What Happened To You? The Intersection of Psychology, Mindfulness, and Trauma | Vamsi Koneru

I am so grateful to Vamsi for joining me for this conversation!  Please check out his website to learn more or reach out: https://konerupsychotherapy.com/

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Transcript

Peter Callahan: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the fresh perspectives podcast, where our intention is growing together. And leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan. And I believe we each have incredible capacity to continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species. And bring away more love and a lot less fear. We're into the world. And our daily lives. Changing can be hard. And. And I found that even if nothing changes having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective, Can change everything. I'm glad you're here. And I am so glad to be connecting today with my friends and colleague Dr. Wamsley. onesy is a PhD clinical psychologist in private practice at Psychotherapy LLC. Where he focuses on the intersection of trauma and mindfulness, which we'll be talking about today. And he really specializes in providing compassionate. What Happened To You? The Intersection of Psychology, Mindfulness, and Trauma Vamsi Koneru Evidence-based psychotherapy for adolescents, adults, and families. Mondi is also a certified mindfulness teacher with the engaged mindfulness Institute. Dr. is also a passionate social activist and focuses his work on the intersection of the carceral system and mental health. And he volunteers with stop. Solitary CT, an organization that aims to end the use of solitary confinement in jails detention centers and prisons across Connecticut. Replacing it with humane, safe, and effective alternatives. As well as serving on the forensic counseling team. At community mental health affiliates, where he provides individual therapy. For individuals who have been diverted. From or recently discharged from incarceration. And Waze is an enthusiast. teacher and serves as an assistant professor at the university of Connecticut school of medicine. As well as with the copper beach Institute. Dr. Kenario completed his Ms and PhD at the university of Miami, his clinical internship at the Yale university school of medicine and his postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard medical school, VA Boston healthcare system. And Wamsley brings that wealth of experience into our conversation today. And actually we grew up in the same town together. We'll discuss And once he talks about the experiences in his life, growing up with. Parents who immigrated from India to this country. And led him to these lenses that he now uses of psychology, mindfulness, and trauma, and really gives us some seriously fresh perspectives on how to identify. And potentially work with our experiences of trauma. Preferably with the support of a trained professional. And because our time was a bit short today, has your, the arrest reference. We had a lot more, we wanted to discuss. But one of the topics that we didn't get to talk about that. I'm hoping to discuss in later episodes is this idea of historical trauma. the idea that most, if not, all of us are living with some degree of trauma that has been passed down through multiple generations. That may be having far more impact on our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors than we're even able to yet understand. So just love to acknowledge that historical trauma piece as well, but so grateful to YMC for joining me for this conversation please keep it here. wonderful. It's great to

Vamsi Koneru: 3:53

Oh, thank you for the invitation. Yeah, it's always a gift to be with you.

Peter Callahan: 3:55

Yes. And maybe for, for my sake in recording your introduction and for listeners, maybe you whole name for us

Vamsi Koneru: 4:03

Oh, of course.

Peter Callahan: 4:05

you.

Vamsi Koneru: 4:06

Yeah. So my first name is Wie, and last name is Can like canary like the bird, but an oo at the end Can. Yes,

Peter Callahan: 4:15

like the bird. I've, I've heard you say that enough times that I think I'm getting it down now. So. That's wonderful. Well, again, thank you for being here, moms. It's such an honor. I know we've had many conversations over our years connected through the Copper Beach Institute in West Hartford, and you were a, were you a founding

Vamsi Koneru: 4:37

Just after, yeah, so I was in the M B S R training and then a book, current board member. and I became friendly and friends and we're chatting and he said, you know, copper Beach seems to be looking for a few new board members, I think generally, and then maybe wanting to add, maybe a deeper presence of mental health providers or sort of that perspective. And so he asked sort of from multiple perspectives. So I joined in 2014 as a board member of Copper Beach. Yeah,

Peter Callahan: 5:02

Wonderful. And I know you, you did your six years full term

Vamsi Koneru: 5:09

That's right. That's right.

Peter Callahan: 5:10

sad day when you were leaving as you were a big part of my, my journey there at Copper Beach and, and you referenced, I'm just always attuned to M B S R, which we have certainly talked about if you've, anyone's listened to previous episodes, but that is mindfulness based stress reduction, faithfully known as M B S R, the eight week. created by John Cabot Zinn that maybe, we'll, we'll get into a little bit more, but to start, as we were just referencing, before we start recording, I'd love to just let folks get to know you a little bit more. And know, for my own sake, I always love things that come up in this question. You know, understanding how you got into this world. So as a psychologist who specializes in trauma and mindfulness, And yeah, I'm just curious to hear too, as your journey and even maybe parents I'd love to, if you're up for starting there, and just any moments that you feel like you your interest in human behavior and the human mind, and trauma and

