Dr. Levi Mogg, EdD in Entrepreneurial Leadership | Executive Director at Teach For America

In this episode, we discuss how Levi’s childhood experience in the foster care system and his time working for Teach For America led him to pursue a doctorate of education in entrepreneurial leadership, the ways that he applies the perspectives and skills he gained during his doctoral program in his work today, and his take on what it means to be a community leader in education.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Levi and to learn more about his story, visit his page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa 

Hi! I'm co-host! Lois Dankwa, and this is the 100 alumni voices podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Levi Mogg, EdD in entrepreneurial leadership and current executive director at Teach for America. Hi Levi.

Levi Mogg

Hey, Lois! Thanks for having me!

Lois Dankwa 

Yeah, how are you doing today?

Levi Mogg

I'm doing well. I'm excited. It's Friday. You caught me on a great day.

Lois Dankwa 

Right. That's right. It's Friday. It's sunny in DC. Which we're grateful for. So, happy to dive in. So, I want to start by hearing about what made you want to pursue an EdD in entrepreneurial leadership, and just hear more about your graduate work in general.

Levi Mogg

Yeah, no, I, and I would say, you know, I highly recommend the program by the way, but I think you know, the what initiated an interest in, you know, getting an EdD really stems from my pursuit of just trying to create a more just world through education which I could talk about more like my own personal journey but really trying to figure out like how can I create the most value in the education system to ensure that every student has access to or be on a life changing trajectory, and I truly believe education can be the pathway for that to happen. So in in doing so, I you know, I obviously, I went to school to continue to sharpen and refine my skills and deepen my knowledge and build up my network to try to have the biggest impact possible.

Lois Dankwa 

I love that. I definitely want to hear more about kind of your interest and passion for justice and education, because I mean, we're clearly a biased group being into getting doctorates. But yeah, what drew you to that? I'd love to hear more.

Levi Mogg

Yeah, you know, you know, I'll go back in time a little bit to like 10-year-old Levi, you know, grew up. I was actually born, in Washington State, where I'm the executive director now and then moved to the Bay area, and by 10 years old I was actually thrust into the Foster Care system there! And so, yeah, I lived with, you know, went to 20 different schools and 10 different homes. And really it wasn't until high school that I found some adults in my life who believed more in me than I believed in myself. And if you ever work with children, or you've mentored anyone, you kind of experience this like transfer of expectations where you're like, hey, I think you can go to college. I think you have, you’re capable of way more than you even know, and these mentors and these teachers did that for me. And I end up applying for college. I was first generation, you know, coming out of foster care system, where I don't think we see a lot of foster care kids get traction who are in the system. And then in college just found my people. I was like, oh, they love school. They love learning, you know. It was all about like self-improvement. And you know, thinking about a career I was looking into grad school opportunities after my undergrad, and I heard of this organization, and they believed that students had unlimited potential that leaders can help unlock that potential and that education could be a pathway to freedom. And I was like no kidding? So, I joined Teach for America, and ended up teaching in Eastern North Carolina in a rural school where I saw, you know, I worked at a KIP school there, if you’re familiar with KIP it's a knowledge is power program, just delivering on just like promise to kids and we worked from 7 am till 5 pm. And we worked on Saturdays. We worked with, we did home visits, and worked with parents, and really tried to figure out, how can we use education as a tool to help students unlock their potential? I watched 100% of my graduating seniors go to college, and of course it's not a perfect model. I'm not advocating for KIP in this conversation, but what I am saying, I think what I learned from that is just like man, it takes a lot it takes a lot of people and a lot of stakeholders to to make this work. And so, you know, I continue to join staff at Teach for American and I was like, oh, can I advance leadership through leaders and continue to tinker on this problem? It's like, how do we create a more just experience for kids who are most disenfranchised and most forgotten, I think, and most oppressed by the education system? So, I continued on that journey, and just thought the doctorate degree would continue to again allow me to refine my skills and knowledge again, and just have a better understanding of what are the factors that are influencing students’ inability to reach their full potential in our system?

