Resources for Living and Parenting in This Moment | Amanda Votto

I am so grateful to Amanda for joining me for this conversation!  Please check out her website to learn more or reach out:  https://amandavotto.com/.

Thank you for being here. Please subscribe and share if you feel called, and reach out anytime at https://www.fp-ct.org/

Transcript

Amanda Votto: 0:03

and so I was, you know, take on some responsibility for the wellbeing of my kids and for my patients and my marriage and the house, and. I really didn't put myself in that, which I think is a common thing that most of us do. didn't put myself in that circle of care and compassion, and I was tired. I felt really lost. I was physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted and lost where like that anxiety was taking over and there was nothing. I felt like there was sort of no net to catch me and it was a. That was a very, scary part. It did not feel good. And That's when I started to turn to mindfulness

Peter Callahan: 0:53

Hello and welcome to the fresh perspectives podcast. Where our intention. Is growing together and leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan. And I believe we each have incredible capacity. To continue to learn and evolve. As individuals and. And as a species and bring way more love and a lot less fear. Into the world and our daily lives. Changing can be hard. And I found that even if nothing changes. Having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective can change everything. I'm so glad you're here. And I'm so excited to share with you today. This conversation with my friend Amanda vAuto. Amanda is a passionate teacher of mindfulness who believes we can all live an intentional, inspired, and compassionate life. And you may already know that I completely agree. She teaches a variety of mindfulness courses, including the eight week mindfulness based stress reduction course. M B S R mindful. Self-compassion. And she also leads retreats workshops and offers private coaching. Amanda is also a physician's assistant specializing in cardiology for the past 20 years. And she recently received her board certification in hypnotherapy as well. Amanda lives in Connecticut with her husband and two wonderful teenage children. And in our conversation today, you will hear, you heard a little bit at the top, but you'll hear Amanda share. Some stories of her journey and each of our journeys, really through mindfulness and meditation, as well as some discussion on silent retreats, which I don't think we've talked about too much yet, but are near and dear to me. Amanda bravely shares her journey with anxiety and being highly sensitive. How she found and really the theme, I think in many ways of this conversation, the resources and her approach to finding these resources and continuing to. open up to different modes, different mediums and ways. Of of growing and healing and working with what she was experiencing just as. Again, kind of our theme of, of this whole podcast. How do we keep caring for ourselves so we can care for each other? And a part of that is also self-compassion. So we really. We Talk about self-compassion and Talk a little bit about parts therapy and meeting are different parts with gratitude so without further ado let's jump in with amanda Keep it here so thanks so much for being here with me today, Amanda.

Amanda Votto: 3:40

that is my pleasure.

Peter Callahan: 3:42

Awesome. Maybe we could take a few mindful breaths together if it feels good. Yeah. And It honestly feels extra special to be getting to have this conversation with you today, Amanda, because you were my very first in person. Meditation, mindfulness teacher, and I just, yeah, still remember, The Copper Beach Institute in West Hartford. And as I was early on in my mindfulness journey, going to their annual fundraiser and To be honest, seeing you and Mike, your husband, as some of the only folks you know, maybe under 50 or 60 that were in the room, And not that, you know, that's totally fine, but I know my wife Mackenzie and I kind of gravitated over to the table with you both say, oh good. We're not

Amanda Votto: 4:39

Yes.

Peter Callahan: 4:39

only youngest folks here. So, and then wound up taking mindfulness-based stress reduction with you the following year. And then we've, we've gotten to work together for, for many years now, and I'm just So grateful to to you for all this service to the world you've been doing and specifically in my life. So it's really meaningful to get to share some of you with the world in this way.

Amanda Votto: 5:00

Thank you so much. It is fun to look back and see. Like the beginning stages of, like you said, meeting, and then the class and, and then just how our relationship has evolved over time and being able to work together and that it's been really powerful some of the work that we have done together and brought to other companies. Right. All started from just that meeting and then you taking the class and then it just sort of evolved from there. And I'm very grateful as well.

Peter Callahan: 5:31

Yeah. Thank you Thank you. And you and Mike are inspirations for Mackenzie and I of the, you know, having a, having a boy and girl and you being, you know, whatever. It may be a half generation ahead of us and

Amanda Votto: 5:45

Yeah. Don't make me that old. Uh, no, no, but it's true. Cause Michael's 15 and, Olivia's 13, so that's, you know, I, I know exactly. The stage that you and Mackenzie are in and it, there are so many beautiful parts to it and there's so many parts. I was like, oh God, this is really hard.

Peter Callahan: 6:04

Yes. Yes, I think we'd both be on the same page here, that life in general is often really hard and a big. Part for me, one of the things you really taught me, one of the words that has really stayed with me since probably our very first class in the eight week mindfulness-based stress reduction is allowing,

Amanda Votto: 6:26

Yeah.

Peter Callahan: 6:27

and just being with our experience, quote unquote, good or bad, and just allowing ourselves to, to feel whatever sensations we're feeling and that it's whatever we're experiencing and going through is okay. Certainly one of the main messages that I'm trying to come back to in my parenting, however successfully.

Amanda Votto: 6:51

Yes, yes, for sure. I think that allowing is something that, you know, I had to learn as well and it was such a, so impactful for me to be in that stage of, of allowing life to be as it is, not cling me to the good and not pushing away the bad. Um, especially I feel like. Just with parenting in general and having children in general, like we, I don't know. I at least had this idea that it's like, oh, you know, it's, you have the babies and it's so fun and like this idealized version of like having a family and everything. I don't know. I mean, I knew it wasn't going to be all easy, but it just, Uh, I don't know. I wasn't prepared for the challenges, right. That that came along the way, and so I had to really learn ways of shifting my perspective, being, you know, understanding the story that I was telling myself, dropping expectations like that. Really the catalyst for that was when I had kids, for sure.

