Practicing Law is the Number One Most Stressful Profession | Barbara Mardigian & Hetal Challa (Wellness Specialists)

Has your firm discussed the importance of wellness initiatives and mental health?

It's a subject that is slowly becoming less taboo, but there is a lot of work that remains to be done. Especially in the legal profession. We still operate in an environment where it's common to have a bar in your office, to keep mental health challenges under wraps, to work as much as humanly possible, and to simply expect that you'll have burnout and stress. 

"It comes with the job."

But it doesn't have to.

Practicing law has been recognized as the most stressful profession there is, even more than high stakes surgeons. Why? Because there is so much emphasis on confrontation over collaboration. We can accept that this is the nature of it, but therefore all the more reason to get the support required to emerge mentally healthy and balanced.

Barbara Mardigian of the Virginia Justices & Lawyers Assistance Program (JLAP), and Hetal Challa, Wellness Coordinator of the Supreme Court of Virginia, join us today to talk about mental health and wellness initiatives for the law profession in the state, which have led the way as an example across the country. We explore the pervasive stigma surrounding mental health in law, the need for wellness initiatives in law schools, practical strategies for managing time and stress effectively, as well as the value of vulnerability and authenticity in legal practice.

And a key component to this program is the fact that support is available to anyone in the legal field, not just attorneys and justices. This encourages firms and workplaces to be more open about wellness and mental health support.

So if you haven't already, have those conversations today amongst your team, and be an example for others.

"When you have judges that are healthy, attorneys that are healthy,  it affects the community, which impacts everybody." - Hetal Challa

In this episode, we discuss:

◼️ How vulnerability can strengthen connections with clients and colleagues.
◼️ Why legal professionals often compartmentalize their emotions.
◼️ How wellness initiatives are crucial for mental health in law.
◼️ Why alcohol is a normalized part of legal culture.
◼️ That connection is key to overcoming isolation in the legal profession.
◼️ Why legal professionals should advocate for wellness in their workplaces.

Chapters

00:00 The Impact of Social Connections on Wellness
05:10 Real Stories of Transformation through JLAP
06:55 Understanding the Mental Health Crisis in Law
12:32 Breaking the Stigma of Seeking Help
18:54 Long-Term Benefits of Prioritizing Wellness
25:30 Leadership in Promoting Wellness
28:16 The Wellness Initiative in the Legal Profession
40:09 The Role of Alcohol in Legal Culture
45:17 Cultural Shifts in Legal Wellness
52:19 Resources and Programs for Legal Professionals

Courtroom Stories & Tactics | RVA Trial Lawyers
Available on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and at RVATrialLawyers.com 

Based out of Richmond, Virginia, Courtroom Stories & Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers exists for lawyers who try cases to juries on behalf of people. Through our podcast, we hope to learn from them, support them, connect them, inspire them, and preserve their work for future trial lawyers.

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Thank you!

Sharif Gray and Nael Abouzaki

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

The social aspect is one that we really talk a lot about because your toxicity level depends on who you spend your time with. Like, are those people really supporting you in a wellness way or are they supporting you in a negative way? And so social is about having friends that aren't in the law. Because if two lawyers get together or three lawyers get together and you're standing in line at Starbucks, you start talking about work.

SPEAKER_06 0:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

You know, therapists do the same thing. Every occupation has that. They do the same thing. So what happens is your brain never has a rest.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

This is Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RBA Trial Lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Niall Abuzaki.

SPEAKER_07 0:38

All right, before we get into the episode, I want to take a minute and introduce you guys to a friend and colleague, Sally Tierney. Sally works as a professional investigator based in Northern Virginia, but handles cases all over. I've had the privilege of working a case with her not too long ago. Sally, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you guys do?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Thank you, Sharif. So Clear Path Forward is the firm, and we do investigations for attorneys for criminal, personal injury, civil, by doing an extremely thorough investigation on every single case. And we add value for the attorney. Thanks, Sally. And for people who want to reach you, how can they get a hold of you? They can call us at Clear Path Forward 703-350-2073. That's 703-350-2073.

SPEAKER_07 1:33

All right, we're back. And today we've got Barbara Martigan and Hethel Chala. And I think I pronounced your names right. At least I tried. Okay. Well I did have a little cheat sheet right here.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

That's okay. We all need them.

SPEAKER_07 1:43

Well, let me tell our listeners how I first came across you guys. So a handful of you, I think it was maybe like four-ish years ago, I attended a conference, a Virginia Bar conference at the Virginia War Memorial, and it was for the military law section. And I remember very clearly you, Barbara, talking during that time. And I remember one thing very specifically, and it's always kind of stuck out to me. It may have been kind of a Q ⁇ A session or who knows what it was. But I remember the topic of like never turning it off came up. And at one point you said, like, oh, I bet you, and I don't think this was directed towards me. It might have just been kind of more of a hypothetical, but I bet you guys, when you get home, you do dinner, you say goodnight to the kids, and you start working again. And you never actually turn it off. And that stuck with me, and it's a constant struggle for me, because to this day, I still do it. But I I believe the message that you and your colleagues are sharing and are trying to put out there is important. And important is probably an understatement, which I'm sure we'll get into. So before we dive a little deeper, if you wouldn't mind, why don't you guys take a second, introduce yourselves?

SPEAKER_05 2:59

Well, as a preliminary matter, I just want to say thank you so much for having Barbara and I on this podcast. I think it's a great opportunity to kind of share what we do in our organizations. A little bit about me, Hethel Chala. I'm the wellness coordinator at the Supreme Court of Virginia, the office of the executive secretary. Prior to working with the court, my background's actually in psychology. I worked with adolescents and children for five years before going to law school.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

That's why we get along too.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

And that's why we get along, I think. Uh you know it's funny. I'm like an adolescent.

SPEAKER_07 3:30

When people ask me what my wife does, I'm like, well, she was a kindergarten teacher. I'm like, see, it makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Exactly, exactly. And working with kids and adolescents can be stressful. And naturally the transition to wellness began. Yeah. Uh my work with uh Barbara and her wonderful group.

SPEAKER_07 3:46

So And you're with the Virginia Supreme Court, correct? Yes. And I know uh spoiler alert, but Virginia, I understand, is one of the only Supreme Courts in the country that has this type of program. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_05 3:58

It was the first one, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 4:00

So set in the trend. All right.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

Yes, definitely. We've kind of sort of set the guideline and the model, but definitely a lot of other states have started to model their programs after ours.