Lois Dankwa 

I love all of that, for a number of reasons. I think that I love how you mentioned that well, one, our experiences are what drive us to whatever moment we're in. So, I love that you started with a 10 year old version of yourself, but also I love that you mentioned you're finding your people because those are the when you find community or people that really identify with your experience, it can motivate you in a really unique way, and I particularly love hearing about the work you do. I at some point in undergrad, I worked at a charter school where there were a lot of teach for America teachers, so it was just cool to see how that worked. But I want to dive into more kind of finding your people, and how finding your people both in undergrad and perhaps in your program, how it made you think about new ideas, how it influenced you and all of that.

Levi Mogg

My people, you know, I at least for myself, you know when I think about the people that I most like gravitate towards or the communities that I find myself constantly in are people who really see education as an I mentioned this earlier as like a pathway to freedom as like a great equalizer. And I think there's some research out there like it's like it's not a great equalizer. It's like society is like so racist and so classist like, what are we going to do about it? And I'm like, I'm here for that. I think that makes a ton of sense. But can education very pragmatically make students’ lives better? And maybe I mean in those are the people that I find myself around are people who really want to make sure that on Monday, you know, the kids who are in classrooms who are underserved have an opportunity to get closer to reaching their full potential. And so those are those are the people I gravitate towards. I think you know, not only are a biased group in that we like love education, I think we're a biased group in that I think Johns Hopkins is particularly justice-oriented. I think it kind of attracts people who have a similar worldview that is like, hey, we need to like theorize about the problem and understand the factors that are creating the issues. In addition, we need to do something about it, and those are the people that I constantly find myself around. And in the EdD program I think you get a subset of those groups who are really trying to do a couple of things. You know, it's not a traditional PhD program. You are obviously doing research. But it is about, how can I make my professional context better? Like, how can I improve this? Right and you do like, do the first 3 chapters where you’re evaluating the problem, doing your needs assessment and like really evaluating the challenges and the manifestations of the challenges. But then you're spending the rest of the time addressing it like actually providing an intervention to try to make the lives of your constituents better. So, yeah, I think I've really found those people in the program and I think they pushed me to both evaluate the challenges that I thought that I saw in my professional context, but also consider a multitude of solutions that I didn't consider before, and specifically on the entrepreneurial and innovative solutions.

Lois Dankwa 

That's cool. I love that. Well, it's cool to think about how, especially for your program, it starts with kind of yes, you're asking question and questions and you're understanding the problem. But then it also kind of then transitions to the application piece, and for me health policy and management person that's really invested in that application piece, that's exciting to hear how that exists in kind of the education sphere. And I'm curious while you were in your program kind of what pieces of your program made you kind of have the mindset that you do now? And how did you how did parts of your mindset transform in your program and how's that showing up now?

Levi Mogg

Oh, yeah, that's a great question. And great to hear, Lois, you’re fellow like pragmatic practitioner. I love it.

Lois Dankwa 

That’s right.

Levi Mogg

 More of us in the world. Yeah, no, you know, I think going into the Program, I think I identified some challenges that existed. You know, I worked in Idaho at the time. I was working primarily in rural communities, and I was just watching as, you know, students would graduate high school and not have any options to go to college. You know, and again not saying college is a thing everybody needs to go to but I'm like, oh, my goodness! Like if they can't get an acceptance letter, they don't really have the opportunity, you know, to go there. It's like, look, how can we support school? How can teach America support schools or help teachers be the catalyst to try to provide pathways for students to have more opportunity after like post-secondary opportunity? And that question you know I talked with principals. I was talking with teachers like, how do we do this? And so, I thought I had the solution. You know, I thought I think I came to Hopkins, and I was like, I have the solution. We just need like more targeted support for students for post-secondary. And I think you know, I'd say earlier on the program they're like, that's not your problem. It's not. That's not a problem you're trying that you need to spend more time like really evaluating. I think the thing get underneath the the thing that you're observing in your professional context. And so, through conversations, I mean, you are writing about your problem of practice over in a bunch of different contexts using a bunch of different literature, and continue to advance your understanding of the problem and what's been written about it, and what's been done about it in the past. And so just that approach to just rigorously define the parameters of the problem that you're observing continues to show up in my work. You just do a better job at really getting to root causes of issues as opposed to coming in and believing that the problem that you already have a solution for a problem that you haven't defined, you know. One common phrase that popped up in my program was like a solutioniitis that comes from this book but that we we often has so many solutions that connect to so few problems. You know, and so how do we spend more time rigorously examining the challenges and finding support to help I don't know give texture to exactly what they are, and then come in with solutions. And so, I think, really tactically, is teach for America figures out like, what is gonna be the parameters of our impact in Washington? It's like doing the hard work of looking at data, talking with stakeholders, doing a needs assessment, like what are the challenges the community most wants to work on? Who's already here? Where's the where are the bright spots? Like, where's the good work happening? And then how might Teach for America be a part of that? As opposed to coming in as like teaching American solution to an undefined problem.

