The Strange Attractor
Welcome to The Strange Attractor, an experimental podcast hosted by CoLabs Australia. We invite you to join us as we delve deep into the world of bio-based and bio-inspired design and deep tech, exploring how transformative innovation and living systems thinking could help us catalyse the transition towards a more resilient and regenerative future for people and the planet.
The Strange Attractor
From Ocean Pests to Regenerative Products ft. Henry Cole from ROPA #19
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Kelp forests are disappearing into white rock deserts, and Henry Cole is wading straight into the problem—then bottling the solution. We bring you a frontline look at how invasive seaweed and exploding urchin populations can be harvested to restore reefs and transformed into premium skincare actives and agricultural inputs that people already want.
Henry’s journey runs from deep-sea fishing and oil-and-gas diving to helping build Victoria’s first commercial seaweed farm. The science landed; the scaling dragged. Meanwhile, wakame kept spreading, and long-spine urchins carved out barren 'Moonscapes' across Victoria and Tasmania. That mismatch unlocked a practical pivot: remove what harms ecosystems now and convert it into high-value products that fund more removal. Think wakame-derived fucoidan and fucoxanthin for barrier support and collagen-friendly skincare; think water-soluble chitosan from urchin shells replacing harsh antifungals in farms, improving seed protection, and adding film-forming performance to hair care and sunscreens. After extraction, the remaining biomass flows into fertilisers and foliar sprays to rebuild soil health—no waste, just new value.
We dive into shark gates and tuna ranching, government policy gaps, and why 'commercial capacity' is the missing link between plans and thriving reefs. Henry breaks down how authorisations, pro dive teams, vessels, and onshore processing create a true ocean-to-shelf pipeline, while partnerships with abalone divers, Surfers for Climate, and research groups steer work to where it counts. The vision is clear: within a decade, juvenile kelp returns, apex predators follow, and coastal towns gain new jobs in bioproduct manufacturing alongside healthier fisheries and tourism.
This is a story of logistics and hope, engineering and ethics, and a business model built on collaborative advantage. If you’re curious about the bioeconomy, seaweed science, chitosan, and how consumer products can drive real restoration, you’ll find a roadmap you can act on. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves the ocean, and leave a review to help more people find conversations that turn problems into products.
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This experimental and emergent podcast will continue adapting and evolving in response to our ever-changing environment and the community we support. If there are any topics you'd like us to cover, folks you'd like us to bring onto the show, or live events you feel would benefit the ecosystem, drop us a line.
We're working on and supporting a range of community-led, impact-oriented initiatives spanning conservation, bioremediation, synthetic biology, biomaterials, and systems innovation.
If you have an idea that has the potential to support the thriving of people and the planet, get in contact! We'd love to help you bring your bio-led idea to life.
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Strange Attractor. Um this time around, we sat down with Henry Cole from Ropa, Regenerative Ocean Products Australia. Um Henry's been in our orbit for about two years now. I think we met him through Immersion Group, one of our alumni. And uh ever since I heard about his idea, I was like, that is exactly the kind of thinking that um I would love to see more of beginning to emerge here in Australia and the sort of thinking that we really want to try and support here at Colabs. So yeah, finding something that is a problem, you know, and turning the obstacle into the way. So really, really cool concept. Um, taking invasive species, utilizing that biomass to create value-added products, um, and you know, potentially restoring one ecosystem and regenerating another if you look at the removal of these and then the inclusion of them into fertilizers, which is just such a cool little narrative. So yeah, enjoy this conversation with Henry Cole. And if you know anyone else doing similar sort of stuff, get them in contact with us. We'd love to find ways to help or support um bring their ideas to life. Yeah, that's it. It's um we're talking about or no, not even talking. What we what did we do yesterday?
SPEAKER_02The impact uh Wednesday, Tuesday, the impact program. Yeah, so it actually was a lot of fun to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_00We're just throwing it constantly throwing you in the deep end, trying to um I I love um I love how much like someone like yourself who's like, yeah, if I I fucking I dive, I do all this crazy shit, you know. Uh and then it's like you put a camera on and you're like freeze.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do I what do I do with my hands? Yeah, Darren headlights, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating how that happens to so many people. Like for some reason, whenever you whenever you lights camera action, yeah, yeah, people are like, what am I like?
SPEAKER_02It's an interesting uh experience. And then you know, afterwards you have this sort of introspective moment, you're like, Oh, do I actually sound like that?
SPEAKER_00You do, that's the thing, right? It's like uh what is it? Something to do with you always sound deeper to yourself because of the way it resonates through your bone structure into your ears. Yeah, right, okay. So that whenever you hear yourself recorded, you're like, I really sound like high pitch.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but to everyone else, it's totally normal. Yeah, yeah, you know. That was cool. I was sort of walked into that room the other day. I was like, not really, I thought it was like an informal conversation, and then we sit down as like again, lights, camera action. It's like did prepare for this.
SPEAKER_00Well that in part, that was kind of intentional because like you never know when you're gonna have to prepare for that pitch sometimes. Like you're gonna you're just gonna be in a context and you're like, oh, okay, this is this is it. This is the moment where I have to present ropa and what I'm doing, or you know, we might have to talk about collabs. So I feel like um practicing being on when you don't think you have to be on is a really yeah useful skill.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're growing and learning all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I definitely definitely threw you in the deep end. Hey, um well, welcome. I realize I haven't even I haven't even said welcome yet. So welcome, um Henry. It's lovely to lovely to have you on the podcast and be um chatting about Ropa, Regenerative Ocean Products Uh Australia. Um yeah, it's been a long time coming. Like this has been one of those projects that um sort of hearing you come to us back in the day would have been what a year and a half?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 18 months, 24 months ago now.
SPEAKER_0024 months.
SPEAKER_02Just rolling bootstrap, no cash. Holy shit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I can I can relate to that to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I remember you coming to us with the idea, and I was just like, This makes so much sense. Um so yeah, I'd love if you want to take us back to the origin story, maybe go through what experiences sort of shaped your relationship with the ocean and then how you've ended up, you know, here.
From London Kid To Deep Sea Diver
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh well, thanks for having me, Sam. It's uh it's an interesting one. I, you know, grew up in in a city London and come from a family that is generally scared of the ocean and water, and somehow I ended up uh as a career maritime professional, you know, shaping offshore commercial diving and deep sea fishing and salvage, and ultimately ended up uh in sort of you know wanting to be in a more environmental capacity. But you know, I I my experience is through travel and you know I ended up working at a dive shop at 18 with nothing but a backpack and no money and in Honduras and you know, I think most of my place to do it, man. Oh yeah, Honduras at 18, no real worldly experience, no no understanding.
SPEAKER_00Um what drove you to go there? Because like South America is not an easy trip. Like that was my I was 21 and I went to South America as my first big overseas adventure, but like it's wild, like it's not yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think like if I had my own kids at 18, would I send them to Honduras at that time? Probably not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But um, I guess like lots of people were going traveling at the time, my friends, my community, and um they all I guess I wanted to do something a little bit different, and um, you know, not many of my friends were so interested in the marine space and diving and and surfing and these sorts of things. So naturally for me, when no one wanted to do it, I was like, let's go.
SPEAKER_00So it's not barley, it's Honduras. Hey, bring this a little bit closer. Let's get it, or we can bring your chair a little bit in. We got this. We're figuring it out as we go. This is that. Well, I can't hear it, but I assume that's much better. Yeah, cool. Yeah, sick, we're nailing it.
SPEAKER_02Um, so yeah, I uh I spent a year working at a dive shop in Honduras, which was a unique experience. And you know, I always from a young age wanted to be working in diving in the marine space, but I didn't really understand what sort of capacity that meant. Um, and so you know, it was an opportunity when you sort of like leave year 12 and you're sort of like, oh, like what do I want to do? What like who am I? Like all these sorts of questions. And you know, I always resonated with like you know, environmental and and outdoor experiences. And naturally at the end of that, I I actually met this crazy Texan, like this, you know, just absolutely like iconically, quintessentially Texan dude, everything's bigger, big cowboy hat, Justin Gonzalez. Um the name for it is yeah, oh man, this guy was wild. And um, he was actually a commercial diver, and I knew about commercial diving from like at quite a young age, and and I met him and and I was like, I'm gonna do that. And like, you know, I don't know if it was smart or not, but ultimately it's like shaped my life in a really amazing way, and I've had some like terrific experiences that you know ultimately I've been able to do lots of things that most people wouldn't necessarily get to experience, and like I've been able to work domestically and internationally, and you know, I wanted to go into wildlife filmmaking and blue planet and all these sort of grand designs, and I was like, Oh yeah, I can I can be the next Bertie Gregory or like whatever. David Atmanrah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was me. I was like, just like I'm gonna I just want to be David Atmarh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I thought it could be me, right? You know, but then you like look at that world and you're like, oh man, like it's hard to get into, and where do where do you start?
SPEAKER_00And and it's not as glorious as what it looks like either.
SPEAKER_02No, like freezing your ass off in a tent for three months, you know. I'm like, you know, we all like creature comforts to some extent, you know. So, but um yeah, and then I realized that if you wanted to work in these sort of like expedition style spaces, then you know, like the best way to do it for me really was to uh become like the best operator that I could be. So, you know, I decided that I wanted to be a master and like a skipper uh and a commercial diver. And and then I spent the next 10 years working in that space. And you know, although like I sort of somewhat drifted from my, you know, uh core values and passions initially, but like I always had the intentions of getting back there. And you know, I'm no saying although like now I'm working in like a regenerative space, you know, I suffered from the the golden handcuffs, you know. I was I was deep sea fishing, I was out there on the tuna boats in in South Australia and you know, staring down the barrel of nine meter seas. And yeah, like you know, I did it.