SPEAKER_07 4:12

Sounds good. Barbara, please.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Well, again, thank you so much for having us here. It's it's wonderful to be here and to talk about JLAP. I am a licensed professional counselor, not an attorney at all. And I've been in this field for, I don't know, since 1998 when I went back to graduate I went back to graduate school when I was in my early 30s and started practicing and going down this road. It's a second career for me. So I uh have been at JLAP since 2019. I started there as their deputy clinical director and then became a clinical director in 2022. JLAP is one of the few lawyer assistance programs in the country that is fortunate enough to have two clinicians there. And we can provide assessments and referrals, and there's no charge for anything that JLAP does. Anything we do working with legal profession and their families.

SPEAKER_07 4:59

That's awesome. I want to uh take you back to a story that you shared with me before we got on the podcast. You shared uh a story about an individual that JLAP was able to help. Can you share that with us?

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Sure. So we work all over the state, and my coworker, who's our assistant director, Charlene, she was doing a uh a CLE with another coworker of ours, and there was an attorney that had been there, and he'd been going to this conference for a long time. He specifically said, I never stay to the end of these things. I always leave early. And he said I ended up staying, and they talked about ethics and wellness, and he said I called. And we have an 877 number, it's a toll-free number, 247-365. People can call at any time of day. We rotate call. And I just happened to be on call and he reached out over the weekend and he said I was ready to eat my gun. He said, I realized I needed some help. I've known for 10 years I've needed help. And so we started working together where I just provided some support and gradually worked with him to get him to agree to see a psychiatrist because I felt like there was some depression and some anxiety that was there as well as grief. He now is doing really well. I still chat with this person and you know, he's seeing a therapist and he's seeing a psychiatrist, and it's changed his practice, you know, and he no longer feels like he wants to do that. And um, he went from feeling a lot of shame reaching out and asking for help, to now he is like, I will talk to anybody about how JLab helped me. I'll talk to anybody about the services that you have. And so it's been wonderful to watch that progression for him where he became healthy.

SPEAKER_07 6:39

How bad is it? And when I say how bad is it, I mean just the state of mental health and addiction when it comes to the legal profession.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well, the ABA did a study back in 2016, and that kind of was the jumping off point for JLAP to get funded and where they could hire more people. And I was the first hire as the deputy clinical director. That was the first physician that they hired. And we've grown and changed because the need has been so overwhelming for people that are stressed, dealing with burnout, compassion fatigue, vicarious trauma, substance use, and mental health issues. A lot of people in the legal profession, you know, have bars in their office, which still trips me out to this day. And no judgment. Like we're not the alcohol police at all. But I think there's a beginning, and that's how problems can start is I'll I'll, you know, drink or I'll do A, B, or C and I start to feel better. And then things can kind of go rapidly downhill.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Just expand a little bit on what Barbara said. A lot of people, if you ask them, what is the most stressful profession out there? Their automatic response would be, oh, being a doctor, operating on people. But it can be really surprising to know that practicing law is the number one most stressful profession. So why is that? I think there's several reasons why that is. I think the inherent practice of the law is very adversarial. So, to my example about doctors, often when a doctor is operating on someone, you have support there with you. You've got a nurse, you've got other physicians, everyone is teaming together to save that patient's life. Whereas in the practice of law, it's so adversarial that everyone in that room, they are representing their own client. It's not necessarily a collaborative experience. And I think for that reason, I think everyone involved in a case or everyone involved in the legal profession have some amount of occupational risk that just lingers. It's not something that at the end of the day is easy to just shut off because the nature of what you do doesn't allow you to do that if you don't kind of take very intentional steps.

SPEAKER_07 8:51

Yeah, it's I remember when I was in the army, I did a lot of criminal defense work and uh clients would come to my office and I remember asking, How are you doing? Just as a pleasantry, right? And then I realized how stupid that was. Because it's like nobody is doing great when they have to come meet a lawyer, let alone a criminal defense lawyer. So to your point, I mean, we're dealing with problems. We don't deal with happy stuff.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Right. People are at the worst days they probably ever had.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

And nobody shows up at our office on a on a stellar day either. Right. You know, usually there's something that is really troubling them. And to that point, because of the adversarial nature, there's also this feeling of perfectionism. There's also this feeling of, I have to be the best. And then you look at imposter syndrome, where people wear their mask of, okay, I'm gonna have my lawyer mask on today, or Barbara's gonna have her therapist mask on today. And I might be really struggling. But when I was in graduate school, we were taught you need to go and have supervision and talk to people about how you're feeling and maybe get a therapist and do all of that. And all the law students I've talked to, and all the lawyers I've worked with since 2019, and even before, that's not something they discuss in law school, right? It's it's very much the Socratic method and it's just set up in a way that is not designed to really focus on wellness. And you've got people here and there that have made strides and made changes, but they're typically much farther along in their practice. They're not really new lawyers that are focused on their wellness, although the new lawyers that are coming out of law school, it's more acceptable to have a therapist and to have a psychiatrist and to be very open with your wellness and your mental health. They're much more open than my generation was.

SPEAKER_07 10:29

Is the stigma still there though?

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yes. Especially in smaller towns, there is a lot of stigma because in more rural areas in Virginia, lawyers in small towns are often revered and they're looked at as, you know, like a judge is revered. They're just put on a pedestal. And so there's that pressure too of everybody knows my business and I have to really keep it tight and I can't appear weak. And that happens to a lot of lawyers, but I think in a small town, it's even worse. The stigma is even worse there because of just cultural norms, where here in Richmond, it's very different. But I think our cultural norms of where the way that we were raised and how we were brought up, that sets the tone for how willing we are to ask for help.

SPEAKER_07 11:16

So, me personally, I remember like thinking, oh, if you have to have a therapist, I mean, something must be really wrong.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 11:22

Right. And I I've completely flip-flopped on that. And I'm I'm glad. One thing that I share with people often when we're talking about this subject is I say, you know what, like businesses, we spend hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars on consultants and coaches, and we send our kids to all these different coaches. Right, the tutors, the soccer coach, the wrestling coach. Actually, we were at a wrestling thing last night with my kids. And yet we just expect that we're just going to figure out life on our own. Right? Like, isn't that crazy when you put that context? It's like, and then getting a coach, a therapist is a bad thing.

unknown 11:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Well, it's insane. It goes back to, I think, the stigma of that, of being a professional. And I used to work at a treatment center where we worked with addictive professionals, and there were military, like colonels in the military that were in there, there were team six guys, there were all of these people that were very high-functioning military, and they all realized that they had a problem. The professionals did. And part of it, the issue is that the prof and the professionals, especially with lawyers, doctors, whoever, you're used to telling people what to do. You're not used to asking for help, right? You're used to telling people what to do. When you come to treatment, you now have people telling you what to do. And there's this huge, like, don't you know who I am? And the lawyer identity, I think, is so pervasive that I've heard people say, I'm gonna die at my desk working, you know.

