Changing Your Relationship with Stress | Stephanie Simpson

So grateful to Stephanie for joining us for this conversation!  Please check out her website to learn more or reach out: http://www.stephanie-simpson.com/.

Thank you for being here. Please subscribe and share if you feel called, and reach out anytime at https://www.fp-ct.org/

Transcript

Stephanie: 0:07

And then there's so many things in there where it's like, how can I label the stress I'm feeling? Is it good stress or bad stress? Which good stress is the tress bad? Stress is distress. And so how can I even categorize those because good. The good stress, we actually need that in order to continue to engage in our lives

Peter: 0:28

Hello, fellow humans and welcome to the fresh perspectives podcast, where our intention is growing together and leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan and I believe we each have incredible capacity. To continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species. And bring away more love and a lot less fear. Into the world and our daily. Daily lives. Change. Changing can be hard. And I found that even. If nothing changes. Having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh. Uh, perspective. Can change. Everything. I'm glad you're here. Today as you just heard a little bit we are connecting with my friend and colleague stephanie simpson Stephanie is an artist coach consultant facilitator, speaker and author of the 21 day stress management workbook And stephanie draws on her background in the arts mindfulness trauma and psychology As she partners with people and different businesses and organizations to achieve their greatest potential By nurturing the connection between the mind body and spirit

1:46

As a certified yoga instructor and icf that's the international coach federation certified professional coach or a pcc similar to me Stephanie also holds a degree from emerson college a master's degree in dance performance and choreography from smith college And a master's in clinical psychology from columbia Her research focuses on fear stress management embodied leadership As well as engagement in purpose creativity and innovation so many different areas she's also on faculty at john jay college of criminal justice cuny And is one of the co-founders and artistic directors of the reject dance theater Which we didn't get to talk to today but i'm curious to hear more about the reject dance there That sounds fun In the conversation we did however as you just heard talk a lot about stress and stephanie's own journey With stress Studying and learning especially that it's not all bad as you just heard there are these two types that will talk about The difference between you stress And distress We both share some personal challenges with self care and social situations how we might define success individually How to reframe and avoid burnout and it was a big topic these days As well as the value of experimentation and how challenging it can be to create a plan and Because i have to say turn our knowledge into wisdom so i'm really excited to share with you this conversation with stephanie today thanks so much for being here

Peter: 3:25

All right, well welcome Stephanie. So glad to have you today.

Stephanie: 3:30

I'm very excited to be here and have this convers. Yeah.

Peter: 3:34

Thank you. So glad to have you. I know one of your sort of favorite topics is our relationship with ourselves and with our. Really specifically, so maybe I'll just let you get started on this, this topic of stress and how we, you know, maybe don't always view it in a way that's most useful or even accurate, especially kind of culturally societally. So yeah, do you mind just starting

Stephanie: 3:57

there? Yeah. So I think the best thing to start with is why I even. Got curious about stress. That's great. And so I would say it was, sometimes I forget what year we're in. Time feels very different. Since Covid. I would say probably back in like 20 16, 20 17, I was teaching full-time at a private school here in New York City where I'm based. And something that I just kept, like hearing all the time from students, from colleagues, from administrators was just this word stressed all the time, right? Like, everyone's like, oh, I'm so stressed out. I'm so stressed out, I'm so stressed out. And then I would always hear the next thing. It's like, I just gotta make it through this, and then I'll feel better. Right? And I don't know whether it's just partially who I am and how the environment I was raised in and stuff was always like, okay, great, then things will be better once you get to that place. But then I would notice that that person would get to that place and then there was something else. Right. And the private school I was in very fast paid. Very achievement oriented, all of that. So there's just always something, And I felt in my body just very on alert all the time, and, and I didn't really have the language for that until later. So I just kept getting curious around the fact, why do we all keep saying we're stressed out and why aren't we doing anything about. I got to a point in my life many years ago where I was like, I understand like venting and I understand complaining, but At some point you've gotta do something to fix it, right? Like there's only so much you can complain and vent about, like you gotta do some, take some action. And so I got really curious about this and around that time I was thinking about going back to grad school. I had previously gotten an MFA and dance performance and choreography where I was really interested in my thesis. In the mind body connection as it related to peak performance, like specifically at the time for dancers. And I was connected with the sports world a lot at the time, basketball specifically, and was talking to a lot of high level basketball coaches and hearing what they do for, They're athletes, both an individual level and a group level. So studying that, many years ago I created these like mental training programs for performing artists that then I was starting to do with people outside the performing arts world. And that relationship I was looking at was really like fear, how fear and the, the stories and the thoughts we were telling ourselves, how that was changing the way that we were feeling internally, but also the actions and behaviors that we had, and how could we get our mind and our body to work. Then when this whole curiosity around stress and I guess it's this really bad thing, how do we get rid of it started coming up and like I said, I was thinking about going back to grad school or doing something and ended up going back to grad school here in New York at Columbia for a psychology degree. It was a master's of clinical psychology with an emphasis in spirituality, mind, body, and while I was there, ended up doing a lot of work also in the organizational psychology depart. And really coming in with this lens of stress. And what I learned through the, the two years of research I did and the work I was doing was that a lot of what we call stress isn't actually stress. We just use that word a lot of times. And that the. Idea is not to in, in a healthy relationship with stress, it is not to get rid of it, that we actually need a certain amount of it. And so much of what I was learning in that research for my thesis was so similar to the one that I was doing back in my M F A, which makes a lot of sense because the thing that sets off our stress cycle is fear. So it was just kind of like progressed itself. Um, and so a lot of times when people say they're stressed, They're actually afraid of something and that fear can be, can look in different ways, right? So fear, we also need, I, I went into that first Master's being like, oh, we just have to get rid of fear. Like, once fear is away, we can perform to our highest potential, right? But that's not true either. We need a certain level of fear, in order to stay at what I would call our sweet spot, which is our peak place. Um, But if we're, and it all goes back to stories again, is like if what we're afraid of becomes overwhelming, then yes, we're not gonna do well. So being able to understand what we're afraid of and then anxiety can also be something that we're feeling, but we're labeling as stress and anxiety are just these irrational fears. And then what happens is either the fear or the anxiety, what typically happens is we start ruminating on that thought. So we begin to worry. And worry is just repeating those same thoughts over and over again. And so the visual I always use is we go down the downward spiral, right? We just start like moving down the downward spiral, which then causes. Stress, which is the idea that we don't have the resources and the capability to do the thing that we're being asked to do. And so that can play out in many different ways and I can give an example if we're interested in that. But, um, then stress, prolonged stress. Can lead to burnout, but it doesn't have to. And so that's when I started realizing, oh, where are these moments that we can create roadblocks internally and externally, um, where we don't then get to either that very much stressful, overwhelmed place or burnout, right. And then there's so many things in there where it's like, how can I label the stress I'm feeling? Is it good stress or bad stress? Which good stress is the tress bad? Stress is distress. And so it's like, how can I even categorize those because good. The good stress, we actually need that in order to continue to engage in our lives. Like literally just engage in our lives and then also get to that place of peak performance.

