College sports are cooked

Money changed the mood of college sports, but not the way most people think. We go past the headlines to map how NIL actually moves: loose rules, third-party collectives, and contracts that look friendly until the fine print bites. With D-Rock in the chair, we lay out where the system drifted from its promise and how athletes, coaches, and fans can bring it back to sanity.

We start with what NIL was supposed to be—fair pay for real value—then confront the modern reality: predatory clauses, uncapped agent commissions, and deals tied to playing time an athlete doesn’t control. The transfer portal adds gasoline, enticing stars to “test the market” only to find fewer offers than promised. We also tackle the imbalance between power programs and small schools that develop talent just to lose it, and the tension inside athletic departments where football eats first and everyone else scrambles for scraps.

The conversation sharpens around women’s sports. Postseason softball often outdraws men’s baseball, yet NIL dollars still favor men. Why? Media habits, legacy revenue streams, and historical bias. We highlight outliers like Caitlin Clark and Livvy Dunn, who turned consistent, skill-forward marketing into seven-figure leverage, and we call out the pressure on female athletes to chase clicks instead of craft. The fix isn’t a slogan—it’s a playbook: equal production value, prime slots, athlete-led storytelling, and fans who show up with wallets, not just retweets.

If you’re an athlete, we give you actionable guardrails: never sign without legal review, cap commissions, define deliverables you can control, add clean exit clauses, and diversify across multiple smaller deals. Set up an LLC, plan for taxes, insure your body, and build a brand that survives a slump or a benching. If you’re a coach or brand, align incentives so performance—not noise—wins. And if you’re a fan, vote with attention and dollars for the games and athletes you say you love.

Subscribe for more straight talk on sports, business, and the mindset that turns opportunity into longevity. If this episode challenged you or helped a player you know, share it and leave a review—your support helps more athletes get smarter about NIL.

Transcript

Opening Banter & Guest Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:05

You're listening to the No Shot Podcast, where we discuss sports, true stories, and mental health. Brought to you by True Victory Apparel and Radio Influence. Let's get after it.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Welcome back to the No Shop Podcast. I'm your host, Santa, here with my co-host, T Mike and A-Town.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

What's going on, America? Hey, it's the No Shop Podcast, and we are back for another amazing episode. In fact, this episode's gonna be intense. No why? No why, guys? No why? Why? Because we bring up special guests, Dream Sugar. We got D-Rock on the coming up for you, boy.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

What's going on, T Mike? What's going on? I'm so happy to be here, guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So we're we're jazzed enough to bring D Rock on. Actually, for the next couple episodes, he's gonna be an integral part in regards to discussing a topic that all of America is talking about. And once again, that is In LDL.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Pay me.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Money. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Lots and lots of money. Lots and lots of money. I won't in the sky. Oh, he knew the lyrics. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I don't know what that is. Of course you don't. Did we just show our age? Oh no. We just showed Santa has no swag. But with that in mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

What do you mean I'm wearing the leather jacket? 80-degree in the weather.

NIL’s Promise Versus Today’s Reality

SPEAKER_01 1:39

In 80-degree weather, the family's wearing a leather jacket. So with that in mind, we are going back into the world of NIL on this episode. And I'm telling you, the NIL world has changed so dramatically in just the last two years, it's unreal. What do you think about that, D-Rock? What we got?

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Man, I think that when NIL first came out, I think a lot of people thought that players are going to earn money off their jerseys, doing advertisements, you know, in the community. I don't think people thought it was going to get to the point where they were just getting gobs of money right in front of them. So I think that what NIL was intended to be and what it's gone to is really, really changed and made college sports what it is right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And what is that right now? Think so? I agree. I totally think it is. So here's here's my big problem. I agree with both of you guys. The NIL process itself, innately, in my opinion, is not the problem. Like earning money for your name, your image, and your likeness shouldn't have been going on eons ago. It's the way this stuff is being refereed. Like the referees are getting punched out by the athletes, and the athletes are stealing money off the table. And now there's nothing regulating the system. It's not even really a system. It's just a bunch of independent entities dumping tons and tons of money into a bunch of people who don't know how to handle tons and tons of money. And then from there, you you see the trickle-down effect of the brokenness of it all. Remember when everybody used to look at college sports and so and say, yo, that's my team right there. Oh, we got that player, that player, that's what's up. And you think that player cares about your team. Those days are gone.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

So my thought is that it's always happened. We've known it's always happened. Understandable. There you go. People got money under the table. As long as they didn't get caught, they kept that money, right?

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

That's how we got all the big players and the everything like that. Do you think that because nowadays it's even just more blatant to where it's like, I d it's not about um, you know being wanting to go to a school anymore, right? Right. It's not about saying I grew up with this school in mind and I'm going there. It's like Go Knowles. Exactly. Go Knowles.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

You know, I read I was on Reddit kind of re researching this topic, and there was a guy that was ranting about like how this is affecting his team and not just his team, but it's affecting all of college sports. And then I went through the comments, and then a whole bunch of people were like, sounds like it's just affecting your team badly. You're only upset because it's affecting the team that you root for.

Big Money, Small Schools, And Competitive Balance

SPEAKER_00 4:38

But but how does that affect everybody, right? So like even Florida State, right? FSU, we're battling UF. Who's got gobs of money? It's Miami. Miami. You know, and you know, we're fighting them to try to pull players because of nil nowadays, right? But what about these smaller schools? What about the, you know, UCF is coming up, you know. We have, you know, FAU down down down farther south and stuff like that, right? What about these schools? They can't afford these players. How are they ever going to get that money?

SPEAKER_05 5:11

Aaron Powell, I think the problem with those schools, like FAU and those smaller schools, is you know, they have a guy that they recruited and they developed and and he starts to emerge, he's gone. I mean, they can't keep they cannot keep those guys that they develop. So I think that you're seeing a really tough time for those lower schools being able to build something. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Point of fact, Jared Verse, right? He went to Buffalo, right? University of Buffalo or whatever. He popped off because he ended up at Florida State.

SPEAKER_05 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

So did that paycheck. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Florida State paid him good. So I found a website, it's called um sports epreneur.com. And um so their their take on it is that NIL is bad and it's failing college sports. And in the first part of the article, it says NL NIL is bad for its current form, but isn't a bad concept. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

I agree. Yeah, we we said that at the very beginning. It's the furthest thing from bad concept.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

But there's a lot of people who are going to be like, no, like it's NIL is all bad. It's completely bad.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

I I like the concept, right? Because at some point, these kids are playing football or any kind any kind of sport, right? They're putting their bodies to the test every single weekend, game, whatever, right? And who was benefiting from it? The school. Is the school actually putting that money back into helping these students, you know, get through school, feeding them, clothing them, you know, everything that they would do for themselves, getting a job and stuff like that. Is that money coming back to them? From the looks of it, it wasn't. It was going back to the school and whatever they wanted.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

So you're saying that students weren't even getting them the money they were promised?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Before this whole nil thing, right? Students were Oh, oh, okay. Students were, here's your scholarship. Yeah. You get to play. Yep. You get to go to school for free. Yeah. But you gotta eat. Yep. You gotta sleep, you gotta get your own place. Right. You know, you gotta wake up in the morning, go to school, and still make it the practice. Better.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

But out of all those seats being filled in a stadium, all that money goes back to the school. And yeah, they'll put a little couple of dollars here and there like that. But you know, how can you say that the president of the school or the university is getting a million-dollar bonus check and these kids are still starving because they get one meal a day. A football player, 300 pounds. Football player. Aaron Ross Powell Oh, one paid for meal? That's a lot of brownies. One meal. From from what I and and that's, you know, maybe from a decent school where, you know, I'm I'm pretty sure you somebody with a bigger, you know, university or something like that, probably, you know, they have a cafeteria, again, something something good for them. But you know, regular schools to me, I would assume that they walk into the cafeteria once and that's it.

Contracts, Fine Print, And Predatory Agents

SPEAKER_01 8:11

So we're we're talking about this overexpanding power trip, right, from the NCAA in every school, every institution. But let's get back to the overall overview of the NIL, right? So once again, so everyone has a clear, crispy understanding of what we're talking about here. It allows college athletes to profit from their own name, image, and likeness through endorsements, sponsorships, and social media, right? Athletes negotiate deals independently or with the help of agents and other collectives. Now, the one point I want to dive in deep in here on is that first off, this is now an independent venture. It's the athlete acting as their own business, right? You will be held responsible for what you do. Hence, now you have agents, you have other collectives that can manipulate websites, all these things, all for the sake of getting you what they deem you deserve. Makes sense, right? Now, innately, none of that's bad. But you also got to think when's the last time you met a college football, baseball, soccer player that was a good business person?