Peter Callahan: 7:58

All right. Right. Okay. Yeah. so maybe that as a good segue into just some of your journey to whatever degree you're willing to share or feels, feels useful. But you did not start out as a wise and grounded mindfulness instructor and you know. experienced parent. Of course, none of us, none of us start to as, as an experienced parent. But I guess I'm curious to hear if you're up for maybe some of the moments in your life that sort of brought you to this work and just to who you are today.

Amanda Votto: 8:33

Yeah. so right to start off, I would say as a, growing up as a child, very sensitive child, very. I feel like, aware of the challenges of the world and the, the sufferings and to like an extent where I was very anxious, as a child a lot. but I also had a very strong belief in God and spiritual connection even as a child. So I definitely know a hundred percent that's what got me through because. It was challenging, I think for those that relate to being very, sensitive, To being just aware of other people's suffering like that empath, that it is, it's hard to navigate that world. and especially if those around you maybe aren't as in that, in that same way, it In some ways can make you make, you know, me grow up feeling like, ugh. why can't I just be

Peter Callahan: 9:35

Get along.

Amanda Votto: 9:36

Why? Yeah. Well, or like, why do things touch me so deeply? Why am I like so anxious about this? Why am I so worried about, about this? Why do I feel like other people's pain? Um, and I didn't necessarily understand that. Um, but I had a very strong. Connection with God and my spirituality. I feel like that is what really guided me along. the way, and I wanted to help others and be of service. And I am a physician assistant, and I've been practicing for 20 years now, but I really was driven into the healthcare field to help others. I love science. I love, you know, learning about the body and, and also that connection with others. So, You know, that led me in that direction. And then when I got married and had kids, I feel like my focus became very much, on. The kids and balancing raising, you know, two small children. My, my job as a pa, my husband was, leaving his job that he had and starting his own company. So there was so much that was. Evolving and changing, and it was just a huge transition in my life and I felt like my anxiety overtook me at that time. Like that connection, that spiritual connection, that I had all along the anxiety was louder than that at that point. Whereas I feel like my whole time growing up, I had, I could always sort of ground in my spirituality even though I was nervous. I had this like place to fall and when I got. I think life just got really busy for me and I couldn't find that grounding and I felt very anxious and very overwhelmed, and I tend to take on so much responsibility. and so I was, you know, take on some responsibility for the wellbeing of my kids and for my patients and my marriage and the house, and. I really didn't put myself in that, which I think is a common thing that most of us do. didn't put myself in that circle of care and compassion, and I was tired. I felt really lost. I was physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted and lost where like that anxiety was taking over and there was nothing. I felt like there was sort of no net to catch me and it was a. That was a very, scary part. It did not feel good.

Peter Callahan: 12:10

Yes. Thank you So much for sharing. Tired and Lost with No Nets to catch you Yes, I I'm, I know, we are not alone. I have certainly felt that way and I think that amount of suffering brings many of us to open up an app and press play on some weird podcast called Fresh Perspectives about growth and love, and hopefully sends us in some direction to continue to discern what might be of service to us, how to support ourselves and ultimately to meet each other. It's a big piece of it. Cause I know you do, you know, group teaching as well as individual coaching I guess part of me's curious too, just for a moment, cuz I haven't really asked you this before either, it's just my own curiosity of the environment you grew up in. So you said you grew up Christian and you were aware and aware of this anxiety for sure. And your sensitivity and just care for other humans in the world. And, and you were in Massachusetts, right? So you, you started in Massachusetts, wound up being down to your own Hoboken. I always think of that for some reason you and Mike starting life down in

Amanda Votto: 13:19

That was grad school.

Peter Callahan: 13:20

New Jersey. Um, but yeah, like what was your, like home environment like? I'm just curious just what stands out to you. I've still got you.

Amanda Votto: 13:33

Sorry. A call came in so

Peter Callahan: 13:35

It happens.

Amanda Votto: 13:36

it, it switched to my AirPods, I Just hung up on, on the call, so. Okay. We're good. Um,

Peter Callahan: 13:43

I'll keep it all in. Just for fun. Let's.

Amanda Votto: 13:46

so my sister and I, My sister's two years older than me and my parents, so it was the four of us growing up. and it, we were a close family. definitely, I grew up going to Catholic school, so I went through from kindergarten through 12th grade. My high school was an all girls Catholic school. Um, but I lived in a very small town and You know, I didn't go to school in my town cause I didn't go to public school. I went, you know, to the private school. So, but even still, like my bubble was very small. It was just, you know, just my family, my friends, And we didn't travel a ton. so life was very comfortable and it was just, don't know, there was predictability and safety and it was comfortable and I wouldn't say either one of my parents are really like sensitive, empathic, I mean, they were very supportive and nurturing. as best as they could be. But I had this. Very sensitive side of me, and it just never, I feel like it was never understood. it was never validated. It was only like minimized, you know, like, oh, you're sensitive, or Why are you worried about that? Just let it go or it was, never celebrated, ever. it was definitely not understood and there's no fault there because I feel like if. if. You aren't that way, right? Then you then it's hard to relate to someone that necessarily is