Peter: 9:41

Thank you. Yes, yes. So much in there, Stephanie. I really appreciate it. I had this response of like, yes, I do spiral downward when I'm worried about something. Like I was very much resonating with the way you're saying that and, and I love this term, you stress. I think this is such a valuable. It has been, for me anyway, to recognize like there are benefits to this experience as well. It is not all bad and probably why I love the term fresh perspectives. How do we look at this or understand ourselves, the world, these concepts a little bit differently so that we can relate to them maybe a little bit differently and use them to our advantage. Yeah, maybe before I go to another question, I mean, there's so many things to follow back up on, but maybe an example would be helpful. You had said there, you know, there are some examples of this that might be relatable for fun.

Stephanie: 10:33

Yeah, so I'll give a personal example. There's so many, so I try to figure out which one do I wanna go with. Um, I think the thing to, to like completely name that, even though stress management and our relationship with stress is like a big part of my business of. Teaching classes isn't college level and coaching people on it. I too am practicing this every day, all day, and I'm definitely not like an expert in it in my own life, which is funny. I always say, we teach the thing we need to know. We need to learn the most. And I was like, yep, this makes sense. If we're lucky. Absolutely. Exactly, exactly. So I guess the example I will say, well, let's just put it this way. Um, I just came back from being away for a week and it wasn't like a full vacation. I took some days that I wasn't taking any calls, or I definitely did kind of like shut down, but there was some working involved in as well. So that transition for me always from like, The being away and coming back can be overwhelming to me, so, mm-hmm. Even that right there, I worked really hard to n over time to not use the word stress. Because even the thing I'm naming has a lot of power. So I've now realized, okay, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm not feeling stressed necessarily, but years ago I might have been like, oh, I'm stressed out. Right. I'm feeling overwhelmed when I get back cuz of the transition. And what happens in my head is I start going, oh my God, I have to do this. Oh my God, I have to do this. I'm gonna be so tired. I start creating stories before it even happens. Like I've already decided I'm gonna be tired when I get off the plane. Well, I don't know. I haven't done it yet. Right. But I've already decided that in my head. And then I'm like, and then I gotta do this, and then I gotta do this, and then I gotta do this. And so all of a sudden the list just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Mm-hmm. And so if I can notice. Which I will say first is our body notices it, but many of us are not fully connected and in tune with our body, myself included, many times. Is that like my body feels it first, and if I can just take a moment to pause, listen to my body, and then get curious, and be like, okay, what is. Because my brain is gonna take over, right? It, it already did. Creating that lift, right? Like that's my go-to. It's like, then there's this, then there's this, then there's this and there's this. And it's like, yeah, okay. That is overwhelming. That is threat right there. Which the stress cycle is, it starts with a perceived threat, So it's what you just said new perspectives, So I always say to people, our perceived threat is the stressor. Perceived is the key word there. We get to change a different perspective, a different thought, or a different lens, and if we can shift that lens and that perspective, we shift the thing that we're afraid of, right? So for me, the thing that I'm afraid of is like, oh, if I don't do everything right away, then the, the narrative in my head is like, then I'm not being successful, I'm not, I'm not performing to where I should be. I'm not being successful. What my brain starts doing is like trying to like deal with it, but all it's doing is worry, creating more worry and stuff. Whereas if I stopped and took a breath, which one of my brain creates more worried, guess what? I happens. I get tired and then I completely shut down, which is understandable because the stressor. Then activates the stress cycle, which is fight, flight, breathe. And now, um, the fourth one is fawn, so I will either like run away from something and avoid it, or I'll freeze, which could look like taking a nap or something like that. In this one I don't usually fight back for my go-to is like runaway or freeze. And then the outcome, the what we call the. Is usually not the thing I want, right? It's usually I'm now even more behind or more exhausted or any of that sort of stuff. So if I can stop and pause and go, okay, what's happening right now, maybe practice some of my mindfulness techniques, breath techniques, and then. What that's actually doing in your brain is it's helping it get out of the stress cycle, come back to the present moment and, and relax the nervous system. Right? When we're in fight, flight or freezes, we're in the sympathetic nervous system, so all the energy's going out, and so being able to, you know, maybe it is being like, I need to go for a walk for 20 minutes, right? I'm gonna give myself that time to go for a walk, even though that may sound like I'm avoid. Nope. I'm telling myself 20 minute walk, so I can get back and then be like, what can I do from here? Or I sit in silence for 10 minutes, or I breathe intentionally for five minutes and then be like, what can I do from here? And then it's about knowing yourself. So for me, I know that it's like, what's the easiest thing I can do so that I feel like, yes, I did something for others, it may be like, okay, I'm gonna tackle that big thing first because then it's out of the way. And that's. The self-awareness comes in. So, you can't really change your relationship with stress if you don't stop and pause and become more aware of yourself.