SPEAKER_03 9:18

No. Not really.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

But in addition, you're also going to a company that doesn't want to lose money. So their contracts are gonna be like very, very, very, very fine print. By the way, if you don't do this, this, this, and this, we don't have to pay you. Right. Um or you're stuck in this contract for the rest of your life. Or we're gonna sue you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

In in um in this uh article that I was reading, um, they were there was a clothing company that was saying that was giving the athlete the NIL deal. They were taking 40% of their NIL earnings and all future NIL deals. And they were writing that into the contract. And then there were f clauses in the fine print that they weren't informed of. And then they they signed the contract thinking that they're getting this deal, but then it is on the at this point, it's on the athlete for not getting legal counsel. But then here's the thing that uh was espoused in or what they were uh saying in this article that the college was barring students or intimidating them from getting legal advice. Otherwise, they were threatening to like not not go through with the the contract. So they're threatening them from getting legal advice in the first place. This could be grounds for a you know legal termination of the contract altogether on the athlete's part and suing the school. But can they prove it?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

As the world turns true.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I mean, I I get it. And and you know, bringing it to something that I know about, which is music, all it takes is somebody to sit there and say, here's a million dollars. Chomp change for these big companies. Chomp change, right? But to somebody who hasn't seen that kind of money, a million dollars is a lot. A million dollars can do a lot at that moment, right? Right. But it's like what are you g what are you getting after that? So these ka these guys, you know, sign music deals at point of fact, TLC. Sign the more of the worst music deals ever. They were chasing waterfalls, all right. And they got pennies. I mean, literally, they were selling millions of records worldwide. And they got pennies. Yeah and now they're broke. Now they don't have anything. And that's why it's like you're giving these kids straight out of high school millions of dollars. And they don't know the first thing about getting a lawyer to help them, you know, navigate through these contracts and things like that. Somebody waves a bunch of money in front of them, of course. They're gonna be like, Yep, I'm in.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Do we all agree that these players should be able to make some sort of money in the middle of the year? Oh, yeah. Of course. We all agree on that?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

Because I mean, I just think when you think about coaches who have making making gobs of money for years for these off these kids, you know, that they recruit and they perform for them and they you know, you're winning national championships and they're paying these coaches all this money, and you know, players aren't seeing any of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

I okay. I'm gonna play a devil, I'm gonna play the flip side of this, right? Sure, sure. To me, a coach has paid his dues. A coach has been through from from what I can see, right? They've been through high school, they've been through, you know, every every rank to bust their tails to get to a head coaching position within a college, university, or even in the NFL and things like that, right? These kids come out of high school and they can throw a ball. They haven't to me, they haven't put in the work to be able to say, yes, you deserve this money, right? Or or even even with that money, you you haven't done anything, right? With the a brand new freshman straight out of uh high school going into college, you haven't proven anything to me yet. You've played the best in high school, but that doesn't mean anything, right? I mean, because we've had we have high schools that have all in 10 records, and and you have some beefed up running back that can run 6,000 yards a whole year, right? Of course he, you know, he's gonna be great. And you know, people are gonna offer him all kinds of money to be like, come over here. Sure. You know, but as soon as he steps on, does he become a starter?

unknown 13:40

No.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Does he sit the bench? Yeah, because there's probably another beefcake in front of him, right? And that doesn't even mean that we'll even get to see him on the starting field or even on the field ever.

unknown 13:54

Yeah.

Should Players Get Paid And How Much

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I mean, look at Ohio State. They're stacked upon, stacked, and even when uh Saban was coaching, right? Bama, stacked upon, stacked upon, stacked of NFL talent. You already knew they were going to the NFL. They could ride the bench for days and they were going to the NFL, period. You know. But any other school, it's like uh we don't even know you. Why are we gonna why do you deserve this much money? And it's it's it's college. I'm sending my child to go to school to learn. I if they choose to play football, if they choose to play a sport, it's it's great. But this is me personally. This is me personally. Yes. You I am sending my child to college to go to school to get an education.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

And that's what I expect. If they can make money, okay, I'm not gonna say anything about it, right? But uh but to me, it's like the investment is on their education to me. Sports is great. Will it last? No. What is the percentage of anybody actually making it to the pros and making it to millions of dollars, right? Look at that. And and tell me it's like you're you're making a gamble.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

And I I agree with you, but that's not reality. So here's the problem. To help to me. Here's the problem. I think most of these athletes understand that. They realize, wait a minute, timeout. My longevity in this is real short. Hence, that NIL deal is gonna matter to me right now. I'm gonna get all I can get. Every last bit, and I will rip anybody off as many times as possible and sign as many endorsement deals to show you this can of soda as possible. Yeah, my education's all good and like that there, but how about this? The last time I heard when I got a degree out of college, they keep telling me the moment I try to go get a job, I need experience. I got no experience. I just got out of college paying this dang school$48,000 a year. So now I feel like I'm stuck. So if I got a shot, whether you know me or not, to make$100K a year, oh, I'm gonna take it. Plus, how about this? You go into some of these pro level teams, right? I go into baseball, I ain't making nothing outside of my signing bonus for the first two, three years. You know what I mean? I could play four or five years in college baseball and make just as much as I would in my first three years in pro. If I do it in college football, I can make a million plus dollars, never go to the league and still be a millionaire. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I can get mine ASAP, like ASAP Rocky, get it done. And I don't listen to that guy. He's a weirdo. But definitely get you. I I get your point on the education piece because essentially that's what the institution should be built around.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

And I hear what you're saying. Yes. I hear you 100%. Yes. But when I look at that sideline and I see a million dollar piece, a diamond piece on a young kid sitting on the sideline with 10 chains hanging around their neck, blinging. Yes. That just goes to show me you took your whole check that you just got and put it around your neck. Sure did.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

And then they got a McLaren in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

And that's it. Yes, that's it. Because you could blow out your knee the next game. Yes. All that goes away, and now you're left with nothing.

unknown 17:19

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

That's true, but they would have never had even that. They wouldn't even have never had that if they didn't get the ideal NIO. But what's it worth? It's worth that chain they they they got. Now, no, I'm not saying that in any way, shape, or form, any of that is bright because it's not. And that's the big problem we have with these young kids getting all this money. Most of them are blowing tons of cash that they could be investing or setting their future up with, but they think the faucet's on.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But that's that's where I'm getting at. The educational portion of it doesn't just mean that you get your degree, you get your whatever, right? You're learning about life, you're learning about how to manage money, you're learning about everything within this portion of it. Giving especially from somebody that has nothing, right? Yeah. You know, some of these kids grew up with absolutely nothing. So as soon as somebody flashes big money, of course they're gonna take it. Who wouldn't? I mean, you're you're you're able to get your family out of the gutter. I mean, come on. You know, everybody's looking at you, and and uh 100%, I know I can guarantee you a majority of these families are looking at their kids to be like, get me out of here. And there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, come on. I mean, they're they're they're busting their tails to get their kids out of this stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

So um I wanted this is uh relevant to what uh this is relevant to what I was just saying uh a little bit earlier, but uh a professional sports uh agent attorney, uh they criticize the lack of oversight in uh specifically football. And agents must register with players association, um, pass a legal examination with a cap on commission at 3 percent. By contrast, most NIL agents has has to pay um has to pay a um application fee uh with the state with no limit on their commission rate. So like they can make as much commission off of player uh as as much as they want. What's the problem with that? But then like so that they're able to make a ton of money. Yeah, there's not a problem with it. But then the the player uh oftentimes is is being like oh over left out of the loop. Because colleges, uh in the next paragraph, the colleges are being barred from offering legal advice to the players.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, uh I'm sorry, you're you're Ain't it fun living in the real world.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

That's what we're doing right now. But that's the other thing. Why would but why would the school offer legal advice? They should be the child and the family should be going out to a lawyer to get their legal advice, period, right? I can I can see why they would say, okay, the university can't have a say in it. Because to me, the university would or the school, whatever, is in it for themselves. At least when you hire your own lawyer, they're looking out for your best.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

Can I swing it? Can I swing it to a different perspective? To a different to a different uh department. I wanna all right, so I kind of want to talk about the NIO and and amongst like a school's athletic department. So we can use Florida State. We all know what's going on at Fort State right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Hold out of nothing.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