SPEAKER_00And what was that experience like?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, you like pretty wild because uh in many senses, like, you know, like we need the fishing industry, you know, the food security is an issue, people aren't going to stop eating fish. And so it was an opportunity where I really saw I saw impact firsthand, you know, so the scale and understanding the scale of things is really difficult to the everyday person when you don't really understand, or you just, you know, you only see this fish that rocks up in the supermarket and you're like, oh sweet, like, you know.
SPEAKER_00Was it multi-line, was it trawler?
Inside Australia’s Tuna And Shark Gates
SPEAKER_02So no, we I mean, yeah, good question, but it's kind of wild in the sense that, you know, like we look at the amount of fish that we have left in in the world, and and now, like knowing and seeing what I've seen, I kind of can totally understand that why that's the case. But you know, we had planes up in the sky that would look for these fish, and nowadays we, you know, it's yeah, it's cool, it's almost like ocean ranching. You'd go out and catch live fish, and then you'd tow them back to South Australia, and then they'd turn transfer them into ocean pens and ocean farms and feed them, and then you know, the Japanese boats would come over and after they've been fattened up and they'd get get sent all over to Japan for you know the southern bluefin industry.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So like this is a whole universe that yeah, because it's not on land and it's underwater, like don't even see it. Right. And that's I guess I'm so curious. Like, what how did you how did you even end up there to begin with? What drove you to the ocean being like because it is kind of a bit of a frontier, like it's both mesmerizing and captivating and also horrifying.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure. I mean, like, you know, being able to jump in the water with you know 10 or 20,000 Southern Bluefin tuna around you, and there's like a hurricane of fish, and you're sort of like, oh my god, like, you know, and really I remember seeing a photo of myself and it looked like there was like an IKEA shower curtain behind me, you know, and I was like, you know, I remember thinking my friend, like nowadays you'd probably say it's AI, but honestly, it was just like a GoPro Hero 7 or something back then. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, wild experiences, and and like it was super interesting. And I think I was just given the opportunity because I wanted to progress to the maritime field, and you know, some of the best seafarers and mariners out there come from the fishing industry.
SPEAKER_00And it makes sense, it's where they're in high demand, you know. So that overlap of like you've got the skill set and you can get paid for it, and people want this thing, so yeah, and so you know, like and that style of you know, fishing is you know, there's there's fishing, there's overfishing, there's sustainable fishing, and there's like what we do with the catch, right?
SPEAKER_02And all of them like mean and do something a little bit different, you know. And so, like, although I've always had these core values of like doing the best that we can and we need to be more sustainable or reducing our impact, you know, like I'm definitely not about roadblocks. I'm sort of like we need to be solutions focused and how we sort of manage these expectations of society and and food security, and also like protecting the oceans in that sense. So, you know, it was definitely eye-opening um seeing big sharks, big fish, you know, having to deal with those things. And ultimately, you know, sharks used to get in the in the nets and we used to have to get them out.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, it was uh what is that what okay, so so I'm I'm calling you up and I'm like, Henry. We've got a we've got a school of sharks that just got into a got into one of the pens or into one of the nets. Like, what is that, what are the next steps? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_02A bit of like a oh god, nah, it's not too bad, you know, like the way that uh, you know, the the tuna guys have been developing these systems for you know 20 years and and they worked out ways to to get the sharks out in a in a you know environmentally friendly way. So we have shark gates at the front of these pens. So whilst they're being towed, we'd go and dive down and we'd open up these giant square square pens, square nets, and uh essentially you'd sort of just usher and guide the sharks out, you know, and they're pretty forgiving, you know, like they they want to go, you know.
SPEAKER_00They like they've probably already eaten their fill, so they're they're not hungry. Totally. They're like, you know, I'm done, like take me out of the buffet. Like it's just I want to get out of the all you can eat.
SPEAKER_02Oh, 100%. Especially when you're dealing with like, you know, large bronze whalers and stuff, you know, when there's one or two of them, it's all it's all pretty good. They want to go, but the second they sort of realize there's more of them than they are of you, then they can be a little bit boisterous. So you kind of just get the job done and we get out of there pretty quick, pretty quick.
SPEAKER_00So I might yeah, they all must all have very different personalities as well, like each of the different species of sharks, how they interact with humans. Totally. Just hearing you say that, it sounds like quite a quite a humbling experience having to totally.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's you're in their realm, you know, and like like you said, you know, thankfully they've been well fed by the time we get there. But they're pretty grateful to get out, you know. We've sort of seen sharks that would they'd go and they'd turn around and go for a bit of a drive by and you know, or a swim by and uh yeah, you're pretty happy to see them drift off back into the ocean, which is a nice way to a good uh part of like that aspect of fishing, we're sort of you know, really able to have like low impact in terms of by catch because we maintain those sorts of systems.
SPEAKER_00And that's so good to hear because like whenever I think of bycatch, I'm probably I think my mind's probably about 15-20 years ago. You know, I remember my dad when he was younger um going out onto commercial boats and stuff like that, and just like 70% of what they catch is bycatch, and like we're completely ruining the ocean. So it's it's it's it is to your point, it's really beautiful to see that um the industry is changing and trying to do this. I mean, it's out of like honestly, it's for enlightened self-interest, right? If they completely ruin the ocean, they have no fish to catch. So it is nice to see that starting to happen, but you know, I am curious about like you know, you've seen this, like, was there a moment where you're like, oh like this is like this this system is pretty broken. Like not with not with um necessarily with fishing, because I know that um uh you know, as we were saying, this was kind of like okay, I'm in fishing. No, we're gonna have to backtrack. I realize I realize that we digress. Yeah, we I'm I'm I'm such a non-linear with my thinking with this. We haven't even we haven't even we haven't even got to the cracks, the yeah, the the cracks and then the kelp and what sort of view from here.
SPEAKER_02So this is still all yeah, so this is all pre-kelp, you know. This is pre-kelp, and I was just diving and PK, yeah, yeah, PK, God, P uh 2019 is when the journey started. So, you know, I started my career in 2013 as a professional diver, and um, you know, and these sorts of experiences were or PK were all about like me becoming the best operator that I could be. And then I sort of got into oil and gas and salvage, and I was, you know, wearing the big hard hat helmets and you know, um surface supplied diving and big vessels and these sorts of things. And um, but ultimately I sort of sort of started to see my future a little bit in some of the you know, uh the types of people that I was working with and what how their futures were shaping up. I was pretty young to be working offshore at the time, and I suddenly realized that it really wasn't the future that I wanted for myself, you know, personally, and like in terms of like fulfillment with the work that I was doing. And so I sort of started to not hit a ceiling, but there was always, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot a long way to go in diving, but I wanted to have more of an impact in terms of like what I wanted to do, and I think really working uh in deep sea fishing did sort of do that for me.
SPEAKER_00Um less of a ceiling, more of a feeling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally, you know, for sure. And um, and it was interesting. So, you know, and then fast forward to 2019, I was working in Eden in Two Fold Bay. I was doing a uh a contract for the Navy and the military. And um we I had met a marine scientist down there, really lovely dude who was like, you know, and I said that I really valued aquaculture and what it means in terms of food security and what it means in terms of like the changes that we're seeing in in sort of industry and our planet and sort of like growing populations. And you know, I think it's such an important thing that we that we need to sort of invest in because there's you know lots of problems with aquaculture already, and like you know, we definitely need to be aware of those problems and they're sort of a bit more systemic because of the pressures and the demand that we that we have as a society for seafood. I mean, people aren't gonna stop eating seafood, right? You know, like I'm not like I love seafood, you know, so I'm like I'm no saint, you know, but I think like ultimately I just wanted to uh have the right kind of impact or reduce my impact in a way that felt better for me, you know. So I'm not like saying, you know, people shouldn't eat seafood. I'm just saying like, you know, instead of like people putting up roadblocks, we should really be considering like, okay, well, what's a solution? And like even if your solution is only a medium-term solution, i.e., I'm just gonna reduce what I eat until we have like the technology and advancements and and infrastructure and capacity that enables us to have a sustainable fishery, although still not sure if that's possible. I like to think so. Um fingers crossed.
SPEAKER_00We've got a couple of members, you know, here working on that. So Nautilus collaboration and soon Oceanarch as well. So starting to get a little bit of a marine ecosystem within our ecosystem.
Building Victoria’s First Seaweed Farm
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's cool, you know. And so I then looked into, I think it was yeah, 2019 at this point, and I um had just moved to Victoria. It's like um, or 20, 2019, 20, 2020, and uh COVID was about to happen. And I ultimately started working in aquaculture on the Mornington Peninsula. I was uh the manager of a muscle farm learning about aquaculture. And um I yeah, wanted to get more involved in this space and understand what these um, you know, what these industries were were like and how I could maybe diversify myself and um in terms of like my output as a as a professional. And then I had got that did this deep dive into this seaweed called Asparagopsis, and you know, I was just like self-taught, self-learning. And like six months later, I got this phone call from like an old client of mine through like ExxonMobil or something, and and was like, you know, like offshore they used to call me Progressive Henry, and like you know, a little bit left field, and I was like, oh yeah, sweet, like you know, that is what it is. And um, but that was the reality. And he calls me up and he's like, Hey, are you still like in a seaweed? Like, what's the go? And I was like, totally, and anyway, these guys sort of headhunted me from sort of one was from um Gippsland and the other WA, and I ended up uh sort of like working for them as and and sort of built the the first commercial seaweed farm in in Victoria. And so this was a really unique opportunity, and I was so so interested about the Was that when they were in here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, immersion group because they were here for what three three months. Yeah. Were you working in the lab? No, no, no, no. In the field no one wants me in the lab. You know, with you look all right in the lab. The video we filmed, you look you look good.
