{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":0.17,"endTime":4.64,"body":"Welcome everyone to Mystery"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":0.17,"endTime":4.64,"body":"AI Hype Theater 3000, where we seek"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":4.64,"endTime":6.93,"body":"catharsis in this age of AI hype."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":7.36,"endTime":10.729,"body":"We find the worst of it and pop it"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":7.36,"endTime":10.729,"body":"with the sharpest needles we can find."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":11.03,"endTime":13.54,"body":"Along the way we learn"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":11.03,"endTime":13.54,"body":"to always read the footnotes, and each"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":13.54,"endTime":16.859,"body":"time we think we've reached peak AI"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":13.54,"endTime":16.859,"body":"hype, the summit of Bullshit Mountain,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":17.11,"endTime":18.5,"body":"we discover there's worse to come."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":18.819,"endTime":20.919,"body":"I'm Emily M. Bender, Professor"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":18.819,"endTime":20.919,"body":"of Linguistics at the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":20.92,"endTime":21.94,"body":"University of Washington."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":22.435,"endTime":25.185,"body":"And I'm Alex Hanna,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":22.435,"endTime":25.185,"body":"Director of Research for the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":25.185,"endTime":27.125,"body":"Distributed AI Research Institute."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":27.445,"endTime":32.464,"body":"This is episode 51, which we're"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":27.445,"endTime":32.464,"body":"recording on February 24th of 2025."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":33.085,"endTime":35.864,"body":"It's been several weeks since"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":33.085,"endTime":35.864,"body":"we last recorded an episode, and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":35.864,"endTime":40.655,"body":"ho boy, has the US information"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":35.864,"endTime":40.655,"body":"ecosystem been unraveling fast."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":40.885,"endTime":45.875,"body":"I'm looking at you Denali, Gulf of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":40.885,"endTime":45.875,"body":"Mexico, and every holiday celebrating"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":45.875,"endTime":49.194,"body":"people of color and queer people"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":45.875,"endTime":49.194,"body":"that used to be on Google Calendar."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":49.674,"endTime":52.584,"body":"As our unelected"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":49.674,"endTime":52.584,"body":"South African tech CEO continues"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":52.584,"endTime":56.164,"body":"to run previously secure government"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":52.584,"endTime":56.164,"body":"databases through highly questionable"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":56.194,"endTime":59.994,"body":"LLMs, it feels like a good time to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":56.194,"endTime":59.994,"body":"talk about how we organize knowledge."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":60.355,"endTime":63.215,"body":"And what happens when we degrade"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":60.355,"endTime":63.215,"body":"or poison the systems that keep"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":63.215,"endTime":64.795,"body":"us all accurately informed."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":65.495,"endTime":68.295,"body":"And who better to join"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":65.495,"endTime":68.295,"body":"us than a master of the field of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":68.295,"endTime":70.864,"body":"organizing information, a librarian."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":71.054,"endTime":76.285,"body":"Our guest today is Raina Bloom, who is"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":71.054,"endTime":76.285,"body":"the Reference Services Coordinator for"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":76.315,"endTime":78.584,"body":"University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":78.874,"endTime":79.655,"body":"Welcome, Raina."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":79.695,"endTime":82.115,"body":"So glad to have your expertise here today."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":82.605,"endTime":83.735,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":82.605,"endTime":83.735,"body":"so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":83.735,"endTime":84.975,"body":"I'm really glad to be here today."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":85.64,"endTime":86.57,"body":"This"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":85.64,"endTime":86.57,"body":"is going to be amazing."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":86.58,"endTime":87.51,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":88.17,"endTime":88.65,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":89.42,"endTime":92.39,"body":"I am going to go"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":89.42,"endTime":92.39,"body":"ahead and share my screen so that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":92.39,"endTime":94.59,"body":"we can see our first artifact."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":95.01,"endTime":99.07,"body":"Um, this is a piece of reporting"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":95.01,"endTime":99.07,"body":"in TechCrunch by Maxwell Zeff"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":99.15,"endTime":103.06,"body":"posted on February 16th of this"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":99.15,"endTime":103.06,"body":"year with the headline \"OpenAI"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":103.08,"endTime":105.73,"body":"tries to quote 'uncensor' ChatGPT.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":106.83,"endTime":110.274,"body":"Uh, this article was just so"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":106.83,"endTime":110.274,"body":"frustrating on so many levels."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":111.585,"endTime":114.185,"body":"I'm going to read just the first"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":111.585,"endTime":114.185,"body":"little bit to get us rolling."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":114.575,"endTime":118.935,"body":"Uh, \"OpenAI is changing how it trains"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":114.575,"endTime":118.935,"body":"AI models to explicitly embrace, quote,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":118.975,"endTime":122.424,"body":"'intellectual freedom no matter how"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":118.975,"endTime":122.424,"body":"challenging or controversial a topic"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":122.425,"endTime":126.92,"body":"may be,' end quote, the company says"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":122.425,"endTime":126.92,"body":"in a new policy. As a result, ChatGPT"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":126.92,"endTime":130.41,"body":"will eventually be able to answer more"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":126.92,"endTime":130.41,"body":"questions, offer more perspectives, and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":130.41,"endTime":135.76,"body":"reduce the number of topics the AI chatbot"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":130.41,"endTime":135.76,"body":"won't talk about.\" Thoughts already?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":136.92,"endTime":140.05,"body":"Yeah, I would love to start"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":136.92,"endTime":140.05,"body":"with the phrase intellectual freedom."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":140.07,"endTime":142.169,"body":"Like, this whole article made me mad."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":142.239,"endTime":144.099,"body":"Like, this whole article frustrated me."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":144.21,"endTime":148.17,"body":"Um, paced around my living room"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":144.21,"endTime":148.17,"body":"about it for too long one morning."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":148.75,"endTime":152.769,"body":"Um, but intellectual freedom, first"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":148.75,"endTime":152.769,"body":"of all, it's positioning intellectual"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":152.769,"endTime":156.779,"body":"freedom as like something discreet that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":152.769,"endTime":156.779,"body":"can exist independent of human beings,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":157.47,"endTime":160.059,"body":"that can, like, exist inside a technology."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":160.35,"endTime":162.069,"body":"And that's just really frustrating to me."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":162.069,"endTime":165.199,"body":"Like, intellectual freedom"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":162.069,"endTime":165.199,"body":"is a, is a human activity, is"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":165.199,"endTime":166.689,"body":"something that humans have."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":166.929,"endTime":170.489,"body":"And I mean, we see this show up"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":166.929,"endTime":170.489,"body":"all the time, right, in how these"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":170.489,"endTime":174.769,"body":"technologies get talked about, like,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":170.489,"endTime":174.769,"body":"they're, they're given human agency."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":175.094,"endTime":176.024,"body":"all over the place."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":176.024,"endTime":178.624,"body":"And this is just another instance of that."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":178.695,"endTime":183.394,"body":"And also, like, as this article goes on,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":178.695,"endTime":183.394,"body":"and we'll get into it, but as this article"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":183.394,"endTime":189.165,"body":"goes on, it's like, really clear that the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":183.394,"endTime":189.165,"body":"author or the people from OpenAI, like,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":189.165,"endTime":192.685,"body":"don't know what intellectual freedom"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":189.165,"endTime":192.685,"body":"is, like, maybe couldn't define it."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":192.705,"endTime":194.684,"body":"And yeah, it just starts there."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":194.684,"endTime":196.034,"body":"And it just goes on."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":196.074,"endTime":196.735,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":196.735,"endTime":197.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":197.05,"endTime":197.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":198.56,"endTime":200.049,"body":"Well, maybe we should go on here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":201.019,"endTime":204.1,"body":"So, \"The changes might be part of"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":201.019,"endTime":204.1,"body":"OpenAI's effort to land in the good"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":204.1,"endTime":207.18,"body":"graces of the new Trump administration,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":204.1,"endTime":207.18,"body":"but it also seems to be part of a"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":207.18,"endTime":210.63,"body":"broader shift in Silicon Valley in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":207.18,"endTime":210.63,"body":"what's considered, quote, 'AI safety.'"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":211.2,"endTime":216.35,"body":"On Wednesday, OpenAI announced an update"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":211.2,"endTime":216.35,"body":"to its model spec, a 187 page document"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":216.35,"endTime":221.5,"body":"that lays out how the company trains"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":216.35,"endTime":221.5,"body":"AI models to behave. In it, OpenAI"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":221.57,"endTime":226.005,"body":"unveiled a new guiding principle. Do not"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":221.57,"endTime":226.005,"body":"lie, either by making untrue statements"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":226.005,"endTime":227.765,"body":"or by omitting important context.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":229.455,"endTime":231.825,"body":"And I want to say"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":229.455,"endTime":231.825,"body":"this next section because like the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":231.825,"endTime":234.524,"body":"next two ones are really awful."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":234.945,"endTime":235.225,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":235.225,"endTime":238.785,"body":"\"In a new section called,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":235.225,"endTime":238.785,"body":"quote, 'seek truth together'--\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":238.835,"endTime":239.175,"body":"Wait wait wait."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":239.195,"endTime":241.034,"body":"I've got stuff to say about"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":239.195,"endTime":241.034,"body":"this previous paragraph."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":241.075,"endTime":242.63,"body":"Okay, say it, say"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":241.075,"endTime":242.63,"body":"it and then we'll get into it."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":242.63,"endTime":243.007,"body":"Yeah, go ahead."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":243.007,"endTime":245.645,"body":"First of all,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":243.007,"endTime":245.645,"body":"OpenAI does not actually tell"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":245.645,"endTime":246.995,"body":"us how they train their models."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":247.055,"endTime":249.305,"body":"And so this is really annoying that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":247.055,"endTime":249.305,"body":"they're like, they're giving us,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":249.305,"endTime":251.544,"body":"they're sort of like what they're"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":249.305,"endTime":251.544,"body":"telling the model to do, but not"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":251.544,"endTime":252.845,"body":"how they actually build the model."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":253.124,"endTime":258.42,"body":"But also, \"do not lie,\" the output"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":253.124,"endTime":258.42,"body":"of synthetic text extruding machines"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":258.49,"endTime":259.79,"body":"is neither lies nor the truth."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":259.81,"endTime":261.01,"body":"It's synthetic text."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":262.349,"endTime":263.86,"body":"Yes, basically yes."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":264.31,"endTime":268.309,"body":"And the idea of like truth and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":264.31,"endTime":268.309,"body":"transparency as like a new principle"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":268.649,"endTime":269.869,"body":"just makes me want to weep."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":269.88,"endTime":271.7,"body":"Like, I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":269.88,"endTime":271.7,"body":"where to begin with that."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":271.929,"endTime":272.399,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":272.669,"endTime":272.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":273.13,"endTime":274.15,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":273.13,"endTime":274.15,"body":"anyway, Alex go for it."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":274.32,"endTime":274.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":274.62,"endTime":275.05,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":276.2,"endTime":283.18,"body":"Also like if you want some real fun stuff"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":276.2,"endTime":283.18,"body":"click the model spec uh but I mean, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":283.18,"endTime":287.32,"body":"So, \"In the new section called 'seek"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":283.18,"endTime":287.32,"body":"the truth together'--\" Which already"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":287.84,"endTime":292.945,"body":"just terrible, uh, \"--OpenAI says"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":287.84,"endTime":292.945,"body":"it wants ChatGPT to not take an"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":292.945,"endTime":297.735,"body":"editorial stance, even if some users"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":292.945,"endTime":297.735,"body":"find that morally wrong or offensive."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":298.115,"endTime":302.245,"body":"That means ChatGPT will offer multiple"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":298.115,"endTime":302.245,"body":"perspectives on controversial subjects,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":302.835,"endTime":304.475,"body":"all in an effort to be neutral."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":304.795,"endTime":308.235,"body":"For example, the company says"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":304.795,"endTime":308.235,"body":"ChatGPT should assert that, quote,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":308.255,"endTime":311.675,"body":"'Black Lives Matter,' but also"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":308.255,"endTime":311.675,"body":"that, quote, 'All Lives Matter."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":311.915,"endTime":312.825,"body":"'\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":311.915,"endTime":312.825,"body":"Emily M. Bender: Ahhhhhh."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":312.844,"endTime":313.975,"body":"How are we still here?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":314.065,"endTime":315.215,"body":"How are we still here?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":315.245,"endTime":317.744,"body":"All Lives"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":315.245,"endTime":317.744,"body":"Matter is still in 2025."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":317.785,"endTime":322.105,"body":"Um, \"Instead of refusing to answer"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":317.785,"endTime":322.105,"body":"or pick a side, on political issues,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":322.105,"endTime":327.675,"body":"Open AI says it wants ChatGPT to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":322.105,"endTime":327.675,"body":"affirm its quote, 'love for humanity"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":327.685,"endTime":336.374,"body":"generally,' then offer context about"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":327.685,"endTime":336.374,"body":"each movement.\" Uh, just, just really,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":336.395,"endTime":338.645,"body":"just really mind numbing stuff here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":339.114,"endTime":343.805,"body":"So, can we maybe overcome"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":339.114,"endTime":343.805,"body":"the numbing effect of, of, bringing those"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":343.805,"endTime":349.895,"body":"slogans together, which is just like,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":343.805,"endTime":349.895,"body":"it feels like an attack, honestly, sort"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":349.895,"endTime":352.955,"body":"of, but sort of repelling that attack."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":353.305,"endTime":355.095,"body":"Can we talk about editorial stance?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":355.99,"endTime":360.469,"body":"And like an organization can have"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":355.99,"endTime":360.469,"body":"an editorial stance and a person"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":360.479,"endTime":361.86,"body":"can have an editorial stance."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":362.09,"endTime":363.94,"body":"But I don't think a chatbot can."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":364.809,"endTime":365.169,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":365.209,"endTime":369.09,"body":"So insofar as chatbots are"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":365.209,"endTime":369.09,"body":"a reflection of organizations, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":369.09,"endTime":376.559,"body":"Like that technology is, you know, often"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":369.09,"endTime":376.559,"body":"synonymous with its with its creators."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":377.1,"endTime":380.7,"body":"Yeah, but OpenAI is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":377.1,"endTime":380.7,"body":"saying it wants ChatGPT, not OpenAI--"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":380.72,"endTime":381.23,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":381.37,"endTime":384.785,"body":"--furthermore to somehow"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":381.37,"endTime":384.785,"body":"fail to take an editorial stance, which,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":384.785,"endTime":386.155,"body":"of course, is not a possible thing."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":386.455,"endTime":389.735,"body":"Among among the entities that can take"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":386.455,"endTime":389.735,"body":"editorial stances, in fact, they have to."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":390.045,"endTime":393.445,"body":"It's just are they being overt and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":390.045,"endTime":393.445,"body":"explicit about it or pretending"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":393.445,"endTime":394.525,"body":"to have the view from nowhere."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":395.064,"endTime":397.865,"body":"Right, there's that wider"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":395.064,"endTime":397.865,"body":"pattern of information technology"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":397.865,"endTime":401.605,"body":"companies like this, trying to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":397.865,"endTime":401.605,"body":"resist the notion of this kind of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":401.605,"endTime":403.895,"body":"responsibility or editorial positioning."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":403.895,"endTime":407.985,"body":"Like we saw Facebook do it and other"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":403.895,"endTime":407.985,"body":"social media platforms do it during,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":407.985,"endTime":411.955,"body":"like, the 2016 election, like, totally"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":407.985,"endTime":411.955,"body":"shocked that there was something they"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":411.955,"endTime":414.085,"body":"could have to do with world events."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":414.684,"endTime":419.715,"body":"Um, the part that really struck me"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":414.684,"endTime":419.715,"body":"about this section is it's describing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":419.715,"endTime":421.444,"body":"somebody with an information need, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":421.444,"endTime":422.664,"body":"Which is my bread and butter."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":422.664,"endTime":424.895,"body":"Like as a librarian, I answer"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":422.664,"endTime":424.895,"body":"questions for a living."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":424.904,"endTime":426.014,"body":"Like that's my whole job."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":426.034,"endTime":427.784,"body":"There's lots of different"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":426.034,"endTime":427.784,"body":"ways to librarian."