Hope, Grief, and the Search for Miracles in the Shadow of Addiction w/ Yesenia | The Day After Ep. 7

In this episode, Yesenia joins host CJ to discuss the recent passing of her older brother, Uriel, who struggled with alcoholism. Yesenia opens up about the impact of his death on her family and the Hispanic community, where alcohol-related issues are prevalent. The conversation delves into the emotional journey of grief, the struggle with boundaries, and the cultural aspects of family and addiction.

Yesenia shares how her experience with grief has been profound, revealing the complexity of emotions she faces, including guilt, hopelessness, and the challenge of moving forward. CJ, who has experienced similar familial struggles, offers empathetic insights and parallels from his own life.

Throughout the episode, Yesenia and CJ explore the strength found in acknowledging one's grief, the hope for reconciliation, and the idea of finding gifts within tragedies despite the pain involved. They also discuss the influence of cultural background on their grieving processes and the importance of setting healthy boundaries for self-preservation.

The episode is a heartfelt exploration of Yesenia's journey through grief, family dynamics, and the ongoing process of healing and acceptance.

Unfortunately, co-host Ashley was unavailable for this episode due to the time difference. 

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A personal note from the hosts: After much reflection, we've decided that this season of "The Day After" will be our final one. It has been a profound honor to share this journey through grief with all of you. As CJ steps back to focus on other ventures, we want to express our deepest gratitude for your support, your stories, and your willingness to navigate these difficult conversations alongside us. Though the podcast is ending, we hope the conversations about grief and loss continue, and that our episodes remain a resource for those who need them. If you've found comfort in our discussions, Ashley and Liz will continue Sit, Lay, Rest - our pet grief podcast - you can follow them on Instagram at @sitlayrest. Thank you for being part of our community.

Music by Servidio Music

Transcript

Yesenia: 0:12

My older brother Ramirez he passed away August 1st, 2023, so fairly recently. And unfortunately it was due to alcoholism

CJ: 0:23

and, uh, yeah, so recent it's. Not even like, just barely into this kind of grape journey. And I think you mentioned too earlier that this was one of like the first big loss for your family. Is that right?

Yesenia: 0:38

Yeah, so, we've had lo I've personally lost just kind of childhood friends. A few actually that, you know, I've, I have known, I had known since grammar school. You know, it's obviously they always say, right, your friends turn into your family, right? So, those did hit, but, you know, nothing close to this. My mom also had a partner that unfortunately passed away due to alcoholism as well. And that was about 16 years ago. So, you know, it's, it, it becomes one of those you're just kind of going through auto mode. Right? Unfortunately when, when my brother passed I kind of already knew what, just kind of like what the, the unfortunate series of events was leading up to.

CJ: 1:16

Mm-hmm.

Yesenia: 1:17

Just because of the decline in health and just the, the, the random things that doctors were telling us, you know, and you obviously hope for the best and you know, you just kind of push through it and you become hopeful and you pray and, you know, you look for a miracle in a sense. But unfortunately, like in, in deep in your gut, you kind of understand that it's not looking good for them, right? Yeah. In their last days, you just kind of take a look that my God, like, I guess if there's anything I could do, but then there's also that hopelessness, right? Because mm-hmm. It's really nothing you can do, right? Everything that you try doing you know, you had no, no results when, you know, when they were alive or, you know, when, when they were trying to kick a habit, you know? And being the second person that we knew that close, that that passed away because of, of this issue. Mm-hmm. It just kind of leads you to, you know, understand how, how big, how. Big of a problem. It is, yeah. Unfortunately for, for our Hispanic community we see it so much. Right. And really, yeah. I mean, for us it's one of those where, oh, you know there's family that unfortunately do have alcohol problems, but, you know, they're fine for years and years. Right. And then selfishly, unfortunately, when my brother passed there was that that inkling of like, God, like this person is, you know, in their seventies if they've drunk all, like they've drank all their lives and they're still kicking, like they're still there. You know, like why, like why take, like from us? Right. When, when you feel that you've already like, taken so much, like why do you continue to take from us? Mm-hmm. In that same in that same manner in a sense, you know, and, and, and it is sad, you know, but you come to the conclusion that unfortunately people that, you know, I have a problem with substance abuse. There's only so much you can do. Right. There's only so much you can do. There's gotta be something deep within them that wants to get better. Yes. You know, and mm-hmm. And if there isn't, you know, unfortunate circumstances keep happening. And, and that was, that was what happened. You know, as much as we tried helping him, he went to rehab a couple of times in Mexico, you know, he, he kept telling my mother like, I wanna go, I wanna go live. I wanna go back to my country. I wanna, you know, I wanna live there. And, and my mom said, fine, go. You know, but it was, it was trying one thing after another after another, just to see if, if just something stuck. Right. If something, if somebody told him something. You know, we'd been in the US since I was three. He was five. So the first time we went back to Mexico, we were well into our twenties, you know. The first time both of us went together to Mexico was after my stepdad, you know, passed away. And it was one of those where you just. You wanna feel that welcoming, right. From family, but at the end of the day, they're strangers. Right. And our culture is so like family oriented, but when, when you grow up in the US and you're just kind of used to us culture, it's, it's very hard to really feel that, you know, deep to your core when you really didn't grow up with that. Right?

