Messy Perspectives Part 1 | Mario Jovan

I am so grateful to Mario for joining me for this conversation!  Please check out his website to learn more or reach out:  https://www.messyroots.org/

Thank you for being here. Please subscribe and share if you feel called, and reach out anytime at https://www.fp-ct.org/

Transcript

Peter Callahan: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the fresh perspectives podcast, where our intention is growing together. And leading with love. I'm Peter Callahan. And I believe we have an incredible capacity to continue to learn and evolve as individuals and as a species. And bring way more love and a lot less fear. Into the world. And our daily lives. Changing can be hard. And I found that even if nothing changes having the courage to see our challenges from a fresh perspective, Can change everything. I'm really glad you're here. And I'm really glad to be sharing this conversation with Mario Jovan Shaw. Uh, Mario does so much and has much loved offer to the world. And ultimately you can hear a lot more about him on his podcast, the messy roots podcast, where actually part two of today's conversation is being dropped on the very same day. But just a little bit about Mario. He grew up in Ohio and went to the university of Cincinnati. Before. Going to get his master's in education at John Hopkins. Then Mario was a middle school teacher for teach for America. And you can actually still see his face of plaster all over their marketing years. Later you mentioned. Mario, then co-founded profound gentlemen. Awesome name. Uh, nonprofit supporting male educators of color. And now Mario, as you'll hear him talk about is a mindful leadership coach and trains and develops current and aspiring male leaders of color through his organization. MSCI routes. So in this fascinating conversation in the Mario and I have today. He really shares his deep belief in the power of storytelling. If you've listened to some other episodes, you've heard other guests talk about this as well. And Mario. Just has an incredible story himself and perspective on the value of storytelling. And so we discussed privilege and race and what it's. Like to hold very different identities as we each do. And some of his experiences, including being the only black tennis player on many of the teams that he played on. So really grateful to Mario for this conversation, very excited for part two, but but for now, keep it here for part one of my conversation with Mario Jovan. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being with me today, Mario. It's a pleasure to have you

Mario Jovan: 2:48

Yes, I am super excited to be here on the Fresh Perspectives. I love that title, That's so cool.

Peter Callahan: 2:57

Thanks Mario. And just to say to everyone, we're pretty confident this is, uh, our first of two episodes that we were. We're gonna be doing our best to drop'em on the same day. Hopefully that's happening and this is going to happen. So this is, this is episode one and if you wanna check out episode two. Please hop over to the Messy Roots Podcast where part two of our conversation is currently happening at the same time. I dunno how we're in two places at once, Mario, but.

Mario Jovan: 3:26

Ai. They're cloning us now. I love that.

Peter Callahan: 3:32

Yes, yes. But, so maybe for context, you know, you and I are both, coaches for Revolution, Marissa Bagley's wonderful organization. And so that's how we originally connected and. Personally, I just immediately loved your vibe and everything. You're all about Mario and getting to know you a little bit more, and this brand of messy roots and just the authentic vulnerability that you show up with in the world. Man, I'm just so grateful that you're willing to take the time to share some of yourself with anyone who's listening.

Mario Jovan: 4:06

I appreciate it. You know, I felt the same with you. I thought, your story was great. I don't know a lot of people from Delaware or live that live in Delaware, uh,

Peter Callahan: 4:15

I'm act, I'm actually in Connecticut,

Mario Jovan: 4:17

Connecticut,

Peter Callahan: 4:17

similar.

Mario Jovan: 4:18

thing. Same, same, same state, you know, Uh,

Peter Callahan: 4:21

whitewashed Northeast place. Yeah.

Mario Jovan: 4:24

but no, I thought it was really cool and we've had. Just like two to three conversations prior to this and just like Iron Chopper and iron, which is like my favorite thing to do as a coach is learning from other coaches and having the ability to just. Really grow with each other. So I know that this conversation one will help me to grow, and I'll probably be thinking about this for a minute. and then also, hopefully those who are listening, welcome Messy roots folks to this part one too. hopefully you're listening, for you to be able to get the context. Part two, but I hope that, you know, it'll help you grow as well.

Peter Callahan: 5:03

Thank you Mario. I have no doubt, no doubt. I really believe we are each each other, students and teachers at all times. At all times. And you know, one of the parts of your message and your brand that you have out there is specifically for men of color, right? So that's part of what. You put out there and I'm, I guess I'm curious, and I love that you have the line underneath and for the rest of y'all too, so I appreciate that. That's a, it's, kind of the specific and broad, There's a target market and we're also open and I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit about those identities you and I are very different in that I am. A cis white, straight male, born on third base in New England to educated parents. You know, I just feel like there's all this privilege and I'm doing my best to unlearn and strip away the supremacy, the patriarchy, the capitalistic tendencies that are trained, conditioned into me. So I'm just curious to hear you, if you're willing to just share some of your ultimately life experience and what holding some of the these identities is like and. You know, help me continue to strip away some of my ignorance as as far as you're willing to, cause it's also not your job. I'm doing my best to educate myself.