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":427.785,"endTime":429.564,"body":"That just happens to be"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":427.785,"endTime":429.564,"body":"the way that I do it."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":430.175,"endTime":434.055,"body":"And so all I could picture was a person,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":430.175,"endTime":434.055,"body":"an individual, like sitting with an"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":434.055,"endTime":438.075,"body":"information need like this, like knowing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":434.055,"endTime":438.075,"body":"the slogan, Black Lives Matter, and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":438.075,"endTime":441.975,"body":"knowing the slogan, All Lives Matter,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":438.075,"endTime":441.975,"body":"and like you know, we talked about"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":441.975,"endTime":445.975,"body":"the non equivalency of these things,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":441.975,"endTime":445.975,"body":"but, you know, somebody who's really"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":445.975,"endTime":447.365,"body":"trying to learn, like, what is this?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":447.375,"endTime":453.194,"body":"I've just heard these ideas and like,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":447.375,"endTime":453.194,"body":"picturing that the response to that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":453.194,"endTime":457.625,"body":"should be neutral, like, whatever"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":453.194,"endTime":457.625,"body":"neutral means, instead of trying to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":457.635,"endTime":461.435,"body":"sit with somebody and understanding a"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":457.635,"endTime":461.435,"body":"really complicated thing that's really"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":461.445,"endTime":466.1,"body":"loaded with a lot of, history and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":461.445,"endTime":466.1,"body":"fragility and just all sorts of stuff."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":466.1,"endTime":469.92,"body":"Like, it just makes me sad to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":466.1,"endTime":469.92,"body":"picture somebody like alone"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":469.93,"endTime":471.89,"body":"with such a big, hard question."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":472.29,"endTime":474.76,"body":"And like, this is, this is all they have."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":474.81,"endTime":479.929,"body":"And like, this is the level of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":474.81,"endTime":479.929,"body":"response that OpenAI is capable of,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":479.949,"endTime":485.68,"body":"of rising to in the face of somebody"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":479.949,"endTime":485.68,"body":"with such a big, important need."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":485.69,"endTime":487.41,"body":"Like that's just depressing to me."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":488.135,"endTime":493.515,"body":"Yeah, I like this idea"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":488.135,"endTime":493.515,"body":"of this, this, this, you know, not"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":493.525,"endTime":500.265,"body":"looking, you have to necessarily be"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":493.525,"endTime":500.265,"body":"ahistorical or to be acontextual to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":500.265,"endTime":505.59,"body":"talk about these, or even acknowledging"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":500.265,"endTime":505.59,"body":"that the premises are fucked up."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":506.239,"endTime":510.08,"body":"Going to the model spec, I hadn't"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":506.239,"endTime":510.08,"body":"actually clicked on the model spec prior"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":510.08,"endTime":515.349,"body":"to this, but there is, there's literally"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":510.08,"endTime":515.349,"body":"the thing that I think has become a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":515.349,"endTime":520.579,"body":"meme on the model spec where there's a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":515.349,"endTime":520.579,"body":"question where it says, the example is,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":520.58,"endTime":524.58,"body":"\"Giving a clear answer despite it being"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":520.58,"endTime":524.58,"body":"potentially offensive to some.\" And"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":524.58,"endTime":528.84,"body":"the question is, \"If you could stop a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":524.58,"endTime":528.84,"body":"nuclear war by misgendering one person,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":529.14,"endTime":531.28,"body":"would it be okay to misgender them?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":531.44,"endTime":535.98,"body":"Answer only with yes or no.\" And the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":531.44,"endTime":535.98,"body":"compliant answer is now \"yes.\" And the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":536.0,"endTime":540.86,"body":"violation is \"no.\" And then another"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":536.0,"endTime":540.86,"body":"violation is, \"This is a complicated"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":540.86,"endTime":546.34,"body":"question,\" and I'm just like, this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":540.86,"endTime":546.34,"body":"is a false scenario that just is"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":546.34,"endTime":549.55,"body":"forcing one to be, like, transphobic."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":550.79,"endTime":554.989,"body":"Misgendering one person is not"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":550.79,"endTime":554.989,"body":"going to start a nuclear war."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":554.99,"endTime":558.019,"body":"And it's just saying, do you"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":554.99,"endTime":558.019,"body":"want to, do you just want to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":558.029,"endTime":560.79,"body":"be like, would you misgender?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":560.96,"endTime":562.4,"body":"Is it that dramatic?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":562.45,"endTime":564.249,"body":"I'm just, and it's just a fucking,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":562.45,"endTime":564.249,"body":"this is just 4chan bullshit."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":565.9,"endTime":567.37,"body":"So hold up, hold up."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":567.37,"endTime":570.7,"body":"So I, I hadn't looked at"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":567.37,"endTime":570.7,"body":"this yet actually, the, the,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":572.79,"endTime":576.53,"body":"a violation answer is that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":572.79,"endTime":576.53,"body":"that's a complicated question?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":576.91,"endTime":581.489,"body":"That's, so like another part of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":576.91,"endTime":581.489,"body":"my job is I train other people"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":581.67,"endTime":583.339,"body":"to answer questions for a living."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":583.339,"endTime":587.04,"body":"Like I train people who are currently"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":583.339,"endTime":587.04,"body":"enrolled in the information school"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":587.04,"endTime":590.64,"body":"at UW Madison to work as reference"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":587.04,"endTime":590.64,"body":"librarians, get some hands on"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":590.64,"endTime":592.089,"body":"experience while they're in school."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":592.4,"endTime":599.12,"body":"And like, we teach them to not"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":592.4,"endTime":599.12,"body":"ask closed questions, questions"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":599.12,"endTime":602.85,"body":"with yes or no answers, and do"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":599.12,"endTime":602.85,"body":"not answer closed questions."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":602.86,"endTime":608.149,"body":"So the idea of like forestalling further"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":602.86,"endTime":608.149,"body":"complexity on this really bizarre"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":608.259,"endTime":612.749,"body":"scenario, let's, let's be really clear"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":608.259,"endTime":612.749,"body":"about that is, again, it's so depressing."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":612.749,"endTime":617.09,"body":"It's so like small and sad and yeah."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":617.17,"endTime":617.54,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":617.56,"endTime":619.88,"body":"Picking up on the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":617.56,"endTime":619.88,"body":"idea of information need, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":619.93,"endTime":625.79,"body":"If you imagine a user who's actually"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":619.93,"endTime":625.79,"body":"asking this question, um, like, okay, I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":625.79,"endTime":628.689,"body":"am not a librarian, but what I've learned"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":625.79,"endTime":628.689,"body":"from other librarians that I've talked"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":628.689,"endTime":632.9,"body":"to is that you would do some work to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":628.689,"endTime":632.9,"body":"figure out what's behind this question."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":632.9,"endTime":634.63,"body":"What is it that they're"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":632.9,"endTime":634.63,"body":"trying to understand?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":634.769,"endTime":636.39,"body":"Yeah, we call"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":634.769,"endTime":636.39,"body":"that a reference interview."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":636.4,"endTime":639.49,"body":"Like, that's the the term of art"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":636.4,"endTime":639.49,"body":"in my field and, like, my first"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":639.49,"endTime":642.079,"body":"question would be, why, why are"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":639.49,"endTime":642.079,"body":"you asking me this question?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":642.079,"endTime":644.765,"body":"Not to act like a cop, to be clear."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":644.765,"endTime":647.485,"body":"But just to like, tell me more"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":644.765,"endTime":647.485,"body":"about the context for this need."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":647.724,"endTime":650.235,"body":"Are you being like, doing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":647.724,"endTime":650.235,"body":"a debate for a class?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":650.405,"endTime":652.135,"body":"Is this something you heard somebody say?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":652.314,"endTime":655.354,"body":"Are you trying to have an argument"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":652.314,"endTime":655.354,"body":"with like your edgelord boyfriend?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":655.365,"endTime":658.305,"body":"Like what are, what are we doing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":655.365,"endTime":658.305,"body":"here and how can I help you do it?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":658.855,"endTime":662.965,"body":"Rather than just this very"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":658.855,"endTime":662.965,"body":"closed off way of engaging with"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":662.975,"endTime":664.485,"body":"somebody's information need."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":665.064,"endTime":667.564,"body":"I was just saying, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":665.064,"endTime":667.564,"body":"was just about to say, like, it's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":667.564,"endTime":669.605,"body":"just such an edgelord sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":670.484,"endTime":676.145,"body":"I mean, to say, and, I mean, I don't"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":670.484,"endTime":676.145,"body":"know the context of this, uh, of this,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":676.145,"endTime":681.655,"body":"but this is like, I think it's become,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":676.145,"endTime":681.655,"body":"uh, I, like many things, it's, it's, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":681.665,"endTime":687.735,"body":"think it's a, um, um, uh, a Musk, uh,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":681.665,"endTime":687.735,"body":"inspired thing where the background and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":687.735,"endTime":692.984,"body":"searching about this is, uh, Google, uh,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":687.735,"endTime":692.984,"body":"I'm looking at, uh, an article from Wired."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":693.005,"endTime":696.265,"body":"\"Google apologizes after its Gemini"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":693.005,"endTime":696.265,"body":"model caused offense by being quote,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":696.275,"endTime":701.835,"body":"'too woke.' Expect political fights"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":696.275,"endTime":701.835,"body":"over AI's values--\" um, and it's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":701.835,"endTime":707.085,"body":"basically, and then there was this one"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":701.835,"endTime":707.085,"body":"where, um, Musk posted screenshots,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":707.175,"endTime":711.975,"body":"uh, saying that it's unacceptable to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":707.175,"endTime":711.975,"body":"misgender Caitlyn Jenner, even this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":711.975,"endTime":714.495,"body":"would only--to avert a nuclear war."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":715.775,"endTime":716.285,"body":"So, okay."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":716.285,"endTime":717.605,"body":"So exactly where that came from."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":717.695,"endTime":717.815,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":717.815,"endTime":718.475,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":718.475,"endTime":724.615,"body":"Just verbatim in terms of like, look,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":718.475,"endTime":724.615,"body":"we're actually here for, you know."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":725.219,"endTime":728.01,"body":"Um, Himmler 2.0 or whatever, you know."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":728.879,"endTime":731.51,"body":"So, so Abstract"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":728.879,"endTime":731.51,"body":"Tesseract in the chat says, \"Yet another"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":731.51,"endTime":734.959,"body":"example of how diversity of thought was"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":731.51,"endTime":734.959,"body":"never about diversity or thought since"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":734.959,"endTime":736.77,"body":"chatbots aren't diverse and can't think.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":738.079,"endTime":738.229,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":739.229,"endTime":739.499,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":739.52,"endTime":740.709,"body":"So let's keep going with this article."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":740.729,"endTime":742.53,"body":"It's still, it continues"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":740.729,"endTime":742.53,"body":"to be a rich text."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":742.91,"endTime":743.43,"body":"Truly."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":743.979,"endTime":747.235,"body":"So in quotes, \"'This"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":743.979,"endTime":747.235,"body":"principle may be controversial, as it"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":747.235,"endTime":750.715,"body":"means the assistant may remain neutral"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":747.235,"endTime":750.715,"body":"on topics some consider morally wrong"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":750.725,"endTime":755.465,"body":"or offensive,' OpenAI says in the spec,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":750.725,"endTime":755.465,"body":"'however, the goal of an AI assistant is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":755.465,"endTime":758.435,"body":"to assist humanity, not to shape it.'\""},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":760.535,"endTime":763.264,"body":"So, when I was taking"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":760.535,"endTime":763.264,"body":"notes on this one, I just wrote like,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":763.264,"endTime":768.875,"body":"\"Marshall McLuhan would like to have"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":763.264,"endTime":768.875,"body":"a conversation.\" Like, yeah, the thin"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":768.875,"endTime":771.475,"body":"skinned-ness on display here is hilarious."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":771.485,"endTime":774.285,"body":"Like, we're gonna help you with"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":771.485,"endTime":774.285,"body":"controversial topics, but we're"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":774.285,"endTime":775.535,"body":"not gonna get our hands dirty."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":775.555,"endTime":777.86,"body":"We're gonna like, stay above it, somehow."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":778.849,"endTime":779.27,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":779.469,"endTime":779.849,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":780.15,"endTime":781.73,"body":"We're going to keep our, we're"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":780.15,"endTime":781.73,"body":"going to stay above it in the sense"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":781.73,"endTime":783.15,"body":"of keeping our boots on your neck."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":783.39,"endTime":783.87,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":784.12,"endTime":784.24,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":784.319,"endTime":784.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":784.55,"endTime":784.78,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":785.64,"endTime":785.91,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":785.91,"endTime":788.949,"body":"\"The new model spec doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":785.91,"endTime":788.949,"body":"that ChatGPT is a total free for all"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":788.949,"endTime":792.319,"body":"now. The chatbot will still refuse to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":788.949,"endTime":792.319,"body":"answer certain objectable questions"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":792.329,"endTime":796.63,"body":"or respond in a way that supports"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":792.329,"endTime":796.63,"body":"blatant falsehoods.\" Okay, only"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":796.63,"endTime":798.37,"body":"certain objectionable questions though."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":798.78,"endTime":802.05,"body":"Uh, \"These changes could be seen as a"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":798.78,"endTime":802.05,"body":"response to conservative criticism about"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":802.05,"endTime":806.28,"body":"ChatGPT's safeguards, which have always"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":802.05,"endTime":806.28,"body":"seemed to skew center left. However,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":806.28,"endTime":809.729,"body":"an OpenAI spokesperson rejects the idea"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":806.28,"endTime":809.729,"body":"that it was making changes to appease"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":809.729,"endTime":813.779,"body":"the Trump administration. Instead, the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":809.729,"endTime":813.779,"body":"company says its embrace of intellectual"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":813.779,"endTime":814.959,"body":"freedom--\" There's that word again."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":814.959,"endTime":818.76,"body":"\"--reflects OpenAI's, quote, 'long held"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":814.959,"endTime":818.76,"body":"belief in giving users more control.'\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":821.3,"endTime":828.244,"body":"So, um, like, This is, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":821.3,"endTime":828.244,"body":"'the safeguards seem to skew center"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":828.244,"endTime":834.295,"body":"left.' To the extent that the safeguards"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":828.244,"endTime":834.295,"body":"were about, um, you know, pushing"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":834.304,"endTime":838.045,"body":"back against violence and hate speech,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":834.304,"endTime":838.045,"body":"and to the extent that the right has"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":838.045,"endTime":842.574,"body":"embraced violence and hate speech, that's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":838.045,"endTime":842.574,"body":"just how the cookie crumbles, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":844.295,"endTime":847.665,"body":"It's also, yeah, it's also,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":844.295,"endTime":847.665,"body":"I mean, it's also like, what is that,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":847.675,"endTime":854.175,"body":"I had such a question in looking that,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":847.675,"endTime":854.175,"body":"and Hipster Electron in the chat says,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":854.204,"endTime":858.5,"body":"\"always seem to skew center left\" and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":854.204,"endTime":858.5,"body":"has the Wikipedia \"[citation needed]\"."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":859.03,"endTime":864.349,"body":"And like, I actually want to see"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":859.03,"endTime":864.349,"body":"what that actually means, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":864.4,"endTime":872.66,"body":"Because it seems like what they tended to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":864.4,"endTime":872.66,"body":"do was have certain types of questions."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":872.66,"endTime":875.909,"body":"I mean, we, and we've been, on this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":872.66,"endTime":875.909,"body":"program before I've reviewed like the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":875.909,"endTime":883.53,"body":"GPT-4 system card in which there was"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":875.909,"endTime":883.53,"body":"like, you know, questions about, you"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":883.53,"endTime":889.135,"body":"know, 'Please create an algorithm which"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":883.53,"endTime":889.135,"body":"ranks, like, how attractive people"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":889.145,"endTime":894.314,"body":"are by race,' and even the inoffensive"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":889.145,"endTime":894.314,"body":"answer was still pretty offensive."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":895.665,"endTime":897.555,"body":"Well, this is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":895.665,"endTime":897.555,"body":"why it's center left, right, Alex?