CJ: 4:15

Yeah.

Yesenia: 4:16

So I think that was an effort for him to just kind of feel reconnected with those roots before we came here. And, and I feel maybe, you know, where, where he thinks like, you know, it might have not been the best decision to come here. Right. To maybe reconnect again with his roots and, and find answers maybe that he was looking for. We don't know. But unfortunately that yielded no results too, right?

CJ: 4:37

Yeah. Yeah. And you said he did that twice?

Yesenia: 4:40

Yeah. Yeah, he was over there twice here in the us. He, he. He assist, he went to multiple aa groups. Mm-hmm. He tried the church. A couple of different ones actually. And that also didn't, didn't help. So, you know, I, I do feel at the end he was just tired. Right. You, you just kind of see him and see his spirit and it's, it's just one of those where you just understand like, he's tired, you know? Yeah. His life hasn't been easy. You kind of give him, you know, props for trying right. Because at least he got there. At least he got to the point where like he tried. But, yeah. It just, it just couldn't kick it. And unfortunately because of that I did have to, me and my mom had to create space, right? In order to protect ourselves, in order to protect me, myself, my family, I have to two kids, you know, and our husband and we live, you know, in an environment where it, it's very calm, it's very, you know, what I wanna call peaceful, structured, you know? So, he was just kind of one of those you just never knew if he was gonna be okay or not. Mm-hmm. Right? So we had to create some distance. I did have to put boundaries with my mom, you know, to tell her, Hey, like if you talk to him, if you see him, that's great, but I don't wanna know about it, right? Mm-hmm. Because I'm, I'm a big empath, and if I know he's struggling, my first reaction is gonna wanna help, which is gonna turn into enablement, right. So unfortunately, you know, because I had to create that I did lose contact with him for a number of years, you know, and my, our father wasn't in our life, but he was somebody that would random call, randomly call me until I had to put that boundary with him as well, because, you know, the calls were just complaining about him, you know, and I would take the stance of, you know, if, if you're gonna complain about him, don't call. Right? Because complaining about him does nothing. Right. At all whatsoever.

CJ: 6:39

I am unfortunately very familiar with this. We have had a lot of drugs and alcohol in our family and that whole idea of like having to put boundaries up, and I've watched family members who don't do that and how unhelpful it is for the addict and how, how unhelpful it is for their life. And I know it's hard, it's hard to be like, hey. No more because we love that person and, and I think like explaining it in a way of like, this is how I'm showing you love. Exactly. I'm showing you love by saying like, you, you have this thing and this thing is, is not going to impact my life because it's not a choice that I made. And exactly when you go and you want to be sober, I will welcome you back with open arms and I love you and I want to help you and I'm helping you by giving you the space to go and do what you need to do without my interference. And it's sometimes I've seen family members who struggle really hard with that and I've seen people do it really well. And, uh, but yeah, so I'm very, very, very familiar. I mean, since the time I was born, there's always been drugs and alcohol in my family. Unfortunately it's really hard to watch that.

Yesenia: 7:54

It's so hard and you deal with the guilt behind it, right? Yeah. Because obviously you love them, you know, and you kind of understand why some people just can't let go because, you know, regardless of everything. After he passed away, my mom, you know, became very honest about everything that she did for him, you know? Absolutely. So I was not aware of, I wanna say 95%. Wow. Of, you know, the things. And I actually apologized to her because. I put myself in her shoes at that point, and my mother has been the person that is, you know, the grandmother that is at there at birth, that's there for birthdays, that's there for school functions that, you know, she is the present grandmother that everybody wishes they had. Right. So, since I became a mom, my mother has always been just a constant present in my life, my kids' life. Right. So me putting myself in her shoes and then at one point realizing what she had to do in order to make sure I didn't find out in the ways that she helped him. My heart just went out to her, you know, because I, you know, I feel that her biggest fear was that at one point I was gonna say, okay, then I can't talk to you anymore because you can't let him go. Yeah. Right. And I can't be in this situation. Right. And things like that. So, I, I did apologize to her, you know, and I said, I'm so sorry for like, unfortunately leaving you alone in all of this, because I understand, like, I know a mother's love and I know that it's unconditional, you know, and I did let you do this by yourself. I understood why, you know, I, I, I, I, you know, I didn't regret doing it because obviously as a mom, like I had a family to protect myself, but I, I did apologize to her. And I feel that, you know, the guilt that she felt you know, in, in one way or another in regards to his alcoholism, right? Might've also been the reason why she just couldn't let go, right? Because she was a single mom and, you know, she, she, in some way, shape or form, I feel that she felt responsible for, for where he was at. You know?