Peter Callahan: 15:13

Of course, of course. And it's this, to me, this lens of trusting, especially with our parents, that we're all doing our absolute best based on our level of understanding and judging and blaming. As much as I'm still working on letting some of that go in myself, I deeply trust is the most useful and accurate sort of perspective way we can relate to our parents. I certainly hope my kids are able to, to some

Amanda Votto: 15:40

Yeah. Right. We're all humans and we all have our flaws and we all are working, you know, to the best of our ability in that moment. And so, yeah, so then I, then I, went to, college and I. I just wanted to go outside of Massachusetts. I wanted to leave, um, the state. I have no idea why, but I just wanted to explore something different. So I went to college in New York. I went to grad school in New Jersey. I did a semester abroad in Italy. So I really was like pushing myself, out of that comfort zone. But it was really uncomfortable because I was from the small place where I really didn't do a lot of things outside of it. And now I was. You know, constantly pushing myself, which I was really proud of, that I had the courage to do that and didn't, sit back and listen to the anxiety again. It was because of my strong faith. I think I was able to do that. But then I think, when, life was like fun, you're like in college and then, I was. In Italy studying and then I was, in grad school and then got married and there's always something fun and looking forward to, and then you have kids and then all of a sudden life sort of It catches our eye, caught up with it. Cause I'm like, oh wait, what? All of these, these years have gone by and now I'm like home with the two toddlers and I don't live in the place that I grew up anymore. I live in a different state. I don't have, I. Necessarily the same support as I did, like my friends and my family. and now I'm here and my husband's working a lot and I'm taking care of the kids and I'm working and it's like, oh my God. Everything sort of becomes real at that point. And That's when I started to turn to mindfulness and I knew that I had the tools within myself. I knew that I did, I knew that I needed guidance, but I knew that it still came from within me, the, you know, guidance for the tools and therapy and all of that. But I knew that the healing came within me. But what I didn't know was that I was like opening up Pandora's Box. I was just like, I just wanna get this anxiety under control. I just wanna feel like myself again. But I had no idea that I was embarking on a huge self-discovery, healing journey, including like that anxious part of me that was never, Given space, and all different parts of me. And now it's like, oh.

Peter Callahan: 18:10

Yes.

Amanda Votto: 18:10

far do you go, you

Peter Callahan: 18:12

Uh, how far do you go? I think this is such an important piece. Just pause on for a moment because I've had this experience in myself many times over these last 10, really 15 years since I've been intentionally taking in this messaging from the world, starting with kind of like the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People was one of my early doorways and Red Eckhart totally pretty early on too. And just there's so many audiobooks were a huge help for me and there's so many pads people can take as we kinda referenced earlier, to start to do this work. But I think this point of, as we start to have the courage and have the intention to turn toward ourselves, our inner selves and our challenges, It doesn't just get lighter and easier. It's pretty much the opposite for most people. Like, all right, great. I'm gonna put some time and energy. All right. I'm gonna focus my resources and do some healing. Why do I feel worse right now? Like why? There's just, there's a lot of, you know, the, the, the dark cave is often referenced, And our shadows and just these wounds you spoke to. A huge part of my experience growing up was not feeling seen and understood

Amanda Votto: 19:19

Mm-hmm.

Peter Callahan: 19:20

was not my parents' intention, it's just what occurred. And it created a lot of wounds in me that have been fascinating and challenging to begin to understand and explore and learn to relate differently to, if, you know, I know, I'm not sure I believe in total healing, but doing some degree of, of healing those wounds and turning toilet and how challenging it can be. Yeah. What, so how, how did you start? What was, what was the, what were the early steps for you?

Amanda Votto: 19:50

Yeah. Well, okay. first I, I, it's like I

Peter Callahan: 19:55

Sure. Please, please.

Amanda Votto: 19:57

just cuz I don't want like people listening and be like, oh my God, What, am I doing?

Peter Callahan: 20:01

Thank you.

Amanda Votto: 20:02

go there? Which is not because I would not, I would not change anything at all. and I think that when we are ready to do certain levels of healing, like we're prepared, right? and. we have the resources, the places that I am healing within me or meeting within me now is not where, you know, a couple years ago I would've, cuz I, didn't have the resources then. But I would say the benefit is something that, there's no word you, I can't put a word on it. So that's why. I just wanna insert that there. And so it's not to be afraid to do the work at all. It's not to be afraid to get to know who you are. yes, there's parts of ourselves that we maybe have been avoiding cuz we just don't understand them, So there is that fear there because we don't understand and we're afraid of what we might find. But there really is nothing to fear, even. that part that's afraid is just a part of ourselves, right? And so the more that we. Have curiosity and the more that we are seeking to understand ourselves, the greater the love that we experience and the acceptance that we experience and, and it makes all of the challenges just like this abundance of gratitude for them because that's how, you know, we've really learned who we are.