Peter: 15:26

Absolutely. Thank you. If that's not one theme that I will relentlessly keep coming back to in these conversations, it's just stopping and pausing. Right. I'm even hearing mm-hmm. Some self-compassion in here for yourself. Like, oh, it's understandable. This is what's happening to. And that's always true for all of us, right? When our mind is doing these things to us, like you're saying, and creating this degree of overwhelm, that's that's understandable and it's even okay that it's happening. We don't even have to make that wrong or bad to first just acknowledge, accept it, and I really appreciate the way you're speaking to it. It can seem counterintuitive to not only to stop and pause, but then to do something different other than. Shipping away immediately. That list.

Stephanie: 16:15

Yes. And I was thinking, as you were saying, and then I was smiling because I was visualizing what happens. I mean, so we're animals, right? This all comes from being an animal and having to survive, you know, in threat threatening situations. However, as we've evolved, what has been, what was threatening many, many, many years ago to us is not the same threat now. But our body doesn't know the. The hormones still release and we go into this tunnel vision and it's like, well, this is what I have to do. And our body, it's not instinctual to go, wait a second, let's take a little pause first. Let's get some clarity, and then let's be more intentional and mindful and o and conscious about what we're doing as opposed to just going into unconscious behavior. Which if we stop and go, oh wait a. The last time I just kind of pushed through this didn't work out so well, so why am I doing that again? Well, because we're like, we're habitual beings and until we stop and get aware and consciously choose a different thing every single time to create a new pathway in the brain, which is what neuroplasticity is. Nothing will ever change. But when we can stop and go, wait, let's take a pause. Let's take what would be the best thing to try right now? we also can remind ourselves oh wait, I made it through last time. I survived last time. I didn't get fired from any job. I didn't people didn't, friends didn't hate me. You know, things like that. I was fine. Oh, so I am. Oh, okay. What can I do now that I feel safe? So that's where like the self-compassion and really it, it all comes down to safety. So one of the first things I say to myself, or I'll offer to clients at times is like, when you notice you're feeling it in your body and we talk about what are some of those signs, right? Or you notice that your brain is doing that downward spiral. How can you pause? How can you take a deep breath and how can you remind yourself that you're safe? Most of the times we are,

Peter: 18:17

most of the time we're lucky. Exactly. Yes, I am safe. And it's bringing up really strongly in me, Stephanie, how challenging this is to do for any of us, no matter what. But you know, there's all this work out there about, habit formation and healthy habits and creating practices. You know, for myself, I'm just getting back from a seven day silent retreat up at Insight Meditation Society, in Massachusetts. And part of my goal, my reason for, for doing that is not only the research behind retreats and the value of slowing down over long periods, but is to be able to have more resources when I come back. You know, I'm about to have a second child. Mm-hmm. There's certainly a part of my mind that's like, all right, I'm gonna do this, and there's gonna be massive roi. The return on investment of this time spent is gonna be huge, and I really do believe that. And I, I notice in myself having a consistent practice in general, practicing when things are calm, and I do feel safe, builds up this muscle for when things are not. Mm. And yet I got back on Sunday from this retreat and we had just, you know, my brother and sister-in-law and their daughter over for like Easter dinner. And I wasn't worried about it. I said, oh, no problem. It's just people close to me. It's not gonna be, you know, I'll be totally fine. And yet I still got overwhelmed. You know, I still had this and I. Spent the week trying to reconnect with my body, which I historically have been terrible at, and I was really able to feel it. I could feel my heart rate increasing and I could just notice these thoughts in my mind. But I also didn't stop and pause like I had dishes to do and I was doing any Easter egg hunt with my daughter. And like lots of it was joyful and it. Objectively was not remotely stressful or overwhelming, and yet I was having that experience. The the cool thing was I could be with it. The unfortunate part was I still didn't want to pause and slow down and stop. I just wanted to keep engaging and be there and not be the weirdo who needed to go take a few minutes every half an hour to like bring myself back down. So it's, that is just really interesting. The, the cultural expectations, the stories I'm telling myself, and just this desire, like you're saying to, to be successful, whether that's personally or professionally, and trying to be honest in this case with myself about what does give me the best chance for success. How, how often, how much time, you know, and that that can just, for me can be really challenging. How, how is that for you?

Stephanie: 20:51

So many things that you said there at first, just I appreciate you sharing an example of how it, it plays out in your life Very recently. It, what still sticks out to me is when you're like, I don't wanna be the weirdo that has to leave and you know, be by myself for a little bit. And that really resonated with me because I find, and I'm trying to be better about this is not apologizing for the things I need. Right. That's not quite what the fawn response is. Fawn response is like a people pleasing thing. Like, okay, I'll do all this for everybody cause once everybody else is okay, then I feel safe. Right. And so it's not quite what you were saying, but like this idea of I always ask myself, yeah, when I'm around. A couple years ago in one of the relationships that I was in, I very much appreciated being around like his family and his friends and all of that, but it got a lot for me at times, but it was really hard for me to be like, I'm gonna just go for a walk on my own right now. And I had to do a lot of work around why was it so hard for me to just date that for somebody else? And, and for me what came up was, well, what if I'm missing out on something? I have a lot of like fear of missing out sometimes. FOMO as well, and a part of Yep. And part of it was like, What if when I leave, they start saying things about me? And I started really like realizing that I have that part of, it's not even the, most of it's been sometimes not the fear of missing out. It's that I have the control, not really, but control. When I'm there, I can monitor everything that's going on and I can know what I can know what they think about me, which you never really know what anybody thinks about you. And so instead of just trusting. You need a break, go do your thing. And who cares if they're talking about you also? They're probably not, you're not that important, right? Like, like, we are important, but we're not important. You know? But like, this is this thing in my head that I'm like, well, of course they're gonna be talking about. No, they're probably not. Um, and so like, what, what was that about? You know, in my life that I was pre, I was creating more overwhelming stress because I wasn't. Taking care of myself and how weird that is, which is funny. I was listening to a podcast this morning. The interviewee was like, in the middle of the interview was like, ah, there's something blowing on me. Can we turn that off? They were all in person and the host was like, yeah, sure. Totally. And then was I just didn't celebrate the fact that you're like non codependency. And the person was like, what do you mean? He was like, well, I would've just sat through the entire interview freezing cuz I wouldn't have wanted to say anything because of whatever reason. And the guy, Why wouldn't I wanna say anything up? I'm cold. I'm cold. I'm gonna tell the person that I, he's like, yeah, but you know, my code and dependency would've come up and been like, Ooh, maybe they don't like me. He's like, you don't like me over the fact that I say I'm cold. And they had this whole interesting conversation. I was like, oh, that's me though. I probably would've sat there just cold because I didn't wanna like bother anybody or have them go, oh, why is she cold? Right? Like all of that. I don't even know if that makes sense, but Completely.