Mario Jovan: 6:16

No, that's true. I agree. It's not my job to be able to strip those things away. It's not my job, but obviously it's not no one's job to do anything, but it is part of our work to continue to tell our story and how you. Interpret my story, how you take in my story and utilize it, to help you grow or understand a different perspective is the work that you have to do. So inevitably, like I could never do the work for you, right? And I always think about that. I could. Provide you with resources, but you have to do the thinking. so my journey starts, really with my identity, black, queer male. and you know, in June our, the podcast I Was doing, was with my father and we talk about, queer issues and things like that in, in terms of, him raising me. And so if you want to hear all of that story, you could listen to all of the, the other pieces, which has been great.

Peter Callahan: 7:15

Was he

Mario Jovan: 7:16

I

Peter Callahan: 7:16

accepting Mark? That's just the one, you know, we'll go back. I've started listening to those, but yeah.

Mario Jovan: 7:21

Yeah, like he is, and one of the things that he talks about was that, you know, these three strikes, kind of like against, me as a person, And. When you think about white, cisgender male, there's typically like no strikes against your life, but when you think about black, queer male, being black, being a black male, being queer, like are strikes against you. And you have to figure out how to navigate the world in a way where you. Know that it's gonna be harder for you to live out your purpose, but you still do it. And so the question that you shared around, how, you know, maybe there might be white men that might be uncomfortable, to even join the space to say this for men of color, let's add everybody else, for the rest of y'all too, It's about storytelling and that's the beginning piece, It's about are you willing to hear my story as much as I've ha have heard yours? And I think that's the difference, is that we have heard so many white male stories, we need to hear more. We need to hear more white men talk and speak, because we need to hear your perspective. We need to hear what, you know, a different perspective. Like you just said it, how you're trying to unpack certain things. We don't hear enough of that. And then the second thing is how do we provide more opportunities for us to hear men of color stories? And so I'm excited about getting to hear your story. I'm excited about hearing even more stories. We're not a monolith, no one is. there's not enough stories in the world. And so I think for us to have that introduction, we must begin with storytelling.

Peter Callahan: 8:58

Storytelling absolutely. And as we both are also on these two topics, what we haven't touched on yet is leadership and mindfulness as well. You know, I didn't even, I'd love to get into mindfulness to some degree cause I know it's really near and dear the practice to both of our hearts. But even just starting with leadership, one of the experiences I have working with many different leaders is this desire for efficiency and for moving quickly. And I couldn't agree more with you on hearing stories. To acknowledge the value of stories and the. The return on investment, We're leaders. We, we need to be effective to some degree, be aware of all of the variables that we're trying to hold and move things forward and create value in the world. And, you know, reciprocity, giving and receiving love at the base level to think of it. And stories can just feel inefficient, right? Like, oh, I've gotta take this time. First I think of my own story, or sit here and actually pay attention and listen to someone else's story. Like I, that's stuff I need to get done. Versus, oh, this is extremely valuable time spent for me, for this person, for our relationship together, for our ability to continue to heal and be of service in the world.

Detached audio: 10:10

Mm.

Peter Callahan: 10:11

do you speak to folks who might not value storytelling in the same way that you do?

Mario Jovan: 10:17

This is why it's so good to have Coaches on a podcast together, having conversation because that's what makes it like so cool is like our ability, I mean, we're trained to ask, good questions. that's the iron sharpening so that, such a good question immediately what I think about is that it is rooted in trust. how do we. Trust ourselves. so when you neglect to tell your story, it's usually tied to do you trust yourself to put your story out in a world where people, and actually I'm gonna take it a step back to talk about inviting in. I, I love this term because that's something that we've been using in a, in the LGBTQIA plus community is inviting in. and it was started by Darnell Moore. no Ashes in the Fire. It's the name of his book. Such a great introduction to inviting in. But the concept is that we all have inviting game moments, that we all have a part of our life that we have been hiding. And so when we have this moment where we want to invite folks in and to talk about these experiences, that takes vulnerability. That takes a story to share. And so it descenters this idea of, oh, I'm coming out because there's this norm, right? And if we continue to normalize all of these, traditional things like straights, cisgender, white male, then anything other than that, you always, you know, this taboo. And so if everybody began to have an inviting moment, and we utilize that language, then. Now we are creating trust within ourselves that I invite you in and that therefore I trust you to respect my story. And if you do anything that it's not kind right or it's not loving, if you do? anything that's not loving, me, I have permission to invite you out, as well. And that's the cool part as well, so that it begins with trust. I have to trust myself. And I have to trust other people, that I am engaging. and when it comes to storytelling,

Peter Callahan: 12:26

Absolutely Mario's leading with trust,

Mario Jovan: 12:29

yeah.

