thought of myself this way, and and again, like you said, it’s very empowering to have that moment where you say oh, entrepreneurship. It really is about making change happen. And since I'm teaching others to teach that as a concept, it gets them to move away from, I've got to get my students to develop a business. It gets them to say I've got to get my students to have greater confidence in their skill sets to develop social emotional skills, critical thinking, a growth mindset, grit, self-efficacy. That's the goal. It's not the output of developing a business. It's the outcome of of these, of these social emotional skill sets.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah. And it makes me think about how it's so important to just to reframe how we think about what we do. And even as doctoral kind of students and candidates, it's just reframing the narrative in our heads for whatever thing that we're doing, whatever it is. That's so powerful.

Beth Goldstein 

Yeah, I agree. The story we of of self, the story we're telling ourselves makes a difference in how we approach the world, again around agency and self-efficacy. It. It really is empowering. And it's for me the the greatest thrill I have is an educator is knowing I can help one educator, right? If I'd done that, then I've done my job, because now they can go help hundreds of students, right.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, certainly. So, I have one more question for you, and I am curious, what inspires you right now?

Beth Goldstein 

I'm inspired because I know the programs we're delivering are actually helping decrease that gap in equal access to education. We're doing a lot of work around the world, not just with private schools, with individuals who have more privilege, but with individuals who really are, especially after Covid impacted so severely. You know I I I'm the. I focus heavily on the UN Global Goals in my training work. And if you look at poverty, gender inequality, unemployment, these are these are real world issues that can be addressed by the next generation, and the current, if they've got confidence to do it. So, that inspires me. I hear young people on a regular basis doing amazing work, and their teachers are doing amazing work and really inspiring, inspiring them to go out and make the world a better place. And that for me is is really at the end of the day, that's the ultimate goal is, we all contribute in little ways to making the world a better place, and I believe education and learning is at the heart of all of that.

Lois Dankwa

That's so wonderful. I love that, and I I'm so grateful that you took time to chat with us today and share a bit about your story and help us remember to reframe our narratives of ourselves, and also that we're entrepreneurs in different ways, shapes, and forms.

Beth Goldstein 

Thanks Lois. I loved this conversation. Thanks for the opportunity.