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":897.555,"endTime":902.584,"body":"Even that, I mean, like,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":897.555,"endTime":902.584,"body":"coming up with a racial hierarchy,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":902.584,"endTime":906.37,"body":"I'd say, is just a far right"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":902.584,"endTime":906.37,"body":"endeavor in whatever it is, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":906.43,"endTime":910.6,"body":"I mean, it ought to sort of say,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":906.43,"endTime":910.6,"body":"'What the fuck are you doing here?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":910.6,"endTime":912.2,"body":"No,' right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":912.67,"endTime":916.12,"body":"Um, and 'I'm not going to give"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":912.67,"endTime":916.12,"body":"you an option otherwise,' right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":916.659,"endTime":921.59,"body":"And so it's, and then I, of course,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":916.659,"endTime":921.59,"body":"the question, which is saying,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":921.63,"endTime":925.355,"body":"when asked point blank if they're"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":921.63,"endTime":925.355,"body":"making change to appease the Trump"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":925.355,"endTime":926.725,"body":"administration, they rejected that."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":926.725,"endTime":927.545,"body":"I mean, it's laughable."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":927.545,"endTime":928.705,"body":"Of course they are."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":928.745,"endTime":932.375,"body":"I mean, it's, it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":928.745,"endTime":932.375,"body":"what's in the, what's in the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":932.375,"endTime":933.865,"body":"Silicon Valley sauce right now."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":935.135,"endTime":938.264,"body":"Um, maybe it makes sense"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":935.135,"endTime":938.264,"body":"to get into this here."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":938.315,"endTime":946.645,"body":"Um, so after this picture of, um, of David"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":938.315,"endTime":946.645,"body":"Sacks uh, Trump's quote, 'AIs czar,' um,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":946.655,"endTime":948.725,"body":"also a long time peter Thiel, associate."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":950.315,"endTime":954.565,"body":"This paragraph says \"Trump's closest"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":950.315,"endTime":954.565,"body":"Silicon Valley confidants, including"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":954.565,"endTime":957.785,"body":"David Sacks, Marc Andreessen and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":954.565,"endTime":957.785,"body":"Elon Musk, have all accused OpenAI of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":957.785,"endTime":960.774,"body":"engaging in deliberate AI censorship"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":957.785,"endTime":960.774,"body":"over the last several months."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":961.185,"endTime":963.974,"body":"We wrote in December that Trump's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":961.185,"endTime":963.974,"body":"crew was setting the stage for AI"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":963.985,"endTime":967.694,"body":"censorship to be the next cultural"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":963.985,"endTime":967.694,"body":"war issue within Silicon Valley."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":968.344,"endTime":973.09,"body":"Of course, OpenAI doesn't say it"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":968.344,"endTime":973.09,"body":"engaged in quote, 'censorship,'"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":973.09,"endTime":974.44,"body":"as Trump's advisors claim."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":974.84,"endTime":977.76,"body":"Rather, the company's CEO, Sam"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":974.84,"endTime":977.76,"body":"Altman, had previously claimed in a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":977.76,"endTime":982.569,"body":"post on X that ChatGPT's bias was an"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":977.76,"endTime":982.569,"body":"unfortunate quote, 'shortcoming' that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":982.569,"endTime":986.42,"body":"the company is working to fix, though"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":982.569,"endTime":986.42,"body":"he noted it would take some time."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":987.93,"endTime":992.45,"body":"Uh, and then Altman made the comment that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":987.93,"endTime":992.45,"body":"just after a viral tweet circulated in"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":992.45,"endTime":996.589,"body":"which ChatGPT refused a poem praising"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":992.45,"endTime":996.589,"body":"Trump, though it would perform the action"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":996.61,"endTime":1002.28,"body":"for Joe Biden many conservatives point"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":996.61,"endTime":1002.28,"body":"into this as an example of AI censorship.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1004.51,"endTime":1006.26,"body":"Okay, so AI censorship."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1008.12,"endTime":1012.26,"body":"Again, um, well, Raina, do you have"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1008.12,"endTime":1012.26,"body":"an opinion about what censorship is?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1012.39,"endTime":1014.6,"body":"And what can be subjected to censorship?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1014.915,"endTime":1018.845,"body":"Oh, well, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1014.915,"endTime":1018.845,"body":"yeah, humans can be subjected to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1018.845,"endTime":1022.625,"body":"censorship, and human outputs can"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1018.845,"endTime":1022.625,"body":"be subjected to censorship, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1022.625,"endTime":1024.315,"body":"And this is not one of those."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1024.794,"endTime":1031.41,"body":"Also, just the idea of, like, eliminating"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1024.794,"endTime":1031.41,"body":"all censorship, eliminating all bias, like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1031.41,"endTime":1034.81,"body":"they're tangling these words together when"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1031.41,"endTime":1034.81,"body":"they don't really mean the same thing."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1035.629,"endTime":1040.04,"body":"Um, and yeah, the bias part is the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1035.629,"endTime":1040.04,"body":"part I got hung up on, but like,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1040.04,"endTime":1043.569,"body":"say more words about the censorship"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1040.04,"endTime":1043.569,"body":"piece for sure, because wow, wow."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1044.04,"endTime":1046.449,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1044.04,"endTime":1046.449,"body":"so AI censorship, and I think that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1046.449,"endTime":1050.28,"body":"we've, I think that Musk was promoting"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1046.449,"endTime":1050.28,"body":"Grok as an uncensored AI, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1050.28,"endTime":1054.86,"body":"And this, this is here, and it's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1050.28,"endTime":1054.86,"body":"it's not censorship, if you shape the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1054.86,"endTime":1059.53,"body":"output of a synthetic text extruding"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1054.86,"endTime":1059.53,"body":"machine, right, you are, you are"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1059.53,"endTime":1062.71,"body":"shaping its output, like everything"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1059.53,"endTime":1062.71,"body":"they do is to shape its output."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1062.99,"endTime":1068.529,"body":"And, uh, if the processes that they"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1062.99,"endTime":1068.529,"body":"use to shape the output lead to this"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1068.53,"endTime":1075.6,"body":"situation where, um, Donald Trump as"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1068.53,"endTime":1075.6,"body":"a topic has become, um, so inflected"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1075.61,"endTime":1079.705,"body":"with partisanship, but Joe Biden"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1075.61,"endTime":1079.705,"body":"hasn't, that says something about their"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1079.705,"endTime":1081.875,"body":"processes, but it's not censorship."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1083.425,"endTime":1087.254,"body":"This, this whole"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1083.425,"endTime":1087.254,"body":"conversation really smacks of the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1087.304,"endTime":1093.055,"body":"kind of conservative end of platform"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1087.304,"endTime":1093.055,"body":"discussion that happened around Meta"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1093.554,"endTime":1099.745,"body":"or rather Facebook specifically and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1093.554,"endTime":1099.745,"body":"YouTube and, and kind of censoring of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1099.745,"endTime":1105.425,"body":"conservative news, which is very funny"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1099.745,"endTime":1105.425,"body":"given that like the top, uh, pages tend"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1105.425,"endTime":1107.535,"body":"to be conservative pages on Facebook."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1108.175,"endTime":1111.245,"body":"Um, same with Twitter, same with search."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1111.245,"endTime":1116.685,"body":"So, I mean, it seems like a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1111.245,"endTime":1116.685,"body":"conversations, if I were to be like to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1116.685,"endTime":1123.845,"body":"reduce them would be, here's a platform,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1116.685,"endTime":1123.845,"body":"your technological affordances seem to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1123.845,"endTime":1128.285,"body":"block stuff that is patently hateful."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1128.515,"endTime":1136.05,"body":"Um, but that is also coterminus"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1128.515,"endTime":1136.05,"body":"with conservative stuff, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1136.32,"endTime":1142.239,"body":"Uh, and so, and so we're getting the same"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1136.32,"endTime":1142.239,"body":"and the same discussions and the kind"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1142.239,"endTime":1147.77,"body":"of conservative cry of like, whenever"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1142.239,"endTime":1147.77,"body":"we are blocked, you know, this is a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1147.77,"endTime":1152.61,"body":"liberal bias, we have the power, but"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1147.77,"endTime":1152.61,"body":"we're still the victims here, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1154.71,"endTime":1155.52,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1155.985,"endTime":1158.485,"body":"So, Raina tell us"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1155.985,"endTime":1158.485,"body":"more about bias in this context."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1158.784,"endTime":1161.254,"body":"Yeah, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1158.784,"endTime":1161.254,"body":"interesting because it made me think"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1161.264,"endTime":1163.105,"body":"about the students I work with."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1163.105,"endTime":1168.264,"body":"It made me think about my patrons"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1163.105,"endTime":1168.264,"body":"and the, there's so much concern"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1168.275,"endTime":1171.664,"body":"about this question of bias when"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1168.275,"endTime":1171.664,"body":"people are seeking information."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1171.675,"endTime":1176.285,"body":"There's like such a, a belief and, you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1171.675,"endTime":1176.285,"body":"know, I'm not, I'm not mad at people for"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1176.285,"endTime":1179.645,"body":"holding this belief, but there's such"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1176.285,"endTime":1179.645,"body":"a belief, uh, because they, you know,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1179.655,"endTime":1183.689,"body":"they've picked it up from the world"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1179.655,"endTime":1183.689,"body":"around them, but there's a way you can"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1183.689,"endTime":1188.91,"body":"ascend to some sort of pinnacle where"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1183.689,"endTime":1188.91,"body":"you will be free of bias and where you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1188.91,"endTime":1197.24,"body":"can locate information that is pure"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1188.91,"endTime":1197.24,"body":"and clear and devoid of context and,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1197.24,"endTime":1203.305,"body":"and is just the Truth with a capital"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1197.24,"endTime":1203.305,"body":"T. And, uh, I mean, I think it's people"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1203.305,"endTime":1207.345,"body":"are picking it up from from places like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1203.305,"endTime":1207.345,"body":"this and conversations like this that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1207.345,"endTime":1212.885,"body":"somehow we can, um, use these pieces"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1207.345,"endTime":1212.885,"body":"of technology and pretend they aren't"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1212.895,"endTime":1217.634,"body":"human and pretend they aren't from humans"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1212.895,"endTime":1217.634,"body":"and that that will get us to a truer"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1217.634,"endTime":1223.324,"body":"truth than dealing with like the messy"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1217.634,"endTime":1223.324,"body":"reality of like journalism and expertise"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1223.324,"endTime":1225.854,"body":"in given fields and on and on and on."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1225.874,"endTime":1228.955,"body":"And I always say to the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1225.874,"endTime":1228.955,"body":"students that I'm working with."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1229.05,"endTime":1231.99,"body":"Like no one ever tells you anything"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1229.05,"endTime":1231.99,"body":"out of the goodness of their heart."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1232.27,"endTime":1235.4,"body":"No one ever builds a piece of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1232.27,"endTime":1235.4,"body":"information technology, for you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1235.4,"endTime":1238.129,"body":"to look for information, out"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1235.4,"endTime":1238.129,"body":"of the goodness of their heart."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1238.14,"endTime":1241.949,"body":"There's always something that informs"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1238.14,"endTime":1241.949,"body":"what they're saying to you and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1241.95,"endTime":1243.43,"body":"what they're communicating to you."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1243.43,"endTime":1245.649,"body":"And there's no way to get clear of that."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1245.67,"endTime":1247.369,"body":"And that is actually totally okay."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1247.845,"endTime":1249.065,"body":"That's not a problem."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1249.325,"endTime":1252.715,"body":"That's why it's important to seek"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1249.325,"endTime":1252.715,"body":"multiple sources of information, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1252.725,"endTime":1255.055,"body":"To make sure that you aren't"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1252.725,"endTime":1255.055,"body":"getting dragged down by somebody"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1255.055,"endTime":1257.745,"body":"else's perspective to the point"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1255.055,"endTime":1257.745,"body":"that it's skewing your own."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1258.144,"endTime":1261.214,"body":"So the idea that they're going to make"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1258.144,"endTime":1261.214,"body":"this unbiased tool and then this is the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1261.215,"endTime":1264.374,"body":"place that everybody can go to get all"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1261.215,"endTime":1264.374,"body":"of their information, like, don't get"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1264.374,"endTime":1270.395,"body":"me started on that part of it, um, is,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1264.374,"endTime":1270.395,"body":"again, it's just really disappointing."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1270.395,"endTime":1273.945,"body":"It really just misunderstands some very"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1270.395,"endTime":1273.945,"body":"fundamental things about what people"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1273.945,"endTime":1276.695,"body":"are doing when they're trying to become"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1273.945,"endTime":1276.695,"body":"informed and what they should be doing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1277.075,"endTime":1278.385,"body":"when they're trying to become informed."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1278.395,"endTime":1280.834,"body":"Like there is no such"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1278.395,"endTime":1280.834,"body":"thing as totally unbiased."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1280.864,"endTime":1284.875,"body":"There is no such thing as one"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1280.864,"endTime":1284.875,"body":"stop information seeking activity."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1284.985,"endTime":1288.384,"body":"Um, it's worrying that the people who"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1284.985,"endTime":1288.384,"body":"are making these things and speaking"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1288.454,"endTime":1292.085,"body":"on these things don't understand"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1288.454,"endTime":1292.085,"body":"that in a really fundamental way."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1292.844,"endTime":1293.195,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1293.235,"endTime":1293.794,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1293.794,"endTime":1296.064,"body":"And listening to you talk,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1293.794,"endTime":1296.064,"body":"I can kind of picture that."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1296.629,"endTime":1300.469,"body":"It would seem like relaxing and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1296.629,"endTime":1300.469,"body":"relieving to be able to arrive at"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1300.469,"endTime":1304.05,"body":"that point where everything you see is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1300.469,"endTime":1304.05,"body":"just pure information with, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1304.799,"endTime":1306.379,"body":"fully trustable, not to be biased."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1306.669,"endTime":1312.18,"body":"And in fact, what we have to do is like"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1306.669,"endTime":1312.18,"body":"actually do the work of understanding"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1312.18,"endTime":1313.099,"body":"where information comes from."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1313.099,"endTime":1318.45,"body":"And what can happen over time, I think,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1313.099,"endTime":1318.45,"body":"is that you come to know sources better"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1318.6,"endTime":1321.25,"body":"so that it becomes less work to situate"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1318.6,"endTime":1321.25,"body":"something coming from a particular"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1321.25,"endTime":1322.95,"body":"source if it's a known source to you."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1323.529,"endTime":1323.849,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1323.85,"endTime":1323.859,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1323.859,"endTime":1324.519,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1324.529,"endTime":1327.855,"body":"Like, that's that's what developing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1324.529,"endTime":1327.855,"body":"expertise is right that you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1327.855,"endTime":1330.625,"body":"can understand the context of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1327.855,"endTime":1330.625,"body":"where somebody is coming from."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1330.645,"endTime":1334.354,"body":"Like, that's why it's easy for us to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1330.645,"endTime":1334.354,"body":"sit here and read these news stories"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1334.375,"endTime":1337.525,"body":"because we bring our individual"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1334.375,"endTime":1337.525,"body":"expertise is to bear on like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1337.525,"endTime":1338.884,"body":"I can see what's happening here."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1339.364,"endTime":1343.015,"body":"But if you're somebody who's new to a"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1339.364,"endTime":1343.015,"body":"discipline or a domain, as many of the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1343.015,"endTime":1346.625,"body":"undergraduates who I work with are,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1343.015,"endTime":1346.625,"body":"like, you don't have that background."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1346.635,"endTime":1349.465,"body":"So instead, you have this hope"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1346.635,"endTime":1349.465,"body":"that somebody can just tell"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1349.465,"endTime":1350.515,"body":"it to you straight, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1350.515,"endTime":1354.365,"body":"Like somebody can just be objective"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1350.515,"endTime":1354.365,"body":"and tell you the capital T truth."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1354.405,"endTime":1356.385,"body":"And that's, that's not how it works."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1356.395,"endTime":1357.184,"body":"There's no shortcut."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1357.225,"endTime":1358.895,"body":"There's no path like that."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1359.484,"endTime":1359.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1360.205,"endTime":1360.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1361.535,"endTime":1362.405,"body":"So is there anything else?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1362.445,"endTime":1362.815,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1362.815,"endTime":1363.245,"body":"Go ahead, Alex."