Peter Callahan: 12:29

leading, and I often think of leadership as. Having the courage to go first, to extend trust first, right? To have some amount of vulnerability. You know, we, I know we both love Brene Brown. She often talks about, not wearing your heart on your sleeve, but sharing enough to begin to create that trust. And that trust is built with small moments over time. And we can have the courage to offer up enough trust to share some of our stories, see how someone responds, and that will either, Create more space, or like you said, maybe retract sort of now there's a new invitation of, you know, I'm not feeling really safe or comfortable in this conversation and this is why I love nonviolent communication and just learning how to speak skillfully so that we can make these offers and requests and put up boundaries in a way that doesn't continue to, to do harm that hopefully can at least stop the, the pain or the harm in its tracks and. I'm curious, Mario, just to hear a little bit and folks can hear about the origin of some of your messy roots and your conversations with your dad. Maybe you could meet us a little bit later in life where this trust started to develop, and I'm just thinking of how you got into mindfulness and leadership and coaching and maybe first. Beginning to trust yourself and having this courage. Where does this come from for you?

Mario Jovan: 13:51

You know. Ooh, that's, that's really good. I'm gonna keep on saying it's good. it is, all Of these questions are gonna be good. man, I think there's so many different checkpoints, could think about when I became a teacher, that. It helped me to really, that was a pivotal point in my twenties that helped me to actually trust myself, I had to trust myself in order for the, my students to trust me. And then I was a seventh grade English single arts teacher, so I had to trust myself for students to trust me, um, and for me to establish relationships with them. I mean, that was a big thing. I could look at my teens when I had chosen to. Really just be, you know, my myself, in terms of being a tennis player, I was the only black. Person primarily that was playing tennis. Whenever I go to tennis camps, I was the only black person. and so I learned very quickly what it was like to be considered other. I remember one time in tennis, I was listening to art at tennis camp. I was listening to r and b music. that was my thing. but majority of. my tennis friends that I went to tennis camp with who again were white, they were listening to

Peter Callahan: 15:06

Lincoln

Mario Jovan: 15:07

Blink 180 2. Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'm trying to think what else was out as well. Avil Levine, all of those people and I wasn't listening to them. and that was the first time I realized culturally that there was something different that was outside of my neighborhood. because you do it, you know, social media didn't exist at that time. And I do think with social media, definitely even with. TV and things like that and access to YouTube. I think there's a clash of so many different cultures and for folks to be able to know something different. I didn't know anything different. Were those kids, know, in my teens and in middle school ages, were they accepting to my music? No, but I was to theirs, which was very interesting. because they represent the majority. They didn't have to. Fit in, you know what I mean? This was in Earl, this was Oberlin, Ohio. and yeah, I went to ob uh, Oberlin Tennis Camp. I don't know the years though, but I think it's super interesting because the way that we integrate ourselves into into community is super, super important. and who has the, who's at the gate? Yeah, like who's at the gate that can determine whether I have to learn about you and whether you have, or you have to learn about me. And it needs to be both, right? I think in 2020 was the latest pivotal, for me, helped me to gain that love of authenticity. I think it was a collective trauma, whether you acknowledge it or not, with. COVID as well as, the racial uprising. This was something that was brewing, both was brewing for a minute, right? It just didn't happen overnight. It gradually happened over time. And so I was, uh, in Minneapolis where George Floyd, was murdered. And that right there was a. Pivotal moment because we were all in isolation during that time. Remember that was 2020, that was during the summertime we was in, we was at the pool at the height of COVID, you know, looking at the death toll. and we had to typically just individual trauma and, you know, mindfulness, you know, to do it collectively. It's really the way to go, because it helps. We could hold each other's in Christianity. Maybe you hold each other's cross or hold each other's burden, the weight on each other's shoulder. But when you're in quarantine six feet apart from each other, have to hold that by yourself. And it was an additional weight that had to be held as a person of color, knowing that the death toll numbers were higher. For us as well as even the police brutality and feeling that pain. that was big. And I think that that moment helped me to further go into mindfulness. And working with male teachers of color, they also had to go into schools. They had to teach students online for an entire year and a half, and majority of the reason why, why folks became teachers, particularly a lot of people of color, is because of the connections that they're able to have with kids. And it seemed like that they were losing kids, that they were missing kids. Kids may or may not, you know, show up on a Zoom. The disparities were real around who had technology and who didn't. You could see the background of people's homes now, and everything became real for folks. So I was supporting first responders at that time, which was teachers that helped me to really push my mindfulness. I got my yoga certificate during Covid. I got my mindfulness certificate during Covid. I got my culture certificate during Covid. I just got all of these. I was like, okay, I need to like, do all of the things because this is so needed and I see somewhat of the direction that I want to go, and that was the messiness I wanted to get down deep in the dirt with folks and help individuals unpack. Really grow their roots. You know, we all start off as a seed. The first thing that grows from that seed is the roots. And if the roots is not strong, then a seed cannot even create a stem and then create, leaves their fruit. If it's a vegetable, I'm looking outside of my, window, looking at my patio, have tomatoes growing and banana peppers and all of those things is growing right now. Strawberries and everything starts with a seed, you know, um, but, and, and then those roots, but we rarely see the roots. We see the fruits of the roots labor, but the roots is not sucking those things in. Then the planet's not getting nourishment. So we had to uproot everything that we knew about America. Which we already kind of knew as people of color, and so that's where to say I, that, that's a long response. I'm sorry, but like that's how I see it right now is just man, there's, I think there's checkpoints in folks' lives to say, okay, this happened to me. How do I respond to it? Do I go into a shell or do I decide to still be my true, authentic self? That might take a couple of months. Maybe you do wanna go into a show. You know, I love, last thing I'll say around this is I was listening to, humans of New York. I love that Instagram. and somebody, the interviewer asked this person, what have you experienced lately? a guy said that, he experienced, His wife, I think, and mother dying like months apart from each other. And they said, what is the best advice you got lately? and he went to a therapist. He went to a therapist and a therapist. he shared this and he said, I just wanna just. Break down and the therapist respond to him and said, you have every right to break down and go crazy just as long as you come back from it. And I thought that was beautiful because sometimes we do need to just lose it to come back, you know? And to receive that permission to hear that when that, you know, that guy said to receive that permission was everything for him. It really, really helped him. To show up that the way that he, he needed to and get everything out. And I think some of us just need that and then utilize mindfulness to come on back.

