Having Fun Getting Better In Life and At Work | Meagan Bond

So grateful to Meagan for joining us for this conversation!  Please check out her website to learn more or reach out: https://www.thebondconsultinggroup.com/.

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Transcript

Meagan: 0:06

When I think about what's possible, I think anything is possible. And my mission and my belief is that we can work together to create. A workplace culture in a human life in essence that is, is filled with these things of connectivity and trustworthiness and excitement and joy and fun. Welcome to the Fresh Perspectives Podcast. This is your host, Peter Callahan, providing you with human oriented content. For your listening pleasure Just kidding.

Peter: 0:46

Thank you. That's a, that's a wonderful start.

0:51

Hello, fellow humans. This is Peter Callahan, and I am grateful and excited to be bringing you the fresh perspectives podcast, where our intention is growing together and leading with love. I believe we each have incredible capacity to continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species. And bring way more love and a lot less fear. Into the world and our daily lives. Changing can be hard. And I found that even if nothing changes, having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective can change everything. And as you just heard, I'm excited to be sharing with you today. A conversation with my good friend and colleague Megan Bond. Megan is currently out in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And after attending Carlow university, she landed a job at Macy's and made her way up in the human resources. And talent and acquisition realms eventually to New York city as a Bloomingdale's senior leader of learning and development and transformation and strategy. And she has since moved on and worked for Edelman financial Highmark health and most recently as vice president. Of culture transformation and change management at bank New York Mellon. Megan now runs her own consultancy called the bond consulting group. And today. As you heard at the top, we get to talk about what Megan believes is possible when it comes to workplace culture. The benefits of acknowledging and working with uncertainty and resistance. The importance of fun, starting small. And ultimately how good it can feel to do this personal development work. And Megan shares why she believes that caring about people. Is simply a smart business decision. We also get into the process that Megan has developed, that I love. Through her own learning and experience called the human method. This is a really fun conversation, so glad you're with us. Keep it here.

Peter: 3:06

Welcome Megan. So great to have you.

Meagan: 3:08

Thank

Peter: 3:09

Yeah. How are you doing today?

Meagan: 3:11

I am doing well. I have my water and my good friend virtually in front of me, so I'm excited. I'm excited to chat with you a bit.

Peter: 3:21

Thank you, Megan. Me too. Me too. I was on your podcast a couple of years ago and it is still, it's part of the inspiration for me, honestly for, doing this podcast and for just being able to put these conversations into the world. Part of me wishes we had more of our conversations recorded, just so people could hear the abundance and the love that you show up with every day and the. Other piece that comes to mind is the courageous vulnerability. I just really respect and appreciate your openness and One of the topics that I know we both love to get into that I think could be really interesting for folks to hear your perspective on is in one word, workplace culture, which is obviously two words, but but culture in general, right? And business culture and just where we are in this capitalistic, patriarchal supremacist society, as I would label it. And. Maybe you could speak to when it comes to having, as we talk about a connected, trusting, and still productive work environment,

Meagan: 4:20

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 4:21

which is not the way most things are right now, most organizations, most people's work experience. I'm just curious what you believe is possible when it comes to that. Maybe just starting with, how possible is this I, because I think it feels like utopia for some people, so I'd just love to hear for you

Meagan: 4:37

yeah.

Peter: 4:38

how possible you think that is.

Meagan: 4:40

Starting with an easy question. Thank you, Peter.

Peter: 4:42

Yes.

Meagan: 4:44

So it's interesting cause you use words in in description of workplace culture, creating a connected culture, creating a trusting culture. And when I think about what's possible, I think anything is possible. And my mission and my belief is that we can work together to create. A workplace culture in a human life in essence that is, filled with these things of, of connectivity and trustworthiness and excitement and joy and fun. I know that that word has, has exited corporate quite a while ago. It has to start with a, a complete reframe of how we view corporate culture. So I think that all of these things are possible. I won't be Labor a point, so I'll, I'll focus on one piece of this, but. I think one of the challenges we face today is we are so focused on this idea of being woke and these words, connectivity, trusting, collaborate, work from home. We have all of these buzz words, uh, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think that what has happened is we're so focused on putting band-aids over things. Claiming that we have a data point to diversity, so therefore we figured it out. We have a data point to, so many people in an employee survey said that they trust their boss, so we're good there or we're not good there. Instead of really simply being present for the holistic human experience in the workplace and understanding that it's so much more than a word and. and it is intuition, it's eq, it's understanding yourself before you even show up for work, to better understand the people around you. So there's a lot of work we have to do to get to that place to improve workplace culture. I think that. Some of the best organizations that are doing this right now are merely dipping their toes in the water. We are so far away from, from getting to this real human first idea of how people come to work. So I said I wouldn't go on a rant. I kind of did. But to sum up in, in a beautiful sentence, if you will, humility is one of my things that I'm working on. I think that we are in a place now where we are awake to improving the workplace culture and we have a lot of work ahead of us, and the only way we're gonna get there is if we find and put leaders in place that really care about this work.