A lot of money going into that football program. A lot of money going into that football program. I want to pose the question, how do other universities or sorry, sports within the university, football, basketball, baseball, how do they balance that? You know, say baseball. Ford State's got a successful baseball program. They do. And, you know, they're probably not getting near anywhere near the NIL that football is getting, and you see what football is putting out on the field. How does that I guess how do these how do these coaches handle it within a university? How do you guys how do you guys see that?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

I if I go first, um I'm saying if you look at anything, right? If you look at any school, their success really is based off of football. That's true. I mean UAB lost their football program and they went in the tank. Sure. SMU, when they were when they went through their their whole mess with football, they went into the tank. I mean, football brings in a ton of money to these schools. And for any any place that doesn't have football, I think they do struggle a lot as far as trying to bring money into the school and things like that. So to me, I honestly think you know, football probably brings in a mass majority of of the funds to a school. So I think they kind of gear everything towards That, right? Even though, like with FSU, hey, our our ladies' softball team is the bunk. And the ladies' soccer team? What? I mean, come on. We're always yeah, we're always in the finals almost every year. And you know, I I'd I I hate saying it, but they probably don't get nowhere near what the men's sports are. But that's not the way the NIL works.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 22:25

No, I think football is the driving force, 100%. I just feel like it has to be frustrating knowing that you may not be getting as much help from your higher ups in terms of investment, you know, into your players into your facilities, knowing that you're running an extremely successful program and you might not be able to compete with teams in, say, the SEC, like the LSUs, who will put a ton of money into baseball or other smaller sports.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

I've got one name that trumps that argument. Libby Dunn. Libby Dunn. Yeah. Libby Dunn is gymnastics. Libby Dunn is gymnastics. LSU football. LSU gymnastics. Who's getting more popular? LSU football. Libby Dunn makes over a million. That's pretty small, isn't it? Well, well, well, honestly, no. Think about it. The average NIL deals probably ranges between 20,000. Oh, we're just saying. No, no, what? No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I think she she has to be getting more than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

She is, yeah. What I'm saying is the average NIL deal. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, gotcha. Sorry, Mother. We were doing a comparison. So think about it. We talked about football trumps all. That's absolutely right. The one thing that we can all learn from Livy Dunn being a gymnast, making over a million in her NILs while she was in college, was she was incredibly smart and did really well with marketing. She marketed herself extremely well. So what we're really talking about here is if you have somebody that has the ability to market themselves to the point to where a brand will say, we like you and you're worth it. She wasn't the best gymnast on her team. She was, I'm not, I'm not knocking her beauty, but she's she's an attractive young lady, but there's nothing like, oh my goodness gracious, oh I've the whole world's trying to No, she was insanely good at marketing.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah. But I think she blew herself up that way. I think she even said that in one of her uh interviews and things like that, that she posted or something, that she's basically said all these people just she used other words, but basically like me, right? They like me, basically. Yes. Yeah. So I mean she basically used her looks to get where she was. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah. So so that's the big difference in contribution when it comes to what we're noticing with the disparaging difference with monies with men and women. But how about this? Let's go back into naming some of the biggest NIL earners on the men's side in college sports between 2025 and 2026. I'll just go down a couple names. You got Arch Manning, right? Out of Texas, 3.5 million, right? Just because of his dad's name.

unknown 25:10

Yeah.

Funding Football First And Program Tensions

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Bronny James. Oh, yeah. Before he left, right? Before he's playing in the NBA, six million, right? And baseball, Dylan Cruz, LSU. He was making$150,000. Volleyball, Will Rotman out of Stanford was making$40,000 a season. Now, again, we're trickling down to sports, right? So we have um gymnastics, a male, Brody Malone, Stanford, he was making between$100,000 and$140,000, right? On just strict NIL. So, yes, by comparisons to football, it's disparaging. There's no getting around it. But these are all male athletes from different sports that have all found a way. Because I don't remember the last time we any of us signed a deal for$140,000. I did that yesterday. How do you made it your money? You did it for your job is what you did. That's not going in your pocket. So, with that in mind, we can see how marketing and demonstrating value is the overall trump card in the NIL space. Now, going back to what Santa said just a bit ago, why in God's green earth would you ever trust an agent? You won't.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

No.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Do you do you need one?

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Yep. Yeah, but the agent is going to make it seem like, oh, you can trust me. Oh, yeah, I'll I'll handle everything for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

And why would they make you feel that way?

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Because they can make more money off of you. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Because they want your money. They want all your money. If you're unaware and you're oblivious, they're going to be like, all right, this is I'm going to make so much money off of them and they don't even know it.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Aaron Powell So should we feel bad? Like, D-Ro answer this question for me, dude. Should we feel bad for athletes that get duped on NIL deals?

SPEAKER_05 26:53

I mean, there's I think every circumstance is different. I think I think you're seeing a lot of that with the transfer portal now. And a lot of guys, you know, and their agents transferring and testing the waters and then realizing, oh shoot, there's not something better out there. I need to go back to my other school. And you're seeing a lot of kids get screwed over that way. So I think every situation's different, but I'm sure some ways kids can get screwed over like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Aaron Powell So since you bring up the transfer portal and stuff like that, why aren't these contracts set up to be where you're not if you're under contract, you're not able to transfer out.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

There's no oversight.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

But the contract is is different, though. Contract is basically saying I'm giving you money. The contract itself can state anything it needs to as long as you sign it, right? So to me it's like what's stopping a school from saying if I'm paying you this nil deal, you owe me four years or you owe me two years if I pay you this.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Aaron Powell I I I get what you're saying there. I think the major difference is that they're not establishing these deals with the school. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

But then again, but then why isn't the school being able to say, okay, if you I guess it wouldn't really work. That would be kind of illegal, right? To be able to say, you know, if you sign if you if we pay for if we give you a scholarship to come to the school, you owe us two years or four years or whatever, right?

Livvy Dunn, Self-Marketing, And Averages

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Trevor Burrus, Jr. I don't think that's illegal. I think they can write that in a stipulation. Without a doubt. They can I've seen schools writing stipulations saying you can't accept a certain amount of money on an NIL and us give you money. So if the school says, hey, we're giving you this on scholarship, if you sign an NIL for this, we cap scholarship. Scholarship's gone. School has the right to do that. Now, here's the other big piece. This is where you see a lot of disparaging remarks coming from athletes on Twitter and X and on IG and et cetera. So, okay, you just landed this massive NIL deal, my boy. Congratulations. You you're a multimillionaire. Oh, your coach benched you. Oh Schnapp. Guess what? You ain't getting that screen time the way you want it. It's starting to look real ugly. Now that brand's not very happy, right? Oh, the brand pulls your deal. It's happened multiple times. Then the player sues the school or tries to attack the coach. How dare you? I got this NIL dude. You're messing with my money. The coach goes, You're messing with my job. You're messing with my team. Get off my team, my boy. You can't do that to me. Now there's a lawsuit. Then the college itself has to go through a process of saying, Time out. How do we go about this? This kid's mad popular. This coach is right. Who do we need to get rid of? It's turning into a firestorm.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

And then And what worries me is these kids that are making millions of dollars, you know, they can go to their coach and be like, who are you? Bingo. Who are you? I mean, I I got way more money than you. I can go anywhere I want. I don't need to be here. You know, and that's what worries me because now it's like the coach has no authority. None at all. At a college level. NFL is a different story, right? You got you got pros making millions and millions of dollars, plus coaches making millions of dollars. They have their own system set up, they have their own way of doing things, right? Uh you you you bench their superstar, you you're gonna hear from the management office be like, well, why is this guy sitting on his bench? College is different. If he doesn't step up, there's somebody else behind him that needs to step up and get on that field, right? But if he's making millions of dollars, somebody's gonna be like, yo, you you you you're you're making a multimillionaire sit on the bench. What's your problem? I don't care if he sucks. I don't care if he's got a broken toe. I don't know if I don't care if he can't read. Get him on that field.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

He can catch a ball, he could throw a ball, he could run faster than anybody. He needs to be out on that field, period.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Um I I I I don't know if this is a little bit off topic or not, but there's an aspect of the thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Oh, don't throw us all topics, Sal. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

It has to do with with at with the athletes and the NIL uh process. But uh I didn't realize that international students are being overlooked altogether.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Okay, expound.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

So um there's like a hierarchy within the portal and within NIL deals and everything. So you have your top-tier NIL athletes and everything, then you have the people that are below them and it keeps going down, and then you have the people that are just trying to get whatever they can, that are, you know, maybe they're getting out of high school and stuff like that. And then you have international students that are being overlooked because of like visa restrictions and uh other like international laws, and uh. Some of the NIL companies don't really want to work with international students.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Aaron Ross Powell When you say international, do you mean international athletes or international students coming in to learn? Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, coming in to learn. Aaron Ross Powell Because the name and likeness, doesn't that only apply to athletes? Technically, no. It can apply to anyone. It can apply to anyone. I just thought it was only for athletes. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

Just so normalized to when you think of that, you think of athletes.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Aaron Ross Powell Right. They've put that out there in space. I mean, I guess if you're the top spelling bee person in your country, I guess, yeah. Well we'll deal you.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

But jokingly, you're right though. I would give them an NIL. Well, think about it. Like the National Spelling Bee is one of the biggest events that happens in the world. They're the smartest kids you ever seen. This kid represents my company and he won the national spelling bee. People make money off that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Or like even chess. Like there's some guys that are balling out in chess. Don't use the word balling out. Especially with chess.