Vamsi Koneru: 6:15

Yeah. Thank you for that question. I love how you, you include, uh, my parents and sort of this intergenerational idea.'cause whenever I'm Asked to introduce myself. I'm often starting there, you know, first, you know, if I've been able to engage with people or connect with people in my professional role or personal role. I think it's largely a function of having the love and wisdom and guidance of Prasad and SMI Caner are wonderful parents. Amazing, amazing, amazing people. I've been reflecting more and more on that, to be honest. Um, their journey. And I'm still kind of piecing the story together with my mom. Uh, my father unfortunately passed a, a fair while ago in 2001, sadly. But, um, thinking about just like the ideas of, uh, trust that probably will come up and I know has come up various times when we speak, but trust, bravery, courage like that. Hopefully we try to embody when I think about them. Deciding to take this leap of faith with, my father had his medical training but finished his, um, residency and sort of some additional training here in the States, but they decided to leave in 1976 of the, with the two year old. And two, my older brother headed, headed to the United States and then 1978 in Massachusetts rather, I joined the fray. We jokingly say in the canary was sort of lower. When we moved to Falmouth in 1980, the four of us quadrupled the Indian population of Falmouth becoming the four Indian people in the town. It came with a lot of, uh, benefit, I think, though it was, it's a lovely community as we've spoken about our connections to the Cape, but Falmouth is, it's a lovely town, a very, um, thoughtful, liberal, progressive, community. And then, uh, being the son of, uh, of one of the three. Anesthesiologists in, in the whole town. And, son of the Indian physician, if you will, it's like, oh, you're Dr. Canner's son, come to the front of the line. Like, yeah, we love him. He took care of my sister. He took, but I mentioned that because just one of the consistent elements that I heard about him and my mom was just, just this, this love that they conveyed my dad. When people would speak about, Tim would say like, oh my God, like I was so nervous about my surgery, or My daughter was so nervous about having this happen. Then your dad came in. It was just very soothing. He kind of joked around. He set us at ease, and then all of a sudden I was waking up from the surgery and I. I heard stories like that over and over and over again. so I mentioned this also because the word story is so relevant for me. You know, when I was growing up, I just always found myself loving story, loved going to the library and listening to stories, loved going to the bookshop, listening to stories. I loved, reading. in our household there was sort of a requirement, like you always had to be in the midst of some kind of book. Uh, as I got a little bit older. I would read these Spencer Mystery novels only because my dad would read them in about a day. Then my brother would read them in a week, and then it would take me maybe a month or so, and I would read these, and after five or six or seven of them, I went to my dad. I was like, you know, they kind of all feel pretty similar. Dad, like, you know, X happens, Y happens. The mystery is solved. He's like, yeah, that's, you know, why? We can read them pretty quickly. They're just enjoyable books. But I, I was telling him like, you know, I really enjoy when Spencer, the detective, like when he's speaking with his wife or when he and his friends are chatting when you learn about him. And so, as a young kid, I started noting, I was just very interested in people's stories. You know, what motivated this character to do what they did? Why, why were they upset in that relationship? What resulted in. That these kinds of questions would come up. And I always found those parts of the book most intriguing and getting to know who this character was. And as I was a young kid, my dad said, you know, there are these books written called Biographies, He introduced me to this whole concept of biography and it was actually quite revelatory for me. I was like, oh my God. A whole book where I get to learn about this person's story. That's amazing. So I forget even at what age, but young and they had these little Charming little books, like kind of an abridged version of, you know, Einstein's biography and this person's biography. So I just started reading them and I just found it just would consume them'cause they're just so enjoyable to read for me. And so think that's what started getting me, the more interested in just the, the sense of story and narrative and a person's story and their development and this idea of biography and what makes up a story. And then I always was very interested in science. And then the third piece I often will say, when I think about like my professional development and what sort of led me to do a lot of what I do is that as a kid I found myself always hearing about this thing that people would go to and they always look kind of down, down, trot and upset and they'd be like, oh, I gotta go to work, I've gotta go to work. And I'm like, what is this? This is awful. Like look at these people's expressions. So I jokingly, but not so jokingly say, probably a lot of my early life Maybe in some ways continues to be like a quality of my mission is to not be overly engaged in what feels like work. If it feels overly laborious, then I really try to observe like, what's happening here? Is there some incongruence between my actions and my values in this moment?'cause more often than not, I, I tend to find a sense of, uh, congruence. Not to say obviously, uh, At times things can be very challenging. Like as a psychologist, listening to some of the things that people bring up, especially in the context of trauma, which we'll talk about of course, but it doesn't feel like work. You know? It feels like I feel quite honored actually most of the time, getting to hear people's stories and hear people share what they're, what they're able to and comfortable, uh, to share as our relationship develops. So, so this blending of story. Science and then this kind of joking, but not so joking. Again, sort of wanting to pursue and find a path that didn't feel too laborious, too much like work or kind of the driving elements. As a senior in high school, I took a course in psychology for the first time. Never met a psychologist. You know, there weren't any psychologists within our familial community. a psychology course, I wanna say for something more heroic. but probably because somebody told me, oh, you get an easy a in that course, probably something like that as a senior. But I took the course and I was like, this is it. hit me sort of as a senior in high school. I was like, this is, this is putting together all of the pieces for me. Psychology, the study of human behavior, the study of motivation. Trying to really, uh, foster that sense of curiosity about people. It all seemed to, to play out within this, within this realm. So then, from there it was pretty set on studying psychology as an undergrad pursuit. Psychology. I. wasn't quite sure if I would go into like maybe medical school was intrigued by psychiatry and neurology, so I wasn't quite sure what I was gonna do with it yet, but I just knew this was kinda the field that spoke to me. Well, as a junior, became all the more interested in studying in a more formal way literature. So started studying American literature at the same time. I mentioned that just because when I graduated then I wasn't quite sure which way to go. I was sort of torn, like, should I go this way towards psychology, which has spoken to me, should I go this way? So being uncertain, kind of pulled on some of my more active and activism kind