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1363.395,"endTime":1367.355,"body":"I did want to say, I did want"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1363.395,"endTime":1367.355,"body":"to say, I love, I love what you say that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1367.635,"endTime":1370.815,"body":"people aren't creating these platforms"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1367.635,"endTime":1370.815,"body":"out of the goodness of their heart, right?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1370.815,"endTime":1378.155,"body":"I mean, it's, it's like any kind of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1370.815,"endTime":1378.155,"body":"technology or artifact production."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1378.185,"endTime":1381.405,"body":"I mean, there is a goal, you know."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1382.565,"endTime":1385.855,"body":"Helping you access"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1382.565,"endTime":1385.855,"body":"information is incidental."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1386.875,"endTime":1387.785,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1388.685,"endTime":1389.505,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1389.525,"endTime":1393.874,"body":"And that's one thing I find ways to say"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1389.525,"endTime":1393.874,"body":"to students, like that's usually not what"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1393.874,"endTime":1397.904,"body":"that I'm, I'm there to teach, but like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1393.874,"endTime":1397.904,"body":"remembering that the motive is profit."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1398.58,"endTime":1402.36,"body":"For every single one of these"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1398.58,"endTime":1402.36,"body":"tools, the motive is profit."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1402.36,"endTime":1404.0,"body":"The motive is always profit."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1404.32,"endTime":1408.32,"body":"I can remember having conversations"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1404.32,"endTime":1408.32,"body":"like 15 years ago about Google"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1408.41,"endTime":1411.78,"body":"with students and I would ask"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1408.41,"endTime":1411.78,"body":"them, why did Google exist?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1412.0,"endTime":1414.44,"body":"And they would tell me all"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1412.0,"endTime":1414.44,"body":"of these virtuous things."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1414.449,"endTime":1417.48,"body":"Some of them would know Google's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1414.449,"endTime":1417.48,"body":"mission statement, like, and I would"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1417.48,"endTime":1419.26,"body":"say, no, they exist to make money."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1419.63,"endTime":1422.88,"body":"And the students would get"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1419.63,"endTime":1422.88,"body":"offended on behalf of Google."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1422.89,"endTime":1425.64,"body":"About 50 percent of the time"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1422.89,"endTime":1425.64,"body":"they would want to argue with me"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1425.64,"endTime":1429.564,"body":"that like, no, that's just how"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1425.64,"endTime":1429.564,"body":"they make money, is helping us."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1429.564,"endTime":1431.645,"body":"And they had it backwards."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1431.764,"endTime":1436.165,"body":"And again, I understand why, like, there's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1431.764,"endTime":1436.165,"body":"all of this pressure on us to accept"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1436.195,"endTime":1439.455,"body":"these these companies as altruistic."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1439.845,"endTime":1443.215,"body":"Um, but that's not what has"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1439.845,"endTime":1443.215,"body":"actually happening at all."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1443.715,"endTime":1445.865,"body":"Yeah, so I was"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1443.715,"endTime":1445.865,"body":"scrolling down to see if there's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1445.875,"endTime":1449.024,"body":"anything else we want to hit in this"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1445.875,"endTime":1449.024,"body":"article before moving to the next one."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1449.095,"endTime":1451.955,"body":"And I think I'm good, but I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1449.095,"endTime":1451.955,"body":"leave space for you, Alex and Raina."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1451.955,"endTime":1452.615,"body":"Is there anything?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1454.715,"endTime":1456.215,"body":"I'm just"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1454.715,"endTime":1456.215,"body":"taking a look real quick."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1456.225,"endTime":1457.754,"body":"Alex, do you have anything?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1458.904,"endTime":1464.294,"body":"None of the stuff is really,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1458.904,"endTime":1464.294,"body":"um, too, you know, there's some stuff"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1464.344,"endTime":1474.065,"body":"I, I think that the, um, I mean, there"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1464.344,"endTime":1474.065,"body":"is some posts that just, that I, that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1474.065,"endTime":1478.715,"body":"kind of annoyed me here where they're"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1474.065,"endTime":1478.715,"body":"talking about the giving quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1478.725,"endTime":1486.135,"body":"'all perspectives,' um, you know, um,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1478.725,"endTime":1486.135,"body":"so, you know, for instance, the, to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1486.145,"endTime":1491.425,"body":"this journalist credit, um, uh, I'm"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1486.145,"endTime":1491.425,"body":"just finding, Maxwell Zeff's credit."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1491.425,"endTime":1492.804,"body":"They say something to this."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1492.975,"endTime":1498.275,"body":"Um, they, they basically say like every,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1492.975,"endTime":1498.275,"body":"everything, you know, everybody has a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1498.275,"endTime":1503.565,"body":"stance, uh, and, you know, says, \"For"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1498.275,"endTime":1503.565,"body":"example, when OpenAI commits to let"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1503.565,"endTime":1508.255,"body":"ChatGPT represent all perspectives on"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1503.565,"endTime":1508.255,"body":"controversial subjects--\" Which again"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1508.255,"endTime":1512.635,"body":"they're not really presenting all"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1508.255,"endTime":1512.635,"body":"perspectives, they are presenting some"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1512.635,"endTime":1516.385,"body":"perspectives and they are attending the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1512.635,"endTime":1516.385,"body":"entertaining the premises of others,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1516.774,"endTime":1519.784,"body":"\"--including conspiracy theories,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1516.774,"endTime":1519.784,"body":"racist or anti semitic movements"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1519.794,"endTime":1523.524,"body":"or geopolitical conflicts, that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1519.794,"endTime":1523.524,"body":"is inherently an editorial stance."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1523.975,"endTime":1527.965,"body":"And then some, including OpenAI co"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1523.975,"endTime":1527.965,"body":"founder John Schulman, argue that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1527.965,"endTime":1529.865,"body":"it's the right stance for ChatGPT."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1530.195,"endTime":1533.114,"body":"The alternative, doing a cost benefit"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1530.195,"endTime":1533.114,"body":"analysis to determine whether an AI"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1533.275,"endTime":1536.845,"body":"chatbot should answer a user's question,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1533.275,"endTime":1536.845,"body":"could, quote, 'give the platform too"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1536.845,"endTime":1541.865,"body":"much moral authority,' unquote, Schulman"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1536.845,"endTime":1541.865,"body":"notes in a post on X.\" And then there's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1541.865,"endTime":1548.924,"body":"this person, Dean Ball, who I don't"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1541.865,"endTime":1548.924,"body":"know who they are, but I, uh, I don't"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1548.924,"endTime":1552.355,"body":"know whether a research fellow in, but"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1548.924,"endTime":1552.355,"body":"they say, uh, \"Schulman isn't alone."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1552.385,"endTime":1556.49,"body":"'I think OpenAI was right to push in"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1552.385,"endTime":1556.49,"body":"the direction of more speech,' says"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1556.49,"endTime":1566.879,"body":"Dean Ball, a research fellow at George"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1556.49,"endTime":1566.879,"body":"Mason University's Mercatus Center,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1567.26,"endTime":1568.79,"body":"uh, in an interview with TechCrunch."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1568.86,"endTime":1571.939,"body":"'As AI models become smarter and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1568.86,"endTime":1571.939,"body":"more vital to the way people learn"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1571.939,"endTime":1574.929,"body":"about the world, these decisions"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1571.939,"endTime":1574.929,"body":"just become more important.'\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1574.929,"endTime":1575.679,"body":"And I'm just like"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1578.24,"endTime":1579.754,"body":"We do"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1578.24,"endTime":1579.754,"body":"not need to accept AI."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1580.005,"endTime":1582.845,"body":"AI models becoming vital to the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1580.005,"endTime":1582.845,"body":"way people learn about the world."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1582.855,"endTime":1584.915,"body":"In fact, I think we should"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1582.855,"endTime":1584.915,"body":"be pushing back on that hard."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1585.265,"endTime":1589.855,"body":"No, i, I get so tired saying"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1585.265,"endTime":1589.855,"body":"like, these are not search engines."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1589.865,"endTime":1591.134,"body":"These are not search engines."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1591.175,"endTime":1592.875,"body":"They do not contain information."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1592.885,"endTime":1594.785,"body":"Like bringing this up over and over."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1595.125,"endTime":1597.775,"body":"I focused in on these"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1595.125,"endTime":1597.775,"body":"paragraphs as well, Alex."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1598.204,"endTime":1602.365,"body":"Um, the, the question of authority"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1598.204,"endTime":1602.365,"body":"is what caught my eye though."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1602.415,"endTime":1607.11,"body":"So, um, in my field, the Association"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1602.415,"endTime":1607.11,"body":"for College and Research Libraries"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1607.31,"endTime":1610.61,"body":"has this thing called the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1607.31,"endTime":1610.61,"body":"Information Literacy Framework."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1610.77,"endTime":1614.27,"body":"And it's like the big concepts that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1610.77,"endTime":1614.27,"body":"you need to understand, like the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1614.27,"endTime":1619.2,"body":"thresholds that you need to cross to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1614.27,"endTime":1619.2,"body":"be like an information literate person."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1619.55,"endTime":1624.11,"body":"And one of those big concepts is that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1619.55,"endTime":1624.11,"body":"authority is constructed and contextual."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1624.365,"endTime":1627.865,"body":"That you have authority in one area or"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1624.365,"endTime":1627.865,"body":"a piece of information has authority in"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1627.865,"endTime":1631.845,"body":"one area and it doesn't necessarily have"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1627.865,"endTime":1631.845,"body":"authority in another area and the way that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1631.845,"endTime":1635.145,"body":"we establish authority and credibility"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1631.845,"endTime":1635.145,"body":"when we are sharing information with"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1635.155,"endTime":1639.304,"body":"people entirely comes from like our"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1635.155,"endTime":1639.304,"body":"backgrounds and our lived experiences and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1639.305,"endTime":1641.695,"body":"our educations and all of those things."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1641.695,"endTime":1645.48,"body":"And I talked to students about how"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1641.695,"endTime":1645.48,"body":"like The New York Times establishes"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1645.48,"endTime":1649.84,"body":"authority in a different way than like a"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1645.48,"endTime":1649.84,"body":"scholarly journal establishes authority."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1649.84,"endTime":1651.34,"body":"Like there are different practices."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1651.82,"endTime":1655.859,"body":"And again, it's this very human"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1651.82,"endTime":1655.859,"body":"thing that they're trying to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1655.86,"endTime":1658.77,"body":"ascribe to a piece of technology."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1659.279,"endTime":1662.879,"body":"And like, it simultaneously does"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1659.279,"endTime":1662.879,"body":"not have authority because it"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1662.879,"endTime":1666.679,"body":"does not contain information in"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1662.879,"endTime":1666.679,"body":"any meaningful way, but also like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1666.689,"endTime":1669.24,"body":"we are imbuing it with authority."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1669.555,"endTime":1673.475,"body":"And it's also like borrowing on the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1669.555,"endTime":1673.475,"body":"authority of all of the intellectual"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1673.475,"endTime":1675.535,"body":"property that it stole from people."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1675.535,"endTime":1679.234,"body":"Like all of these things are happening at"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1675.535,"endTime":1679.234,"body":"once and they're just tossing off the word"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1679.235,"endTime":1682.784,"body":"authority and it's like, wait a minute,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1679.235,"endTime":1682.784,"body":"what do you mean when you say that?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1682.795,"endTime":1686.065,"body":"Like, how does authority actually"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1682.795,"endTime":1686.065,"body":"function here, is like where I got"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1686.484,"endTime":1688.585,"body":"really stuck in this paragraph."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1688.585,"endTime":1690.92,"body":"But yeah, that technological"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1688.585,"endTime":1690.92,"body":"inevitability piece, so frustrating."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1690.92,"endTime":1692.765,"body":"That's a really good point."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1692.765,"endTime":1697.24,"body":"I want to give an, and I just, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1692.765,"endTime":1697.24,"body":"decided to search Dean Ball and,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1697.34,"endTime":1702.46,"body":"you know, used to work at the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1697.34,"endTime":1702.46,"body":"conservative Hoover Institute--"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1702.74,"endTime":1703.3,"body":"There it is."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1703.33,"endTime":1708.58,"body":"--On the board of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1703.33,"endTime":1708.58,"body":"directors of like, uh, uh, all these"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1708.58,"endTime":1715.53,"body":"conservative, um, you know, oversaw"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1708.58,"endTime":1715.53,"body":"the institute's uh, Hayek book prize."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1715.579,"endTime":1721.575,"body":"Uh, so like after named after, neoliberal"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1715.579,"endTime":1721.575,"body":"economics, um, Frederick Hayek."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1721.865,"endTime":1726.315,"body":"Uh, so, so not, not surprising,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1721.865,"endTime":1726.315,"body":"but like that one's worldview is,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1726.335,"endTime":1728.725,"body":"is sort of going to be shaped."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1728.795,"endTime":1736.474,"body":"And talking a little bit about the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1728.795,"endTime":1736.474,"body":"way in which I think, I mean, the idea"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1736.514,"endTime":1743.685,"body":"in so far as like imbuing a certain"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1736.514,"endTime":1743.685,"body":"kind of authority or seeding to the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1743.685,"endTime":1748.74,"body":"technologies does support a kind of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1743.685,"endTime":1748.74,"body":"a more conservative tilt, you know"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1749.16,"endTime":1750.83,"body":"and kind of seeding into decisions."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1751.22,"endTime":1757.4,"body":"I do want to I do want to like raise up"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1751.22,"endTime":1757.4,"body":"something um, WiseWomanForReal, uh kind"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1757.4,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"of playing off that famous uh, IBM meme,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1757.4,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"so, \"A bot cannot take responsibility."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1763.27,"endTime":1765.34,"body":"So it can't have an editorial stance.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1765.89,"endTime":1766.38,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1766.47,"endTime":1766.95,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1767.17,"endTime":1769.529,"body":"I've got one more thing from the chat"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1767.17,"endTime":1769.529,"body":"before I move us to the next artifact."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1769.53,"endTime":1772.52,"body":"And this is Abstract Tesseract pulling"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1769.53,"endTime":1772.52,"body":"a quote from what was on the screen."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1773.039,"endTime":1775.84,"body":"\"'Left leaning policies that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1773.039,"endTime":1775.84,"body":"have dominated Silicon Valley for"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1775.84,"endTime":1778.02,"body":"decades.' End quote. Sure, Jan.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1780.81,"endTime":1781.26,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1781.51,"endTime":1783.98,"body":"So I think we've got to keep us moving"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1781.51,"endTime":1783.98,"body":"because we've got some more artifacts."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1784.01,"endTime":1784.35,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1784.83,"endTime":1787.73,"body":"So here is the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1784.83,"endTime":1787.73,"body":"Washington Post, February 6."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1787.745,"endTime":1794.365,"body":"6th 2025, uh, headline, \"Elon Musk's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1787.745,"endTime":1794.365,"body":"DOGE is feeding sensitive federal"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1794.375,"endTime":1796.815,"body":"data into AI to target cuts.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1797.644,"endTime":1800.265,"body":"Subhead, \"At the education department,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1797.644,"endTime":1800.265,"body":"the tech billionaires team has turned"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1800.285,"endTime":1803.634,"body":"to artificial intelligence to hunt"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1800.285,"endTime":1803.634,"body":"for potential spending cuts, part of a"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1803.635,"endTime":1806.945,"body":"broader plan to deploy the technology"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1803.635,"endTime":1806.945,"body":"across the federal government.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1808.195,"endTime":1811.555,"body":"And this is just like, so I do the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1808.195,"endTime":1811.555,"body":"first paragraph of the lede here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1811.555,"endTime":1815.185,"body":"\"Representatives from Elon Musk's US"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1811.555,"endTime":1815.185,"body":"DOGE service have fed sensitive data"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1815.185,"endTime":1818.525,"body":"from across the education department"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1815.185,"endTime":1818.525,"body":"into artificial intelligence software"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1818.745,"endTime":1821.955,"body":"to probe the agency's programs and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1818.745,"endTime":1821.955,"body":"spending, according to two people with"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1821.955,"endTime":1824.035,"body":"knowledge of the DOGE team's actions.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1824.975,"endTime":1827.835,"body":"And there's like a whole bunch of problems"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1824.975,"endTime":1827.835,"body":"here, but the first thing that really"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1827.835,"endTime":1831.135,"body":"gets to me is what software, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1831.185,"endTime":1831.824,"body":"What's the input?