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Well, these athletes are getting all this money because they're really exceptional at what they do. So what's the difference with someone else, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, yeah. You're absolutely right. That's mind-blown right there. I guess so. I mean, yeah. Oh, I built this fusion particle, whatever, something or another. Hey, here's a new. Come over.

Benchings, Brand Pressure, And Lawsuits

SPEAKER_01 33:15

So I'm gonna list a couple more female athletes with major NILs. Once again, we already mentioned Livy Dunn. She was making$2 million in 25-26, right? You got Caitlin Clark, we already knew about that, over 800,000 while she was in college in 25, right? So Flo J Johnson, she was making major jumps when it came to LSU basketball and getting brand deals to just link up and link up and link up. You have the the Cavender twins down in Miami, almost a million at 900,000. You have so many different people: volleyball, Lexi Sun, you have softball, Montana Fouts, you got soccer. You have so many people that were just rolling up the dough on the female side. But once again, by comparison, they're making nothing by comparison to the men. Now, we we talk about Livy, we talk about Caitlin and Clayton, Caitlin's NBA career, or excuse me, WNBA career has inflated her value up dramatically because they made her the face of an entire league. And you still have to admit the WNBA is difficult to watch. But I'll bring up a statement here. If we are paying attention to college baseball and softball, the disparaging difference in regards to ratings and monies being generated in the World Series on both sides is remarkable. The men are being trumped dramatically by the women.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Well, is that because more people are going to watch women's softball over baseball? Yes. So the NILs aren't matching it.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Oh, oh.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

That's what I'm saying. That is crazy. Because if we look at FSU football, it's like we haven't won for the last couple of years, but the ladies' soccer's winning national championships every year. Softball is always in the World Series.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I'm like, why is it is it just because of marketing? Like, what's the reason that they aren't getting the recognition they deserve?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

That's the question.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

I think it just goes back to talking about how football drives everything. I mean, it makes the most money. So I think some schools don't necessarily see the, I guess I don't want to say importance, but maybe they don't feel like they're gonna get the return on investment that they want if they put all their money into, say, a softball player. I know Texas Tech, I don't know what the number is, you guys might know, with the softball pitcher.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Nija, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

Do you know how much money?

SPEAKER_01 35:34

She made two million. And did they win the World Series? They went. She took him there by herself and lost because they burnt her out. No, but but she's an unreal story. Absolutely. Like when people think of Texas Tech, her face is on the front door. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

But uh go going outside of the university, I mean, it's like uh the USA uh women's soccer team, right? Mm-hmm. World Cup every single year. Way more entertaining to watch than the men. Men couldn't even make it to the World Cup tournament a couple of those years. Oh yeah. How are they getting more money than the women who can win a World Cup? Gentlemen, I believe I have an answer.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

All right, I want to hear it. So we're looking at overall marketability, we're looking at sustainability on marketability, and then we're looking at isolated marketability. Isolated marketability. Message. What is the primary way women are marketed to sports?

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Their attractiveness.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yep. It's visual appeal. Make sense? Visual appeal first, talent second. What is the primary way men are marketed in sports?

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Athletic ability. Actual ability.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

The exact opposite. That is where the failure comes with marketing. Women have been typecasted to the point of if we cannot overtly, like you talked about with Livy, do this type of marketing, no one really cares that you're that good yet. We'll give you some money, yeah. But men, on the other hand, you can be dog faced. I mean, just just just wow, what happened to you when you came out of the womb? If you're that insanely talented, we will how many times did you run your face into that wall, bro? And I would still follow you down that dirt road because my boy, you have a 40-inch vert, you get 360 dunk, and you hit threes from the free throw line. Threes from the free throw line. You hit threes from half court. You hit threes from half court with your eyes closed. It's it's it's a mind-boggling experience when you see men's ability being used versus the trumping of women's sexuality being used.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

But then like there might be a woman that's like an insanely good athlete, but then you know, she's not like eh, not the most attractive, you know, and then people aren't going to want to watch her as much.

International Students And NIL Barriers

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Right. We're assessing value to that extent, right? So we over we over-sensualize, and then from there we respect the athleticism. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So who's created that environment?

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Men? Come on. Come on. Let's call it the way it is. Okay. Us as men have created that environment for these ladies. I think it's both. I know this might be hard to say. But you this is Mike. Mike is saying this. It does not condone to all of us. So he's falling on his own knife right now.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Okay. This is this is why I say it's both. This is why. Because there's been a massive uprising of women in sports as of the last couple of years screaming about values that are not sexual. And it's been really, really awesome to watch. And the more men have been paying attention to the overall scape of value in women's sports, the more you're seeing men go out and spend money on women's sports. That's the other thing that we have to pay attention to. The vast majority of the NIL deals that we're noticing in women's sports are coming from things that are owned by men. And companies, brands, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Like the WNBA, right? It moved a little slow for me at the beginning. Sure. It seems like it's picking up speed. And I mean just fast-paced balling. You know, these women are skilled. Yes. And and they'd run circles around me, no problem. Uh 100%. They're elite athletes. I have you know, I I wouldn't be able to stand neck and neck with these people, these ladies. And even softball, it seems to be moving faster. The game seems to be moving faster with the ladies that are coming up nowadays. They just seem like they're just putting everything into it and making this game fun to watch. That's why I watch the softball thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

It's like it's incredibly exciting. It is. You can't get over it. Baseball's boring, it's not can't get over it. You gotta be in the game at to watch baseball and be a fan of baseball. And softball, I can sit down on TV and watch it.

SPEAKER_05 40:18

I think that is the difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

100%. And but even like ladies soccer, it moves fast. They're they're playing. They're I mean, I'm I'm like fully invested right now. I can watch a ladies' game and be in the game. Have you ever watched men's volleyball?

unknown 40:33

No.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

It's terrible. I'm I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude. I dropped that line. This is why it's terrible. They're also absurdly tall, they're also absurdly strong that the game has no flow. All it does is bump, up, hit, point. There's no volley. There's no such thing as volley. So it's just point, point, point until you get the points done. In the women's game, there's a set, there's a volley, there's a dig, there's another dig, there's another jump, there's the crowd, there's energy. After they score, ha, hoah. You know what I mean? It's it's ridiculous. It gets you fired up. And then you see that one girl that comes from the back row can hit a ball 70 miles an hour and just smoke a chick in the face. It's bad entertaining. Now, once again, you you you connect skill athleticism with the visual attraction, right? Now you have what the market pushes.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Well, so here's something else I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Why do you come in so calmly and just the way he does it? So, this is something I was saying to the same thing.