SPEAKER_07 12:46

And I Well, why don't federal judges retire and stay senior status? So hopefully they don't have any federal judges listening, but they don't get paid any extra, but they still stay working.

SPEAKER_05 12:56

Right. And I think that's one of the main reasons why I think Barbara's office and my office, we spend a lot of time in law schools. You know, there's eight law schools in Virginia understanding that some of those feelings and some of those beliefs in work ethic, perfectionism, the adversarial nature of the law all start right from day one of law school. And so if we can hit young lawyers, young future lawyers early, we're doing that in the hopes that the profession changes. And that a lot of the things that you know we're talking about, like normalization of help seeking, can be better for like the next generation.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

And we're even starting to get into they have a lot of pre-law programs that are in most universities. Yes, we've spoken about a lot of pre-lack. About the pre-law and then the paralegal programs because we work with anybody in the legal field. You do not have to be a judge or a lawyer. You can be a law student, you can be a paralegal magistrate, clerk, bailiff, anybody, even a firm administrator. You don't have to be an attorney. I worked with someone who worked at a law school and he was not an attorney, but he was employed at the law school and he reached out to us. And so I want people to really understand that we work with anyone in legal profession and their families. And the reason we work with families is because if your family member is struggling, that's impacting you. And that's impacting your ability. And I do have a quick story about that. So my mother fell several years ago and shattered her femur, and she was 80 years old. She was in really good shape and that really saved her. But I had gone on a work trip to Denver, and the day that I got back from Denver at two o'clock in the morning, I had to be at her hospital at one o'clock that afternoon to take her home. And then I had to spend the night because that's when the home care was going to come in, was like the next day. Well, the next day I had a nine o'clock presentation that I had to do downtown. And I didn't ask for help. I could have called my coworker, Charlene, who would have said, stay home. It's not a problem. I can do this. It is absolutely not a problem. But I felt like I have to be there for everybody. And so I'm getting ready in the morning. I'm at my mother's house. I'm talking to the home care person. I leave. I and I'm so sleep deprived because I I hadn't slept and I get to go to my office and our director, Tim, who is absolutely amazing, I'm telling him all this. And he looks at me and he goes, Why are you here? And I was like, What is this a trick question? What do you mean? He's like, Barbara, go home. Like you need to go home and rest. Like you really need to do that. And I said, Okay, I'll be back Monday. And this was a Thursday. And I'm fortunate that I work in a place like that because I've worked in other facilities where if you work in mental health, I don't want to say it's the worst place to work because I loved working there, but that kind of attitude is not taken. Mental health days are really frowned upon for clinicians to take a mental health day, which sounds insane.

SPEAKER_07 15:45

It does sound insane.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

It sounds insane, but yet it sounds hypocritical. He's the f it is. He's the first boss I've ever had that looked at me and said, Barbara, you need to go home. Like, go home. It wasn't in a shamey way. It was just, you know, it was just like we care about each other and we're fortunate enough to work together. And I include Hethel in this, as well as like if we're having a hard day, I'm like, I'm just off today. I am things are just not going well, you know. And there are not a lot of places where you can say that.

SPEAKER_07 16:09

But you know what's interesting is yes, uh having that mindset that we want to be there to support people, great. Take that every day, any day of the week. But even for like the business owner who wants to continue to grow, having the long-term vision that like you want to be there for your people and support them and know that by coming to you and saying, you're tired, you need to go home, we'll see in a few days. Well, damn, the loyalty that you're gonna have to Tim and to this organization, and you coming back on Monday, you're gonna be ready to go. So even if the business owner's like, I want to make more money, right? Like, well, guess what? If you do those things, you're gonna make more money. You're going to have the people who are more dedicated, you're gonna have a better culture and things it's a long-term vision.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

It is, but it also sets the tone and it's that role modeling behavior. Before I came to JLEP, I was the executive director of retreatment facility, and there were two younger, newer professionals that were there. And every day at around 2, 2:30, they would go take a walk and they would go to Starbucks. They were gone 20, 25 minutes. And I thought that was the best thing in the world. And then I noticed they stopped doing that. And I went to both of them and I said, Why aren't you guys going for a walk? They're like, We have too much work too. I said, No, get out of here, go for a walk, go get coffee, go do whatever. Don't interrupt what you're doing because you're really setting a tone for other people that are here to see that it's okay to go and do that. And it was important for me to see that, it was important for me to support that, but then it was important for me to take time for me to go and do something like that. And I would go stand in the parking lot and just take a deep breath in and just smell and hear what was around me to kind of do a reset because I worked in a very busy practice that did a lot of different things for a lot of different people, and it was very, very hectic.

SPEAKER_05 17:53

And I think that you touched on something that I think is really important to mention, and that's the concept of longevity in the profession.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

And so often when we think about wellness, resources, well-being, as though that's an aspirational thing, you know, no one's got time for this, we don't have time for that. Just grind, just keep grinding. But when you look at it as something that actually is going to not only, you know, help you adhere to ethical obligations, but it helps you sustain your practice with quality that maybe you would not have been able to do before, increases longevity in the profession, it increases public confidence in attorneys, kind of decreases some of those negative stereotypes that attorneys sometimes get. But it has so many other benefits other than just the individual. There's a systemic cultural shift that happens when we see supervisors, when we see organizations, we see bar associations, we see, you know, someone like you who's actually taking the time to emphasize well-being.

SPEAKER_07 18:52

So Well, thank you for the credit, but I've got a lot of work to do myself.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

So actually, I think about this podcast really.