CJ: 10:11

What do you think? Uh. Some different choices or actions would've been if you had to redo it then with your mom?

Yesenia: 10:18

I think I would've still had the boundary of, I don't wanna know, but I wouldn't have been so rigid on, if I help you, you can't help him. Right. Because even little things you know, financial situations where I, I've always tried my best to make sure she was okay financially, she had no worries and she just loved to calm, you know, just fruitful life. And, you know, knowing that obviously me helping her financially meant that she could help him financially. Ah, yeah. Right. So I think that where I would've come in would've just been like, listen, like I don't care what you do with my help as long as you are okay. Right. In essence, like, don't struggle, don't. Think, don't worry about, oh my God, what's gonna happen if she finds out? Yeah, right. You're a mom and if you choose to keep helping him, go ahead. But I was very rigid, cj I was like, I, I don't want you helping him. He needs to understand like, this is taking his family, this is taking, you know, just like everything away from him. Like something's gotta click, you know? And yeah, and, and I think that at some point so unfortunately we found out when we were actually on vacation in Mexico that he was in the hospital and it was a suicide attack. Ah. Right. So he, he did always state how lonely he felt. Right. I feel that to a point it might have become even like a way to manipulate the situation. But my mom, he would tell my mom, when I call you, please make sure you answer because that means that, you know, I need somebody to talk to. So my mom would try her best to answer, but if she was at my house, she couldn't. Right. So that's what I meant. Like it became very, like me having to like, kind of backtrack and realize like what she had to go through as well with my, with my decision to just not know. Right. To just not know. So unfortunately he, he, it was an attempted suicide. He was, we didn't know it was, my mom didn't know either the extent of it, but he had cirrhosis. He had been diagnosed with cirrhosis in January of 2023. And then, his attempted suicide was in June of 2023. And then we pretty much, you know, came back. It was like towards the end of June we got the phone call, we rushed back we're by his side right before July 4th. And then, you know, just in and out of the hospital, in and out of the hospital, in and out of the hospital after that. When he left the ICU, one of the, one of the doctors made a comment of Uriel, who would've known that, you know, family was all you needed, right? Because I guess it had been so hard for them to just stabilize him that as soon as we got there, things just started to progress to like a, a positive wow. Right? Yes. So that, so that hit me. Yeah. Right. As, as the only family he had, there was only three of us, you know, it was my mom, him and I. So we kind of took care of him and well took care of him. My mom, you know, stayed with him in his apartment for. Goes 30 days in July, and then, you know, unfortunately the end of July, he goes into the hospital, they, they tell us he needs to go into hospice, you know, because we were very, is he gonna get better? Is he not? They did tell us he needs a liver transplant, unfortunately, you know, it's decompensated cirrhosis, right? So he's deteriorating and because of his alcoholism, he just, he doesn't qualify for transplant. You know, my mom and I were even, can you test us? Like, can he get like, you know, part of our livers, like, you know, we, we've heard of like live liver donors and, and the doctors, you know, I gotta give it to them because. I can only imagine what it, what it means to talk to a family that has just feels so much hope and they actually knowing that things are just not good, you know? So they were very honest with us. I'll always give them that, you know, and they were like, unfortunately, they won't even approve it. Right? Even if it, if you are willingly donating, so like, part of your liver, like the board is not gonna approve it. He, he's an alcoholic, you know, and they won't even put him on the list at this point. So, at that point we were just kind of like, okay, well, just hopeful. Right. Hopeful. Hopeful, hopeful. Hoping for a miracle. Right? But at, at the end. At the end, which is kind of new.

CJ: 14:27

So what was the experience of not having him in your life and kind of, you know, putting up those, those healthy boundaries and then getting that call and now spending, you know, six weeks with him in and out of the hospital. Like what, what was the emotional impact of that?

