Matt Peiken: Let me ask you, were the issues back in 2013 the same as they're talking about now, primarily around street issues whether it's public safety or trash on the street? Those seem to be the topics du jour with this current proposal. What was happening back in 2013?
Rebecca Hecht: I think that we were recognizing that we had something special in downtown. The goal of the BID then was to keep Asheville clean, green, and safe. And so we had maybe some small issues with the homelessness and things like that, but they weren't out of control. What we were trying to do was maintain what had been built through the revitalization process in the 90s and to grow on that.
And I think now, ten years later, It's no longer keep Asheville clean, green, and safe. And we've actually even eliminated the green, and it's now make Asheville safe again. So now it's, I think, more intense with the mental health struggles and the houseless population, that there's just more and that the issues are more deep and intense with People having crisis is on the street more often.
Susan Griffin: I think at the time we had still the downtown police substation. They were essentially doing what ambassadors would do. They were out on bikes. They knew everyone. They Engaged with people, tried to help people. It was a very Organic thing that was happening with the city police force at the time.
I think that's not the same. Now. We obviously don't have a downtown police force in any was not stationed here and also understaffed. And as the problems have grown, we need more than just police. We need community responders and neither the county nor the city now have that kind of Resource.
Matt Peiken: Yeah. So before we move into the present day, what happened to the 2013 effort? You alluded to this both of you Rebecca and Susan that you know, talk has gone back at least from what I understand to the 80s of having a business improvement district. What happened in 2013 to scuttle any BID from actually happening?
Susan Griffin: Frankly, the mayor tanked it the last day.
Matt Peiken: Why? Do you know?
Susan Griffin: I'm sure there were reasons behind the reason she gave us, but she called us into a meeting right before the council meeting and said I can't vote for this unless you add a sidewalk initiative to it.
The city had just gotten, I forget, a 2 million something like that cost analysis for fixing up sidewalks. And she wanted the BID to do it. Our budget was like 450, 000, something like that. We were nowhere near in any position to do that. And it was also questionable whether we could even do that.
Matt Peiken: Now, all of you are here to voice some concern or criticism around the current proposal. I'm wondering. Whenever BIDs have bubbled up, the possibility of a business improvement district going through, has there been a groundswell, an undercurrent of opposition to it at every turn?
Karen, you're nodding your head.
Karen Ramshaw: Yeah, I think just as there are today, there were concerns back then that the ambassador program could be used to make it so that downtown wasn't welcoming to some people and I think that same concern is there today. One of the many reasons I feel this particular BID shouldn't go through Is because I really feel like we need to have more detail as to how that worked and also back in 2012 2013, we did have a downtown Police force.
And while I think some folks have this idea that the police are just out there harassing vulnerable people, they were huge allies both for the business community, the downtown residents and for the folks who are struggling because they had received a lot of training. They worked with R. H. A. They really understood what the resources were.
Because they were all stationed downtown, they really knew the folks that they were encountering. And so when they responded, they knew so and so's not taking his meds or wow, did you just got your check and you are really wasted and you really just need to dry out or something's going on. Let's get you a sandwich.
Because I managed properties downtown, and so I was out every day walking around, and a lot of times I would call them. If there was somebody that I thought I could approach, I would, but there were times when I was like, I don't think so. And I would call and say, this guy is really having a hard time. I think he's gonna hurt himself and within five minutes, there would be an officer there.
They were really kind and they knew what to do. And we have lost that when we lost our community policing. And I do think as Rebecca said, a lot of the problems we have now with the addiction and with mental health are a lot more severe now. And so having more community responders is critical. And frankly, the county should be providing those.
Matt Peiken: Yeah, let's drill into the ambassador program because that seems to be the most concerning part of this for the people who are raising concern.
The language in the proposed BID talks about it's quote To address and or report any activities deemed to be out of the ordinary. Right there, that seems very subjective reporting crimes, disturbances or code violations to the police. Or code enforcement departments as appropriate, proactively engaging with people in violation of pertinent ordinances or unacceptable public behavior. Who determines what is acceptable or unacceptable public behavior.
Susan and Karen, Rebecca, you have spoken to this at this point that the police used to have an outsized presence in downtown that it no longer has. On the surface of this. Correct me if I'm seeing this wrong. That if the police were adequately staffed, there would be no need for an ambassador program.
Not that there is a need, there wouldn't be any need for a supplemental force out there.
