The Fresh Perspectives Podcast
The Fresh Perspectives Podcast
Leadership Through Feeling the Fear and Doing It Anyway | Desiree Perez
So grateful to Desiree for joining me for this conversation about leadership, facing our fears, brave conversations, and non-arrival! Please check out their website to learn more or reach out: https://www.desireeperez.com/
Thank you for being here. Please subscribe and share if you feel called, and reach out anytime at https://www.fp-ct.org/
That's what goes through my head constantly You mentioned earlier Adapting to a new job and that's what I tell myself Feel the fear and do it anyway And it's fine It's totally fine I acknowledge my nervousness and my fear and I do it anyway and the results are good
Peter Callahan:Hello and welcome to the Fresh Perspectives Podcast, where our intention is growing together and leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan, and I believe we each have incredible capacity to continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species, and bring way more love and a lot less fear. Into the world and our daily lives changing can be hard. And I've found that even if nothing changes, having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective can change everything. I'm glad you're here, today, we are connecting with my friend and past colleague Desiree Perez. Desiree was born in Argentina and spent most of her life growing up in Germany, but has since lived all over the world. She speaks fluent English as you'll hear, while also German, Spanish, and is versed in French in Italian as well. So she's got me beat by about all of those languages still working on in English. So Desiree has had an amazing career already, and I won't go through all of it, but after making her way up through airports, she was in the aviation industry as you hear more about in Germany. She made her way over to the United States, down in Texas, working for Flex Jet and then eventually Gulfstream Aerospace, which if you know anything about G four s is pretty cool in my book. then Desiree was actually the airport manager at LAX for Air New Zealand before then beginning her journey as a coach. And became a certified coach through ipec, which I've mentioned before where I went and through the International Coach Federation and just spent the last year and a half with Sage Coaching, who I'm also a coach for. That's how we originally connected. Uh, now Desiree is the senior consultant for leadership and organizational development at Curium Solutions. And we had such a fun conversation, really focused on leadership and Desiree shares some of her story of loving to travel, loving aviation, how that connected her with her father, and really enjoying her first job working hourly at an airport in Germany. She then actually lost her father at 22 years old, which was the same age where she was promoted into leading a team of 80 people at the airport. Desiree shares some of the challenges of those early days of leadership, and we actually role play a difficult conversation with one of her team members who had a, an interesting idea We also talk about the value of taking the time to really listen and validate and acknowledge even when it can feel like a waste of time as a leader, how our fear of not being liked can hold us back in so many situations, and especially around giving others constructive feedback. And then we kind of wrap up talking about why we both believe taking the time to build trust is so valuable. And share this concept of non-rival practice and we both talk about this idea of there's nowhere to get to, and we are simply in the process on this journey of living, doing our best to not take things too seriously. So thanks again for being here and let's jump in with Desiree. All right, well welcome Desiree. So glad to have you today.
Desiree Perez:Thanks Peter. It's nice to be here. Appreciate the invite.
Peter Callahan:Yeah, of course. Of course. I know you're just transitioning to a new leadership role and you've got a lot going on, so it really means a lot that you just made some time to to be on with me, and I'm just extremely excited to share. Some of your wisdom and insights and journey with, you know, at least a couple other people who may be listening today to our conversation. So thank you so much for being here,
Desiree Perez:Thank you, Peter. Yeah, like you said, it's gonna be on the internet for a decade, so we'll see.