Yesenia: 14:46

It was really bad. It was bad and it was good because obviously as you're grieving, you have all these emotions. So finally being able to see him, talk to him, have conversations, spend nights at the hospital with him, it was one of those, he was back. Right. I remember my brother before he was an alcoholic, right? Because while unfortunately during his alcoholism, a lot of things happened between us that were not good, you know, as tends to happen. He stole from me many times, you know, and, and things like that. So being able to talk to him, to have that month with him, to actually, I feel like getting my brother back at least for 30 days. Right. It was good. I feel like, you know, for people that. You know, are, are, are spiritual in any way. I do feel that, you know, God gave, I, I felt that he was unjust in the beginning because I was like, how do you give him back for 30 days and then just snatch him? That's so unfair. Yeah. Right. And I was angry at that, you know. But one of a very good friend of mine said that, you know, I was looking at it the wrong way because sorry. I had, I had to look at it as God gave him those 30 days Right. To reconcile and to really to really find him. Which, which he did. You know, he had prayers in his phone. He would sit and pray every hour. You know, he would tell my mom, just pray I'm gonna be okay. He would tell my mom, you know. I'll be where he wants me and wherever I am, I'm always gonna look after you guys. You know? So just kind of giving her that that, that assurance that he understood, you know, that as much as he wanted to stay, if it was his time, that he, he understood it was, you know, so that after a while and understanding that that, you know, it wasn't that it was unfair for me to get my brother back. It was really a time of reconciliation and it was really a time for me to say goodbye with love instead of, you know. Mm-hmm. Just, I wanna say anger and, and unfairness that I felt towards it. Right. Because it was, you know, anger towards like, God, like why can't you just kick this already? Yeah. You know? I, he, he met my son when he was seven, you know, and to me it was like, my son loves soccer. And it's like, why? You know, my, my brother was an avid guitar player. He loved music. My daughter loves music. You know, he was an avid soccer player since he was young. He was right at soccer, played soccer all throughout high school. And, you know, it was one of those like, God, like, why, why don't you wanna be a part of this? You know, why don't you wanna be a part of your nephew and your niece's life? You have so much to offer. You have so much to teach them, you know, so, so it was finally, you know, letting, letting go of like that that anger in a sense and really understanding that, you know, it wasn't his choice. It is a sickness, you know, and, and some people do find the comfort and just the strength to, to kick it and, and, and really get better. And there are some people who have, you know, stories that are beyond fixing to them, you know? And as much as they want to, they just can't.

CJ: 18:19

Yeah. I've, I've seen the difference in somebody who wants to be better and somebody who doesn't. You know, I, I had two Yeah. Really stark examples of that. A few in my life. And, and you could tell somebody who genuinely is like, I am a, I am out of control and I can't do anything, but I so badly want to be better and I can't. But hearing you and thank you for sharing and opening your heart, so I just wanna like, hold space for that. I, I really appreciate that because it really, it kinda hit me in the heart a little bit because my, my biological father, I, uh, he had left when I was very young. And I would only see him once in a while, like maybe once a year. And then once I became a teenager, like never saw him in my whole life, I'm like, I just want my dad. Like, I want my dad. Like I ha I have had an amazing stepfather, but I'm like, I want my dad. Like, he carries my genes and my family's like, oh, you do this thing. It's so much like your dad. And I just, but he just couldn't be there for me. He couldn't be a dad. He had his own struggles and his own story. And one day, uh, while my wife had just had her second or third recurrence, so she had metastatic disease, breast cancer, I remember sitting and I was actually writing this story about my wife and what it was like to care for her. And I get a call from him and he's like, I need to let you know that I was just diagnosed with lung cancer. And it just hit like a ton of bricks. And I went out, I was in the, the other room, I went out, my wife was in the kitchen and I told her, and she was like, you need to go down there.'cause he lived in Florida, I'm in New York. She's like, you have to go. I'm like, I'm not going. I can't, like, I can't leave you alone with the kids. You have your treatment coming up. There's no way I'm leaving. Nothing's gonna happen. And she really encouraged me to go and gave me that space. And I did. And I'll never forget flying there, getting to the airport and waiting for his his wife to pick me up, who I didn't have a great relationship with, didn't really know her. She picked me up, brought me home, and I was working from home in his home office in Florida. And my whole intention was, I know what he and his wife are gonna go through because I went through this. I'm just gonna be there as one human to another to help him in his appointments, get him set up for treatment and then I'll go home. So that was my intention. And so I'm sitting at the desk like two or three hours go by and I'm at the front of the house and I see his red truck screeching up the driveway. And I kind of paused. This is a man that has never really shown affection, never really was a dad to me. Even the times that we spent together. And I hear the front door burst open and all I hear is, where's my son? Where's my son? And I hear him run down the hallway and he burst through the door and I was in shock. I didn't know what to do. I just stood up and he ran and he grabbed me and he is like, I feel so much better. I can't believe you came. I can do this now. I can't believe you came. We spent in an entire week going to his appointments, going to work out together, going to this and that, and doing everything. Wow. As a father and son. And the night before I left, I asked him and I said, why did you leave us? And we talked until early hours in the morning and we just sat on the couch. Wow. And held each other and cried and forgave each other. And I had a dad for a year before he passed. And it was, that's a long-winded way to say that. Like it really touches home with me, your experience with your brother. And I had that same anger of like, why did I finally get my dad? I mean, he would FaceTime me and just watch me work and just be present with me. And I'm like, why did I get him just to lose him and then to lose my wife a year after that? And I. It takes time and it takes work and energy and it's hard to hear, but there is a gift in the tragedy. There's always a gift. And none of us would want that gift. We, we want our person, but there is a gift, right? Absolutely. There's that gift of that month and I look at it, I'm like, I got to reconcile with my dad and I got to spend a year, and it just healed a part of me, that child, part of me. And I think it's just so beautiful that you're able to see that. I think a lot of us can't. Yeah, it's taken me a while to see the gift in losing my wife, but all that to say is it's beautiful and I'm so glad that you brought that up and I'm so glad that you shared that. And I'm curious about the experience of having that anticipatory grief because not only did you lose him, and then not only did you have the really, the grief that surrounds the. The addiction and growing up and going through life in that, and then the boundaries and the grief of losing him and then getting him back, and then losing him again permanently. What was the contrast of all of that? How did you work through that? Did you, were you cousin it of that, were you aware of that, that that was happening?

