Dr. Ela Warnecke, PhD in Psychological & Brain Sciences | Research Scientist at Meta

In this episode, we discuss Ela’s unexpected path to pursuing a PhD in Psychological and Brain Sciences at Johns Hopkins and her doctoral work on acoustics and bat echolocation, the important roles of both mentorship and networking in influencing her academic and professional trajectories, and her experience unlearning the pressures and work habits of academia after transitioning into industry and embracing a happier and healthier work/life balance. 

Hosted by Lois Dankwa

To connect with Ela and to learn more about her story, visit her page on the PHutures #100AlumniVoices Project website.

Transcript

Lois Dankwa

Hi. I'm co-host Lois Dankwa and this is the 100 Alumni Voices Podcast, stories that inspire, where we explore the personal and professional journeys of a diverse group of 100 doctoral alumni from Johns Hopkins University. Today, we're joined by Ela Warnecke, PhD in psychological and brain sciences and current research scientist at Meta. Hi Ela.

Ela Warnecke

Hey, Lois, how's it going?

Lois Dankwa

I’m good. How are you today?

Ela Warnecke

I'm good. Thank you.

Lois Dankwa

Well, I'm excited to have you join us today and excited to kind of dive in and learn more about you. So, I want to start by hearing first about what made you interested in pursuing a PhD in psychological and Brain Sciences, and then also just more about your graduate work at Hopkins in general.

Ela Warnecke

I think I'm one of those people who sort of accidentally stumbled into what they're doing today. I I I come from a line of like, no one in my family had done any college before. And so, it was really new to me to kind of explore like what, what is college all about? What can I do with this experience? And during that time, I did an internship at a lab in the United States. I'm originally from Germany and that was really my first exposure to research. And I really got along well with the people in the lab and they invited me back after I graduated my undergrad in Germany to come back and work with them. And this was my first exposure to research. I was a lab assistant, a research assistant in that lab and I realized at some point that I was doing what a graduate student would be doing. But I wasn't working towards a degree with it, and so my my mentors at that university really encouraged me to think about Graduate School and suggested a couple of places. Hopkins specifically for me, was of interest because I was kind of going for the type of research I wanted to do, which which was in in acoustics and bat echolocation. And there's only, like, you know, two handful of labs in the world that kind of do this thing. And and my mentors were like, look, there's a lab that's moving to Hopkins that that you should consider and talk to the PI. And so, I talked to the PI and she was she was really great. I got along with her well, and it was my first kind of, yeah, my first stepping stone into doing a a different type of research on the same animal model I had been doing kind of training bats to sit on a platform and perform certain tasks, and I wanted to make it a little more natural and have them fly around and make their own decisions instead of training them to do things. And this lab was allowing me to do that. So, I was I was really excited to to join join Hopkins and and be able to do that. So yeah, that's kind of how I how I ended up. It was really just a string of decisions and and mentors suggesting things to me and I just happened to love all of it.

Lois Dankwa

That's so cool, and it's definitely an experience I think a lot of us can identify with, with kind of stumbling into the moment that you're in now, where it's like, I really didn't plan this version for myself.

Ela Warnecke

Yeah, every now and then I look back and I think you know if if and just knowing now how, like college and Graduate School works not even knowing what I know about my own background knowledge now, would I choose the same thing? And I'm not sure that I would. I think I would probably do something a little more creative. I may even just, you know, go for something more engineeringy where I can, like build things. But I I just happened to be good at what I do and I happen to really enjoy it and sometimes I don't know if it's our, you know, our interests, that kind of shape where we go or if where we go by stumbling into it also shapes our interests in a way and so you know things that I look out for now are like, how do people's ears look? And like how do they hear things? And I asked them about their experiences with audio, even though, you know, 15 years ago, I would have never been interested in this kind of thing. So, it's just funny how things work sometimes.

Lois Dankwa

That's that's absolutely hilarious. Mainly because you specifically you looking at how people's ears look mainly because I have very small ears and so does everyone in my family. So, to know that there are people looking at my ears great to know.

Ela Warnecke

But only for scientific reasons, you know. There's, like you hear sounds very differently than I do because your ears have a different shape and so I always wonder when I see someone’s ear like oh, they have a big concha which is kind of like this big like round thing in your ear or they have a generally bigger or smaller ear. I wonder how they perceive their world. Like how do they hear the things I hear differently? And it's just so fascinating to me to think about that. But I know that most people are probably falling asleep right now just listening to me. So, we can move on from the ears.

