The Healing Power of Being Real About Our Pain and Our Parents | Ryan Deep

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Transcript

0:03

Hello, and welcome to the fresh perspectives podcast, where our intention is growing together. And leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan and I believe we each have incredible capacity to continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species and bring away more love and a lot less fear into the world and our daily lives. Changing can be hard. And I've found that even if nothing changes. Having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective can change everything. I'm glad you're here. All right. So today we are connecting with fellow human adventurer. And like your favorite maple syrup fresh from Vermont. My friend. And Ryan deep. Ryan is an it consultant and certified coach. Who as you will here has brought tremendous courage to a challenging journey. Being a child of divorce who was separated from his mom and sisters. Eventually graduating college and having success as an it consultant. Before chronic back pain created an impetus for him to take a brave leap into the unknown, quit his job and a relationship and move to the place in the world. He felt most drawn to. Not. To mention committing through this process even more fully to healing and grilling. Ryan was actually a coaching client of mine. And we worked together for five years before becoming a coach himself. And I'm so grateful to him for sharing his journey that I hope you will find helpful and inspiring In this conversation. We also talk about why we believe. In bringing this level of intention to our own healing and growth. How we can know there will be a return on investment of our time and energy spent. Ryan talks about the masks that we can wear and the challenges of listening to our intuition and trying to be authentic. Whatever that means. We talk about each of our experience of abandonment and moving toward understanding why our parents made some of the decisions that they did. How stress and emotions can play a role in pain. How hard it can be to know what may help. And we discussed the impact of loneliness and the power of taking the time to understand where we and others are coming from. Both as leaders at work and in our personal lives. And how that can have such a profound impact on our wellbeing. Keep it here.

Peter: 2:48

​All right, well, welcome Ryan. How are you today?

Ryan: 2:52

Doing really well. Pete, how are you, my friend?

Peter: 2:55

Yeah, doing great as well. It's good to be here together, getting this podcast kicked off. I'm really grateful for all your help getting us started. Just feeling really honored to begin to do this with you.

Ryan: 3:07

Thank you. I mean, I appreciate the opportunity. I believe in you and your message and just to have a hand in it means a lot.

Peter: 3:13

Thanks Ryan. Well, and I hope this is our message, this message of love and,

Ryan: 3:18

Yeah.

Peter: 3:19

and growth. And we just talking about where we might get started here is. Why bring this level of intention to growth? And maybe just to set up the context as well, you and I met, six, seven years ago now on a consulting gig. we'll keep it broad for now, but I just started coaching in the last couple years and fast forward we worked together for five years as client and coach. And you are now also a certified coach. And I think to a lot of people, it's still a weird world that professional coaching or life coaching, career coaching, there's lots of words we can put in front of it, but that this is a profession and that maybe, what we do is talk and not necessarily accomplish things. And so I just wanted to start off maybe reflecting on some of this life experience that you've had and how you think about. Growth and being intentional about personal developments? What do you feel like could set you on this path?

Ryan: 4:23

That's a great question. I think it was the realization that I was not living the life I wanted to live, the life that I, at least some part of me believed I deserved when I was younger. And I think that belief was slowly eroded over time through, the challenges of growing up and challenges in adulthood and such. And after looking in the mirror on numerous occasions saying this, this is not what I want. This is not who I want to be.

Peter: 4:53

Hmm.

Ryan: 4:53

Well change needs to happen. And did the process. Of that change is just a lot of intentional growth. It all starts with awareness.

Peter: 5:03

Yes, all starts with awareness. And I love that change needs to happen. Change is inevitable. Right. But there's the inevitability of change and then there's trying to bring some awareness, as you're saying, some intention to change. And one of the things I notice is that can feel for some overwhelming for others, impossible for others, just. So uncertain that it's hard to find a real inner motivation. This intrinsic motivation to, all right, well let me sit down and be uncomfortable. intentionally, right? Another one. Get comfortable being uncomfortable, but to actually take the time to sit and discomfort and reflect and ask ourselves, you know, the bigger questions what do I want. But even starting somewhere a little bit, you know, lighter, maybe can feel. Yeah. Uncomfortable or useless. What's coming in your mind?

Ryan: 6:00

I mean, what's coming up for me and I've reflected on the sort of stuff when it comes to navigating a challenge and a kinda relationship, but you mentioned, you know, discomfort and being comfortable, being uncomfortable. I think one of the things that can happen for a lot of people, myself included, is once again the awareness of the current discomfort. If we're telling ourselves. at least I was telling myself, a lie essentially that I was comfortable. Or maybe that was, the truth, but maybe there's the part of my body, my brain, that did not want that comfort either. I'm sure we'll touch on many paradoxes throughout this But I do feel like that's another piece of it is just change is uncomfortable, but often keeping the status quo is also uncomfortable, potentially more so or at least more so in the long run. So it's like, do I weigh potential years longer of discomfort that might be growing steadily over time, or do I spend. Some intentional time now, whether it be weeks or months or however long, and once again, intentional discomfort with the hopes that I'm creating something better in the future.