of, uh, orientation. I pursued the Peace Corps. I lived in Ecuador for a while and worked there. And then following that, that experience, it felt more crystallized that I think psychology was the space for me. It felt like it brought together all of these elements as well as nurtured more so. The kind of active and activism sort of orientation. And so I came back from Peace Corps and worked in a psychiatric hospital for a couple of years, and I mentioned that because that was actually a time of deep formation. A mentor really helped me to think about what I, or what path I ought to pursue, how to do this most effectively because I was thinking about, Maybe some mixture of family therapy. I was very intrigued by family therapy, seeing families in a waiting room, and I didn't know anything about family therapy at this time, but just seeing families together, Seeing them provide the support to one another, beginning to like kind of become tearful because we were working with the kids at that time and so we'd kind of whisked the kid, whisked the child away for a little while an hour or to interview them, do some, some different activities, but the parents would form this makeshift group, what seemed like. And so I started to see there's something there. I don't know exactly what's happening, but something is there. So I began to think about family therapy, clinical psychology. So I presented this idea to a mentor at that time, you know, I think I'm gonna get a L M F T or a licensed marriage and family therapy degree, then I'm gonna pursue a PhD.'cause I'm very interested in research. And one of the things I think for all of us, we think back to our teachers and mentors at that time. He looked at me like with very warm eyes, a very tender heart. And he said, that's amazing and here's what you're gonna do, And so he told me, he's like, you're gonna find a mentor in graduate school. Uh, in clinical psychology that focuses on family and family therapy. And you're gonna pursue that. You know, just providing me a much more linear trajectory, a much more kind of parsimonious solution to things. And so I continue to think back to him and oftentimes now I'm very eager and enthusiastic about mentoring because he really helped me to kind of just clarify my course. I had a sense of what I wanted to do, but you know, there are many, many pathways within psychology, so it can be challenging for people to figure out exactly the best way. So he was very helpful in that. so from there I went to Miami and pursued PhD in psychology. Completed my training there, and, from there, did some additional training as an intern and a postdoc for a while, I cut my teeth in community mental health. I feel like my heart still sort of resides in community mental health, but where, where the pieces of, more the intersections of mindfulness and trauma come in is that, um, As a fourth year graduate student, I was introduced to a type of therapy called Dialectical Behavior Therapy and D B T or Dialectical Behavior Therapy is one of the more, um, I find more forward thinking models when it comes to mindfulness. It was one of the first that in a very empirical way, brought in mindfulness. I didn't really know what this was as a fourth year. I was kinda like, what is this? Am I doing this right? And, uh, as I, as I practiced individually, And started, I think having all of the questions that we tend to as early practitioners, am I doing this right? Is this what it is? Is my mind supposed to be wandering this much? I must be doing this wrong because my mind is wandering so much so on and so forth. So pursued individually for a while, but again, sort of bringing the arm of science in was an on-ramp for me. So the work of various people, including, like Dan Siegel for example, was very helpful for me to feel like there's like a, there, there, like something was happening. And not to say that's necessary many folks, but for me it provided a kind of on-ramp and scaffolding to appreciate like that something's, something's occurring here. It gave me sort of some elements of motivation and then, uh, from there, I. I felt like I wanted to pursue it all the more deeply. I was like, I think this is something very, very meaningful. And I, as we were talking about at the beginning, the word, the letters M B S R kept coming up, mindfulness based, stress reduction. And I was like, I think I need to take this course, but how am I gonna get to Worcester? I live in Connecticut, I need to go to UMass. How am I gonna do this? I have a family. So I researched it and the, I was like, look at that. M B S R, mindfulness based stress reduction is being offered at a place I've never heard of. Copper Beach Institute. And so that was my inroad or on-ramp into the Copper Beach Institute as well. And I did the eight week training there and then became a board member and sort of continued to more deeply pursue the mindfulness. The trauma piece came in as a postdoc where I had one of my first patients, um, and I wanna throw it back to you, but the trauma piece came in. uh, one of my first patients when, when I began speaking with him, said, you know, since I've been home, I'm just not the same. I didn't really know a lot about trauma at this point, but that, that, um, sentiment just really touched me in, in a particular way. Maybe it was the timing of it, how he said it. Um, just the genuineness of it, the authenticity of it helped me to begin thinking like, wow, like what does that mean? In fact, and I don't, I don't know that I had a particularly coach and answer at that point, but it started me sort of wanting to investigate more. What does he mean? And he was a great teacher of his in, uh, sharing the story of his experience to help me really begin to think about, you know, what is the experience of trauma, what are the effects of trauma? And then the last piece of just the intersection of the two was when I was working in a community mental health agency as one of my positions. And I had a wonderful teacher, a patient that I got to work with, we'll call her Emily. And just, a long story short, I, I was very interested in mindfulness and trauma. But it really hadn't begun to more deeply make connections between the two, kind of a trauma-informed mindfulness perspective, which we can talk about a little bit more. Uh, but they were two somewhat separate or I thought, oh, we can offer sort of mindfulness practice to individuals and I think it would be helpful. I began speaking with her and said, you know, I've gotten more and more into this, idea of mindfulness and the practices of mindfulness and what this is. And at that point, my practice was very tethered to like a mindfulness of the breath practice, where, as you know, but for listeners, um, that may be less familiar, just were attending to an object of attention in this case, the breadth just coming in and outta the body. So I gave her a little introduction to it. I said, what do you think? Would you be open to sharing in a practice? She said, Sure. Honestly, I'll give it a try. We did a maybe brief practice, two or three minutes, and at the end of it, she opened her eyes and looked at me and she's like, you know, I don't think I'm into this breathing shit. Dr. K just an amazing, amazing teacher that helped me begin seeing that mindfulness of the breath is simply a practice. It's simply a doorway into this sort of room of mindfulness, not the doorway. And so the, the intersection of all of these different pieces, but those couple of folks, one, the patient at, during my postdoc and then Emily, who wonderful teachers that really helped me to put these different ideas that felt somewhat disparate, but that I was trying to work with really helped me to create a little bit more of a coherent lens, coherent set of intersections between these ideas.