Peter Callahan: 21:35

Absolutely Marty, that is mindfulness. To me, that is mindfulness. It's, it's being with whatever is here, right? Presence means being real. And this is what's happening right now. And I think for me as a coach, that's so much of what I'm trying to do is create the space to invite people to be messy to. It's okay not to be okay. Right. And to sit in our discomfort. Trusting that turning toward being with whatever is happening is much more likely to support our growth and our healing and our connection to ourselves and each other than to just paper over it, push it away, pretend it's not happening, which is all fear based, which to me is what's happening largely in this country. Like you said, we all. Woke up to a different degree around the harm that was happening, and I, for one, felt it deeply, I think as a testament to my practice,

Detached audio: 22:30

Mm-hmm.

Peter Callahan: 22:30

it broke my heart to to hear more and see the video with George Floyd. And you know, I was already reading some Ebra Max Kendi and my grandmother's hands and. Really trying to wrap my head around these things. My wife is far ahead of me in this realm, waking up and, and I felt it really deeply, and I was privileged enough to be invited to facilitate a breaking white silence affinity group for a little while and just help white folks sit with it. While there was another group that's through Hartford Ensemble, there's a, there's another, you know, people of color group, affinity group that was happening at the same time. And yeah, just so many, so many. Opportunities to open up and yet, you know, the world, there's so much fear that it also can bring up this defensiveness. Right? And this is where I love not being against others to the greater we can set boundaries. It could be really clear on what our values are and what's important without needing to. Be forcefully against anyone. I think people on both sides, the right and the left, who are hyper tribalized stacking all these identities. You're either this or you're that. And I'm not open to listening to anything I disagree with is doing immense harm and it's creating no space for understanding and connection. You know I shared the tick not Hanh quote with you. Maybe I'll put it in here now, Mario. So tick not Han is a Vietnamese teacher and activist passed away recently. And he, he has this quote that I love where he says, we are here to awaken from our illusion of separateness. And I really believe that it's an illusion and that the more we can unlearn and strip away all these things that have gotten in the way of our hearts and really f reconnect to our roots, to your point, and, and how interconnected we all are, it just creates much more space for, for connection and for wellbeing and. To listen to our hearts and be authentic and honest with ourselves rather than just operate, trying to keep up with the Joneses and let fear run our lives. I don't know. I know this is a little abstract, but it's certainly what I'm trying to do.

Mario Jovan: 24:34

No, it's, so good. No, it's so good. I use, and, Help folks to become coaches. I, that's my favorite. I love the teaching part. I realized I liked teaching. I just didn't like teaching in a traditional sense. I like, the pastoral care. I just didn't like the pastoral care in the traditional sense. so kabana lot that, Hey, I'm a coach. and I, I love that on Han's work. I didn't know he recently passed, so That's so interesting. It hit me and it's so inter, it's, I, I don't know if you know this it was like, you know, we are on camera. and so my light from my plant, um, just came on because there. Tight. And so I didn't want you to think that like, all of a sudden it's like I don't know if you notice, like this bright light just started showing up on my face. Cause it, it, I was like, so I just moved in little bit. I was like, I don't want him to think that, like the ghost or the spirit of it just show up and, and this space in his room, I, I invited in, but it literally, as soon as you got done with, was. I was like, oh my God. He probably thinks I'm really wooing now

Peter Callahan: 25:41

No, it's, it's beautiful. That's, yeah, that reminds me of the Martin Luther King Jr. Court. One of my favorites. I'm, no, I'm sure you know it. Darkness cannot drive out. Darkness. Only light can

Detached audio: 25:52

Only

Peter Callahan: 25:52

right? Hate cannot drive out. Hate. Only love can do that. So I just assumed that was your light coming through my friend.

Detached audio: 26:00

Yes. And that's the thing that I thought was very good about, um, your sub, uh, line for your podcast. that leading with love, piece and how many. men don't do that, right? Like, how many men choose to not lead, um, with love? Instead we lead with power

Peter Callahan: 26:19

afraid.