Peter Callahan: 21:17

Thank you. Yeah, it's

Amanda Votto: 21:19

Okay, so, um, how like it started Is that what you

Peter Callahan: 21:25

Well, I was thinking it could be helpful and again, I really appreciate you calling that out, And it speaks to what you're saying before, is that you, had the sense that I have everything that I need already. It's just opening myself up to what's already in me. and so I think that matches perfectly with what you said, and I was just curious just to hear a little bit more about some of the initial entry points for you as you, cause the first step is always awareness, Oh, there, there is an issue here. I am feeling overwhelmed. This anxiety is impacting my life in ways that are worth putting energy into, because this doesn't feel sustainable right, now. So I'm just curious what you did in

Amanda Votto: 22:03

So, That's when I started to turn to mindfulness and I found out about mindfulness, so being in the medical field, there was some studies about it and I always am open to just a holistic approach to health. And so I started hearing about mindfulness and meditation and it helping with overall wellness and then I had actually a therapist that I saw before I moved here and whatnot, the like when I was first. Child, just to transition into motherhood. And she had introduced some mindfulness recordings to me and they were really helpful. So when sort of things. Got really, you know, I got like really anxious and just ungrounded. I reached for that mindfulness, which I, you sort of planted. And then it was at Yale, mindfulness based stress reduction course. I took that. As a participant, really no intention at all of ever teaching. I just wanted to come up for air, you know, so I took the myself learning, meditation, practicing mindfulness, and then, Continuing for, at least a year or so after. And then I remember like really feeling I had that resource that awareness, to a place where I didn't have to get like totally sucked in with the anxiety. Totally sucked in with the anxious or dark thoughts or whatever was there that I had the space. And it was, it really felt empowering and. I wanted to learn more. So then I went to do like teacher training, but still never with the intention of teaching. I just wanted to learn it better for myself. And it really was, it was life changing, That's when I learned about building that awareness, being in the present moment. and, like graduated I still was like, I don't know if I'm gonna teach this, but, You know, it's really impactful. And then it was like divine because then I met, Brandon Nappy, the founder of Copper Beach, and he needed an MB SR teacher. And I was like, all right, I'll try it. I'll just see if I don't like it, I don't have to keep doing it. I had to keep giving myself an out. And then I started teaching it and I loved it, and that helped me, to understand it even better when I was teaching it and living it So that was my entry point. Mindfulness was so important and then I needed to deepen even more. Okay. There were places me that yes, I was aware and I could, you know, I didn't know how to then work with, So like I could be anxiety. Oh, the anxious thought. Okay. And then come back to the present moment, a little bit and it was beautiful and it helped and it was so good, but I wanted to even. And that's when I started to do the self-compassion training. So now I also got trained in mindful self-compassion. That's also a funny story too, because I signed up for a retreat. it was a prerequisite to keep up my mindfulness based stress reduction teacher training going. So I signed up for it just cuz it fit into the schedule that I could do with young kids. And it ended up being a mindful self-compassion retreat, which I was like, okay, whatever. Like it's mainly silence, so we'll just do it. But it was so amazing and just really, different flair to it than what I had experienced. sort of opened me up to the self-compassion journey and really it didn't feel stark. Not that that's what mindfulness does at all, but that was my experience. I needed direct. Piece so that I really could be able to, the understanding in some of the self excavation.

Peter Callahan: 25:49

Yes, absolutely the power of self-compassion. It reminds me of Brene Brown's book, the Gifts of Imperfection, which I know perfectionism has been a challenge for you as well as it has been for me. And, and then Kristen Neff is kind of with Chris Germer, sort of a, one of the founders of this movement of mindful self-compassion. And like you, I think some of the research has helped bring me along. I also am open and somewhat skeptical, like having things that are evidence-based can help me commit a little bit more deeply and, and maybe sort of move through the more challenging, cheesy moments of like, let me send myself these good vibes and love. That's really tough to do and that's where often many teachers start. Well, let's send it to someone easy, either a pet or a loved one who there's not a lot of complexity around so that we can begin to access this warmth as you're speaking to. And I have found it totally life-changing and to me it's really for most of us in our culture, An essential first step into this healing work is understanding kind of a, as we were referencing before, we all come by what we come by. Honestly, we're all doing our best to be good humans, good colleagues, good partners, good parents. and it's really hard and we've been conditioned in a lot of different ways and Bene Brown speaks to sort of stripping off this armor, sort of trying to let down our guard and open ourselves up many people and bringing trauma into the conversation as well. Have just grown up in environments where it was just completely unsafe to let down your guard and to put down your armor. And you know that that's not the experience you were describing. I don't feel like it was mine either. Completely. And yet we all have some level of those experiences where we're not a allowed, given the space. We don't feel the psychological safety or

Amanda Votto: 27:41

Right, right, It may not have been in like the, a situation that most people think about, right. Where it's like, right. your guard. There could be like life and death, um, but it doesn't, I. It doesn't have to be physically right. There's that fear of not belonging, right? If I show somebody who I am, then that being shunned by others or right there, there's that fear too.

Peter Callahan: 28:06

Yes, exactly,

Amanda Votto: 28:07

Yeah. So I think. For me, that was one of the things I was coming up against with mindfulness, is that there was still this really, really critical piece within myself, a lot of, self-criticism, judgment, perfectionism, and that was the biggest step is to be aware of what is working. Underneath and to see okay, I have a strong inner critic or Right. But then what do I do with that? How just being aware of it and not giving voice to it only takes so far not giving into that and letting your mind run off into criticism. Yes. but then making room for the compassion, I feel like helps. To understand where some of those places within us come from, right? That, that self-criticism is actually protection, right? That, that self-criticism and that voice like, oh, you know, don't do that. You're gonna fail, or, you know, don't show your vulnerability. What if they leave? Right? It's, it's protecting us from abandonment, from failure, From Being rejected, unloved. But that's not necessarily the case, right We're adults now? and we can make decisions and take risks. and so that's really, you know, understanding that self-criticism and perfectionism where it was stemming from and really being able to. explore it with curiosity and, and with really trying to understand opened up, It opened up a whole different world, within me, right?