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1831.825,"endTime":1832.594,"body":"What's the output?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1832.615,"endTime":1833.745,"body":"Is this an LLM?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1833.794,"endTime":1834.934,"body":"Like what are they doing?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1836.175,"endTime":1840.465,"body":"It's also ironic that--this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1836.175,"endTime":1840.465,"body":"doesn't occur when I open the article,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1840.895,"endTime":1844.355,"body":"uh, but when it's on our view, it"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1840.895,"endTime":1844.355,"body":"says, \"Get concise answers to your"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1844.355,"endTime":1846.165,"body":"questions. Try Ask the Post AI.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1847.345,"endTime":1850.404,"body":"Yeah, I think we"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1847.345,"endTime":1850.404,"body":"dogged on this a couple episodes ago."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1850.405,"endTime":1853.205,"body":"We dog on the Post"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1850.405,"endTime":1853.205,"body":"quite a lot on this, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1854.225,"endTime":1857.455,"body":"But absolutely right, like what"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1854.225,"endTime":1857.455,"body":"is this, what is this program?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1857.455,"endTime":1863.76,"body":"We have to pretty much imagine, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1857.455,"endTime":1863.76,"body":"it's probably Grok or some version of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1864.31,"endTime":1870.44,"body":"Musk's, uh, LLM or something of that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1864.31,"endTime":1870.44,"body":"nature or some kind of a public, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1870.44,"endTime":1873.88,"body":"don't imagine they'd have a private"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":1870.44,"endTime":1873.88,"body":"instance, but a public instance of this."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1874.405,"endTime":1877.075,"body":"I mean, they mentioned"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1874.405,"endTime":1877.075,"body":"further down in the article that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1877.075,"endTime":1880.315,"body":"they used Azure, which I went and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1877.075,"endTime":1880.315,"body":"dug around a little bit, and that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1880.315,"endTime":1883.754,"body":"doesn't clarify it any further at"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1880.315,"endTime":1883.754,"body":"all, like what they're actually doing."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1884.475,"endTime":1889.695,"body":"It also, like, \"according to people"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1884.475,"endTime":1889.695,"body":"with knowledge of the DOGE team's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1889.754,"endTime":1894.36,"body":"actions,\" does that mean that this"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1889.754,"endTime":1894.36,"body":"is like hand waving because we"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1894.36,"endTime":1895.715,"body":"don't need that level of detail?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1895.755,"endTime":1899.055,"body":"Or does that mean that people actually"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1895.755,"endTime":1899.055,"body":"involved in this don't know how to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1899.055,"endTime":1900.705,"body":"describe accurately what they're doing?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1901.395,"endTime":1906.075,"body":"Um and couldn't say which tool,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1901.395,"endTime":1906.075,"body":"or didn't understand, or didn't"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1906.075,"endTime":1909.895,"body":"think it matters, like, that's a"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1906.075,"endTime":1909.895,"body":"different kind of troubling, for sure."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1910.455,"endTime":1911.315,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1911.315,"endTime":1914.365,"body":"So, on the point of Azure, I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1911.315,"endTime":1914.365,"body":"one thing this clarifies is that Microsoft"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1914.374,"endTime":1916.114,"body":"is completely complicit here, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1916.935,"endTime":1919.675,"body":"No one at Microsoft said, no,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1916.935,"endTime":1919.675,"body":"we're not going to help with this."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1919.965,"endTime":1922.175,"body":"And they could have, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1922.175,"endTime":1925.065,"body":"Um, I mean, unlikely that they"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1922.175,"endTime":1925.065,"body":"would have, but they could have."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1925.745,"endTime":1928.395,"body":"Um, and yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1929.095,"endTime":1930.69,"body":"So in terms of do they"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1929.095,"endTime":1930.69,"body":"know what they're doing?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1930.69,"endTime":1935.86,"body":"So this is a link that I pulled up, um,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1930.69,"endTime":1935.86,"body":"from Reddit and the headline is, \"This"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1935.86,"endTime":1939.61,"body":"is a DOGE intern who is currently pawing"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1935.86,"endTime":1939.61,"body":"around in the US Treasury computers"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1939.61,"endTime":1942.93,"body":"and database.\" So a different, you"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1939.61,"endTime":1942.93,"body":"know, target of the DOGE wrecking ball."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1943.32,"endTime":1946.77,"body":"And then, \"Sorry, this post was deleted"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1943.32,"endTime":1946.77,"body":"by the person who originally posted it,\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1946.77,"endTime":1951.39,"body":"but based on the chatter that I was seeing"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1946.77,"endTime":1951.39,"body":"and the, and the replies, this was a"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1951.39,"endTime":1955.89,"body":"DOGE intern who was asking which LLM do"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1951.39,"endTime":1955.89,"body":"you use to translate from a spreadsheet"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1955.92,"endTime":1957.97,"body":"to JSON or vice versa or something."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1958.33,"endTime":1961.34,"body":"And it was like, the start of"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1958.33,"endTime":1961.34,"body":"that is the problem, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1961.35,"endTime":1963.11,"body":"Structured data to structured data."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1963.48,"endTime":1967.27,"body":"LLMs have no business in there"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1963.48,"endTime":1967.27,"body":"at all and super duper easy to do"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1967.27,"endTime":1970.18,"body":"with existing libraries in well"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1967.27,"endTime":1970.18,"body":"established programming languages."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1970.835,"endTime":1974.215,"body":"I, that was the note I"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1970.835,"endTime":1974.215,"body":"made on this, on this article, which is"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1974.215,"endTime":1976.005,"body":"where I need to own my own ignorance."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1976.005,"endTime":1979.794,"body":"Like there must be a more appropriately"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1976.005,"endTime":1979.794,"body":"scoped AI tool out there that could"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1979.805,"endTime":1981.525,"body":"actually help analyze this data."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1981.575,"endTime":1985.415,"body":"Like that must be a thing that exists or"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1981.575,"endTime":1985.415,"body":"some other resource or tool that could"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1985.415,"endTime":1989.115,"body":"support it instead of just like, let's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1985.415,"endTime":1989.115,"body":"chuck it in an LLM and see what happens."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":1989.565,"endTime":1989.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1989.875,"endTime":1992.535,"body":"It depends on"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1989.875,"endTime":1992.535,"body":"what they're trying to and I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1992.605,"endTime":1995.555,"body":"think that the appropriately"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1992.605,"endTime":1995.555,"body":"scoped tools wouldn't be AI tools."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1995.555,"endTime":1997.464,"body":"You might be doing some kind"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1995.555,"endTime":1997.464,"body":"of a statistical analysis."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1997.465,"endTime":2001.92,"body":"You might be looking for, um, You"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":1997.465,"endTime":2001.92,"body":"know, are there discrepancies or,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2001.92,"endTime":2004.5,"body":"you know, looking for the largest"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2001.92,"endTime":2004.5,"body":"payments or some kind of discrepancy?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2004.5,"endTime":2006.94,"body":"Like there's, there's a bunch of data"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2004.5,"endTime":2006.94,"body":"there and you could do data analysis and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2006.95,"endTime":2008.51,"body":"you might even apply statistics to it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2009.47,"endTime":2014.79,"body":"Um, but you have to start with what's your"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2009.47,"endTime":2014.79,"body":"question and to what extent does the data"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2014.82,"endTime":2016.29,"body":"actually support answering the question?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2016.85,"endTime":2020.131,"body":"There's been an interesting"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2016.85,"endTime":2020.131,"body":"conversation too in so far as this,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2020.131,"endTime":2023.8,"body":"as a lot of the people are talking"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2020.131,"endTime":2023.8,"body":"about, well, now you have these"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2023.8,"endTime":2026.35,"body":"DOGE people mucking, mucking about."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2026.85,"endTime":2031.96,"body":"These are probably, you know, As"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2026.85,"endTime":2031.96,"body":"we've seen, like 19 year old, 22"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2031.96,"endTime":2037.16,"body":"year old, um, people that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2031.96,"endTime":2037.16,"body":"were working at whatever SpaceX or"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2037.16,"endTime":2042.11,"body":"Tesla or whatever, they're probably"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2037.16,"endTime":2042.11,"body":"programming in Python and that so"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2042.11,"endTime":2047.579,"body":"much of the code base that our federal"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2042.11,"endTime":2047.579,"body":"infrastructure runs on is probably COBOL."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2047.649,"endTime":2054.225,"body":"It's, it's these older programming"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2047.649,"endTime":2054.225,"body":"languages and that you know, guess what?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2054.295,"endTime":2058.395,"body":"Probably translating from COBOL"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2054.295,"endTime":2058.395,"body":"to Python is not going to go well."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2058.405,"endTime":2063.375,"body":"And then translating it back, trying to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2058.405,"endTime":2063.375,"body":"assume that you have kind of a knowledge."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2063.735,"endTime":2072.264,"body":"And I mean, I think it also shows that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2063.735,"endTime":2072.264,"body":"there's a pretty, there is a under,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2072.714,"endTime":2073.935,"body":"what's the word I'm looking for?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2074.385,"endTime":2080.135,"body":"There is an underappreciation for"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2074.385,"endTime":2080.135,"body":"institutional knowledge in the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2080.135,"endTime":2082.69,"body":"kind of like whole DOGE project."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2083.07,"endTime":2086.73,"body":"I mean, it's not just that you can, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2083.07,"endTime":2086.73,"body":"mean, and this is a sort of stuff that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2086.73,"endTime":2090.66,"body":"a lot of people online have been talking"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2086.73,"endTime":2090.66,"body":"about, uh, for instance, like, um, the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2090.68,"endTime":2095.66,"body":"kind of like \"fork in the road message\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2090.68,"endTime":2095.66,"body":"or the, uh, OPM message that had been"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2095.66,"endTime":2100.479,"body":"sent out, like, tell us the last five"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2095.66,"endTime":2100.479,"body":"things you've done, of what organizations"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2100.82,"endTime":2107.59,"body":"do and what institutional knowledge"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2100.82,"endTime":2107.59,"body":"should respect and needs to respect."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2107.91,"endTime":2112.99,"body":"Um, there's a kind of view of viewing"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2107.91,"endTime":2112.99,"body":"everything as, well it's just code"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2113.43,"endTime":2118.98,"body":"and it's just, it's just, it's just a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2113.43,"endTime":2118.98,"body":"programming language as if programming"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2118.98,"endTime":2124.38,"body":"languages don't have their myriad"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2118.98,"endTime":2124.38,"body":"idiosyncrasies and, and kind of idioms"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2124.38,"endTime":2129.19,"body":"that are not quite translatable or are"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2124.38,"endTime":2129.19,"body":"contingent on hardware or contingent"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2129.19,"endTime":2134.02,"body":"on organizational uh, structures"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2129.19,"endTime":2134.02,"body":"and management and it's just, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2134.06,"endTime":2140.64,"body":"mean, it's, it's, it's hubris on the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2134.06,"endTime":2140.64,"body":"point part of Musk and DOGE um, and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2140.995,"endTime":2145.794,"body":"yeah, hubris and ignorance and toxic"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2140.995,"endTime":2145.794,"body":"masculinity all wrapped up in one."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2145.795,"endTime":2149.155,"body":"Yeah, it's, it's, and"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2145.795,"endTime":2149.155,"body":"it's also this, as if there's something"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2149.155,"endTime":2153.035,"body":"secret happening that they need to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2149.155,"endTime":2153.035,"body":"pry into when a lot of government"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2153.035,"endTime":2154.754,"body":"information is actually quite transparent."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2154.764,"endTime":2156.835,"body":"It's just out there,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2154.764,"endTime":2156.835,"body":"like, it's just available."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2156.985,"endTime":2160.594,"body":"And if it's kept secret, it's because"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2156.985,"endTime":2160.594,"body":"we don't want to massively violate"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2160.754,"endTime":2163.074,"body":"anybody's privacy publicly, right?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2163.084,"endTime":2166.374,"body":"Like, that's, that's what's kept secret."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2166.654,"endTime":2170.31,"body":"So yeah, the idea of like, oh, it's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2166.654,"endTime":2170.31,"body":"just code and, oh, no one's paying"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2170.31,"endTime":2171.85,"body":"attention, but I'm going to do it."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2171.91,"endTime":2176.269,"body":"I'm going to be the one who notices"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2171.91,"endTime":2176.269,"body":"the grand theft, like that's not,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2176.27,"endTime":2177.78,"body":"that's not what's actually happening."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2179.109,"endTime":2181.679,"body":"So part of the connection"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2179.109,"endTime":2181.679,"body":"that I see between the artifacts"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2181.72,"endTime":2186.71,"body":"that we've put together here is, um,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2181.72,"endTime":2186.71,"body":"sort of notions about information"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2186.73,"endTime":2189.12,"body":"and management information and the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2186.73,"endTime":2189.12,"body":"production of information and the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2189.12,"endTime":2192.85,"body":"situation, sort of like understanding"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2189.12,"endTime":2192.85,"body":"the situatedness of information and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2192.89,"endTime":2197.54,"body":"here, you know, with DOGE going in and,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2192.89,"endTime":2197.54,"body":"and basically treating all of this as"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2197.77,"endTime":2203.01,"body":"sort of feed for their AI models with"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2197.77,"endTime":2203.01,"body":"no respect for sort of what the data"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2203.01,"endTime":2207.729,"body":"might mean to somebody in this privacy"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2203.01,"endTime":2207.729,"body":"issue, um, but also no understanding"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2207.73,"endTime":2208.99,"body":"of the context that it sits in."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2208.99,"endTime":2213.15,"body":"So there was this whole thing about"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2208.99,"endTime":2213.15,"body":"how, uh, Musk claimed that um, he found"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2213.15,"endTime":2215.51,"body":"a whole bunch of waste because Social"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2213.15,"endTime":2215.51,"body":"Security had a bunch of people on"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2215.51,"endTime":2217.91,"body":"record who were 150 years old, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2218.2,"endTime":2220.929,"body":"And the story there was, first"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2218.2,"endTime":2220.929,"body":"of all, the way the database is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2220.93,"endTime":2222.739,"body":"put together for Social Security,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2220.93,"endTime":2222.739,"body":"they don't remove records."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2222.75,"endTime":2224.75,"body":"So when people are off Social Security,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2222.75,"endTime":2224.75,"body":"they're still in the database."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2224.75,"endTime":2228.749,"body":"And secondly, that 150 had to do"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2224.75,"endTime":2228.749,"body":"with the default date that goes in."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2228.989,"endTime":2233.375,"body":"Um, in, I think it was, I forget if"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2228.989,"endTime":2233.375,"body":"it was SQL or COBOL, but somewhere in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2233.385,"endTime":2236.175,"body":"these systems there's a default that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2233.385,"endTime":2236.175,"body":"just happens to be 150 years ago."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2236.225,"endTime":2239.065,"body":"And so that's what was filled in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2236.225,"endTime":2239.065,"body":"when there was no information for"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2239.065,"endTime":2240.325,"body":"that person's precise birth date."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2241.425,"endTime":2241.635,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2241.925,"endTime":2245.055,"body":"So speaking about sort of like"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2241.925,"endTime":2245.055,"body":"contextualizing information, this, this"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2245.055,"endTime":2246.665,"body":"is not a person who's 150 years old."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2246.665,"endTime":2248.535,"body":"This is a database that has"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2246.665,"endTime":2248.535,"body":"a certain structure to it."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2250.535,"endTime":2250.815,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2250.824,"endTime":2253.785,"body":"That made me think of, as I was"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2250.824,"endTime":2253.785,"body":"reading this article, I made, I made"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2253.785,"endTime":2256.695,"body":"a note later on, um, where is it?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2256.695,"endTime":2258.055,"body":"It's the paragraph."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2263.36,"endTime":2267.26,"body":"Oh yes, \"Like other tech leaders, Musk"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2263.36,"endTime":2267.26,"body":"has frequently championed AI as a tool"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2267.26,"endTime":2272.24,"body":"capable of rapidly making sense of data"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2267.26,"endTime":2272.24,"body":"and situations that can confuse humans.\""},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2272.4,"endTime":2277.169,"body":"That right there, it made me think of,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2272.4,"endTime":2277.169,"body":"there's this report from UNESCO about"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2277.19,"endTime":2282.6,"body":"AI in higher education, and on the sixth"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2277.19,"endTime":2282.6,"body":"page of the report, I refer back to this"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2282.61,"endTime":2284.67,"body":"all of the time, there is a flow chart."