Peter: 23:49

Completely. And there's different situations that apply to each of us. Right. We're all, you know, have that in different ways and different moments. I think that's totally normal.

Stephanie: 23:59

Yeah. And this idea, the other thing that struck me was this idea of success, So I'm always thinking, and with my clients and with my students, it comes up all the time. It's like, well, how are you defining success? Right? So when we think of success and stress, there's so linked in so many ways. Both in a facilitating way and a debilitating way. Because sometimes what we, what creates the stress or the overwhelm, or the worry or the fear, whichever place we wanna put it, is that we're not living up to some definition of success. So if we really stop and like think about it, it's not our definition. It's someone else's that we're trying to like live up to, which is why it's creating this overwhelm in such a. A debilitating way. Whereas stress can also be helpful in success because if we think about like a bell curve, we wanna be right here with our stress, and so if we're down here, we're probably bored. We don't have a lot of stress, there's not a lot that's like, you know, giving us that pressure, Well, then we're probably gonna get disengaged. Maybe just feel a little depressive at times because there's nothing exciting to us. We're, we're not feeling challenged, whether it's personally or professionally, all of that. And so we tend to disengage and, and our performance tends to be lower because of that. Right. On the other end of it, we have so much pressure and so much overwhelm that we also have low performance because we become debilitated because we're like, oh my God, there's so much. And like our body is just like this. And we're like, we don't know where to go. We don't know where we're gonna be paralyzed. Right? We have to be somewhere in this middle here, which also relates with, um, the flow theory, which is like that path challenge balance where we're being challenged in different ways, but in a way that like helps us. Continue to move forward, not that we're being so challenged and we don't have the capacity to get there where it becomes that overwhelm. And so it's how are we finding that place? And the example I always give is I'm a runner and I didn't start running until like 2016. I'd never really run before. I played sports when I was younger, but a long time ago. And I decided I wanted to do the New York City. Sounds a little crazy and wild and it was, and I, but I was able to do it in a year, and I, with a lot of hard work, I always wanna tell people, like a lot of hard work, a lot of training. I got a lot of help. I, you know, reached out to the people I needed to reach out to. But when I would see training programs, there's a reason why they're designed the way they are. It's to be able to put a certain amount of stress on your body, on your mind, on your emotions, in a way that's gonna help you grow. But if you put too much too soon, what happens? You get injured. Also, as you're continuously doing this, if you don't take rest days, if you don't get massages, if you don't roll out, if you're not. You get injured. And I did that first year because I wasn't taking care of myself on those rest days. And I always remind myself that literally a physical metaphor for every other thing, whether it's building a business or building a family, right? Building a relationship, there has to be moments of rest and like pure rest. And if you're doing too much too fast too, There's gonna be a rupture somewhere.

Peter: 27:19

Absolutely, Stephanie. Absolutely. And this is where this term burnout, I think, has become so prevalent. I don't wanna come back to that in a second, but what you're speaking to is also a lot of, a lot of our culture uses the term balance. I think you and I tend toward the word harmony, right? So work life balance. Mm-hmm. Whatever you're talking about. All levels of balance. Mm-hmm. But I balance denotes this Perfect. Uh, you know, equal on both sides, which might happen in fleeting moments a couple times a year, probably not even on a daily basis. Where's harmony? We're ebbing and flowing and we're checking in and noticing what's happening and to be able to. Yeah, to, to be honest with ourselves, a lot of it comes back to like, all right, these, this question, what do I need? What's happening right now? What's going on and what do I need? How do I care for myself? And obviously having the tools and more understanding and and practices goes a long way. But to be able to actually answer that question and give it to yourself often goes against our cultural messaging and this conditioning that we have. So I really appreciate you speaking to your experience and. While you have many practices and are able to notice, it doesn't mean you're exempt from, from having these challenges. Mm-hmm. And I love what the sentence you said earlier when we started, prolonged stress can lead to burnout. Mm-hmm. I'm hearing a lot of people reference, you know, I'm really feeling burned out. Like I think I'm burned out. And, mm-hmm. I just don't find it. It's, it's kind of a buzzword and I don't find it very useful. I love to try and help people acknowledge this spectrum of the amount of challenge that we're experiencing, whatever terms we want to use. And kind of celebrating. All right. It sounds like you're really noticing that the current approach is not sustainable for you. Mm-hmm. This prolonged stress, prolonged anxiety, overwhelm, trying to do more than is actually best for you completely understandably, based on these cultural messages that we're getting. And so you might be heading toward burnout. But most likely you'll know when you're burnt out like that. There's nothing left. Potentially, you know, depending on how we're defining burnout, I suppose. But to be able to, to check in along the way and even use those moments of injury where something happens as maybe wake up call feels dramatic, but as an indicator like, oh, that's, that's a mess. Just like pain in our body is our body. Just letting us know. I think of it as a child, like, Hey, I need some attention. Something here isn't going well, and so much of mindfulness practice that I love is coming. Back to that pain, turning toward it and asking like, how are things going? Like what, what is it that you need? Coming back to this question, so yeah, thank you for sharing all those examples.