Peter Callahan:Hopefully if I keep the subscription going. exactly. So I know, you know, we talked a little bit about what we could talk about and one of each of our favorite topics is this word leadership. And actually I'm gonna also put a plug in for aviation cause you've got a whole aviation background and as I'm just working on my pilot's license, maybe we'll filter that in in some way. That'd be great. but maybe just sharing however far you want to go back, some of your journey into leadership and maybe kind of, you know, landing the plane to where, wherever you'd like to, around what leadership means to you now and how you view it. But I'd love to hear some backstory. Whatever. Whatever you feel called to
Desiree Perez:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there's almost no way to share without sharing my, my passion and my background in aviation. you know, I think aviation continues to be a big part of my life. just not in my day to day, but yes. I have an affinity for it. I love it. It's great. but my background essentially, you know, being born in Argentina, growing up in Germany, Having a dad that absolutely loved to travel and thought, you know, the most he can teach me and the best things he can teach me happened through travel. So I was very blessed that I was able to travel just very early on in my life, all throughout my youth. not to say I'm all today so you know that. Sparked this interest in people and different cultures and all of those things. And as I graduated high school in Germany, the thing was, hey, I have to go to college and I have to get a degree, right? So I'm set up for a career. And so I did, I went to college and I started, studying international business, which. Obviously fit sort of in, in that area of interest for me. my parents ran their own businesses all throughout me growing up, so I was very immersed in the business world very early on. And, I started studying and like everybody does, let's find a job just to supplement, you know, your, your income or have your first income really. So I went to work at the airport. And I think a lot of the rest is history. I started as an hourly basis as a customer service agent. and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I loved working with people, seeing different people, really finding my role and helping people to connect with other people. you know, it was always really exciting for me to, when somebody was running light and trying to get them on the plane and doing all of those things, and I absolutely found a passion in that. I found a passion in the thing that no day is the same as yesterday. Every day was different. and it also build out a specific skillset for me. you know, to an extent that I wouldn't wanna do any work, today, that where I would say today is the same as tomorrow, right? In terms of what I'm doing. so fast forward, it's, really good at what I was doing. And I was really working overnight and then starting throughout the day, and obviously at some point in time your body's like, what are we doing? And I felt it after a year and a half. And so my doctor said to me, I think you have to make a decision. And my decision was clear. I dropped out of college and I worked full-time at the airport. Very much to the demise of my family. They all said, how can you drop out of college? You need a college degree. If you wanna have a career, you need a college degree. And, nope, that was it. I loved working at the airport and so I was really good at what I was doing technically. And at 22 years old, they offered me a supervisor role or at that point, called a duty manager role. And so now I had 80 people reporting to me, on my shift. I had absolutely no idea how to treat people. I mean, obviously I know how to treat people, but from a leadership perspective, no idea. How do I go about it? How do I have those tough conversations? How, how do I get everybody to row in the same direction? so. That has been the theme all throughout my career and I continue developing through the ranks and higher positions and more responsibility. And there was always this big question mark of am I actually a good leader? What does it mean to be a good leader? And. You know, in 2011 I had the opportunity to relocate to the US from Germany. for job offer. I came, I did that. It was great. Continued to grow through the rings, more opportunities opened up. I went with the flow. I moved all over the place. then at some point in time I was like, okay, I'm ready to get my master's degree. So that tells you, although I dropped out of college, I still got a college degree. I got it while working full-time. And the question was, what is my master's gonna be? And I decided to get a master's in leadership and strategy and I think that was sort of a pivot point in my career and I loved it and I got done with it. it was a self-paced thing, so I got done with it in 10 months. That's how much I loved it. And, graduated with that. Did, case study. For the employee I was working for at that point in time and decided, you know what, I wanna become an executive coach. I had no idea what a coach does but that's what I wanted to do. So I went and I became a certified coach. but that for about, 11 months, almost a year, process to become an executive coach and it changed so much. in terms of my perception, in terms of learning about myself, and I knew that I wanted to help others with exactly that and defining what their role as leaders is, and because that's different for everyone. And part of that was also because, you know, I've had some really good bosses throughout my career and I had some bosses where I thought, I don't know. And that's just my own perception. so I think all of those things combined then ultimately led me to work as a coach. And fast forward almost seven, eight years now, you know, this is what I do on a, on a daily basis is work with leadership, work on employee engagement things and change management things. is incredibly hard for any human being. So as a leader, how do you help others through that? and I'm so passionate about it. as a matter of fact, I took my daughter to the doctor yesterday and I was a new doctor and the nurse, as a nurse practitioner nurse, she was asking me, so what do you do for work? And I said, you know, I have organizations with change and transformation and leadership development and people understanding more about themselves so that they can work through blockers. And she said, this is more of what the world needs nowadays when we hear what's going on in corporations and so on. And not that I needed it, but it was such a moment of, yes, this is why I'm doing it. and I absolutely love what I do on a daily basis.