Yesenia: 23:54

I locked it up so far down. Cj. Oh yeah. I, because here's, here's a kicker. Okay. Let me tell you something. The kicker is that my husband comes from a big family. Okay. My husband has, there's four of them. There's two girls, there's two boys. They're parents. His parents are still together, right? They just celebrated 50 years married. Right. So if I feel that if I would've allowed myself to really understand what I was losing, I wouldn't have made it. Wow. Because to this day, it's really hard. To be in family functions with my, my husband's family, right. So to me, it just hides my loss. Right. Because again, the, the selfishly, the, the, the feeling of unfairness comes back, right. Of God, I had one and, you know, and, and you didn't even let me keep that one. Yeah. Like, why, you know? And then, you know, obviously it's, it's my mom, so I feel that, you know, after that we've just kind of clunk to each other so hard because I know that if I would've. When, when I first decided to put that boundary up, I didn't see him, but I knew he was out there and there was always that hope, right? There's always that hope that, you know, he's gonna get better. And there's always that hope. You're not, you know, you're not constantly thinking about him, but you're definitely like, oh, you know, he's still out there, he's still out there somewhere, right? And when he's no longer out there somewhere, all of that just leaves, right? That hope, that hope is taken from you. The feeling of maybe one day, right? The one day is taken from you. Now you have to think about, well, you know, my, my kids are are gonna know about him, but they're not gonna know him. Right. You know? And I would've loved for them to know him. So it's, it's very it, in order to survive, I feel like I, I wasn't really conscious of it at all, you know, I just kind, I buried it. And, you know, it was, it was really just trying to survive after he passed away. You know, making sure my mom was okay, right. Because I can't, I can't lose another one. Yeah, yeah. Right. And, and she lost a whole son. Right. A whole grownup in a sense. So as a mom, I'm like, I, I know I, I'm, I'm hurting as a sister, but, but I can't even compare right through, through what she's going through, because I feel that her hope was even bigger than mine, you know, through all of these years, you know? So it was, it's been, it's been a journey for sure. I. It got to the point where I was just tired, you know? It got to the point where I just needed to keep myself busy to just not think. And I still can't really be, you know, around like family functions to that level. Yeah. You know, because it just, it still brings back just feelings of loss, feelings of loss and, you know, and loneliness in a sense. You know, because I think that I, I don't think I ever heard, I heard about, you know, just grief and sometimes how it hits you, but I don't think I ever realized, or I don't remember ever hearing about how lonely it can feel as well. Yes. You know, just the feelings that you have because nobody else, unless they've gone through what you've gone through, will ever understand just how incredibly sad and just depressing and, you know, like just, it fills you with, with, with, which is. Sadness that you can't, you don't even know where to start to work through it. Right. You know? So it's, it's very lonely when you understand that nobody in the world at that moment is feeling what you're feeling. And to even try to explain it, it, it's, you know, you are not, you can't, you can't, yeah. There's, there's

CJ: 28:03

no words. And that isolation, that loneliness is so heavy and Yeah. That, that took me by surprise as well. I mean, the moment my wife took her last breath, it was like, whoa, this is wild. And then time goes on and everybody's back to their normal routines, but our lives have significantly changed and we're reminded of it every day. Yeah. That loneliness. Absolutely. It's so crushing. And I think that part of that is that loss of identity of like, who am I now? Right? Like. Well, are you a sister now? Like, what does that look like? And, you know, reconciling with the decisions we made, I mean, there was years where I would just torture myself with, why did I do that? Why did I say that I should have done this? Why I couldn't. I bet she was feeling this. And like, just torture ourselves. Like, because there's nothing el there's nothing else. We can't go to them, we can't talk to them. We can't, we can't do anything other than feel that loss. And to not feel that loss, to not feel that loneliness, to not feel that sadness, that numbness, whatever it is, that's our only connection at that time that we have with them. And we don't wanna lose it. I didn't want to. I'm like, I, I don't wanna be sad. I don't wanna feel this heaviness, but at the same time, that's all I have left of her. And what happens if I smile again? What happens if I laugh again? What happens if my life moves on and forward?

