The Strange Attractor
The Strange Attractor
Rethinking Design, Systems & the Future of Materials with Sarah D'Sylva from Hyloh | #18
What if the issue isn’t the material itself, but the system wrapped around it?
In this conversation, we jump straight into the uncomfortable truth that there are no sustainable materials – only better choices made in context. Joining us is designer and Halo co-founder Sarah de Silva, as we unpack how coatings, building codes, logistics, incentives and infrastructure can quickly turn a ‘green’ option into a risky one. We explore how designers and decision-makers can find their way back to integrity, through clear end-of-life thinking, transparency and honest trade-offs.
We move beyond slogans and into what actually works. Think material passports that track what things are made of and where they’ve been. Think facade-as-a-service and take-back models that plan for recovery from day one. Think internal marketplaces that keep fit-out and retail materials circulating rather than sending them to landfill. We dig into why paper-versus-plastic isn’t a morality tale, when mono-material PET can outperform fibre, and why local infrastructure often decides the real-world outcome.
Place matters, and Australia has a rare opportunity right now. We talk bioregional manufacturing, smarter import standards, and pairing Indigenous knowledge with processing close to feedstocks. From fast-growing kelp to hemp, we highlight materials with outsized potential when paired with circular systems, and get real about what actually drives change within organisations: risk, talent and resilience.
If you’re working in circular design, packaging, architecture or supply chains, this conversation offers a grounded path from theory to practice. Give it a listen, share it with someone who writes specs, and tell us the one barrier you’d love to see removed next.
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Hello and welcome to The Strange Attractor, an experimental podcast from Colabs, a transdisciplinary innovation hub and biotechnology co-working lab based in Melbourne, Australia. I'm your co-host, Sam Wines, and alongside my co-founder Andrew Gray, we'll delve deep into the intersection of biology, technology, and society through the lens of complexity and systems thinking. Join us on a journey of discovery as we explore how transdisciplinary innovation informed by life's regenerative patterns and processes could help us catalyze the transition towards a thriving future for people and the planet. Alright, here we are. It's like a 31-degree day, so it's super hot. Um Tara, welcome. Thanks for joining us on uh The Strange Attractor. Um yeah, it's been such a pleasure and a privilege watching your work and seeing the things like the material library come to life. Um I've been watching like the like the next gen or bio-led material movement for like five years. Pretty much like before we started Colabs, I was so, so fascinated by all of this. I'm like, why do we not have anyone advocating for that locally? Why do we not have more people trying to make this stuff happen? I even I even looked at this book, um, which has a beautiful ribbon on it. Thank you so much. Um, and I was chatting with I think you know Ollie as well. Uh I was chatting with him about the book. He's like, oh my gosh, yeah, like you know that they're Australian, right? I was like, no way. And then literally, I think a month later we bumped into each other. So um that was very fortuitous. But yeah, would you like to give people a little bit of a background and intro into who you are and why you're so awesome?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. I am Sarah DeSilva. I am one of three female co-founders of a company called Hilo. And we are sort of a decentralized global consultancy working on materials, sustainability, the circular economy, uh, as it relates to design more specifically. So uh I am actually one of two Australians. There's another Australian in the mix, and then she's in Queensland, right?
SPEAKER_02:The material scientist?
SPEAKER_01:She's in Sydney, actually. Oh. But we have Albert, who's in Queensland as well. There's a lot of Australians actually working in this space. Elodie Turneau is the writer, the author of that encyclopedia. It was about 10 years of her life, um, sort of collecting material resources and sort of digesting them and then writing them almost in a journalistic format.
SPEAKER_02:So she is the material lead RD researcher and also co-founder, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, she's a co-founder of um Hilo. And really what happened was we all worked in a material library context. I worked at Material Connection in New York with Fiona, LED worked at Material in France, and uh there was a few other people in the mix originally from Germany as well. And we all sort of got together feeling like a lot of the way materials were positioned was it's a solution. Come to us, we have a silver bullet, we have a solution. You can take this product from being not sustainable to being sustainable. And really, as a collective, we felt like that was a really simplistic um approach to sustainability, and it missed a lot of the complexities and a lot of the understanding of materials and materiality. So we got together and really came up with this premise that there are no sustainable materials, and that's what the company is based on. We are designers and we look at um creative applications of materials based on systemic complex complexities, which is a long introduction, but that's essentially what we do.
SPEAKER_02:I would have been fine if that went for an extra 15 minutes. Um so it feels like, you know, in addition, so the materials encyclopedia came first, or was that during the high low? Because it feels like this has been something that you know built up over quite a while. It seems like it's been percolating, percolating, percolating, and it's nice to see it overflow back into Australia. I feel like you've only been back for two years, three years.
SPEAKER_01:Five years, it's closer to five years when the pandemic hit. I know I always say like when the pandemic came, and that was almost five years ago.
SPEAKER_02:PC or post-C.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, and it doesn't feel that long ago, but I have been back for five years.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh, time flies. Um, so you kind of just briefly touched on this, um, which is something I find really interesting, and I love that you guys call this out straight away. There are no sustainable materials. Why is that?
SPEAKER_01:Materials are kind of like people. Like no one is inherently good or bad, no one is inherently like beautiful or ugly. There are all these moments and these environments which change people, and it really matters how we treat them and who's around them sometimes. So materials are not like this isolated experience. Um, you really have to look at what's surrounding the material. So a material may be from a biogenetic source, uh, but then if I'm a designer and I design, I'm gonna add adhesive, I'm going to paint it with a VOC painting uh coding. There are a lot of things, a lot of ways we can render a material unsustainable, even if it begins that way in its life. So, really what we're looking at is how do we get materials from sort of the most transparent source possible. We really know where it's coming from, we understand the communities around it and who's being impacted. How do we keep that material at its highest resource for as long as possible? So that means all of the resources that go into the modification of that material could be water, could be energy, it could be just loss of materials from waste. Um, and then obviously the carbon transportation is attached to that. And then in its use phase, how are we designing it so it can be used and used again and used for something else and then reused again and reused again? And then finally, at its end of life, we've done nothing to it which renders its end-of-life scenario landfill. It's always got a way to either regenerate back into our earth and replenish our soil, or it's a way for us to um turn it into something else through downcycling all the way to the point where maybe we can harvest energy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, this is an interesting one. Like um, when building a space and trying to build things following something like the Parsons Healthy Materials Lab as inspiration, I quickly realized something that you mentioned there, which is like, okay, cool. So even if you get a cotton fabric by law, they must spray that with a flame retardant, which is probably a P Fuss style material or chemical. Um, you can't you can't you can't avoid that unless you out like go and spec it yourself, but then it might not get ticked off or approved by the builder. So it's interesting to your point around like taking a systems view. It's not always the physical material as well, but actually sometimes like what you could call like the dark matter or like the the the social constructs around it or the political or all of these other, even just like a business, you know, they might have a preferential partnership with a certain supplier, or there might be tax rebates on certain items. Like I imagine having to factor in all of that adds like an like another order of complexity to how you do the life cycle assessment and how you map materials and figure out what's best. But yeah, I'd be curious if anything from that sort of stands out to you to sort of pursue further.
SPEAKER_01:Certainly, we've had these moments where you think you're making a great choice, you're going down that path, um, you're doing your due diligence, and then you run into something like that. Like you mentioned, the PFAS example. And it's heartbreaking. It's really, really devastating because you're trying to do the right thing and you're you're working really hard to make the right choice. And a lot of time it feels like the right choice isn't good enough. Like there's still a trade-off that you have to make.