Peter Callahan:Amazing. Amazing, wonderful. Wow, you really landed the plane beautifully there too. That's impressive though
Desiree Perez:Well, 16 years of aviation sort should bring you something about landing a plane, right?
Peter Callahan:Yes yes You gotta get that flare down. sure your air speed's right. Yeah that's
Desiree Perez:Yeah. Yes.
Peter Callahan:Oh, thank you Desiree. Well, there's too many topics already to follow back up on, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my best here, but so many ways we can go. And of the early things you said, this sort of led to you dropping out and not continuing your degree at that time. was it how much you loved the work you were doing and as someone who also loves to travel, and hearing how much you got from that and how that of opened you up and drove you and probably made you feel more drawn to the airport in general. So it's, you know, you went there to find a job, but I've just encountered many humans at the airport who don't seem to feel the same way about their job as you do. You did and, do now and thinking about. Sort of what you were talking about, different leaders having their own, defining what their role is, having their own approach, and don't know, I guess part of me is curious just to start, of that level of engagement that you were experiencing, what, what were the factors that you think led to that? Because not only at airport, I, you know, I just know a lot of people who don't feel, so many clients that I work with feel. That level of engagement or don't even have an idea of how to create that. So what, what do you think was leading to that for you at that time? And then maybe we can parlay it, parlay that into how can help foster that.
Desiree Perez:Yeah. I think for me it was a connection. To my passion, right? My passion of traveling. So this is what I grew up with. it was also very much sort of something that connected me to my dad. I lost my dad when I was 22, so very relatively early on. And I felt like that was always the thing that he and I connected on, and we had so many, you know, great memories. So there was something really meaningful behind that. The other thing, I think is that I have an incredible value for freedom and it symbolized freedom for me, freedom in the sense that I was trusted and so I could do what I needed to do. Freedom in the sense of people get to fly on airplanes, and that for me to an extent, symbolizes freedom. freedom to create, freedom to new beginnings, to start new chapters, to reconnect with people, right? In so many ways. And you, you get to enable that. So I found meaning in that. I found meaning in enabling people to have successful business meetings, right? did I consciously know that at that point in time? No, I didn't. but I think, you know, just really reflecting back on that, and the other thing, I said it earlier and I'm gonna say it again, was just the, the fast paced and it's changing and every day is different and every day you solve a new problem. that just fills my cup to this day. it's what I love to do.
Peter Callahan:Wow. Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, I love the connection to. To the, the value of freedom. That's really cool to hear. And just how many ways, like you said, you didn't realize this at the time, but looking back it's like, oh yeah, there were so many boxes checked here for me. And then connection to your dad, I'm sorry that you lost your dad so early at 22 And it's interesting that at that same age wound up with 80 people underneath you You know that you're responsible for I love the Simon Sinek quote leadership is not about being in charge It's about caring for those in our charge So you had people to care for to some degree and I part of me is just curious at 20 like what happens Like can you share a few experiences Like that must have been so challenging And
Desiree Perez:Yeah I I don't think I knew that it was caring for right so it was this so you also have to see I was in a different cultural environment right I was in in Germany where everything is very process driven and outcome driven Everything is very regulated So there was a certain swim line that I was you know following and fitting into And I think it was also a time where this whole thing of feeling and caring and those things really didn't have the space in the workplace Right So short of that so
Peter Callahan:record That's
Desiree Perez:yeah So we still We still do yes Absolutely But I think today we at least have the conversations about it So with sort of putting this piece of caring and connecting with people to the side was challenging because I was like how do I provide the feedback How do I get all the people to row in the same direction I've had an ability Thank goodness it's just a gift that I have that I can quickly connect dots and I can come up with ideas that are out of the box But that doesn't mean that everybody does and that's okay But understanding that as a leader is tough And then how do you bring people along you know I I love the story There's a system in Germany that you when you go on vacation you know you book you know like your two weeks air travel with the hotel and everything as a package And so at that time in Germany they would offer a Precheck in the night before Right So we didn't have the apps We didn't have any of that So I mean I'm talking like I'm 60 years old but