Susan Griffin: I think that's to a great extent true. I think the community policing that was happening 10, 15 years ago essentially stood in for an ambassador force. I do still believe now there is a, the great need for community responders.
I, I think that was not as obvious or as evident then. But I definitely think that's needed now. Then, the community police force would have been enough. Now, it's not going to be enough.
Matt Peiken: Yeah And Karen you talked about training. Whether you are critical of certain police practices or not, there's a certain training involved.
It's not clear What training these ambassadors would have, where they would come from, who they are accountable to. Patrick, we haven't heard from you yet. You come to this through sunshine labs, a relatively new outfit that you've started in 2023. It started, correct? And it's around government accountability.
So I see this ambassador program as one of the pieces of, I guess evidence or something that would alarm you as somebody who's coming at this from a position of government accountability.
Patrick Conant: Yes. Yeah. The main questions I have is if you check the feasibility study you can see all of the research and outreach that the chamber conducted along with the consultant.
And you can look at the priorities that downtown stakeholders identified as part of that process. And that included things like enforcing existing laws, bringing back the downtown police force bike and walking patrols. But the solution proposed are these downtown ambassadors. So the big question for me is these ambassadors seem designed to generate calls for service. But who is going to answer the call?
Matt Peiken: You said I want to pick on that, That they're designed to bring about calls for service. Expound on that a little bit. What do you mean?
Patrick Conant: Yeah, if you read some of the descriptions of how the ambassador program would work, their role is to hand off needs to other agencies downtown. Like many things in the city and county, it's like we've got half of the program figured out and a big gap on the other side.
So the big question I have is just Who are they going to call to come help? And does the city and county have programs in place to send the right person to respond to those needs?
Matt Peiken: Also, it seems to be on the surface of it, a spy force in a way, like the eyes and ears where police can't be. And let's be clear.
If the police are down, what I understand after talking with a Chief Lamb, they're down about 25 percent of their budgeted police force that. Okay, if there's some things going on that, they want people to call in if there's some issues that they aren't able to witness on the surface of that, okay, I get that, but it seems to be that the benefit of the doubt would go to these ambassadors when there's such a subjectivity here over what merits a call.
Susan Griffin: I really feel that this has a danger becoming a whack a mole program, because it is so subjective about who they can engage with. There's a lot of evidence that ambassadors are very good at saying, Move along. And where are they moving to? What has changed, except you've moved a problem from this corner to that corner?
I'm very cynical about that, but I think without the real resources backing it up, that's the best they can do.
Matt Peiken: Some criticism of this is that this is just another way to eradicate the homeless from downtown.
That if ambassadors believe that just the mere presence of homeless people sleeping on a sidewalk or out in a doorway being present, that in itself could be one of these subjective violations, disturbances that gets reported.
Karen Ramshaw: I think that's one of the reasons I wanna see real detail exactly how it work, who they would call.
Because the problem is folks who are dealing with mental illness, folks who dealing with houselessness folks who are having some sort of narcotic crisis or whatever .They need actual services. They do not need a nice person in an official vest. That's not helpful.
That's harassment And my other concern is for the ambassadors themselves. I think everybody who you know has a business or lives downtown or works downtown You know over the years you do see things that you know I've regularly made decisions. Oh, this somebody needs to come.
This person is going to be hurt. And there aren't a lot of options. The city has one person. So 40 hours a week where you can call and they're trained to deal with mental illness, but it's, is he working that day? Is he available when you call? And so then you end up calling the police because they're the only ones that show up.
Matt Peiken: Susan, you said in your note to me you said you feel that the ambassador program is going to be quote expensive window dressing and that you want to see an emphasis on the clean and green aspect, which you said was missing or not fully formed in 2013.
Expound on that a little bit more. Yeah.
Susan Griffin: Actually, the other way around in 2013, we were limited to a clean program for the first two years of the BID, right? You said the
Matt Peiken: green didn't exist, right?
Susan Griffin: It's just going to be a clean program. And then it was phasing in an ambassador program. I would like to follow up on the ambassador issue, though.
Sure. Ambassadors. This is a program that was developed years and years ago. It works in towns that Already function well, but are beginning to grow and experiencing some growing pains. It would have worked in, for example, think of Asheville in 2000. We were just beginning to grow. An ambassador program would have been great. Ambassadors are great at engaging with tourists and really, that's where the program started.