Peter: 7:20

Yes. Yeah, the hopes, right? I think that's, to me, that's such a sticking point here of like, well, maybe, right? And on the other side to what you're saying, well, maybe this relative comfort that I have, one of the analogies that's often brought up is living in the matrix, I'll continue to take this red pill and ignorance is bliss, and let me hope that just by. Somewhat unconsciously, doing my best in every moment that I'll create the most comfort I can in my life and so much is completely outta my control, that it doesn't feel like there's a lot of confidence, a lot of hope that reading some books, talking to a coach, a therapist, some third party who might be able to hold some space for us to be uncomfortable it's hard to know. Maybe impossible to know that there's going to be, I often come back to you as a business student, return on investment. There's gonna be ROI to that time spent. How do you think about that? Why do you feel a sense of trust, hope, confidence that this time is well spent.

Ryan: 8:30

I mean now she pointed out, we really can't know there is no way really to know. And I think part of it for me, comes down to intuition and asking myself these types of questions do I think there's possible that I get greater r o roi doing the thing or trying to stay the. And for myself, what I've seen is when I'm looking at the latter half of that, the staying the same. It's like, well, based off of how I feel currently and how I could potentially predict what this path is gonna bring, I'm not sure if I like how that turns out

Peter: 9:13

Right.

Ryan: 9:14

And, there's no way of knowing that jumping into the change is gonna be better. But generally speaking, I do feel just growth, I see that as a good thing. I might not grow in the way that I wanted to grow. I might not have grown in the way that I was, hoping or I had envisioned. But I'm sure I grew in a way

Peter: 9:38

Hmm.

Ryan: 9:39

that will likely have a positive impact in my life in the future.

Peter: 9:45

I love your optimism and your belief there. It's beautiful. It really is. It really is. And you're touching on something that I think we both share and that I think a lot of people who go to the self-help section, one of my less favorite terms in this genre, but because we're suffering, there's so much pain. That it feels even more likely that some amount of intention, some amount of effort in a different direction, is likely to not feel worse than what we're feeling now. I mean, in many ways that feels like my journey and experience from divorced parents to ultimately graduating college and not knowing what the heck I wanted to do, to recognizing that I experienced a pretty significant amount of anxiety and going through a lot of therapy and really seeing some of these wounds that I've been carrying around and recognizing I don't know what the right or best way is. And you know, you mentioned intuition earlier. I don't even know how to listen to my intu. I love this idea. Oh, some part inside of me knows better than my logical brain ever could. And yet, how do I tap into that? How do I listen to it? And I'm very much still on that journey. And yet I feel much closer than I did 10, 15 years ago when I was just mostly swimming in the matrix and not taking steps. And the word that's coming up here is curiosity, just opening myself to being curious. And I love acknowledging how much courage, curiosity takes, especially in our culture where we're supposed to have all the answers, we're supposed to know, there is a clear path to success if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer or a pilot or whatever. Like here's what you do. You can get there. And this absolute fallacy of once you get whatever external things success that you feel like you want, you'll then feel a deeper level of happiness and satisfaction. And I started my path reading a lot of books right after college. Of successful people who had made a lot of money and had a lot of external success, and every one of them said, it didn't fill the holes or the unsatisfaction that I was feeling in myself, it didn't heal these wounds or clarify what was important in life. To me, that's a whole different inner journey, and that, for better or worse, has sent me on this path of like, all right, well let me focus more on that than the external rewards. And now I love to come back to harmony. The word we talk about a lot, how do I harmonize. Creating this conditions and the external circumstances, having a home, having a family with healing. Some of these wounds, not passing on to use kind of a loaded word, historical trauma that I do believe lives in most of us, if not all of us, to different degrees. Healing some of that so that this pain that, I'm experiencing isn't transferred to my children, to the next generation.

Ryan: 12:48

There's, there's a lot there. One thing that was coming up for me when you were talking about suffering is this place from, in my perspective, there is known suffering and unknown suffering.

Peter: 13:01

Yeah.

Ryan: 13:02

I feel like throughout a lot of my life, I've been aware of some of the suffering,

Peter: 13:08

Hmm.

Ryan: 13:09

but there was a lot left just beneath the surface that either I couldn't see, or I was actively trying to block out of my mind or whatever it was. And I will acknowledge that the path to growth and the path to trying to heal some of that. I mean, it fucking sucks sometimes unless it goes be real. When some of that, that unknown suffering is now on the surface, I'm like, oh, I see why I pushed you away

Peter: 13:37

yes. Awareness creates choice. It does not immediately heal or clarify, right. What we need to do with this or, yes. Yeah. Such a comic experie.

Ryan: 13:49

So yeah, the path is often I think even more painful for a time.

Peter: 13:56

Yeah.