Yesenia: 29:39

The guilt behind it too. Right. The guilt behind laughing, the guilt behind having a good time. The guilt, you know, I, I questioned myself many times of, you know, I could have just talked to him. Mm. I could have tried to not make him feel so lonely. I could have helped with his loneliness, like just torturing myself. Right. And then the, the having the con his constant smile in the back of my, my, my, my head, because he had a wonderful smile. He was, like I said, he wa he was a, a very charming, good looking guy, you know, and had a smile that could light up the room. Very suave, had like a nice swag to him. So having that in the back of my head mm-hmm. And. Wanting to stop and just cry in the middle of nowhere, but you got lunches to make, you got to go drop off to do, you know, and you're more than anybody understands this, right? Where you, you feel like you can't get up from bed, but guess what? Somebody needs breakfast. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Somebody needs breakfast. Somebody needs to, you know, to, to get their, their shoes, you know, help with their shoes. Somebody needs to get picked up from school, you know? And I feel that that's, that's why I needed to, even though he was there constantly every day to really just lock things up for a bit to survive, you know, because there was people that were depending on me. Yeah. Not to mention my mom. Right. I needed to watch after her a hundred percent. Making sure that, you know, we went on walks, making sure that she was able to talk, you know, making sure that we got her a therapist that speaks Spanish by, which by the way, did not realize how hard it is to find bilingual therapists. Finding a therapist that spoke Spanish, that took her insurance. We couldn't, we had to actually have her talk to somebody from Guatemala. Wow.

CJ: 31:39

Really?

Yesenia: 31:40

Mm-hmm. It was so, so eye-opening for me that were specifically, you know, good with grieving in a sense. Right. That we're specialized in grieving. It was so hard, cj. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I'm like, that's, there you go. Like, that's not something you think about. Right. When you're going through this, you, you don't, you don't think that, you know, you might have an issue with finding bilingual therapists, you know, at all whatsoever. As much as, you know. You, you want to believe that there's abundance of everything. Yeah, exactly. You know, there, there, there really isn't, you know, same thing with, you know, working when I was in the hospital with him and working, you know, in the hospital, you know, researching every day, what can we do to help him, you know, holistic remedies researching the medication they were giving him. You know, he was getting labs every day. So me going in and figuring out every single medical term and what it meant so that I could know if his labs were coming back, good or bad, you know? And, and it was just so much. Mm. It was a rollercoaster, you know, and, you know, you're, you're grateful that he's still here and you know, you're grateful that you're still able to love, you know, to hug him. Every time I left the hospital, he would yell until I couldn't hear him anymore. I love you sister. You know, all the waits from, from when I left his room, all the way to let you know, I got to, I got to the elevator and then sometimes my mom would see me through his hospital window and would mention like, Hey, like, there she goes, you know? And, and he would yell. My mom's like, I don't think he can hear you. She, she can hear you, but I'll let her know you yelled. You know? And I feel that, you know, it was, it was, yeah. Love you sisters. That I didn't get Yeah. That he knew he can give me now. That, that he just, he, he would scream at the top of his lungs, so I would hear him until I left. Yeah. That

CJ: 33:34

is beautiful. That is so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, what a gift that is. I, I, I just can't imagine. So I have. A bunch of questions that are polling up in my head. The first one is, uh, just kind of the, the commentary of feeling that loneliness of family functions very normal. I, I experienced the same thing for so long where we would be, you know, at birthday parties or, you know, holiday dinners, just our Sunday dinners, you know, and all I'm doing is looking at the door and being like, where is she? Why isn't she coming in? This is so weird. She's supposed to be here. And it was just so hard to take and I would just have to leave. I'd be like, I have to go home. And, you know, I don't think people really understand that. Like, you, you just, there is a sense of like, this is too much and this is not the way things are supposed to be. I. And I don't wanna see people being happy. I don't wanna see happy married couples. I don't wanna see families who have two parents. I, I just don't, and it's okay. Like, we're allowed to feel that way and, and it should be acceptable.

Yesenia: 34:48

Yeah.

CJ: 34:48

But the one of the questions is how has your relationship with your mom changed after, uh, going into the hospital and then having your brother pass and now?