SPEAKER_07 18:59

Well, yeah, I mean, well, thank you. I mean, actually, uh, so we had our annual firm business meeting here, what was it, a week or two ago? And one of the pieces of constructive feedback that I was given by my colleagues was Sharif, you gotta like preserve yourself, like protect your calendar. Like start like actually having limits. And so it's I'm a work in progress. I actually just finished, I I say read, but I don't read anymore. I listen to books, right? When I'm driving. And one of the books I just listened to is called The Art of the Impossible. And the whole concept, at least what I was trying to gain from the book was like, well, how do you set up your schedule? How do you set up your day in a way that's conducive to like actually like moving the ball forward, right? Because it's so easy to just sit there and just see email, react, see email, react, right? Someone comes into your office, react. So what I've done, and I haven't, it's aspirational to some extent now because it's not fully implemented, but I've gone into my calendar now and I block off, I think from 8 45 to 10 45 each morning. No email, no phone ring, nothing, right? It's just a task. That's the flow state, the deep block, right? Then a 15-minute block for email triage. And I didn't make any of this stuff up, I got it from the book, right? And that's just to go through emails to say what needs to be dealt with now, what need what can wait, put it in the right folder, all that. Then I've got unstructured time, and then at two o'clock, I've got a walk for 15 minutes, and then from 2.15 to 3 o'clock email processing time. So that's 45 minutes. Actually, just go through the emails, and then some more unstructured time where I'll typically do a podcast or have some meetings or something like that. And then five o'clock, we do the shutdown for 30 minutes, which is another email review, and then you decide what you're gonna do for that deep block the next morning. And so I have like again, I it's aspirational to some extent because it's still it's recently implemented and I still panelist.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

I know we do next up. We do the following children's presentation.

SPEAKER_07 21:02

I mean, because I am well thank I'm happy to do it, but I am 100% like guilty when it comes to just working like crazy and but at the same time, also I'm lucky because I do love what I do, and so it's balance and longevity is a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

I'm starting blocking my calendar too, because there's a a clinical report that I work on every month and it's a collaborative effort. And I found myself getting later and later and later when I was getting that to my boss. I really would never do it that late. And so I've started blocking off three days where if I have a couple of clients I need to see, I can put them in and I know that I my whole day is left over and it won't be disrupted. That has really helped me. And that's hard for me to do because I see an empty calendar and I've got like all these color highlighters like, do not schedule, do not schedule. And my clients call and I'm like, I could fit you in here. I could, you know, so that's a work in progress, but that's really helped to do that as well because I have that downtime. And I also started working from home every Wednesday, and that's flexible to Where if there's something going on in the office and I need to be in the office on Wednesday, like if it's an assessment or something, I'll go in Wednesday. Like it's not a big deal for me. But I do like having that flexibility where I can do that. That has really made a big difference.

SPEAKER_07 22:11

Yeah. And then the thing, and and it's not like, oh, we're slacking. It's like, no, you're actually like allowing yourself so you can do even better work, quality over quantity, right? But I want to learn about both your organizations a little bit more, especially so that our listeners know, like, okay, well, what do you all do? How can I reach out? All that stuff. Before I do that, I'd like to make a comment just about the stigma, the unwillingness to get help, and how that interplays, I think, at least with trial work. I went to a three-week program in Wyoming, I think a couple years ago, 2023. It's a big barn in Wyoming. It's called the Jerry Spence Method. A lot of trial lawyers around the country go to it. It's quite a commitment. Three weeks is a long time. The entire purpose of that program is to learn to connect and to learn who you are so you can then connect with others, be it in the courtroom, with the jury, whoever it may be. And the thought is, and it's not just the thought, I mean, it's because it works. It's because if we want to be persuasive, we can't, as you talked earlier, put on the lawyer mask. We have to be us, because at the end of the day, like credibility is such an important part of gaining the jury's trust and ultimately putting your client in a better position to win. So I have come to actually accept, and it's all will always be a work in progress, that the more open that I can be about who I am, to include my shortcomings, my flaws, my vulnerabilities, the better I'm actually able to connect with the other person, the better off I'm gonna be and my clients gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

But that's also about wellness too.

SPEAKER_07 23:53

Of course, you know, because it it flies in the face of I'm this tough lawyer guy, right? And then I've gotta be very buttoned up in the courtroom and make sure I'm doing this and this and using these fancy legal words, right? That's actually not as effective as just saying, hey, this is what's going on, this is why we need your help. Da-da-da-da. Right. This is who I am.

unknown 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

And you know, I want to say that both Barbara and I have in our respective organizations champions that lead both of our groups that are really kind of the poster children for this. In my organization, we have Justice Mann. He's the chair of the Wellness Initiative. And, you know, a lot of times when you have leadership, very rarely do you have somebody that kind of leads by example. And he is right there in our wellness program, talking about his personal experiences, showing vulnerability, which is a really difficult, you know, thing to do, but it really sends a message that it's okay to not be okay. And so I think having the highest court in your state, kind of setting that precedence for everybody else, really makes people feel comfortable that it's okay to share. And then with VJ Lab, I still remember Tim Carroll, the the executive director, who I still remember him always saying that for lawyers to trust us or legal professionals to trust us, they have to know us. And he says that so often. It's kind of ingrained in my head. It's ingrained in our heads too. It's more than just having policies, it's actually talking the talk, walking the thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Absolutely. Well, it it's not transactional, you know, and that's the thing. Like, I don't really like transactional things happening. I mean, I know they have to, but it's so important to have the leaders that we have. And Tim always says that we stand on the shoulders of so many people and Justice Mann, and then you have Justice Limits and Justice Mims, and all of these justices that were just so instrumental, and then we have so many amazing volunteers that the list is long. Like David Mercer was right there when this program got started 40 years ago, along with so many other attorneys, that we have such an amazing pool of volunteers because sometimes we'll have people call the office. And, you know, when an attorney calls and they're in distress, I hear something different than obviously what an attorney is going to hear. And I'm hearing one thing, and this happened, and he sounded very distressed. And when he found out I was a therapist, he was not happy because he wanted to talk to an attorney. And I said, Hang on a minute, let me get you to one of our volunteers. And so I called one of our volunteers up in Northern Virginia, and he is retired. He did IP for a really long time, just one of the nicest men. And I said, Hey, Dick, can I get you? And you remember Dick Flynn. And I said, Hey, I've got this guy that's really stressed about this. Can you talk to him? And he said, Absolutely. They exchanged numbers and he called me back about 45 minutes later and he said, Barbara, this is mental health. He said, Because what he's stressing about is something a first year could do. And that confirmed not only what I was hearing, but it was that much more because he was talking in legal ease. And it was like, you might as well have been speaking Portuguese to me because yeah, I know where my limitations are. But having a volunteer, or we have, you know, two attorneys on staff that can talk to them and go, I don't think this is about this specific case. It's about something else, it sounds like. And that's just incredibly important. You know, we don't do this alone. There's so many people who have helped us, who continue to help us, who continue to volunteer, and who just put their whole life into helping the legal profession, we are standing on their shoulders. You know, and it's an honor to do the work that we do. I feel like I'm lucky to come to work every day. I don't feel like I go to work really.