Peter Callahan: 20:25

Coherent lens. Yes. Wow, that was a very coherent journey. You just took us on too, SIE. Thank you. It was, yeah, I just felt fully in it with you. And as always, what I love about getting to do this is I just learned three or four things that I, not sure, you know, had ever come up in our many conversations before. I'm grateful for that. And there's just so many wonderful pieces. It's so, I love, one of the things I would just wanna reflect on is, The degree to which you've reflected on your own journey and your story and to be able to sort of so succinctly it, maybe, you know, 10 or 12 minutes, doesn't feel succinct on some level, but you just took us through 40 years of life a way that to me was very engaging and, and trackable. And it's so interesting how you've been able to weave some pieces. Of those early experiences. I love hearing you talk about how much storytelling drew you in and then your interest in people. And that's

Vamsi Koneru: 21:29

Hmm.

Peter Callahan: 21:30

something we share and probably in a way I, that helped me see my own curiosity in a way that I haven't before Wamsley. So I really appreciate that. Like, oh yeah, there is, just something about hearing people's stories that isn't, hope is sort of a basic human trait on some level, but. Either way. I know many folks don't find as much curiosity or interest in that, which is okay. It's just I'm grateful to, to want to hold that space and to just really feel the mutual benefit of getting to both listen to and share each other's stories. such an honor.

Vamsi Koneru: 22:08

Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you. Yeah.

Peter Callahan: 22:11

I could ask about 10 more questions that I wanted to fill in some more gaps and curiosity in there. And maybe just, one keeps, it's sort of, sort of nagging at me in the back of my mind. So I'll bring it up in this idea of, research is often me search folks speak to, so especially those who are piled higher and deeper such as yourself, you know, getting a PhD and the, there is the irony too, that That you, you know, my, my dad happened to be a PhD in Falmouth at the time that you were describing. So Sy and I met in Connecticut. Turns out we both went to Falmouth High School in Massachusetts and just such a, at only a years apart, know, we just missed each other basically. the way, the way life works.

Vamsi Koneru: 22:56

it's wild. Wild.