Yesenia: 35:02

I feel that for her, the very present, real feeling of I can lose my daughter to Oh wow. Came to her so. My mom and I have always had this close relationship. It wasn't always like that. We, you know, there, there's obviously like every family I feel like, goes through this stage of, you know, feeling abandoned. And, you know, there were certain situations in our family circle that, you know, I felt abandoned. My, my brother felt abandoned, right. By both of our parents. And we just kind of felt like we were left to fend for ourselves because we were no longer living together. We were both still under 20, you know, and things like that. So the relationship with my mom started to become better. I wanna say about. A good 10 years ago. Okay. You know, so it, it did progress into just this very close relationship. It got stronger, a lot stronger. It got, you know, she's at my house every day. She doesn't live with me, but she's at my house every single day for school drop offs. Wow. You know, I, I feel that my son is the one that is really, I don't wanna say that he might have become just the replacement of my brother to her, but there is this just special bond between my mom and my son. Just insanely ins it, it's deep. It's deep. It's strong on both of their ends. Because my brother, my son will call my mom on any given Sunday if he's home and say, can you please come pick me up? And my mom will come and pick him up. Absolutely. Oh, you know, he will play video games with my husband and then say, okay, I'm done. I'm going to, he calls her Maya, which is it's what he calls her, it's grandma. Right. So he'll call her and he'll say, okay, I'm going to Maya's house now. And he will grab a phone and he will call her and say, Maya, can you please pick me up? And my mom will be right there, you know, people, he, he spends so much time with her, cj, I mean, after school, you know, when she's ready to go home. He comes and he asks is it my, is it my decision to go to Maya's house or stay here? And we always say, of course. You know, so sometimes he'll stay home with us, and then sometimes he will go home with her and to him. He has two houses. He will, you know, has clothes at her house. You know, when she does Andre, she will do his laundry over there. There is no clothes coming back and forth, you know, she has a whole closet there for him. Oh, toys, whatever you wanna, you know, you whatever he's gonna need. His favorite snacks. And then, you know, he comes home and it's kind of like, oh, okay. Like, I'm home now. But then if he's with Maya, he's fine too. You know? At some point they had him, she has a partner, so they had him so often that people actually thought he lived with them.

CJ: 38:03

Yeah.

Yesenia: 38:04

And he went to school at my mom's house. Wow. You know, but my mom's house and things like that. So their bond is definitely something that. I feel like has helped her.

CJ: 38:15

Yeah.

Yesenia: 38:16

And at the same time with me, with, I feel like it's mutual because I told her, right. When my brother passed away, it was very lonely, CJ and it was very lonely. And the point where I had a lot of resentment towards a lot of people because I feel that, you know, there was a part of me that wanted somebody to come save me. Yeah, yeah. Right. And nobody, and nobody got there. Right. There was a part of me, I took care of everything right, of, of my brother's funeral. You know, going to Costco, I, I guess I bought clothes. I somehow found receipts after he passed away. And I don't even remember going to get funeral clothes, you know, things like that where. I had a lot of resentment because I kept questioning myself of why did nobody come save us? You know, like obviously my mom couldn't, she was completely incapacitated at that point, you know, to do anything, you know? So it was me. It all just kind of landed on me calling, you know, the, the funeral homes and things like that, you know, so it was it was at a point where I looked at her and I was like, you know, we gotta take care of each other, right? Mm-hmm. Because it's just you and me, girl. Yeah. I was like, it is you and me. Nobody's gonna come save us. So we gotta look out after each other. And yeah, since then, I feel that, you know, we did, we had created a, a bond before, but now it's just unbelievably stronger where, you know, even though she's at my house every day, I will, I still call her on Saturday and Sunday, you know? Even though, you know, she's at my house every day. She'll, if, if I haven't called her by, you know, lunchtime, she'll call me and say like, Hey, like, are you guys okay? How's everybody? How'd you guys wake up? How'd you sleep? You know, just, just to hear each other's voice, right? How long that's gonna last. I don't know. I don't know if it's just us, you know, being each other's like security bucket in a sense right now, you know? But, but I do know that, that she is a love of my life. You know? My mom, my mom is my girl, you know? A a hundred percent. That

CJ: 40:22

is amazing. I, I had a feeling that it strengthened after all of this. Yeah. But I, yeah, I definitely was curious about that. Uh, where do you think that that emotion, that sense of I need somebody to come save me, came from? Like, where was the root of that?