Peter: 7:17

Whew. That was a beautiful sentence. Thank you. I could not agree more. Really? Wow. All right, so there's already more things in there than we could possibly fit into a one hour session together today, so thank you. And we'll do our best One of the things I really heard in there was acknowledging this uncertainty and. Not having all the answers, despite maybe having a great survey that we've paid a lot of money for, and we have Gallop in doing our employee engagement surveys and thinking we have, I don't even wanna say an answer, but even enough of an answer to be totally confident

Meagan: 7:55

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 7:56

rather than. The word I would use is harmony. Some degree of balance or harmony around, okay, we have some information and how can we use that to inform us to keep taking steps forward. While as you were speaking to remaining open and curious and present to the human or humans in front of us and just acknowledging how complex doing this kind of work of bringing more humanity to work is. And maybe we can speak to too, my trust and belief that it is ultimately far more productive. There are more benefits to doing this work than there are downsides in the long term. I will acknowledge that might not be true in the short term as shifting and changing and transitioning can be hard and expensive, and yet one of my hopes is that the great resignation and the pandemic and everything that's happened is, to your point as well, has helped make this more of a requirement. Like if you're not. Jumping on this bandwagon, and to your point, it's not about toxic wokeness. I don't know if, if that's even a term, but you know, overstressing or overvaluing these things, but opening ourselves up to, okay, I want to move in this direction, the way you started it, anything is possible. and what are we willing, or what are we, committed to continuing to work on and improve? And, you spoke to eq, emotional intelligence, that's one of the ways to, measure some of these things. So I just wanna define that term for folks. But I already know things are coming up and I don't even need to ask a question to you. So what's What's next? So what was

Meagan: 9:30

Okay. First, can we start with this, term toxic wokeness? So this is your, this is a book. I, I love this. We need to, we're, we're revisiting that post podcast

Peter: 9:39

All right.

Meagan: 9:40

So, of things that I'm listening to you, you talk, I think it is important that we underscore the value of this work, first and foremost, you know, why is diversity in the workplace important? Why is a collaborative and trusting culture important? Why is emotional intelligence important? It's not. So that everyone can feel good. I mean, for me, selfishly, I want to feel good. So yes, that's, that's my goal. However, you know, I do this work with organizations because truly it's a reverberation effect that has the most meaningful impact on an organization's bottom line. It is caring about people is a business decision. And it's not simply, let's offer training for people to be able to do their job really well or you know, even give feedback so people can do their job and let's promote people cuz they're good at their job. That's all very almost esoteric in a way. It to me is about starting with oneself and you've gotta fix yourself first. Do the work, walk through the fire, of your own demons, which we all have. To get to a place where you can even understand what we're talking about in a truly meaningful way and understand its impact. And again, back to this idea of this reverberation effect. Really get and wrap your head around the fact that as you do this work on yourself, you are changing. Therefore, the people around you start to change. Therefore the people around them start to change and then everything changes. I think the biggest, one of the biggest challenges with this work is when you look at our most senior leaders, it. almost Darwinism to a degree. It's this, this survival method, which maybe we're not even consciously aware of, but to get to a certain level in leadership, you've got to survive. You've got to survive the politics. You've got to survive the culture. You've got to do some gnarly things in the dark to to get to certain places. And so the tools and the tactics that have gotten a lot of our leaders, a lot of our public figures and the places that they sit today, absolutely aren't the tools and tactics that are going to allow them to bring forward a rich, dynamic diverse. Collaborative culture, whether in society or in the workplace, or in your own home. And so I think that we've gotta stop and take a break or take a pause, take a beat, and do the work for ourselves first. And bring some of our darkness into the light so that we can then show up for other people in the appropriate way. And. It's the small, seemingly insignificant things that we focus on that have the biggest impact, that make up a life, that change a culture.

Peter: 12:36

Yes. Hell, he has to everything Megan.

Meagan: 12:39

Hell yes.

Peter: 12:40

Thank you so much. I just love the way you speak to these things and it's so inspiring just to hear, you say it and speak to it. And, I'm curious whoever winds up listening to this, you know, the degree of agreement and or resistance that may be coming up, I'm sort of tapping into that. Like, cause all of this is just of course, to me and Yes. And just to acknowledge our shared perspective and awareness. To use your word for earlier, humble and aware of the challenges that you're referencing here, of starting with ourselves and how either intimidating or at least uncertain, you know, is does this amount of. Effort and education is what I'm hearing you speak to. Like learning all these things that I don't know, and we'll never know everything. So where do we start? Where do we end? How much time do we spend? Reading books, taking courses, sitting in meditation, doing yoga posts versus getting shit done and trying to make more money or, have the external success that we've been consistently told is what will help us be as happy and content. As is possible, and I think I've spoken to this is part of what sent me on this path is I was grateful enough to find audiobooks right out of college and heard enough really successful people. Say, please stop trying to create this external success for yourself. Cuz I've achieved it. I have a couple billion dollars and it's not the most important piece of this life experience as far as these, most of the people who I've listened to, who I connect with and relate to and trust have said. So maybe we will be that for a couple folks who are listening. I don't know. But ultimately I am curious to hear you talk a little bit more. The resistance that you've experienced. Cause I know you've come up against a lot of different personalities and types and we're both in our thirties, we've been on this journey, we've had some business experience. Hopefully we've got a lot more to go. And I think it could be easy for folks to listen to us speaking to this utopian, you know, glass half full. Like, okay, great kids. Like maybe this will occur. And. I think we both share this relentless belief that it is possible and we don't necessarily know where we can get to, but it is so worth continuing to put in the effort and to keep trying and taking steps, and from my perspective, do a little bit every day to learn and grow while also taking care of the things that need to and finding this harmony between all the things that are important to ourselves. anyway, so my question was about resistance, if you're up for, for speaking to that and what you've seen and heard and how Yeah. How to meet that