SPEAKER_02:It's always triage. That's the one thing that I learned with like all materials. It's like, to your point before, like everything has an energy cost, everything like will cost in some way, shape, or form. And you just have to decide in what context is like the most appropriate. Yep. Like, because I always bang on about how crap plastic is. I'm always like, get rid of it. Like just break it down into like its basic molecules and get rid of it because it's toxic and it's terrible. But then, you know, every now and then someone reminds you, like, there's plenty of like bio-based things that are toxic and terrible at certain like quantities. Um, so it is, I don't know where you stand on the plastic versus bio-based, because I know that's a classic sort of divine. That's better. Yeah, because I've seen like there's people um smashing up tetra packs, right? And then using that as a replacement for something like MDF or chipboard. Um, I think they're out of New Zealand. Um, yeah, so with those sorts of things, how do you look at a product like that? Um, and then try and balance something like, okay, well, there's there's gonna be off-gas from something like this. Maybe if we use it on an inner wall and then it's painted with a mineral coat of paint, which doesn't actually have a VOC, then therefore it's trapping it in there. Like, yeah, how do you map or think about all these things? Because it is really nuanced.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It is complicated, and I will answer that with it's a combination of head, heart, and instinct, like gut. Um, a lot of the time we're just following the data. We're we're getting data, and you know, data, you can kind of skew it in any way that makes you feel better about yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01:And really, what we think that we need is this combination of okay, what is the data, what are the certifications, how much information can I get? Based on this information, what is my heart and my gut telling me is the right application for something like this? For that example where we're taking one waste stream and turning it into another said material, I've come up against that in a project where we kind of figure out through our due diligence that it's actually a source of waste that's post-industrial rather than post-consumer, which means it's never gone through a use cycle. It's um it's just kind of a symptom of a higher-up point uh problem, like an upstream problem that we haven't solved yet. So instead of using a material that could get solved another way, we want to find materials that it's the best solution currently.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So, in a way, you're saying like trying your best to mitigate any upstream issues by just selecting something that requires the least amount of manipulation upstream, like whether that is bits or like like as in matter that's gonna be manipulated, or whether it's just lots of effort that's gonna take us to be able to create that energetically. Uh, and you're trying to choose things that also then downstream, once you're done with them, are gonna have like the like at least environmentally benign at a sort of bare minimum.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So, how does that then work with things like plastics or like recycled um PLA or anything like that? Where does that fit into that sort of rubric for you guys?
SPEAKER_01:I've seen this come up in packaging, packaging projects. And usually when brands or companies are trying to get away from a plastic material, what's on the table is usually a fiber-based alternative. So it's a pulp, it's a paper, um, and that's usually on the table. It's it's more culturally acceptable. It's paper, it's good, it's it's from biosources. But when you really look at the trade-offs and the impact transfers that occur, to sort of go through that process, maybe you need more water usage, maybe there's more chemicals that are involved. If you're not close to fiber production, there's a lot more transport that's involved. If you're not looking at um FSE certified sources of wood, that can be complicated and you pay for in the long run. And also maybe your performance isn't as good. So maybe we get food wastage because shelf life isn't as long, or you know, God forbid the customer has a bad experience and you've lost a customer at the end of the day. So these are huge risks that businesses are taking on. And when you weigh that against maybe a monomaterial, like a one type of plastic, a PET, for example, that we know we have local infrastructure to support and recycle. Um, we know it has a few rounds of recyclability and eventually it won't do as well. But we know the barrier properties are there for certain applications, and and while culturally it's frowned upon, it's really hard to explain the other side of that because paper equals good, plastic equals bad, and all of that complexity gets lost in the middle.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh man, um, so many, so many points on that. Um there's like four different things I would like to take this in. I'm trying to think what's the most logical linear one. Um, even my I'm very non-linear when I'm thinking about this sort of stuff. But the to your point, I think like a lot of people think paper, paper good. It's like, yes, it is great, it's from a renewable feedstock, but at the same time, if that's from a tree, like which could have been sequestering carbon, maybe not so great. Might be different if it's hemp or if it's bamboo, something that can grow really quickly, fix um nitrogen or fix carbon into the soil, um, like those sort of things, a little bit different. But if you're cutting down old growth forests, like we have been in Tasmania to create toilet paper, it's like maybe, maybe not, you know. Um, so this is to your point about everything has a trade-off, and unless you can perceive complexity, um that's something you're always gonna have to like struggle with. Is like, how do I frame this? We are not taught how to see things from a perspective of interconnection, we're not taught that everything is connected to everything else, and that you know, there's tens of thousands of people that are involved in making this glass, you know what I mean? And over geological timescales has all of the parts to be able to make this glass, you know, um, come into existence and the six continent supply chain that gets it here, and then the delivery person, and then we use it. So there's there's so like the entire universe can be encapsulated within that glass, and it's the same for materials, um, but I guess we're not taught that through our current educational system, and I and I see this all the time with folks who try and apply a systems view to like a largely linear, reductionist, mechanistic, and very patriarchal late-stage capitalist society. It's like you're literally going completely against the grain when you're trying to get this stuff across the line. I'd love to know how you have found ways to communicate, like communicate complexity in a way that lands with people who are just like, I don't have the time or the effort, like I just need to know is this better than that? Like, give me an answer. Like, how do you like hold their hand and bring them to a place that they can cultivate a deeper understanding? Or do you just not worry about that and provide a narrative that is compelling enough that they choose the right solution? I'd be very curious.
SPEAKER_01:First of all, what a fascinating way to see the world, as you and I do, when you look at a glass to see that. I think that's I think we're the lucky ones that we notice those things and we see the world.
SPEAKER_02:It makes life so much more magical.
SPEAKER_01:It does, and you have a real respect and a real care for things that that come into your sphere and how that affects other people around the world. You know, it's it's as you said, it's all connected, and all of the big issues that I see in the world are all related to resources and power. And you can see that in the political, you know, geologic geopolitical infrastructure we have. And you can see it in a glass. So I think it's really cool, first of all. Um second of all, I've always really seen myself as a translator and being very good at trans translating information and translating knowledge. Uh, I think I'm able to speak to people where they're at. And I didn't really realize that was a skill until recently, to be honest. You get to your 30s and you're like, well, who am I? What am I good at? I think that's it. And I think it's what I've always been quite good at. And I'm not really inventing the will here. Like Indigenous practice knows that storytelling is the key to transferring knowledge, and the way that they were able to be, you know, a sustainable um civilization for so long is because they use storytelling as a tool. So I have really sort of lent into my ability to do that. And rather than communicating or like, you know, the way a marketing company would do, it's more for me about comprehension and helping people understand. And that can mean sometimes uh expecting them to take on more complexity and information and having the belief that they can. Certainly, when you're educating kids, if you believe they're capable of understanding more, they don't.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not worried about kids. I think they most kids are geniuses until we put them through the conventional educational system. Um, but it's the adults who have, you know, maybe hardened the borders of their like cone of cognitive awareness and are maybe less permeable to new information and ways of being, seeing, doing, and thinking in the world. Yeah. It's like those are the ones that are it's so and this is a conversation I have with almost everyone whenever it's like I teach like um living systems thinking, um, and constantly everyone's like, how do we communicate this with people who are maybe not quite um seeing things from that perspective? Because it is such a challenge. I imagine you would have to deal with this, it would be probably the first point that you have to start whenever you're taking anyone on this journey, unless they're already slightly aware of it, like maybe the sustainability teams and stuff at some of these big companies you've worked with, they are aware of it, but then it's like then how do they communicate it to the higher ups that this is something that's important? It's such a it's such a skill set, yeah, being able to communicate complexity and the narrative storytelling um element that you speak of, and yeah, that's that's how oral cultures have survived for so long, and that's actually our main method of making sense of the world is through song, dance, story, and then doing that in relation to others. Um, and it I feel like that is something that the regenerative materials movement has actually done really well, and I believe perhaps better than many of the other domains of science because it is design-led. So I think you like a lot of people are naturally coming into this from a perspective of design thinking, service design, whatever it might be, which actually has to then you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone else. Whereas a lot of science is like being as objective as possible, it's like actually get out of your own shoes. Um, not that you can even do that. Um, you know, it's not really objective, it's intersubjective validation of something. Because we all have to do it through our own subjective experience. But I do wonder if it's because it is a little bit more design-led that it feels like there is more of a narrative and a story there that helps it get across the line. Curious what your sort of thoughts are.
SPEAKER_01:I'm an industrial designer previously, that's my education, so that's the world I come from. And I was I was quite disheartened when I got into the profession, to be honest with you, because it does feel like design has been hijacked by a bigger system. You get taught these, you know, profiles that you create and listening and hearing and all these strategies to create good design, and then you get into The the game, and it's a lot about fulfilling capitalist agenda.