Stephanie: 30:04

I would love to just share as I was listening to you, cause I was like, wow, we call it mindfulness. Which at first I was like, oh, that's in the mind. And then as you were talking, I was like, well, in the thematic world we believe that the body is the mind, right mind as body, right? And so the mindfulness is really how are we coming back to our body, which in and science is. It's getting to this point where it's like, yeah, the brain is not just up here. The brain is the body. The nervous system is what's activated this whole time. And this idea of what is my body telling me as opposed to, what is this like? Other narrator and I, it's

Peter: 30:45

this wonderful computer artist that does so much for us, and yet we allow it to drive rather than letting the body, the heart be the, captain, the, Conductor and allowing the computer to back us up and help calculate the

Stephanie: 31:01

data. Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many things that came up as you were speaking about, I agree that the word burnout is become a buzzword. It was even pre covid management companies like Deloitte and all of them were doing research on it and all of that. And, While many of it is true, it has become one of these like, oh, this is the word, you know, like that we're gonna use and hold onto. And I appreciate that you work with your clients on being like, okay, well let's look at the spectrum, right? Because it definitely is, it's definitely a spectrum. my instinct always says that you'll know because your body, as we were saying, will tell you you'll get sick and the science is there to back it up. Because what's happening is when you're going into that stress cycle, like I mentioned before, you're going into fight, flight, freeze fawn, and your catabolic hormones are being released. So your cortisol and your adrenaline and all of that, and though that is really helpful for shorter periods of time and totally necessary at places. So this is again, that idea of Stress is not bad or good. It's whether it's propelling us forward or it's holding us back, There are moments where we really want our fight, flight, or freeze to be in, in effect, if we are in danger, I hope you run away or fight back, or all of that. You know? There's always that big example of like the mother getting like herculean strength because they need to get their kid out of a situation. That is exactly when stress is very important and we want it to kick in. But if that person is in that Herculean state all the time, over a period of time, you just can't do that. So that's where the sustainability thing comes in. So when I coach people and teach people about their relationship with stress, we look at it in four different components, So we really wanna look at it comprehensively. We need to check into these four different boxes. So one of them is source management. And in order to even know that you need to know where your stressors are coming from, what is the source of them, and it's really amazing that, you know, going back to that first story of why I got interested. Was that I would start asking people outta curiosity, well, what is it that's stressing you out? And even that one question, many people didn't know how to answer that, Because we're just so programmed to say that we're stressed and. Because a lot of our society is about competition is someone will be oh yeah, well look what I have to do. Which also then we're not holding space for each other. We're not caring for each other when we're just kind of adding and piling. So if we can just get clear, what are the stressors? So going back to my example of transitioning back to home. Okay, well, There's no food in my house. So that's one I gotta figure out how to get food, right? I may be tired, you know, I have this to, I have that too. If I can almost list those out, and go, here's the source. This is what it's coming from, then I can create a plan to either reduce the source or eliminate it, Not in every case can we eliminate it, but how can we reduce it? So that's one thing. The next one is prevention, So if I know that I am always a little overwhelmed when I am coming back from traveling, well, I can prevent that overwhelm, or a lot of the overwhelm if maybe that first day back. I don't start taking calls until the afternoon, Because then I have the whole morning to. Do the, the like human things I need to do to then feel like I'm prepared to be there for my clients or to take meetings, So that's a prevention thing,? I'm not jumping outta bed at 9:00 AM I have my first coaching call the next day. I mean, that's what I used to do and it was terrible,? For both me and the client. So it's like, okay, that's a prevention thing. For teams that I work with, of course there're gonna be times that are stressful. If you have, like, depending on what type of team it is, and you have a project coming around and then you know another project's gonna come, but you also know that there's this and there's this. And as a manager you realize that so-and-so's on P T O here and there. Yeah. Zooming out and going, how can we prevent. Unnecessary stress By, maybe we need to bring in a contractor for, you know, part of this, or maybe we need to, you know, shift the workload in some ways, you know, so that we can prevent some of these things coming forward. There's some, some things we're not gonna be able to prevent, right? Then the third category is thought management. So, yeah, there are certain things we can't prevent. There's certain sources we can't really reduce or eliminate. So how can I change the way I'm thinking about them? Because again, if I change the way I'm thinking about them and I ask myself, what am I learning from this? Or how is this helping me? then I shift the fact that I don't think of it as threatening as much. I think of it as something manageable or maybe. You know, even a, a positive experience at the end of the day. And then the last category being relaxation, So mindfulness, breath practices, walking, cre, like tapping into your creativity, movement, any of that sort of stuff. Some of those can be done right in the moment, We always have access to our breath. some of it can be like built in, I'm gonna go to yoga, or whatever it may be. so that you're really creating this, this holistic plan for yourself. Whereas a lot of times people look at it as like, I'm gonna manage my stress when I go to the gym and that's what I do. Or I'll ask companies,what are you doing for your employees? And I'm well, we have, uh, yoga on Fridays, you know, at lunch. And I'm like, well, that's really kind that you do that. I really hope people are eating at lunch cuz that's a basic human need. Secondly, like yoga is great, but how are you creating systems or empowering them with tools that they can use in the moment? Like when they get into a meeting that starts getting tense. Does everyone have the ability to get up and do a downward dog if they need to in the middle of the meeting? Which by the way, I think is a great idea and I hope people start implementing that, but probably not. So what are the other things that we're doing that. Systems and containers and give people the tools to be able to do this both in a zoomed in way and a zoomed out way.