Meagan: 15:25

so I think there's two parts to this question. There's resistance in terms of working with my clients that I consult, working with senior leaders and, and the challenges that come up there, so we can touch on that. But then there's also internal resistance and managing our own versions of self sabotage, which we all have. and something else you hit on that we'll start with, and then we'll move through the resistance piece. This idea of. success and then realizing you're not actually happy. It's, you know, so common. I think it starts at such a young age for many of us, but it's this waiting to start living construct where if I just get this, I'll be happy. If I just get this partner, I'll be happy if I just get this promotion, if I get this much more money, I get this car, I mean, fill in the blank. And I think that what happens then is we train our brain. To continue to look for the things that will make us happy. And we never get there because the, the moment that we get that thing, our brain is automatically now wired to want the next thing and the next thing. And that's where you have people that hit burnout. That's where you have people that. You know, get to a certain point in their career and then they have a heart attack and, and realize they have to focus on their health. I can't tell you how many clients that I've worked with, and they've only come to me once they've gotten to a place in their career, have had a health scare. because of the stress that they were putting themselves under on a routine basis for years and years and years, and then realized they had to reframe. And so moving into this question around resistance, and I think this is a, a nice segue if I do say so myself. Um, when you think of internal resistance, we can start there. Look, it's it's life. Life is hard. Life is going to throw us curve balls. Life is going to hit us with challenges. Life is going to put people in our paths that are there to bring us down, that are there to resist us or the work that we are trying to do. And. I think dealing with resistance in life is simply a part of life. It's should be habitual and can be if we start to incorporate resistance into our daily routine in productive ways. So what does that look like? That could be movement, that could be getting up at 5:00 AM and having a disciplined morning routine. It could be. Boxing, whatever I, I do spin class five days a week. But building in these moments where something is hard, where you have to push through, where you challenge yourself on purpose, will make it easier and will prepare you for those moments that are unexpected, that catch you off guard. and that force you to react and you talk often about, oh, well you'll, you're gonna have to edit this out, but what's that? Victor Frankl. Thank you. You talk often about Victor Frankl and it's that, that something happens and then you have that moment to respond and then, what is it, Peter? Just fill it in

Peter: 18:31

The space between stimulus and

Meagan: 18:33

Mm mm The space between stimulus and response. And I think that when we. Prepare ourselves for future moments of resistance. We are preparing ourselves for that space between and allowing ourselves to react in a more responsive rather than reactive way. And then I think that, the other piece, when you think of external resistance, so when I'm working with clients that are resisting this type of work, First of all, the people have to want this type of work. They have to believe in it. So I don't have time for people that don't get this, that don't even wanna try to get this. I'm happy to work with people and coach and kind of support and getting to that human space. But if somebody is not motivated to drive a human first organization, we're not meeting at the proper place. I'm not the one for you. But I think that when I encounter resistance, because it's simply a lack of awareness or a lack of understanding, or someone simply hasn't been exposed to this type of work, that's why we exist, Peter. That's why we're here to take those that that wanna learn about. That have a curiosity and to share what we know, not because we're so smart, but because we've done the work. We've done the work for years and years and years. We've read the books, we've conducted the interviews, we've seen it work over and over again in our different industries. So we are merely tools to. Share information. And for people that are interested and curious to take pieces of that information, that strike them, that inspire them, and then create their own way of, developing the human experience within themselves and amongst their teams. But it all comes back to you have to start with yourself first. You have to start figuring out what you are resist. How can you move past your moments of resistance? You have to work on, you know, ego, and leading a life more of humility because when we're focused on humility, we can be more focused on the people around us and we can connect with their hearts rather than a mental tug of war where we're simply showing up as a shell of a person to respond to whatever they're presenting to us. you know, it's a lot of work, but beyond the fact that this stuff, if you will, does impact the bottom line in a significant way. It also feels really good to do this work. And it's a different type of really good, it's a peace and a courage of one's conviction. And it's a, it's a space as you do this work where you become lucid and raw. And a lot of times it can feel painful. and then there are moments of, of sheer and pure bliss and joy, but when you move through the work of getting to know yourself, of identifying your values, of doing things the right way for you. You find yourself in this very, very, very connected space, connected to you, connected to the rest of the world, and you find that your responses start to change because you're more at peace with, the small things and you're more present for the small things. So when the big things happen, you, you maintain that peace and presence.