Mario Jovan: 26:19

and so afraid. And if, and, and it's, it's like if we could lead with power, then it, it puts the mask on, right? I think there is a lot that we have to do in terms of how we raise men. and I still do think that we're moving the needle forward. But then at the same time, you know you're doing something right. Actually it may be the spirit of thick, nah, hand just came to me cuz I was about to say something different. but you know, you're doing something right when there is opposition, you know what I mean? right now there's a lot of opposition around, really clear cut lines of what a man is and what a woman is. You see that with trans rights, type of thing. And that's just not how life is. Life does not have to be that way, you know? we get to choose how we, want to show up. And right now, when we look at, you know, I know it's a sensitive topic, but when we do look at the shootings that happen in schools, overwhelmingly white man, So clearly we are doing something wrong, but nobody is willing to talk about it. actually, let me even take that back. There are folks that are willing to talk about it. on the national platform, we are seeing opposition, but in, in local circles and in circles that I have the privilege of being in, I am here and white man talk about we need to have conversations about emotions. We need to have conversations about love. What does it look like? How to apologize when you're wrong, cuz you're gonna get it wrong. All of us are gonna get it wrong and it has to be that grace, and that's why I believe that. You know, this healing work, this development work has to happen in more one-on-one settings. It has to happen more, in conversations and connecting with people. And it starts with storytelling. But that leading with love is man, I, I call it hard work. instead of hard work. And that's my favorite. and I got that from a black woman Erin Barksdale. she is a, principal here at Charlotte. And I actually had worked for her when she was an assistant principal. I was a teacher at the time, and she said one of her first words was, this is not hard work. This is hard work because we leave with our heart. and it is something that we must continue to reflect on and think about as man. And let me tell you as man of color, it's even more work because the complex piece about it is that we adopted white patriarchy. Which is a big thing, right? bell Hooks book, Ooh, man, you could go heavy on all the things. the Will to Change by Bell Hooks is all about men transitioning from power to love. that book is hard to read. It's a hard read because you literally have to understand how you're showing up in your. Patriarchy in which you have chosen to adopt, and your story begins there. So that's, that's, that's that piece. Yeah. I I like, I love, doing that hard work and I love doing it with men. And so even a, you know, I have a, mindfulness, leadership retreat for men of color more specifically, so that we could have these conversations in person, but I do'em even online as well and go deep into it. It gets real and you have to sit with yourself. But all of those retreats start with a story yourself. Leading with love. How do we connect and a diversity with that? Because you, we have trans men, we have queer men, we have, cisgender men all come into together to say, oh man, like we talked about Dr. Brene Brown as well. Once you, I love when she say, once you hear somebody's story, you can no longer ignore it.

Peter Callahan: 30:07

yes.

Detached audio: 30:07

Or you are ignorant, you know? So I think that's, that's a

Peter Callahan: 30:10

Yes. And it's hard to hate up close, right? You hear of all these clan members who have been converted by just listening, being open to, and taking in these stories. And I'd love to go back to your story a little bit, Mari, if you're up for it. I really appreciate everything you're saying and, you know, acknowledging it's harder for, for people of color in general, for black men specifically, and yet they're not the ones. Who are translating that pain, and I love this phrase, pain that isn't transformed is transferred, right? Whenever we lash out at someone, we're projecting some wound in ourselves onto them rather than, you know, and it's, this is what mindfulness helps us do. Recognize what's happening underneath so that we can choose our response, respond instead of react. But it's still young white men who are choosing to react in this way and try and meet their underlying needs. Through this violence, and yet from the objective data that I can take in, they, we have it much better than black men. So it's so interesting that, and I'm going back to your story and sort of thinking of our nervous systems, right, as sort of how trauma comes in and where it's held. You know, the body keeps the score. And I'm just wondering just from your experience, what it was like to, like, how did you relate to being. The only black man at tennis camp like that's for the record. I would've been jamming with you on the r and b for sure. I felt really weird being a white guy who just loved hip hop growing up, and I, like, I tried to move away from it in my twenties and absolutely came right back. Like, I just loved Tupac. Biggie Dre, Jay-Z. it resonates with me, I think because of the courage and the realness and the vulnerability. It's the only reason Eminem's the only white rapper I like. Cause he's so vulnerable. Like, here, tell these people something they don't know about me. You know? So just this, but, but what was that like for you and your nervous? Like how did you relate to that and how did it not overwhelm you or make you just want to be somewhere with your peers rather than around all these white people?

Mario Jovan: 32:16

That is so real. Wow. that's so good. I, I, I wanna, I'm, I'm thinking about, So it's so interesting because in my neighborhood, I was ostracized because I played tennis. And so then in tennis camp I was ostracized because I was black. So I think growing up,

Peter Callahan: 32:35

hadn't even come out yet, right?