How to help tourists find businesses. I think even in 2013, we were functional enough as a city that ambassadors could help. That would be a bonus For businesses if they can thrive, residents and other stakeholders downtown can thrive too. I think now we're not seeing that .We're starting with a dysfunctional resource system and the ambassadors just are not the tool for that.
Karen Ramshaw: One of the things that Those of us who are vested and invested in downtown have seen is that downtown has grown. The value of downtown has doubled since the 2013. We have South Slope, which didn't even exist in 2013. And so we are throwing off a lot of money both to the city and especially to the county with not just property taxes, but sales taxes. And yet we have fewer services.
And in fact in the baseline services a section of the current BID proposal, Security is set at 55 Of what we had in 2020. Where is the money going? And I know a lot of people feel oh I don't want to spend more money. Downtown is for tourists. Downtown is also for local businesses.
Downtown is for local residents. And, because it is what it is, downtown is also the home of most of the services for the most vulnerable parts of our community's population. These are not downtown's houseless. These are not downtown's mentally ill. They belong to all of us. And to ask a small part of the community To take on the load for the rest of you is just not appropriate.
Matt Peiken: Before we get more into the cost of everything, Patrick you had talked about how you felt the BID Is catering to the tourist element and that you worry This could be a stepping stone for BIDs to also happen in the river arts district and west Asheville to also cater more to a tourism element at the Expense or neglect of locals. Am I phrasing that correctly?
Patrick Conant: Yeah, I think you've got that Correct, and I will just say I live in west Asheville And I initially started following the chamber's efforts to conduct these feasibility studies because they were initially looking to establish a BID Downtown in the River Arts District and West Asheville along Haywood Road. And in fact, it seems like they even explored creating a super BID that connected all three. Luckily the consultant Pushed them away from that idea. But I think when you look at how a BID is being discussed and developed for downtown, As a West Asheville resident I say is this the same model we're going to put on my part of town.
And just to circle back on the ambassador program, I did want to share as a West Asheville resident, I agree that our city generally centralizes services for homelessness for mental health downtown. And I think one of the challenges in our city over the next 10 years is how we distribute that burden, distribute those services throughout the city, not all in any one neighborhood, but allow every neighborhood to play their part.
And I worry that the ambassador program, if it has the effect of displacing people from downtown, will only heighten tensions in every other neighborhood in the city, which seems like the opposite direction we need to go. We need everyone to play their part. We don't need certain neighborhoods to push people with needs out to other surrounding communities.
Matt Peiken: Yeah. Karen, you wanted to say something?
Karen Ramshaw: Yeah. I know we've been talking a lot about the ambassador program, which is concerning. But I think one of the other issues I have with the current BID proposal is who was included in the conversations and the decision making.
Matt Peiken: You mean the conversations that shaped the current BID proposal?
Karen Ramshaw: And I know they worked really hard. I know that people sent lots of emails and offers for surveys and offers for meetings. But one of the things I found in the 2013 or 2012 interim BID packet was there's outreach strategy. And there was this concerted effort with the first BID to really go talk to people.
One of the things they have was residents who, I think there wasn't one resident on the steering committee who, I'm sorry, lives in a very nice building. I think they talked to DARN, which is less than a hundred members and is certainly not the folks who live in the workforce housing.
Matt Peiken: Who is DARN?
Susan Griffin: Downtown Asheville residential neighborhood.
Matt Peiken: Okay.
Susan Griffin: I was co founder back in 04. It was basically formed at the time to get people who were just beginning there were some residents downtown, but a lot more were coming in to get them to know each other. It's a social organization. It also had an element of education, but it was never meant to be a political advocacy group.
Matt Peiken: Got it. Karen, you want to continue?
Karen Ramshaw: Yeah, just one of the things I saw on their list was they wanted to get what they called a block captain in every residential building downtown Who would be responsible for going and talking to all the residents, so they understood what the BID might or might not do, what it would mean for them, because even though They talk a lot about the property taxes, which are imposed on the property owner, the property owner You Passes that on to the people in the building, either the commercial tenants through a triple net lease where they automatically get the jump or if you're a renter over time, if the cost of operating the building goes up, your rent is going up, and those folks needed to be included as well.