Peter: 21:53

More often.

Meagan: 21:55

Yeah. More often. Not always.

Peter: 21:58

Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely Megan. Wow. Thank you. Yes, yes. It feels really good to do this work

Meagan: 22:09

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 22:10

and it's uncomfortable and it hurts, but it's uncomfortable and it hurts to be alive, to your point from earlier. Right. It's uncomfortable. Anyway,

Meagan: 22:20

Mm.

Peter: 22:21

so to everything you were saying, It's just so interesting what helps us develop the courage or tap into the belief, get enough information to, as you said, inspire us to then keep taking steps, determine what habits, what practices can support me in increasing my capacity to sit with discomforts, to be courageous and like you said, getting to know myself to get to know myself to enough of a degree. To clarify who I am and what I want. Again, taking steps toward that, I have some of those answers is a lot unknown, but I think doing that work allows us to then have more space to create. That then allows us to create more space for others to do that work as well. So as you said, The Gandhi quote, right. Be the change you wish to see. Not just because it's a great aspiration, but because it creates more opportunity for others to be that change as well. And we can't know how or when or exactly what it's gonna look like. And yet, really, like you said, we're sort of creating the tools. I almost think the word conduit comes up for me. We are each conduits for each other to help create a little bit more connectivity, a little bit more trust, and like, oh, okay, this is possible. I see that you're doing it, parts of what you're doing. I like other parts maybe aren't my thing, but I see that it's possible and. I'm just so curious for each human, what sort of inputs it will take. And to your point on humility too, we can't know. Right. And, and I hear you on you don't really have time for. The folks who just aren't open at all just are not remotely interested. To me, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to put a lot of time and energy into that. I wanna always keep the door open and invite conversation, and I'm always here to listen and do my best to understand and like you, I wanna keep putting my energy in places where I feel like I'm able to create the most positive impact.

Meagan: 24:24

Yeah. It's maximizing the impact. And as we talked about in the beginning, there is a business reason decision for, this work. And from a business mindset, let's focus on those that are interested, that are curious, that that can easily be developed and, and we can support. And you know, I think the other piece to, to come back to something we talked about a, a little bit ago, this waiting to start living.

Peter: 24:50

Yes.

Meagan: 24:51

we wanna keep working toward things and we feel like there's only one way to get there because the people alongside us or above us have done it a certain way, or our mentors are telling us to do it a certain way, or the things that have worked for us, we believe will continue to work for us. And you know, I've seen more people become financially successful. by following this path, this human path, more so than those that follow that egocentric. I need that next thing, I need that next thing, I need that next thing type of mentality.

Peter: 25:27

Really already.

Meagan: 25:29

absolutely, absolutely.

Peter: 25:31

capitalism still. This is not the sort of common path yet, and it can be hard, I think, for leaders to draw this direct business case from, okay, I treat people really well. They treat. Their people really well. They treat the customers really well, and we make more money, have more consistent revenue, that sounds great, but prove it. How do you get that data and evidence without having the experience?

Meagan: 25:58

So I think that what I'm referring to is more of that 5% the, the 5% of people that aren't necessarily CEOs, they are. Industry tycoons, if you will. And, if you look at that 5% of the most successful people in the world, they, most of them, that percentage, they are self-made. and they have done the work to get there, and have built in their resistance and have done it their own way too, which I think is another powerful thing, is creating your space so that you can work in an environment that's best for you. We, you know, we talk about workplace culture, and I think the really interesting thing is going back to the use of a word and putting a bandaid on the A word. It's easy. plug a process in and say, okay, we've established employee resource groups, or we have a culture of wearing denim on Fridays, or it's a hybrid work model, so therefore that's our culture. And culture can be defined as simply the way we do things around here. So it could be a very regimented, structured culture, or we could understand that each person is different. No two people are alike and there's never going to be anyone like you ever created in the history of man ever. And so, to assume culture, I think is one of our biggest areas of opportunity, in corporate rather, you know, culture for Joe. Who works from home might be the ability to take his kids to school in the morning, something he never was able to do before. You know, his company went remote. It might be walking his dog during his lunch break, and that's what Joe needs to then come back after lunch and be motivated and energized and reinvigorated for somebody. For you, Peter, it might be going into the office and having conversations with colleagues and telling a few jokes. For someone else, it might be to be left completely alone and have the space to work when and how they want and listen to music in their own space. So it's different for everybody and I think it's sad that we haven't yet realized that if we create a broader idea or notion of culture, we don't have to do all this work as, as corporations. We don't have to come up with all these ideas and events and things and stuff that will engage employees like a DJ in a lobby, which I know one company that did that. I have no idea what that was supposed to do for people's souls. But allowing people to trusting your employees to that they are smart enough to know what they enjoy and what feels good for them. And maybe if you give them the. and the autonomy, they'll fill that with things that make them happy, which will ultimately re-energize them, which will ultimately allow you to get a larger percentage out of your employees working at their maximum potential. I mean, it's not rocket science, but we just seem to struggle with this so much.

