Dr. Lisa Wyman, PhD in Epidemiology | Manager at Oregon Health Authority

In this episode, we discuss what sparked Lisa’s interest in public health and what led her to pursue a PhD in epidemiology, her experiences working in state government and the fulfillment she derives from being on the front lines of public health, and her advice for getting your feet wet and taking advantage of different learning opportunities during your doctoral studies to help prepare you for your future career.

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Lisa and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

Hi. I'm co-host Lois Dankwa and this is the 100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Lisa Wyman, PhD in epidemiology and current manager at Oregon Health Authority. Hi, Lisa.

Lisa Wyman

Hi, Lois. Great to be here today.

Lois Dankwa

So excited to have you here. I'm excited to dive in and I think I want to first start by hearing what made you want to pursue a PhD in epidemiology and just more about your graduate work at Hopkins in general.

Lisa Wyman

So, when I was an undergraduate, I was a political science and biology major. So, I was really interested in the intersection between health science and government and that kind of led me towards wanting to get a masters of public health. So, I went straight from undergrad to grad school at the University of Michigan, to a Masters of Public health, and I knew I wanted to do a PhD while I was doing my masters, but I wanted to work before I did my PhD. So, I actually got a job with the Utah Department of Health. Spent four years there as an epidemiologist. Wonderful job, wonderful experience and really got my feet wet with state government work, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. But it was a wonderful job. Great applied epidemiology work, but I wanted to know more. I felt there was a lot about epidemiology I didn't know. There was a I had a great Master’s program that taught me a lot, but I knew there was much more to learn, so it was a learning opportunity. And then I also felt that having a PhD would help me in my career in state government, especially into leadership positions. So, I thought the degree would kind of help me have more credentials to to especially do like data science which is what I do. So yeah, it's really a combination and also a combination with I just had a passion for epidemiology and that, you know, I wanted to learn more. I wanted to do more with with that subject.

Lois Dankwa

That's great to hear. It's often that I hear people mention kind of it's a combination of interest, but also a desire to go narrow that led us to pursue a PhD.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, yeah, that's one way to think about it.

Lois Dankwa

So, when you were in your doctorate program, it sounds like you entered with a desire like you said to be or contribute to the government space in different capacities in a more specific way. And I'm curious how that then guided how you interacted with what you were learning in your doctorate program, but then also where you saw yourself going afterwards?

Lisa Wyman

So yes, I mean I I knew probably by my first year of my program that that I wanted to get out and go back to government public health and I wasn't sure at the time that I would land in the state government or federal government like CDC. So that kind of guided me. The main thing that guided me was that, you know, and this is a piece of advice for people listening here, I sped through my doctoral program. You know, I I got out of there. I, but I think I I graduated in 2012, but I was already finished by the fall of 2011, and that's a regret I have. And you know I'm sharing with the group, I wish I had taken more time, especially knowing I was going to go into government. I would have loved to have taken more courses on business and leadership and organizational management. You know, I wish I had kind of thought about outside of epidemiology what can I learn in my PhD program that will help me in my career? And so that's a regret I have. I look back and like, gosh, like, I wish I had not sped through it so fast and taken the time to think like outside of epidemiology, like the Business School or the Health Policy department, that there were other opportunities to learn about being a leader, especially in government, and I wish I had done that. So, speeding through the doctoral program, it wasn't a mistake. I won't categorize a mistake, but it certainly was a regret I have, like, gosh, I wish I'd taken my time and thought through other learning opportunities. I mean, Hopkins has so many resources. I mean it it's it's, it's, it's an incredible place to to to get your degree. I mean, just so many resources available to you and I wish I had kind of thought outside the box, not just EPI, EPI, EPI, but, you know, thought about, like, the Business School, you know, other opportunities to take classes. So yeah, so wanting to get back into the state government work really put fire under my feet to finish up the school and get back to work at a government health department. But like I said, my regrets that I wish I had kind of dabbled in some other courses or talked to more professors and outside of epidemiology. Anyway, just that's just a thought for people listening that take take your time with your program, you know, enjoy, enjoy your doctoral degree. Learn more, think outside of your department what other learning opportunities are available to you.

Lois Dankwa

That's such an important note. I, as someone that does organizational theory and management stuff, I am always an advocate for people taking classes in that and learning that.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, it it can't hurt, you know? And it's it's all value added. Yeah, absolutely.

Lois Dankwa

I I love that you mentioned or kind of as a point of advice that people should take advantage of their resources and I'm curious, so you mentioned ways that you did not take advantage of your resources, but I'm also curious about ways that you did and how you're seeing those things contribute to what you're doing now.