SPEAKER_02:Maximizing shareholder returns, or like yeah, it's like minimize the amount of input, maximise the amount of output. Like so much of that stuff, and to your point, you see it like in all of our architecture has been so dumbed down over the past like hundred years since like the Industrial Revolution. You look at what lampposts, even in Melbourne, look like along like the what's the bridge on at Flinder Street. You look at the intricate details that go into the making of a lamppost, and then you look at any lamppost out there now, and it's like wow, like worlds apart. And it feels like we've lost that appreciation of beauty and the need for that, and how much that is important for our psychology and our well-being. Um, yeah, it's it's so wild to see how yeah, all these different domains, to your point, have become co-opted by this, I guess, this larger system um that we're all a part of. I'm curious, like if you zoom out far enough, what sort of system do you feel like Hilo is a part of, and what are the main systems you feel like you are trying to like play with or dance with to try and facilitate systems change? Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think inherently we are uh disobedient to existing systems, just just by the nature in which we exist. Uh we're 100% women-owned, founded, run. Most of the people who work with us are women. Uh we don't have a headquarters or an official office system. We believe people can roam and travel the world and live and work wherever they'd like to. There's no hierarchy, um, there's pay transparency across all levels. It's really trying to go against every existing structure that doesn't feel right and do it a little bit differently. And as women, we need to be supported in the workplace differently. So I think there is a real emphasis on how we can participate meaningfully. And it doesn't mean being in the same place at the same time every day. Um we are trying to be sort of a slither of society that you know when you're working with us that we have this global connective tissue that's really like wrestling intellectually with one another on these complexity topics. So we disagree a lot of the time, and that's okay. Uh, anyone's allowed to challenge or say they don't know, or we need to figure out something else. That's really the culture of our business. And we include clients in that too. There'll be a lot of times I say to clients, well, this doesn't feel right. Like my gut is telling me there's something else here that we don't know. Let me take it away to my team and figure it out. Uh it's there's no showmanship, I would say, in what we do. And that's why people want to work with us. Everyone that we work with is sort of an A player in their own right. They could probably have their own business, but we're sort of trying to work collectively and collaboratively in an open source way together and share our knowledge and hopefully have a bigger impact. So I think that's really the system we're trying to go against: a way of working that feels more humanistic, that works better with the cycles and the rhythms of that women have. And then also encouraging people just to be excellent at who they are and what they do, and like how do we support you through that? Um, and that's really like the nature of our existence is a little bit of an F you to the current the current structure of work.
SPEAKER_02:I uh I am so for that. Um yeah, I guess a big part of like what when we decided to found Colabs, um, at least a big part of what I was trying to bring to this space is trying to function um not just as an organization, but more like an organism. So it's like, how can we, you know, like a healthy, thriving ecosystem gives more than it takes? How can we find ways in which we give more to people, whether it's like the impact program, we're giving people free lab space, or just helping and going over and above to try and support new ideas that need to see the light of day that might go against, you know, petrochemical companies or other sort of conventional industries which have a bit of a stranglehold on the current system. Um, so yeah, we kind of like intentionally tried to like co-design it as well with members rather than think that we know what's going on. Um, but yeah, it's really exciting to hear you speak to this, and I totally agree. It is like um, I guess you could say conventionally, these are more feminine characteristics. And I think that businesses that embrace those sort of characteristics, whether it's comfortable with not knowing, being comfortable with complexity, whether it is being more relational, mean being more cooperative rather than competitive, um, focusing on the whole rather than the parts, whatever it might be, um, they're actually like I wish everyone would try and uphold or work with those parameters because they're just so much more life-giving and nourishing than if you're just trying to compete and dominate and all of the boring masculine characteristic traits, which in a certain context are good, but the issue is they're not checked or balanced. You need the yin for the yang. Um, so it's nice to hear that you've been able to build something successfully, um, you know, bringing those sort of ways of being to the workplace. Um, yeah, that's something that like I've tried to do even as a male-bodied human. I think you can still do your best to try and endeavor to bring that relationality to how you show up. Um, and yeah, I think that's probably the one of the main reasons why we still exist because we have no right to be doing what we're doing. We don't, you know, we're not a super wealthy organization. We've started from scratch, built everything ourselves, managed to find the right partners. And it's all through trying to find win-win-wins, where you know the members benefit, we benefit, and the other party who comes to the table benefits. And every point along the way, it's having to change the way that people perceive things and trying to go against the conventional approach. Um, so no, I can deeply resonate with trying to create space for that um and trying to do things and think differently. It's um it is really hard, but it's really rewarding when you manage to pull it off and make it work. So that's exciting to hear that things are going well in that regard. Um the materials library, we kind of touched on that. I'd love to hear a little bit more about it, how long it's gonna be kicking around in Sanders Place. Yeah, I'm like, where is it? It's not Sydney. Um, and then um yeah, what I guess what drew inspiration for you to set that up because I know I saw it at Design Week. You were sort of toying with playing with that in the M Pavilion, which was super cool. Um, but it feels like this is a bit of a level up. Is the is the next level trying to do um oh, what's the one in the massive one over in Europe?
SPEAKER_01:That's got the full RD library and there's there's plenty of the materiome, material material district.
SPEAKER_02:Oh now this is gonna annoy me. It feels like it's French.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's like Material is the French one.
SPEAKER_02:Is that the one that has like a full production line and research hub and everything's made out of sustainable materials?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know, to be honest. No.
SPEAKER_02:But anyway, I was thinking more so is that gonna be the next step for you, you know, is it is you're starting, growing, growing, and in is the desire to have like a like a larger like regenerative materials hub or space to be able to showcase?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think what you said with the win-win-win scenario is really what I'm trying to focus on. And how can I give more than I get with the hope that that that reciprocity is there, it exists in our human nature. I I come from materials library world, so does everyone that I work with. And when I moved back to Melbourne, I realized we don't we don't have anything like that here. Uh, there isn't a resource purely dedicated to materials where people can come physically and interact with them, engage with them, understand them, and quite honestly project their projects, their ideas, their businesses onto these like really granular, representative ideas about the circular economy. A lot of the time, sustainability, circular economy, carbon emissions, they're all very esoteric notions. It's very hard to see them tangibly. And materials gives us a really nice chance to do that. So I thought Melbourne deserved a place like that, and I couldn't find one. So I decided to make one. You know, as we're talking about like being feminine and soft and caring, I'm trying to get my yin and yang balanced as well. And I'm highly ambitious. I really want to succeed in the space that I'm working in, and I want to take on some of those more masculine traits and show women that it's okay to be ambitious and determined and you know, really sort of audacious in what you want out of life. And I want this to exist. I believe it needs to be here. I've seen the power of it, so I just built it. Uh and really I built it with the goal of understanding what the ecosystem was was like here. I had met you, I'd met Ollie, I've I've met a few people in and around this space. But really, it is that that one-to-one connection. It's it's you have to go find each other. So I invite I created this library, which is really a small pop-up, but uh small.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, how many materials were there? There would have been a release to hundreds of things.
SPEAKER_01:There's around 65.
SPEAKER_02:65, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh but if you imagine in a real context, there would be thousands, like maybe eight to ten thousand. And Sanders and I were very sort of like-minded in in how we sort of approach sustainability. So we felt like it was a good home and the way we could have a win-win relationship together. And really, I wanted to see like who's interested in this. Sam, I can't even tell you the response that we've had.
SPEAKER_02:Crazy. I saw like time out, everyone's picked it up and like posting about it. It's it's insane.