Lois Dankwa 

Right. It's about being in your program kind of refined your lens, so that the solutions that you all envision are more responsive to community needs and community circumstances.

Levi Mogg

Exactly exactly. And you know again, it's like, I think, you know, we talk about inequity being like this huge, you know, national problem and there's so many factors that influence it. And if we are going to, let's say, teach America can be a part of a broader, equitable solution it's like understanding how we fit in the system right and not assume that yeah, leaders will make all the difference all the time. It's like do I believe leaders in the classroom make a huge difference in the life of students? Yes, and what else? And so, it's just like a more rigorous, I think evaluation.

Lois Dankwa 

Right. So, something you said earlier was that you entered the program thinking, okay, this is my question. This is what's gonna be solved. Done. And do you very quickly realized, no. And I that's an experience, I'm sure, unique in your own way. But not uncommon for a lot of us, and I'm curious what is that experience like? And can you talk more about realizing that you don't know as much as you know but then experiencing kind of that humbling moment?

Levi Mogg

Yeah, you know, our, this is such a good question. I think I wrestle with this all the time, especially like, how do? How do we like taking our lived experiences? And how do we use that as like, not as a driver, but as like an input right into helping us understand a problem? And at times, you know, we could have these like very salient real experiences, you know, in our professional context, especially if you work with like, you work in communities that are under resourced and you just see, like all these challenges that they face, to like hone in on one just like, oh, this! If we just fix this, it would shift the system. I think the humbling part about honestly being in the program with other colleagues who were working on other factors that were influencing my problem. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like this is way bigger than I think I realize, and I think that was like the humbling moment, right? Which is like, oh, my job is to really understand the piece of the puzzle that I’m most proximate to and can work on. But if I don't take a step back and see what other people are doing, and really see the the whole picture, I don't think we're gonna see the change that we want in our lifetime. And so that was like a really humbling experience. And that's been reinforced by like brilliant people that I've talked to, who've been in the game much longer than I have, which is like, hey, understand the whole, understand your part to the whole, and ensure, right, that constantly doing that like talking with others and Coalition building, to ensure that you're doing your part in such a way that it's strengthening what other folks are doing as well. I think, a really concrete way to think about this, for at least for me, was like, I'm working on a you know, it's like a high school intervention about providing students like post-secondary self-efficacy. And that's great. But even if they get to college, you know, we had people in the program who were working on like, hey, once they get here, students are not prepared academically. What are the what other challenges are they facing either in college or in high school that we can intervene on that would ensure that they're successful once they're in college? So, again, I think there's a lot of interconnectedness to the problems we're trying to solve in education and other fields as well.

Lois Dankwa 

Yeah, that's such a. It's making me think about kind of the challenge that. So doing work towards equity, whether it's education or equity and education or as it relates to health care and any other topics, it's both a good thing, but also, can be very challenging, knowing that like you said and like I'm aware of, and a lot of us are aware of that you are a piece of a larger story, and your strengths are contributing to that piece but you're not solving all of the problems. And I think this is something I've been grappling with recently where it's like, okay, there is systemic racism in healthcare, for example. I alone was born in this world, and did not create it, and I likely will not fix it. So, I'd love kind of for you, or from your perspective, what, how you dealt with that kind of reality knowing that you're working towards equity and just enabling people or enhancing their ability to get access to things. But knowing that you can't fix everything.