SPEAKER_01Uh yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, you know, I like logistics specialists maybe, but uh lab operator, I've been told. Yeah, yeah. But um, so yeah, that was that was with those guys. And um, I had the opportunity to travel internationally and go to different places and countries to look at um, you know, kelp and algae cultivation techniques around the world. And the goal was to come back to Australia and uh try and apply those technologies and techniques using local systems that fit our environment here. And and ultimately, yeah, we spent like a million bucks like building the first seaweed farm and and we grew, you know, like we we did successfully grow asparagopsis, which is a huge achievement, but um, you know, it was so, so difficult. And, you know, when you're working in a world with, you know, that has uh when that technology has the potential to have so much change, like people want results and they want it now. And you know, there's lots of competitors working in that space. So there was like a real race to, you know, scale and be able to do that effectively. And and you know, the science is there, it works, you know, but scaling that industry is really tough. And I think that more so it's about like, you know, the fate, the challenges that the domestic seaweed cultivation industry face, because it's still in its infancy, I would say. It's not that compared to like Japan or totally hundreds of years of experience, and so you know, the masters and like you know, everything Japan does seems to be to like the premium quality, right? You know, and so you know, we've we're playing playing catch up. Um but it was three years working with those guys, and I spent um three years doing field research, feel three years doing data collection. I had two vessels, teams of divers, and you know, we we built the farm, we built these seeding technologies, and you know, it was a super, super exciting experience. And um, and yeah, it was it was you know, I'm very proud that we did actually grow the seaweed in the end, you know.
SPEAKER_00It's no mean fit. Like we've been obviously, you know, there's other kelp companies we're helping out, like Os Kelp as well, totally for Colonia Radiata. It's no mean feat. It is so much effort to make it happen. And even just before you you even get the first line in with kelp on it, just the effort to get the permits, the regulations, all of that stuff is yeah, it is so much effort. So definitely marathon hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hats off to you for for making that happen. Um so I yeah, again, I'm now I can now I can get back to that sort of question, which was sort of looking at Like so you you you do you've been working on this, you know, it's it's successful, but you've realized shit, okay, like this is great, but it's probably not gonna have like the the positive impact that could happen quicker. So like I'd love to know when when it was that you kind of realized that, you know, maybe the problem is the solution. So Totally. Yeah, looking at those invasive species and then being like, why not why not just use that?
The Wakame Problem Becomes An Opportunity
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so it actually happened whilst you know doing all this like field work for asparagopsis as like a cultivation um industry for for kelp and algae. And I just couldn't help but notice all of this undaria penetifida and all wakame, you know, and you know, like it's I love seaweed, you know, like diving with seaweed is this really incredible experience. It's it sort of dances in the current, it's quite romantic, you know, there's lots of things living in it, it's super cool.
SPEAKER_00It's like a rain, it's like underwater rainforest. Yeah, when you go through, it's yeah, it's one of the most beautiful things diving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very meditative, and like you never know what you're gonna see. And there's all these cool species, and you know, like crayfish and abalone, it's a good place to find dinner, and you know, but yeah, they're really remarkable ecosystems. And um, you know, I was very, very passionate about you know working in that space, and and um and ultimately we started seeing, you know, there's been wakame uh in Australia since like the late 90s and uh and early 80s, but how did it get here? Well, so this is like the systemic issue, right? So like uh when we see invasive species and marine pest species, like their uh ecological consequences, and so the systemic issue was that they've generally come from ships ballast from all over the world, you know, so it's generally always some sort of human impact interaction. And so, and just because we only discovered it in the 80s and 90s, I mean that doesn't mean that it wasn't here earlier. It just means that we weren't aware of it, you know, and so it's now prolific in Tasmania and here in Victoria. Um, you know, we operate from Port Phillip Bay down to the surf coast. But now we've even seen it in the last few years in September 2023, it's now spread into South Australia. So we know that like all the modeling actually suggests that ultimately Wakame will end up over in Western Australia. It will likely it it can happen, it probably will. But the best thing that we can do is is manage it. So, you know, really when I started noticing the amount of biomass and I sort of saw the the challenges that you know the domestic cultivation industry was facing, you know, I suddenly didn't really see that my impact was it was sort of becoming less fulfilling or less meaningful because we always knew with that other industry um that it was going to be such a that's a 20-year marathon, right?
SPEAKER_00Getting it to scale is the issue, whereas you've already got like wakame uh everywhere and the the sea urchins, they're already at scale, you know. Totally like they are like bumper crops, you know. It's it's less about the scale and more about how do we do with it? How do we remove them? What do we do with the biomass?
SPEAKER_02So it was really an opportunity and and it's I mean, like I yeah, when I kept diving and I uh in my own time, I was out there and I was thinking, oh, like where is this stuff? And you know, and it just was prolific everywhere. And so I had all these like wild ideas about what could I do with it. And you know, we thought about a distillery for gin and vodka and seaweed lagers and all these sorts of things. And but ultimately, I sort of realized that if I wanted to have an impact with the environment, you also need to have an impact with the consumer. And so, like, as consumers hold brands and manufacturers more responsible for you know sustainable practices like more than ever before, it was really important to me. Like, how can we create like a premium and bespoke product that someone is actually proud of using? And I thought that that notion to me really stuck with me.
SPEAKER_00And I think like ASOP meets who gives a crap.
SPEAKER_02100%, you know, and so like I think realistically, like that's kind of the direction that we're heading in. And so, you know, we're averaging, you know, we know that at every stage of our operation we're having an impact. So, you know, when you remove an invasive species or marine pest species um into the lab, you're at value adding, and then you're also providing a uh someone with a product that resonates with them in a way that not only makes them feel good and like, but actually the product does what they want it to, you know, because these things have all these incredible properties. And you know, we're still really just scratching the surface with that and the diversity of like the applications of what we can do, or maybe what we you know will end up doing, you know, it's still ever-changing and and evolving. So um, yeah, it was sort of those last moments um uh working at the seaweed farm. And uh I knew that I had the skill set and I knew that I had the experience and um and I had the network to to make it happen. So um, you know, I approached the government, I became an authorized person for the removal. Um, I told them my plan. Um I think they thought I was mad, but you know.
SPEAKER_00Um normally that means you're uh you're onto something good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's just like some skipper, surfer, diver just wanting to pull out invasives, you know.
Turning Biomass Into Products People Want
SPEAKER_00Left wing Harry. Yeah, progressive Henry strikes again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um, but it was cool, you know. And so like I was when it was sort of validating that people saw value in these, in these ideas and this energy. And um, and since then, you know, it was sort of like I think we we just decided that I've got to have an impact and I've got to do it now. So, you know, I worked extremely hard to to get uh to get approval and and I did. And so the next thing to do was to actually go out and start removing it. And so not a huge amount of thought as to what was gonna happen next, but like, you know, so we went out and we were averaging, you know, half a ton per day of removing invasives, which was like terrific. And it was sort of like we got back to the boat ramp, you know, you're cold, you're wet, and you've suddenly just got like 500 kilos of seaweed, and you're like, right, like, and it was really, really awesome because I was looking at it, I was like, like, you know, we've done this, and this is like a direct contributor, uh, contributor to, you know, um reducing ecological harm and sort of increasing ecological function, you know. So we're like setting ourselves up to have like an increase in biodiversity, stop the displacement of native species. And, you know, that was actually really quite a proud moment. And um, you know, me and then my general manager had hired a commercial kitchen, and so this was down in like Rye or Mornington or something, and we stayed up till 5 a.m. hand washing each individual piece of seaweed, cutting it with kitchen knives, trying to get it down. And like, you know, we we were sort of like we've got to find a more effective method of doing this.
SPEAKER_00Well, because we don't necessarily, and this is you would have realized this pretty quickly, like we don't necessarily have, I'm sure there might be ways in which we could retrofit using other processing facilities, but we don't we don't have the infrastructure to do this sort of processing at scale.
SPEAKER_02So but we can do, and there's lots of like you know, food processing uh equipment that we can utilize, and we sort of are starting to build a bit of a uh production facility processing sort of plan, and we know that like it's not it's definitely very, very achievable.
SPEAKER_00It's not rocket science.
SPEAKER_02Nah, like, you know, that comes later, you know. So I'm kidding. Um but so you know, we knew that we could we sort of we realized like the impact was real and like it was tangible, and it meant that you know, um when you're trying to get people to use products, you know, they actually they want to have a real impact. It's not like saying, oh, in five years we're gonna do this, in ten years we might do this. It's like actually like the impact is now, it's real.
SPEAKER_00And I can remove five tons of sea urchins totally. We just like like we can make that happen. And then I guess it's like, what do we what do we do next?
SPEAKER_02Totally. So we realized that um, you know, the next part of the process was sort of like, okay, well, what what we have all this biomass and we need to find products that you know will always be in demand. And so we had to sort of like look at the like the elasticity of like, you know, certain markets and economies, and and that sort of meant like we looked at, you know, ultimately ended up on personal care products and moisturizers and hair care products, and and we've sort of been able to cross over um, you know, malt like a single regenerative feedstock, i.e. the sea urchins or uh all the kelp, and we can diversify our output across multiple industries.