Peter: 28:53

Yes we do. Yes, we do. Space and autonomy,

Meagan: 28:57

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 28:59

absolutely.

Meagan: 29:00

you what they want.

Peter: 29:02

Yes, if we have the sincere openness to ask and check in from a place, this is something I work with a lot of leaders on in my coaching, is asking these two fundamental leadership questions. How are you doing? And what do you need or cause? What and how are really helpful to flip them? What are you working on and how can I. So simple, and yet the tone is everything. The precedent is everything. Have you done this before? Is this the first time you're asked this? Well, I was working with my weird coach. He asked me to ask these questions. So I'm doing it and it's perfunctory or it's sincere and I've never done it before, and this person does not trust at all that I'm not asking for this information to hold against them. And the other perspective that comes to mind is, Megan and I've given my my team space and autonomy and they keep making mistakes and they show up late for work and they don't fall through in their commitments, and I'm trying to give them empathy and show that I care and they're walking all over me. What do I do now?

Meagan: 30:03

Well, let me ask you a different question. I love that we're going into a role play. Um, let me ask you a different question, Peter. Do you think that by micromanaging them or kind of going back to the way you were doing things before that, that's going to bring out a better version of them?

Peter: 30:21

No, they're all quitting. That wasn't working either, so I've been trying this woke stuff. You keep talking about it. It doesn't seem to be working either. Like what's that?

Meagan: 30:29

So keep going. And, and that's where, you know, the encouragement is, and this is what, what I love about this is, There isn't one right answer. There isn't one right approach there. You know, I do a lot of work in change management. It isn't, let's use cutter's eight steps to change and we're gonna be good. I mean, often that fails. And so you've gotta just keep going until something works. And the only way that you can do that is to be curious and to ask questions. And the only way you can truly do. Is to do the work on yourself first, because if you are not being, and I know I keep going back to this, but if you're not being honest with yourself, then you are and you're not asking authentic questions of yourself and answering those truthfully, you certainly will not be able to do that with other people. If you are not listening to yourself and what feels good and what doesn't feel good, and you're just on this perpetual hamster wheel, you will not be able to truly listen to your team. So you've gotta do the work on yourself. That so that you can show up, especially as a leader, it, it's almost a prerequisite so that you can show up in the proper way for your team. Actually listen to what they're telling you. Actually read their non-verbal cues. Intuit a top performer when they are starting to feel disengaged before they tell you they're leaving the company. These are the things that are going to shift the trajectory of, of your organization and in culture in the right way. But if you ignore these things, if you merely focus on data points and dollar signs and smudge in. Some human stuff with an HR representative or whomever, you will fundamentally shift the direction your company is headed in. You will fundamentally turn and there will be a, a juncture point where you won't be able to. Get back on track and maybe that feels like a really long time away. But these, companies with these types of leaders where they just show up and they focus on the data and the dollar, they will not last. They are not long-term companies. I can guarantee you that.

Peter: 32:43

Totally agreed. The data and the dollar. Yes. And you're speaking to Probably what's come I keep coming back to is the most helpful commitment that we can make and it is the first agreement and the four agreements on some level, I think. Be impeccable with your word. Starting with ourselves, like I often am really creating space and trying to help the clients that I'm working with be honest with ourselves, and you spoke to this beautifully, how much courage that takes and how hard it can be. So maybe one of the approaches that I find really helpful, that we haven't really spoken to here yet is self-compassion. And I know that just feels immediately cheesy and hokey and lovey dovey. Right? And like, love yourself more. Like, oh, okay, great. I'll, I'll give that a shot. Never. Right? Like, and I,

Meagan: 33:35

I'll go to the spa. Yeah.

Peter: 33:37

right? It feels the same as those kind of things. And yet to me it's, you're speaking to it really well without using those exact words because those words are gonna turn a lot of people.

Meagan: 33:47

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 33:48

And I just find it so helpful. I've found it really helpful for myself, as someone who had a lot of defensiveness and I was trying to protect myself and my insecurities really unconsciously. By being really arrogant you spoke to being in the office and making jokes earlier. It's probably good that I'm not right now, sparing people from some of those dad jokes that I'd be bringing out. But I'm able to do that more because I'm taking myself less seriously and because I've really valued having these honest conversations with myself, often with a third party who can help me reflect back and this approach that we're all doing our best and starting with ourselves. This acknowledgement that I come by every weird or harmful, dark place in myself, really, honestly, you know, maybe some is from ancestors or history. I don't know. Maybe some is from my parents. Seems likely, maybe some is from society and other things. Nature and nurture doesn't feel as important to me as acknowledging. I am doing my best and everyone around me is doing their best to get their needs met, to have a happy, successful life, to take care of the people that they care about. None of us are remotely different in those fundamental. Needs and desires, and yet we're all going about it very differently and we all have a lot of conditioning of training, of trauma living in our bodies that we're not able to see and that we're not supported in having the courage to sit with and be uncomfortable and begin to do some healing and open to new habits and practices as you're speaking to really well. It's really hard and it's uncertain and we're, there's still, there's a lot of more messaging now it seems than there ever has been. And yet it can be a really challenging path to start on and to begin taking steps. And I just really want to continue to invite folks to tread lightly, to start anywhere, to begin slowly and yet, To start and to find a person or a book or the question that helps you begin to open kind of that low hanging fruit. Like, all right, I don't need to dive in the middle here. I don't need to be a de I diversity equity inclusion expert. I just am not feeling comfortable, or I believe so much more is possible for myself and my. I don't need to wait to start living, I can begin living now, being honest with myself because I want to, because I want to experience more than I am right now or whatever. Really uncovering those reasons, what is it for me that I want to be moving toward and I don't have to know. I don't have to be certain that this will give me the results that I want, but I do think we need to believe to some degree that there is. Another way, there is potentially a better life experience to have.