SPEAKER_01:Every big company that you can think of in Australia, brand-wise, has visited their design team or their architecture team or their CEO higher-ups. Um, the infrastructure teams of like creating our rail loops and our train stations have been investors, every architecture firm, as you could imagine, yeah. And every university, so many students, people who are just curious as well. Just people off the street. This is cool. I'm interested in this. So I've been really busy just talking to people and understanding like what can this do for them. And I think it is like this connective tissue that we're missing. The solutions exist, people want to use them. Sorry, I've touched a microphone. Um people want to use them, but like why? Like, what's this middle space? Why is it a no man's land? What are the barriers? And I'm really lucky that people tell me that. So I think the future of the library could go in a number of directions, depending on the appetite of Australia and Australians. I think it needs to be like very culturally relevant. Uh, I'm sort of just waiting to see what makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. Yeah. I feel like um, yeah, I love the concept so much. And um I think I told you when I first met your mic, that's exactly the thing that I was like, I wish if if if you didn't do it, I'm like, I would have definitely tried to set something up like that. Because the tangible, tactile, hands-on, being able to see things, play with it, smell it, maybe not taste it, even though you probably could for most of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, just being able to perceive it is so important. And then once you know that it's possible, like the amount of people I know who are like, oh, you got a lab, that'd be so I'd love to know if you can do this. Or I tell people that I'm catching up with you for a podcast, and they're like, Oh my god, has someone made a like a biodegradable packaging for like food when you go hiking so that you could just like pop it in the jet boil with everything rather than the plastic wrappers? Like, there's so many people who find materiality so fascinating. Um, and I think it's because you know, we see it every day when you get cardboard, polystyrene, plastic packaging, and you have to be like, oh my god, this is terrible. But yeah, I I I would love like a please keep me up to date with it all because like my dream would be to help help yourself and help others who are curious, like co-create and co-design like a regenerative materials like design studio and then a lab for prototyping as well, so that you know, if there aren't things that are in the library, we can look at locally co-creating them and maybe through like a bit of a bioregional lens, it's like okay, great, what can we produce and make here locally? Is there any First Nations folks who we can work with to culturally appropriately acquire um certain materials or biomass? Is there also byproducts from uh industry? So, like say it rains and cherry split. Okay, great, now we've got two tons of cherries. Is it possible that we can make adaptive materials based on the feed stocks that come through? Like, what would that look like? So, yeah, this space has been something I've been percolating on for like pretty much since we started. It's like, is there a way in which we can try and find materials and turn them into value-added products? Um, waste into value-added products? Um, I know you've seen compound who's come through as you were showing off their materials. So, like, that's someone that we've been supporting at Bioacquisitive. Um, obviously, you know, off with the Pixie, so you know Chloe as well, Alt Leather, um, Fungi Solutions. But there is like for each of those companies, there is about a hundred students who are like equally as keen to try something. Yeah, but it's just access to information, access to space to play, or even inspiration from existing materials like the library. And I feel like having all of those is a really powerful, powerful thing for us. And I'd be yeah, it would be really interesting to see if we could try and get funding to support like a material research hub to be able to explore this further. Um I don't know if you know, um, but the I feel like the Deacon Future Materials hub is being closed down, which is pretty wild. So there actually isn't gonna be like a world-class space in Australia to do this sort of research, which is mind-blowing for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Especially when you know the leaders of the country are focusing on innovation and and are putting their their uh we just cut launch VIC as well, so maybe not. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Like uh we I think we we like to have like uh here's our 10-year uh you know national RD roadmap, um, but then we're systematically underfunding CSIRO and all the research institutes are pulling funding from certain areas, so it doesn't feel great, but I do think that bottom-up innovation could replace that if we have space for people to explore.
SPEAKER_01:Certainly, and I think that while you're maybe on the side of lab RD innovation, I'm really on the side of implementation. Like let's get it into the system, right? And what needs to happen for it to play the game that we're currently playing. Otherwise, all these incredible innovations, as you've seen, they kind of can't go anywhere. There's nowhere, there's no output for them, there's nowhere for them to go. So the really unique part of my job is I work with material manufacturers, I understand what they're producing, and I can translate that information to the people who are specifying those materials. But also the conversation goes back the other way as well. The people who are specifying materials often have standards they need to hit, regulatory compliance, all of these layers of added extra that they need to focus on. So is there a way to send that communication back down to the material makers and say, hey, listen, I've got 30 architecture firms who have pledged to use your material if we can get it fire rated? And is there a way to maybe crowdsource that or fund that so that that barrier to entry is gone? And we just knock them off one by one. What's the barrier into entry? Get it gone. What's the barrier to entry? Get it gone. Because that's what I'm seeing happening. Materials exist, they're there, they've been there for years and years and years. We've solved that part of the equation. Now we need to solve the barriers to entry. And I feel like they're only going to be very contextual, very specific, very like direct things that we can focus on and pinpoint.
SPEAKER_02:And most of those you feel then are political, social, legal sort of barriers that are maybe immaterial, not necessarily real, and and easy enough to work through if you explain to people why this is important.
SPEAKER_01:Um perception, you know, why if we know every hotel usually goes through a redesign or a revamp every 10 years because it looks old, it needs to be trendy. Do we expect our material specification to hit 50 years? Like there's just such a discourse between, you know, what we're expecting our materials to do versus actually what we know is probably going to happen from a time perspective. So really we need to start thinking about time as a scale and the life cycle of materials in use. Does it need to exist for a hundred years or is will it exist for one to two? And how do we sort of manipulate durability and the standards we're expecting to suit that?
SPEAKER_02:It's like this reminds me, there's two points here. So this reminds me of um, I don't know if you're familiar with Dark Matter Labs, Indie Yoha, but their concept of facade as a service. So you could actually be a company that, you know, you say to those hotels, okay, you know, every five years we'll replace it all. We own it, you pay us to install, you pay us, you know, a yearly fee, and then at the end of life we take it back and we either place it somewhere else or upcycle it or downcycle it or something like that. Um, and I just thought that was such a fascinating concept to allow more like material agency. Um, and then another one was like the material passport. So actually being able to track everything in a building and then you know, being able to have markets where, okay, cool, well, at the end of five years, this is going to be potentially be purchasable should someone else want it. Like to your point, it's like none of these things are hard solves, it's just whether or not we want to create the platforms or the wayfaring or the facilitation. It's it's the mycelium network that needs to be woven throughout to be able to support the transfer of nutrients through the forest that is our built ecology.
SPEAKER_01:Um just to interject, please the way you said you thought of collabs as an ecosystem. I would love every business to think about that and think about their resource use. So if I'm building a retail environment, as you said, we have a way to track those materials through a digital product passport. And then when it's coming to its end of life, the events team gets notified, the point of sale team gets notified, the window display gets notified, maybe even the product people get notified. So they all have this resource free of charge, being able to be used in their ecosystem. And as it gets reused across all the different outputs and verticals of a business, uh we're we're sort of using the value of it continuously, and we don't have to buy any new material. It's free, it's circulated, and it's had a number of different uses throughout that business. I can't, I can't even tell you what value that would be for a business and sustainability.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's uh it just makes sense. Then I feel like there's so many things in life that just make sense, but it's like this weird collective coordination failure that comes when a bunch of humans get together and might have perverse incentives baked in where it's like, oh, it's actually better to make people have to rebuy a thing. But if you change the change those incentive structures or you explore. Things like this, where it actually and you can show the benefit and explain why it's useful. I really think like there is so much that could be done to alleviate, I guess, so much of the waste that's created. Like next door to us right now, like every day there has been three skips that have just been filled up with old office equipment. Yeah. Which no one I mean, not the the best stuff to be fair. But if that was made in a different way or done in a different way, that could be some of that could be so maybe the frames could be shuttered off somewhere else, recoded, reused. Maybe the tops, some of them are fine, but other ones could be broken down and then like repulped and reused. Um I'm not sure whether they just go to landfill, but it does feel like there's there are opportunities here for people to explore, but potentially because they are long time frames, like a five or ten year time frame, and we're stuck on quarterly returns for our, you know, all of that sort of stuff. I wonder if that impacts it. But then how do we yeah, what what are your thoughts? Like, how do we try and get this out there and show to show to people that actually this is this is better both maybe medium term and long term and potentially even short term? Like, how do you try and sell the the life cycle assessment to people in a way?