Levi Mogg

Oh, I mean, I would say, you got you caught me on a good day, you know, some days not so good, where you know you just feel defeated, you're like oh, my goodness! The same problem I came to work on 15 years ago is still a problem today, you know, in the communities that people have worked so hard and so you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote some literature that is probably not end up in anybody's dissertation. No offense to Simon Sinek, but he wrote this book that I found very intriguing. This idea that emerged from this book, so he wrote it right during the pandemic and it was called Infinite Players, right. It's based on some theory about it based on game theory but he in the book, and I'm going to do a terrible job summarizing, he talks about the difference between finite players and infinite players. And finite players where it's where the game has a beginning and end. It's like sports, there's rules. And then, like, when the game ends, the players are done, right. And he talks about infinite games, like about relationships. And I often think about our work for equity as being an infinite game unfortunately, right? It's like our work, our pursuit of a more just world, or this world of like reconciliation is an infinite game that we're working on our entire lives, and it will continue even when we're done. But the game itself, like helping solve it, helping improve it actually, motivates us to be in it, right? And it's so it's like that's that that he juxtaposes those 2 ideas. And when I think about equity work and creating a more just world and working with people like you, working with others who are trying to create more equitable systems for those most disenfranchised, most forgotten, most oppressed, I'm like there's nothing I’d rather do with my life than do that that thing. So, you know, I think that's what I think that's what continues to motivate me is like, I want to be an infinite player like, I want to spend my life doing this and what I do and how I contribute I want to continue the biggest impact possible.

Lois Dankwa 

I love that, and I hear you on just doing the work, recognizing that it's a never-ending journey, and it's unpredictable. That's part of the fun for sure. 

Levi Mogg

Yeah, it has to be right, like it has to be.

Lois Dankwa 

Right. That's what keeps you going. So, I'm curious. I'm curious about what your day to day looks like, and just what does it mean to be executive director of Teach for America? But then also, you, yeah, what? Yeah, tell us what you do.

Levi Mogg

Yeah, this is a good question. So, I actually started October 31. So, I just crested like my 90-day plan, you know, I met with hundreds of stakeholders, and so, still trying to figure out exactly what I do. But I'll say like the primary, like buckets of my work, like one is to help like lead a great team, right? I work with some of the most fantastic leaders in the world who are, you know, working with our alumni, working with core members, working with our school and district partners, so it's like one big bucket of my job is just like a good manager right? Ensuring that we're all we're clear on what we're driving towards. People feel like a sense of belonging what we're doing. And we're making progress towards our aims. Secondly, is just being a community leader, you know, it's like I was born here, which is so interesting. Provincialism is alive and well everywhere, I think. But you know, I think it's like, but I don't know the communities super well, that we work in, so I’m getting to know our communities, meeting with students, meeting with principals and superintendents to get a sense of what's their vision for students right? Like, what is their vision for kiddos? And what 10 years from now, like, what's different for kids like, what are we actually seeing different in the system? And then thinking how might teach America be a part of this, if at all, and continuing to have those conversations. So, let's say, you know, being a community leader, managing a team, and lastly, is like fundraising right? Which is like the best part of the job meeting with people who have a passion for educational equity, who may not have the privilege of sitting in like working for the nonprofit that I work for and doing the work day to day and helping bridge the gap between what they care about what they care about what they're funding and ensuring they know it deeply as possible. So I think those are like the 3 things that I do day to day. I would say my calendar shifts, you know, all the time on the things that I'm working on. But if I can, if I could be like a great team lead, like, you know, manage, you know, a team well, if I could be a community leader and really be listening and honed in to the needs of our community, and I could be an advocate and really finding folks who have the resources to channel into education, then I would be doing my job.