Women’s Sports Value Versus Media Reality

SPEAKER_03 41:35

And this is something else I was thinking about. All right. So I like I build it up. I don't know. All right. So anyway, uh, so I was thinking, how many female athletes, because they're not getting the this recognition, how many of them, and this is creating the more like sexualized culture, how many of them are going on not safe for work sites to kind of market themselves because culture is telling them that's what they need to do? What do you mean? So like um how how many how many female athletes are putting themselves on social media in over sexualized ways in on you know sites that aren't easily accessed? They're on OnlyFans and they're pushing themselves out that way.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:35

I mean, do you think that they feel that that's the only way that they can get cult culture is telling them like you need to do this?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

And I I guess so. And so in some instances I I do I it could be that that point of fact where it's like, you know what, whatever. I'll just do it this way and go for it, right? And what's the norm? I don't think that's the norm though. I think the norm is, you know, the normal pictures insta, you know, looking sexy, looking cute, you know, this outfit, that outfit type thing, you know. And I think that's what they kind of push now to the extreme. Yeah, maybe some of them go to the OF and you know, pursue that avenue and stuff like that. But I don't think it's really at least personally, I don't think it's really gotten that crazy. I'm pretty sure it's just more of over sexualized images on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Yeah, I guess social media is part of that too. Definitely. Well, I mean that gets clicks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And and that's the crazy part about it, right? You know, when we were going to the club when we were young, you know, ladies wore, you know, nice dresses and things like that. Now they basically wear nothing. I mean, honestly, they it's a spaghetti strap covering, you know, the essential portions of it. Of it just so they don't get in trouble, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

And once again, it's because of us, the men, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:12

So again, going going. We keep coming back to that point. The only reason I always completely disagree with just saying just men is because the lady has to hold themselves responsible just as much. In the end, if you can form, then ultimately you have to be held responsible for your actions. Either you're stating for the dollar, I'm willing to do, or I won't do because I can hold up a merit and still do well. And and then like think about it this way: there's there's a lot of softball players out right now that are making a lot more money on NIL deals. There's a few of them that are actually making that point very much much well known. I won't do this. I won't do this. You'll like me. Yeah, I might be visually really appealing, but I'm not gonna do that for the sake of a dollar. And actually, you know what ended up happening with one of these players, she ended up getting a little under a million because of her respect. If you if you look at what women can do in regards to overall ability and the way they can control the narrative on their own, if they continue to use that as a vice, nothing will ever change. You're right. Men are the marquee reasons for that. You don't have to conform to it. Now, for the sake of making the dollar, I get it. Good example. I am now the head strength conditioning coach for the Florida vibe. I mean, round of applause for me. Thank you, gentlemen. The least you can do. So, thanks, Aaron. So, with that in mind, the one thing that I really appreciate about them, which is what I've been learning, at the pro level, you can imagine softball has never had any attention at all. No one cared. Now they do because of the collegiate level. When they got in contact with me, the first thing they stated was, T Mike, yo, we're super excited. This is going to be very reminiscent of what we already expected in college. It's nice to finally see it at this level. Did they conform and get sloppy and not work out anymore? No. They found other routes to maintain their abilities, right? They got stronger, they went to gyms, they kept their strength coaches from college. So they didn't conform, right? Or try to overtly over-sexualize sport. They maintained. And if they keep taking that route, saying, no, these are expectations, this is our push, this is who we are, you will respect it as a brand, and you will find ways to make money off of us because we are marketable. It's gonna work.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

I think people cling to that too. Yeah. Like people see that, you know, when people are true to their values and and stick to a plan and stay consistent, people cling to that in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah, but there's always a but. Let's get back to where we are now, right? Because given that we have phones, given that we have computers, internet, everything like that, we want it now. So, how long will it take for somebody to conform to what we're doing now versus somebody who can get what they want now and change the game later?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Well, that that depends on how much you want it. Like in the end, you saw what women's soccer did. What did women's soccer do? What did the pros do? They went out and said, We're no longer gonna keep playing for these terrible wages. We're not gonna do this anymore. We're the best in the in the world, and we're gonna battle. We're not going out on that field anymore, doing what you tell us to do, paying us nothing while you pay these dudes flat out 60% more than us. And they don't make it as far. And they don't even make it as far. It took a bunch of women to stand up on their two feet to make a change, and they've made changes.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yes, 100% you're right. But they had the platform. We're talking about somebody that doesn't have the platform that's trying to get there, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Right. But that's that's what we're that's what we need. We need the women that have the arena right now, these NILs that are making some solid money to go out and continue to speak up for those that are gonna do it in the future. For real.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

But we're saying that, you know, somebody like Libby Dunn flaunted her looks, and we're saying, you know, basically, probably could have did it a different way, but she got what she wanted, and now she has her platform, right? And we're saying that women shouldn't do that. Women shouldn't do what? Over sexualize themselves, you know, to to be able to get to the platform that they want. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

That's ultimately not a a good way to procure the sport for longevity. Because then it's it the people are who are potential fans are only interested in the sexualized aspect of those athletes. They're not really interested in in the sport itself. Which is the goal.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Period. So if you want to make a change, you have to become it. In other words, if you choose not to for the dollar, then don't complain. Keep your mouth shut. No one cares about you whining.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

If somebody gets to the platform that they want and then speaks and changes it, that's okay. But they got there by doing what everybody else did. They just got noticed first, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Now, once again, I I get that argument. That's that's uh that's ultimately what a lot of these people have already done. They've they've been sexualized in some way, shape, or form, and they're they're out there chasing the dollar, then they make a decision to say, time out, this needs to change. Because they did it to get to that particular place. And I totally get it. It's gonna take somebody at some point in time to stop it. Someone's gotta do it. I think they've already started that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:52

I mean, look at Caitlin Clark, right? She doesn't come out in a bathing suit, she doesn't come out in anything, she's straight up with her sport, yeah. And they're paying her poo-koo amounts of money to be that sport, right? And then, you know, we have somebody like um, you know, Libby Dunn, right? Yep. She did it the opposite way. But she doesn't she doesn't go out and overflaunt her in skimpy dresses or whatever. Yeah, she did a swimsuit shoot and stuff like that, but she's still pretty much, I guess you would say, kind of conservative in her own right, I guess you would say. I don't know. I I don't see her.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Let's just let's just say I I really get where you're going there too. Now, how about this? No one's out here telling young ladies that they can't express themselves, right? What I'm really trying to express, and this isn't a knock on anyone, is that you can't go out, present yourself one way, then expect respect another way. And if you did it for the sake of chasing a dollar, you should expect the results from what you did. So ultimately, you can't go around telling people one thing and then reflect another. That's like me saying, hey, Trainer Mike's a really nice person. I'm a really nice guy. And on the everyone knows when they meet me, I'm a total jerk, right? That that would just be contradictory all the time. And I'm going around telling people I'm a nice guy, and and I'm I'm not. I I just gotta get to a point where I'm actually a nice guy and then go out there and prove it.

SPEAKER_03 51:26

I mean, yeah. So, but um, so that was so self-deprecating.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

I was gonna say, I'm like, I'm I'm just sitting here thinking, like on the flip side, just because a woman posts herself in a nice little skimpy bathing suit doesn't mean that she's easy either.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

It just means she likes the bathing suit and she liked the way that it depends on how often people see it. If people see it all the time, and that's the narrative you've presented of yourself, assumptions are made. That's just all there is true.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Okay, so let's get it this way. What happens if you're Mike, right? The guy that's just here, right? Nobody knows him, nobody knows, but he posts pictures. Why don't we say he's oversexualizing himself? He is. And if a female does that. She is. But he's doing it for a job.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Well, I mean, so are they so are they.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Right. So uh why is he better not complaining a lick about being oversexualized.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

So I I mean I I think that's You better not say one word. No, but I I think that there's you can do I guess you can do that to market yourself to an extent, but then where's the cutoff point for that? At what point are you saying, all right, I'm doing this for recognition, and then oh, I'm doing this because I like the attention, so I'm gonna overindulge. So I don't think there's any wrong anything wrong with like I guess like for instance, wearing women wearing makeup to make themselves more appealing, to get a job or something like that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But when the mindset shifts to, oh, I I really enjoy all this attention. Now that's the main motivation for why I'm doing all this and not originally marketing myself in this sport.

SPEAKER_05 53:17

And then you realize the attention keeps coming and you almost now you're now you're stuck because now you have to keep doing what you're doing. There's no way out. Pigeonhold yourself.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Now imagine the NIL process has done that to women. And unfortunately, it kind of low-key has. It's helped the process, it's helped that narrative continue to grow. And they're almost, they almost feel like they're they're stuck in that world. Almost like a girl doesn't want to be that way. I don't want to wear that dress, but if I don't, this might happen because the brand told me, well, we really prefer you to wear this, right? And believe you me, those circumstances are occurring, right? Pay attention to Nike and volleyball. Have you been noticing the way Nike's been dressing women? Have you noticing how much shorter the volleyball shorts are getting every single year? Right. And then I sat back and went, wait a minute, time out. Maybe, maybe they make them that way so the girls can move more freely. But then I talk to other ladies and they're like, no, it doesn't help in any way. You know what I mean? But then you see, I've seen girls in volleyball especially purposely hike up their shorts higher. Know why? Because they know they'll get more clicks, they'll get more opportunity. The brand might come out and say, wait a minute, time out. Look at her. We can make money off of that look, right? And once again, from that point on, your talent doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. No one cares about your talent. That's that's that's a really difficult aspect of the NIO world for women. And it's just the truth.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

So I've I've heard this statement being used before in this conversation. Like women aren't given as much credit for their sport because they're not respected. So what do you think about that statement? I don't like it. I don't agree with the statement. So which which side are you on? Oh of the statement. Do you think that women aren't respected enough or they are getting a reasonable amount of respect and they're just working harder than they're not respected enough.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

I mean, let's face it, the ladies have been working harder than men to get the recognition and things like that. Oh yeah. That that they need to, right? They gotta face first off men, right? Because we're jerks anyway. Oh, yeah, you can't play, we we we'll beat a woman anytime. No. And they just completely don't get the respect that they they require. They need.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

So what's your opinion on this?