Peter Callahan: 22:58

Yes. It's so wonderful that your dad, I didn't, I didn't know any of cans, so I didn't get to be put out by your dad, however you might say that more professionally, But, uh, the other, you know, the other one point that I do just wanna touch to the next question, WAM, and I'll let you respond if

Vamsi Koneru: 23:16

Yeah, please.

Peter Callahan: 23:17

is just this. This idea, because I love your, your three pieces that you spoke to. I didn't label them well in my notes, but learning like story, learning about people, then not being overly engaged burden that is work. And I just love that. I felt that way about school in many ways. I feel like a voracious learner now I've. Feel like in many ways I've done much more learning since I graduated college than all those years in formal education. But I love this idea and one of the things I think I have mentioned previously is doing my best in life. And I think you were speaking to this really well, of exchanging anytime I feel the word work coming up in myself.'cause I love to work hard, I find it very rewarding and meaningful I'm connected to why I am doing it, as you described. I love the of. Noticing how I'm relating to something that may be work, and seeing if I can word work for play as often as possible in life. so I really appreciate as you described it, someone might say, oh well this, this person's just lazy. He just doesn't wanna work hard and everything I know about you, that could not be further from the truth. you have three children. It's not you. You can't possibly be, you don't have the option to be It's really not on the table. So let own psychology practice and all the training and continuing education you've done. And anyway, yeah. anything come up for you in there

Vamsi Koneru: 24:41

I think, yeah, I think you bring up, uh, really important points, right? That, um, yeah. This isn't about Trying to escape or disconnect or as you're saying, right, like the of not in any kind of a quality of avoidance, right? That this idea of, um, when something feels. Work for me as, as we're sort of reiterating, it's that idea that I think there's some, some sense of incongruence, you know, and D B T, we we're often looking for effectiveness and congruence, and are you living a life that's consistent and congruent with your values? And sometimes we need clarification on what our values are. Not to say they're static by any means. These are evolving qualities as well. But just that, that, I take it almost like a mindfulness bell, if you will. Sometimes to begin and close a practice, somebody will ring just a gentle bell. But it's sort of this reminder to familiarize, to be awake, to be attentive. And so I take that sense of like the emotional feel of if it feels like work almost kind of as a meditation bell, like, huh, attend to this, sort of engage with this in such a way. Open your eyes, open your heart a little bit more as to why is that, you know, not in any way. Hopefully not to as to Escape or avoid, but maybe even to delve more deeply into it in different ways or maybe more nuanced ways, maybe ways that, again, feel like how I want to approach it, how it feels a sense of, an evolving relationship with something. Yeah. And then the other word, um, just comes to mind consistently for me, and I I was just saying it today, was, um, to a potential, I may work with in the future, let's say. But, word practice, you know, that I used to, you know, in a lot of our textbooks and stuff, they'll say like, remember to be working with homework and work with your patients on homework so that the work has come like. I don't know that I wanted to be doing homework. I don't know that most people wanna be doing homework. Of course. Again, like, so I simply call it practice. Like we're trying to bring the practice that we're engaging in, in the session into the practice of life. And then, so when I think about a lot of things, I simply think of life as an unfolding practice. That's how I think about, you know, meditation and mindfulness coming off the cushion, so to speak. It's just an, an unfolding practice that I, there's nothing privileged about the sitting. If you will. Like, that's not the practice. It's simply that's how the practice is, is manifesting in that moment. Um, but I try to bring the same energy and attention and sort of awareness and sort of, I think of mindfulness as kind of a loving awareness and a very engaged and active awareness. I try to bring that, if you will, With me to the cushion when I sit down, and then I hope it travels with me off the cushion out into this on ongoing and unfolding practice. So that word practice is one that I hold, uh, very dearly as well.

Peter Callahan: 27:25

Me too. Zi. Me too. Absolutely. Thank you. And, and I love practice that you just described of when you're relating to something with some tension or constriction as work and you don't have to stop and sit down follow your breath to your point. That's one doorway that's probably not appropriate in most moments when you're working of work sometimes. Sure. But to recognize a practice to, and one of the for mindfulness is remembering, it's a practice to remember, ah, this is is something that comes up in me and maybe, you know, maybe we call it a challenge or an opportunity to, to then practice and say, all right, what, how can I more deeply understand this and what, what room might there be practice to this a little bit differently? That's so much of the work in coaching with people I get to work with is like, okay, this is coming up. That's okay. It's understandable. work might be, let's understand. How this came to be, where, you know, and that's can be more therapy obviously if we're both doing a good job. There's some aspects of each of our work in each other's, but we have different training. And then for me it's let's, let's take this forward, acknowledging that this is a reality that I'm facing. This is part of who I am, how do I wanna work with this going forward? What's the next right for me to, begin to, heal and grow and choose another step. so maybe this is a good transition too for. For understanding trauma because the, the word is used often now. I think people have heard, as you referenced me, P T S D, post-traumatic stress disorder is one of the ways I certainly heard about it first in the last 20 years or so, and yet there's, there's been so much more around it and. Maybe just to start, I'm curious to hear how you might define trauma, how you understand it in the most layman's terms. Not all of us have a PhD, so