SPEAKER_07 27:28

Well, and by helping those in the legal profession, you're also, through them, helping the people that they represent. Right. I mean, you're not you don't have a healthy lawyer, and we're probably not going to be great when it comes to representing somebody.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Same thing with a therapist or with a teacher or with a barista or whoever, you know, it's just when you're struggling with with mental health or with stress, it bleeds everywhere. It just doesn't stay into one confined place. It's everywhere. It's with your family. It's when you go in line to Starbucks, it's driving to work and having road rage and flipping somebody off, and then you go to work that way, and then it just is this big snowball. Like I think of the cartoon snowball that rolls downhill and it picks up people and you see legs and arms sticking out of the big, big snowball. And that's what stress is about. It casts a wide net. Really does.

SPEAKER_07 28:17

Heathel, can you talk about the wellness program?

unknown 28:19

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 28:19

And actually, can you also talk about the wellness hours for the CLE requirement? Or they're, I guess they're technically not required, right? What are those?

SPEAKER_05 28:29

So, first let me start with just kind of a little bit of background about the wellness initiative, because you know, when Barbara was kind of talking a little bit about standing on shoulders, I was getting goosebumps when you were talking about that, because a lot of people don't know this. Uh, the visionaries that, you know, we had before us that came up with the structure of this program is just, you know, fantastic. But basically, the wellness initiative, and as Barbara said, you know, thanks to some of the forward thinking that Chief Justice Lemons and Justice Minnes do to all the um alarming. The alarming studies that the Hazleton study that was done a long time ago. But basically, we've got infrastructure in place through stakeholder collaboration that allows basically my office and Barbara's office to work in a very collaborative manner for education, outreach to judges, lawyers, law students, magistrates, clerk reporters, everybody in the legal profession. So every day is different, but our focus really is a combination of not just education, outreach, but prevention because we want the sustainability of these programs to be such that it not only helps individuals, but it helps systemically. So that we're not just putting a band-aid on a situation, but we're preventing it from happening right uh in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

And that's really one of the benefits of seeking help earlier, like getting that earlier, you're you're intervening on yourself, whether that is in the judiciary with doing something with your organization or my organization, you're getting kind of ahead of it instead of you're waiting until your back's against the wall and you're in stage 12 of burnout. And I had somebody call me one time and they're like, the only time I have to talk is for 30 minutes at this time, and that's the only time I can talk, like ever. And I was like, Ever? Like every day. And it was just, you know, every suggestion I made, I don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time. There's not a lot I can do with that, right? There's not a lot I can do, but I just my heart felt for this person because they really were so incredibly stressed. I could hear it in their voice, and there wasn't anything I was gonna say that was gonna make it better.

SPEAKER_07 30:40

Are there certain practice areas or types of law firms that you see these problems more at?

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Family attorneys, family and criminal there's so many practice areas that are stressful, but due to just the sensitivity of family law, dealing with you're dealing with abuse cases, you're dealing with family discord, or you're dealing with so much emotion. Criminal law, same gruesome details and just heinous crimes.

SPEAKER_07 31:10

Oh, yeah, you're dealing with someone's life.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Right. Right. I mean, but also too, you're you know, I was talking with Judge Escarati, who's the chief in Fairfax, and she was talking about how all of your senses really get inundated now. Like back in the old days, you know, you just had like a picture and you read a report. Well, now you've got social media, you've got body cam, you've got audio, you've got video, you've got pictures, you have everything that you're looking at. You get inundated. And I've talked to two attorneys that were prosecutors, and they talked about how they have to set their day up to watch body cam footage. Because it was it's so traumatic to watch it.

SPEAKER_07 31:43

And there's a lot of it.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

There is a lot of it. And that's the thing. Like I talked to this one woman, and she basically laid out her next two days of exactly what she's going to do, which I think was a brilliant plan of this is how I'm going to do this. And I think it was very smart of her to do that. But that's what she had to do to watch body cam. I mean, she just I could just hear it in their voice, you know, when they were talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 32:05

Sometimes I think we're trained in law school again to put on a face that I can compartmentalize. Right. This is not impacting me. Whereas I think when you're dealing with, you know, I believe that people go to law school because they really want to make a difference, they care. So sometimes you can be more vulnerable. And it's hard over time. You can only stuff it down for so long or eventually.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

It bleeds everywhere. I mean, it really does. There's that's where boundary violations can happen when you have a parallel experience like a train track where you're talking to someone and they're sharing something that maybe you've been through or your loved one has been through, and then all of a sudden you're connecting on a deeper emotional level than you would anybody else. And so then your boundaries get a little floppy, and that's where things can happen. And when things like that happen, the best question you can ask yourself is would I disclose this or would I do this for all of my clients? And nine times out of 10, the answer is always no. So that's how you know, and that's happened in my profession as well. Like they're just some people that you really connect with and you can really relate to them. And, you know, that's why supervision is important. That's why it's important to go to this person and go, I don't know if I should take this case because of A, B, and C. And can you help me with this? And there's nothing wrong with that because that that keeps you from having an ethical violation and a boundary that you could hurt somebody, not intending to hurt somebody, but you always have to look at what's your motive. What is my motive for disclosing this? And we were taught that, you know, in school, and I just did ethics for my CEUs today. I just did it this morning. The doctor that was on there talking was about, you know, always he kept saying, what is your motive for disclosing this to a client? What is your motive for doing this? Is it for you or is it for their benefit? You know, and if you can really stick to that, you'll find that you'll have less wiggle room with the boundaries. But it usually catches people off guard when something like that happens. And if they're not in a healthy place mentally, whether they've been struggling for a long time, and then they start enjoying that client and they start seeing them and they start, let's go out for coffee and we can discuss your case over dinner and we can do all this kind of stuff. And that's where things get really messy a lot of times because you might know what your intentions are, but that other person might not, especially if they've been impacted by trauma. They could look at what you're doing as a completely different motive. And that's where things can get really. Yeah, it's a slippery slope for some. It is very, it's very messy. And I've had some clients who've asked me to be their sponsor, and I'm like, oh, absolutely not. And then I have to explain to them why that's not going to happen. That's a dual relationship. And I mean, I am sober and I've been sober for a little bit, but that's not an appropriate role for me to have with you. If you go to some meetings, you can find a sponsor, but why don't we talk about what you want in a sponsor? And then I kind of shift the conversation over that way. Because if I start to sponsor people, number one, that's about my ego. Number two, it's insanely unethical to do something like that. And it's a dual relationship. And it will never come out good because my role is to maintain my ethics. It's my job to make sure that we do that when I'm working with a client. It's not their job.