SPEAKER_05 55:41

I mean, yeah, he's right. I can watch I can watch softball, I can watch women's soccer, and acknowledge that I probably can't do any of that. Like I d I don't understand where it comes from necessarily, maybe why they don't get the respect they deserve, but in some cases they definitely don't.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Well remember when um the uh female uh soccer team, the pro-female soccer team, played the boys' high school team and I guess lost. And then a bunch of people were like, man, our U.S. team is trash. And it like it was like, all right, well, we could most of us would be bested by every single one of those women. Exactly. There's no chance that we would beat them one-on-one. So why are we looking at them and being like, ah, well, they don't deserve they don't deserve respect because they lost against a high school team.

Respect, Merit, And Social Media Noise

SPEAKER_05 56:29

I think this goes back to social media. I mean, it's easy for people to just say whatever they want all the time without having to back anything up or have to do anything, you know, in person. Like there's no way to be challenged. So I think it I think it stems back to social media and people just having the free free will to say whatever they want with no with no penalty. I think that's I think that's part of it.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

I think it also comes back to the way we were taught and grown up, right? Playing basketball, playing anything, playing any kind of sport. You don't lose to a girl. If you lose to a girl, you're getting ragged on, right? And that's by your family, by your friends, everybody's gonna get you. Right? But in all reality, why is that so hard to believe that a a girl could beat a dude? I mean, it's 100%.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

But like this environment isn't always the same because we talked to Christina Whitlock. She didn't have that experience. That competitiveness pushed her to work harder.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Okay. I love the way this conversation's rolling. How about this? And I'm a grand example of that, of the point that I'm about to make. If a guy sees a girl that's legit, a guy's gonna show respect to a girl that's legit, period. I don't care about any of the other narratives that were just pressed here. If a guy meets a girl that's legit, he will respect it. In fact, he'll call it out and he'll say, yo, she's dope. Y'all need to holla. That chick can go. And that's how it works with all the athletes I'm ever around. Now, will I agree at the very beginning there's lots of disrespect? Absolutely. Because guys naturally disrespect guys. You better prove it until you can prove it. Now, again, there's other dudes that will let their ego stay in the way and never admit it. But most great dudes, great athletes, respond and respect great athletes. That's all there is to it. I've watched Fred McGriff look at a professional softball player and said if she was a dude, she was a first rounder. That's Fred McGriff. That's a Hall of Fame baseball player. I've done it millions of times going, that girl can absolutely hoop. No matter what, she can just flat out hoop, right? This girl hits bombs. There's nothing to it. She's dirty, she's filthy in the field. There's no getting around it. We just talked about some of the best softball players in the country, some of the best. Look at the women's hockey team this year in the Olympics. Absolutely disturbing talent. You can't get around it. And if you are getting around that, that just means you're a hater. You're just phony. That means they're exposing things in you that that make you upset. But real athletes don't act that way.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

But that's you. That's you talking right now.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

No, but that's you talking right now at 40 years old.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

You see the world. Ah, come on, man.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

I'm dead serious. Like I'm around athletes all the time. And they say it right then and there. D-Rock can attest to that all the time. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

You're gonna tell me that we we can sit on the court, on a basketball court right now, and see some uh a female balling out and some dude not saying, Oh, I can take it any day. Oh no, no, no, I didn't say that. No, no, I didn't say that. She ain't she she ain't and then he say, All right, I'll take her on one-on-one and show her how good she is. She hoops on him. Yeah, right? Straight up. Yeah. Hoops on him. Yeah. Makes him look embarrassed. Yeah. He comes back, I ain't even try.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Right, but I just told you that's that's the ego inflate. But most athletes don't do that. They'll flat out say, yo, she's nice. And everyone's gonna look at her and go, she's nice. That's what happens with real athletes. You'll run into an ego guy. Yeah, that's gonna happen. But that is not the norm. That's all the other dudes are gonna clown him. Okay. Because he's soft. Athletes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

That's the world of athletes. Yeah, but that's what we're talking about. Everybody else outside. No, we're talking about influence and and and getting, you know, basically the women's nil deal a little bit more, right? Sure. That's what the whole uh as far as I understand, that's what the whole focus is on why, you know, there's a difference, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

I I don't think that all dudes look at women and just say you're all trash no matter what. Oh, you're really good, but you're all trash.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

That's not true. I don't think that all men say that women are trash.

unknown 1:00:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

I'm just saying that. I just think they've got to show them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

I just gotta show them. That's how men work. Prove it. We're always about proving. But they've proven it. That's where the disparaging issue is with the NIL. Because right now you got women that are proving it, but guys are sitting back saying, or at least the business owners are saying, it's still not marketable enough. We still make more money off of these men. So you've got to do something else that's gonna convince these men to spend more money on you. Like we talked about in one episode um a little while ago, the women's volleyball game that was in a stadium.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

The Nebraska versus I forget another school. And it was the biggest attended volleyball game in the history of the NCAA. They gave them all the metrics, all the fanfare. They spent all the money, they did everything they could do to blow that game up. And it was an epic game. You heard nothing but remarks, boom, boom, boom, boom. The vast majority of the people that were there, for the first time that they've marqueed it were women. But then right after that, they went back to normal sports, men trump them again. Men go and spend more money on them than women do. You know what I mean? Women scream, give her her flowers. Well, why don't you go pay for them? Aren't you support your women?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

So then that's the other thing. Why are if it's if if it is such an issue with with female sports, why aren't the females flocking towards these games, towards these things, causing more of an uprise and saying the majority of women don't really care about sports as much as men do.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:34

That it comes down to that.

Who Shows Up And Who Pays

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

That's ATAL, like literally, that's the question. That's what kills me all the time. Like this is trainer Mike talking. I vouch for my female athletes a ton. I train a lot of elite female athletes. And know what I do most of the time when I go see them play, I see their dads more. I do. Like I'm there. I'm not just making it up, I'm right there watching them. The vast majority of these people are supported by their fathers and their brothers because a lot of their moms just like pretty colors. But then I do run into moms that are all in. And I love those women, and I love the little sister that wants to play the same sport because she's watching her big sister do it. We just don't have enough support on the back end. Like I said, when it came to NILs, the vast majority of the big NIL deals are coming from big male-run companies. There are tons of massive female-run companies that were all solicited and they all backed off. They chose the men over the women. Because they're like, we think we'll get a greater ROI. We're like, time out. She's filthy. She's Angel Reese. She's Caitlin Clark. What you mean? She's Montana Fouts. What you mean? You got that the chick from Tennessee. She throws like 80 miles an hour, dude. It's like the equivalent of 107-mile fastball from a dude in baseball. And she's getting bigger endorsement deals from Nike than she is from female-owned brands. She she's she's she's incredible. But I do agree with you on this, Menace. Right now, I think the biggest issue that I'm having with the ego of men is that they're still not recognizing the eliteness of the lady. Even though she's given it all she's got, they're slow trickling the faucet open when they could easily bust it wide open. And these ladies have proven time and time again that they're more than capable of earning every single dollar that they get. And that brings us to our sponsor.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Who's that?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

True Victory Apparel.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

What?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

If you're not perfect, this is the perfect brand for you. If you've ever struggled, if you've ever failed, if you've ever been the underdog, if you've ever doubted yourself or been doubted by others, this is the perfect brand for you. If you want to get better, be better, and make our world better, this is the perfect brand for you. Founded by U.S. military veterans and first responders, True Victory is a sportswear and street wear brand dedicated to building everyday champions on and off the field. We're not simply a company, we're a cause. Our purpose is to transform lives and elevate humanity through the power and unity of sports, positive stories, and serving others. Our hope is to one day be the world's most trusted, inspirational, and generous brand. We're dedicated to the game, the grind, and the globe. But most importantly, we're dedicated to you. That's what it means to be always true. Go to www.truevictory.com, that is www.truevictory.com to cop the most inspirational, dopest brand on the face of the earth. And when you get there, You will use discount code Aaron Solano at checkout. That is A-R-R-O-N-S-O-L-A-N-O at checkout. Thank you to the brand. True Victory Apparel for being the sponsor of the No Shop podcast. Send us back, Santa.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