Mario Jovan: 32:37

No, I didn't come out till 25 years old. but my dad said he knew the whole time, that was on the podcast. That was so funny. But, and that was my first time hearing from my dad. but Yeah. I think looking at that, you know, I, I, I played in two on two tennis courts and it was really interesting off of Lake Shore. So in Cleveland, Ohio. So for context off of Lake Shore, on, I grew up on Grove Wood and so I went to Humphrey Park in that neighborhood. I was the only black person that played tennis, and this is a black neighborhood. Everybody else played baseball, so this is the street that I grew up on. But then if we got on the, in a car roll, about 15 minutes closer towards downtown and got off on Martin Luther King Street. I got to Rockefeller, uh, which is in university area in Cleveland. Rockefeller is a historically black, known to be tennis court area. My dad played tennis in that area growing up. My godfather did. And so I lived in two worlds, even in tennis, before even going to tennis camps. Cause I started at eight years old. My first time playing tennis at first time ever hitting a ball was at Rockefeller. because of my address when I was in the National Junior Tennis League, they, I had to play tennis at Humphrey Park where I was the only black person, white people. Who live in pockets of that area played at Humphrey Park. Even though Humphrey Park was in a black neighborhood, they would travel to Humphrey Park to get to play tennis, um, as a part of National Junior Tennis League in Cleveland. So I was still the only black person. Playing tennis in a black neighborhood, So I was used to that. So I, I think it was because I seen so much, I, I've been able, so I've had to always bounce into these different areas, but Rockefeller Park was my favorite one. Still to this day is my favorite neighborhood to be in, in Cleveland, Ohio. I love, and it's so Cool. because Rockefeller, like going Rockefeller Park sits off of Martin Luther King. Drive. and that's my favorite street to drive down because every country is represented on this street. They have a flag. Statues for every country. Everybody got their own back in 2016, I believe, I think it was before, Yeah. it was 2016. They did, they revamped the African American one. Um, they put the Pan-African flag and they created this nu it's so beautiful. You know, you could see the different cultures, um, and I think it's only the countries that's representing in. Cleveland by a certain percentage. So once you get that certain percentage, you get a monument. Um, I mean, these monuments are beautiful. I'm sitting and people walk on these streets, so I, I always love culture and love people, and every time I go down that street, it just reminds me like how blessed Anar was to play tennis on the street. And it just was a forecasting of what I was gonna do with. My life. You know, I've always been this person that loved to coach people, but I didn't know it was coaching. I just loved to ask questions and support them. Um, in a sense, I would use the word help them back then. Right. now I don't necessarily use the word help cuz they helped them themselves. I just offer, know, some type of, uh, GPS and roadmap to tell him maybe you wanna go left. but other than that, I think it was that growing up. Constantly, I've always been other, so I had No, choice but to be my authentic self. You know, when I was holding a tennis racket, my friends were holding baseball bats. And then once I, not to hit me but to play baseball, cuz that sounds bad, uh, and then going to. It's interesting cuz leaving outta Cleveland and going to school at the University of Cincinnati, I found out that there was majority black males. Didn't not play baseball and see for in my neighborhood growing up, that's what black males did. It was baseball. Straight up it was basketball. Yeah. Okay. We'll play basketball in terms of like, you know, Or football in terms of just for fun. But baseball was what they had actually like did the league and stuff. But here's the tricker too. What's funny, I just thought about this and in wintertime, you know, baseball in tennis is not happening. And I don't know if my dad did. I maybe I, I, you know, maybe I do a part two with my dad. I ask him this question, but my dad, On both sides of my family, they're bowling people and so they have a junior bowling lead, at Palisades in Cleveland on Saturdays. And so my dad created a bowling lead, because a lot of the fathers in the neighborhood are also bowl. And so whether you play tennis or baseball, we did have some basketball people and football people. We all came together though. On a bowling team on Saturday mornings. So that's kind of funny. And I think that's where Bridge says, so that's That You got me thinking a lot stuff, which is

Peter Callahan: 37:53

great. I really appreciate it. I really, and if you don't mind me continuing down, you prompted so many other thoughts for me, but just as a way of, cuz these conversations aren't happening all the time and I've, I've been through a bunch of trainings and I've done some reading and I'm very early in my journey still Mario. But just understanding some of these terms, two of which are coming to mind that I'm just curious your experience with. Cause I heard you really speak to. Doing your best to be authentic, even as a teenager and having these experiences of sort of having these different communities in the same area in your neighborhood and being able to. Be authentic, and I hear you expressing gratitude. I'm curious how in touch with that gratitude and authenticity you were then. Because there's these experiences, we often call them microaggressions. I prefer the term aggressions, just things that are happening. And as an example, I had a time when I was on a train to New York City from Connecticut here, and there was a person of color. I didn't even get a full look at him, but he was kind of standing behind me in the seat that I was sitting in. I just wound up like reaching for, I keep a pocket knife in my pocket and I just kinda reached for my knife and put my hand on it. Not even thinking about it, it just kind of happened subconsciously. And he said something to me, he's like, man, what's your problem? Like, I'm just standing here. I'm not threatening you. Like, what's your deal? And I was like, oh, you know, I kind of got defensive. I was like, oh, what are you talking about? But as soon as I recognized, I was like, oh yeah. I definitely did that unconsciously. Look for this. So these, these little microaggressions, these examples of racism that are still in me, that are baked into us unconsciously come across all the time. And I'm just thinking of that and code switching and having to speak more eloquently or you know, all these words that wind up being really offensive but that. Can often keep you safe. And you know, I, I've heard of a lot of black fathers telling their children do not go playing outside at night. Like, you just are not allowed to be running around outdoors in the nighttime. That's extremely dangerous. Versus, you know, for a white kid at eight o'clock in the summer, it's no big deal. So I'm just curious, those code switching microaggression experiences, like how frequent were like, how did that affect you?