Vamsi Koneru: 29:21

No, I think, I think you bring up a number of important points, right? That for most individuals they've probably heard that configuration of letters, right? P T S D, post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. And, uh, I'm thankful that a lot of people, when they hear those letters, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard of that. Right? I think one of the limits, it's a real thing, right? And it's, it's pervasive and people do experience it and, you know, it's certainly something that has to be held, with a lot of, respect and reverence, not simply those letters, but the idea that there's acknowledgement of it. Right. this has been a sort of psychological and psychiatric journey for our various professions as well, to get to a place where it is acknowledged, where it is acknowledged also beyond something that soldiers experience exclusively. So we're still in this ongoing journey, but to, to begin, one of the, the definitions that really resonates with me, um, It comes from the National Traumatic Stress Network and the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration. It's a three E definition, and what I like about this is it thinks about the event, the experience, and the effects. We often think about trauma as it's described as like this is a traumatic event, and that's the trauma, like the earthquake or the migration or The unfortunate occurrence that occurred per perhaps between two people, some type of abuse. And it is not to, in any way, to minimize or discard that. It is simply to say that, that that event in and of itself is not the trauma. It's really the experience of that. How did that affect me psychologically? How did that affect me socially? How did that affect me emotionally? Because let's take migration for example. For some people it could be an incredibly traumatic event. For my parents, it was not. You know, it was moving, to something where they felt like this is what we want to move towards sort of this quote unquote American dream for other people, due to various other circumstances. That same experience could be quite traumatic because the event itself, the migration has deep, um, emotional and psychological. Uh, it is experienced in deeply, maybe painful or distressing, psychological, social, emotional ways, and then the effects of it. What are the lasting sort of adverse effects of the event and the experience. So this three e definition, I think helps us to think about trauma as not bound to the event, really taking it to the individual, the group or the community, and the effects of it, excuse me, the experience of it, and then the lasting effects of it.

Peter Callahan: 31:52

Thank

Vamsi Koneru: 31:52

So that helps me to organize when I'm thinking about, individual group social community level trauma, like what happened, of course is relevant. You know, a key question we often ask is like, what happened to you? Right? We try to shift from this mindset of pathology, like, what's wrong with you to what happened to you? And that, that I think is a very governing question in a lot of the work that we try to do as. Probably most of us in our fields, you know, if you're relating to human beings, if we can create a lens of, fundamentally, to me, I hear it like, what's your story? Like, what's unfolded in your life and what happened to you? Right? As opposed to the psychopathological lens, we often think about a lot of terms, like, what are the symptoms? You know, what's wrong with you? so that's how, I think about trauma, how I try to conceptualize it, and I use it as, as a way to open, I guess the process of trying to really listen to and perhaps assist in support in the, the storytelling and kind of like the assembly or to support somebody and trying to create a sense of a narrative as opposed to oftentimes in trauma, individual stories become quite fragmented and, you know, there's various Sort of reasons for that, but just it's, it's the memory of trauma, uh, due to the effects of trauma can leave a very kind of jagged representation or kind of just pieces or shards or splinters of a story. And I think our jobs really, as in the relationship of psychotherapy, perhaps coaching as well, perhaps in, in various other domains, is to simply assist people, first and foremost, to try to help put some of those splinters or shards of that story together over time. It's not to say we dive right into that, you know, for some people that, that may not be available or accessible. Some of the work is helping people develop and practice different skills that helps them to manage again, the effects of trauma. So they might really struggle with, management, stress management, relational management, engaging in things because of the compromised safety they felt. So the work might be very much hinged and, uh, built on a foundation of developing various skills to support that. And then if individuals feel, equipped and in a way ready and it's via the relationship, the psychotherapeutic relationship, we feel like it could be useful to really, construct and sort of recreate that sense of a cogent and coherent narrative for that person. So they feel like they have a autobiographical narrative to organize their lives is often a significant part of the work as well.