SPEAKER_01:It is it is tricky and really we look for like very short-term wins. Like, what could you implement right now that wouldn't change your business, that would just make you less impactful? But then when we're talking about sort of the longer-term changes, very rarely is it about sustainability. No one's making these choices because it's the right thing to do. They're making these choices because of supply chain risk or because of talent retention. They know the next generations are coming. It's really the value proposition that sustainability represents. So that's the way we position it as well. It's it's not really doing the good thing because it's the right thing to do, but it's good for business.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. Okay, so you're coming at it from the perspective of, yeah, it's beneficial for people on the planet, but actually impacts your profit and churn rate and retention of employees and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. We know that the next generations are gonna care about this and they are not as inclined to climb a corporate ladder or put so much emphasis on their work. They're really going to align their purpose with their day-to-day work. Um, and how can you be an organization that attracts critical thinkers and people who want to invest in building your company? How do you make sure that they feel a purpose when they're coming to work? How do you make sure that the price of wood, plastic, glass, whatever these finite materials are that eventually are going to run out one day? How do you sort of own that resource, as you said, and be in control and circulation and understand what it is from a compositional level, understand the transformation it's been through, and how you can make something else out of it. That's incredibly powerful if you have that sort of control over your supply chain. So all of these things are sure, um complicated, but you cannot assume that the world is not going to change. We've already seen it. So you can decide to do this or you can be forced to do it. There's one avenue that you're in control, you're in charge, you get to predict. You're you you have a sort of vision for what you want, and the other is very reactive, and good luck to you.
SPEAKER_02:On that topic of change, like how do you how do you design and how do you come up with ideas or solutions given the fact that everything's changing so rapidly, whether it's climate change, supply chains breaking down, um multipolar world where we've got multiple people vying for top dog position, um, all of these sorts of things. Yeah, how do you how do you factor all of that in? And especially when you're trying to sell this to people and thinking that five, 10-year horizon, like are people thinking that or are they like, I'm just really in this to get my next paycheck and then I'm out? Like, how do you how do you factor in the uncertainty when you're trying to design?
SPEAKER_01:I think people are scared, and a lot of people won't speak about what they're doing sustainability-wise because they're afraid of the backlash. As you know, there's there's no right, you know, stance to take or right thing to be doing. And even if you do do good things, there's probably things lower down the line that are hard to fix that you're not doing. So you shine a light on yourself for doing good things, inevitably there's going to be what else is happening kind of coming through. So I work with a lot of companies who don't say anything, they're zipped up, but they're probably doing the most because they're afraid of the backlash. And really internally, it's flexing the muscle and getting them all confident that they are doing the right thing. It's really sort of communicating internally that yes, this has been done, we're working on this, it's best practice, it aligns with what everyone else is doing, and building sort of the internal competency that that's what they're focusing on. And then if you think about it really, the world and the brands that we buy from and the reasons we buy from them are not because it's like the best material or it's made by the smartest person. There's all these kind of like esoteric notions that are tied into it, like luxury. You know, all of these luxury goods are likely made in China, which people have a bad association with, and you know, all these things, but it's luxury because of the brand, right? And that's really what they're trying to hold on to. Innovation, Nike. Um, really, if you went to a landfill, you'd see the Nike logo everywhere. Are they really being innovative? Is this really luxurious if a child's making it for me? So me getting down to the existing cores of pillars of a business and what they say they operate on, and just looking them in the eye and asking if they still do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's such a big um one of my friends, Nate, talks about this, like the ethical intention to action gap. And a lot of people are aware that there is a massive delta between what they say and what they do, but and there's like obvious cognitive dissonance, but yeah, no one wants to be told they're like doing a shit job. That's like the first thing you realize. It's like it can be really hard to do that. And I and I would love to know how you handle that, because that is such an important thing to be like, hey, like do you do you go, oh, you're doing great, however, or like hey, how do you frame it? Because it is such a touchy thing to speak to people about this sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:First of all, you have to realize that cognitive dissonance is actually an really important ingredient for our survival.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's a survival strategy for sure.
SPEAKER_01:We're here because we're able to forget certain truths and and be able to get through life not thinking about things. Um and that's honestly probably an easy way to live than the way we live, where you you really see things for a little bit as they are. It's it's it's a harder life, it's a harder choice. Um, and I I don't you know look down on anyone for choosing to do that. I think the way we've approached this historically has been oh, look at the temperature rising, everyone, and look at the garbage patch in Texas, and look at this mountain of clothes that we can see from space. And that really psychologically activates people, right? You put them in fight or flight already. They're already stressed out. And that's every sustainability presentation I've been to usually starts that way.
SPEAKER_02:I'm so on, I'm so on board with this. Yeah, I agree. It's not helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Everyone's stressed out, defensive, uh, upset, you know, and to get them to a point where they can tie the decision making they they do every single day to, you know, this existential outcome. That's a really hard task. Why would anyone try and do it that way? It doesn't make sense to me. So, really, what we try and do is come from it, you know, in a way that humans like. We like beautiful things. We've always created art and wanted nice things in our home, collected like stones that look good to us. And it's it's how we do things. We want things to look nice, we want things to feel good. Um, you ask about like pleasure. Pleasure is a really important part of this. It's evolutionary, it's not frivolous. We're humans, because we like things to feel good. So, really, in everything that I do, I'm thinking, how does someone walk away from an experience with me feeling great? Either my hope is contagious, or I've at the Materials Library shown them the possibilities and the options and the fact that there's a lot out there. Maybe it's started a conversation internally that they wouldn't have been able to bring up before. Or maybe it's a party at the M Pavilion where you can get a drink and dance to a DJ and like it's just fun. And I think that that's really how I'm trying to approach this is just from a really humanistic perspective of how do I get people to change their minds? It's it's gotta feel nice.
SPEAKER_02:It's probably not gonna happen by telling them to change their minds or that they're stupid.
SPEAKER_01:I'm raising a five-year-old like a toddler. Yeah, when does that ever work?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01:You have to sort of walk the walk and make it seem really fun, and people will follow you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it is it is fascinating and essential. And I feel like, again, that is a big part of the issue with maybe those who are more scientifically trained, is that you're actually taught to rip each other apart, and then you don't realize that that doesn't translate very well into the real world by just saying, you know what, you're absolutely categorically and fundamentally incorrect based on the evidence that you've provided. No one really wants to hear that, and even scientists don't like hearing that from other people. So, yeah, the defenses do go up. And to your point, I think it's about as you said earlier, meeting people where they're at and it's like exploring what like more beautiful world we all know out like is possible in our hearts. And then how do we how do we work together to try and make this reality happen, not that one? And from that perspective, it's like we're not pointing fingers or blaming anyone, we're all a part of this system, which means we're all complicit. Yeah, and people are just doing what they have to do based on the way the system is designed, but it doesn't mean that we can't try and find appropriate intervention points to shift it. Um speaking of shifting, how have you felt that you've changed personally during setting up Hilo and all of this sort of stuff?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yes. This I mean, you're an entrepreneur, like this is a spiritual journey, it's not a business or strategy. It's really I think taking a look at yourself and seeing your blind spots and trying to work on them and grow as a human so that you can accomplish the things you would like to accomplish.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're not gonna like I say this all the time to founders, it's like uh your inner development is like the hard stop of your outer development of an organization.
SPEAKER_01:It's so tied to it.
SPEAKER_02:Everything's relational, every form of communication and holding space and building building out like the ecosystem that you're a part of. Like all of this requires you to be able to sense, see, intuit how other people feel, where they're at, and yeah, doing that from a place of like love and support rather than competition is like essential. But yeah, to your point, it's like it's um such a very obvious indicator of where you're at um on that journey. Um what have you found has been like really useful to help you cultivate maybe more self or systemic awareness during the process, apart from having a kid.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was pretty big, honestly. That was probably my catalyst, if I'm honest with you. Uh having a child really just like tore everything down, and everything I thought that I was, or everything I thought I wanted really just changed. And also I think it um like I had someone else that I loved more than myself to do it for, in a sense, like if I didn't live up to my own potential, you know, who cares? Uh but if I don't live up to my own potential, my daughter gets to see that, and and that'll be a part of her story. And if I don't uh achieve the things I want to achieve and that are really meaningful and uh make a make a difference in my life, you know, that's who she's gonna be. And if I'm scared of being seen or saying what I think or advocating for women or, you know, she's gonna see that. So I think I've really just she I think Beyoncé said this, she really introduced me to myself and really who I am at my core. And I've just taken that and really run with it. I'm I'm a neuro spicy person that sees patterns and everything, but I also have like seven Mikey cards with like a dollar on them, and I don't know where they are. Like, and that's okay because the things that make me really bad at some things make me really excellent at other things. And I'm unashamedly supportive of women. You will never hear me say a bad word about a woman. Uh, I want to uplift them. And when I do make a speech or I do talk about the things I'm passionate about, I often have a line of young women that wait to speak to me, not about materials or sustainability, but just like the audacity to get up on stage and say it's the patriarchy versus the planet. Like, how do you do that? How do you have the balls to do that? Um, and that yeah, that's kind of where I get my like ignition from is from seeing those things happen around me.