Peter Callahan:But you
Desiree Perez:it's not but
Peter Callahan:to pre-check in is that what
Desiree Perez:you actually yes actually had
Peter Callahan:even imagine
Desiree Perez:You had to go to the airport to pre-check in So it was from six to nine It was for the following morning early early departure flights because all the vacation flights those that are part of the east packages would depart very early in the morning on So it was an extra service that you could go and drop off your bag your back the night before so you didn't have to worry about it in the morning and so we had you know technic generally we would have like lines out the door Massive operation And one of the agents that was reporting well reporting into me for that for that specific shift he had a military background And so in his mind he came up with a really effective system a red card a yellow card and a green card So people that were not
Peter Callahan:European football Not to me Okay That's in too Got it
Desiree Perez:So he would you know if people were giving him a hard time we would show him the record and off you go back to the to to the end of the line And that was his way of managing customer expectations and you know customers that wouldn't follow quote unquote the rules And so that was my first thing I was I was sort of faced with of Obviously you can't do that So how do you manage that How do you provide the feedback How do you I mean you know it was stuff like that That's at the end of the day it's nothing you know or shattering or anything like that But how do you have a conversation about that Well how do you say that How do you address it How do you say it in a way that it doesn't create a crack and a relationship so yeah so I very vividly have that memory of my first tough conversation that I need to have about Hey that card system is really not working a great idea
Peter Callahan:So all right great So that that was a little example here that that card system isn't really working but great idea And often when I because this is maybe my favorite topic to work on with leaders is challenging difficult conversations Because to me it's so much of where the rubber hits the road and this idea that ruptures will always There's always going to be interpersonal challenges when we're working with fellow human beings and yet repair for that rupture is always possible It's not guaranteed It's not inevitable but there's a lot of skills that we can build in to do that And so I love talking about it So if you're up for it put you on the spot Like could we could we just role play for a moment Like I almost would love to demonstrate like I can I could be that person I think it'll make more sense for you to use your skills now I'm sure you did your best then but I'm guessing today's conversation would be a little bit different the way you would frame it so is that do you mind doing that for a sec Is that all right
Desiree Perez:no let's let's go for it Not that anybody would say no in this forum right go for
Peter Callahan:can edit it all out if you want to do that So everyone's gonna hear all this but
Desiree Perez:No go for it I'll just call him Jack I don't remember
Peter Callahan:right desire I know you know this is getting it's challenging and in the evenings when we're doing this pre-check so I've I had this idea of of using red cards yellow cards and green cards to just let people know and maybe you know exact some punishment on those who are not behaving So how does that sound Can we can we roll that out tomorrow night
Desiree Perez:I love the idea and I I and I think it's great that you thought of solving for something that we have been struggling with for a while Walk me through how you envision this actually working in real life
Peter Callahan:think I'll I'll just get out there before six o'clock when when people show up and I'll just be walking up and down the lines letting people know what what to expect and what they need to do And if they don't follow along maybe I'll give I'll show them a yellow card like if you this is a warning If you do that again you can't keep stepping outta line or doing whatever If you do that again I'm gonna give you a red card You've gotta go back to the end of the line I think that should be pretty clear for folks What do you think
Desiree Perez:Okay And then you think when they get the red card and have to go back what's the reaction gonna be
Peter Callahan:I don't I don't know I mean they'll probably be a little bit upset but I mean there's there's rules to follow I'm assuming this is Germany So they they understand if you don't follow the rules there are punishments that that are exacted and their whole party will have to go back and that'll really show everyone else in line that they need to stay in line so maybe I'll only have to do it a few times is what I'm thinking
Desiree Perez:Oh leading by example I see Love it okay let's let's reverse the roles a little bit then Let's pretend you are the customer and you pay it a certain amount of money to go on this trip and you're bringing a little bit too much luggage and you really don't wanna pay even more money because you now have excess weight and somebody shows you the red card how would you react to