Ryan: 13:57

But once those wounds are on the surface, then they can be properly bandaged and got the Neosporin and all of that and being taken care of rather than just festering below the surface. So. When you're talking about suffering, I felt like that was an important part of my own journey to call out

Peter: 14:15

totally. And I'm wondering if an example that you might be willing to share comes to your mind there, knowing you for as long as I have and getting to coach together for years, I can think of 20 instances in your life, none of which you have to share. And I'm curious, just to make this more tangible what feels like something that you weren't aware of, that you've brought to the surface? And maybe even just speaking about how challenging that was to begin with before even going into the solving or somewhat healing.

Ryan: 14:42

I think one of the big ones is coming up for me right now is the mask that I used to wear. pretty much all the time around certain family members.

Peter: 14:55

Hmm.

Ryan: 14:55

I think this would've been initial awareness to this probably came in about 2018. And I was visiting my mother who divorced my father when I was about two years old and moved hundreds of miles away. So growing up I only saw her once or twice a year. And I remembered as a kid, something feeling off. About that. I would visit and I would be there like this is my mom, this is the person who brought me into the world. These are my sisters. Why do I not feel like a part of this family? And I think that's a very challenging concept for a child to work through. Cause it's a challenging concept for adults to work through

Peter: 15:40

Yes.

Ryan: 15:41

And what ended up happening for me is I kind of just like brushed it aside eventually as a kid. And they're like, all right, well now I don't have to do as many visits. It's not a big deal. And then in early adulthood, I was like, okay, well I just, I see you hear this person for Christmas. It's just a part of the routine at this time. But in 2018, I remember a longer visit, and that kind of brought up some of the feelings that I would deal with as a child during longer visits in that first week, it's just novel. It's just a vacation. So I'm in, that novelty mindset. This is a new place doing something out of the norm. emotions aren't, as, present at that time or at least on the surface. But I had chosen to do a two week stay and, starting in that second week, I was like, oh, this kind of feels familiar. This kind of brought me back to when I was a kid staying for four plus weeks at a time. And that was the moment when I did some reflecting with a girlfriend at the time and. I think that was the first time I used the phrase wearing a mask of this feeling like I am supposed to be someone in this relationship like I am. I am the son, I am the brother.

Peter: 16:57

Hm.

Ryan: 16:59

I do not feel like either of those things.

Peter: 17:03

Yeah.

Ryan: 17:04

And and when I reflected on it further I just had this realization that I think as a child, the feeling was I was a foreign exchange student just coming in for a little bit of time, welcomed, with an open heart, open arms and all of that, but not a member of the family

Peter: 17:23

Yeah. A feeling of belonging.

Ryan: 17:26

feeling the belonging. And so I think that disconnect. Really weighed on me growing up, and I started to recognize the way it weighed on me as an adult.

Peter: 17:38

Hmm.

Ryan: 17:38

And that really opened the door to the larger reflection of well, where else am I wearing masks? This is a foundational relationship. I mean, once again, the woman who brought me into the world, if I don't feel like I can be myself around her, there's a good chance. I probably don't feel like I can be myself around plenty of other people,

Peter: 18:01

Right.

Ryan: 18:01

So that was something I sat with for a while, just trying to figure out what to do. And, kind of fast forward, about a year and a half or so during the pandemic. I was given the opportunity to move in with her. And I mean, at that time I was like, well, I'm just staying inside my townhouse in New York, just waiting for the days to pass. What better opportunity to try to work through, these like lifelong childhood challenges than right now. So, the world was already a shit storm. Figured might as well just lean into it,

Peter: 18:41

All right. You're the only one who moved in with their mom during covid, so

Ryan: 18:44

def definitely not. But pr probably one of the only ones who hadn't lived with that one, that person ever before, though that's probably not, there's probably not too many of us who went from the last time we truly lived in the same house would've been when I was one and a half years old.

Peter: 19:00

Wow. Yeah.

Ryan: 19:01

So fast forwarding that, 30 years later with the intention to just work through whatever needed to be worked through. And, first of all, to whoever's listen is, I guess I need to share appreciation for my mother for being open to that. Like that. That's gotta be scary in and of itself for both of us. It wasn't just scary for me.

Peter: 19:25

right. And how much, I'm just curious right now, how much of this was an explicit intention with your mom? Right? Cause we're talking about bringing a level of awareness and that awareness doesn't necessarily solve anything, but it can help us make a choice. Where you explicit with your mom about there's practical reasons for this, and how did you decide together? To what degree was that sort of explicit?

Ryan: 19:49

That's a great question. I think I started becoming explicit before the pandemic. I think the first step would've been probably about November, 2019, and I had just worked through months of chronic back pain and traced that pain to my relationship with her.

Peter: 20:12

Wow.