Lois Dankwa 

Yeah, that's really, it's fun to hear how you kind of you get to experience a mix of all kinds of different things for your role. So that's great. I'm curious then what advice would you give to someone who is looking for or looking to approach their career in a similar way as you have? So, the reason I word it that way is because there can be people that do kind of engineering or health or biology that still want to do a similar type of thing you're doing so what advice would you give?

Levi Mogg

Yeah, I, a couple of things that I think you know, if somebody was like hey, how might I if you want to be the Executive Director of Washington, you could have the job if you really wanted. It's a lot of work. No, I’m just kidding. I love it. I love it. I would say, one stay curious, right? If anything, be it my time at Johns Hopkins, if anything, just like always curious, so like what's in the system? What's happening? Like never assume, like, always hold what your assumptions loosely, because you're probably wrong, you know, but always operate with a sense of curiosity, understanding that times change, people change, things in the system changes, and just always open and being nimble enough to shift your perspective as you notice new things arise, so stay curious. That would that would be one. The second, I think I've learned just over time about working, you know, as you know, a community leader in different communities is to stay very proximate to whatever the challenges that you're trying to work on, stay approximate to the folks most affected by that challenge. Stay proximate to whatever your intervention is in the system. As I think at times, I mean, especially you know I was a teacher once, and then I coach teachers. And then I worked on a program that coached, you know, you could really lose sight of like what's going on. And so just like staying close, keeping your ear to the ground, listening, showing up. And the last is this, you know, is, I think, that at this point in my career I'm like again, I'm gonna hold this loosely, I might be wrong, is that my number one goal or my number one job is to create value right? Like that's what we're all trying to do. Like we're trying to create value. And in some ways that we need to provide excellent service right to create value for folks. So that's to communities that's for teach for America to our core members, to our alumni, to our partners like constantly operating with a sense of like service and trying to create value for the work that they're doing, especially if you become like this ancillary organization in education, we're not providing a direct service. We are of service to our constituents.

Lois Dankwa 

I love all of that staying curious, staying close to the thing you're working on, and just continuing to remember how to add value, those they definitely all work hand in hand, because, yeah, it can be so easy to get lost in all of the mess like you were saying. I've loved everything you've talked about today. And it's been great to hear your perspective. And I'm curious as my last question, what inspires you right now?

Levi Mogg

So right now, I had an opportunity to visit a middle school 2 days ago, and I talked to a future entrepreneur, a future doctor, and a future pilot, and I was asking them questions like, hey, how's school going? You know what are? What are the things that are helping you prepare for the future? How is your school helping you prepare for the future? How might what barriers do you see? How might adults help remove some of those barriers so you have a you could reach, you can actually create the life you want for yourself? And I was so blown away at some of the like. I thought they were talking about like academics. I thought they were, gonna you know, college applications like, oh, FAFSA support. It's great intervention. The things they talk about is like having a caring adult who like believes in them, who gives them a a safest. It helps them feel a sense of belonging. And they're like man, there's just like a lot of pressure here, so like adults could just help take off the pressure by being in relationship with me. And I think at teach for America it's actually the people that we look for to be a part of our program, right? It's like, yes, they're like very ambitious. They want to. They're equity-minded, but they understand at the end of the day we're talking about students who want us to have a relationship with them to help them move them towards the future they want for themselves. So, I left inspired one that kids are so thoughtful, and anytime you want you know, at least for me, I'm like, I wanna know like, oh, what is the system? Yeah, I just like, go talk with kids. And they're like, very honest, like, brutally honest sometimes. And I think the work we're doing at Teach for America, and not only, but at least the work that I see day-to-day is doing that like finding adults who want to be a part of their urgent journey to help advance the possibility that they reach their full potential. So, I'm really inspired this week. Check with me next week. I might, you know. Who knows what might happen? 

Lois Dankwa 

I'm hoping you're inspired next week. But in any case, that definitely inspired me right now, and Levi, it's been so wonderful to just hear your perspective, hear more about kind of what your experience was pursuing your doctorate, and a little more about what you're up to now. So, thank you so much for joining us.

Levi Mogg

Yeah, thanks Lois. I really appreciate it.