Lois Dankwa

So, I'm curious, so kind of on the note of stumbling into what you're doing, but then having it work out in a really cool way, I feel like the moment kind of when someone is looking for their next role after Graduate School or in a postdoc moment or any type of transition moment, it feels like a new beginning again, and it's hard to identify what you're interested in because there's so many possibilities and it sounds like, yes, you stumbled into this all of this moment at large, but at the same time, something made you interested in joining that lab in the 1st place. And I'm I'm curious how you figured those pieces out.

Ela Warnecke

Yeah, I guess that's true. I think I always knew that language-y sound-y things were something I was interested in very early on. Like when I was, you know, in high school I thought I would do I would become a doctor and then do medicine for whatever reasons. But as I was studying in college, just at classes on biology and neurobiology and on computational linguistics that I was taking, I got a I have an undergrad in cognitive science, so a lot of it kind of focused on on those things. They were just interesting to me. I thought it was super interesting how the ear works. So, I guess you know when I applied for internships while I was still in college, they were all two labs that kind of did things with hearing or with sound. So they were, you know, like labs that worked with mice and looked at vocalizations or bats and looked at echolocation patterns or with humans and and hearing aid cochlear implant research. So, I guess they were all kind of involved in the topic of hearing or the topic of sound, but I really didn't know, you know, like the kind of funny ways that that things would go and that they have gone since then. And yeah, I think it's right that there was a bit of stumbling involved and you know, if I had had different mentors, I may not have gotten the PhD I did. I may not have gotten a PhD at all, and I may have focused on a different type of research. But as I went along in my Graduate School and then moved on from Graduate School to later positions, I think it got less stumbly. Some of it in my experience was still, you know, being at the right place at the right time in the right place at the right time. But there was a little bit more of, OK, like I've done this thing now. I know I have like these options. Which of them would be most fruitful? Which of them would be making me most happy? And and kind of trying to go along those lines, which was a little less confusing than in the beginning when you're just like, OK, I have a degree now. Like what do I do?

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, and that makes sense. So, I'm I'm curious then. Well, so I love that you mentioned how it's you noticed kind of the thread that was continuing in your interest and that guided you quite a bit. And I'm curious then, how that continued thread that you noticed informed how you envisioned what your career might look like after your program. Like what did you see yourself doing in your program and etcetera?

Ela Warnecke

I think when I first—not I think—I know when I first started Graduate School, I saw myself in academia forever. I think many of us who start PhDs know this feeling. You know, you talk to your advisor or to your mentor and they unless you're in a very typical field where doing internships in industry or you know spending time in an industry position over the summer is common, we are often encouraged to stay in academia, to become professors, to become, you know, adjunct professors or or teachers at at colleges. That's just kind of what we do because that's what our mentors do and that's kind of what they what they teach us is a valuable skill to have and a valuable life to live to live. And I and I absolutely agree with that. But I think that's also where my first thought came from. Like I I thought I would be a professor and that that was the life I wanted, and it it took a little while for me to figure out actually there are other options and I think there are things about the professor life that I have seen lived by my mentors that I don't enjoy all that. And over the years, as I, you know, progressed through Graduate School, my perception of that kind of changed. And I tried to get a little bit more of an idea of if I did want to change my career, if I did not want to stay in academia, what would I need to do in order to get there? And that was kind of really the stepping stone of thinking about what other careers are there out there and what kind of, you know, requirements are there for me additionally to just spending, you know, like 25 years of my life or 30 years of my life in school to kind of, yeah, be be a valuable candidate for those types of jobs.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, the exposure is such a huge piece, it seems. I mean, from the beginning, exposure is something we all experience in different ways. But even something as small as just knowing certain career options exist is so essential.

Ela Warnecke

Yeah, and. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Lois Dankwa

No, no, no, no. I want you to finish.

Ela Warnecke

So, what you just said certain career options exist that is like such an important point because even though career options exist, you may not know about it, or you may think, or at least I oftentimes thought, but my stuff is so niche. Who could hire me with the knowledge that I have? Like I have a PhD looking how looking at how echolocating bats perceive their environment and turn that into action and change their echolocation and flight behavior. Like how could I ever apply this knowledge in a company or in a different research setting unless that research industry looks at, you know, underwater sonar vehicle navigation or in-flight sonar vehicle navigation, that kind of thing? So, I never imagined that the skills I have could be applicable to a position that isn't entirely related to sonar or radar and as such it was really difficult for me to know what's out there. Like it just I didn't look at jobs that didn't include the word sonar or radar because I didn't think that I have skills valuable enough for other types of jobs.