Peter Callahan: 29:47

Yes. Yeah, that curiosity. And so you started, you had the seeds planted, so you'd done some therapy. So there's one practical, just having this third party outside perspective supporting you, asking questions that planted some of these seeds for mindfulness and then you wound up in this eight week course, which I don't think either of us could recommend more highly, is just a really helpful structure. And doorway. It is, tends to be two, two and a half hours once a week for eight weeks. So it's a bit of a commitment, but in my experience, the roi, the return on investment. It was literally life changing for me, Granted, I got to, have you as a teacher. not everyone will get to work with Amanda Vato, so it might depend on your instructor, But many wonderful humans and, and then you took this path, which a lot of, people feel drawn to do. It's amazing how many people I've heard sort of being at Copper Beach for so many years, go through this eight week course and then feel immediately drawn like, I need to be. sharing this with more people in the world. And you still weren't sure, but you did that teacher training, which I actually did the first part of as well. I didn't go through and graduate, but I did the next eight weeks. And I also went on silent retreat. And I'm curious, since we, I haven't talked about it yet on the podcast, maybe you could describe a little bit your retreat experiences. What is a mindfulness retreat? There's lots of different versions, but just the ones you've been on and what, what that's Like

Amanda Votto: 31:05

so the ones that I have been on have been silent, um, anywhere from five to seven days, which sounds crazy and I know like people that are listening that you know. Don't meditate or have a daily practice, but I've never done anything like a retreat. That sounds insane. And that's what honestly, when I learned about the teacher training path and that one of the prerequisites was doing this retreat, I'm like, what, how on earth is that gonna happen? I don't have five days like, How could I vanish? Like I, I am the most important person ever. If I leave right, nothing's going to run smoothly in my family. That was an amazing lesson, Because that was a story that I was telling myself that I had to keep it all together. That was the one that, had to, you know, manage the kids in the house and blah, blah, blah. All this stuff. But I really wanted to explore. I was curious enough, so I did it and the world kept going and the kids were great, and my husband did amazing. And I left for five days. I went in Massachusetts to, insight Meditation Society, i m s, and. First of all, I was shocked because when I even signed up, there was a wait list. I'm like, what? There are really this many people wanting to go to a silent retreat. Then I get in and I go there and there was like over a hundred people. Which blew my mind because this, that world I just was not part of. I had no idea that people were doing this and they could escape from their life and do that. I mean, that's such a privilege to be able to, to do that. So the first time my kids were young, I think three and five, when I, when I went on my five day, that was very hard for me, very hard to leave them. It took, ugh, probably it took more than half of the retreat for me to let all of those fears and anxieties about me not being there, go. And then it was really a beautiful experience. it really was. It was so just insightful and I learned so much in those five days. Than I think I did like in the year before doing my classes. It was just so powerful to sit in silence and, I just learned so much about myself. built so much trust in myself that I could do it. Witnessed so many, it felt so many different emotions throughout the time and just let them be. it was really healing. And then I did. Another one that was seven days. That one was challenging too, but I had already done one, so I kind of knew what I was in for. But still, you know, it's still hard to be with yourself for seven days and not have any contact with anybody. So I have not done one in a while. And, I do, I would like to do one. So hopefully within the next year I'm going to get myself on retreat cuz I do feel like it's very, replenishing and it just, I don't know, it's a jumpstart like to really getting me. I mean, I'm already on, I already meditate a lot and do my work, but I just feel like it takes it a little deeper.

Peter Callahan: 34:29

Totally. That's a really interesting point of this paradox a little bit in me too, of, well, I am enough and I can keep growing. I've heard there's a zen roshi that you're you're perfect the way you are and you could use a little improvement. Just holding both these and feeling to me, this is one of the reasons that I love meditation practice and one of the greatest challenges for me is trying to let go of as much of the conditioning and the messages that I've taken in over 36 years of life and try and actually listen this, the cheesy way of saying it listen to my heart, Really listen to my intuition, my authenticity and trust where I feel drawn and called to. And I'm just getting back, few weeks ago I went on a seven day retreat at Insight Meditation Society. So there's lots of other retreat centers that tends to be both of our favorite one. I think. I love going up there, it's wonderful place and great woods to go hiking in as well. And. to our conversation earlier, I came back and then ha, we had our second child, our son, leaner two weeks later, which in retrospect was not the most skillful decision on my part. I really went at that time cause there was a teacher I wanted to go see or in. So r and I wanted to have the retreat before there was another child here. So it was the longest I'd been away from my daughter Claire. And I trusted between Mackenzie, my wife and grandma, who we live with and others there there'd be enough support and yet it really cracked me open in a lot of beautiful ways. It wasn't as challenging as some of my past retreats have been, or as uncomfortable, and yet I was far more sensitive than I realized. As every teacher warns you about at the end of a treat, like you're going to be really sensitive and your heart's more open. Especially this was a meta or loving kindness retreat. So I spent seven days sending myself and all beings love. And to your point from earlier, I came back into a world where that's not the energy that we're all living in all the time. As much as I'd like it to be. And I'm hoping this podcast makes that true. Of course, that's my main intention. But, but to be able to discern as you were just speaking to what's right for me next, like how am I doing right now and where am I feeling drawn? Where am I feeling called? And how to go about sort of holding these, tensions, these paradoxes, and making a decision as to what do I want to commit to and continue to move toward without letting go of everything else in my life and just becoming a monk. Cause that isn't

Amanda Votto: 37:06

No thanks. Cause that's not what I'm called to either. And I think it's, sometimes it's important to recognize that there are periods of confusion too, Even on Even on this path, we can get these great insights and we can feel really inspired and, teach or just do whatever it is that we just feel inspired and alive. And then we can go through periods where we're just like, Ugh, I don't know what my next step is. And can we also make space for that too, And trust that there, there will be clarity at some point, but we just. Keep doing what we're doing. Um, and even if Someone's going through a hard time. the trust that that is also right. That's just the, their, your moment and where you're, where you're at right now, and that it actually could be the biggest catalyst. You know, if I had been able to tell myself years ago when I really felt that ungrounded lost, like anxiety took over, if I would've been able to tell myself at that point, hold on tight. There's a beautiful. Life that is coming, You're gonna have to work for it, but it's coming. And you know, I think honoring whatever space we're in now, even if it's not where we want to be or even Just that there's always a purpose, for it. And we just set our intention and just keep moving forward.