So I was looking up some stats. Let's go. Numbers. Numbers. What? All right. Numbers. Alright, so uh what content do most women consume? All right, so social media is 56% for entertainment connected to DIY and hobby inspiration. Alright. I knew you would laugh at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

Do it yourself. I love the color pink.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:42

With a strong preference related to food and news and the health network. Those things matter. So be beauty and fashion is 69.6%. Uh family imparenting is 62.5%. Uh top categories are women consume high volumes of content regarding cooking, uh pop culture, beauty, health. So women are consuming content, but it's things that are outside of sports predominantly. So like that that's why they're not w paying attention to sports, because they're consuming all of this other content.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:21

And that's why these female athletes feel like they have to market themselves that route. And it's almost like they're now playing sports on the side because it feels like they're not paying attention to them for say Livy Dunn for gymnastics. They're looking at all the sports illustrated photos, the swimsuit model photos, all those other things is that she's doing. They're almost losing sight that hey, she's a gymnast at LSU. How many people watch her do that? You know?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Craziness. I g I get it, but to me it's social media, and that's a way for me to decompress and get away from sports. Whatever. I don't I don't think it's like someone in your position betraying a mic. You have to look at sports. You have to look at anything deal dealing with athletics, right? Because that's your job. That's what you do. And I wouldn't be surprised if your social media is filled with nothing but sports, techniques, you know, exercises, things like that. All facets of sports. I mean, from curling to curling.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

I will watch it. They revise nicely, right? Isn't it? They go at each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

Have you seen the curling controversy with Canada? Yes. I don't see that all I saw that video.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

And you just sit there and look and you're like, dang, their floors must be really clean. So clean.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

I mean, but but you see the the the beauty and what we deem as what's valuable and what's not valuable. Hence, a lot of these young ladies in sport don't receive the support because a lot of other young ladies don't necessarily care about sports the way they do. So they're unique. They're in a little bubble. And a lot of the men do, because kind of that's our bubble. So I have a couple points here for reasons for gender disparities in NIL earnings. Point number one, give me a ding there, town. Ding. Media coverage. Men's football and basketball receive disparagingly more national TV time and media attention, driving higher sponsorships and interest along with deal values. Point number those ding. Revenue generation. Men's sports often generate more ticket sales, merchandise, and broadcast revenue, influencing the scale of the NIL offer. Point number three social media influence. While some female athletes excel here, overall, men's teams may have longer built-in fan bases. That's unfortunately hard to get around. And last but not least, historical bias. And this is the point that Aaron Atown's standing on. Long-standing investment in men's sports and institutional moments continue to shape the NIL landscape. And once again, this is the narrative in the hill that the lady has to climb. I know this episode has been really aggressive when it comes to the ladies, but I think that's exactly what this episode should be about. They gotta get over the stigma. The male investment has been bordered and belt around the stigma. It's affected the NIL in a massive way. To the point to where maybe some companies are afraid to not go that route. You think Gatorade, you think Nike. Now, how about this? I don't like to even shout out Nike for many reasons, but you gotta give them some generalized props. If you pay attention to a lot of their commercials, when they promote men and they promote women, they balance it out relatively well. They do. It's not over sexualized. They really do pimp and drive in hard the skill aspect.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

And I really like the one that what what was it? Uh the basketball company for Caitlin Clark. Uh Wilson? Wilson? Wilson. Or is is it's a different one. But there was a commercial that they put uh together for her. It was a great commercial.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

So let's let's take that narrative. Now, with that in mind, you've got the main point being the main point. It's the skill. Right? It's the skill. Now, once again, when you go to a WNBA game and you see Caitlin Clark do her thing, everybody knows that they consider her the female version of Steph Curry, right? So there's a relative male association. Hence you start to notice them taking pictures together, right? All of a sudden, oh Steph Curry standing next to Caitlin Clark. It's incredibly marketable. Now you got little girls over there going, I want to hit threes like Caitlin Clark because there's an association with the NBA version, and whenever she's on the court, they sell out. You see more little girls on the court now. Now who's paying her her salary? Men. The NBA. Oh for sure. But in the end, though, she has the power to make the change. It just takes time and consistency.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:20

She has all the ability to make the change. And the want to do it, though. But that's that's the other thing, right? Because that is a lot of responsibility on one particular person. It does. And and you know, I I think she's got the platform to be able to make that big change. It's just w will she and I think she has so far. I think she's making the right strives and steps to kind of bring these young ladies up. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:43

I think it's just about changing the perspective of that next generation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Well, what does that mean, Santa? You said it like a robot again.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:53

All right. So anyway, like when the next generation coming up, are you what are they gonna be influenced by? Are they gonna be influenced by this the same things that women are already putting their time into health, beauty, DIY, whatever is drawing their attention, or are they gonna pay attention maybe a little bit more to sports? Are are they gonna you know widen the uh type of content they consume?

Changing The Narrative With Skill-First Marketing

SPEAKER_05 1:13:18

Yeah, like you said, it takes someone to to make that change. And if Caitlin Clark is gonna do that and these girls are gonna go to these games and you know attribute her to Steph Curry, and like you said, oh, I can imagine myself being like her one day. That's all it takes is one person to really change that narrative going forward for a whole generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

I've got an athlete that's a true victory athlete. Her name is Jaslyn Bowman. She is a massively talented basketball player. I've I've been following jazz and I had the blessing of training jazz, and she's gonna be one of those next big faces. She has the it factor, she has the skill, she has the attractiveness, she's got the attitude, she's funny, she's great on camera, she's got all the ability in the world. In fact, we're gonna create a snippet about this and tag her on it because it's just the truth. She is an up-and-coming all-star. She has all the makings of being that young lady that continues to change the image. Every single time I've seen jazz being promoted, it's always been right. It's never been over cutified. It's always been based upon how dope she is as a hooper. And that's the one thing I've appreciated about her. When she does her own social stuff, she doesn't do that. She doesn't take that route. She doesn't go, she can go cosmetic, but it's never gonna be so overblown to where it's like, whoa. I mean, but dudes go watch her hoop. Her her her male counterparts at her high school, they all say she's just the filthiest hooper the girl could get down. They want to see her go and do her thing in college. She's earned her respect. It wasn't about flowers, it was about people recognizing what she was capable of. Plus, she has all the other pieces that make her incredibly marketable, right? Now, good example. Let's take men. We talked about you can be, you know, dog face ugly and still and still make money on the NIL. But mark my words on this. Take Steph Curry. Steph Curry has a lot more than just incredible ability. He's an attractive dude. He's got like hazel eyes or something mess, right? I mean deep into his eyes. Yeah, you just look deep into Steph's eyes. It's like, oh my lord. But with that, with that in mind, though, he's complete package. He's a great communicator, he's funny, and he's elite, right? Yeah. So on the back end, he's gonna make that much more because he's remarkably marketable, right? So the more often we see that in the women's game, I think the more often it's gonna allow other women to follow suit. But I agree with the other point that you made, A Town, is you need more women that are bold enough to do that to get all the other women to steer away from the other stuff. And I agree, it's not fair. It's not fair that they feel like they have to be typecasted. It's not fair that the the media, the marketers, the the brands dump that on them immediately because they know that's their quick buck. It's not right. It's not fair. It's gonna take a war and a battle from all the women that are down to fight it, that have all the gifts and all the skills that they've been given by God to go out and make the difference. Make the change. Be the change. Don't just talk about it and then float back. Don't be that person. Don't complain about it and just stay in the background.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:23

Uh don't let the opportunity blow past your uh blow past your porch.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:27

We're ready for the women's game.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:29

All right. Literally, I'm jazzed up about the women's game growing, and from there, the more often I think people talk about this, and and they hear it from the male side, that these women are valued. That we see it. We see it. They go to the no shot podcast and they know the no shot podcast is all about them. I mean, we bring on guests, we make sure that people understand that the women's game is important, and we understand the men's game is what it is, right? There's some incredibly talented men, there's some incredibly talented women. Personally, trainer Mike's on the women's side. I just signed my first professional deal with a women's team. I mean, D-Rocks with the Phillies. I could have gone over there, but there's something about the energy that's being around these ladies that that think differently. You know what I mean? And I and I'm slowly but surely going getting away from mirroring them to men. But maybe it's hunger, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