And then finally, there are a lot of small businesses that Really make downtown special. They're two people, three people, four people. They do not have time to go to meetings. They are not members of the chamber. They may not be members of ADA because they don't have time to participate and they don't see the value and nobody went out and went up and down downtown, which is not that big, to talk to folks and see what are their issues. What are their concerns? What you know? Are they in a position to contribute because the other thing we haven't talked about is the fact that downtown property taxes are already really high when compared with other parts of the city. The valuations always go up way more than they do in other parts of the city.
We know they're going up This year. We know the city is planning on passing that 75 million dollar bond, And so it just seems like we're asking a lot. And I ran into a business owner. This business has been downtown for decades. It's a great business caters mostly to locals And it looks successful, but I ran into the owner who was walking to their second job. And so The kids are not all right, and we just need to do better.
Matt Peiken: Rebecca, you are a business owner, small business owner. You've been in downtown for a couple of decades. Talk about your intersection as BIDs came up and quelled and rose and the talk of it. How were you brought in to any of these conversations or your opinion sought out, even to the current proposal?
Yeah.
Rebecca Hecht: Originally I was on the downtown association board and the downtown commission, so I was also serving on the BID subcommittee at that time when we were exploring that 10 years ago, and I feel like I was included as a tenant representative because at that time I wasn't a property owner and someone Maybe on the more like leftist, progressive side of the spectrum then.
And I was one of the biggest cheerleaders at that time of the BID. I knew that it would affect my rent eventually at the next lease signing, but I saw a lot of value in it. And as a business owner this time, I can tell you that multiple neighbors that we spoke to on Wall Street were not aware of the process this time.
I was one of the people as a tenant who would go up and down Lexington Avenue to every business and drop off a piece of paper face to face to try and talk to people. I have not seen that happen at all this time. The whole process this time seems way less transparent, way less inclusive. We were told by another business, it's not really like someone reached out and was like, Oh, you were involved last time, would you like to be involved this time?
Or what do you think? Or really anything. And like I said, multiple people that we've talked to weren't even aware that this was happening.
Matt Peiken: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like in the past you were in favor of it. Now you have concerns. Are these concerns primarily because of the lack of transparency?
Or are there other specific elements of what you've seen in the BID proposal now that you are aware of it that raise your alarms that weren't raised 11 years ago?
Rebecca Hecht: So many alarms this time. It hasn't been transparent. I don't think it's inclusive either by the property size or business size that you own.
I don't think it's in any way economically diverse, racially diverse. I can't really see spending my tax money on chasing this whole issue around with ambassadors without including some serious collaboration with the community medic program. I think that they should be working together hand in hand.
I don't think that it's been really clear as far as the chamber is trying to put in a bid to manage the whole process. There's millions and millions more dollars on the table now, like they said, twice as much money here to be used and managed as there was back then. And the chamber really had no interest in being involved before.
I can't really see paying this tax money where the city keeps coming to downtown hat in hand, asking for more when High demand neighborhoods all over town, South Slope, West Asheville, Biltmore Village are not paying for parking. There's money sitting right there on the table that they could be collecting.
That they're coming to us first, again. And guess what? All the parking downtown originally, the money was supposed to go back to investing in parking downtown. And now all of that money is being siphoned off to greenways and transit throughout the city, which I support. However, the rest of the city should also be buying in to this parking program.
Matt Peiken: One of the things that talking about the money and this may seem In the overall scheme of things a trivial amount of money, but the chamber is asking to be reimbursed For its consultant fees when it put in a hundred and fifty thousand dollars There is budgeted to be reimbursed over the course of this program.
So that raises, I know a number of you have raised your hands as red flags about that part of it.
Rebecca Hecht: That's alarming. You know why? Because they're not included in the BID boundaries. So they're not actually buying into any of this and paying for it themselves either.
And they're coming in and wanting to manage, take the money, get reimbursed. And then they're not even actually contributing to it anyway. Like What?
Susan Griffin: Additionally, they initiated hiring this consultant. It was at their initiative. BID constituents did not ask for this to be done.
They initiated it and now they want big constituents who had no say in it. I find that to be so abusive. It also, I didn't realize this until one of the very few meetings they had, which was not actually a input meeting. It was a we're going to tell you what we're going to do meeting.
And somebody asked the question, are you really asking to be paid back for your consultant's fees? Quick yes, close of the meeting. Just my hackles went up. It's just so wrong. Again, not being in the BID boundaries, they could voluntarily contribute to the BID. And if they want to collaborate, that's what they do.
But they're not. And I just find that so egregiously wrong.