Meagan: 36:50

Yeah. And I think that that work could start with, you're talking about starting small and I agree completely. It could start with something as simple as back and taking observation and. assessing what are the things that I'm doing right now that I really enjoy that really are helpful to me. So maybe there are things that you wanna work on in your life and you wanna do this work and you don't really know what this work is per se, but you go to the gym three days a week and you know that that feels good. And that's something that you say, okay, I'm gonna keep doing that. Just a simple awareness of here's a habit that I already have, that I've already been engaging. It's really productive. Okay, cool. Good for me, that's one thing I'm doing right. And then start to look at the other things. Every time I come home from work, I give my partner a kiss or my family and I try to have dinner three days a week. Okay? Those are things I wanna keep engaging in. And when you start to look at those things, you will start to, by default, look at the things that are deflating. Are there certain people that after you have spent time with them, you feel drained? Are you drinking too much on a Saturday? Are you working late to get things done? But then the next day after you've worked late, the night before, you're not as productive in the morning and you start to notice that there's a pattern. So simply taking notice of the things in your life that. for lack of a better term, serving you versus not serving you. And I think it, this work starts with awareness, just awareness, paying attention, and on a really micro scale as a, an executive within an organization, it could be as simple as attempting to minimize your meetings so that you have more time to do work and. Setting aside an hour or two on a Monday morning to look at your calendar for the months or for the week even, and committing to taking three to four meetings out of that calendar. Whether you're delegating them, you're simply canceling them cuz you can solve it via email or you're removing yourself because they're not really pertinent to the work you are doing. But small steps, to Peter's point, just looking at how your life is organiz. and starting to curate it just a little bit and tweak here and there to allow things, the pieces of the puzzle to fit together a little bit better. And then from there, there's a flow that will come with it. And you don't need Peter or I to tell you how to do it. Everyone will go through this work on their own. Peter's an amazing coach though, so if you want a guide in this, in this journey, you should call him. But

Peter: 39:31

Thanks. I'll edit that out.

Meagan: 39:33

I just wanted to, Peter, Peter paid me to say that,,

Peter: 39:36

I just Venmo to you. Thank you. You followed through. I appreciate it.

Meagan: 39:39

me and texted me. Please say this. I think it comes back to, you will feel what the next right move is for you. Again, going back to there is no process to this.

Peter: 39:50

Right. Right. And I think that lack of structure is part of the intimidation. Like what would I do? Anything? Okay, great. So I really appreciate your, I've heard the term appreciative inquiry, Noticing, just slowing down enough to bring some awareness to the results that you're getting, to how you're feeling, what's pleasant, what's unpleasant, how's what I'm doing, working for me, and. Maybe to bring in this consulting tool. Maybe you can apply a simple start. Stop, continue. What do I wanna start doing? What do I wanna stop doing? What's one thing and what's one thing to your point that I really want to continue doing that is working for me? That, that I wanna make sure I continue to prioritize. And I think you spoke to this tool of our calendar being such an essential thing. Cause I can hear some people saying, yeah, it's great. I'd love to not go to these meetings and I'm not the boss and I don't get to decide. I'm told to show up to these meetings, so I've gotta go. So coming back to the calendar. How can you then put other blocks on your calendar ahead of time to take care of yourself, to take that walk with the dog, to whatever, take a break, have enough time to eat lunch, and hold those as blocks. And a lot of the work that I'll wind up doing with people is, how do I have that conversation? Like I, I've never done that before. And if someone just says, sees busy on my calendar and there's no reason for it, they, they're just gonna book over it anyway. Right. And starting to bring in this other tool of Yes. And. Which is my favorite communication tool of being able to speed of noticing, noticing others, acknowledge what someone else is saying, especially your boss. I hear you. I want to be the best possible team member that I can. I am deeply committed to this team, and it's really important for me to continue to maintain my energy so that I can get all the work done each day. And so maybe there's some flexibility in when I do this, but I do need to take a break at some point. This is what it looks like for me. How willing are you to support me in doing this so that I can keep supporting you in doing the best possible work I can.