SPEAKER_02:What do you think are, I guess, some other patterns or processes or things that you feel are holding women back in the workplace currently?
SPEAKER_01:I think it is It is this like systemic belief that we should just follow what men want to do.
SPEAKER_02:Don't do that, please don't do that.
SPEAKER_01:But really, if you think about it, like men follow the women, right? If you have a partner or your mom or your sister, you're like, she's smart, I'll listen to her. Like, God forbid I had to leave my house and find a stranger to look after my kid. It would be a woman. You'd be looking for a woman. Not all women, but you know, you'd be looking for a woman. And that's just a truth that we all know. It's like very inherent in us, but for some reason there is this cognitive dissonance because what does it mean for men if they're not powerful?
SPEAKER_02:Or not useful. Maybe useful is the right condition. I don't know. It's it is so interesting, like looking at like when we started doing with like the privatization of land and needed to have paternal certainty, that then all of the religions shifted from like a female-oriented mother goddess of the earth towards these sky god patriarchal dudes who control everything. Yeah. Uh yeah, look, probably 10,000 years in the making, but it's been really nice witnessing the pendulum shift a little bit back, even if it's only a minority who are trying to explore this. It is um it is so evident still, and I find it so fascinating hearing friends talk about how sometimes you go into a room and there'll be a bunch of dudes, and like they'll just talk over or inter interrupt more, not make space for female-bodied people. Um I just find that so fascinating that it still seems to be an issue. And I wonder whether it is because of, as you said, the need to feel important or useful, or maybe being afraid of the fact that maybe there is a whole range of intellects that um men ignore because of the focus on like aggressional competitiveness and not thinking about all these other things that are equally as important. And there is a fear of the perhaps a lack of competency when it comes to social relations and negotiation and all these sort of things, which tend to actually be like females are much better at making space for this sort of stuff. And I wonder if it's just trying to like cling on to this thing or like how do we how do we help guys be just less bad? You know what I mean? Like there's got to be something where it's like that's I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's all for for you guys to figure out, you know, as much as the patriarchy has been painful for women, it's been really painful for men. Those dudes lose out, like so many parts of yourself that you have to abandon, and and you're not born that way. Again, I have you know a lot of children in my life who are boys and they are sensitive and they're caring and they have close relationships with each other and with other people. It is a dangerous mentality for men and women and everyone in between. It's it's not a gendered issue, the patriarchy. Um, and I think that men should really get together and decide how they want to evolve. And I really think it needs to start with like appreciing the sanctity of life and the fact that physiologically we are different. And that does maybe make us more in tune with natural cycles and the earth.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you have one, right?
SPEAKER_01:If if you if there was a doorway, like where every piece of life came out of, like child, would you not be worshipping the door? Would you not be laying wreaths there and like dancing and chanting and lighting candles? And there would be such like appreciation for this doorway. And yet the way I see the world treating women like modern slavery, let's take it back to materials and making things, just modern slavery and and how our billionaires are here because they're taking lives from children and women. Um, it's just it's just baffling to me that that's that's somehow okay. And no one, like I'm crazy or like ballsy because I say it.
SPEAKER_02:That's the uh this is the struggle that I find with this is as a relatively mildly privileged white dude um who has enough confidence to kind of do things, even if it's a stupid thing to do. Yeah, like it's not an experience that I've experienced. Like people just listen to you when you talk, or they take your take your face. Oh, don't get me wrong, like there are certain people in positions of power in certain social hierarchies which look down on everyone. Um, but yeah, it's something that it's difficult when you don't experience it to understand until you witness it like in a context, and then you might be like, I don't know, there've been a few times where I might like call something out or then specifically ask for a certain person's opinion who might be female bodied, who's been like shut down or cut out of a conversation. You're like, Oh, what do you think about this, or what's your perspective on this? Trying to sort of indicate it, but it is interesting, like um so much of these patterns seem so so deeply ingrained. Um such a fascinating area, I think, at the moment, and it feels like a lot of guys are like if you look at it, I feel like the stats are pretty bad for dudes at the moment post-COVID, um, in terms of like just worse at education, worse off in so many areas. It really feels like there needs to be, to your point, like a collective coming together to reassess like what it actually means to be a healthy, functional male in this society, and how it might be a bit more of a giver and a sharer and a supporter rather than like a conqueror or a sports star or whatever other terrible archetypes that we have on display as the pedestal that men should be striving towards. Um, look, there's so many good things trying to address this, like the man cave. I've got a couple of friends who sort of work there and um in that sort of space, but it is um I'm always happy to go there because it's such a fascinating sort of space to explore.
SPEAKER_01:And then the other part of it, which is inevitable, is is colonialism and and sort of the whitewash wash nature of our modern society. And I am half Indian, so I I I'm white passing, you know. I think I get a lot of away with a lot more because I am white passing, but there is, you know, that's Of me that's very aware that yeah, my life is privileged because yeah, I'm I have that I have that perception. And it and and in the material stories as well, like there is a lot of like colonialism built into that. So really that's the focus is through materials, you know, how can we challenge all these systems of extraction and power and dominance and um use materials as a vehicle to teach people about that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I really and I really see that um in your work and in a lot of people in the like I guess the regenerative movement. It it feels like the the materials are a great place to be able to bring this in, to speak to this, use the narrative to explain how we've got to this sort of extractive sort of way of being and doing in the world and how we can try and shift it. Um and having the material as a focal point rather than like a person or or something else, like you know, the system that's a hyper object. It's really hard to see or point to, but when you've got a material, it just makes things so much more easy to comprehend within the current worldview. Um what do you think is like a dominant story in the material space that needs to be questioned or challenged?
SPEAKER_01:Probably that like them alone will be the solution. I think that I think that's really why Hilo was created and why I do this work is because we were saying, you know, plastic, good or bad. You know, there's a lot of these material myths that exist that are out there. And I think just the fact that you think you can create a more sustainable world by subbing this material in for that material really misses the the point uh entirely. Um so yeah, I would like us to see be better stewards of materials rather than you know using them, specifying them, uh whatever, but seeing ourselves sort of more as custodians and just a moment in time and um yeah, being able to sort of circulate them more freely with one another is yeah, I think what I think there.
SPEAKER_02:And what about like bringing it back to the physical infrastructure? Because I know we've spoken a lot about social systems and things that need to change. Is there anything from that perspective that you feel like you know, maybe in an Australian context, uh could really help bolster or speed up? So if you had the ear of, let's say, I don't know, the National Reconstruction Fund or someone like that, what do you think would be like your elevator pitch to them about the importance of a biobased material future and and what sort of infrastructure might be needed to make that happen from a sovereign manufacturing capability?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's the point, right? We're Australia, we're an island at the bottom of the ocean. And to sort of sustain life here, if collapse of uh, you know, a really global ecosystem was to happen, how do we make sure that living in Australia we can have uh a really healthy way of life? Uh the good thing is we import a lot of things. So we are able to see what is coming in and we also have control over what we let in. So I would hit some like really low-hanging fruit. What are we allowing in? What are we saying no to? Like, what are our standards when it comes to what is healthy and sustainable to be in Australia? Then it would be like what resources are really rich in our land? Um, by originality, what resources do we have at our disposal, and what sort of indigenous knowledge can we elevate, heighten, distribute to everyone so that we're able to work with the resources that we have here. And that's to say that maybe there would be like technology that's been developed in Europe or developed in the US that we can license down. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We're actually kind of lucky that we're a little bit behind, and we're lucky that we're a smaller economy. We're not turning a Titanic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it's it's okay that we don't make everything here, it's okay. All these things are really actually working in our favor to the point where we could leapfrog some of these bigger economies of scale.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's really important things call out like to that point, like uh technologies like tram tracks. So it's like if you lock into a certain thing and then that locks you into that, and it's really hard to pivot from it. But because we've essentially gutted our entire manufacturing, and there is so much money that the government want to put into supporting advanced manufacturing, it's really interesting to be able to go, well, like, you know, and I'd love to ask your perspective on scale as well. But um, you know, rather than like big mega factories like you see in Shenzhen district and all of that sort of stuff, like maybe you could have multiple production and manufacturing spaces close to biomass in each of the different bioregions rurally. And maybe it can go straight from the source to be processed, and then it could be distributed within the bioregion or across bioregions if they don't have those resources. Um, like it seems like there are so many different ways or pat or different patterns that we could look at exploring that um, yeah, I feel like it would be really interesting to be able to see if we could support something like that. Um, and how do we how do we convince them? What's the narrative? How do we make this happen?