SPEAKER_00So that's what I find so fascinating, right? So like you might get so much value out of a very specific thing that might be needed for skincare or or whatnot. But then you might be left with 95% of the biomass after extraction.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
Sea Urchins, Barren Reefs, And Policy Gaps
SPEAKER_00And then it's like, great, well, we've made heaps of you know, like potential of this product, and that can go here and that can generate revenue. But you know, rather than just seeing the rest as waste, it's like, well, then this might be able to be turned into fertilizer or something else that can, you know, regenerate topsoils on land. So it's like quite a beautiful little loop and cycle. I'd love to know um, like I know you have explored this, sort of like, is there a is there a way in which we can look at turning into fertilizer? I'd love to know how that's tracking or what you see are maybe the top five, you know, um pathways with which some of this biomass could go into.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so which is a kind of like the most exciting thing about it, right? You know, like we have all this capacity and options and and and now that we've sort of we've sort of developed all these strategic partnerships with different industries, and what we've noticed is that people are, you know, the consumer says we want product A, i.e. moisturizers and serums. Great. Well then through our extraction process, we take what we need uh for from that part of the process, and then we continue to refine it. And so the actual physical biomass can be put into um fermentation tanks, or we can put them into agitators and vessels, and we can leave that, and that can become fertilizer, or then we can continue to refine our extracts to specific active compounds, you know, whether it's like Fucasanthin or Fucoidon. Um, so we have those opportunities. Um, and then like what are the applications of those um specific uh compounds and properties? You know, we can go, we know that undaria and wakame is really great for uh, you know, there's so many studies that show its uses for like anti-burn, anti-acne, anti-scarring type treatments, but then it's also you know, it's it's you know, chemical profile and makeup that makes it sort of uh really good for it from its like amino acids into uh collagen production and elasticity for the skin. So obviously, people there's such a high demand in that. And we know that even though we have like a cost of living crisis, people want their skin to feel good. You know, we live in Australia, you know, we we constantly cop the sun, people care about how their skin feels and how it looks. So we know that even through these economic pressures, like the elasticity of it says that we know that this is always going to be a product that's in demand, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or it's it's something that I don't know, like if you've heard us talking about the bioeconomy and like the four pillars of like food, material, energy, health. But it's like this is something that kind of spans all of those, which is why I I've I I went on the last podcast and I'm like, I'm bullish, I'm bullish on hemp and kelp. I think they're just two, like one ocean-based, one land-based um thing that you know obviously you need a diverse array of multiple different things. Yeah. Um, you know, and then maybe Kambanga is another one locally. But the like they feel like two things where there's so many different uses for them, like as well as like soft plastics. We haven't even touched on that. Like you need another podcast for that. Yeah, you met um, you met the compound crew, yeah, who are you know, obviously people that we're supporting here as well, looking at working on that. There's people like Sway and a few others. Sway is doing packaging over in the States, and then I think Alginit uh using like to make a like a weaveable fiber. So like there's so much, but it's all so new, and it's like we still need to build all of that, I guess, infrastructure to um to make it happen.
SPEAKER_02Uh I think this is why like utilizing uh an available biomass that actually only causes problems is the way to go right now. It doesn't mean that you know cultivation isn't going to be a part of the future because they actually contribute an ecological function in terms of you know habitat, nurseries, but then also what those products are used for, but then also carbon sequestion. So there's like there's a mole, it's all vertically integrated in its own way, which is really, really cool. So, you know, I think realistically the way that I see you know regenerative industries going is that each operator or outfit will probably focus on like very specific niches. Um, but most of those guys, you know, are still working towards obtaining biomass, and where we sort of come in slightly different and makes it makes us you know differentiate us from other people is that we have this biomass available. And so, you know, and we look at like, you know, if we now look start to look at like sea urchins or centros, and so you know, that is a wild, wild concept because that is a environmental consequence or so a human consequence, right?
SPEAKER_00So do you want to yeah, do you want to delve into like the like both sea urchins and starfish challenges in Victoria? Like what is happening beneath the surface?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so like in Victoria, it's this kind of like this two-sided coin, right? Because like um, you know, we're in the southern ocean, it's rugged, it's raw, it's beautiful, it's you know, uh, it has uh uh such a large amount of biomass at the moment. And you know, the Victorian coastline, like on its day, like it as a dive site, it can challenge the the the Great Barrier Reef, you know. But most people don't associate Victoria with this.
SPEAKER_00It's not tropical.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not tropical, you know, they didn't think to no one's like they want to go to Portland to have a look at the kelp forests maybe.
SPEAKER_00No, why not?
SPEAKER_02I mean so like you know, it's it's fun, you know, but people don't really associate with that, you know. So, you know, trying to change the narrative and and help people understand that. But so there is that aspect, but then the other aspect is like, you know, human impact and what we're seeing in terms of climate change. We're seeing like, you know, the East Australian current, you know, is now sending warmer water further south, further than ever before.
SPEAKER_00It's impacting a lot of the kelp's ability to procreate, especially like the ecological radiator and stuff like that. Absolutely. That's why we've got the kelp IVF clinics here, because they're like struggling to recreate out in the ocean.
SPEAKER_02And then so then that's compounded by the fact that we now have so we have like onarium wakame, which is a non-native invasive species, but then we have a native marine pest species, which is the long-spine sea urchin, which is from nort northern New South Wales. But now, as we're seeing like, you know, uh what's called range extending from species, you know, we're finding corals in Sydney Harbour and further further south than ever before.
SPEAKER_00What's always gonna like everything is gonna move like over the next 150 years, everything's gonna move about 100 Ks south.
SPEAKER_02100%.
SPEAKER_00Like everything. And we actually need to, if we want ecosystems to not just survive but thrive, we actually need to somewhat support it. But to your point, some things move faster than others, which throws completely out of whack the like the equilibrium or the ecological dynamics of like a safe or just like healthy food web.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, absolutely. And like you're noticing like that all these like habitat structures and those food webs are now like sort of kind of fractured because you know like as we've now got the long spine sea urchin, you know, heading south at such an unbelievable rate, like you know, uh they are they can release uh a huge amount of spores.
SPEAKER_00And dude, what was that stat about how many per square meter?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's like so like if you compare it to the crown of thorns, for example, which everyone knows about, you know, you sort of like it only takes about 15 or 20 crown of thorns per hectare to have like a disastrous ecological impact. Um, but right now, you know, you can find areas that have 100,000 urchins per hectare, and it sort of equates to about 20 to 25 urchins, you know, really the pricks of things, you know, like spiny devils, honestly. And like, you know, so what we notice is that they just polish the rocks, you know, so they just like you know, move south, and they're as any algae or kelp sort of like lands on an uh uh on the on this on this rock and on this reef.
SPEAKER_00So they eat the like the gametophyte or like not necessarily so they don't actually eat the do they eat the like the established adult as well?
Chitosan From Urchin Shells
SPEAKER_02Well absolutely they just they just graze, doesn't yeah, they just graze, but then as you have like the juvenile kelp um or algae, like as they land in these on these barren rocks, they just polish it. So now we're we go out there and you've got these um urchin barons, and it is just like a white desert moonscape, pretty eerie sort of experience, you know. And so like really what we've noticed is that we need to have some sort of commercial capacity to sort of act. And so, you know, now that we've got the urchins are moving, you know, there's like a 2,000 kilometer stretch of coastline that they're now impacting. Tasmania was proactive in their approach to dealing with the urchins, and they got government funding to sort of assist in kilograms per uh harvested in terms of a quota, but New South Wales and Victoria are a little bit behind on that. And so, you know, what would you like to see?
SPEAKER_00What what what what makes sense from your perspective, do you think, in terms of an incentive or support from the government to make this happen? What's worked?
SPEAKER_02Well, what's worked? Well, in Tasmania it did work, but now what we do see is that the marine bioproducts CRCP, they're a grant funding application. Um, they support um the growing Australian marine bioproducts industry. You know, they think it's going to be worth up to$700 billion by 2035, and they're handing out uh up to$59 million uh in grant money, you know, for projects like ours, you know. Um, so there is capacity, there is there is a transition, um, and you know, we are seeing systemic help, which is great. Um, but really we're at this kind of point now where we need to be doing things proactively, not reactively. And so, you know, and I think historically we're always quite reactive as a society and mankind. We're like, oh, like this is cool, they were doing this, but now we're sort of realizing that you need to be proactive in in our approaches to these sorts of things. So um, but it the problem has now got so bad that we're seeing that even the urchin divers and abalone industries, you know, these guys are going out there and they're culling these urchins off their own backs. And the reason why this is so significant is because what we see is you've got all these regional areas like Malacuta and Eden and Gippsland, and you know, these areas like they thrive off fishing industries, they're the backbone of the community. So you have these like knock-on effects of this like human impact, right, from climate change. And so now that the urchins are destroying all the kelp and all the reef, they're all gone, we're losing biodiversity, we're losing biomass, and then all of a sudden, these industries that support all these, you know, social and and community, you know, benefits, like they're now gone. So, you know, towns and industries are dying, and you know, it's it's devastating. So really, you know, and what's gonna be left is just white rock at the end of it.
SPEAKER_00That's it's so fascinating, right? Because like I was literally having a conversation just before this with one of my other mates, Josh Devine. He's um looking to like systemic investing and stuff like that. But he he was noting that like indigenous mob have been harvesting these spiny sea urchins since forever. So we they're they're like and we import all of our sea urchin from like a food-based perspective from overseas. So it's like it's interesting to think that this could also be a food, like a viable like food, as well as a biomaterial or something like that if you use the chitin from the shell to make you know biomaterials or stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02I think historically, like they've started to they had to sort of create a market for the sea urchins, and now a lot of it is export. So it's going out to Dubai, it's going to Singapore, and now they're trying to create more of a domestic market from our own products. And you know, it has potential, but we kind of need to get Australia to get on board with eating uni or kinna or sea urchin, you know, and I guess it because it's not this mainstream, you know, white barramundi or kingfish. Yeah, it's delicious, man. Yeah, it's so good. Like, you know, if you're out there free diving all day and you haven't got a snack, you just dive down, crack a shell, you know, you're on. It's like extra, it's just instant energy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, refreshing. You know, it's not for everyone, it's like it's not particularly fishy, it's not, you know, it's uh it's unique, that's for sure.