Lisa Wyman

So so, one thing I did, which was really beneficial to my work, especially now because I'm a manager over behavioral health analytics program is I kind of minored in mental health. So, there was, I don't know if they still have it, but when I was there they had just started I think it was a certificate program that you could do for public health mental health. So, it was basically you took, I don't know, eight courses I think in mental health, epidemiology, psychiatric epidemiology, substance abuse. And that that was kind of like a little certificate program and that was that was really beneficial. A) my dissertation dealt with mental health. So that was just beneficial for my dissertation, but then it was just nice to again get outside the EPI department and be involved with other departments in in the School of Public Health. I really, and I know I don't know if they do those certificate programs anymore. I hope they do because it was it was a great way to kind of have a sub concentration outside of just EPI EPI EPI that I was taking some courses that kind of gave me a better understanding and and now where I landed now with a manager over behavioral health analytics, that coursework has really helped me out in understanding the subject matter that I'm overseeing.

Lois Dankwa

That's good to hear. It's good to hear that you were able to hone in on a topic that it's the efforts you're doing are amplified now in what you're doing now.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, absolutely.

Lois Dankwa

That's really exciting. So, I'm curious then what your kind of career has looked like since you graduated and then what were the different steps? And if you noticed different skills or things that you learned in your program show up in different ways whether it was you pivoting from different positions or noticing how you wanted to contribute and stuff like that?

Lisa Wyman

Sure. So, you know, I think the biggest thing I did for my career was that I took the plunge straight when I finished up my degree and went to work, I took the plunge into management, so it was totally baptism by fire. I had no management experience and I was put in charge of like a thirteen-person team of epidemiologists, program evaluators, and research specialists. So, this was with the Texas Department of City Health Services, their chronic disease section. So, it was it was the public health department and it was the section that dealt with chronic disease, health promotion, that sort of thing. And that was a big plunge to take. And and that really set my career up that, you know, every every position I've had since then has been in management. And I and I see a lot of people in state government, particularly people with PhDs, a lot of times they don't want to take the plunge into management. They they want to stay as individual contributors doing research. And to me, that's that that's a missed opportunity because we need data scientists in leadership positions and the way you get to those leadership positions is that you take those plunges into management. So that was something I kind of was naive about it. You know, I didn't. I was like, great new job, you know, I'll I'll dive right in. It was very hard. It was baptism by fire. I've come a long way since then as a manager. I'm much more comfortable making decisions and in my skin, you know, knowing what I feel like, I know what I'm doing now as a manager, but taking that plunge so early on really allowed me to go on a pathway to my career where I could do other leadership positions. And again, I I see people often with PhDs who work in applied public health. They often want to keep in a little box as an individual contributor. They don't want to deal with management; they just want to do their research. And to me, that's a lost opportunity because we we need data scientists at those high-level leadership positions in state government and health. And I think it's important that people take that plunge and and and dive into management. Management is tedious. It's difficult. It can also be immensely rewarding, which is what I found since I've been working in this field, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I I could see a lot of people being interested in kind of pursuing a management role, whether they're finishing their doctorate or in a postdoc moment. And they could also be scared because, like you said, the tasks that they would be doing are different than what they're familiar with and how you managed that. How you managed being in a space that felt like you didn't have you weren't well equipped to exist in that space, but regardless, you were there.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was baptism by fire. I mean, I had to learn how to do things like hiring, performance evaluations, mentorship. It it it was baptism by fire. I mean it. I mean, I had a really great supportive director at the time and who hired me. She was instrumental in me feeling comfortable in that role. But it was there was no guidebook. You know there there was there was no magic book. There was not a course I took in school that told me how to be a leader and how to be a manager. So, it was baptism by fire, but that's why I'm glad I took that plunge early on and got through that growing pain back then. And this was in 2012. So, it's been, you know quite a while to get through those growing pains so that you know I could have smoother sailing further down in my career with being comfortable as a manager and to and to know what I'm doing.

Lois Dankwa

And it's it's such a good reminder that there will be a learning curve even if you spend time so much time working on a a doctorate degree, there's still a learning curve in the next moment that you're in.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah. And I think you know, having spent those four years with the Utah Department of Health, like between my Masters and my doctor program like that was a great experience because it got my feet wet with state Government work. So, I I knew moving, you know, fast forward to the end of my my doctoral degree and wanted to go back to state government public health work. I knew the ropes like I had been in a state government environment. I knew how it worked. I can see how daunting it is for people who don't have that experience to really know can, you know, is state government where they want to be? You know, I I benefited from having that prior experience and knowing I like the machinery of state government public health, but I can see how people who don't have that experience, it is daunting. Like I mean government public health is so different from academia. I mean it's it's a night and day difference and they're both wonderful in each of their ways. But it's a fundamentally different way. You know, you leave your doctoral program trained up to be an independent researcher and then the state government public health is is is a very different environment for that type of work and it is I think, daunting for people who who who don't know what to expect. That's what I would just, you know, say to the folks, give it a try. It could be immensely rewarding work. And state government remember, this isn't just about public health and epidemiology. State government work they need, you know, engineers. They need psychologists. They need, you know, biologists, sociologists. There's so much rich job opportunities in state government work that go beyond public health.