Mario Jovan: 39:56

Yeah. Ooh, that's so good. one, I mean, vulnerable moment of what you're sharing around, you know, the, the pocket knife situation. I mean, and these things are real, and those things actually do happen to us. Um, it could, it stains us, you know what I mean? as it relates to. The code switching. It was very interesting. It was very interesting because well, let me go back to authenticity. Growing up, I think that I didn't know it was authenticity at the time. I was also, Trying. I was a rebel. I think that's really my leading thing. I wasn't even a rebel church. We didn't have a youth choir in church. I was like, I'm gonna lead it, but I'm gonna go against the pass on everything that he thinks that needs to be true about it. And so like, we wasn't supposed to really be dancing, you know? as we were singing because he came from a Jehovah in his background into Christianity, we danced. I didn't care. Like it was just stuff like that. I've always been that way. I think over time I figured out what I needed to actually fight for and what I didn't need to fight for. But code switching is a big thing. consider it a privilege now. But I don't know how much I actually, I think I, we do it all the time. I, I'm, I guess I'm just not aware of it. What's funny is code switching actually the lack of code switching is what helped me to actually, start my entrepreneurship career and journey. was in Teach for America, as a seventh grade English language arts teacher. My second year, I wanted to become a recruiter for T F A. They had already been using my face for everything, still used my face for everything, um, And so those pictures are like over 10 years old. Thank God I look the same. but when I applied, I got to the final round of being a recruiter. I really wanted to recruit because I wanted to support men of color. the time I got, uh, to the final interview, um, I kind of felt something different. Um, In their tone and actions with certain interviews. Um, and then it was confirmed when I actually, you know, closed out the interview. and I got the call that I didn't get the job and, and I asked for feedback. And the feedback was that I didn't know how to properly code switch that. And this was a white woman telling me this, that I did, that they believed that I wasn't great at code switch and they believed that I'd be able to help people to get. into education as far as wanting to, uh, become educators and motivating them around our kids. But as far as talking to deans and presidents and, you know, uh, professors, I wouldn't. Be good at doing that because I didn't know how to code switch. And so that eloquent language, had, it had hurt me because I, I took speech in school growing up. I wasn't the best with phonics actually, when I found I was gonna be teachers of great English language Arts honors at that, I was very nervous because I wasn't the best. Um, I have dyslexia through adhd, and I found out all of those things actually helped me to be. The best person to, uh, empathize with somebody who may struggle with telling their story or have an ability to hear stories. I feel like, um, and I was saying this, sharing this with one of my, Former friends, I, I told him that I felt like in 2020 I learned how to read for real, for, and obviously I, I had already taught, I had a multimillion dollar, uh, nonprofit at this time. but reading leisurely was not necessarily like a true thing. Definitely like fictional books, being able to pick up a book and actually read just for the fun of it. I felt like I was entering a new world. I could not put a, put a book down. I was reading so many books so fast because I also learned how to, um, read, I use Audible, right? Like, um, as having dyslexia with having a short, attention span, to, um, adhd, you know, having the book in my hand in addition to listening to the book, through Audible has helped me like crazy. And so that's something that I am so grateful that I have been able to actually do. And that helped me to own my story, going back to story and become even more authentic and recognize that this is a gift to be able to relate to people. And the language that I use is a gift. And maybe I'm close switching. I believe I am because we're all, we all do a love of code switching. I mean, from talking to elders, to a child, to your peers, all of us. A code switching black people. There's a cost to us with code switching. Without code switching, that could prevent us from, that has prevented us from getting certain jobs access to certain Do we have getting certain jobs? Like, uh, just I said, access to certain spaces. and it's just real and we cannot say it enough, right? Like our faces literally could turn blue. of how often we have to honestly say it over and over again. But it's still good to be able to, we have to, we have to say it. We have to say

Peter Callahan: 45:10

Yeah. Thank you so much for, for sharing all that, man. That's the relatability I'm hearing there. You said there's a cost

Mario Jovan: 45:17

Yeah.