Brand, Traceability, And Zero Waste Streams
SPEAKER_00You know, still a bit of an umami flavor bottle. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's I like it, you know. You should, we should get something. No, you're gonna you're gonna take me out.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna we're gonna hunt some sea urchin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, let's do it. Um, but so you know, and then now what we you know, I sort of saw this issue and saw that we've got, you know, all these marine pests and invasive species. So I was like, well, here's the biomass. And and again, like, you know, there are places and seafood processing facilities that, you know, um, one, there is there's too much urchin out there for them to handle, okay. Uh, there's limited quotas available um out there so we can only harvest so much, despite the fact we should probably be harvesting more. We've now introduced culling programs to, you know, prevent as a preventative measure to you know stop the spread of of the of the urchins. But now it was sort of like well, we have more systemic issues in the sense that it's costing uh seafood processing facilities money to get rid of the urchin shell. And so I was like, we can fix that. You know, that's like you know, we you know, solutions, right? So uh we then did a deep dive and we've started. Started, you know, Ropa as a as a as a business, you know, we started developing a new process to um extract water-soluble kitesan. And so ultimately look at you know, it's gonna be personal care and hair care products. You know, it's really good for film forming. You'd use it in your hair, no doubt.
SPEAKER_00I don't use anything, I just wake up. Are you kidding me? No, I do. I um back in the back in the day when I used to do hair modeling and all the other random stuff, I um I always had to had to throw stuff in the hair because you just get forced to, but no, I'm I'd much prefer to just wake up and just brush it back and be done with it.
SPEAKER_02But this is the thing, right?
SPEAKER_00You know, if we had like natural bioproducts, you know see what we're doing here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. So like, and there's so much pressure on us, you know, from like um, you know, from industry as well to to have like natural bioproducts as opposed to these synthetic alternatives that have long-lasting damage and and effects, you know, whether it's fertilizer or antifungal and antibacterial properties for uh for crops, you know, we know that kitazan is is antibacterial and antifungal. So, like, you know, and it's quite potent, you know, you don't need much of it to, you know, put it through folia um spray applications to to have an impact. And so, you know, that's just one application. And then we've also got you know what we can use it for in terms of cosmetics and skincare. Yeah, you know, we're actively working on its water resistant properties in terms of like a coating, you know, we think that it's gonna be a really interesting ingredient for uh making like a water resistant sunscreen. So instead of using interesting. Yeah, so you know, we're now taking like this marine. Absolutely. Yeah, I read this really interesting paper and it was sort of saying that we could use it. It's really great against oral pathogens. So you could put it on like, you know, screws that go in your mouth and stuff like that. So yeah, and so like, you know, we're still learning and we're still discovering and working, working out what exactly we're gonna do next, you know. But right now we've sort of we've got to a point where we figured that we can actually, you know, we can justify um, you know, starting to process and produce, produce a product out of this. And um, you know, the next step is gonna be, you know, production and trialing it. So um yeah, so there's, you know, we we've got agricultural, we've got personal hair hair care and products, and then also there's wound healing applications uh and medicinal and pharmaceutical properties way downstream, you know. But like, but they exist.
SPEAKER_00There's something where you can start now and work towards these because you've got to build entire industries here. But yeah, no, I mean, there's just something super elegant about turning like something that's an ecological problem and then finding a way to solution right to turn that into yeah, the problem is the solution. It's like a I don't know, it's a classic. I feel like the the obstacle is the way, it's like the classic stoic thing, but problem is the solution is also like a really useful way of framing and thinking about doing a startup, especially in the like regenerative sort of space as well.
Collaboration Over Competition
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, so it's pretty telling of the ocean, right though, because like you know, the ocean will humble you, you know, it's like it nature generally wins and it's throwing all these problems at you. It's like, oh hey, like you know, this is a problem for you, like let's let's use it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's work with it, let's I keto the system. Um, so I guess you're looking what what's next from like a so you've got these potential products, like what are you doing now in the lab? What are you needing to to work towards? Like, where are you at timeline-wise with with like raising or working on things? So we've we've talked about it all. I'd love to get like let's peer under the hood.
SPEAKER_02Like, what are we doing? So last year we finalized our B2B, like business-to-business extract that we can actually formulate into our own skincare formulations. Um, regenerative ocean products. We recently were approved to fit for the use of our extract in uh some third-party manufacturer manufacturing facilities, which was like a huge milestone for us in total validation. People have seen the the third-party analysis and testing that we've done, they've seen the results and and and now it's actually out there, it's available. Um, we've recently increased our talent pool and brought on a head of uh head of skincare and cosmetics, you know, really talented 10-year veteran um of the personal care game, and uh and is starting now to do our first formulations for moisturizers and serums. And so we are going into a crowdsource funding campaign with virtual uh launching in March, April. Um, and so post-capital raise will be launching our first moisturizer and serum serum range in spring 2026, which is super exciting. And I think this was like we you know, we've made a tangible in impact on the ground, and then we've made a tangible impact in the lab, right? But then now it's the opportunity is to actually present that to people who who actually care, you know. And so um that is actually probably going to be the most satisfying moment is like having a product to give to someone and say, like, you know, you know, every time, you know, like revenue and products sold actually are the underpin of our restoration efforts and and letting people be a part of that journey. So the next step is to collaborate in terms of investment, but then also in terms of like uh, you know, more industry partners and stakeholders. Uh so we'll launch our launch our range in in October, hopefully. Uh and then we'll continue the production or development of our Kitazan-based products. So we've been approached uh most recently by an agricultural fund to look at water solubility of Kitazan for you know uh foliar spray applications. Um, but then we're also we're able to vertically integrate that extraction methodology uh across two industries, right? So we can just take it to different levels of refinement. One will go into cosmetics and then one will go into agriculture. Yeah. And then we've still got all this extra biomass that we, you know, will probably find something else to work with. Um, you know, so we're still yeah, we're still developing products in demand, we're still developing uh the technology, uh, but we've hit some significant milestones already, which we're really, really excited to share through virtual.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that'll be going live, what, in three weeks, four weeks?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the expressions, the EOIs go live 24th of March. And then exciting. Yeah, nerve-wracking, exciting, all the above. But it's yeah, you know, it's one of the things that I'm really enjoying about this, you know, process and time in life is that actually just uh uh is the engagement and and sharing the experience now. It's sort of like we've been doing this, me and there's now a team of six of us. Um and you know, uh yeah, starting to bring people in, you know, to to help, you know, collaborate. And actually, you know, no one wants to do these sorts of things alone. And what we're finding is that by collaborating with, you know, industry stakeholders and industry partners, uh, you know, our progress is accelerating massively.
Ecological Success And Jobs In 10 Years
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, like this is the operating logic for a regenerative business is collaborative advantage, not competitive advantage. Absolutely. And I think that most folks, let's say our age, who are trying to get into business and trying to do well by doing good, like you realize this has to be the way that it works. Yeah, it's like through building positive interactions with other organizations that actually increases and improves each of your own resilience. And yes, I can imagine you'd start noticing that all of these insights that you've learned from looking at marine ecosystems and how to support a healthy thriving ecosystem, you realize that that can actually be mapped onto an organization's ecosystem. Yep. There's actually like a pretty close correlation. And it's like, okay, interesting. So, you know, there's trophic cascades of resources and all this sort of stuff. And you start realizing that, you know, it's not a one-to-one, but there's a lot of similar analogies that, you know, if you want to build a regenerative business, you know, you can probably learn from nature's principles and how to apply that. Absolutely. Um, and I guess, yeah, I'd I'd love to love to hear like when you use the word regenerative, like what does that what does that mean to you? And like what does that look like in a functioning marine ecosystem?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean like it can be interpreted in a number of ways. To me, it means capacity, I think, you know, and like by removing uh an invasive kelp, you know, we're removing ecological harm, um, you know, but then regenerative can also mean like adding kelp, which you know adds ecological function, you know, and like one is removing uh an imbalance and the other one is uh increasing capacity, but like both are different interventions, you know. And so when we're looking at regenerative, I think it means that you know we have to do something, and it's part, you know, and even if what you're doing is only part of the solution, well, like that's a building block. And so like those sorts of things are extremely important, you know. I mean, we could all throw our hands in the air and just go, oh, like it's not working, but you know, it's it's part of it, right? So um, and what we see from like removing that invasive, uh the invasive species and marine pest species, we're seeing like an increase in uh biodiversity, or we're setting them up to succeed to have that increase in biodiversity and sort of protecting those hatcheries and nurseries for those like macro species that ultimately form the foundations of you know, all of you know, everything that we're sort of talking about from you know increasing biomass to a fishery to an industry to you know regional society and communities, and you know, it has this like massive domino and knock-on effect that that really starts at such like a tiny, tiny level.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think the just hearing hearing what you've said, I feel like we've got a similar sort of approach to like what that might mean. And like to me, it's like um, you know, can be interpreted as giving more than you take, you know. So, or it can be like what you're doing, where it's like we are we are removing something that is interfering with nature's capacity to create conditions to regenerate itself. And and through removing that thing and then getting out of the way and letting nature do the work, it can you know rebuild its bioproductive capacities. But yeah, I feel like that there's there's definitely something there, like there's a lot of people who use the word regenerative and you're like this actually that's not very regenerative. Um and that and that's fine. Like this this is always the case when new words become trendy and a and a buzzword, but you know, something like this where you're taking taking something that is actively degrading and degenerating a marine ecosystem, you're taking that out, allowing that to regenerate. And then the fact that you can take this, create, you know, products for people who are wanting to use this, but then also that that some of that kelp, some of that byproduct might go to the soil to regenerate um our top soils. Like to me, that's just such a beautiful, not only is it a beautiful narrative, but a it's a beautiful demonstrator project for what a regenerative enterprise could be.