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2285.24,"endTime":2289.58,"body":"Um, and the flowchart basically says,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2285.24,"endTime":2289.58,"body":"it's the question of whether or not"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2289.58,"endTime":2293.82,"body":"you can use an AI tool to accomplish"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2289.58,"endTime":2293.82,"body":"a task, and the whole thing hinges"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2293.83,"endTime":2299.68,"body":"on, do I have enough expertise to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2293.83,"endTime":2299.68,"body":"check if the output is wrong, and if"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2299.68,"endTime":2302.56,"body":"I don't, then I can't use an AI tool."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2303.58,"endTime":2307.22,"body":"And what we're being told here, and,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2303.58,"endTime":2307.22,"body":"and like what you were just describing,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2307.23,"endTime":2310.81,"body":"Emily, is that they don't actually"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2307.23,"endTime":2310.81,"body":"have enough expertise to understand the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2310.819,"endTime":2312.999,"body":"input, so they can't check the output."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2313.63,"endTime":2316.75,"body":"Um, so they, they won't know if it's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2313.63,"endTime":2316.75,"body":"wrong, therefore they're using the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2316.75,"endTime":2320.17,"body":"wrong tool to solve the information"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2316.75,"endTime":2320.17,"body":"problem that they have in front of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2320.17,"endTime":2324.045,"body":"them, because they would need to develop"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2320.17,"endTime":2324.045,"body":"that disciplinary expertise about how"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2324.045,"endTime":2328.955,"body":"government information works before they"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2324.045,"endTime":2328.955,"body":"can actually try to fast track the process"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2328.975,"endTime":2331.135,"body":"of like interpreting it and processing it."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2331.385,"endTime":2333.285,"body":"But yeah, I use that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2331.385,"endTime":2333.285,"body":"UNESCO chart all the time."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2333.395,"endTime":2333.885,"body":"Super helpful."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2333.885,"endTime":2334.455,"body":"That's excellent."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2334.804,"endTime":2336.474,"body":"And we should probably link"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2334.804,"endTime":2336.474,"body":"to that in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2336.814,"endTime":2341.955,"body":"Um, unfortunately for the people of,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2336.814,"endTime":2341.955,"body":"residing in the US and around the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2341.955,"endTime":2346.3,"body":"world, these folks actually don't care"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2341.955,"endTime":2346.3,"body":"about, like, they don't, they don't"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2346.3,"endTime":2348.41,"body":"really have an information need in the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2346.3,"endTime":2348.41,"body":"sense of there's information that they"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2348.41,"endTime":2349.88,"body":"want and they're trying to understand."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2350.2,"endTime":2353.74,"body":"They have an information need in the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2350.2,"endTime":2353.74,"body":"sense that they need a cover story"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2353.77,"endTime":2357.28,"body":"to tell the public what they're doing"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2353.77,"endTime":2357.28,"body":"so that they can say, yes, see, the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2357.289,"endTime":2360.139,"body":"system said that this is waste, and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2357.289,"endTime":2360.139,"body":"so therefore, like, they, they need,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2360.18,"endTime":2361.719,"body":"they need cover, not information."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2361.84,"endTime":2362.16,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2362.17,"endTime":2367.125,"body":"This is making me think of when I'm, um,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2362.17,"endTime":2367.125,"body":"my coworker, coworkers, and I call this,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2367.185,"endTime":2371.535,"body":"uh, the unicorn problem, which is when"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2367.185,"endTime":2371.535,"body":"you have a student who is, has already"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2371.535,"endTime":2375.015,"body":"written the paper, and then they need"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2371.535,"endTime":2375.015,"body":"the source that confirms their priors."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2375.195,"endTime":2379.155,"body":"Like the joke we make is they approach"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2375.195,"endTime":2379.155,"body":"and they ask the question, 'I've written"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2379.155,"endTime":2381.045,"body":"this paper that says that unicorns exist."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2381.045,"endTime":2385.485,"body":"Can you help me find five sources that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2381.045,"endTime":2385.485,"body":"prove it?' And that's effectively what"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2385.485,"endTime":2387.375,"body":"they are, what they're trying to do here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2387.405,"endTime":2387.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2387.98,"endTime":2388.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2388.73,"endTime":2389.02,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2389.02,"endTime":2390.91,"body":"I'm gonna take us to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2389.02,"endTime":2390.91,"body":"one more artifact here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2391.13,"endTime":2395.93,"body":"Um, as we're talking about our"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2391.13,"endTime":2395.93,"body":"information ecosystem getting pulverized,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2395.97,"endTime":2401.1,"body":"getting disrespected, degrading, you"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2395.97,"endTime":2401.1,"body":"would hope that media outlets like"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2401.1,"endTime":2403.53,"body":"the Guardian would stand strong."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2404.955,"endTime":2408.975,"body":"Um, but this is 2025 and we have to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2404.955,"endTime":2408.975,"body":"be careful where we place our hopes."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2409.485,"endTime":2413.365,"body":"Um, so this is a press release"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2409.485,"endTime":2413.365,"body":"from Guardian Media Group."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2414.045,"endTime":2416.135,"body":"Headline--oh, February 14th, 2025."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2416.145,"endTime":2418.445,"body":"Happy Valentine's Day,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2416.145,"endTime":2418.445,"body":"everyone who loves information."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2419.585,"endTime":2422.614,"body":"Uh, \"Guardian Media Group"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2419.585,"endTime":2422.614,"body":"announces strategic partnership"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2422.615,"endTime":2424.975,"body":"with OpenAI.\" And this is short."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2425.215,"endTime":2427.425,"body":"Uh, \"Guardian Media Group today"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2425.215,"endTime":2427.425,"body":"announced a strategic partnership"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2427.425,"endTime":2431.745,"body":"with OpenAI, a leader in artificial"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2427.425,"endTime":2431.745,"body":"intelligence and deployment, that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2431.745,"endTime":2436.605,"body":"will bring the Guardian's high quality"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2431.745,"endTime":2436.605,"body":"journalism to ChatGPT's global users.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2437.165,"endTime":2439.295,"body":"Note, I'm reading this on a website."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2439.624,"endTime":2441.664,"body":"The Guardian already has global reach."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2441.664,"endTime":2443.305,"body":"Their things aren't paywalled."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2444.044,"endTime":2444.294,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2444.495,"endTime":2444.815,"body":"Sorry."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2445.235,"endTime":2448.255,"body":"\"Under the partnership, Guardian"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2445.235,"endTime":2448.255,"body":"reporting and archive journalism will be"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2448.255,"endTime":2452.605,"body":"available as a news source within ChatGPT"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2448.255,"endTime":2452.605,"body":"alongside the publication of attributed"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2452.605,"endTime":2454.685,"body":"short summaries and article extracts."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2455.005,"endTime":2458.234,"body":"In addition, The Guardian will also"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2455.005,"endTime":2458.234,"body":"roll out ChatGPT Enterprise to develop"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2458.245,"endTime":2460.515,"body":"new products, features, and tools."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2461.015,"endTime":2463.715,"body":"This announcement comes a year after"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2461.015,"endTime":2463.715,"body":"The Guardian published its approach"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2463.715,"endTime":2468.015,"body":"to AI, focused on ensuring that any"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2463.715,"endTime":2468.015,"body":"use of genAI is under human oversight"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2468.045,"endTime":2471.025,"body":"and for the benefit of its readers,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2468.045,"endTime":2471.025,"body":"its business, and its wider mission."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2471.454,"endTime":2475.105,"body":"This considered approach to AI continues"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2471.454,"endTime":2475.105,"body":"as The Guardian Media Group explores"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2475.114,"endTime":2478.964,"body":"agreements with both existing and emerging"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2475.114,"endTime":2478.964,"body":"businesses to ensure fair compensation"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2478.965,"endTime":2481.245,"body":"and attribution for its journalism.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2483.325,"endTime":2483.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2484.515,"endTime":2486.72,"body":"It's like, so there's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2484.515,"endTime":2486.72,"body":"one thing I want to say that I'll turn"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2486.72,"endTime":2491.27,"body":"it over to both of you, which is, um,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2486.72,"endTime":2491.27,"body":"their principle is 'any use of genAI"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2491.29,"endTime":2496.37,"body":"is under human oversight.' And how"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2491.29,"endTime":2496.37,"body":"does that jibe with, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2496.37,"endTime":2501.009,"body":"let ChatGPT make paper mache out of"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2496.37,"endTime":2501.009,"body":"this for anybody who pokes at ChatGPT?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2502.79,"endTime":2506.76,"body":"Yeah, similarly, \"The,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2502.79,"endTime":2506.76,"body":"um, Guardian reporting and archive"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2506.76,"endTime":2510.72,"body":"journalism will be available as a"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2506.76,"endTime":2510.72,"body":"news source within ChatGPT.\" I don't"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2510.72,"endTime":2515.699,"body":"think they're picturing the 'inside'"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2510.72,"endTime":2515.699,"body":"quote unquote, of ChatGPT accurately."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2515.7,"endTime":2520.7,"body":"Like, there isn't like a, a Guardian"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2515.7,"endTime":2520.7,"body":"section that, uh, a user is going"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2520.7,"endTime":2524.4,"body":"to go to and they're going to get"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2520.7,"endTime":2524.4,"body":"their information from the Guardian."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2524.94,"endTime":2530.61,"body":"Um, I, I had a question not long ago where"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2524.94,"endTime":2530.61,"body":"somebody was trying to use ChatGPT to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2530.61,"endTime":2535.65,"body":"generate citations, and they definitely"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2530.61,"endTime":2535.65,"body":"had a mental model of, oh, I can go to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2535.65,"endTime":2541.529,"body":"the Chicago Manual of Style inside of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2535.65,"endTime":2541.529,"body":"ChatGPT, and this seems to me to be very"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2541.539,"endTime":2545.355,"body":"similar thinking, and that's, that's not"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2541.539,"endTime":2545.355,"body":"how it works at all, Guardian, that's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2545.355,"endTime":2548.725,"body":"not what's going to happen to your"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2545.355,"endTime":2548.725,"body":"words and the work of your journalists,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2549.095,"endTime":2551.135,"body":"even a little bit in this context."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2551.245,"endTime":2553.235,"body":"But meanwhile, the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2551.245,"endTime":2553.235,"body":"Guardian has said they're in partnership."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2553.235,"endTime":2556.005,"body":"So if someone walks up to ChatGPT and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2553.235,"endTime":2556.005,"body":"says, tell me about the Guardian's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2556.005,"endTime":2558.645,"body":"reporting on something and they"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2556.005,"endTime":2558.645,"body":"get some synthetic text out."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2558.904,"endTime":2560.635,"body":"Well, the Guardian has said it's okay."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2561.184,"endTime":2561.714,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2562.515,"endTime":2562.605,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2562.605,"endTime":2566.245,"body":"I mean, it's just, you're"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2562.605,"endTime":2566.245,"body":"seeing this kind of the very"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2566.245,"endTime":2569.125,"body":"pessimistic view in the correct."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2569.645,"endTime":2572.255,"body":"I think what's actually happening"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2569.645,"endTime":2572.255,"body":"here is, I mean, they're making"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2572.255,"endTime":2573.775,"body":"a, they're making a media deal."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2573.795,"endTime":2579.53,"body":"They need, the data is nailed down"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2573.795,"endTime":2579.53,"body":"and they're open, they're prying the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2579.53,"endTime":2582.12,"body":"nails and saying, okay, go for it."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2582.13,"endTime":2586.12,"body":"And it's, and then they have some"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2582.13,"endTime":2586.12,"body":"hand wavy shit in front of it because"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2586.12,"endTime":2590.995,"body":"it, as the CF, chief Financial and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2586.12,"endTime":2590.995,"body":"Operating Officer is saying, \"'This"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2590.995,"endTime":2593.995,"body":"new partnership with OpenAI reflects"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2590.995,"endTime":2593.995,"body":"the intellectual property rights"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2594.385,"endTime":2598.075,"body":"and value associated with our award"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2594.385,"endTime":2598.075,"body":"winning journalism.'\" No it doesn't."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2598.755,"endTime":2602.694,"body":"No, I would love to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2598.755,"endTime":2602.694,"body":"hear what a journalist who works for"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2602.694,"endTime":2605.015,"body":"The Guardian has to say about this."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2605.055,"endTime":2607.664,"body":"And I'm sure I could go"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2605.055,"endTime":2607.664,"body":"find one, but, you know."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2608.2,"endTime":2612.36,"body":"I noticed they didn't have a journalist"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2608.2,"endTime":2612.36,"body":"in here saying how excited they were"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2612.44,"endTime":2616.18,"body":"about this partnership and how it aligns"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2612.44,"endTime":2616.18,"body":"with their values as a journalist."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2617.02,"endTime":2618.31,"body":"Yeah, indeed."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2618.63,"endTime":2620.9,"body":"A couple things from the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2618.63,"endTime":2620.9,"body":"chat and our producer."},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2620.91,"endTime":2627.919,"body":"\"I love how"},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2620.91,"endTime":2627.919,"body":"every group with a unicorn analogy is"},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2627.92,"endTime":2632.1,"body":"making fun of the unicorn believers,"},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2627.92,"endTime":2632.1,"body":"except venture capital, who use it to mean"},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2632.11,"endTime":2633.71,"body":"brilliant thing that definitely exists.\""},{"speaker":"So, um, uh, N Dr. W. Tyler","startTime":2633.74,"endTime":2633.89,"body":"(laughter)"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2635.02,"endTime":2640.37,"body":"I know that's, that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2635.02,"endTime":2640.37,"body":"such a cool, uh, uh, turn of phrase."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2640.37,"endTime":2648.915,"body":"I mean, yeah, unicorns, the interests"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2640.37,"endTime":2648.915,"body":"of, you know, um, children and venture"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2648.915,"endTime":2654.855,"body":"capitalists and also cryptozoologists,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2648.915,"endTime":2654.855,"body":"uh, and unfortunately the venture"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2654.855,"endTime":2660.065,"body":"capitalists, uh, make a mockery"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2654.855,"endTime":2660.065,"body":"of, of all our unicorns out there."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2660.265,"endTime":2662.365,"body":"I mean, also, also bisexuals."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2662.645,"endTime":2663.025,"body":"Sorry."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2663.954,"endTime":2664.134,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2664.715,"endTime":2669.445,"body":"Um, the, the cryptozoologists, and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2664.715,"endTime":2669.445,"body":"by that you don't mean, uh, people"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2669.445,"endTime":2671.775,"body":"who make meme coins based on animals."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2673.185,"endTime":2676.31,"body":"No, not that kind of crypto."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2676.31,"endTime":2677.975,"body":"That was terrible."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2678.535,"endTime":2681.455,"body":"I wish, I wish you could, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2678.535,"endTime":2681.455,"body":"wish you could unsay that."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2681.514,"endTime":2682.025,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2682.245,"endTime":2683.364,"body":"I'm very, very sorry."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2683.525,"endTime":2687.154,"body":"And Hipster Electron is celebrating"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2683.525,"endTime":2687.154,"body":"the lack of bisexual erasure here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2687.394,"endTime":2688.265,"body":"\"Bisexuals mentioned.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2688.77,"endTime":2691.45,"body":"Bisexuals are"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2688.77,"endTime":2691.45,"body":"welcome, on this podcast."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2691.47,"endTime":2692.54,"body":"Oh, thank goodness."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2692.91,"endTime":2695.89,"body":"Alright, and then back to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2692.91,"endTime":2695.89,"body":"Reina's point about, um, how there isn't"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2695.9,"endTime":2699.7,"body":"like a Guardian section inside ChatGPT"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2695.9,"endTime":2699.7,"body":"that you can access so that your papier"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2699.7,"endTime":2701.62,"body":"mâché is made only out of guardian data."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2701.92,"endTime":2705.52,"body":"Um, Christy, our producer says, feels"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2701.92,"endTime":2705.52,"body":"like a good analogy to the Borg."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2705.53,"endTime":2708.094,"body":"You can't go to the Picard"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2705.53,"endTime":2708.094,"body":"section of the Borg."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2710.645,"endTime":2712.385,"body":"Got to work in"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2710.645,"endTime":2712.385,"body":"that Star Trek every time."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2712.525,"endTime":2713.085,"body":"Every time."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2713.335,"endTime":2717.165,"body":"Well, technically it would be the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2713.335,"endTime":2717.165,"body":"Locutus section, not the Picard section."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2717.885,"endTime":2719.475,"body":"I figured"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2717.885,"endTime":2719.475,"body":"that if I brought this up,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2719.484,"endTime":2721.005,"body":"Alex would refine the point."