Peter Callahan: 45:18

to not code switching. I'm also hearing through the story you shared from Teach for America, that There's also a cost to code switching because then you become less relatable to those who your authentic approach to speaking and showing up might be most relatable. Like I just shared, uh, I've heard of research where. Teachers, I shared this on an episode recently, but teachers who are more relatable are far more effective. Students learn much more from those who they relate to than those who might technically have more skills in teaching. And it's just, it's just this fascinating paradox of trying to exist in this, again, like supremacist, patriarchal world of like, all right, which, Which do I go with? Do I just try and be myself or do I try and fit in and go along and I'm hearing you? You know this word harmony over balance. I'm hearing you doing your best to harmonize both of those while maintaining honesty with yourself. Doing your best to be as real as you can. Acknowledging like, yeah, we're all code switching to some degree. Are we doing it for the benefit of others? I also love this term authentic attunement. I'm gonna both be myself. And I'm gonna attune to the human in front of me. Neither one is priority. I'm gonna do my best to hold both of these things like I'm gonna be me and I'm gonna do my best to not harm you and to be as relatable to you as possible. I can't do that until I get to know you a little bit. I can try by assuming when I look at you, but we all know how fraught that can be, right? So asking questions, getting to know someone, and I love asking the question. How are you and what do you need? My favorite leadership questions, what are you working on and how can I help? Or how are you showing up today and what do you need in order to feel okay to be successful?

Mario Jovan: 47:10

Yeah. My favorite question is a coach

Peter Callahan: 47:12

Yeah. So

Mario Jovan: 47:14

Wow.

Peter Callahan: 47:15

anyway, all that say, thank you, man. Yeah. What's coming up for you?

Mario Jovan: 47:18

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. I, I, I think that, Again, my biggest thing is that I love, again, going back to storytelling, that is my biggest piece because it starts with that. I'm realizing the importance of that over and over and over again. Why that is literally so important for us to go with that. We have to, we literally have to, if not, you know, us as people can perish, you know, we have to. And I think we have more access to stories as

Peter Callahan: 47:53

Yes.

Mario Jovan: 47:55

We have more access to, to be able to tell stories. So yeah, it's hitting me today, more than ever to think about what that looks like. So Thank you

Peter Callahan: 48:05

Of course. Thank you Mario. Thank you. And I've got 20 other questions of curiosity that are coming to my mind and you know, for the sake of time, I think we will, we'll save and table some of those. I wonder.

Mario Jovan: 48:19

we

Peter Callahan: 48:19

I wonder if there's any teaser for you, has anything come up for you that may, you may wanna dig in with me a little bit deeper. What, where, where might we go in the next conversation? Where, what's,

Mario Jovan: 48:30

I where we, I. think where we're going is how. What hit me is proximity, and I'm wondering how technology has created a false proximity and how it's created a, a true proximity. I feel proximate to you. I don't know how tall you are. I don't know how you walk. I don't know if your best stink because

Peter Callahan: 48:53

it's good. Good chance

Mario Jovan: 48:55

Oh my God. Cause, cause, uh, we have never been in the same space. Physically, but I do feel proximate to you. I think that proximity, when you talked about proximity to the problem, proximity to a person, that that right there has truly, truly helped me to recognize that. Actually is, this is, this is literally what I need to be. I, we need to, we need to really be thinking about proximity. We need to think about technology and how it is impacting the way that we tell our story and the way that we're able to be proximate to one another, positive or negative. Everybody's talking about ai. We'll probably talk a little bit about AI and storytelling, and it's ability to impact the way that Yeah. And impact the way that people are seeing it. I think how, as we close, we can no longer, I think one of the things that's really happening as we, as we are closing, I think what we'll probably get to next week is that, um, I think the true reality. Is that because during covid, and the racial upright, we were sitting with so many things we could no longer ignore the true story of what was happening. This true story, that of what was going on is sitting right in front of our face. We could no longer tell a false narrative. And I think as we are hearing book bands and things like that, that's happening, we're we are slowly and slowly who is managing our story, who is have the ability to tell our story? Because with social media is more free somewhat cuz we have algorithms, free reign. For folks to be able to you know, I know my story. You're able to get it directly from me, so that's where I think we'll probably go to our proximity.

Peter Callahan: 50:53

yes, absolutely not all. I'm, I'm so on board, and again, hopefully you don't even have to wait until next week. You can just. End this. I think we could just end it right there. We'll hop over and then we're, we're just gonna keep, keep this conversation going on on the other channel and maybe I'll cut this one out and share it in the next episode, Mario, but I keep coming back to this James Baldwin quote too that I absolutely love that you just remind me of so often as you're talking, I might not get it perfectly here, but it's something around, not everything that is faced can be changed. But nothing can be changed until it's faced.

Mario Jovan: 51:31

If it's

Peter Callahan: 51:31

And that's what, I'm just so grateful for your willingness to face these things with me and to just get messy a little bit and have these conversations and

Mario Jovan: 51:39

Get messy. Let's do

Peter Callahan: 51:40

So thank you so much for today, Mario. It's Yeah, it's been an honor.

Mario Jovan: 51:44

Awesome. Let's make this thing happen. Part two

Peter Callahan: 51:47

coming soon. a lot, man. Hmm. So much love. Thank you so much to Mario for being with me for this conversation. And thank you to you for joining us on this episode of the fresh perspectives podcast. If you enjoyed it and found it useful. I would be grateful if you'd be willing to take a moment to subscribe. Offer any feedback and of course, share it with a friend. If you think they might benefit from listening. Thanks so much for your curiosity. Wishing you compassion and courage.