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what my how do we make this happen, right? I think we continue to do what we were doing and continue to make it feel good and watch people start to follow and line up and want to be a part of it, want to work for us and want to be like, how do I get involved? You know, that kind of hunger. And then eventually, once it becomes kind of mainstream and a mainstream way of thinking, then the people who are making decisions, their heads turn and they say, Why do people care about this? Like, who are those guys? What are they doing? Um, and then that's maybe when we have a little bit more power.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And we don't have power because we have the money, we have power because we have the influence. And I think people really forget how powerful their influence and attention is. So, yeah, I think that when I've gone to government things, a lot of the time it's like in the agenda, more sustainable materials. Sustainable materials, 80% of them by 2050. It's like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean?
SPEAKER_02:It's kind of just a way to handball it to future politicians. It's like, let's just address that when we're closer to it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:But to be able to stand up and say, we know exactly what that means. We know exactly the plan to do this, we've learned from other countries, we've learned from other manufacturers, let's learn from the very unique set of knowledge that we have from Indigenous people here. No other country in the world has this. Like, I've worked in the US, I've worked in Europe, no one has access to Indigenous knowledge like we have.
SPEAKER_02:120,000 years of continued existence on this on this cunt continent. Like, yeah, there's so much there if we can learn how to, in a culturally appropriate way, work with and walk together towards a more just future. Yeah, um, there's so much potential there.
SPEAKER_01:Learn from, look to them, follow their lead, listen to how they do things. Like 100%, I think that's a really huge missed opportunity, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_02:And then um again, it's staring at our things that we've done in the past um and having to face that full on. And I feel like as a culture, we're not very good at acknowledging those sorts of things. Um, we might be happy to pay lip service to it, but maybe not so much address it. But hey, fingers crossed. Things can change. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it's it is happening more with our clients. Like they are wanting to try, instead of you know, just hanging a piece of art on the wall, they are really wanting to try to do it in a meaningful way. And we're trying to figure out how to do that in a way that can scale and be meaningful for everyone involved. Um, and that is through materials. So I think if we can do those things, and then you know, we have a Western sensibility, we're close to Asia where everything in the world is made, like that just positions ourselves as a leader of global change. And I can't figure out for the life of me why no one is taking this as a political stance and running with it. Like, we have this opportunity. No one in the world has this opportunity. Like, let's do it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, cool. I guess we'll have to uh we'll have to find a find a way to get a few. We we we have premiers and politicians down all the time. We'll have to try and uh find a way to get the ear of some people and see if we can get some funding to support stuff. Because I think to your point, it's um uh super important to get the narrative right, and it's super important to build up the momentum. Like, so that's how we got all of our funding for collabs was hey, we're having people come to us saying they can't get access to space. Um they're having to go interstate, they're having to go international, like, you know, you're losing out on jobs, you're losing out on potential economic opportunities, and then you know, you mentioned that, and it's like, great, yeah, have some money. Like, yeah, validate it, set it up. And I feel like it's kind of feels like we're almost getting to that point here where we're getting enough of like a basin of attraction of people who are really curious about this and who are wanting to help pull the system towards a new equilibrium that might be more beneficial for people in the planet. And it feels like we're almost getting to that point where it's like the system is really starting to get quite shaky. The foundations on which it's built on are starting to break down, and it's like it's up to us to decide whether we break through to a new material um palette of the future or whether we just break down and we just keep using these things that are not gonna support us and then end up having total system collapse, you know, and it could really go either way, but it does feel like we can support that. Um, and yeah, it's the narrative, but it's also like thinking about the feedback loops for the infrastructure and like to build out what's needed, it's gonna take five to ten years, which means it actually needs to happen now, even if we don't have the like the crazy movement built up. So it's like, how do we also do both? Because they have different different feedback loops, and like the momentum for things like like regenerative materials might build up and you know, might build to a really high point, and then because there's nowhere for that energy to flow to, it just dissipates, and then nothing happens. And I feel like that's an like a really big issue that we have in Australia is that so many people like they're like, Oh, where do I put all of this excitement and energy? And then because there isn't you know spaces to explore that, it kind of dissipates. Um so yeah, I don't know, it's gonna be an interesting future ahead. Um I'm kind of curious, like let's look to the future, like 10, 20 years, like you know, the high low vision for materials and everything. It's it's all happening. You're working with all of the top brands. Do you guys still exist in your current form? You know, have you evolved into something else? Like, where do you see yourself if everything goes well you know in 10, 20 years?
SPEAKER_01:10 to 20 years, yeah. I don't know. I think what do I think? I first of all think like what an exciting time to be alive. Like to be the generation of people that have this as a task to take on.
SPEAKER_02:No one else is gonna do it.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's pretty monumental, really, and it really matters like what we do now in this moment. In this moment, we get to sort of dictate whether the systems of humans, like human life, continues on. Because obviously, you know, the planet's not gonna die. The planet's gonna be absolutely fine. We're talking about human extinction, and we're causing our own human extinction. So either we change and evolve or we become extinct. And you and I and everyone around us is in charge of making that decision. That's how I sort of see this. So either in 20 years, I am living on a farm with a few of my favorite people, and you know, I'm growing apricots and making seaweed paper, and you know, I'm I'm just living and practicing my belief system away from society and sort of planning for the demise of the current infrastructure and trying to take my survival and my family's survival out of that context. Option one. Hopefully, it's not that option. Hopefully, it's another option where the high-low kind of mindset of being able to challenge things and sort of work in a system of like what feels good, like how do we evolve and just keep going and feeling good, um, sort of gets to a societal level, if I'm honest with you, where it makes sense that brown women make decisions and are in charge of strategic thought leadership, negotiation with um different countries, things like that. Women are in charge. Um we have found biomaterials that make sense regionally, that we can circulate and replenish the soil and nourish ourselves. And Hilo's a part of all of those sorts of things. As I said, we're all kind of people who could probably start our own businesses, but we wanted to show this like collective force and allow people to do a lot of different things under the same sort of thought system and belief system and value system. So hopefully that just grows and grows and grows, and from everything to policy and political infrastructure, voting, democracy, um, to like childcare and taking care of mothers, like this way of thinking and this disruptive way of like bringing down a society that doesn't work, maybe that happens in 20 years. And and Hilo is just like kind of a belief system.
SPEAKER_02:I like that. Um a belief system. Yeah. I feel like there is a like a template for thinking here that can be applied in almost any context, which I would say is sympathetic with or resonates with, you know, like whether it's eco-literacy, regenerative design principles, all of these sorts of things that just feel like um they're aligned with how life works. And those people who align quicker to this and attempt to course correct are just gonna be better off in the long term, no matter what, even if it goes well or it turns to shit, to your point, whether we all just have a have a farm um somewhere rurally and grow and cultivate everything.
SPEAKER_01:Are you coming to my farm or I'm coming to yours?
SPEAKER_02:Well, maybe we have ones next door.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's um I feel like it's such a millennial dream is the is the farm where you grow your own food and make your own materials.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm just pushing for it. That's gonna be like the I want to have a rural collab so that we can have just a farm.
SPEAKER_01:But imagine like bioluminescence lighting the pathways. Like you don't have to do it crunchy, you can do it scientific.
SPEAKER_02:Glowy. You know, have you heard of Glowy, the French company that's doing bioluminescent lighting? He's a French dude from Australia bought the license for that and is looking to develop it locally here. He's coming on the farm too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We'll bring Jermaine along.
SPEAKER_01:And maybe if enough of us do that, we set up an infrastructure and a society and a system that's really it's thriving. Like we've solved it. Exactly, we've solved it. We want to be a sovereign state, we have our own laws, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Not quite a freedom city or whatever they're talking about in the States, just to be clear.