Peter Callahan:First of all I would never pack my bag overweight I've got a scale at home I mean that's just you know poor planning But uh shoes here and I'm like how empathetic is Jack really Right Because it's our you know ability to be honest about the way we show up So I love that as a question just stepping out of it for a second Like oh I don't know Depends depends on how early it is and uh what I if I had breakfast or maybe is probably my but yeah I I guess I guess going back to Jet like I probably wouldn't be that happy about it
Desiree Perez:Mm-hmm So if you know that how do you think then this is gonna help us solve our customer service issue of people getting upset
Peter Callahan:Yeah I I see what you're saying I mean my my hope would be it would limit the amount of people that would be upset because we'd we'd have more clarity about what proper behavior looks like but I understand that we might then making be making a fewer even more upset at us So I think I do understand to some degree What do you think we should do boss
Desiree Perez:Well I don't know that I have the full solution but if we think about a win-win win perspective so win for the customer win for the airline a win for us what would that look like
Peter Callahan:if I feel good Was there anything anything else that you might add in there Did I not play my role uh as accurately as I could of
Desiree Perez:No No it was perfect I think you know to to summarize it is essentially instead of tearing down this idea which was just not practical like it was just not applicable Lifting up the fact that somebody had an idea and involving them in the problem solving process I don't think we're gonna adopt this idea but what other ideas do you have if you look at it through the lens of a win-win win for everyone
Peter Callahan:And start that great idea but we're not gonna do it because even that like that That that there this is where I love as a tool is just as a men just to have is who don't know improv comedy tool where in improv comedy you need to always agree with what your fellow performer says And that's the first step And I don't love the word agree necessarily in leadership specifically we learned trainings we went through the same coach training with with ipec the Institute for Professional Excellence Coaching And we really learned a lot about validating and or acknowledging so that the Yes to me is I hear you and that's what I heard you do really thoroughly at the beginning I I hear what you're saying me understand more and just to say Desiree I think this a really important point A lot I get a lot of resistance from leaders don't have that much time I need to get this person moving Like no that's not a good idea Here's what we're gonna do instead Or gimme some better ideas Cuz that's not a good one Right And just jumping right to it cuz it saves a couple I mean you and I it was a couple minutes to have that conversation so Yeah So I'm just curious how you think about that that return on investment of taking this extra time
Desiree Perez:Yeah I think the way I share this with the leaders that I work with is in the long run it's a time saving tool because if you can't create the buy-in then people are gonna swim with you What happens if somebody consistently swims upstream and fights whatever you are trying to impose So if you can sort of create that buy-in which you and I both know from a coach perspective buy-in is half the battle If somebody feels like they have a valuable piece in there they're being heard of their idea might be heard even if it's not their original idea or parts of their ideas are being implemented or tweaked and still being utilized That's what keeps people going so that initial time investment yeah it's a time investment but it'll come back to you twofold or threefold In the long run of the relationship
Peter Callahan:there's like hearing that and taking that in and even believing it And then there's Experiencing that actually occurring Right And seeing that happen that's another gap that I come across Is that that sounds great Pete and I generally believe you and it's just not the patterning that I have that's not how I was taught to be a leader It's not what I've seen And like you know I wound up in leadership at a really young age I was 23 was a top salesperson at the fasten all store I was working at So they gave me a location and I was good at my job but I this it's a totally different job to lead it's something completely different to hold the for people and to try and create that buy-in that you're speaking to And it's just so interesting to I guess me into into our conversation of like these skills to this knowledge this wisdom to those who just haven't haven't tried before Um so way to to sort of transition this is but I'm just wondering Now through all these experiences that you've had how you try to meet people where they are knowing that some of this is still very foreign to to leaders and how to start them along journey of trying out a different way this change management terminology that can be so resistant