Lois Dankwa

I'm glad you you mentioned kind of the variety that exists in state government work, and I'm curious from you what are perhaps common myths that people would have about your job and working in state government in general, but then also perhaps more specifically in the public health space.

Lisa Wyman

I think the biggest, you know, I think people outside of state government public health probably think that it's borne bureaucracy. There's just a bunch of people not doing anything and that couldn’t be further from the truth. It is a vibrant work environment, especially for public health. State government is so much with public health work in the United States occurs at the state government level, and there's more variety in program teams in state government than there are disciplines and an academic department. So, you know Texas for instance, you know we had infectious diseases, environmental health, you know, chronic disease, vital statistics. I mean just the variety of tasks that health, health, state health government encompasses. It's it's rich rewarding work. It's not dull. It's not boring. It's not just bureaucracy. It's really a a wide variety, especially for public health. Nice thing I now that I work with Oregon Health Authority, is that Medicaid is housed within our state, the same agency, so that that opens up a whole new and people think Medicaid, they probably think ohh you know CMS government how can that be interesting but that's fascinating work. I mean, you know, Oregon is one of the first states to do social determinants of health. So, you can build Medicaid for housing services, nutrition services, employment services. To be on the frontline of that sort of work, that's fantastic. I mean, who wouldn't want to be on the frontline of that sort of work that you're actually using government to address health inequities, and it's those types of unique opportunities that state government offers that you don't get in academia and again for a given state health department, there is more variety. I'm very comfortable saying this, there's more variety in programs than there are in disciplines in an academic department. So, there's so much good work to be done, and yes, it's an acquired taste. It's very hierarchical. You know, it's very regimented and and chain chain chain of commands and things like that. But it's it's never dull or boring, especially on the public health side.

Lois Dankwa

Right. And it sounds like you get to be a direct part of implementation and just seeing things happen.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's, it's, it's, it's great. I mean and like I said, there's so much work, you know, going through COVID, you know, working for a state government during the COVID pandemic just a lot of great work that occurs and a lot of variety of work, a lot of different health departments do a lot of different things.

Lois Dankwa

Very, very good plug for health departments. I'm grateful for that and I I'm sure I'm a biased audience 

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, that's right. You're you're you're you're.

Lois Dankwa

because I think being in health policy and and I'm like I agree.

Lisa Wyman

This could be your future too. Yeah, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

I’m curious then what is something that's perhaps challenging about the space that you work in and the specific work that you do?

Lisa Wyman

I mean, I think the challenge is you know, there's a lot of rules to abide by for state government, a lot of policies, a lot of procedures. There's not a lot of room for improvisation, you know. Everything is very regimented. Hiring, for instance, you know that's a regimented steps. You don't just say, tell your friend, hey, I got a position for you. Come on board. I'll hire you. It's there's none of that. And I think the the type of networking academia goes through, you know, so and so knows so and so you know. And they and they, you know, or you know where Hopkins is hiring, you know, PhD graduates, direct pipeline to academia, you get into government work and it's very regimented. And you know, you know, when I was in Texas, for instance, you know, people would send me their resumes and I couldn't do anything with that, you know, even if they were the most wonderful candidate. Like there was no picking up the phone like, hey, come work for me. It was like OK you know you have to go through the same application process and then you know we have multiple rounds of interviews and reference checks and all this stuff that you know is is part of a machinery, you know, for state government. And like I said, it's not a bad thing. It's just an acquired taste, but once you kind of know the ropes, it's you can work within those parameters pretty well, yeah.

Lois Dankwa

Right, it the the process is it's it's funny because yes, there's a lot of different ingrained processes, but then also that's also kind of the point of government to make sure that there is ingrained.

Lisa Wyman

Yeah, and remember too, you know, this is public service work. It's it's tax dollars. You know we have a you know an obligation to use state funding and federal funding appropriately. You know, it's it's not a free for all. I mean we can't buy food, for instance, for a meeting and you know, it's things like that that I think academia is a little bit more loosey goosey over. But you get into state government work and it it's very regimented and like I said, but you know we're using tax dollars where we have to be stewards of public funding.

Lois Dankwa

I love that. So, I'm curious and you might have mentioned it a little bit I, but I wanna dig in to it a little bit more. You seem to have from the beginning just been really into just government work in general and I'm curious what drew you to it. Like what in the past made it appealing to you? What continues to be appealing to you? And how do you see yourself continuing to exist in government spaces?