Meagan: 41:46

Yep. Having the courage of your conviction and speaking up for yourself when you need to is, is crucial, and it takes time to get there. And you do reach a point where you're able to do that. Because when you do the work on ego, I think that's when you're able to do that in a more productive way because you're not pushing back and challenging the person, you versus them. It becomes this is what needs to happen for us to get this shared goal, this. Done, accomplished in a way that is the best, most productive way for both of us. It's about the shared goal, it's about an outcome. It's not about you. It's not about me. And when you can speak to that truth, when you don't have an ego, I think it's so much easier to be honest about what you need to be at your best, because you really just wanna be at your best for the people around.

Peter: 42:44

absolutely. It's, I could not agree more. That is the, the most helpful lens in my opinion, to be able to say It's selfish altruism maybe it's holding this paradox of I want what's best for me because I believe it's what's best for you and I want what's best for you. Cause I believe it's what's best for me. And this self-perpetuating cycle, which can easily, I think as you've been speaking to, can go on the other direction of like, all right, well let me just do everything for you and everything for you. And it's completely burning me out and it's not sustainable. And that in itself, and I've talked to a lot of healthcare professionals about this. Is ultimately more harmful for you? Like if I really care about these patients and I want to take care of them all, having a 12 hour shift on my feet without eating a meal or taking a break at any point. The data speaks to, and I'm sure it's true for our own experience, like I am not providing the best care for the people, especially in my 11th hour that I was in that first hour. I'm not even sure a 12 hour work shift makes any sense for human beings to begin with. It's necessary, certainly in crisis moments, but. To me, this is part of the system and looking at how are we supporting actually getting the best results much more holistically when it comes to all these different human needs. And at the top, you spoke to fun, having fun and enjoying ourselves. A big part of that is getting to know each other and feeling like we do have a shared purpose, that we're really clear on why we're here in this organization. An organization is just human beings deciding to coordinate their actions so that we can accomplish more together than we could individually, which is how we've evolved, right? It's what our nervous systems are set up for. So it can be really rewarding unless we're ignoring a large chunk of our actual needs to be able to maximize and to show up fully and care for each other and those people. So, so thank you for everything that you're saying and I'm recognizing we are not gonna have time now, which, Absolutely fine. This has been so incredible we're not gonna have time to actually walk through every step of the human method, but you've been speaking to sort of. Doing our best to share these ideas and concepts. Invite people to take a step on their own path and then eventually, or continue to create our own paths, their own path to, you know, whatever this looks like for them. And I really would love to get to take a few minutes as you've been promoting me here, but I would love to hear. A little bit more about this human method that you have created and maybe to start just how you've come up with this method, I'm hearing another paradox you spoke to. Well, there is no process, there is no exact structure to how to do this. And yet there can be guideposts, there can be practices and offers. So tell us more. What is the human method?

Meagan: 45:31

So I, I'll preface with this. I have built my career over the past decade in the HR realm of corporate, and I've worked in a myriad of industries and I've had the, the honor of seeing. Different themes throughout all of these industries within hr. And you know, when I think of hr, there are so many components from compensation and benefits. So simply getting people paid to learning and development and, and talent acquisition and recruitment and, everything in between. Common themes though have been that there is such a focus on bringing in the right people. Putting people in positions to then do these jobs that they're right for. And then hopefully promoting individuals and retaining people within a company, keeping them paid, keeping them happy, to a point where they're not going to leave the company. And then of course, the other piece, performance. Managing out those individuals that don't seem to be the right fit. Pretty cut and dry in terms of the expectations of hr, although I've seen time and time again where we do this work in even really good companies with really strong learning and development or manager curriculums for upcoming managers or leaders. There is a fall short when it goes anywhere beyond the work that's actually being done. So we're not sitting down and working with people on tools too, for example, manage their own narrative or demonstrate active listening or building relationships with. People so that when they come to work, they have a really strong inner circle that supports and uplifts them so that they're working closer to their maximum potential. So we're basically getting shells of people because we are training people through a vacuum. And having them work in a specific way with some, you know, grace of autonomy in terms of maybe how they get work done or us not telling them exactly how. what their work style should look like or their leadership style should look like, but we're not building into people. And that's where I took a step back from the work I was doing and, I mean this is a different topic for a different day, was kind of forced to take a step back and was forced to sit with myself and do this work. And it took a long time. but I realized that I had all of the tools in front of me. I had all of the lessons and the learning in front of me, and I pieced together something for myself, a, a mode for personal transformation so that I could do this work and it made sense for me. And as I put it together, I realized, Well, holy shit. This is a, this is a change management methodology. This is something that will help someone transform personally. It will be, it's a methodology that could be used in a corporation for moving through a change management process. Although this isn't a process. It's an approach. It's an approach for helping people be better at life, at work, in interactions. So to sum it all up, the approach is focused on. A handful of phases and the phases will build off of each other. So I do encourage folks to move through these phases. One phase at a time. But then you can go back and revisit the phases at your leisure in any type of order you want. And for example, one of the phases is prioritizing your health. And you may. Have an issue with other things, but you're really struggling with health and wellness. I would encourage a corporation to provide these tools to an individual. Or you can go out on your own and, and review these tools and it's a chapter that talks about, how to prioritize your health and the mind work that goes into that. But then there's also activities and exercises within that chapter that you can move through and it's something that you can revisit over and over. But go ahead. I know you wanted to say so.