Ryan: 20:12

And so once I was confident that was the source of so much pain I was carrying in my body, I brought it up to her and this is what I'm going through. And I think even at that point I mentioned wearing the mask and, you know, the emotional journey that had led up to that conversation. And I mean, admittedly not much. Changed for a while. She was going through some of her own life challenges, so we kind of just didn't talk really for a few months. But then, after the pandemic started and just trying to keep in touch like a little bit, that eventually the opportunity to move out there came up And I did try to make it clear that this is something that we're considering doing. We need to be intentional about it. You know, I'm not, I'm not going out there just to save money on rent. I could do that elsewhere, if I really wanted to it's recognizing this is going to be a challenge for both of us, but if we, want to mend our relationship in a significant way, I really. Believed it kind of required us to truly live in the same space for me to not just be, just passing through for one week. It's having, many dinners at the same table is letting life happen on its own and just talking through it little bit by bit for these organic moments of authentic communication to just happen instead of feeling forced.

Peter: 21:49

Right.

Ryan: 21:50

And I mentioned dinners because that was where some of those conversations did happen of trying to get more understanding of, well, why did you leave and why did things play out the way they did? And part of the healing came from recognizing the sacrifice that she made.

Peter: 22:12

Hmm.

Ryan: 22:13

I think as a child, it's natural for my brain and the brains of other children who have experienced something similar to go to abandonment.

Peter: 22:24

Yes.

Ryan: 22:26

And, I think that was what I carried for so long is that feeling of abandonment and that then impacted all of my other relationships. It basically led to me keeping pretty much everybody at a harm's length, because there is a belief that if my mother won't stick around, how the hell am I gonna convince this friend or this romantic partner to stick around?

Peter: 22:51

All right.

Ryan: 22:52

So by taking that leap of faith, try to work through some of this stuff. Once again, I mentioned recognizing her sacrifice, the sacrifice of her being a mother who wanted to be there, knowing that that was not the environment for her. Like my dad's wonderful. It was not my dad, it was just the fact of growing up in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. Not everyone is cut out for that.

Peter: 23:20

Yeah.

Ryan: 23:20

And she had some beliefs that she needed to work through. And I genuinely believe that she wanted me in her life. But believed ultimately that I was better off with my father, who, had the house, still had the stable job is just a wonderful human being and determined that I was best off with him

Peter: 23:50

Hmm.

Ryan: 23:51

and I can't to this day I'm not sure I'll ever fully understand the challenge of that sacrifice, but recognizing that it was a sacrifice is a critical piece in my healing process too.

Peter: 24:04

Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. Right. It's brave of you and yeah, just really appreciate you putting it out here. And there are more threads that I wanna follow up on than we could possibly have time for it's just amazing to me what draws each of us together and like we're saying, what leads us down a certain path to make certain choices. And understanding why, the fact that you took the time and I wanna say had the courage to actually ask and check in on that. It's reminds me of sort of the phrase that it's hard to hate up close, right? That when we really understand someone's reasoning, While we might not totally agree with it or actually fully understand my experience has certainly been that getting more information can, at the very least, doing this data collection, help us to some degree empathize so I'm just always amazed at how relatable certain people's experiences are, even though they're a totally different human who have grew up so differently, have totally different backgrounds, and yet for as many differences as we have, we have just as many, if not likely, more overlaps and things that are in common. I mean, you and I, it's interesting how we wound up connecting and then realizing we both had a similar experience with our moms. It looks very different. And similarly, my parents got divorced and I wound up living with my dad. and I've recognized a feeling, a sense of abandonment in myself and have gone through all kinds of stages of anger and resentment, and yet gratefully have gotten to have so many conversations with my mom as well asking and both sitting in the discomfort of having these conversations and trying to understand like, what happened there? Why did you decide to leave and make these decisions? And there's still more healing to do for me, for sure. And yet I feel closer to my mom than I have since she was a stay-at-home mom and raised my brother and I before we were six or seven, and she was no longer in the house. And I got to see her much more than you do. So we have, it's very different and yet, I've had a similar experience of taking that time to ask and to her credit for her sharing as well has helped the healing process. And again, the awareness, creed's choice. I can choose what to do with that information just like you have. And I just continue to hope that having the courage to create the space is one way to say it, to ask these questions, to slow down and have these conversations, despite it being uncomfortable in the short term, has a lot of potential to really help ease the suffering the way you might be experiencing. Maybe to your point earlier, even more under the surface than explicitly. So again, I'm just really grateful to you for sharing and one thread that I wanted to pick up on as well, Ryan, is the back pain piece. Cause I think you kind of, touched on this chronic back pain that you traced back to your mom and kind of kept going. And I could hear a lot of minds saying what do you mean you traced your back pain back to your mom? So maybe we've heard of psychosomatic and I think the, I've seen the healthcare system begin to slowly open to these connections of wow, our stress really leads to a lot of physical ailments. I think that's probably the most direct one that I see often. But there's all kinds of connections that can occur. And again, acknowledging uncertainty there's not always this direct cause and effect. The world is complex, there's so many variables. But I'm curious to hear what you're having this pain and the discomfort. What are some of the things that helped you connect that to this experience with your mom?