Peter: 37:02

Zoomed in and zoomed out. Yes. The different lenses. Awesome. So can I try and restate just to see if, see if I got the four steps? Cause I think this could be Sure. Super useful for folks. So the first step, mm-hmm. Was, and I'm forgetting the exact words you used, but, but awareness of what's happening. Is that right? How would you phrase it? Yeah. Source.

Stephanie: 37:19

Source management.

Peter: 37:21

Source management. Where is this stress coming from? What's happening? Step two, which I wanna unpack a little bit more. Creating a plan, right? How might I be able to work with this? Step three is thought manage. So noticing where our mind is going and what's happening in our minds. And then step four is around practices. And basically what can I do? What are the resources that I have to support myself around these different stressors?

Stephanie: 37:49

Yes, and I will just say that the way I define what you, all the information you got was correct. The categories I would say was source management, prevention, thought management, relaxation. Got it. And then there are tools within all of them.

Peter: 38:04

Got it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, sorry. I really, I focused in on this plan piece. It's just something that's come up a lot for mm-hmm. For me, with others, as, as I, I can notice this in myself and I hear from others well, plans. Always go wrong anyway, so why plan it all? So why? And it's even to what you're speaking of from coming back. Like, can I just write down these, the source management, can I just write these down? It doesn't even have to be, here's what I'll do with it, but let me just have it all listed out. And I love just getting it out of our brain and on paper or on whatever app we use, or just our scratchpad or notepad, but just having it written down. And I love. The military quote, no plans survives first contact and battle. That doesn't mean that they don't take the time to plan. Right? There is immense value in being able to just have something down. Look at it. From my perspective, one of the most valuable things is then as we go about executing some strategy to try and get those things done. We have some reference to how did that go? Oh, right. This is what I was thinking would happen. Now I can reflect back and, and the other quote that I love is we don't learn from experience. We learn from reflecting on our experience. Mm mm-hmm So, again, coming back to pausing, if you don't take this time to slow down check in, reflect how did that go? What was I hoping to accomplish, what actually happened? That can really deepen a sense of learning and self-understanding. Cuz there's all these books, there's many resources on how best to do these things. Maybe those work for us, maybe they don't. And it can take a lot of prefrontal cortex energy to experiment and to try something new. And so how do we just lower that barrier for ourselves and give ourselves some reference, some resource to be able to check back in? How much does that match up with sort of the research and the work you've done?

Stephanie: 39:55

Hmm, so much. So the word that kept coming up for me is transformation, So, In the corporate world, big words, change management, Well change management and transformation. And you what you were saying about we don't learn from experience, we actually learn from our reflection on the experience. So transformative learning theory would say yes, you have to have an experience of some sort first. And really any experience has the potential to be transformative, yet rarely are they. We don't then take the time to pause afterwards, probably many times afterwards to reflect on the experience. And then the actual transformation change part is how are we integrating that reflection, that insight going forward, and why a lot of change management doesn't work. You know, myself included, I'll go off and do a retreat somewhere or whatever it may be, or traveling, traveling can be incredibly transformation, transformational. But if I don't, then take the time to stop afterwards and go, what did I learn from that? How do I wanna integrate it going forward? Then it was just a fun experience, right? And when I'm talking to like corporate clients, I'm like, yeah, that's great that you're sending people off to these different experiences and these different conferences. I'm sure they'll have a great time. What's your plan? What's your integration plan on how to integrate what they learned going forward? Because that's where. The actual ROI doesn't happen because mostly, and this is not a judgment on anybody, this is what happens as human beings. It's like we go to this conference, we learn this thing. We're like, oh my God, this is great. This is amazing. I can't wait to do this with my team. You come back, you try to do it with your team. Maybe it's not successful. Here's that word. It's success again, the first time you do it, but you get frustrated, then you don't do it again, Or you try it and you. I don't know that I did this right? well, of course you're trying something new. We're not always gonna be great at something the first time we try it. Also, no one else in your team went to that same conference or workshop. So we also have to have some grace and patience in allowing them to understand the change, So in order to really create that transformation, there has to be time for reflect. Time for insights and then time for integration. And then that's where one of the reasons I became a coach was having someone, like a coach be there to partner with you as you go through integrating this and working through the obstacles, the frustrations, the needing to be more patient, the trying new things, and knowing that you're not alone, so that over a period of time you see these small things shifting and then that's when it creates. Greater r o i because those small things shifting over a period of time tend to last longer because you're doing it. you're building new habits is really what you're doing, and you're shifting the culture or changing culture, whatever that might be. But it takes time.

Peter: 42:53

It takes time. Yes. To make it sustainable. And sometimes we want the big wins, the big successes. What can I, how can I hack this and flip the swish overnights? And that's not always how it works. Thank you Stephanie. So I'm looking at the time, I'm realizing, you know, as we knew we're not gonna get to all the, the topics that we thought about. Yeah. And you know, you talked about your North star in, in some of the mm-hmm. The notes that we had before today. So I wonder if that's, if we could maybe integrate that cause I think the other topic. It relates to this, this stress and these practices that we're talking about. And like you said, I feel it's an honor to get, to create this space with people every day to do this reflection and check in I know that's kind of part of what this. North Star is for you, and I do my best at the end. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're using coaching to reflect and, and learn and bring that learning home. And then I do my best, I'm sorry to those, I don't do this every time, but to ask at the end of every coaching session, all right, what did you learn from this? Reflecting? So try. Mm-hmm. It's like, how do we just keep cascading this question and to keep checking in at whatever cadence is useful to integrate it. But, but anyway, I'm really curious to ask about, Sort of maybe that north star to where that comes from and probably how that led into you taking this leap in the last couple years of mm-hmm. Going from having a full-time job to being an entrepreneur and a solopreneur right now.