Peter: 49:32

No, I'm just so glad that you're speaking to chapters, cuz I don't think you referenced both. You've created this process that can be used in organizations, but there is also a book coming

Meagan: 49:42

Yes, I'm And I'm sorry for confusing you. So, yeah, so there's a book that talks through each. And then this is also the work I do when I go into organizations. I'll just quickly share. So there's a discovery phase, which is practicing that objective awareness, understanding what's actually happening around you. and some may call that a gap analysis. So it's that analysis piece, and then it's moving into the resistance phase. So it's preparing yourself or your organization for change. and there are tools within that. and then we move into surrender, which is really important for corporations. It's surrendering the things that don't need to be priorities so that we can really focus monomaniacally on the things that really need to be a priority, so that we can grow exponentially. Then we move into changing our narrative, restoring inner dialogue so that folks in organizations or folks individually and or both, Work on their narrative with proven tools from different psychiatrists and sociologists throughout the world, to manage your inner dialogue, reframe and change your inner dialogue so that. you know, you have something really traumatic going on in your personal life. You're still able to go to work on a Monday morning and move through the work. Maybe not at a hundred percent of your potential, but it's 75 because that's the best that you can do. But it's better than the 20% you would've brought to the table had you not done the work to manage your narrative. Establishing a winning routine. So setting clear expectations, setting standards for success. There's the health and wellness piece. And then the last two phases are around growing relationships, building the circle of the right mentors and coaches and friendships around you, and creating a space that. you feel productive and not distracted in. And then we wrap it all up with that final piece of transformation. And once you've moved through this process, you can again go back and tap into it at any point in time. But I will say it has worked for me, and I continue to use it and I am a testimonial for this work. And that it can be tailored to anyone that wants to use it in a way that makes sense for.

Peter: 51:59

Incredible. Wow. Thank you so much for that very succinct summary, which deserves a lot more time and space. And I'll make a commitment right now that as the book is coming out, we, uh, we can just have a whole conversation just about the, and I keep, I know we bounce back and forth between process versus methodology versus, I mean, it's the human method is what you call it, right? And to your point too, the word guide keeps coming to my mind. What, what was the other word you used? We can edit this out too, is fine. But the approach, yeah, just like, I just love that it's something you can come back and tap into and reference and just to speak to. There's so many approaches out there, there's lots of different ways to do it, and what's exciting to me is someone getting to listen to, to you speak and hearing your perspective and the way you see the world and your approach and feeling like, oh, I think, I think there's a lot of relatability for me in here, and I think it, it's part of this process that we've been talking about, this whole conversation of how do you. Pay attention to what's happening in yourself. Bring enough awareness to recognize there may be some things that I want more of or to do more of. And you know, I believe that it's possible for me to grow and to change my experience even slightly. Even slightly, because it's uncomfortable. Anyway, we're struggling anyway, so this bringing some more awareness and struggling intentionally. You said it at the top, can bring a lot of benefits and. Maybe it's a little harder in some ways. At the end of each day, once we've taken a step or done something that feels like the right next step, it certainly helps me sleep better and I feel like, oh, okay. Well, I wasn't perfect by any stretch today, but I did sit down and meditate for a little bit. I did send a text or make a phone call to a friend proactively that I don't, I'm not always great at reaching out to you. And each one of those moments can be such a rewarding little micro success that then give us the energy and the inspiration, especially if we're paying attention to how that feels to do this something else tomorrow or take another step in it. Really helping it build on itself. So I really appreci. Just that you've gone through this process so thoroughly yourself and that you've taken the time and put in the energy. And had the compassion to now offer it up to others and create an opportunity for folks to join you and, and me and others along this journey. And again, I'm just so excited for, for the book to come out and for anyone to listen to this and say, I want to, I wanna learn more, please reach out to Megan. Of course, we'll share details in the, in the show notes here. But yeah, thank you so much, Megan.

Meagan: 54:43

Oh, Peter, thank you. This was wonderful, and I am, I'm so excited for this podcast. I, I, I know we've talked about some of the guests you'll be bringing on in the future, and. Some really, really cool people and I can't wait to listen to every episode. Thank you for having me. It's, it's been an honor and as always, just a wonderful conversation with you,

Peter: 55:03

Agreed.

Meagan: 55:04

with a good friend.

Peter: 55:05

Yes, thank you so much.

Meagan: 55:08

You're welcome.

Peter: 55:10

Nice. Anything that we didn't touch on that you wanted to, I could, you know, that's the Dan Harris question. I could have asked

Meagan: 55:15

Oh, are we still recording?

Peter: 55:17

yeah. We'll stop. All right.

55:24

All right. Well, thank you so much again to Megan bonds. And thank you so much for being with us for this conversation on the fresh perspectives podcast. I hope you enjoyed it and found it useful. And if so, It would mean a lot to me, if you'd be willing to. Take a moment to subscribe to the channel and share with the friends. If you think they might benefit from listening. Thanks so much for your curiosity. Wishing you compassion and courage.