Ryan: 27:45

Yeah. Thank you for asking. That was a whole journey and of itself. So I try not to get too long into this, but I was, so this has been like August, 2019. I mean, at this point I'd already been dealing with back pain of some sort for many months. But it was minor, it was manageable. But there was a one day I was, I was doing my consulting job. I remember being on site at a standing desk, and it went from a little uncomfortable to extreme very quick. And I saw my chiropractor, saw my physical therapist. The pain was just as bad the following day and. It got to the point where I'm an IT consultant. My job is at the computer and I felt that just sitting at the computer was just so significantly aggravated the muscles between my shoulder blades that I didn't feel like I could even do my job.

Peter: 28:45

Wow.

Ryan: 28:46

So I took a leave of absence for, I think it was about a month and a half, two months before a friend of mine just passed along a book called Healing Back Pain by Dr. John Sarno. And I listened to that audio book on my way to visit my grandmother shortly before she passed, which is naturally very stressful, emotionally intense situation. But the primary thesis of the book, based off of his thousands of patients, is that the majority of chronic back pain that people experience is emotional in nature. It is the result of repressed emotions in particular, he often says, like, rage.

Peter: 29:34

Hmm.

Ryan: 29:34

somebody who tends to be fairly happy, go-lucky and anger is not really something that I seem to experience much. The idea that I've got all this repressed rage contributing to my experience was a lot to process,

Peter: 29:48

Yeah.

Ryan: 29:49

but just listening to the audiobook reduced my pain by about 75%. Just knowing that the pain could be coming from emotions, basically let my body relax enough to reduce some of that pain.

Peter: 30:07

You referenced could be because there's a lot of books, there's a lot of things that are put out there in the world. that could be true. And yet what I'm hearing is regardless of how evidence-based his work was, it resonated with you.

Ryan: 30:21

it did

Peter: 30:21

level of awareness that like, oh, this could be a factor, and just that alone

Ryan: 30:26

Well cuz, I mean, at that, at that point, I had, I'd been seeing a chiropractor, a physical therapist, like twice a week. For a couple of months I'd gone to specialists and the most I could get from anyone was that my scoliosis was causing the problem. I mean, the scoliosis that I've had my entire life, that's never really been that big of a deal. There was no car accident, there was nothing else for it to go from a minor annoyance to taking me out of work.

Peter: 30:56

Right.

Ryan: 30:57

So I think, yes, it was, could be the case, but when I reflected on the experience of the past few months, in the book he calls out getting, a slip disc or whatever it is. I'm like, I, I already did that. They can't seem to find anything significant that's contributing to this. So now I'm presented with a new possibility and yeah, I mean this definitely seemed to be the root of my challenge, but did bring up a new question, which is, what the hell am I repressing if I'm repressing rage? Like, that's okay. Something that was something very deep down inside of me that I need to define. And the way I traced that to my mother in particular was he also mentioned like recognizing that when you, once you're doing some of this work, the pain might go to a different body part. So once I knew it could, and also just the repressed emotions can manifest in our spots too, back as a, as a is a core one, but there are other possible locations. So that led me doing a little bit of internal analysis, like, okay, well when have I experienced chronic pain? And one of the examples in the forefront of my mind was getting chronic migraines back in high school which I had my very first migraine, basically the day after visiting my mother and I traced another bit of pain to like, oh, that started about the day after I visited my mother and then I was like, all right could be coincidence, but there could be something more here. And as I dug into it, that's when I started to realize, okay, oh, that, that's right. Like a year ago I was wearing the mask. That was also a challenging experience, and all of the pieces seemed to come together in point to something to do with her.

Peter: 32:55

Wow.

Ryan: 32:55

Yeah.

Peter: 32:56

Thank you again. Yeah. Just to be able to reflect back on those moments and I mean, our brains are pattern making computers, we're always looking for those quizzes, and I love your sort of shared, you know, skepticism or maybe and yet the openness, right? And the. Often, Carol Dweck would call it the growth mindset, right? As opposed to a fixed mindset well, here's what I understand about the world so far. So maybe there's just physical things that happen and maybe there's something else going on underneath here. And just having that openness without needing to have an answer. And yet being open to, maybe as we started this like, well this, sure, I can't know what's gonna help and I know I want to keep trying because this is so uncomfortable. And yeah, being able to use that as persistent motivation rather than victim sort of resignation to this is what my life's gonna look like. There's nothing I could, you know, I got a doctor, he, they said it was scoliosis. There's nothing they could do to fix it. I got a second opinion. They said nothing. So guess this is what I have to live with now I'm curious what's helped you? Maybe getting a little bit more practical too, what's helped you build that grit, that resilience, that consistent motivation and I'm happy to share from both of us. That is not a consistent growth line of yesterday I was a little less than today I'm even more resilient. Right. I know for both of us it has ebbed and flowed, but I'm just curious to hear what you feel like has really, I wanna reference like skills or practices have supported you in continuing to create the energy to move toward these things. Because having chronic pain is exhausting all by itself and it's not easy, especially after we've gotten a bunch of, I don't knows to say all right, well I'm not gonna give up on myself.