SPEAKER_07 35:08

It's my absolutely. Can you talk about what are those wellness hours things that we see when we're uh submitting our CLE online? What are they?

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Well, as a result, you know, some of the positive things that we've seen as a result of the wellness initiative is the Virginia Law Foundation and other organizations actually having well-being credit. So when you're putting in your hours through the Virginia State Bar, you know, online system, you can actually put down, just like you have to have a certain number of ethics hours, you can actually get hours for watching well-being programming. So on the Virginia CLE website, there's a bunch of videos, and you'll see a lot of really great videos of Barbara there. But you actually get credit. It's a way to kind of incentivize, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 35:56

A one-hour credit that you need to have, or that's encouraged. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Yeah, it's a way to incentivize watching free CLEs.

SPEAKER_07 36:03

Can we incentivize the podcast?

SPEAKER_05 36:05

Is that yes, actually? I think that that's something that you know possibly.

SPEAKER_07 36:09

Suddenly the listener count's gonna skyrocket.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

But uh we can well, JLEP does those. Like we do ethics and wellness and we can get the two so you get you know more bang for your buck, so to speak. Such as the VJLEP retreat. Yes, we have two of them coming up, and I'll we'll pimp that out later.

SPEAKER_07 36:25

Now, from a preventative standpoint, can you talk about, I believe, fully, meaning like the heart attack at 60 started at 30, right? Like that type of stuff, right? I mean, what is wellness, right? It's your nutrition, fitness, healthy relationship. I mean, I'm sure there's a million things. How are your organizations encouraging those in the legal profession to take those things seriously? I mean, because they're the basics, right? But if you don't get the basics right, then you're gonna find yourself potentially in a situation that you don't want to be in.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Well, Hefla and I did with the well, I call it the magistrate school. I guess that's what they call it. But they yeah, the certification school. And magistrates just yesterday, right, we did it virtually, but there's a six dimensions of wellness. The ABA put that out a while ago. But in therapy, it's called the whole person model, where you look at all aspects of the person and all of every human being has this within there. You've seen six dimensions or eight dimensions, but it's not a piece of pie. It's not like you have to have your slice even all the time. It's about understanding what areas am I not doing well in and what areas am I doing well in. And we all have our season of life that we can do. You know, when I was newly married and my kids are really young, I couldn't go to the gym as much as I wanted to. I had to kind of negotiate that about who's gonna get the kids and who's gonna make dinner and who's gonna do this. My kids are in their 30s now. I don't have to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_07 37:41

So my ability There's not making dinner for them anymore?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

No, no. Well, one of them lives with us. So I'm joking. I would make dinner for them. But um, but it's like I don't have to negotiate that anymore. Like I can go to the gym and leave work and go to the gym and do whatever and come home and have dinner with my family and do whatever because my husband is a wonderful cook and I'm very fortunate for that. But the wellness is about like what season of life am I in that I can do that, you know, and the six dimensions talks about that. Like your physical, we're doing a test, see if Barbara can remember what we talked about yesterday. It's physical, occupational, emotional, social, intellectual, occupational. But it's really all of the things that make up a human being. You know, it's all it's all of those things. And the social aspect is one that we really talk a lot about because your toxicity level depends on who you spend your time with. Like, are those people really supporting you in a wellness way or are they supporting you in a negative way? And so social is about having friends that aren't in the law. Because if two lawyers get together or three lawyers get together and you're standing in line at Starbucks, you start talking about work.

SPEAKER_06 38:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

You know, therapists do the same thing. Every occupation has that. They do the same thing. So what happens is your brain never has a rest. And I went to a conference and I saw two lawyers standing in line and they were in the buffet line getting food, and I was behind them, kind of observing. And one of them was not picking up on the social cues of the other lawyer because this other lawyer is like, I want to blow through here and get my food and sit down. The other one had a plate full of food and followed him from station to station talking about a case. And he was looking at her like, go away. She was like very, like really pressured speech and really engaged in this. And the other guy, it was making me anxious watching that because this other person was like just trying to get away from it. And that's why it's important we have a friend group that does other things. Because when my friends get together, they don't care, they don't want to know what I do. Like they know what I do, but like I don't talk about a therapist or a case that I have or whatever. Like, I don't talk about those things. We talk about let's grab coffee and go to dinner or go to TJ's and you know, shoot the crap and do whatever.

SPEAKER_07 39:42

My kickball team could care less that I'm a lone attorney. So it's uh but it's been a lot of fun. So that's I'm very passionate about kickball on Monday nights.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I still remember the sound of that kickball when it bopped you in the face.

unknown 39:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

But maybe that just happened to me because I would get that to happen to me a lot maybe.

SPEAKER_07 39:58

I'm confident it's happened to me before. I find a way to get hurt in most things in life. So I've gotten hurt many ways in kickball. Talk about alcohol. What is it about alcohol that's just it's like a staple for social events in the legal profession?

SPEAKER_03 40:12

For a lot of things.

SPEAKER_07 40:13

Like it's it's funny. It's almost like, let's just say hype alcohol is a drug. It is a drug. Alcohol's a drug. It is the only drug where people, if you don't do it, people are like, well, what's wrong, man? It's like it's which is kind of twisted if you think about it.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

It is. It is.

SPEAKER_07 40:26

Why is it so prevalent? In my understanding, it's not acceptable. Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Very much so. It's not socially acceptable to go bump a few lines of cocaine while you're sitting at the dinner table unless you're in the 80s. But it's very socially acceptable to meet somebody for a beer down at the tobacco company to just kind of talk about the day or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that, right? There's nothing wrong with that. But when it tips over, is when you start using it as a way to make yourself start feeling better. Again, there's really nothing wrong with that. But what happens is it's like dying by a thousand paper cuts, right? Because you build up a tolerance. Even if you're a social drinker, you can build up a tolerance to alcohol. So what that means is if you go to dinner and you have a glass of wine and you feel really good and happy and you're relaxed, and then you keep doing that several times a month, you start to notice that maybe a glass of wine and maybe one and a half glasses will get me there, maybe two glasses gets me there. And then that's where you start to notice that, right? And so then that spills over to other substances. You know, it can spill over to the legal prescriptions that people get. Like, I'm really stressed. My doctor used to offer me Atavan all the time. And I got sober in 1998, and I had to educate my doctor on I'm stressed. I need to see a therapist. I don't need to take Xanax because that's not going to do anything for me.