SPEAKER_01:No, yeah, just to preface that, but um, it's an option for sure.
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm I'm into it. Um I'm curious, like I'm curious, what are you what have you been tending to lately, or what are you where are you noticing your attention has been pulled?
SPEAKER_01:I it's it's a timely question because I feel like yeah, I'm at that point of my career where I've I've done enough to know a little bit of what's going on, and it's also okay, now I really need to decide what I'm gonna hone in on. And as I said, I I know these materials, I've worked with them for many years, I know they exist, I know the barriers to entry, I know the reasons they fall down, I know all of that, I've seen it over and over again. So really it's not what, but it's why. I'm really focused on like the psychology of the human condition and really understanding what that means and how do I how do I work for it? And like it's not really about what not what's not happening, but like why is it not happening and what can I do? So the connection of materials and meaning and motivation is a bit more where I'm leaning because I think that's where people's minds will change, where their behavior will change, and where like we'll eventually get systemic change.
SPEAKER_02:Are you familiar with John Vivake? Have you come across his work? No, I feel like you'd be pretty interested in like the four or five E Cog Sci. Like his he's got like this whole, oh my god, it's like a 150 hours like uh awakening from the meaning crisis thing on YouTube, speaking about like meaning and all of that sort of stuff. And then like another one that comes to mind is like Ian McGillchrist, um uh The Matter with Things and The Master and his Emissary, like a couple like I feel like you would find those sort of thinkers quite fascinating as well. And like even like Anora Bateson, if you haven't come across her, um given I guess that area of interest for you around like the nexus of meaning, agency, um, human psychology, and then how do we collectively make sense and try and do what's right. Um I'll flick to you some things afterwards because yeah, I feel like you might find that pretty interesting. Um please do trying to think if we've got any other questions for you.
SPEAKER_01:That might be enough. Yeah, yeah, if you've got any questions for you. We've gone everywhere. Oh, that's a good one. Um yeah. Okay, so you have a lot of uh ideas come through your doors. People who want to create uh biomaterials and they they have a concept, they have an idea. What uh material or industry or application do you think most people are like trying to tackle, trying to work on? There's a big opportunity there in terms of like um availability of of input, those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, is this what industry I think will grow and develop, or what people are coming to us from a certain industry? Maybe both. Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe both.
SPEAKER_02:Uh kelp. Yep. Yep. So that I think is going to be a massive area. So we have multiple startups that we're supporting. So Oz Kelp are looking at creating a commercial kelp farm using uh Colenia radiata, which is a native species. Yep. We help them to essentially I call it a kelp IVF clinic. So they uh grow the kelp down here and uh breed it, and then they string it out on ropes and use that to draw down ocean carbon, and then you've got an amazing feedstock which can be used to create biomaterials. Um so there's a really interesting approach to, I guess, trying to solve multiple problems at once. Um, you know, we need more kelp uh forests because a lot of them have disappeared, then the water's getting too warm, so they can't procreate by themselves. Uh, and then you also have this viable feedstock that doesn't need any fertilizer or anything, it's just sunlight and water. Um, that's a really interesting one. And then another startup we're just beginning to support, which is like they're so cool. They're so cool. So um, Roper uh or Henry from Ropa, what he's done is he's got himself a license to remove all of the invasive seaweed species in Victoria. Um so I think it's is it Wakame? It's like a I think it's uh maybe a Japanese seaweed. So he's got a license to remove it, and I think he gets paid to remove it. And then he's looking at finding ways in which you can then sell that as a product for phiquidon or for um to compound to potentially use to be able to create biomaterials. So there are like multiple people who are going, okay, cool. Like the ocean is a massive resource. Kelp is crazy good in terms of how fast it can grow. And the materiality of it is really interesting, right? As you would know, it can be used to create a nylon replacement. You can like alginit who are making fabrics out of it. Then you've got um Ulu who are making um PHA out of it, so making um bacterial-based polymers, which are like plastic alternatives. I think kelp is gonna be a massive one also for like soil regeneration. Um, so you can use it to replenish soils, which for us is like we've got like 10-15 years of topsoil left at this rate, unless we really take soil seriously. I think it's one of the most undervalued resources on the planet. Um, so yeah, I think kelp is a really interesting one from a material perspective that has a lot of potential. Um, and that's something that we've been gunning for and wanting to support um locally. Um, other things that we've seen coming through the ranks are uh people attempting to utilize agricultural feedstocks to create um whether it's leather alternatives like alt leather or other materials like uh so downstairs Chloe, one of our impact members, she's taking um oyster shells and breaking them down to then create um, I guess you could say tiles or potentially even plates. So there's a lot of people looking at finding, going to your point, it's like, okay, what context are we in? What resources are within this bioregion? Can we try and find ways that it's a win-win-win? You know, getting paid to remove a thing and then also being able to pay people pay you to sell it? Genius. You know, no need to worry then about permits, you know, like whereas Oscult's got to, you know, worry about getting permits to be able to, even though it's a native species, it grows there. So there's things like that that I think are pretty exciting. What's another one that's come through? I'm really curious about ways in which we can start creating things using um organisms that are native to this continent, and obviously doing that as we said before, with um cultural clarity, care for country, and uh understanding that we probably don't know a lot about these things, and there's probably a lot that's being withheld because I don't necessarily want it to fall into like a commercially driven thing, but um combinai is a really interesting one, so um, you know, that could be used for there's people uh Ponder over in the UK that use um uh reeds seeds as a form of insulation. So there's options there, which is pretty interesting to be able to replace like a synthetic down. There's there's so many options, yeah. But something that I'm really, really bullish on is um the kelp because it's also a great plastic replacement for single-use plastics. Um, it can also be used to um as that's the something I think is really important, is it's not just creating the nice material, but it's like what does it get delivered in to your point before about the upstream and downstream. Um so yeah, I feel like they're kind of things that I'm really curious about and would love to see more of. I'm really also quite curious about um exploring ways to potentially harness like photosynthesis or work with like whether it's algae or other things that might require less energy than sort of mammalian cell lines or um bacteria and stuff like that. Super cool to like, you know, whether it's scoby leather or all these other things, but if we can find a way to use photo autotrophs, that is like a game changer. Or if we can find a way to work with plants, maybe to leverage photosynthesis in some way to get it to create other things other than sugars, maybe energy to be able to then power and create or be used for some other input. I see kind of the future being maybe like building out like microbial ecologies that can take in multiple different feedstocks or things and then create multiple different outputs. That would be an ideal dream, but I feel like that's probably 50 years, 50 years away. Um yeah, what about you? Is there anything that you're super excited about locally that's happening? Oh, hemp. Oh my gosh. Yeah, totally forgot hemp. That's the other game changer. Um, on the on like a from a terrestrial perspective, I think hemp is like a wonder product, which we need to get over the fact that it um other forms of it can be smoked and realize that this was once in like a powerhouse, like all of our ship sales used to be made out of hemp. Massive industries in Italy and um across Europe for this, like Romania, um also uh Ukraine, all these places used to grow so much hemp. Um, it's just an amazing material. So I see, yeah, hemp and kelp are probably the top two for me that I'd like to see more of, just given their like relatively outsized positive impact. I'm sure there's negative things, as we've said, there's always trade-offs, but they both feel pretty good from like the built environment and also material palette for fashion textiles and all of that sort of stuff. Both of them play across both and have multiple verticals that they can drop into, which I think is really exciting. We just need more funding and support.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I agree. Interesting, very interesting. You have an interesting job.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, oh my god, we both have interesting jobs. How silly that we made these things happen. Um it's great. I think it's to your point, we're very lucky we live in a time where you can create your own job that is trying to bring about a better future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so thank you for doing that. And you as well. Hopefully, it can be a bit of an inspiration to others. Uh appreciate you making the time for the chat. I feel like this has been a long time coming. Yeah, um. I know you've been very busy, so thanks for making time and space.
SPEAKER_01:You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no worries. The big questions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, if you're down, there might be a round two, and I might drag you in for some more chats. And as I said, like I've there's a few things we're trying to percolate in the works um around like regenerative materials lab stuff that I feel like there's some interesting overlap. So be very keen to see what might emerge from that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, watch this space.
SPEAKER_02:That's it.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. Thank you. Thanks, Sam.