Stephanie: 44:20

Yeah. Great question. So I. Started working on my North Star statement many years ago, I wanna say probably, around 2016 was a really pivotal year for me in different ways. I was really trying to start figuring out what this coaching, consulting thing could look like. I was teaching full-time at a school, but also was coaching for different. Places and doing workshops and, was still performing as a dance and musical theater artist and directing, choreographing a lot. And so there was all these different things I was doing., and part of it came out of a way to just Have something really concrete to share with people because the, the comments or the feedback I would get a lot from people were like, oh my God, you're doing so many different things. Like they're so different from each other. Whereas I didn't feel that way at all. Internally, I was like, they're not different from each other. They're all doing the same thing just in a different vehicle. Like the, the intention behind all of them. Is the same, just the, the way in which it's being executed may look different to the outside world. So part of me was getting frustrated that I always felt like I had to almost like defend myself, to people, but also was a way for me to get clear on what it was I was already feeling internally and be able to communicate that in a way that then made sense to other people. Cause I think as we both probably realize, when you're building a business, Yeah, you may think you're great at something, but if you can't communicate that to someone else, no one's gonna ever hire you. So having to be like, well this is a great opportunity, it was a frustrating, it was causing a lot of breath that I was having to defend myself all the time. And I was like, well, let's take this as an opportunity. So I started getting really clear on what is. What is it that I feel like I'm doing? You know, what is it that I am passionate about? What is it that is similar? if I reflected on all the different things I was doing, what was it that was coming out of all those experiences? And sat down and after many, many different iterations came up with what my North Star statement in is, which is I create and hold safe spaces for people to understand themselves more deeply so that they can connect with others and the world around them in more meaningful ways. And some people might look at that as like a mission or a brand. Fine. I really like stars and no, I North Star just kind of resonated with me more. And because the North Star, you know typically that that's your guiding light. If you know where North is, you can figure out which direction to go. For me, it also has helped me to. Use it as a compass as to what I say yes and no to in all aspects of my life, So, really thinking oh, that person just pitched me that this opportunity sounds interesting. Does it really align and resonate with my North star and what I'm trying to build in my life? And then it's like, you know what, it's not right now. And then I can really, with clarity and confidence, be like, thank you. This just isn't where I'm at right now. Versus other times being yeah, this is really kind of aligning with where I'm at. And so then I'm also then creating, going back to that harmony word, Harmony and alignment in my life. So that I can continue to flow in the ways that I need to flow in to stay sustainable, And sometimes the things I've said yes to, like a year and a half ago that felt like they were really in there. Maybe now they're not. They've run their course, And being honest with myself of saying all right, I'm ready to let that go. I've learned so much from this experience. I've now even honed in on what that statement means even more to me. And that's not in alignment anymore with that statement. So how can I let that go to make space for more things that are in, in better alignment?

Peter: 48:03

Beautiful. Wow. Thank you. Could, can we hear the North Star one more time? I just loved it. I would love

Stephanie: 48:08

to. Yeah, sure. So I create and hold safe spaces so that people can understand themselves more deeply, so that they can connect with others and the world around them in more meaningful. I also firmly believe this is my own belief that we can only connect with others to the extent to which we've connected with ourselves.

Peter: 48:32

Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I completely agree. Completely agree. And it immediately, Terrifies me of like, how connected with myself. Am I really? Like I'm practicing. Oh, I said that

Stephanie: 48:44

and then I was like, oh gosh. Like

Peter: 48:47

good. Oh man. Yes, yes. Paradox is real. There is. I love that. Cuz my, you know, for me the, the term that I've been using for the last year or two now, I think I came up with, I've, I love the term North Star and I actually have it for my, for the podcast here. I sort of said my hope, my vision, my true north for me is a world that leads with love. Mm-hmm. And that's, I sort of say my, my purpose statement at the moment. That can always change. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bringing my purpose, as far as I can tell, and this applies to parenting and partnership and leadership and professional realms, is bringing more love into leadership, so mm-hmm. Whatever format, but that, and it's just terminology that works for me and to me. Completely aligned with what you're saying as well, and, and it's just finding this language that works for each of us and exactly like you said, the creating the space sort of, I, I heard a quote that I, I'm not gonna be able to reproduce, but this idea that in order to, and this really goes back to everything we've been talking about in order to succeed or like really get along in today's externally focused world. We need to ignore our internal instincts on many levels. Mm. And what I'm, what I'm hearing from you, and certainly what I'm trying to communicate is, is an invitation to slow down and come back to our intuition, which I don't even know if I can hear or understand a lot of the time. But I believe it does not come from our heads from up here. I believe it is so much more somatic, so much more from our body. Mm-hmm. And I feel. Very limited still or stunted, let alone as a white cyst male in our supremacist culture. But just I think for a vast majority of us, this is not training or learning or understanding that we've been given despite the mm-hmm. Thousands of human generations of indigenous cultures and, you know, wisdom that has spoke to just this, you know, and mm-hmm. It's, we've, we've determined this independently many thousands of times, and yet, For many reasons, which, you know, we could do our best to guess at, but no need to unpack right now like this. We're very far from that right now. And so I'm just really grateful for all the work that you're doing and for your willingness to have this conversation, to keep coming back and talking about these things and to bring the vulnerability that, that you are, and, you know, can be challenging for me too. But you inspire me to, to open myself up and say like, yeah, it's really. No one has any of this figured out. I love the term, the only difference between an expert and a novice is the expert knows we're all winging it. We're all looking it up like to different levels and degrees, but I mean, especially now, like no one knows everything. No one has it all figured out despite many people coming across like they do. Sort of sharing maybe even similar messages to the ones we are with this language that's absolutist or the certainty. And I just love the phrase, I don't know at the concept of beginner's minds, I'm not sure. And to your point from earlier about experimentation and trying things, look, let, why don't I have an experience? Let me, let me take some steps and then step back and see how that went. Be as intentional as we can. I found myself intimidated, like you said too, about like, all right, what's my plan for integration? Like, I don't know. I'm gonna do my best to remember of what I learned and mm-hmm. And bring it back up. And you know, I notice in myself I could even be more intentional about, I love taking in as much information as possible. And just kinda hoping like some of that will stick, you know? But even from today, from whoever's might be listening to this conversation, like, what's one thing, what really stuck with me? What's resonating with me and how can I bring that back? I was telling you earlier from my retreat, the one of the main things that I'm taking back from last week is this idea instead of being out through my eyes and intense and focused trying to come in. Back and down, like stay inside myself, feel the back of my body, and do my best to feel that sense of weight or gravity. To just keep me in eye the cheesy word of like grounded, right, or centered. Just like I could say those, they'll sound like a good idea, but this is a little bit more practical for me of like, how do I feel that, and I've probably done it five or 10 times throughout our conversation like, cause I'm so interested in what you're saying and like I have so many taking notes and what do I want to do? I tried to mute earlier while I drank. Pretty sure I failed that. But it's in back and down, right? It's all okay. There's maybe to your story about the, the family situation, no one's really paying that much attention there might be moments of judgment and those are fleeting and we're all back to worrying about ourselves. So can we just allow ourselves to settle and again, be honest with ourselves and check back.