Peter Callahan: 34:27

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. That makes sense. So creating story And I've heard, and maybe I'll come back to this in a moment actually, the, the, the remote control can be one, one storytelling that I've heard of. But just to touch on, so to clarify,'cause I really appreciate your definition in these three, ease of event, experience and effect. And one of the things that really helped me understand this was, is the two people could be standing next to each other, witness the same atrocity. Maybe you're both standing in a window and you watch nine 11 occur, right? And these buildings fall and people jumping and then one person. Could have a very different experience and experience much different effects from that than the person standing next to'em. Not that it, you have so many different impacts on us. Right. And I'd liked your point, from your story earlier that person came back, they said, and they just, they don't feel the same like I am now relating to most of my life differently. And that can lead to all these behaviors. And I love this question instead of. What's wrong with you? And this really helps me simply to reduce my road rage at times, right? Someone does something, cuts me off. My mind is trained to go to what's wrong with you. That's not how to behave in our culture, whereas I can now notice that come up and shift that question to ask, oh, what's happened to you? How's, how's your day going today? Please, please go Often. I can cultivate now some generosity. Like, sorry, you're having a tough time. Please, please go for it. I, I know you didn't mean to Other times still just wanna lift up a single finger, but I'm doing better. It's getting better. Um, and, and I know for, for the sake of time, onesie, there's so much more to unpack here and get into maybe for, for another conversation, but I'm almost thinking of Maybe just leaving folks with some more practical tips and maybe people have heard of the ACEs study, right? Adv experiences and some of these markers. So that's one thing to Google if you want to, and just see like, all right, what are some of the things I've been through that May lead to a less desirable effect in my life. And I'm just curious, some of the other practical tips or things you might share for folks to bring some more awareness, even if it becomes scary to tell their story. And I was referencing the, the remote control. I've heard when you can almost pretend to have a remote control and press play or pause, rewind, not to tell story right now.

Vamsi Koneru: 36:45

That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. So a couple of different thoughts are coming to mind. One, just piggybacking on the idea of story, sometimes people will come into my office or other provider's offices and first and foremost, just feeling a deep sense of honor for individuals willingness to step into a room that, that they're not certain, like what the, the person on the other side is going to be. Like that sense of bravery, but also the idea that a lot of folks have said, oh man, I thought You were just gonna make me like spill my whole story out. Like I thought that's what gonna be session one or day one. And so I often will say like, we, we always wanna move at the speed of trust. And I think, you know, there are various trauma models and trauma therapies, but fundamentally I think we want to start with the sense of safety and stabilization, like helping people to develop. Various skills in an individual way that help them to feel like they can navigate through the, through their life more effectively then, you know, if necessary. And as part of the work kind of developing the sense of autobiographical and a coherent narrative. So of this stemming, leads me to think about kind of the principles of trauma-informed mindfulness, sort of this intersection, because oftentimes mindfulness is presented You know, there are various challenges that we've discussed over time. You know, the, the concerns about mindfulness being presented a bit as like a panacea. It can be used for everything. It does everything. And I think we want to be cautious and attentive to that, especially in the world of trauma because again, for most people, like myself included, as I was mentioning earlier in my relationship to mindfulness, mindfulness becomes synonymous with mindfulness of the breath. Eyes closed, practice sitting, still focusing on the breath. A wonderful practice for many, many people. The way I start most of my days as as my sort of first practice of the day. And for some it could be incredibly dysregulated. You know, asking people to pay quiet, close, sustained attention to their internal experience could be quite dysregulating, meaning it could be Having them bump up against old memories, old injuries, old wounds if you will, emotional and otherwise that could lead to almost a sense of retraumatization. So I say all of this from a ideas and practical perspective, if you will, to think about these, um, the, the fundamental principles of trauma informed mindfulness. And just very quickly, um, there are four Rs. A for R definition that I think helps us to understand trauma-informed mindfulness. The first R is realizing the prevalence of trauma, and as you were mentioning, the ACEs study and for, for those that dunno, the adverse childhood experiences study, that just helps us to get a sense that trauma isn't something that happens like over there to those people. that trauma is something that, uh, unfortunately is quite, uh, quite prevalent in our society across all, all layers and socioeconomic strata and so on. So again, just helping us to really first appreciate that whether we're in a boardroom, a classroom, a yoga room, yoga studio. So on that the, the space may hold some amount of trauma and probably does. Holding that lens then of what happened to you? What's, what's the story, I think is one practical sort of idea, just trying to have that question infused into your work. second R is recognize the symptoms, which I don't wanna delve too, deeply into right now. But just the idea that there are different types of symptoms, but the real thing Sort of practical tip, if you will, that that might stem from that is the idea that when we're working with individuals, including ourselves, trying to recognize quote unquote symptoms as adaptations, that our nervous system, our brain, our body, our heart, made in an effort to to strive and thrive within the world and environment that we're in.