Peter Callahan: 38:29

Faith asks that faith that we are on the path and just keep doing our best. And I'm hearing you sort of speak to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge, and I find it really challenging still to be okay. Not being okay. I work with a meditation coach. It's been a little over a year now. I've been working with Ray Houseman is her name. She is wonderful. Actually lived at Insight Meditation Society for a while, and just a deep practitioner and wonderful person. And one of our early sessions I was describing how challenging I was finding, you know, a certain relationship and situations in my life that in most ways is absolutely beautiful and I'm incredibly grateful. And yet these challenges come up. I get frustrated. I want things to be different. I want people to act differently than they are. And I was describing this to Ray and she said to me, I'll never forget. She's like, yeah, Pete, it sounds like you really don't like when things are unpleasant.

Amanda Votto: 39:30

Yeah, who

Peter Callahan: 39:31

I's like, yeah, I, I'm a human. Um, let's, do you Have any other insight? For me, it's just to be able to, you know, we, this cliche comes up all the time, get comfortable being uncomfortable, and yet I still find Amanda after a long time of practice, hopefully a long way to go, but that it's, there's still a bunch of resistance in me. I don't want, I just want to feel happy And good all the time. And I can get frustrated even with the awareness that it's, I have the cognitive awareness. Yeah, it's okay. I'm feeling anxious, angry, frustrated, exhausted, whatever it is. And that's okay. And I'm allowed, to, and as long as I survive through the night, I will wake up tomorrow and get to try again. And I'm curious how you work with that, or if you find you're just always at peace with the discomfort that you're experiencing.

Amanda Votto: 40:22

at all. yeah, so I had mentioned that I went. To therapy years ago, but I also am doing therapy now with, ifs, so internal family systems. And that has been really helpful because it's like parts therapy, And I think when we recognize different parts of ourselves, so this part that like wants things to always be good. We can recognize of course. Why wouldn't we? Who would want to invite in on discomfort and chaos in their lives? Nobody, of course. So recognizing that and sort of surrendering to what is right. So I think that's where my faith comes in as well, and. people maybe that don't have strong faith or spirituality, I do think that this path grows it anyway. Right. I do think it grows even if it's not, God or whatever, like it could just be a greater power something else, right. We have faith that this moment, is what it is, That we, that we can't control everything. and yes, of course there's a part of us that wants things to go smoothly and to feel good. Yeah, right. Invalidating that part of ourselves. But then there also is this bigger, like self energy, this bigger part of us that knows that no matter what we're feeling in this moment that. We are connected and whole, and we can, you know, ride all the different waves. Mm-hmm. But it is challenging To, I don't know. My, my biggest challenges is kids stuff. Like, for me it's like, so hard. No matter how, you know, mindful And grounded I can be if Something's up with the kids or they're upset, whatever. I'm like, whew. It just throws me for a loop And I have to come back to okay. Trusting in myself, trusting in them, trusting in a greater power, that, There's reasons for things that maybe we don't understand, but we can trust in that.

Peter Callahan: 42:28

Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm curious if you're, if you're open to it, it might be helpful to hear just a real life kids example here, because even from my perspective, you have two of the most amazing human beings, Michael and Olivia, who you are raising and did a little bit that I've gotten to know each of them, and so I'm just curious Yeah. What's come up. Maybe some, some situation that you're willing to share

Amanda Votto: 42:51

Ah, let me see so my son is, so he's 15. He's very, confident and he, he wants to be like, I don't wanna say like good at everything, but he just tries, So he does really well at school, and I think it's coming from an authentic place. I don't think it's like perfectionism, which was. Yeah, which was a lot of,

Peter Callahan: 43:14

wondering that. Yeah.

Amanda Votto: 43:16

I was a straight A student, like president of my class. Like there was a lot of like, sort of something else behind it. There was authentic for a hundred percent, but there was also, some else behind it. And for him, there could be something else behind it too. But I do feel like it's, he is very, confident in who he is and so, Yeah, so I think it's, it is his first year of high school. He's just finishing up now and I think it was an adjustment for him. The classes were harder. He's used to things coming easily. He also plays three sports, so every season he was in a sport. and he works really hard at his sports and wants to work to the best of his ability. And, I think he's, he's been overwhelmed at times and for him, You know, he doesn't come out and say it as much. I feel like, I don't know, with boys it's a little harder. and I don't want me to generalize at all, but it's just, it's yeah.

Peter Callahan: 44:11

that's our society. You're right, as much as you're trying to teach other things, it's the water we're swimming

Amanda Votto: 44:15

in with your emotions a little bit. So I think that has been sort of on my radar this year, like, staying connected and reading between the lines and just even when he's not sharing stuff and really showing him like how to deal with overwhelm in a healthy way, right? how to not just, you know, manage his time, although that's a very important skill, but also how to communicate, how, to express yourself, how, to be okay with not being okay at times,

Peter Callahan: 44:45

right. So what will you say to him? how do you, describe it to him? What's your,

Amanda Votto: 44:49

yeah.