SPEAKER_02But not just like in terms of like ecologically, you know, when we look at like uh society and culture, you know, like that really shapes uh a lot of things. And and I think like, you know, what's important to to note is that like we want the consumers and we want people to be really proud of the products that they're using, and that is like there is a societal shift in that direction. So you know, they kind of go hand in hand, you know, a little bit, which is you know, the benefit there is also, you know, we we know that we're having a positive impact and we know that people feel proud of it. And it's you know, that's the fulfilling bit, that's the me the meaningful bit is you know, co-aligning, you know, consumer goals with you know environmental restoration.
Funding, Crowdfunding, And Next Steps
SPEAKER_00And just making the right decision easier for people. I feel like it's not like people don't want to do the right thing. Well, it's not easy, you know. Literally, like the whole system is structurally set up to uh to make it not easy. Yeah, um, so it kind of makes sense. But I can I can just imagine this perfect world where I'm getting a rope a product and it's sent in a plastic bag. Well, that's not plastic actually. It's plastic, it's made of it's made of kelp, you know, and then inside is there's the packaging, and it's made that packaging's like you know, grown from mycelium. Yeah, totally. And then in that you've got the the packaging of the container that is like, you know, again, could be kelp, could be some other biomaterial, could be could be the earth in the stars, who knows, you know. Yeah, so I I can just see what's beautiful about this as well, is that yeah, there could be the potential to utilize it in it's like like when you go to Japan, you're like, all right, you have soy sauce and you have tofu, and then you have you know, you you might have something else, and it's like you're having you pretty much just had edamame in six different ways. Yeah, I feel like this is kind of something that you can be like, here's kelp in five ways.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, we're we're working on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I love that. Um, and also just I I love this notion of like setting things up to be paid to do the right thing. Um yeah, I mean, we're not being paid yet, but like but hypothetically, rather, it's like you know, people will buy this product which then allows you to facilitate the marine restoration, like that sort of stuff is fascinating. But to your point, like why why are you not being why are we not being paid? You know, yeah, why aren't we? You know, why aren't we? Why aren't you getting paid for this? So you were saying that you know Tasmania's done this, you know, New South Wales, it might not be happening. Um, I assume that it seems like a logical thing for this to happen. So one thing that you realize quite a quite a lot when you get into the startup space is that you might look at it from the outside and be like, well, this is evidently the most obvious thing that we need to do. Why are we not addressing this intervention point? Here are like three ways that we can make it happen. Such a simple solution. Yep. However, you start to realize that there is like a web of dark matter behind a thing, you know, whether it is being beladen by bureaucracy or whether it is informal social networks with a crazy amount of power that can, let's say, control things to benefit themselves and maybe not um uh doing things that are in service to the collective. This is something that we speak about quite a lot. It's like most of humans' problems at the moment are collective coordination failures. It's not that we don't have the solution or a way to be able to make something happen. It's like the entrenched status quo.
SPEAKER_02We're we're almost there, right? You know, like we're almost there. Okay, and there's like a couple of things about it. It's like, you know, um, like we take the sea urchins, for example, and you know, like the impact of of not harvesting them is, you know, devastating, you know. But then like um, sorry, the the cost of harvesting them is extremely expensive, you know, like having the the the capacity to actually remove remove sea urchins is so expensive.
SPEAKER_00Because it's all done by hand at the moment, right?
SPEAKER_02All done by hand.
SPEAKER_00And like you literally putting on that wetsuit a Dyson where you're vacuuming them up?
SPEAKER_02No, no, not yet. You know, we could get a dredge for sure, like you know, but so there is work in progress, you know.
SPEAKER_00There isn't any industrial way to acquire sea agents yet.
SPEAKER_02No, not that I'm aware of. I think oh next startup, let's go.
SPEAKER_00Another one. Oh my gosh. Okay, cool.
How To Get Involved
SPEAKER_02So, like, so yeah, the cost of removing them is so expensive, but like the cost of not doing it, you know, uh how much would you get out in an hour as a per as a as a oh man, okay. So I know like I took like the best way to like sort of like get the metrics on this is you've got to actually actually be out there and talk to the guys who who do this like week in, week out. And you know, a few years ago, you know, we see you know, some guys would be culling say 6,000 CH in a three-hour dive, you know, and like these guys are getting a ton a day kind of thing. Um, but we've got like you know, okay, without digressing too hard, but like so like you know, we have this issue and you know, we look at like you know what's systemic about it and like in terms of like policy and government and like why why we aren't doing more about it. And you know, so the government put out like the uh national marine pest action plan. Um and so when you're reading these plans and um yeah, yeah, exactly. Terrible name, but like and like but what's crazy about it is like you know, I was reading this thing and I was like, man, like I was like, are you kidding? Like, you know, we we we know that we can do like the government is very, very supportive, you know, like and they want things to happen and they want support, but you know, these these documents they basically suggest that they lack commercial capacity to do so. And the problem is, and this is what you know, referring back to what I was saying, like, you know, removing this stuff is super expensive, but then you're talking like you need professional divers and not just like your patty open water guys, you know, you need especially marine experts and uh and expertise and people who can go and you know, not everyone wants to put on a cold wetsuit and freeze their ass off for six to ten hours a day in the Southern Ocean, you know, it's it's a hard job. So, you know, um, but what what I found out is that we basically lack the commercial capacity. And it was, you know, my background was it was a it was the right fit, you know, and it's sort of, you know, I guess after, you know, cultivating seaweed, you know, it was sort of like a a more of a moral obligation and a meaningful impact and you know, for for me personally anyway. So it was about creating a ocean positive platform that enables us to do that right. And so we're so close to actually, you know, accelerating this into a, you know, something that is, you know, we have the capacity to do, you know, a few tons a week, but then taking this to do many tons a week, you know, and actually building the the processing and production facilities required to to put these products where they need to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, to your point, it's like it is it's fascinating because like this sort of thing is actually going to benefit everyone. Long term, alright. Long term, long term it's gonna benefit everyone, but sometimes in the short term, it could be seen as a threat or something like that. So it's like, uh, or like, oh, we don't really know. So, you know, and then that tooing and froing and twiddling of the thumbs, and it's like by the time that happens, you know, they've come through and they've too late.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is the thing is that you know, when you put it back to, you know, we look at society and this like shifting perspective perspective of like what's important and what we need to be doing, you know, like culture ultimately, you know, shapes and governs or influences policy, I should say. And so, you know, it's actually, you know, we as the consumers and we as the manufacturers or processes, you know, we have a a responsibility to to you know set people up to succeed, like make it easier. It's not easier, but it's like it's definitely not easier.
SPEAKER_00But like if we actually create the building blocks that well, the context to make that the right decision, yeah, the easy decision, the one that works, it just yeah, it's like uh behavior change through that sort of way of making it desirable and viable and feasible, yeah. Rather than just like we should do this because it's sustainable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but then what does that mean as well? Because people are like, oh, it's sustainable.
SPEAKER_00It's like, well, like we can sustain mountaintop removal. Yeah, exactly. Maybe maybe don't do that, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we have a lot of support and like, you know, we and and and not just from government, you know, like and I sort of lightly referenced it earlier, but like, you know, the stakeholders that we're getting, you know, and now that we've got sort of some brand partnerships with some really awesome not-for-profits that are, you know, experts in sort of like dealing with government policy and lobbying government policy, like Surfers for Climate have come on board as a brand partner, and um they are all about climate action initiatives and they are regularly um assisting with government and assisting with communities and helping like you know, de-blur the lines of you know, making this narrative uh between the two groups and between the environment and action and and government and making making positive change. So, you know, having having a a group like them who do such incredible work already, you know, partner with us and say, you know, um help tell the narrative, help tell the story because it's really, really important. And that's gonna give us the outreach and the capacity to, you know, let consumers know that that people are out there doing this sort of stuff and that when the products do come, they know where to go, you know. Like, you know, it's really, really important.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Have you had any support from unexpected places?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, collabs, you and Andrew, I swear to God.
SPEAKER_00Uh that what we did not prop, we did not put that question in there for that specifically.
SPEAKER_02No, uh honestly, it was funny. Like, you know, I think I've sort of yeah, we've laughed about it before, but you know, when I I turned my house into like this breaking bad lab and you know breaking good, yeah, breaking good, like, you know, definitely breaking good. And you know, got to the point where, you know, we had all this like seaweed and you know, this like custom, let's call it bespoke lab in Fitzroy North, you know. And uh I remember like coming into this very room actually like you know two and a half years ago and saying to Angie, he's like, What's the he's like, so where are you at? And I was like, Oh, I think I've hit industrial pilot scale from my living room. And he's like, let's change that, you know, and um, which was cool. And and and really it was like, you know, it was kind of like, you know, it's like every every few months, like we hit a hurdle and then we meet people, and then you know, like they help us knock these hurdles down. And you know, um that, you know, it's been it's been so incredible. But, you know, uh engaging with uh you know the abalone industry, you know, tremendously helpful, providing information, providing context, you know, like and actually helping people understand and helping us understand like how devastating the problem really is. Um, you know, but and you talk to these guys, like they, they, they want a solution, you know, like they are desperately worried that you know these fisheries aren't going to be there in in 10 or 15 years' time, that their kids that live out in regional areas are not gonna be able to go and explore the reefs and go fishing and have those moments on water or those days out with family and friends. And, you know, because that's most of the people that you know work in this sort of space, particularly on water, like you know, we're out there because we love it. It's it's like a you know, it's a grounding experience. It's a it's a privilege, you know. And And um, you know, they're they're they're genuinely concerned about like what is what is the outlook because right now it feels bleak. And when you have industries that are reliant on a healthy ecosystem, you know, and we're not just, you know, not just industries, but settlements and schools and you know, whole communities, like it's yeah, it's it's it was very humbling to to know that you know, people who also work in a a wild harvest space, you know, like they actively want you to contribute to a solution, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Speaking of like like wild harvested as well, like um like I can imagine one thing with this would be like literally through in the wild. So like traceability and quality, especially if you're gonna be looking at making obviously maybe less so much for fertilizers, but definitely for something like cosmetics. How are you thinking of being able to sort of like work with something like that from like I guess a more practical perspective?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean, like it's great for us because uh everything is hand-picked, individually picked. You know, we have um, you know, so many skilled divers out there that can help us, uh, that, you know, so we know that we're getting we can get premium products or we can we can wild harvest all invasive products so we don't, you know, um discriminate against like you know uh organic matter, like supermarkets, like we'll take it all and then like onshore processing, we can go, oh sweet, you know, this is food-based, this is agricultural based, this is you know cosmetic based.