Desiree Perez:Hmm I think there's two pieces to this one key component is non-judgment I think you know something that I have learned over the years is I don't necessarily wanna know about another person before I meet them because what it does it clubs my judgment And as a coach I'm not here to judge anyone I'm just here to hold space right To meet them where they're at So if I can strip my judgment then I actually have the ability to meet them where they're at Because the reality is everybody is where they're at and most of all cases Because of some sort of experience some sort of belief some sort of perception some sort of assumption that they have either about themselves or about a situation that doesn't let them do what they would like to do or that doesn't let them to the point where they could do something else If you think about it 90% of our behaviors 90% of the things that we do are automatic to us So our brain automatically does them We are not conscious of that So helping people understand where first off help me understand where you're at Help me understand where you're blocked Why is this so hard Heart Then understand what got you there and then What's your choice in all of this Do you wanna continue to perceive it that way Is it working for you Clearly it's not working So then what are other ways to look at this What are other ways to try it out What are things that you think you can do to start moving the needle to make your own life easier So it's that right It's giving the understanding of we call it with them what's in it for me right with them that's in it for me the filter ring that out and then from there being able to pivot But I think my two my two main things are non-judgment and listening
Peter Callahan:Yes absolutely
Desiree Perez:for the things that are not being said
Peter Callahan:listening Yeah absolutely if you have any you've this worked with leader a leader another leader and through sharing some of your own experiences and asking questions Like what's I I guess part of me is curious of times where has well or not gone so well Right Because I've had plenty of clients too who've you know No you know I think I'm all right It's like this is this is fine I'm not really I really like what you're saying about up the choice Like if you don't want to do it differently do you want to do
Desiree Perez:Right Exactly And that's that's exactly it right This is where where choice comes in and I think as as coaches we have part of our work is to challenge people challenge people in a loving way to say I hear you but still You wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't an issue If it wasn't that important why are we talking about it I mean there's plenty of examples where it went well you know generally speaking people that I work with And have worked with in the past are at least open to exploring it and be like ah okay yeah I'll go there and then those that are know resistant to it to your point you challenge that you support and if somebody's truly said on the idea that they didn't wanna change anything I I can't make that happen I I will try I will do but I also respect if somebody says Nope I'm not willing to change anything about that Okay That is the choice that you're making in that point and I'm not here to judge that
Peter Callahan:And as a coach we're able to do that and just hold that space and accept that as a leader this issue becomes a lot stickier and this really makes me think of these feedback conversations and especially accountability holding people accountable I like what folks out there say that you know we all want accountability and don't want accountability at the same time Like I want you to support me and have my back and check in and wanna be able to do what I want And if I don't want to hit an deadline because something I got a better thing to do today than I'd love for you to leave me alone It's it's this real paradox I find for leaders and I've I've kind of been using this term caring accountability just to acknowledge that it's not about being against someone or forcing anyone to do anything Which we can't do anyway holding that reality of like this person is a fully autonomous human being making a choice to work here to continue working for me and not quit And to either get these things done that we've hopefully clearly agreed to and set clear expectations together which is usually the first gap or not Do those things And to your point I love offering up these two foundational leadership questions that really you've already kind of spoke to How are you doing and what do you need and what and how I find are kinda these keywords you can switch'em to what what are you working on and how can I help And then we set these clear expectations and then people and saying how's that going Oh it's going greater I'm behind Okay what do you need What's getting in the way to your point about the blocks right And we can if we do that with consistency it just builds trust and shows we have each other's back and As I say it now it sounds really simple but it can be really sticky and complicated based on the emotional patterning we have how we've been led sort of how we show up So yeah what's coming to your mind is I'm spouting on about this