Peter Callahan: 44:50

for a friend, how do you.

Amanda Votto: 44:51

If he feels really overwhelmed, I think just acknowledging, maybe helping him, put the words, how are you feeling right now? And if he's saying, you know, I feel overwhelmed. Yes. Validating, you have a lot that's on your plate and it's, of course you would feel overwhelmed. What do you think would help you? So allowing him to think within himself, About what is it? What would help me, and. now I see, because at the beginning of the year, he would be like, oh, I don't know. And I say, let's just go outside. Let's go outside. let's just walk outside for a few minutes. Like, and now we take deep breaths and walk outside. And he would be like, my mom's crazy. And we would just do all that. But now honestly I see him when he's like studying and I know he doesn't, you know, he doesn't necessarily wanna be studying civics or whatever it is he's studying. And I, he will go out and he'll like throw the lacrosse ball for like 10 minutes. I see him going out doing that and come back in and he's totally shifted his energy and he's back at it studying. So whether he realizes it or not, he's learning ways to support himself. So, yeah, I think that has been on my radar because I think it's very easy for kids in general to get overwhelmed. The last couple years have been crazy for everybody, but someone that takes a lot on their plate like he does, I just wanna be sensitive to that and, and just let him know he's not alone in that. Yeah, and my daughters are totally different. She's just different, you know, she's she is more like in touch with her emotion and than sensitive and, That is. Yeah. I, I don't know anything specific necessarily that I want to go into, but I think it is like keeping that conversation open and letting her know that I am a safe place, a non-judgmental place, to land and that she's funny cuz she'll be like, I don't want your advice. I just want you to listen. Which I think is so beautiful. I never learned how to say that to somebody ever. Like she knows what she needs. Yeah.

Peter Callahan: 46:53

And it's what most of us want, almost all the time, There's a great YouTube video, the nail in the head video if anyone wants to Google it, and it's just like a minute and a half of this woman with a nail stuck in her head. Sitting on the couch with her partner who's trying to convince her to take the nail out. And she's just asking him to listen. And it's this very dramatic example of exactly what you're describing. Please stop trying to solve the problem. I just want to be heard. and it's, it's what we all want most of the time. And I'm hearing you creating the space for your children as intentionally as you possibly can to say, I'm just here to listen. I care and I'm still your parent and I care so much that I'm gonna ask you some of these As as I would think of it Cause I try And be really conscious Of not putting on my coaching hat to Often or too firmly. And yet those directed questions of, well, what my favorite, what do you need right now I have no idea what I need. Okay. Well what's, what are 10 things you could try out and then. Be with that experience and see how it helps. and I heard a couple things there of both going outside and being in nature, which I'd love to hear you talk more about. Cause I know that's a big piece of it for both of us as well as nature. But then even just moving your body in general, getting up shift, doing something different. Yeah. If you wanna feel some move, a muscle change of thought

Amanda Votto: 48:11

and like normalizing, But we can get stuck energy, we can feel overwhelmed and it lives in our body too. and you know, we think it just lives in our mind and all the overwhelming thoughts, But it's in our body, right? We can move them, we can shake them. I mean, this morning my daughter was nervous actually on the way to school because she had to give a presentation and she's, she doesn't like standing up in front of people and she's on the quieter side and. She was vocalizing in the car, just how her body felt, which I thought was just really great awareness, right? She felt nauseous. She had a knot in her stomach, and it wasn't like, okay, you know, oh, you'll be okay. Sort of thing, I mean, yes, I did add that to it, but I, Sort of validated, that's difficult. I totally understand that. It's hard to be with that feeling What would help, maybe you need to shake your body, Get, take a drink of water. Let's open the window, let's make room for this feeling that's here and not push it away. Because you can't, you can't push that feeling away. The fact of the matter is she was nervous to give a presentation, is she going to do fine? I don't know. Probably. Um, probably. But what's more important is for her to have those experiences, even though they are so challenging. And as a parent, we don't wanna see our kids, be so uncomfortable and get so anxious, but, Again, if she can learn how to be with it, without pushing it away or, or whatnot, she'll be better off in the long run, even though it's hard at 13 years old to feel like you're on the verge of panic. But just to be with that, and for me not to, jump into the river with her and get panicked as well, but to just be that sort of grounded, safe space that. believes in her ability to handle difficult things. and then I'm curious to see how it went today, but I know regardless of how it went, she will know that, she did something difficult being with, And how many, People can honestly say they have. People that can totally just beat with, No judgment, no fixing, no analyzing, no offering advice, but just witness, Just hold the space for somebody in a loving way that you don't have to do anything, Just being there. As a parent, I tried to do that, but you know, my daughter calls me out when I don't. I don't want your advice. but I love it. And I didn't take offense to it either. I don't want your advice, I just want you to listen. And I immediately stopped talking. But had I not done the work, I'd be like, what do you mean you don't like, don't tell me to stop talking. it would've just been different. And I don't know. it's beautiful. That is like true love and compassion for another person when you can Just to take space, hold space, take yourself out of the, equation. All like your needs to you know, my own need to like fix or to understand or analyze and just be there.