SPEAKER_00Right. So you'll split it up based off like where you think it's like like kind of like uh A this is A-grade apples, yeah, this is just apple juice.
SPEAKER_02But there's no like there's no wastage, right? And you know, like we'll we you know, we have we have the plans and you know, we have the ideas to set those things up, but for us it's not, you know, we're not an industry that would there shouldn't, there won't there shouldn't be any wastage if we continue to develop new ideas and develop new products. And that again is is about being vertically integrated across multiple industries and not being scared of in investing time and and and capital into those ideas as well, because you know, this is the thing with natural products, like you know, they're organic, right? So it's not like if there is wastage that they're gonna do harm somewhere, you know, we can find a useful application.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, easy enough to compost it. And then I guess the other thing I'm curious about, like, because like we're saying invasive species, invasive species. Ah, all right, where were we? What was the train of thought? We're back, we are back. Um so we've just gone through pest derived um and so like wild harvested pest species, traceability, yep, and then um talking about you know how do we frame pest derived so that it's uh like a positive I don't think it's attractive, yeah. I guess yes, it's pest derived. You don't necessarily need to frame it as frame it as like I don't know. Does that even have a negative connotation? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. It I guess it depends on you as a person. Like what are your what do you where do your morals and values lie? You know, I guess like you know, sustainable uh practices are more important to you know some people than others.
SPEAKER_00Um it's just funny how a label can change the way people might perceive something.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't sound like attractive to premium. Yeah, a pest. You want some pests on your face, you know. It's not like it's not yeah, we're working on it, you know. So we've got like we're we have a whole creative team working on this very issue.
SPEAKER_00Well, the brand now, I mean the thing is because the brand narrative is so strong, it's like this this is an invasive species, and it can also create premium products.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's like it is that simple, but it's more just like I don't know, it's a funny thing to think about.
SPEAKER_02How is it palatable to a uh marketing and creative uh outlook, you know? And um, you know, like Roper as a business, you know, is is the parent marine restoration enterprise, you know, like that's what Roper does. Um, and our brand is like under development at the moment.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, we'll I imagine, yeah, your skincare is probably gonna have a different Yeah, no, yeah, it won't be called Roper.
SPEAKER_02Um, I thought it was fine, but then like feedback from my female cohort was like, nope. Uh absolutely not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that's that's fine. Like Roper is the the entity that can spin out all of these products, and you have a collection of things that you offer and they can each have their own identity. I think um that looking at what you're doing is building a platform where you're using kelp or other marine feed stocks as a as a thing which you can then create products from. And for you, it's like building building that platform to play with where these could potentially go. Yeah. And taking, I guess, that logistics lens, which is kind of a systems lens of like, okay, cool, like we can look at integrating that here, it could go over here. Like that kind of to me feels like you're kind of you're gonna be dealing with systemic complexity rather than linear models anyway. Like, oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02That's just like Yeah, I think like we knew that, you know, going into this as well. Like, you know, we knew that that that there's not only there was never only gonna be one application. But the idea was to how do we how do we get it off the ground so that we can become self self-sufficient fairly quickly? And the quickest and easiest way for us that we thought was to and also to get the uh you know like the impact out there with people so they can understand and feel it and that they know that this is sort of happening was to go D2C because you know, D2C in terms of consumer brand, um, you know, tells a story across multiple uh industries and platforms. It's not just like the industry world that's gonna that knows that we do sort of this restorative practice, right?
SPEAKER_00Um and that like the the the C side of D2C, they tend to be the ones who are probably willing and ready to use a product that is doing things that are a little bit better. Whereas it can be pretty brutal when you go to industry and they're like, I don't care, do what makes me money, or give me the cheapest one. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, like that patterning does come out in the consumer when you're under stress and might not have enough money. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's one of the biggest challenges that we face, you know, and it's like it's market creation versus you know consumer. So like, you know, it's is it do you just produce what people want right here and now, or like, you know, if you have like what we see as a really important and vital idea to, you know, environment and economy, um, you know, we think that we have to create a market. And we know that there's a market within consumer goods and skincare, but then we know that um, you know, uh first lives on agriculture, we still need to, we sort of need to generate that excitement. And we know that that it is there, but it's not, excuse me, it's not so tangible right now. We just see that there is interest. We know that there's applications and and incentives for water-soluble chit sand in North America and Europe. You know, historically, Australia always seems to follow last, but you know, when other countries are starting to use it and then farmers need it, and there's a there's a massive importance on protecting the soil, its integrity, its structure, then then really, and then like the crops as well, you know.
SPEAKER_00Um, you just think seesaw, so many of these big brands that use seaweed to create fertilizers. Yeah. Um, like there's definitely, to your point, there's definitely a use case and demand, but maybe it's just figuring out a way to to win over the hearts and minds of some of these folks in industry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the industry giants. And I think you'll find that like uh industry is making that transitional shift now.
SPEAKER_00Um they almost don't have a choice.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And so like the rate of change is increased is you know becoming increasingly faster than ever before, which is great when you are in the position that we are. Um, you know, we are biomass and production ready, you know. Um, and that's again moving into what why we're here into the next steps is to you know engage with these people to hopefully you know not just invest, but also like actually want the product.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it makes sense to me. Um look given there's a few ways I'd like to go here. Um I I think the first one will be like we've just talked about systemic solutions and multiple verticals, all of this sort of stuff makes sense to maybe myself and yourself. I imagine you'd be getting a lot of feedback from more linear folks, or if you did have chats with VC and stuff, they might be like, what's your one product or you, what's your single go-to-market for this single thing? Like, have you had to deal with many people kind of coming up against that and being like, just just stick in one lane?
SPEAKER_02Or no, we've uh yeah, for us it's it's been pretty exciting. You know, the agricultural funds that we are sort of in in conversations with at the moment, they want to see a diversified pop portfolio of products from Kelp and uh Urchin. Um, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's cool.
SPEAKER_00So it does feel like things are shifting a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, especially with this one group, you know, they are really supportive, uh collaborative in nature, but understand that, you know, this is uh this is an RD project, there is risk, you know. So um, and like they see the the future of sort of agricultural antibacterial uh and anti sort of like natural uh products used for soil as as a premium and is something that is super, super important. So um yeah, it is cool to see that there is a bit of a a shift. I think there is recognition that again, like they also understand that market creation is you know a massive hurdle, but like we can do that, you know, and so in manufacturing demand since PR came around.
SPEAKER_00So 100% shouldn't be an issue.
SPEAKER_02But this is the cultural shift, right? You know, so like as culture continues to demand this, like you know, policy and industry are gonna have to get on board. So, you know.
SPEAKER_00No, it makes sense. So, how do you like there's there's so much going on here, so much uncertainty, so much volatility, like how like how do you personally manage like all of this?
SPEAKER_02Oh, just chuck a wetsuit on and go diving. No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00That is a that is a like a valid answer though, just like time and nature.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, and uh like it's you know grounding for me, and it's sort of a way to you know you can think about how to solve these problems whilst being out there collecting seaweed and whatnot. So um, yeah, I think actually um the biggest problems and how we how we plan to do with them is deal with them is one is to get our first product out there and start generating excitement and generating you know validation and brand validation and company validation. And and now that we've got um, you know, interest about like how not only the products that we uh harvest, but then also sorry, the the biomass that we actually harvest, but then also, you know, what are we doing in terms of like environmental monitoring? Well, we actually have to do surveys to you know look at where where these species are propping up, specifically with seaweed. Uchins are everywhere, like quite literally everywhere. So, you know, there's not much of an issue.
SPEAKER_00How are they interacting with like is climate change exacerbating the sea urchins and the starfish?
SPEAKER_02It's the driving factor.
SPEAKER_00So that and that and that warming water that we spoke about earlier is what's really facilitating the shift?
SPEAKER_02100%. And then you know, we look at like how far these spores can travel uh in in these currents, you know, before they settle, and you know, and then you've also got because the currents now traveling further than ever before. So by the time these these spores settle, then all of a sudden you've got new populations in new in new places. We have seen that you know uh management uh uh management efforts do work in some capacity, but it's not a it's not a once, it's not a one-time activity, it's a it's a reoccurring activity, like it needs to be yearly, you know, and it's only gonna get worse as water continues to warm and water continues to move further south and further west. So, you know, um yeah, it's does it it just means that we need to continue to continue to manage our our efforts and not slow down.
SPEAKER_00Can you imagine or can you think of any other spaces or places where this like remove and regenerate kind of concept could play out? Like, is there any other invasive all right? Take three. Take three, my gosh, we're not going back to the start though, that's for sure. Um I can't even remember where that one cut out. We're talking about systemic complexity versus linear growth models. But I mean kick it off wherever you want to wherever you want to go.