Peter Callahan: 40:33

Yes. Well, we're all

Vamsi Koneru: 40:37

and, and that we are these, that we are, these works in progress, that are constantly trying to, if you will, shape themselves to navigate as effectively as we can in the world that we're in. So again, this kind of deep pathologizing lens, but then the third R is responding skillfully. So we think about realizing the prevalence, recognize the symptoms. The third are respond skillfully, and just a couple of ideas related to that specifically within the mindfulness, if you will. If we're. Uh, trying to offer mindfulness practice. One of the ideas is simply to make our language quite invitational. You know, teachers will often in a very loving way, but may say like, okay, now let's close our eyes. for some people then, you know, being, wanting to be sort of disciplined practitioner, okay, apparently I need to close my eyes for this. And just a very simple modification may be like, in the next few moments, I'll invite you. To find, I'll often say simply to soften your gaze, and this may mean finding a spot one or two feet in front of your toes, just letting the gaze soften and rest on. Or for some it may mean letting your eyes fully close, so you just begin via this invitational language to offer the sense of choice, offer the idea that I, the practitioners still have a sense of autonomy within the practice, and then invitation choice. Is infused through all of this. So like having our eyes open or closed using different objects of attention. So it doesn't simply have to be the, the breadth at the tip of the nose. It could be something external like sound, for example. You know, let's focus for the next few moments just on the sounds we're hearing in the room, because for some, again, paying deep, close, sustained attention to internal experience may not be inviting. And so all of these ideas of modification or responding skillfully are fundamentally at the core, trying to avoid retraumatization that forth are avoid retraumatization. So I think if we bring in sort of a heartset and a mindset of invitation and genuineness and acceptance, you know, we'll often say like in different spaces, you've already done the hardest thing, which is to show up here. Yeah. And then we simply let the practice be the teacher.

Peter Callahan: 42:51

Yes. Onesie the heart set. is a new term for me that I will be borrowing, if that's okay. The mindset and the heart set. Yes. And even as you just started to describe guiding practice there, I felt myself relax a little, like there was just a little bit of settling for me and. Maybe we could just add on a nice 30 minute guided practice. If you don't mind, mom, I know you have to immediately, but we're already time.

Vamsi Koneru: 43:22

if

Peter Callahan: 43:22

much.

Vamsi Koneru: 43:23

I would, I would happily, happily do it. And, uh, perhaps, uh, you know, seeing the time, I know our time has been brisk today. Perhaps we can, uh, we can, we can find another time, but, uh, yeah, I would love to, I would love to do that. Yeah. But, but you mentioned something so important, right? The idea that, um, You know, all of, all of our sort of sense of knowledge and you know, principles and the three E's of trauma, the four RSS of trauma and for mindfulness. While I think it is important to have some sense of these ideas and the principles, I think it comes down to, as you were saying, kind of a sense again, of practice.'cause one of my teachers would often say like, you're not really the mindfulness teacher. You know, the practice is the teacher. You're simply trying to open space and engage in the practice. With the community that you're in. So if we continue to allow sort of the, the practice to, to be the teacher, I think then we're really embodying in a way some of the, some of the idea theory philosophy of trauma informed mindfulness, and I think creating a sense of invitation for people to participate. I think a lot of people feel, as if mindfulness is something that like again, other people do, like that's done by people with, you know, eyes closed, living in Santa Barbara under a beautiful tree, you know, with a rainbow behind them. And all of these kind of mythologies get punctured when we really begin to, as you were saying, kind of remember, you know, at its core, what is the practice one of remembering familiarizing ourselves.

Peter Callahan: 44:52

Absolutely Momsy. Well, thank you for creating this space for us today. And yeah, it's been really en enriching. I wanna say like just, I really just hearing you speak, I. It's, it really resonates with me anyway, just the, the way that frame these things and share them. And I feel that invitational language in every sentence that you utter honestly. And it really creates a beautiful doorway for me. And yeah, it's good reminder to. Call you more often so that I can have some more reminders and hopefully, you know, share some in return where it feels useful. But yeah, thank you so much for your time and apologize. I know went a little over, but I really appreciate just what you got into there and yeah, just kind of really a beautiful, both telling your story and then bring us kind of more deeply into what you're focused now, knowing we're only scratching the surface here.

Vamsi Koneru: 45:50

Oh, thank you for the invitation. Always. Uh, it's always a gift to be able to sit down with you for, I know our time was a little short today, but, uh, anytime we get to chat is always a, is a gift to me. So

Peter Callahan: 46:01

Thank you

Vamsi Koneru: 46:04

Thank you. Thank you again. Great to see you. I'll talk to you soon.

Peter Callahan: 46:07

bye-bye.

Vamsi Koneru: 46:08

Take care. Bye-bye.

Peter Callahan: 46:15

All right. Well, thank you so much to YMC. Z for that incredible conversation. And thank you For. being here with us on the fresh perspectives podcast. If you enjoyed it and found it useful, I would be grateful if you'd be willing to take a moment to subscribe. Offer any feedback and share it with a friend, if you think they might benefit from listening. Thanks so much for your curiosity. Wishing you courage and compassion. Be well.