Peter Callahan: 51:15

and to just care. It's so hard with people we care about, especially when we can see some path, some activity. Often it feels like, I know exactly what you need in order to feel better. And yet it is completely useless to try and jam that down your throat right now and what will actually support you. This is to me one of the hardest lessons still to learn that I think, you know, our society is just not giving us messages around, cuz most marketing and advertising is telling us, well, we have the answers for you. Here you go buy this and you'll feel better. As opposed to social support is what the research speaks to, like having others around you who you can be as open and vulnerable with as possible and just feel seen and heard. To your point about underlying needs, actually remember I took the Mindful self-compassion course with you at the beginning of covid, so I wound up doing, I was signed person, I wound up being on Zoom and I was at this phase in my own practice and growth where, you and your co-teacher were speaking to. We were asking art, what do you need? What needs do you have? And I was at this point where I would say, I don't need anything. I already, and it was from a place of abundance. I already have everything I need, but I was missing this piece of universal needs. And we all have, Maslow started with it and I think we've evolved from there of there are basic underlying human needs. I have a huge list here in front of me on my wall at all times of all of these underlying needs that we all share to different degrees in different moments, to being able to acknowledge some of these can get met. Right now, some cannot, and some people in my life are able to meet some of these needs while others aren't. That's why it does not make any sense to have a partner be your, your romantic outlet as well as your therapist, as well as your business partner, your logistical liaison with all the kids. Stuff like we need to get needs met in other places and we can create as much space for that as we can. As parents and we're never gonna meet all of our kids' needs. So how do we help them build the resources, the resilience, the awareness as you're speaking to, to be open to getting those needs met elsewhere which is terrifying as I say it to myself too, it's like, well, are they gonna be compassionate, kind, and warm? I don't,

Amanda Votto: 53:26

We can only do our best. no, but I do think that Strong independence, I don't need anything. That's a trauma response. that's a learned behavior, a protective pattern, because I have that. Within myself too. Just like I can take care of myself, I don't need anything. It protects us from being vulnerable with others from being connected. So not what we were talking about with having everything we need within us. But we also need that connection with others and we need, so it's there is that. I just, came up when I came up to mind when you. said that, so. Yeah. And one last thing, I think that you were saying before, and what someone else needs, What they need and, Wanting them to be open to it. And We can't impose anything on anyone. And I, I believe that the work that we do individually with ourselves is ultimately what helps others. So that feeling of wanting to tell people, oh, you should do this, or, I wish that you would feel so much better if you did this. They're not gonna receive it in that place. But I think. Living from example and, being open and that if they do, want to ask questions or seek advice, then you do, but not preaching or, wanting something for somebody that maybe they're just not there yet, they don't want it and it's if they don't want it, then. There's no point.

Peter Callahan: 54:57

Yes. This has been one of the hardest lessons for me on this journey of growth myself and becoming a coach and feeling like I have some license to give advice and really continuing to live into this trust. As we've been talking about this experience of the greatest thing we can offer is space and caring, and exactly as you're saying. When someone wants advice or is curious, they will ask if we've, to me, that's the greatest compliment I can get from any person is when they ask, what do you think? Or what's going on with you? And I try and meet that compliment with often another question that says, well, I trust, you know, what's best for yourself. So I have some ideas I'm happy to share. And first, what's coming up in your mind, in your heart? Because I'm just gonna be throwing things at the wall here and maybe something will stick. But I believe you have the best chance of helping yourself in that way right now. And I'm here to support in whatever way I can.

Amanda Votto: 55:57

Yeah.

Peter Callahan: 56:01

This has been so wonderful, Amanda. I keep going for a long time in this conversation and thinking of needs, we probably each have some other needs to be caring for in the near future here, but, and I'm just wondering, You don't know. We said at the beginning there was nothing we had to talk about. I'm just was wondering If there's anything else that's on your mind, on your heart right now that you wanted to share before we wrap up.

Amanda Votto: 56:27

I think that, If someone is listening and they are suffering or feeling stuck, I think just offering that there is always a way through. and I think that there's always hope. There's always a way through. There's always people that, Can help that can understand. And I hope that my sharing today is offering sort of a little bit, at least my roadmap, how I have really been able to embrace sort of. The anxiety, the parts of myself that I pushed away for a long time and really turn from criticizing those parts and criticizing myself to more of a compassionate place. And it, was intentional and It's been work, but I think that if you're ready for it and if there's, that willingness then. It's waiting for. For you. It's waiting.

Peter Callahan: 57:27

It's waiting. for you. That's beautiful. Wow. Thank you. so much, Amanda. This has really been such a wonderful conversation. It's been a

Amanda Votto: 57:36

Thank you, Peter. I'm very happy to be here and I'm excited to watch all of the ways that you have grown and all the things that you are doing to offer healing and love to all these people. So I'm happy to be part of it.

Peter Callahan: 57:52

Thanks so much, Amanda, and I'll, anything you want me to share as well, I'll make sure to put in the show notes so people can get to your website. Just amanda vato.com. And I know you've got some courses out there and offer coaching, so we'll put all that in there for

Amanda Votto: 58:07

Okay. Thank you.

Peter Callahan: 58:08

as well. Of course. Thank you so much. Take care.

58:16

All right. Well, huge. Thank you to Amanda. Manda. For joining me for this conversation. and thanks to each of you. For being with us. On this latest episode of the fresh perspectives podcast. If you enjoyed it and found a useful. I would be so grateful to be willing, to take a moment to subscribe. Offer any feedback and share it with a friend, if you think they might benefit from listening. Thanks for your curiosity And Wishing you courage and Compassion Be well