Ryan: 34:51

Yeah. I wanna answer that question in a couple different ways. So just looking at resilience kinda as a whole, I will recognize the fact that meditation has been a critical piece in that journey for myself.

Peter: 35:04

me too.

Ryan: 35:05

It wasn't necessarily a critical piece at that time of working through the back pain. I've really started to build that practice after the back pain and listening to that audio book. I do think it's important to recognize it's not, I won't call it a skill, but I'll call it a practice of, building relationships, trying to create some form of a support system.

Peter: 35:31

Hmm.

Ryan: 35:31

Ideally a mutual support system whether that's family members, friends, romantic partner, whatever it is. I likely would not have been introduced to that book if it hadn't been for a friend.

Peter: 35:46

Right.

Ryan: 35:47

I wasn't searching for that.

Peter: 35:49

Hmm.

Ryan: 35:50

And maybe part of me had felt kind of defeated. I wasn't looking up, what other ways can I try to resolve my back pain? It was oh, the doctor told me. And I might have felt like kind of resigned to it at that time, but a friend was able to break through and say, here, just it's 10 bucks, three hours long, probably worth a listen.

Peter: 36:11

Nice.

Ryan: 36:11

Why not And in between, getting that book clerk recommendation from a friend. in a romantic relationship at the time, having access to some other family members and such, I think that has made the challenges a bit more manageable. And, I think part of why I want to recognize that kind of comes from one of the other like main things that came up for me in this entire journey. So, moving halfway across the country during the pandemic to live with my mother and work through all of that. I skimmed through a lot of that story. It was many months odds. Clearly there's gonna be a lot more there, but it, really did highlight something else that's very important, which is the challenges that loneliness can create.

Peter: 37:03

Yes.

Ryan: 37:03

I just spoke about the benefits of having a support system. I didn't always feel like I had that support system. I mean, whether it's growing up and through just circumstance, being in a small town, dealing with certain challenges related to that. Whether it is keeping people at arm's length due to, not ideal attachment style because of my mother leaving, or just the challenges of trying to maintain quality in-person friendships while we're all locked inside, whatever it is that the journey that I went through made it so clear to me how much of my personal suffering. Has stemmed from loneliness or not feeling connected. And I bring all of this up because, that's the part that still sits with me. This is my experience. This is my experience as a straight white man in America.

Peter: 38:04

Yes.

Ryan: 38:05

Holy shit. Does my heart hurt for the variety of experiences that people are going through in this country and all over the world?

Peter: 38:12

Amen.

Ryan: 38:13

If this is what I can do to me, I cannot fully imagine what it's doing to other people. And I'd like to say that I've got the answers of how to help. I don't. But I know it's important and I feel like that this experience has given me some purpose to recognize that particular type of suffering, and at least know that I care enough to try to help however that turns out.

Peter: 38:41

Wow. Beautiful. Yeah. Caring enough to try. I'm hearing about yourself, this loaded term of self-compassion and caring about others as well, and feeling into the. What is the, the Dai Lama calls it wise selfishness, to be of service, to help, help others, can also be of great benefit to ourselves, right? For if you want to be happy, help others be happy. And obviously the world is not that simple and cut and dry. And yet trying to remember again, these little bits of wisdom that can help guide our actions, to check in with all right, how am I doing right now? What do I need and what might be holding me back from allowing myself to move toward that need? What are the fears, concerns? And one of my favorite tools in here, Ryan, is just acknowledging, trusting that each of those fears we come by completely. Honestly, this is kind of a deeper psychological concept, but just the idea that. All human behavior exists to meet our underlying needs. And it can be hard to trace that back and understand what those needs are. And yet to recognize like whatever I'm doing, whatever someone else is doing, they do have a reason. It might not be conscious, but some part of each of us is trying to get our needs met. Whether it's to feel seen and heard, or to just feel connected like you were saying, or just a sense of, basic acceptance and autonomy, whatever it might be. Just getting those needs met. And that brings up for me too, this loneliness is something else we shared and and rage as well. And I really have traced some of my own rage. Part of my shtick in the past that I won't bring up too much is that I kind of say I'm a recovering jerk. And I just said that because I would just feel rage and anger at very strange random things that people would do. Often it was at home, but the dishwasher isn't loaded correctly. Or someone used the sponge that is not for that activity. Whatever it is, these silly little things that then rage come up in me. And part of what I've traced back is that, and you talked about being authentic as well, I felt like in my life, whatever my weird intricacies are, weren't always allowed or accepted or even acknowledged, whatever it is by my family members friends. And I felt a certain amount of distance. And that just made me angry about feeling lonely maybe, and ultimately not having some of these needs met of really feeling understood and accepted. And like you said a sense of belonging to any sort of group. And I just find our, our society, our culture doesn't have a lot of tradition or ritual or structure or ways to support us in really connecting to. Each other and ultimately these underlying needs. And we get very focused on external things and checking the boxes and keeping up with the Joneses rather than really checking with what do I need and what could that look like and how could we structure our days and our lives and our systems and society to help meet our own in each other's needs as much as possible. Cuz I really trust that's how we then move toward a next level of going from surviving to thriving and really creating a life experience for more humans, to your point, especially those who don't have the privilege of having a chiropractor and a physical therapist and a care team and the resources to hire a coach or talk to a therapist. So, I know that's a lot in there, but I really appreciate your reflection on loneliness specifically and this burden that no individual hasn't necessarily put on us, but that the structures of our society seem to, whether it's intentionally or unintentionally support and create for so many of us. And the research supports this right, of the rampant ranks of anxiety, depression, loneliness, people during early days of Covid and even now, sort of having experiences where they're, you know, there's no one to come be with them at the hospital. There is no one else in their lives. And we just haven't been set up with many of the tools or the opportunity to find connection community. And, it certainly weighs heavily on me and is still something that I'm working on creating more of in my life. I continue to find it challenging.