Stephanie: 53:58

So many wonderful word things there. And I know we're at time, but some things that like really stuck out to me. Sure. And words that came to mind as you were speaking. You know, this idea of experimentation and it, it kind of went back to something you said earlier of like, we need to have this plan or we need to have this or we need to have that. And one of the things that very early on when I was creating the work that I was doing around stress and stress management, I actually got really overwhelmed, like when I did my yoga teacher training. It was like, well, you gotta practice yoga every day. And that felt so I felt so constricted by that. Or the meditation, mindfulness work, well, you gotta practice every day. And I'm like, oh my God, I didn't practice today. I failed. And I started realizing that was actually creating more distress. And it was wait a second. What worked for me today may not work for me tomorrow. So what could I try? What could I experiment with? And what works for me may never work for you and vice versa. And so how can we continue to. Be open to learning new things and new tools and play around with them. So that would be the other word is how can we play more? because it's, I mean, there's so much research around the fact that we actually learn through play and that if we're not willing to just kinda be like, let's see what happens. And that actual play. Is different than games. That play is just a pure, fun, enjoyment, being in the flow, doing the thing without that added, who's winning? Who's this, who's that? Because then it becomes something different. The judgment comes in. Right? Whereas when the play, when you're very much in play, you're, there is no judgment. And the other thing that came up as you were speaking is that all these little judgments were placing whether. Most of them are not real, right? Like they're the story that we made up of even just the idea of I tried this thing and it failed. And it's like, what? That's a judgment. For me, And this'll be my last thing is like one of the biggest transitions from going from a full-time job where a schedule was given to me and there were specific things that needed to be done and blah, blah, blah. And I very much wanted to get outta that to now a place where I get to make my own schedule. I get to create all of that, which sounds really wonderful and free. Has been really challenging for me at times because I'll spend a day and at the end of the day I'll be like, well, this was a terrible day. I was not productive at all. And then I'll be like, well, how am I defining productivity? And I had to stop and catch myself in being like, am I defining it by how many billable hours I have this week? Or am I defining it? How much time I took to go out and play. Am I defining it as like, you know, all these different things And it's really, I mean, to me, as hard as it has been at times, the gift of being this solo entrepreneur right now has really been to check into. the systems, the conditions that I have that I didn't even know I had at times and being like, is this working for me? And if it's not, how do I wanna change it? And then having the self-compassion to know that it's not gonna change right away. That just because I had the awareness one day about it doesn't mean that that's not gonna come up next week and the week after and the week after. And how can I keep reminding myself of that so that it does become something that I can finally let go.

Peter: 57:05

Yes to everything. Reminding myself I'm gonna try and limit my Dan, Harris references from the 10% Happier Podcast. It's one of my favorites and I don't wanna copy his work. But this, this idea of the, the word for mindfulness, just cuz you referenced this earlier too, the, the original poly word is sati or mindfulness and one of the original translations, possibly more accurate. Instead of mindfulness as you spoke to, is remembering. Mm-hmm. I just remembering and I love to say it as remembering what's important. Remembering to whatever degree we're aware of who, who we are and what we want, and the, that's the work I love to do with people. So let's, let's chip away at answering some of those questions and. And it's also a practice for me. Every time I use the word work, I almost did it earlier. I said professional instead, but every time I use the word work, I try and switch it to play. How can I relate to my entire life as playing with just not to not take it seriously, but to not take it mm-hmm. Too seriously and to relate to it in the most useful, effective, harmonious way possible. As opposed to, you said earlier trying to control and squeeze every ounce. Mm-hmm. You know, effectiveness and productivity out of each moment, which I'm pretty confident, will not actually get me what I ultimately want, which is some sense of of meaning and inner peace. So, Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for all of these lessons day. Thank you for, for playing along with me. This has been so much fun. And yeah, we could just keep going right now. Maybe we'll just do episode two since I have 15 other questions I wanted to ask. Although for my own energy, I probably need some lunch, so maybe let's We'll, that's true. Pause. That's true. And do it another time. But thank you so much for taking the time today, Stephanie. It's really

Stephanie: 58:59

been an honor. Of course, and thank you for having me on it. Like I said, it was, it was definitely a lot of fun, a lot of play, and, uh, can't wait to be back at some point.

59:13

All rights. Thank you again to Stephanie Simpson. And thank you to each of you for being with us for this conversation on the fresh perspectives podcast. If you enjoyed it and found it useful I'd be so grateful if you'd be willing to take a moment to subscribe offer any feedback And share it with a friend if you think they might benefit from listening Thanks so much for your curiosity I'm Wishing you courage and compassion Be well