Lisa Wyman

So yeah. So, I think you know I mentioned before, you know, I go back to my undergraduate days and you know I was a political science major. I was a biology major; you know, I was and the intersection between the two is what I was most interested in. So, you know, for instance, for my, not my dissertation, my senior thesis, you know, for political science. I did a whole thing on court cases involving HIV AIDS in the 1980s. So, I was just always interested in that intersection between how does government influence public health? And I think that that led me naturally to think about, you know, government public health work. And, you know, a really instrumental thing that I did was for my practicum, when I was working on my Master’s degree, I spent a summer with the Wyoming Department of Health and that's a very, very small health department, as you can imagine. It was a magical summer, you know, it was, it was wonderful. I got to see the West. I got to see Yellowstone National Park. I I saw this all this beauty in the West. But I also got my feet wet for, for, for for kind of learning about how state government works and I was kind of on the infectious disease side in that position. But you know, it was only four months, but it really got my feet wet and gave me a taste for government work and that that I saw that we were doing things that, you know, you don't get to do in academia. And I'll give you a great example. There was a rainbow family gathering. So, rainbow family is kind of like an alternative group of persons who once a year at least, back 20 years ago we would meet up kind of in the wilderness and have like a gathering and we had to put into place syndromic surveillance at on the site to make sure nobody was getting sick from foodborne illness, you know all the things you worry about when a lot of people gather in in the in the wilderness. This that sort of work, you don't get to do in academia. You know, you, you you don't get to be on the frontline of public health and you know, I knew going into my doctoral program, I wanted to be on that front line. I I think academia is wonderful, but I think it's once removed from really the action of public health and that that action, once you get a taste for that action about being able to work in a government setting that you're directly influencing public health policy and health decision making, that that, that, that's that's an addiction. I mean that you get a taste for that, that's what you want. I mean, you want to continue down that road so you know, I I I really see myself for the rest of my career being in that, that, that realm of state government public health work. You know, I I think it's where the action is. There's so much exciting work. I talked about the Medicaid labor for Oregon. You don't get to do that in academia. And that that, that's why I think it's it's, you know, think government public health can be can be very, very fascinating.

Lois Dankwa

Again, more great plugs for state public health work. So, I have two more questions for you and I know you gave some advice earlier about people taking advantage of their resources, but I'm curious, what advice would you give to someone who is interested in a career that looks like yours?

Lisa Wyman

You know get your feet wet. I mean, get out there, you know, go volunteer at the health department. I mean, you know, just just get your feet wet for for learning about, you know, you know spend 8 hours a week, you know at the Maryland Department of Health. I mean, there's so many opportunities just to get your feet wet, do an internship, you know, just just to just to get a flavor for the machinery and just see if you like it or not. Because if you don't like it, you know no problem. But if you do like it, you know you'll be able to to better aim your your job search for for government positions. So, it's not, you know, it's not so overwhelming then. I mean, my job search was was very focused on, you know, government work. And I think you know my advice would just be to get your feet wet, talk to people in health departments. They're more than happy to share their, you know, experiences and what they've learned. And again, it it's figuring out if if that's your. It's like I said, it's an acquired taste. Figure out if it tastes good to you, though, you know and and and see where that leads. And you know, if it does then then that really narrows your job search down to a specific you know area, which I think is is a, you know beneficial way instead of trying to you know, you know, send out your resume to to 20 different things.

Lois Dankwa

That's such that's such good advice. So, I'm curious as my last question, what inspires you right now?

Lisa Wyman

So, my one of my most inspiring things that I get to experience as a manager is is seeing people blossom, you know is is is seeing I see a lot of young analysts come out of master’s program and you know it’s immensely rewarding to see them blossom and and really dedicate themselves to state government work. That's immensely rewarding and inspiring to inspiring to me to see their inspiration that they come into this work and they realize they love it. And this is what they want to do and then you know they're they're they're on a career path now. I love seeing that. I it inspires me to be able to give development opportunities to my team. I love internal promotions. I love seeing people grow in their careers, immensely rewarding as a manager. Very rewarding to see masters of, you know, people with masters in epidemiology especially decide to stick with government public health and and find their find their niche and continue on in that work. That's inspiring to me to to know that the next generation of public health workers are being fostered for state government public health. So that's inspiring to me, absolutely.

Lois Dankwa

Right. It it provides some hope that the good work will continue onwards.

Lisa Wyman

Exactly. The next generation is is coming up. So yeah, that's always and like I said, I love nothing more than internal promotion. I love seeing my team grow and and move up to higher positions.

Lois Dankwa

I love that, Lisa, this has been such a wonderful chat. It's been so nice to hear a little bit about your perspective and the things that brought you to this moment.

Lisa Wyman

OK. Well, thanks so much, Lois. Have a great day.