Desiree Perez:Yeah I think you know to your point yes it becomes so much stickier One thing that I really notice as a threat throughout most of all of my conversations is why are are tough conversations so hard for two reasons One we don't wanna upset people We wanna be liked And two is the perception that we have around having tough conversations Oftentimes I hear clients say well I'm gonna have to have a confrontational conversation Why does it have to be confrontational If we open up a conversation with one do I have permission to share my feedback Right When you ask somebody for permission automatically itar sort of that wall that you might experience that you're probably dreading rightfully so and two to say and we are here to solve this together I wanna hear your perception on this because truth is we all have a different perception therefore different truth of what is actually transpiring in this situation Understanding that and then coming together to say okay again I love that lens of win-win What do we have to do to solve this together and create a win for you and a win for me right And this hey I'm in here with you I'm not telling you what to do but I wanna hear from you what you want to do and how I can support that by going into this collaborative win-win type of approach so those are the two things that you know come to my mind If you listen to this and you say yes absolutely I don't want anybody to dislike me or to see me as the bad person It's normal It's absolutely normal and we all struggle with that So we just have to look at we are not the bad people when we give that feedback It's all about how we deliver it And the other thing that I also always say is if we don't provide the feedback we are robbing people out of a development opportunity Because we don't always see it ourselves So in that moment we are taking away from a development opportunity of somebody else
Peter Callahan:It's like this concept that every problem every challenge contains gifts or opportunities Sometimes we see it and feel it in the moment Sometimes we have reflect on it later Sometimes we have no idea You know And yet yeah I think you and I both believe that that can be true for each situation And it reminds me of the definition too of sort of being brave I'm constantly trying to share this with with Clare my daughter of you know what does it what does it mean to be brave It means to be scared and to keep going anyway Right To keep moving Not that we need fear very useful in certain situations but in many situations like oh I'm a little nervous I'm a little scared to do this and yet it still feels like the right thing to do or What's needed with it's gonna fill one of my needs so I'm gonna keep find my courage Right There's no such thing as courage without fear
Desiree Perez:That's what goes through my head constantly You mentioned earlier Adapting to a new job and that's what I tell myself Feel the fear and do it anyway And it's fine It's totally fine I acknowledge my nervousness and my fear and I do it anyway and the results are good things will un unfold And this is where we have to challenge ourselves too to walk to talk right We challenge our our clients on those things so we have to do the same to us to ourselves
Peter Callahan:normal need of wanting to be liked as social creatures who survived for millennia by supporting each other by having each other's backs and keeping each safe And I love the perspective and some of this comes from internal family systems that like there are parts of us that are have been created to protect us that come out in situation certain situations that actually harm our ability to connect or hold us back And I love that as lens because it helps me Lower my judgment of first myself and then of others to say everyone is doing their best to be supportive and collaborative and get their job done You know we all fundamentally have the same needs that we're trying to meet and yet we just have different ways of going about it And very few people just like very few parents wake up in the morning how can I screw my kids up today for people like oh how can I you know make my boss's day worse or make my own job harder being resistant to things right We're all doing our best and there's understandable things getting in the way So we don't have to be each other's therapists to create some amount of space just check in like Hey what's going on Help me understand there's the phrase you know it's hard to hate up close The more understanding we get the more we can soften our own stories that we're telling about this other person and hopefully create some space To collaborate the way you're describing and really find a way to work together And that to say I don't think every person is meant to work together And there are probably there are times I think when all right it's our our ways of operating in the world Our styles of communication just are not we're not finding a way to do it There're certainly a to me is a point where it's all right It doesn't make sense to keep trying But I think so few leaders still have the skills that you're describing that we're talking about here to even get to that point To me we almost never need a performance improvement plan if we're having skillful leadership conversations along the way and we might get to a point where Hey let's let's agree that this just isn't working out and if you can't with the accountability if you can't get these things done we've tried a bunch of different ways Maybe we can find a different role within the organization or how can I support you in finding a different job somewhere else while we transition respectfully and smoothly into someone else doing this job And that obviously that can be as hard as it gets but it's much more respectful compassionate than well I've I've tried to tell you to do all these things over and over again You're not doing them We put you on a performance improvement plan You didn't get much better So you're fired Like there's just so many other ways of doing it