Lois Dankwa

Yeah, it can be so intimidating to to, I think especially someone that's pursuing a doctorate, it could be really difficult to apply to something or build up the confidence to apply to something that you do not seem like a good fit for. And I'm curious, I'm curious on how you how you navigated like kind of thinking about ways that you'll exist differently or how you notice the greater applicability of what your specific skill set was? Like, did you talk to people? Like how did you find what worked for you?

Ela Warnecke

I think the very first time that I realized things I know might be useful in an industry I didn't think would hire me is when I was attending a conference of the Acoustical Society of America. They have a program called SMMFL, which stands for students meet members for lunch. And so basically, they connect students who are presenting at the conference with full members at the conference. And these Members can be from they can be, you know, university professors or people who work in government or industry areas. And then you just like, go to lunch with them. You just hang out for an hour. You talk about whatever comes to your mind, and I happened to get paired with someone who worked at the time at a company called Oculus that was creating kind of virtual reality displays. And they also had a PhD in acoustics in in room acoustics. So, they were looking at how do sounds bounce around in in an environment and how is that different in a church than a classroom than a living room kind of thing. And when I talk with them, they were the first to say the skills you have that aren't radar or sonar specific, but just your knowledge of acoustics and your knowledge of how to evaluate acoustics, how to do statistics, what a valid experiment is and what isn't, and the kinds of things you have to think about to create an experiment, those are skills that are useful to this industry because we're trying to do X and in order to do that, we need someone who knows the things you do. So don't ever think your skills are useless. And they were also very good at pointing me at reminding me that other things the PhD teaches you are things like discipline and holding out on things and patience, but also being meticulous and yeah, just being able to solve really difficult puzzles yourself, which isn't isn't always the case.

Lois Dankwa

I'm glad that you received that advice and that you're sharing it again because it's so important to kind of, even if you're not someone who necessarily does interdisciplinary work, it's important to think about, OK, well, if I don't want to do something so narrow, like my dissertation, finding the places where you can plug in and enjoy yourself in that space. And something that you mentioned earlier when you were talking about kind of academia and how you noticed that aspects of the professor life were not something you were interested in, it makes me think about how so I know people talk about work life balance, but I'm thinking more about kind of the placement that whatever your job is has and the life that you want to live, and I'm curious how some of that guided what you saw yourself doing and how you made choices for your career.

Ela Warnecke

So, I think as I moved further in my graduate education, I became someone who just really wanted to do all the things right all the time. And it led to a lot of late-night hours, which I think a lot of PhDs experience, right. You are in a very competitive field. You're doing something that only 2% of the American population do. And you're really good at what you do and you want to show that you're really good at what you do. So, you put a lot of hours in and that means replying to emails all the time when you can. And it means attending meetings on weekends and on other times, and even when you're on vacation, it might mean that you checked your emails. And I think for me, that was just normal. That was just how life is. Also, because from my mentors I was lucky to have someone who always replied to an e-mail when I had a question. It was great because even when I was say in a different country or she was in a different country, I would always get an answer really quickly. But it also showed me a way of life where I thought wow, that means if I ever become a professor I also have or I should be available as soon as possible because someone is depending on me. I need to give advice to someone. And I want to be able to do that, so I need to be able to be. And I think as Graduate School went on, I realized that it's taking a bit of a toll on like my mental health and on just me. For example, being on vacation and feeling like it's OK to be on vacation and it's OK not to, you know, respond to an E-mail right away or not to think about how bats echolocate for hours at a time. So, I I started to feel bad about thinking it's OK and that was a first step where I thought I think that's not something I like in my life. I think I would like it to be OK that I don't think about bats for two hours. And so, as I moved out of out of Graduate School into postdoc work, I tried to I tried to change my way of thinking a little bit and it worked. I I think I had pretty good work week and weekends but the you know the inner feeling of I need to be available is always there. I think it it's really hard to kind of shake that. And as I move from postdoc to industry work, it was made very clear to people that I worked with that they're they do want me to stay away from my laptop when I'm not in work hours and they do want me to take those mental breaks and to take actual weekends and vacations. And it was was encouraged by my coworkers saying, oh my god, I made this amazing sourdough over the weekend and it took me 3 days to do and sending pictures and making me understand that they really did take time and it took me, I would say a good like three or four months in the beginning of my industry job to not check my phone on the weekends or not I don't know just do another little thing on a Saturday just to show that I can, that I can do it and that I'm like super involved. And at this point I would say I am the most mentally healthy, I have been in a long, long time because I truly take all my weekends, all my weekday evenings I when I'm on vacation, I close my laptop and I forget what an HRTF is or how acoustics work, except that I still look at people's ears. But I would say that you know, work life balance for me has improved significantly and that it has just improved my outlook on life and how I structure my life and the things I am able to do now outside of work. You know the time for it has increased and so I'm much happier that way.