SPEAKER_07 41:43

Well, I mean, that opens up a whole nother the medical profession. It does. I mean, I think there's an argument we don't have a wellness health care system. We have a sick care system, right? Like your doctors traditionally aren't talking about these are the things you need to do for longevity purposes to feel good. To it's more, hey, what are your symptoms? Let me write you a prescription.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

That's where you might need to find another doctor. And I'm not doctor bashing at all. I'm I'm really not. And I've been very, very fortunate to work with amazing psychiatrists and physicians and nurses that understand addiction, that understand what you need to do to kind of be healthy. And I have issues with my back, and my spine doctor sat down with me and I was telling about CrossFit and how I do CrossFit. And his first thing is you shouldn't do that. But the one thing that I was so impressed with is he sat down with me and said, Tell me what you do and how you scale things so you can work out. And I've never had a physician do that before. And so I was able to sit down with him and say, building these muscles up actually prevents me from getting injured, right? I'm not lifting 500 pounds. I'm paying attention to what my body needs at that time. And maybe I'm gonna lift heavier one day than the next, but it's really what my body can do. And I'm not stupid about it, you know. And so for him to sit and take the time to listen, I was in there 30 minutes, but I felt like I was in there for an hour because he sat, he literally sat down at a table and had a conversation with me.

SPEAKER_07 43:04

And that's not common. And that's just that's the exception. It is.

SPEAKER_03 43:07

So back to alcohol, I think it's a social lubricant. You know, I know that there are law schools that are really starting to get away from it. There's some deans of the law school that are starting to do other functions that alcohol's not around. It's not prevalent. They're offering more mocktail solutions. But I can tell you, some of the mocktails taste like the real thing. And that can be, for someone that's sober like myself, can be a little bit dangerous. Because at our women's retreat last year, we had a mocktail bar and I had a sangria. It looked like grape juice. And I took a swig and I spit it out because it tastes like I was drinking wine. And I went up to the bartender, air quote, and I said, What is in this? And he told me, he said, I have to look at the bottle every time I open it because when I open it, it smells just like a regular glass of wine to me. And so if you're sober, you for me, I don't want to drink that. Like give me a Shirley Temple and I'm happy. I like Shirley Temples. They're cool.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Well, sometimes some of those drinks have low doses of alcohol.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

They do have low doses of alcohol that are in it. But I think it goes back to the motive and the purpose of that is because you're using something out here to make in here feel better.

SPEAKER_06 44:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Again, we're not the alcohol police. People can drink safely, but I think in the legal profession, it's so pervasive when you have a bar in your office and you see people, you know, it's glamorized. Like to go in your boss's office and he pulls out the gorgeous crystal and the scotch comes out. It's like, that's kind of sexy to be able to do that. You know, I do that and I break out in handcuffs. Like that doesn't work for Barbara. You know, so, and other people can see that that's the norm. So they start doing that. And I can't tell you how many people have been referred to JLAP by their partners who have said my associate is drinking in their office. They're hiding it in their backpack, they're hiding it in their desk. And obviously, when something like that shows up at work, then that's a sign that something's really bad because usually things like that don't show up at work. But I think it's just it's become so normalized. You know, it's just acceptable to do that. It's a legal drug and it's acceptable to do that. And it's been around a long, long time.

SPEAKER_07 45:07

Oh, of course. No, of course. I have a couple more questions. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:11

And uh Heath, if I could start with you, that would be great. Two things. First question What is the one thing that you want our listeners to know about the wellness initiative and the wellness program with the Supreme Court?

SPEAKER_05 45:25

I would like them to know that they have a lot more of a role in changing the culture than they realize. I think that this program goes way beyond, you know, just fitness or just dimensions of wellness. I think as a culture, we can really make systemic changes that improves the legal profession for everyone. And it I think it impacts society. And so I think sometimes we need to kind of expand our lens to look beyond just wellness as being kind of like this buzz topic and really look at how does this actually impact our world? Because I do believe that when you have systemic change where people have confidence in their justice system, because it's really about access to justice. And when you have judges that are healthy, you have attorneys that are healthy, it affects the community and which impacts everybody, right? It impacts access to justice, it impacts quality of programming, it impacts longevity, sustainability. And I think that we have to look a little bit more forward thinking about this, because what I have slowly seen changing around me is a little bit more normalization of people asking for help. I'll give you an example. When I first started, we developed a coaching program at the court, a judicial coaching program, which is a professional enhancement tool to help judges kind of, you know, be the best that they can be. And I I've been fortunate enough to see this program grow. And so, you know, the first year, it was we we maybe had 20, 30 judges. And now we have, you know, almost 60 judges. It's just each year I've just noticed this continuing to grow. And more and more people are feeling comfortable in groups to say, Oh, I think I have some imposter syndrome. Or do you have a coach that I could talk to? So I think that over time we're hoping that a lot of things get normalized and that we essentially have a culture and legal professionals that just pick up the phone and just call each other and say, hey, I need some advice about this. And then no one looks at each other like there's something weird about that. It's just acceptable.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

And in response to that, JLab has a judicial round table. It's not advertised. The link is not advertised, and it's for judges who can come on and meet with other judges and just have that conversation of how things are going and what they're doing and how they can support each other and just ask basic questions, you know. And it's been amazing to watch. Like, I obviously don't have a lot to contribute to that. I just hosted and I'm just there. But it's been really nice to have a lot of the judges come. And we had seven or eight judges on one time, and they were just having this great discussion about practice and how things have changed and what they would like to see and what they would like to do. And how do you handle this? Like, I'm in a rural courthouse, and everybody asked me about what do I do when the air conditioning doesn't work. He's like, how like I'm supposed to navigate that. And then you have another judge that might be in Fairfax or Arlington, and they look at him like, don't you have people to take care of that? You know, so it's just really interesting to have that. And they talk about everything, you know, in support. And so that was born out of that because we had a lot of judges that were struggling with overall who to talk to. And I can't share this with just everybody. Right.

SPEAKER_07 48:56

Um, judges are people too, right? Absolutely. Some of them.

SPEAKER_05 48:58

Imagine what would happen if attorneys, when they're interviewing for jobs, started asking the employer, the interviewer, questions such as, so you know, you and they end an interview with, so do you have any questions for me? If people started asking questions like, so do you have a wellness-informed law firm? What does that look like? The ABA play. So can you imagine how that over time would change our culture if employers and supervisors then had to think about, well, what does our organization look like? You know, are we actually committed to having a firm that actually supports well-being? Because it does make a difference, you know, it does improve quality of work, sustainability, longevity in the profession, turnover rate is going to be lower.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

And you talked about that a little bit earlier, like about having that supervisor that realizes, hey, maybe we need to go on.