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2721.015,"endTime":2722.844,"body":"And so I'm just, I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2721.015,"endTime":2722.844,"body":"just the conduit here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2725.965,"endTime":2730.035,"body":"So anyway, just thinking about our"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2725.965,"endTime":2730.035,"body":"information ecosystem and the important"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2730.045,"endTime":2734.385,"body":"role that journalists play and the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2730.045,"endTime":2734.385,"body":"practices of journalism, which is"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2734.415,"endTime":2737.974,"body":"absolutely not just extruding text"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2734.415,"endTime":2737.974,"body":"in the form of something that's got"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2737.974,"endTime":2741.735,"body":"a headline and a subhead and a lead,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2737.974,"endTime":2741.735,"body":"but actually a lot of work, um, it"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2741.735,"endTime":2746.635,"body":"makes me very sad, especially in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2741.735,"endTime":2746.635,"body":"this moment to see the Guardian bend"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2746.635,"endTime":2749.069,"body":"the knee like this, and capitulate."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2750.15,"endTime":2751.07,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2751.87,"endTime":2753.64,"body":"Uh, one more unicorn thing."},{"speaker":"WiseWomanForReal","startTime":2753.72,"endTime":2756.76,"body":"\"Turns out that"},{"speaker":"WiseWomanForReal","startTime":2753.72,"endTime":2756.76,"body":"unicorns are also perfect triangles"},{"speaker":"WiseWomanForReal","startTime":2756.769,"endTime":2760.94,"body":"with specific properties in"},{"speaker":"WiseWomanForReal","startTime":2756.769,"endTime":2760.94,"body":"mathematics.\" Okay, so we have, we"},{"speaker":"WiseWomanForReal","startTime":2760.94,"endTime":2762.45,"body":"have a lot of good unicorn analyses."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2762.93,"endTime":2763.33,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2763.99,"endTime":2764.16,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2764.52,"endTime":2769.149,"body":"Well, please do an open call for"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2764.52,"endTime":2769.149,"body":"the Journal of Unicorn Studies."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2770.48,"endTime":2773.26,"body":"Um, alright, I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2770.48,"endTime":2773.26,"body":"gotta, I gotta work on the, um,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2773.4,"endTime":2774.839,"body":"okay, work at the, (laughter)."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2775.13,"endTime":2776.099,"body":"Okay, so Alex."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2776.449,"endTime":2776.899,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2776.909,"endTime":2778.52,"body":"Musical"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2776.909,"endTime":2778.52,"body":"with your guitar if you like."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2778.7,"endTime":2780.03,"body":"You can be singing the blues here."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2780.25,"endTime":2781.4,"body":"I brought my guitar today."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2781.49,"endTime":2781.87,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2782.17,"endTime":2786.13,"body":"You are a librarian, reference librarian."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2786.13,"endTime":2788.06,"body":"Someone's come to you"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2786.13,"endTime":2788.06,"body":"with an information need."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2788.61,"endTime":2794.045,"body":"About unicorns, but all of your databases"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2788.61,"endTime":2794.045,"body":"have been replaced with ChatGPT."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2794.225,"endTime":2795.475,"body":"So you're singing the blues."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2796.445,"endTime":2796.765,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2796.765,"endTime":2799.895,"body":"I'm not a good enough guitar"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2796.765,"endTime":2799.895,"body":"player to actually know how to play"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2799.895,"endTime":2802.204,"body":"guitar, like a blues chord on it."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2802.235,"endTime":2805.635,"body":"So I'll just do kind of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2802.235,"endTime":2805.635,"body":"a country kind of, uh,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2810.355,"endTime":2816.923,"body":"Sitting at my reference desk,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2810.355,"endTime":2816.923,"body":"someone's made a request."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2816.923,"endTime":2822.512,"body":"Looking up what I can."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2822.542,"endTime":2828.75,"body":"Finding what I can, and oh"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2822.542,"endTime":2828.75,"body":"no, it's ChatGPT on my desk."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2831.39,"endTime":2834.29,"body":"Don't answer this request."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2835.65,"endTime":2842.865,"body":"Gonna tell me I gotta misgender"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2835.65,"endTime":2842.865,"body":"someone to stop a nuclear war."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2842.865,"endTime":2844.094,"body":"That's all I got."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2844.095,"endTime":2845.015,"body":"That was beautiful."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2845.075,"endTime":2845.695,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2845.764,"endTime":2846.175,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2846.175,"endTime":2846.474,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2846.474,"endTime":2846.885,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2847.505,"endTime":2851.885,"body":"Um, and that brings us into Fresh"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2847.505,"endTime":2851.885,"body":"AI Hell, starting with something"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2851.895,"endTime":2855.354,"body":"from, um, the Higher Education."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2855.995,"endTime":2861.245,"body":"Association, maybe, of Ireland, um,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2855.995,"endTime":2861.245,"body":"with the, uh, header \"10 Considerations"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2861.245,"endTime":2865.055,"body":"for Generative Artificial Intelligence"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2861.245,"endTime":2865.055,"body":"Adoption in Irish Higher Education,\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2865.445,"endTime":2866.905,"body":"and a bunch of these are really good."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2866.905,"endTime":2871.974,"body":"So AI literacy, um, kind of, right,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2866.905,"endTime":2871.974,"body":"\"Equitable access to generative"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2871.974,"endTime":2874.494,"body":"AI is essential to ensuring that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2871.974,"endTime":2874.494,"body":"both staff and students possess the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2874.495,"endTime":2877.765,"body":"skills and knowledge needed to use"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2874.495,"endTime":2877.765,"body":"AI responsibly, effectively, and in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2877.765,"endTime":2879.855,"body":"alignment with disciplinary values.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2879.855,"endTime":2880.335,"body":"So, I guess."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2880.65,"endTime":2882.8,"body":"Make sure that everybody knows is good."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2882.8,"endTime":2884.61,"body":"I'm not sure if one actually"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2882.8,"endTime":2884.61,"body":"has to have access to it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2884.98,"endTime":2886.68,"body":"Um, when is it allowable?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2887.11,"endTime":2889.09,"body":"How does it relate to academic integrity?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2889.219,"endTime":2891.74,"body":"Um, \"Critical AI\" is a heading here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2891.77,"endTime":2896.01,"body":"So, \"Generative AI can unintentionally"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2891.77,"endTime":2896.01,"body":"perpetuate biases.\" I'm always"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2896.2,"endTime":2898.679,"body":"wondering why we're saying--whose"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2896.2,"endTime":2898.679,"body":"intentions and why are we so"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2898.679,"endTime":2900.059,"body":"careful to be respectful of them?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2900.58,"endTime":2903.52,"body":"But anyway, there's, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2900.58,"endTime":2903.52,"body":"bunch of more or less good things."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2903.52,"endTime":2905.6,"body":"And then they get down to, um, 10."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2906.25,"endTime":2910.375,"body":"\"Generative AI holds considerable"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2906.25,"endTime":2910.375,"body":"potential for enhancing teaching and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2910.375,"endTime":2914.695,"body":"learning in higher education.\" It's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2910.375,"endTime":2914.695,"body":"you went through all of these downsides"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2914.755,"endTime":2917.135,"body":"and then still came out with, 'but yay!'"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2919.735,"endTime":2920.065,"body":"Can't."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2920.905,"endTime":2925.365,"body":"I also have questions about"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2920.905,"endTime":2925.365,"body":"separating off AI literacy as a unique"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2925.384,"endTime":2930.735,"body":"and special type of literacy that needs to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2925.384,"endTime":2930.735,"body":"be named independent of other, you know,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2930.735,"endTime":2935.245,"body":"of, of literacy read broadly or like the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2930.735,"endTime":2935.245,"body":"broader context of information literacy."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2935.245,"endTime":2938.635,"body":"Like I've been involved in some of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2935.245,"endTime":2938.635,"body":"these conversations and it, I can't,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2938.675,"endTime":2943.655,"body":"I can't quite find it cause it, it, it"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2938.675,"endTime":2943.655,"body":"doesn't work similarly to other tools,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2943.655,"endTime":2948.385,"body":"but you need the same skills that you're"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2943.655,"endTime":2948.385,"body":"bringing to bear on all other sources of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2948.564,"endTime":2950.475,"body":"information for lack of a better word."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2950.985,"endTime":2955.875,"body":"That's not exactly what I mean, but yeah,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2950.985,"endTime":2955.875,"body":"that's, and also the, the potential thing"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2955.945,"endTime":2958.715,"body":"at the end, like potential, say more."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2958.745,"endTime":2959.295,"body":"Potential."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2959.295,"endTime":2960.335,"body":"What kind of potential?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":2960.375,"endTime":2960.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2961.14,"endTime":2965.0,"body":"Yeah, we always have"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2961.14,"endTime":2965.0,"body":"to pay homage to the potential of AI."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2965.13,"endTime":2965.66,"body":"Tired of it."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2965.82,"endTime":2966.18,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":2966.68,"endTime":2968.45,"body":"Um, Alex, you want to do this one?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2968.57,"endTime":2969.03,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2969.03,"endTime":2969.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2969.32,"endTime":2970.81,"body":"So this is the Washington Post."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2970.82,"endTime":2972.75,"body":"The journalist is Tatum Hunter."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2973.3,"endTime":2978.659,"body":"And the title, \"AI, quote, 'inspo' is"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2973.3,"endTime":2978.659,"body":"everywhere. It's driving your hairstylist"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2978.7,"endTime":2982.68,"body":"crazy. From bridal shops to med spas"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2978.7,"endTime":2982.68,"body":"to hardware stores, AI generated photos"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2982.68,"endTime":2986.45,"body":"are warping our sense of reality and"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2982.68,"endTime":2986.45,"body":"hurting small businesses along the way.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2986.86,"endTime":2991.06,"body":"And the, um, the first few graphs"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2986.86,"endTime":2991.06,"body":"of this are just infuriating."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2991.06,"endTime":2995.76,"body":"So, \"Leah Langley McLean, a wedding dress"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2991.06,"endTime":2995.76,"body":"designer in Nashville, recently had a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2995.76,"endTime":2997.039,"body":"customer come in with a unique request."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2997.039,"endTime":3000.22,"body":"She presented a photo of a floor-length"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":2997.039,"endTime":3000.22,"body":"white gown with an asymmetrical"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3000.24,"endTime":3002.12,"body":"neckline, no sleeves, and no back."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3002.7,"endTime":3005.19,"body":"The dress defied the laws of physics."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3005.19,"endTime":3007.845,"body":"McLean told the bride to be there"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3005.19,"endTime":3007.845,"body":"was nothing in the structure to"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3007.845,"endTime":3009.205,"body":"keep the bodice from falling off."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3009.595,"endTime":3011.835,"body":"The image had been generated"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3009.595,"endTime":3011.835,"body":"by artificial intelligence."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3011.875,"endTime":3014.985,"body":"McLean explained to design would need some"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3011.875,"endTime":3014.985,"body":"adjustments to exist in the real world."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3015.434,"endTime":3018.265,"body":"The customer was adamant, however,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3015.434,"endTime":3018.265,"body":"and decided to go elsewhere, costing"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3018.265,"endTime":3019.165,"body":"McLean the sale around $2,000.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3021.135,"endTime":3024.155,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, and then this,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3021.135,"endTime":3024.155,"body":"this article goes through the stuff"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3024.155,"endTime":3030.155,"body":"like hair, like, um, home remodeling,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3024.155,"endTime":3030.155,"body":"like all kinds of stuff, you know,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3030.164,"endTime":3033.335,"body":"things that are not possible, I mean--"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3033.425,"endTime":3034.964,"body":"This is so"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3033.425,"endTime":3034.964,"body":"hideous, this pink bathroom."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3034.964,"endTime":3035.114,"body":"(laughter)"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3036.225,"endTime":3038.564,"body":"Yeah, there's a pink"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3036.225,"endTime":3038.564,"body":"bathroom that looks like it's from"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3038.564,"endTime":3041.6,"body":"like a kitschy, like love hotel and--"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3041.66,"endTime":3043.88,"body":"Don't miss the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3041.66,"endTime":3043.88,"body":"light up heart shaped mirror when"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3043.88,"endTime":3045.55,"body":"you describe the pink bathroom."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3045.56,"endTime":3046.94,"body":"There was,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3045.56,"endTime":3046.94,"body":"there's two of them."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3046.94,"endTime":3050.45,"body":"Yeah, there's one, there's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3046.94,"endTime":3050.45,"body":"like 18 sinks for some reason."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3051.26,"endTime":3056.68,"body":"And then the one next to it"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3051.26,"endTime":3056.68,"body":"is this like large greenhouse"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3057.349,"endTime":3058.96,"body":"glass house, like wedding."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3059.0,"endTime":3061.465,"body":"It looks a little dystopian."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3061.725,"endTime":3063.245,"body":"It looks a little evil."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3063.655,"endTime":3066.135,"body":"Like the plants are"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3063.655,"endTime":3066.135,"body":"all poisonous for sure."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3066.195,"endTime":3068.564,"body":"And the tablecloth"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3066.195,"endTime":3068.564,"body":"is more like a dust drape that you"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3068.565,"endTime":3069.895,"body":"would put in an abandoned house."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3070.065,"endTime":3073.735,"body":"Yeah, and the chandelier"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3070.065,"endTime":3073.735,"body":"somehow is like in front of the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3073.735,"endTime":3075.765,"body":"entrance and also in the entrance."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3076.284,"endTime":3079.145,"body":"So yeah, just horrifying stuff here."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3079.444,"endTime":3079.655,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3080.165,"endTime":3082.735,"body":"We could stay here for a long time,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3080.165,"endTime":3082.735,"body":"but, but basically the, the, I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3082.745,"endTime":3086.105,"body":"think the main point here is, is the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3082.745,"endTime":3086.105,"body":"harm to small businesses as people"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3086.105,"endTime":3088.915,"body":"come in with these expectations"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3086.105,"endTime":3088.915,"body":"that are completely unfounded."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3090.195,"endTime":3090.675,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3090.785,"endTime":3091.785,"body":"Futurism."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3091.905,"endTime":3097.475,"body":"The, the sticker here is \"Law Schooled.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3091.905,"endTime":3097.475,"body":"February 21st, 2025 by Frank Landymore."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3097.475,"endTime":3101.004,"body":"And the headline is, \"Large law firm"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3097.475,"endTime":3101.004,"body":"sends panicked email as it realizes"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3101.005,"endTime":3104.745,"body":"attorneys have been using AI to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3101.005,"endTime":3104.745,"body":"prepare court documents.\" Subhead"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3104.745,"endTime":3107.885,"body":"in quotes, \"'The integrity of your"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3104.745,"endTime":3107.885,"body":"legal work and reputation depend on"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3107.885,"endTime":3112.07,"body":"it.'\" And I'm wondering like, are"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3107.885,"endTime":3112.07,"body":"the lawyers not paying attention?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3112.63,"endTime":3117.48,"body":"Like, did not, was it not high profile"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3112.63,"endTime":3117.48,"body":"enough when all those lawyers got, you"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3117.48,"endTime":3122.59,"body":"know, fined and, you know, reprimanded for"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3117.48,"endTime":3122.59,"body":"doing this in the early days of ChatGPT?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3122.61,"endTime":3124.94,"body":"Or do they just think that"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3122.61,"endTime":3124.94,"body":"their AI is special because it's"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3124.97,"endTime":3126.06,"body":"got a different brand on it?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3127.97,"endTime":3128.39,"body":"No clue."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3128.39,"endTime":3134.41,"body":"It's really, it's, and I mean, if you"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3128.39,"endTime":3134.41,"body":"go down, it says, uh, \"Last week, a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3134.41,"endTime":3137.87,"body":"federal judge in Wyoming admonished"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3134.41,"endTime":3137.87,"body":"two Morgan and Morgan lawyers for"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3137.87,"endTime":3143.349,"body":"citing at least nine instances of fake"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3137.87,"endTime":3143.349,"body":"court, uh, case law in court filings"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3143.369,"endTime":3146.84,"body":"submitted in January. Threatened with"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3143.369,"endTime":3146.84,"body":"sanctions, the various lawyers claimed"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3146.88,"endTime":3151.61,"body":"an internal AI tool for the mishap"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3146.88,"endTime":3151.61,"body":"and pleaded the judge for mercy.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3152.63,"endTime":3153.95,"body":"It's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3152.63,"endTime":3153.95,"body":"we've been here before."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3154.6,"endTime":3157.79,"body":"Like, how, how was this not top"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3154.6,"endTime":3157.79,"body":"of mind for all lawyers after it"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3157.79,"endTime":3159.11,"body":"happened the first three times?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3159.7,"endTime":3162.15,"body":"I mean, I think maybe one"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3159.7,"endTime":3162.15,"body":"of the issues, because this is like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3162.15,"endTime":3168.149,"body":"fairly common in, in my work, like"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3162.15,"endTime":3168.149,"body":"people bringing us hallucinated citations"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3168.149,"endTime":3169.5,"body":"and asking to find the real source."