Lois Dankwa

That's really good to hear. And it's so encouraging to have you kind of describe how you noticed how a different approach to working just didn't work for you or how it was creating so much pressure that was unsettling for you. And it makes me, so I have two more questions for you. And the first is so, I'm curious how—or no—I'm curious what advice then you would have for someone who's interested in a career that looks like yours, or perhaps approaching their career in the same way that you've approached your career?

Ela Warnecke

The most important thing I learned is connections, networking and connections. So, I think I mentioned before that my previous job, I never thought I would be able to get. It's one of those things where you say ohh yeah you can get it because you have all of these qualifications. But I would never match that same kind of profile and I think one way that helped me understand I may match that profile too is by talking to someone who was already in that profile or at that company and had connections to other conferences that I was going to. So, they were a stepping stone for me to understand how I could fit into that company. But they were also, most importantly, a person who helped me get this job. They encouraged me to apply for a position. They encouraged me when I was unsure that I would be a good fit and help me kind of verbalize where my strengths lie for the specific position, and once I had a position in this in this industry, I learned that there are connections to all the other industries and all the other research institutes. And people know each other in these ways, and that's how you start to get a next position and a next position. So, it really is a lot about connections and I would recommend that going to a conference and not just talking to people who are in other labs, but also people who are, you know, they are at the conference to showcase maybe a product. Talk to them and then add them on LinkedIn and kind of make a connection with someone who is a step away from where you think you want to go one day. But who can help you get there by giving you advice on how to model your CV or how to talk about your research, not from an academic standpoint, but from a product or from research in the in-industry standpoint. Because that's the first thing to learn that you can you can advertise yourself in a different way by using other words, but describing still what you're doing, and that was really, I think the biggest thing for me to learn that way of talking about my research and my interests.

Lois Dankwa

That's such a good point. Connections, but not just the ones that are obvious and that are reachable, but the ones that are, that seem like a stretch cause those could be the most helpful in certain moments. 

Ela Warnecke

Yeah, absolutely.

Lois Dankwa

So, I am curious as my last question, what inspires you right now?

Ela Warnecke

I think I am I I am an audio tech. There is not a lot of women in audio tech and one thing that inspires me is that I am one of four women on my team. And it is incredibly inspiring, inspiring to see some of these women kind of plow through and make sure that I can get the next position too. So, it's been a wonderful thing for me to see that just by trying to help me, I was able to help others. So, I have been able to encourage other people doing an internship with companies. I have been able to do some outreach locally and teach more about audio things. And there's a local high school here that I go to where people have been just very interested in the kinds of things we do and I feel like it's been a really great way to see the potential of interest in in the kinds of things we do and I'm hoping that that will, you know, trigger some kind of change in how people think about audio tech, or in general, what they can achieve in their lives. And that's been inspiring to me just to see someone is doing something for me. And even as like a little worker bee as I am, I may be able to also do something for someone else. And actually, that is it's funny that's something that started at Hopkins. There is a like a CTY program at Hopkins that I used to participate in. And it was the same kind of idea where you were trying to teach a younger generation about all the potential of of things that's out there. So, I'm yeah, I think it's the kind of paying it forward situation is one of the most inspiring things you can do.

Lois Dankwa

Oh yeah, I totally understand that it's being a part of the process of everyone trying to contribute some way to the world. Ela, it's been so wonderful to chat with you and just hear and learn more about your experiences today. So, thanks so much.

Ela Warnecke

Thank you so much, Lois. It's been a really wonderful experience chatting with you as well.