Ryan: 43:08

Yeah. One thing's coming up is just, I do feel that our society in particular one of the core phrases is like, look out for number one, we're always looking out for number one Many of us are. At the beginning of this, I recognized, I was living the life I wanted to, that something, something felt wrong. And at that time I felt like I had career success. You know, I really had a place I really liked living in, had a beautiful car, all the things. But like something, once again, something's missing and looking back, there's something missing. Was more belonging. It's like, the shiny things don't really mean anything if I'm just enjoying them all by myself. I would rather trade the shiny things to have to have more people around me on my birthday or whatever it is, you know?

Peter: 44:02

right. And they don't necessarily attract people to us. I think one storyline that I can see in my own mind is like, oh, I'll have all these things. I'll really impress people. People will really like me, and so I'll have more friends

Ryan: 44:13

Yes. I, that exact train of thought had gone through my head. I'm sure with at least one of the car purchases. I'm like,

Peter: 44:19

And yet, my question becomes then, well, what really does attract more people to us? And I actually, I think about this for dating profiles and for just the way we show up in any given conversation or moment. My hope, I'm curious how you would respond to this. My hope is that and this is aspirational for me for sure, but a grounded authenticity, a lot of things I do with coaching clients is what are my values? What's really important to me? Who am I to whatever degree I can unpack that right now, and how can I show up as my weird, authentic self? I like the term authentic attunement, cause we can go, on a far side where we're uprooting so many social and cultural norms that it can be hard for anyone maybe to feel drawn to us. I don't really know, but I've, I've seen that show up in certain situations. And even in myself, it's like, I think I was out on left field there and people were just not getting what I was saying. But to be able to find this harmony and this paradox of authentic attunement, how can I both be myself and. Show up in a way that meets others where they are without losing my truth and while still being real with other people. And I just find this for myself to be a really challenging balance. How about you,

Ryan: 45:36

Hmm. Yeah. Well, I, I do agree about the challenge of that, and I, I, and what you're saying does, definitely does resonate with me. A challenge within that is, is trying to discern where other people are.

Peter: 45:50

That attunement.

Ryan: 45:51

yeah. It's, I also, as I want to call out in terms of, for myself, big piece of the journey is, is recognizing the need for vulnerability.

Peter: 46:02

Yes.

Ryan: 46:03

And, that's its own delicate dance of, how much to share, when to share all of that. But I'd like to think that dual gyps in my life to have the most staying power, that fill me up the most are the people that are able to sit and hear truly how my date went, or truly how I'm feeling about something. Rather than just expecting to hear fine when asked the question. You know, when asking the question, how was your day? And I mean, you mentioned, you know, dating, like that's, that's a part of my life right now. It sucks. It still sucks. not a fan for the most part, but every once in a while come across somebody who encourages vulnerability and there can be that authentic sharing of experience and maybe it doesn't turn into a relationship, maybe it doesn't even turn into a friendship, but just to have one or a few conversations where you can just talk about life with somebody else without putting all kinds of glitter on it. Just really sitting both in the challenge, but in the beauty like, Hmm. That's fantastic. And those moments help make all the other bullshit around dating a bit more manageable. But yeah, vulnerability, it's a critical piece.