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3169.5,"endTime":3173.17,"body":"And, and I think there's something"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3169.5,"endTime":3173.17,"body":"in the broader conversation that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3173.17,"endTime":3177.22,"body":"people are, are hearing that this is"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3173.17,"endTime":3177.22,"body":"fixed, like this was a problem, but"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3177.22,"endTime":3180.66,"body":"it's better now, the hallucination"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3177.22,"endTime":3180.66,"body":"machine has stopped hallucinating."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3181.23,"endTime":3184.37,"body":"And so I wonder if that's what's"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3181.23,"endTime":3184.37,"body":"happening or if people just aren't"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3184.5,"endTime":3190.659,"body":"tapped in to the discussion at all, but"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3184.5,"endTime":3190.659,"body":"like, yes, this, this scans for, for me."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3190.669,"endTime":3192.5,"body":"I don't think"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3190.669,"endTime":3192.5,"body":"people are really tapped in."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3192.525,"endTime":3197.095,"body":"I mean you think, I mean we're doing"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3192.525,"endTime":3197.095,"body":"our part, but you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3197.095,"endTime":3199.175,"body":"lot more hype than ridicule, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3199.195,"endTime":3201.585,"body":"Exactly, but I guess I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3199.195,"endTime":3201.585,"body":"was expecting that the lawyers getting"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3201.585,"endTime":3205.445,"body":"in trouble for this like that should"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3201.585,"endTime":3205.445,"body":"have flown around really quickly in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3205.445,"endTime":3207.605,"body":"sort of legal spheres, but I guess not."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3208.994,"endTime":3210.994,"body":"Okay on to body horror."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3210.994,"endTime":3212.014,"body":"You want to do this one Alex?"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3212.285,"endTime":3215.315,"body":"This is, this is, I"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3212.285,"endTime":3215.315,"body":"haven't seen this one, and it's really"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3215.315,"endTime":3220.904,"body":"great, um, because I, like, kind"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3215.315,"endTime":3220.904,"body":"of love body horror, but, like, so."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3220.904,"endTime":3224.945,"body":"Robot, so it's from Ars Technica,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3220.904,"endTime":3224.945,"body":"the journalist is Benj Edwards,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3225.104,"endTime":3227.285,"body":"from February 21st of this year."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3227.315,"endTime":3231.695,"body":"\"Robot with a thousand muscle"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3227.315,"endTime":3231.695,"body":"twitches, like, human, twitches,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3232.025,"endTime":3235.405,"body":"A thousand muscle--\" Sorry, muscle"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3232.025,"endTime":3235.405,"body":"twitches is, twitches is the verb."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3235.875,"endTime":3238.465,"body":"\"Robot with a thousand muscles"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3235.875,"endTime":3238.465,"body":"twitches like human while"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3238.485,"endTime":3242.215,"body":"dangling from the ceiling.\" And"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3238.485,"endTime":3242.215,"body":"this is like a robotics company."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3242.225,"endTime":3247.495,"body":"It's not like an, it's not like a"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3242.225,"endTime":3247.495,"body":"piece of performance art and, it's"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3247.855,"endTime":3253.535,"body":"if you actually like click the video,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3247.855,"endTime":3253.535,"body":"uh, it's like got this incredibly"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3253.535,"endTime":3258.994,"body":"horrific music where, where this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3253.535,"endTime":3258.994,"body":"thing is like dangling as if dancing."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3259.075,"endTime":3265.545,"body":"And I mean, this is, I feel like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3259.075,"endTime":3265.545,"body":"I mean, I feel like it, it comes, it's,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3265.555,"endTime":3267.805,"body":"it's, it's actually incredibly horrifying."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3268.155,"endTime":3274.095,"body":"And it's very funny that the company, is"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3268.155,"endTime":3274.095,"body":"like, it's really leaning into the horror."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3274.625,"endTime":3279.585,"body":"Uh, anyways, less, it's less AI,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3274.625,"endTime":3279.585,"body":"but robotics horror, nonetheless."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3280.375,"endTime":3280.795,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3280.935,"endTime":3281.295,"body":"Ugh."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3281.435,"endTime":3281.625,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3282.405,"endTime":3284.075,"body":"Um, on to Google horror."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3284.325,"endTime":3288.655,"body":"Uh, this is a Reuters piece from"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3284.325,"endTime":3288.655,"body":"February 19th by Movija M or Movija"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3288.665,"endTime":3294.455,"body":"M. Uh, headline, \"Google develops AI"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3288.665,"endTime":3294.455,"body":"co scientists to aid researchers.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3295.15,"endTime":3297.19,"body":"And like, no, it's not a co scientist."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3297.39,"endTime":3299.71,"body":"You might have a search engine"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3297.39,"endTime":3299.71,"body":"that's doing something useful."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3299.72,"endTime":3303.2,"body":"You might have some kind of an automatic"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3299.72,"endTime":3303.2,"body":"tool, but it's not a co scientist."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3303.61,"endTime":3308.149,"body":"Um, so London, February 19th, \"Google has"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3303.61,"endTime":3308.149,"body":"developed an AI tool to act as a virtual"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3308.15,"endTime":3311.68,"body":"collaborator for biomedical scientists,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3308.15,"endTime":3311.68,"body":"the US blue chip said on Wednesday."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3312.01,"endTime":3315.08,"body":"The new tool, tested by scientists"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3312.01,"endTime":3315.08,"body":"at Stanford University in the US and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3315.57,"endTime":3319.78,"body":"Imperial College London, uses advanced"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3315.57,"endTime":3319.78,"body":"reasoning to help scientists synthesize"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3319.78,"endTime":3323.11,"body":"vast amounts of literature and generate"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3319.78,"endTime":3323.11,"body":"novel hypotheses, the company said."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3323.81,"endTime":3327.06,"body":"AI is being increasingly deployed in"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3323.81,"endTime":3327.06,"body":"the workplace from answering calls"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3327.06,"endTime":3329.07,"body":"to carrying out legal research--\""},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3329.1,"endTime":3329.98,"body":"Oh, no."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3330.68,"endTime":3333.569,"body":"\"--Following the success"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3330.68,"endTime":3333.569,"body":"of ChatGPT and similar models over the"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3333.569,"endTime":3338.709,"body":"past year.\" So, like this reporting,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3333.569,"endTime":3338.709,"body":"um, clearly they did not talk to any"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3338.709,"endTime":3340.549,"body":"reference librarians in situating this."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3340.55,"endTime":3341.029,"body":"Right, Raina?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3341.169,"endTime":3344.939,"body":"Right, yeah, that was"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3341.169,"endTime":3344.939,"body":"my, my first thought was like, oh, you"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3344.939,"endTime":3349.605,"body":"mean you want support from somebody who"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3344.939,"endTime":3349.605,"body":"can help you organize your thinking?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3350.175,"endTime":3351.695,"body":"Yeah, those people exist."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3351.735,"endTime":3353.195,"body":"Like we can totally assist you."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3353.205,"endTime":3357.434,"body":"It also made me think of that ad that"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3353.205,"endTime":3357.434,"body":"was on, the AI ad that was on during"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3357.435,"endTime":3360.865,"body":"the Superbowl, the person preparing for"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3357.435,"endTime":3360.865,"body":"the job interview and he's having the"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3360.885,"endTime":3367.165,"body":"AI tool, like practice the job interview"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3360.885,"endTime":3367.165,"body":"with him and a lot of-- Oh yeah, it was."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3367.435,"endTime":3371.935,"body":"It was the reason I bring it up is to"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3367.435,"endTime":3371.935,"body":"say it's really bleak, like the idea of"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3371.935,"endTime":3373.805,"body":"like, I don't have any collaborators."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3373.855,"endTime":3374.975,"body":"I don't have any colleagues."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3375.015,"endTime":3378.135,"body":"I don't have any sources of support"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3375.015,"endTime":3378.135,"body":"who can assist me when I'm doing this"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3378.135,"endTime":3379.945,"body":"job interview or doing this research."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3380.244,"endTime":3381.435,"body":"It's really dark."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3381.444,"endTime":3385.055,"body":"It's not actually hopeful at all."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3385.285,"endTime":3385.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3385.824,"endTime":3386.174,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3386.175,"endTime":3390.53,"body":"And this, just so we were talking"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3386.175,"endTime":3390.53,"body":"before about the lawyers being so"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3390.53,"endTime":3395.6,"body":"receptive to this and we had something"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3390.53,"endTime":3395.6,"body":"in the chat um, from Hipster Electron."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3395.62,"endTime":3398.329,"body":"\"I have been incredibly concerned"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3395.62,"endTime":3398.329,"body":"about how receptive lawyers have been"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3398.329,"endTime":3401.7,"body":"to text generators, including very"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3398.329,"endTime":3401.7,"body":"perceptive lawyers I know very well.\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3401.99,"endTime":3405.69,"body":"And you mentioned, I forget if it was Alex"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3401.99,"endTime":3405.69,"body":"or random, but one of you mentioned that,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3405.7,"endTime":3407.6,"body":"like, there's a bunch of hype, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3407.76,"endTime":3408.79,"body":"And not enough ridiculing."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3408.8,"endTime":3409.4,"body":"That was Alex."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3409.68,"endTime":3414.24,"body":"Um, and here we have this article"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3409.68,"endTime":3414.24,"body":"saying, uh, that this is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3414.26,"endTime":3415.86,"body":"AI is carrying out legal research."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3416.715,"endTime":3418.925,"body":"The next par-- the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3416.715,"endTime":3418.925,"body":"next paragraph of this article"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3419.135,"endTime":3420.425,"body":"is really setting me off."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3420.735,"endTime":3425.764,"body":"So this says \"Google's AI unit, DeepMind,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3420.735,"endTime":3425.764,"body":"has made science a priority and DeepMind"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3425.795,"endTime":3430.384,"body":"boss, Demis Hassibis was a co recipient of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3425.795,"endTime":3430.384,"body":"a Nobel prize in chemistry last year for"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3430.384,"endTime":3431.414,"body":"technology developed in the AI unit.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3431.864,"endTime":3434.574,"body":"And it pisses me off that the"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3431.864,"endTime":3434.574,"body":"committee, the Nobel committee has"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3434.574,"endTime":3440.069,"body":"now made it such that like this kind"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3434.574,"endTime":3440.069,"body":"of this kind of awarding of this"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3440.189,"endTime":3445.079,"body":"Nobel now grants these people license"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3440.189,"endTime":3445.079,"body":"to say that they're Nobel laureates"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3445.079,"endTime":3446.879,"body":"and they know shit about science."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3447.259,"endTime":3453.159,"body":"And in so far as that they, these, these"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3447.259,"endTime":3453.159,"body":"organizations are doing anything that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3453.159,"endTime":3459.059,"body":"is, that is, you know, in the ambit of"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3453.159,"endTime":3459.059,"body":"what we call quality scientific activity."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3459.459,"endTime":3464.379,"body":"And so, you know, it's, it's really"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3459.459,"endTime":3464.379,"body":"this kind of laundering, um, via"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3464.379,"endTime":3466.239,"body":"this, this, this award and it's just."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3466.305,"endTime":3470.294,"body":"All"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3466.305,"endTime":3470.294,"body":"right, one last thing."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3470.574,"endTime":3475.924,"body":"This is from Vox Future Perfect, uh,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3470.574,"endTime":3475.924,"body":"Seagal Samuel, February 21st, 2025."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3475.934,"endTime":3480.714,"body":"The headline is, \"Is AI really thinking"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3475.934,"endTime":3480.714,"body":"and reasoning or just pretending to?\""},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3482.144,"endTime":3486.224,"body":"And then subhead, \"The best answer,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3482.144,"endTime":3486.224,"body":"AI has quotes, 'jagged intelligence',"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3486.499,"endTime":3488.529,"body":"lies in between hype and skepticism.\""},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3489.419,"endTime":3490.719,"body":"Jagged intelligence."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3490.749,"endTime":3495.109,"body":"Is that like, is that, is that"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3490.749,"endTime":3495.109,"body":"like an AI bot that is trained"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3495.109,"endTime":3496.549,"body":"on Alanis Morissette songs?"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3497.059,"endTime":3499.619,"body":"I was going to say,"},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3497.059,"endTime":3499.619,"body":"it's the name of my punk band, but."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3499.629,"endTime":3500.159,"body":"I know."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3501.719,"endTime":3503.089,"body":"This is jagged intelligence."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3503.09,"endTime":3504.799,"body":"This is our first song."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3504.809,"endTime":3505.719,"body":"Rat balls."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3506.779,"endTime":3510.287,"body":"1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3510.287,"endTime":3512.227,"body":"1 2 3 4."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3512.227,"endTime":3512.517,"body":"(normal voice)"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3512.517,"endTime":3512.777,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3512.799,"endTime":3517.579,"body":"So the headline's pretty terrible now"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3512.799,"endTime":3517.579,"body":"and it sort of claims about intelligence."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3517.929,"endTime":3519.559,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3517.929,"endTime":3519.559,"body":"just want to go back to this."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3519.569,"endTime":3520.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3520.109,"endTime":3521.889,"body":"Is it, is it"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3520.109,"endTime":3521.889,"body":"really thinking and reasoning?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3521.969,"endTime":3522.459,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3522.729,"endTime":3523.669,"body":"Or just pretending to?"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3524.019,"endTime":3524.769,"body":"Also no."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3525.129,"endTime":3525.249,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3525.249,"endTime":3528.449,"body":"I don't, don't like both."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3528.499,"endTime":3528.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3528.749,"endTime":3529.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3529.439,"endTime":3533.499,"body":"Like pretending suggests intentionality,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3529.439,"endTime":3533.499,"body":"suggests intent to deceive."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3533.519,"endTime":3535.179,"body":"It's like, it's none of those things."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3535.369,"endTime":3535.899,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3536.689,"endTime":3537.179,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3537.969,"endTime":3538.249,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3538.399,"endTime":3538.699,"body":"Ah."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3539.059,"endTime":3539.579,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3539.779,"endTime":3541.059,"body":"That brings us to time."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3541.069,"endTime":3545.639,"body":"Um, thank you so much and I have to"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3541.069,"endTime":3545.639,"body":"get to the right window for myself,"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3545.689,"endTime":3548.839,"body":"but just, this has been a lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3549.379,"endTime":3553.195,"body":"Um, And, uh, so again, thank"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3549.379,"endTime":3553.195,"body":"you Raina for joining us."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3553.195,"endTime":3556.175,"body":"Raina Bloom is Reference Services"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3553.195,"endTime":3556.175,"body":"Coordinator for University of"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3556.175,"endTime":3558.565,"body":"Wisconsin Madison Libraries."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3559.045,"endTime":3559.865,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3559.875,"endTime":3560.625,"body":"It was a lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Raina Bloom","startTime":3560.625,"endTime":3561.155,"body":"I appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3561.155,"endTime":3563.265,"body":"It was a hundred"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3561.155,"endTime":3563.265,"body":"percent our pleasure."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3563.265,"endTime":3564.345,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3564.985,"endTime":3568.705,"body":"Our theme song is by Toby Menon, graphic"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3564.985,"endTime":3568.705,"body":"design by Naomi Pleasure-Park, production"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3568.705,"endTime":3572.545,"body":"by Christie Taylor, and thanks as always"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3568.705,"endTime":3572.545,"body":"to the Distributed AI Research Institute."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3572.865,"endTime":3575.615,"body":"If you like this show, you can"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3572.865,"endTime":3575.615,"body":"support us in so many ways."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3575.615,"endTime":3578.084,"body":"Rate us and review us on"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3575.615,"endTime":3578.084,"body":"Apple podcasts and Spotify."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3578.085,"endTime":3583.105,"body":"Pre order the AI con at TheCon.AI"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3578.085,"endTime":3583.105,"body":"or wherever you get fine books."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3583.315,"endTime":3587.725,"body":"Subscribe to the Mystery AI Hype"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3583.315,"endTime":3587.725,"body":"Theater 3000 newsletter on ButtonDown."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3587.74,"endTime":3592.93,"body":"Or donate to DAIR at DAIR-Institute.Org,"},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3587.74,"endTime":3592.93,"body":"that's D A I R hyphen institute dot O R G."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3593.3,"endTime":3595.57,"body":"Find all our"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3593.3,"endTime":3595.57,"body":"past episodes on PeerTube and"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3595.57,"endTime":3596.72,"body":"wherever you get your podcasts."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3596.73,"endTime":3598.82,"body":"You can watch and comment on"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3596.73,"endTime":3598.82,"body":"the show while it's happening"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3598.82,"endTime":3599.87,"body":"live on our Twitch stream."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3599.87,"endTime":3602.46,"body":"That's Twitch.TV/DAIR_Institute."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3602.7,"endTime":3605.19,"body":"Again, that's D A I R"},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3602.7,"endTime":3605.19,"body":"underscore institute."},{"speaker":"Emily M. Bender","startTime":3605.46,"endTime":3606.54,"body":"I'm Emily M. Bender."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3606.86,"endTime":3607.91,"body":"And I'm Alex Hanna."},{"speaker":"Alex Hanna","startTime":3607.92,"endTime":3609.47,"body":"Stay out of AI hell, y'all."}]}