SPEAKER_02What's next? Um Yeah, I mean like as an industry, like what what is actually next and what does it look like for for a future?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I mean that's perfect. You took the words out of my mouth. So like what does success look like in 10 years? Like ecologically and economically. So not just the making of the money, you know, ecologically picture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. So it starts with like uh oh, yeah, okay. So this is like cultural and government engagement and and and setting up an industry to succeed. So really um facilitation from government and industry stakeholders, I think is going to be critical. And what that means is is continued efforts beyond what is already happening. So, like, you know, it's it's enough and people are starting to listen, governments are starting to listen, the funding is starting to be available. Um, you know, but now that people are becoming more aware of these issues, I guess we can start to build a platform where we can actually have that impact. So, you know, increased uh quotas of you know marine pests and invasive species harvested uh will be the bottom line. You know, that actually is the first thing of the tangible impact of um, you know, removing ecological harm. And then we increase our capacity. So we can actually see like the reintroduction reintroduction or reoccurrence of our native species in areas that they weren't previously present, which is actually a key indicator of ecological health, right? So like biodiversity and species loss is so important to understand um ecological, because they're a key indicator of the health of our oceans.
SPEAKER_00So, what would be um like a keystone species that if you saw that coming back into a marine ecosystem, you'd be like, great, you know, like we're doing well, like almost like a key performance indicator, like a keystone species of the case.
SPEAKER_02Well it's gonna be ju it's gonna be juvenile and macro species of kelp, you know, like yeah, because that's that is the fundamental foundations of where these other species live, right? So yeah, a hundred although like you know, seaweeds aren't plants, you know. So, you know, macro algae. Yeah, alga, you know. Um so um, yeah, I think it's really it starts with that and and then what and what comes from that. So, you know, um monitoring uh the abundance and biomass in terms of like you know, juvenile species of of seaweeds and kelps, and then also seeing the reintroduction of our native species that weren't there previously, you know, um hatcheries and nurseries that are so vital for you know the foundations of these ecosystems. And then ultimately what we'll see is that once we start to see these uh reformed kelp forests, um you know, you'll start to see increase in biomass, the reintroduction of apex predators, and really that's you know complex food webs and habitat structures that didn't previously exist will start to reappear and you you now have the foundations for uh you know what could be a appropriately managed fishery um that's sustainable.
SPEAKER_00Like a polyculture aquaculture.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, kind of, you know. I mean, really, like in terms of like ecologically in the wild, I'd love to see, you know, those foundation and baseline species uh and have that that that that critical um habitat there. But you know, in terms of like, you know, what does it look like in terms of a wider industry, you know, I'd probably like to see like more investment within um things like integrated multi-trophic farming, you know, like and like what is that, right? You know, so like, you know, so like seeing like, you know, maybe having aquaculture uh play more of a role in sort of like food systems and food security and maybe redefining or rebranding themselves because they've had a bit of hot trouble in the last few years, and and having more than one species, i.e. finfish and seaweeds and and you know, molluscs and stuff, bivalves all grown in one circular uh environment, you know, because then you've got sort of like the species of one, like the another one is feeding off and cleaning, etc. And sort of you've also got carbon sequestion and and production of oxygen and you know, I think there's it's so broad, you know, and we need lots of industry and we need lots of effort and we need people to you know to actually just start doing things. But then from an economic perspective, you know, we'd like to see jobs, we'd like to see security, we'd like to see thriving regional areas, regional settlements that that uh will have a knock-on effect from healthier ecosystems and healthy oceans. You know, and that doesn't just mean from a a harvesting standpoint or a fishing standpoint, that means from tourism from you know to like uh you know, people visiting regional areas in South Coast New South Wales and regional Victoria, um you know, thriving communities, and it all comes from protecting our reefs at this stage.
SPEAKER_01All right. So you've just been given all the money you could ever want or need.
SPEAKER_02What are we gonna do?
SPEAKER_00What are you gonna do with it?
SPEAKER_02What are we gonna do with it?
SPEAKER_00So you have unlimited funds and resources to be able to make the change happen in the world you want to see.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful. Let's go. Um casinos. Yeah. Yeah, all on black, you know? Um, yeah, it would be again, like for me, really, it's gonna be a collaborative consultation. You know, we need to work closer, you know, with industry and governments. And then we also need to, you know, invest in you know, the next generation of fishers and divers and uh you know within the community in these areas. So we need to be able to set up you know pathways in terms of jobs and traineeships that are actually impactful and will support you know these these communities moving forward. If we had the option, we would buy any number of vessels to do wild harvesting and environmental monitoring all at the same time. You know, but as we've sort of talked about, you know, these things are so expensive, you know, it's not like the cost of you put the word marine in anything, like things corrode, they break science or wedding photographer.
SPEAKER_00It's always so much more expensive.
SPEAKER_02But you know, you just as soon as that goes in, like it's just like oh, just add, you know, add 100%, you know, it's it's a joke. So um continued support, you know, in terms of like of the monitoring aspect, but you know, we we work closely with you know groups like the VFA who are extremely helpful and have like this incredibly difficult job, you know, it's not easy, and you know, you're dealing with so many stakeholders across multiple fisheries and you know, multiple management areas and like it's a hard job, you know.
SPEAKER_00And so like all got competing interests. So 100%. It's not easy trying to kind of optimize for that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think realistically it it it having a lot of money and having the capital to to go out to to do tangible impact marine restorative work, amazing. But then developing our onshore processing and capability, you know, and that doesn't just mean from a from you know a raw material processing aspect, that also looks like investment into our RD capacity as well, because you know, there's so much biomass and there's so much options, you know, like and then eventually when you know, as an enterprise, when we grow and we're able to, you know, figure out what is the most impact in terms of unit economics that we can achieve. Like, does that mean that, you know, not just in a in a revenue and profit sense, but like, you know, what is the what what what is the most that you can get out of a product most effectively that's cost effective so that we can, you know, have impact on both sides of the of the coin, terrestrially and ocean-based.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Yeah. I think working in the infrastructure space, I really I I hear you there. It's just so, so expensive making anything happen, let alone I I can't imagine what it would like actually. I don't know if you've run the numbers on what it would cost to be able to set up off like onshore processing facilities.
SPEAKER_02We're getting there. But I can imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, these are multi-billion dollar industries that we'd have to look at setting up and finding the patient capital that can understand that and sees that this is something that needs to happen long term, like the the the um return on investment might not be the you know quarterly return that people are after. These doing regenerative work has like multi-generational timelines, you know, it's not yeah.
SPEAKER_02And actually, I think there's a way to like change that narrative slightly by you know like changing the way that you do business or look at how you do business. And for us it made sense to, you know, for regenerative ocean products um to enter, you know, a crowdsource funding application because again, like you know, we don't just we're not looking for VCs to come in and be like, oh, you know, we want X return on this within X amount of months. It was like, hey, well, you know, we want investors and consumers to really co-align with the things that we're doing, you know, on a personal level, you know, and to me, like this is it's not business, like it's extremely personal, you know.
SPEAKER_00Business unusual.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, you know, and like it's ecstasy and agony every single week, you know. But like it was a way of us, you know, um being able to have conversations with people who, you know, like high net worth individuals or green investors and and who actually care where, you know, like green super funds and all that sort of thing, where they actually want to, they want to see regenerative and restorative. Action practices in place. And so, yeah, it's it's it's quite neat in the sense that we feel like, you know, from our origins of like two and a half years ago from washing seaweed and cement mixes at three o'clock in the morning to right through to now, and we're like actually chatting to you know, starting to talk to investors and starting to talk to people and industry groups that are like, my God, like how have you come from so far? Like, you know, and it's and we have, and it's just been perseverance.
SPEAKER_00Page of honor, man. People respect it.
SPEAKER_02We're trying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, keep it going as long as you can. I think it's really important, like, not to knock VCs, like I think they perform a specific function. Absolutely, especially for things like med tech where you you know might need lots of money to get cracking. But yeah, I think the reality is a lot of the time it's not actually the best fit money-wise for a company, and you might have to shift what you want to do to you know thousand X your company instead of what might only need to be a 5x or a 10x or a 100x or totally might not, yeah. So I I hear you there, and it's really exciting to hear that you're exploring these different avenues of funding. We know the Birchal crew pretty well, so yeah, they're pretty awesome. Um but yeah, um I reckon we're pretty much done. I'd love to know um like how can people keep track of you and if they want to invest or support um like Birchal? Is is that gonna be the Birchal sort of space? Totally. Website, yeah, LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_02Birchal website, LinkedIn, um, you know, the EOIs go live on the 24th of March. Um there'll be another webinar, this podcast. Um, you can contact us directly, you know, engage with us on our website. You know, we're always keen to talk and collaborate with people who want to be a part of the journey. Um, and just to the point where we're it's getting to such an exciting moment, you know, it's you know, we've taken we've made a product that's real and it's and it's there and it's do it, it's doing something. And you know, now that we can actually bring people into that, into that space, um, you know, we can take it to the next step of of actual you know consumer products and and further RD.
SPEAKER_00Love it. Well, aside from getting you to take me out on the boat soon, which I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna hand you into the book. Let's go.
SPEAKER_02Let's go.
SPEAKER_00Um, is there anything we haven't explored that that feels important to mention?
SPEAKER_02No, I'm I think we've crushed it. I'm pretty stoked. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on and look forward to another update and sitting down with you sometime soon.
SPEAKER_02Let's do it. Cool, very good. Thanks, man. No, that was super fun.
SPEAKER_00My god, you made it to the end. Thank you for for listening. Um, yeah, it always blows my mind that we actually have people who listen to these things. And yeah, thanks so much to everyone who does let us know that they find them interesting or engaging. Um, it really means a lot. Makes me feel like I'm not wasting my life energy uh creating this sort of stuff. But it to me, it seems like you know, these sort of stories are really important to share. And traditionally or historically, they haven't really got much of a platform. So yeah, I hope you enjoy it. If there's any other thinkers or anything else you'd like us to branch out into, let us know. Um, you know, whether that's social innovation, systems change, or anything like that. You know, we're we're very open and curious about exploring all of the potential pathways towards a more flourishing future that exists at the edge of emergence. So yeah, until next time.