Maybe it's it's the drive and the hunger that you're you're you're attracted to as far as women's sports goes, right? Because men, you know, we get into the locker room where we love sports yay. But you know, uh at least with women, you you know that they're grinding it out, they're hustling, they're they they want it. Right. And I think that's refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

But let's add to that. So um the owner of the vibe, the Florida Vibe, shout out. He made a point just like that. He said when he was running collegiate leagues during the COVID time frame, right? He said that the vast majority of the guys that were out at the collegiate league before everything got shut down were being super lazy. If they felt a little sniffle, they would leave. They would just leave, right? The women, he said he could not get them off the field. He's like, these girls are so tough. He's like, these girls are dogs. They're hitting baths, they're hitting bumps, they're sprinting. They don't give, they're not even gonna try and tell you that they're sick in any way, shape, or form. You want to know why? Because they're grittier, they're hungrier, and they want more. He's like, the dudes are used to it. They could go any collegiate league, they could go anywhere. It's it doesn't matter to them. These girls are hungry. The opportunity is there, and know what they want to show off? Not a dress, they want to show off their skill. Now you can interrupt me, Santa.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:45

Yeah, uh the man call took those men out. That's all you wanted to say. That's terrible. I mean, that's that is a real thing for a lot of guys. Yeah. Like, you know, they get sick and oh, I'm I'm useless.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:59

Yeah, because I just want to lay in bed all day. Do you think that's that's guys taking their situations for granted? Like 100. Like, right? I mean the chip on the shoulder is not as great.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

Definitely. And it and it's one of those things where it's like I play, yeah, I'm I'm good. I got my spot. I'm off right, right. Deuces, I'm out. Um, and is it more with is it more with baseball? Because I kind of feel like players in baseball get a little bit lazier than dudes in other sports and stuff like that. Shots fired. I'm just saying, the only reason why I say that is because like I used to know somebody way back in the day and knew a ball player that played for the Rays, and they said that you know some of these pitchers wouldn't do anything, man. They would just sit there.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:48

You know, shout out to Austin Newt, my dog. He's a baller. Go bulls. There you go. Go bulls. Like, Newt gets down. Newt was a hard worker, he was a pitcher. And I'm not saying that that it's all players. No, no, no, no. I was actually about to jump in and agree with you because a lot of them dudes are soft. Okay. Like, you can't deny it.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:04

Baseball has a rep for that.

Grit, Hunger, And What Audiences Reward

SPEAKER_01 1:20:05

Because it's true. Okay. It's true. Like, but but that's the other thing. You look at the women's side of the game, these girls aren't telling you that their wrists are broke. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:14

So are you saying men's college baseball is like the air force of sports? I dare not ever say such a thing. Oh, shot spar.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

That's real shot spar. You do. I dare not ever say such a thing, especially since the owner of Truvik. Oh my gosh, Santa, what are you doing? I'm sorry. We just lost our endorsement deal. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:39

And my pops.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:42

And my tattoo! What the fuck? Oh my gosh. They were all Air Force. I didn't rebox that. Oh man. Oh, wait ago, Santa. You just buried yourself. But that's okay. That's alright.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:56

Oh my lord. Aaron's over there dying.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:01

Because he said it with a straight face of like, no, that's gonna happen to the Air Force.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

Oh my gosh. So so to cap this episode, honestly, how about this? For all of you guys that looked into this, true for the brand itself and for the No Shot podcast, we take a lot of notes. I'm looking at a table right now covered in notes of people that actually care about the NIL process and women, especially in the NIL process. I think we just need to go back, reassess, and then from there, ladies gotta determine what's important. You see what's going on, you see the narrative. Are you willing to buck it? Are you willing to fight it? Are you willing to not adhere to it? Are you willing to set the bar higher and give everyone the examples on why it should be set higher and support it? And who can you get to support? Everybody. Just support, you know, just come out there. That's all it is. It really is. I think it's worth watching. I love it. And right now, this is the time to put your pedal, your foot to the floor. Just go all gas, no brakes. Crash through some walls, that bus ain't gonna crack. There's a lot of there's a lot of talent. And stop asking. Take it.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:22

Yeah. And I love that, I love that mindset. Don't ask, take it. You better be ready. 100. You better be ready. Don't you dare come up to that table acting like you're owed something and you ain't ready. Because that's the problem. Sorry for yelling at you, ladies, but that's the problem. Don't go around screaming that you deserve something when you ain't put in the work to go get it. And once again, that's disrespectful to all the women that went before you that did put in the work to go get it. Don't do that. Don't be that. Don't come up there trying to just prettify and not be ready to go up there and stand and deliver a product.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

That's right. Don't do it. Because 100% WNBA would never exist until somebody, until one of these ladies said, we deserve to play ball on a national level, too.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:05

You keep playing the victim, it's not gonna pay out for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

And that brings us to Tri Trivia.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

All right. All right, man. All right. The uh during Duke University's uh the postseason uh broadcast in 2021, ESPN in uh ESPN announcers, Anish Shafford and Mike Galen Gallik Jr. Uh tried two tried uh a disgusting food combination. Which two food uh food combinations was this? A strawberry, jelly, and hot Doritos, B chocolate and tostitos. Mike's face, and then C mayonnaise and Oreos.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:55

Calm out. D-Rock answered that without even a second thought. I'll tell you why after after he tells the answer, if it's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

What you got, A town?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

I don't want to answer. That sounds disgusting. Super disgusting. I know. I mean, uh I guess I guess toastitos and chocolate? That's the that's the That almost sounds tolerable. Exactly. Okay, what were the options one more time?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:22

A strawberry jelly and hot doritos. Oh my gosh. Spicy and sweet steaks. Chocolate and tostitos. You like the chocolate sauce and then go to chicken tostitos or something like that? Alright, and then uh see mayonnaise and Oreos. I hope I'm right because I was so confident.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:44

Honestly, I'm I I don't know. You know what? D-Rock's our special guest host for the day. Let's let's rock with the D-Rock and D-Rock.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:52

Yeah, it's mayonnaise and Oreos. Was it because they were playing in the dude?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:59

It was the mayonnaise actually, um, so instead of dumping Gatorade on them, they dumped mayonnaise on the on the coach.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

Hey Tao, give D-Rock a ding, my boy. Ding! Give him another ding, my boy! Ding! And now we that should have been the whack question. We got the coming. This was way worse. Are you kidding me, my bro?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:20

Oh my god. Which of these is an actual race people bet on in Greensville, Wisconsin? You know it's gonna be whack.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:31

Just does Greensville, Wisconsin something.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:35

You know it's gonna be whack. Alright. Lemon A catfish.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:41

Lemon A catfish. No, no, no. Oh a catfish. I was doing something. What was the question again?

Trivia, Laughter, And Local Shoutouts

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

I'm crying. Alright, which one of these is a race that people bet on in Greensville, Wisconsin? Greensville, okay. Let's go. Catfish. The catfish race, uh, A. B. The rattlesnake race, or C, um, rolling pigeons. This is the real thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:16

C sounds so crazy, I'm going.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:18

But this is the real thing. They will breed pigeons that actually roll. And the one that rolls the farthest, like, like, just pigeon this round. Look it up, it's crazy. Just phonem birds eat all. No, they they are fat.

unknown 1:26:39

Of course they're fat.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:42

It's a lean bird.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:44

What you gotta tell your answer? Um yeah, I I guess the pigeon thing, because I don't I don't see how you can uh watch a catfish race and then I don't even think they got rattlesnakes up there, do they? I wouldn't think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:01

They're imported.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:03

They're imported for the race. For the race.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:05

I can't lie. Knowing Santa. Knowing Santa, all these things sound like they're Santa Sally, but for the first time ever, I just want to mark this point. I'm actually interested in knowing the answer to this absolutely absurd question. I am gonna go with rolling fat pigeons see.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:23

It's catfish.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:26

It's no shit. Oh man. That's that's the furthest thing from interesting is watching catfish race. I think the other the other question should have been this question and this question. I agree. I totally agree. We got mayonnaise, Oreos, and catfish. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:44

I don't think we've laughed that hard since stubby clap, but stubby clap. I'll have to bring that back somehow.

Final Takeaways & Sponsor Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:27:55

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SPEAKER_03 1:30:25

This has been the No Shot Podcast. Go check out the brand at TrueVictory.com and then go support the past by rating us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.