Peter: 47:45

Absolutely. It's hard to imagine a much better note to end it on. Ryan, I'm racking my brain here for the best way to to help us lay on the plane here and, and come back to it. I mean, one other point that I do want to just touch on is both a, leadership and life coach, or the word that I'm currently going with and what you said, I think both applies to friends, romantic partners and colleagues and coworkers, and especially as leaders. I feel like one of the conversations that I'm often supporting leaders and practicing and flexing into is exactly what you said. How are you doing? Really, I, I actually want to know, and that can be a challenge in itself. Like, I, yet, Pete, I don't really care how people are doing. I just want them to be doing well enough to get the job done. And that says to me, I'm not sure you actually want to lead then, because my belief is that like, it's a Simon Sinek quote, leadership is not about being in charge. It's about caring for those in our charge. And this idea that, we are simply serving, supporting those who are doing other work. We're helping to communicate and coordinate for others in a way that allows them to be their best and to fulfill their potential and to share their gifts and ultimately get the work done. And when we're not showing, or actually feeling first and then showing Hey, you matter to me, like not the same as my partner or whatever, but you do matter. I do care to some degree. How you're doing and what's going on for you. And there's times to have longer conversations about that. But if we don't have enough time, whenever we check in and connect, especially when we only have short times on video chat, to to check in, to take some time to share those things, going back to the mom conversation, understanding why someone might be in a great mood, even more importantly in not a great mood and low energy can help us build empathy, can help us just have. A more honest and useful maybe response to that human being and my follow-up question is what do you need? What could help you? This is not to say you don't need to keep doing your work, this work does need to get done but forcing people to turn into production robots is not a realistic, sustainable approach. And I think we've seen that over these last few years of this great resignation. are refusing now to be not treated as human beings. And so trying to find this balance, this harmony between how much time do we spend connecting and then how much time do we spend chipping away and getting the work done? I dunno, I just really appreciate you framing this type of really asking how are you doing?

Ryan: 50:44

Yeah, a lot, A lot came up for me. When you were sharing that one thing just from, you had said previously, we're talking about connection, loneliness is, you know, helping people feel seen and heard. I love reflecting on that. Always. Part of how I try to operate in the world. Not that I'm always successful at that. I'm sure I fail at that all the time. But it is still an intention to help someone feel seen and heard. One thing I've started more recently tinkering with trying different relationships is the question of, how can I support you? Or what does support look like for you in a particular situation? Cuz that can change all the time. And, then coming back to, and I'm bouncing all over the place here, but you're talking, we're talking about leaders and such. And one thing that's coming up from me when reflecting on, vulnerability is even if a leader is to say, you know, how are you really, how are you? Like, I don't want hear just fine. You know, like, truly I care about you. There's still the possibility that people have just been so conditioned into their automatic response or fear of like, oh, they do. They genuinely mean I can say how I'm feeling. Or is this, is this a trick?

Peter: 52:04

yes. Am I gonna be judged and thought of as less than or unable to do the job now?

Ryan: 52:09

so I think that is still another challenge to work through. And one of the things that's coming, for me once again, vulnerability, if a leader is able to answer that question. And I asked myself how I'm doing here is how I'm honestly doing. I had an argument with my partner this morning. It still is kind of still kind of weighing on me, you know, I'm not, I don't feel as present in this meeting as I would like to feel. You know, that's just an example of like a brief share that starts to create that can potentially create the space and the opportunity for other people to then feel comfortable sharing.

Peter: 52:50

Yes. The psychological safety right is the term of art. But I love your point too, of the risk of that and part of leadership is going first. And yet, if you're in an environment where you're not sure if that's safe, or maybe you have some data that like, no, I'm, I'm pretty confident that this will be judged and looked at poorly. It's a hard place to maneuver from. Right? So my question often when I'm working with a leader going into an organization is to your point, how do we start this from the top down? How do we model that this is allowed? And how do we change slowly and consistently and steadily enough to help bring people along? Because I'm hopeful the world is moving in this direction and it is not happening overnight. And yet if you're not moving in this direction, you're also putting yourself in a ton of risk because ourselves and the younger generations are demanding. I think many people a level of realness, of openness, of vulnerability, so that we can have a more fulfilling, meaningful. Life experience rather than just going through the motions, hoping that we'll make it to retirement and then get to enjoy life like that is no longer, it just doesn't feel like a reality for so many of us in so many ways. And I think that's a gift, but it's also a challenge to what you're saying. And we've got a long mountain to climb with no summit to, to achieve as I like non-rival practice here. Thank you for sharing all that, Ryan. It's great.

Ryan: 54:22

Happy to, and I guess my hope is that more and more people can have conversations like this

Peter: 54:27

Mm.

Ryan: 54:28

and allow that to ripple out in hopefully positive ways that lead to the type of changes that we've been talking about for the past hour or however long.

Peter: 54:36

Amen. Thank you for stating my intention before I got a chance to I appreciate that It's growing together and leading with love. Yes. Right. Well, I'm feeling very seen and heard today through this conversation and you know, I hope you are too to some

Ryan: 54:53

oh, I definitely am.

Peter: 54:54

awesome. And I am confident we'll be doing this again. So we'll say goodbye for now and, and thank you again, Ryan.

Ryan: 55:02

Goodbye for now. Thank you, Pete. It's been great.

55:10

All right. Well, another big, thank you to Ryan. And thank you to you so much for being with us for this conversation on the fresh perspectives podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did and found it useful. And if, so it would mean a lot to me. If you'd be willing to take a moment to like the episode, subscribe to the channel. And share with a friend. If you think they might benefit from listening? Thanks for your curiosity. And wishing you courage and compassion.