SPEAKER_07 49:52

I'll tell you, hopefully you found this impressive. But our firm, I think six, nine months ago, we committed to core values. And one of the six is fun.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:02

And uh it's we've got it hanging on the wall. So it, I mean, I I'd like to think fun is an element of wellness, right? Like we it is and so that is something that we when we when we post our job openings, we have our six core values and fun's in there, right? Like it's right, everyone has to walk by it every single day. And so culture is incredibly important. Incredibly, incredibly important.

SPEAKER_05 50:25

So, you know, um, one of our colleagues, they had a room where you could take some time, read a book. They had dumbbells there, exercise videos, books, you know, just different things that if you needed to take a break, even if it was just 15 minutes, it was just a quiet room where you could just sit and kind of decompress. But I think things like that really send a message to your employees, especially if the supervisor is using the room. Now, sometimes people have the room and nobody's using the room. But if you're not gonna be able to do it, and it doesn't have to be yoga, right?

SPEAKER_07 50:59

Like it can be it can be specific to your firm, what works for your team, what works for you, right?

SPEAKER_05 51:03

So or maybe just sitting there staring at the at the wall. I mean, it could be anything really, because you know, as Barbara said, like well-being, it's different forms. There's it's a holistic kind of concept, but it looks different for everybody. Some people, I know, I know like Barbara, we talk about yoga, and Barbara's like, I would fall asleep, you know. She talks about how she would fall asleep doing yoga or Pilates, but somebody else might get completely recharged by doing the same activity. So but that's what's so exciting about our job. We are really blessed and fortunate to number one, have a job where we get to be creative and come up with ideas, and secondly, just having support with each other. It's such a collaborative group that we're just lucky.

SPEAKER_07 51:47

So absolutely. Barbara.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

I need to plug. Sure. I need to plug. J Up does offer free assessments and free referrals, and we do those in our office in Richmond. We also offer the same thing for family members, and then also at the Virginian September 18th, 19th, and 20th, we're doing our fall retreat, which has been a staple of JLAP for a very, very, very long time. And that's a weekend of CLE. So for the women's retreat, we have 14.5 hours of CLE credit, and that is the most we've ever done. And it's incredibly impressive. It does, it's very impressive. But those are ways to take care of your wellness because you can come and be in this beautiful hotel and have really good food and relax, connect with other people. And the thing with wellness is that wellness is about that connection. And an illness is about isolation. You know, it's about feeling less than, it's about feeling more isolated. Addiction is the same way. Recovery is about connection, addiction is about isolation. We're also having a dinner with Misha Poor, who is phenomenal. She uh is an attorney out of West Virginia, and she is just, I could listen to the woman talk all day long. We're having a dinner. We have great sponsors that are helping us. So it really is a it's a combination effort with everything. So if they go to the website, go to our website. Vjlab.org. Yeah, VJ Lab.org, and you can get all the information. You can always call me if you need to, or call Charlene, and we're glad to help you if you have any questions about anything. But a retreat is a great way to reconnect and kind of de-stress. And I can honestly tell you that the people at our retreat, if they are working, they're being really on the down low about it. They're doing it very disagreeable. Because most retreats that we go, most CLEs that we go to, I look at the tops of people's heads because they're working.

unknown 53:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

I kind of call it out sometimes, but I can't help it.

SPEAKER_05 53:30

The other thing that I want to mention when you had talked about dimensions of wellness and what we do to kind of address this, we have a statewide wellness challenge that we do during Wellbeing Week in the Law. And this year it's the week of May 4th. So we work with the Virginia Bar Association and we have an app that we use. It's called the Wellbeing Plus app. And it's basically CrossFit on there. Because I have to get a trained later. We should have to do that next year.

SPEAKER_07 53:54

But um I'm a CrossFitter too, by the way. So I'm a part of the cult.

SPEAKER_05 53:59

So this year there's gonna be a step challenge, and we're finding ways to kind of incorporate other dimensions of wellness as well. But it's a friendly competition for everyone in the legal profession. It's free. You go to VBA.org to register. We're gonna have webinars that week, at least three, where you can get CLE credit as well. So it's a great opportunity to get credit, kind of compete with your colleagues, you get prizes for the team. You can either do it individually or as a group. And so that's another fun thing that we do every single year.

SPEAKER_07 54:29

That's awesome. Now, you guys are doing awesome stuff. So, and I I'm it's been a privilege to have you both because I really think that not enough people know about these resources and what you all are doing. And I genuinely believe that we'll be more effective advocates and just better people if we take the message that you guys are sharing seriously.

SPEAKER_03 54:51

And if I can use the myth, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I think a myth is that we are not connected to the bar. JLAP is not connected to the bar, we're not connected to the court system at all. We are a nonprofit, we are fully independent of that. Other lawyer assistance programs that surround Virginia are what we call bar laps, where they are connected to the bar through funding, and we are not.

SPEAKER_05 55:12

And they have a 24-hour hotline. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

So which is confidential. Everything is confidential. And we have people that will just call us and say, I'm really worried about this attorney. And they'll just call and talk. I don't need to know who it is, but they'll just talk about like what do I do? This is what I'm seeing, what's going on. And we do the same thing with judges as well, who have concerns about people.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Which helps people avoid bar complaints when you have colleagues that actually can make that anonymous referral.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

And the bar does a one-way referral with us where they will call us and say, I'm really concerned about this person. They are impaired. This is what we've been seeing and hearing. Can you reach out to them? And then once the phone is hung up, I never contact them unless that client has signed a release of information that allows me to do that. So sometimes I end up talking to the person and they come in and sometimes I never hear anything back from them. But that's something very unique and unusual that the bar is doing in an effort to help with wellness. And that's when I've shared that before with other labs, they look at me like I have three heads because it's so unusual. But that's another stuff that they're doing.

SPEAKER_07 56:12

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

For wellness.

SPEAKER_07 56:14

Thank you both. This has been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

We could talk for another hour.

SPEAKER_07 56:18

I'm sure we could. We'll have to do a part two at some point. So, but anyways, I look forward to staying in touch with you both. Is there anything that we can do to assist? Don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

Thanks for listening to Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Niall Abu Saki. Please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or any major podcast platform. Together, we're building a tribe of trial lawyers to remind the world what human life is truly worth. One verdict at a time.