Desiree Perez:Yeah absolutely Yeah It's I think you know this is what fascinates me about all of this is that the depths of human behavior are incredible They are fascinating to me you know and then that all on a journey and the realization that we actually will never get to a goal but it's a lifelong journey of of growth of reflection of all of those things I'm a very goal-driven person so I've always thought oh when I get to this then that and when I get to this then that no it never stops you know and accepting our journey as that as a journey of self Discovery as a journey of growth that a journey of I might not do everything right but I will learn from it as a recovering perfectionist always oh yes I can't make any mistakes Well guess what That's not working So accepting the fact that I will not be perfect and embracing Who I am right In my in my way so I think that you know really that also oftentimes the perfectionism is such a big piece and having these tough conversations and so many pieces of being leaders knowing that we are on a life Jo Long journey or a lifelong quest however you wanna call it and being in from the long haul and being in for the right and there's No need to rush anywhere
Peter Callahan:Yes Thank you
Desiree Perez:And I say that as I'm a person that's always like I gotta get here I gotta do this
Peter Callahan:Non-rival like how do I acknowledge except there's nowhere get to I'll not be more happy when I get this or that Right It's an internal Process and you're invoking as you often do so much Brene Brown here the Gifts of Imperfection was one of her early books that I love and also so much of message is around the power of vulnerability and it's just making me think of to open these conversations as leaders with I don't have all the answers I think three of the most powerful words we can utter as a leader is I don't know And come back to the Yes and and I have faith in you I have faith in me I trust I have confidence Humble confidence don't know and I believe that we can get through this that there is a win-win to be found within this situation to just talking about letting letting down the defenses the guards to start a conversation with Just I'm not exactly sure what to do I'm a little stuck especially maybe for a new leader or manager I've never been in this situation before and I care about you or whatever's sincere and you know I'm in this with you like you were saying like we're we're in this process together so I'm open I want to under help me understand and I want to find a way for us to work together and to get these things done that we've been asked to do and to let you also live a human life and be with your family and not have to be here until 10 o'clock every night whatever it is like just uttering what we want and and acknowledging we don't know I think can create so much more space for honesty and connection
Desiree Perez:Absolutely Yeah And I think that's one of the biggest things that I see too I have to have all the answers because I'm a leader Oh you don't That's why you're Hi hire People that are different from you with different skill sets so that they can bring you the answers the truth is it took me forever to figure that out
Peter Callahan:quit I quit that early leadership was talking about because I started it went okay for a couple months and then it was so clear that I had no idea what I was doing. And I had people older than me working for me and some younger and I just had no concept or model for how to do this. And I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I know I'm dropping the ball bad. So, and it kind of set me on this journey to learn and study more and eventually become a coach and like help others be in this process cuz it is. Very challenging but extremely meaningful if we called to be of service, to care for others in that way. I mean, it's, it's a lot of responsibility and it's kind of insane on some level to be a leader, and yet think the rewards can be immense as well. So, any, any final thoughts, Desiree, any questions that I didn't ask or things come to mind? I feel like again, we're coming in for a really smooth landing. It's a beautifully steady approach. I appreciate it.
Desiree Perez:I dunno. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I think, my, my final thoughts were those around. this is a lifelong journey and to accept it as such. And, it's also a reminder to myself. So, I appreciate your, your time, Peter, and for, for having me. This was a great conversation
Peter Callahan:So mutual and wishing you well in this next chapter of your journey and very much looking forward to Keeping in Thanks a lot
All right. so grateful again to you Deseret. And do. do each of Have you for being with us for this conversation on the fresh perspectives podcast If you enjoyed it and found it useful i would be really appreciative if you'd be willing to take a moment to subscribe Uh, for any feedback And most importantly Share it with a friend if you think they might benefit from listening Thanks so much for your curiosity Wishing you courage and compassion Be well