Yesenia: 40:45

I think it came from just the sadness, the whole, I felt in, because I'm a fairly strong person. If anybody tells you, you know, when my mom lost her husband, you know, those years ago I was the one that, you know, took care of the funeral arrangements and did everything too. And, and he was actually buried in Mexico. So doing, you know, all of like the Mexico preparations too at the same time. Right. For, for him to arrive there with us and, you know, at the same time that we did and, and all of that. So I think it came from, from a sense of. I can't breathe, I can't sleep, I can't, I can't think, you know? I don't know what I'm doing. Mm. You know, I was like you said, numb. A lot of it. So, so I think it came from the fact that, because I consider myself a super strong person, a very independent woman in my own Right. At that point, I felt completely hopeless. Yeah. You know, and I was like, somebody needs to come because I knew things needed to get done, but I also knew I didn't have the strength, the mind, the, the logic, you know, to, to do it, you know? So yeah. And then I. I was asked, my mom asked me to speak at his funeral, and I was, I'm not gonna lie, cj, I was a little angry at that later because I was like, I can barely breathe. Yeah. Like, why do you want me to speak at this thing? You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I'm, I'm a writer by heart. I love poetry. I love writing, you know, so, and she knows that. So I know that's where it came from, where she was like, you're the best person to do it. Right? Like, you love doing this, and who else, who better than obviously his sister. But to me it was like, I'm barely standing. What do you mean? And then I wrote the most, I feel like generic thing in the world that I look back at it now. Yeah. And I was like, I, I could have said the most beautiful thing in the world. And I just wrote what he liked to do, which everybody in the. It was just like, oh, that's awesome. I was like, I wanna do over. Yep. Like, you know what I mean? So yeah, that was, that was, uh, that was interesting. That was very interesting for me. Yeah.

CJ: 43:08

I gave my wife's eulogy and I had so much pressure. So same thing, I'm a writer and I, like, I wrote about our journey, I wrote about my journey with my mental health. So I've always been publicly writing and I had so much pressure. So I did, I think we did 10 days before from the time she died until the, the funeral. And it was like every night I was just like, okay, I'm gonna write it. And then I couldn't. And you know, like there is physiological changes that happen in our brain when you're going through that early intense grief. I mean, you know, like you said, you haven't been sleeping. Wow. I slept two to four hours a night for an entire year.'cause I was tracking it like I would, I. Have to like, you know, put the, the sink on to, to do the laundry and then walk away from it. And then my basement started flooding. Like, there's just so much shit that, that you don't even think about because you're not even there. And like you said, I don't remember a lot. My sister would call and be like, where are you? I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, we had a conversation yesterday. I'm like, no, we didn't. But yeah, I had to do the same thing. Absolutely. I remember my heart was pounding, waiting to get up, and I don't even remember giving it. I, we recorded it, but I don't remember giving the eulogy. I just know that I got up there, I got through it, and that was it. And I was so glad that it was over. But but yeah, I, I, I, I definitely can relate to that sense of somebody please save me, but also the dichotomy of that with, but I can do everything myself, you know? And I was like. I would get angry that nobody was saving me, but then I would be angry that I couldn't do everything myself. And it's that push and pull constantly. And I was like, I'm gonna be a mom and a dad, and nothing is gonna change in our house. And my kids aren't even gonna know that they lost their mom. And I'm gonna do it all, and I'm gonna work full time and I'm gonna take care of everything. You know? And that sense of somebody saved me and, and it morphed into why did you leave me? I don't want this life. I didn't ask for this life. Yeah. And yeah, I just, I don't wanna be here, I don't wanna do this. So I, I definitely understand that, that kind of sensation, that feeling, those, those thoughts. Yeah. It's hard.

Yesenia: 45:33

It's so hard. It's so hard. You know? And the, the. You know, guilt afterwards, right? For having resentment towards nobody coming to save me. Because then I look at their skins and I'm like, if I think about it, if I really think about it, looking at myself from their point of view, them knowing who I am and how I am a little bit of a perfectionist, if not a lot, they'll probably say a lot. I think it's a little bit, but that's so, that's so for reputation. What if they would've stepped in to help? Would I have allowed them to? Right, right. Would I have allowed them to, or would I have had been this angry woman to say, no, I'm gonna do it because he's my brother and nobody else is going to do it but me. Right. They had this impossible decision. Right. So thinking about it later, I just kind of got to that conclusion where it was like, I'm sure there would've been people that would've happily come and cradled me and let me sleep four days, but they had an impossible decision to make. Like, do I just let her sleep for three weeks and really lose herself? Or do I let her get distracted to actually start living her life again? You know, because I promise you just, you know, cj, if they would've let you sleep for months, you would've slept for months. Oh, yeah. Right. I feel like I'm not even at the point where like I shower every day yet. I used to be an everyday shower person. Now I promise you, I'm still struggling with that. To, to get up and to actually understand, like, wait, we haven't, we haven't showered, we have to go shower, you know, things like that where you feel like it's normal now, but it's like, is it though, because you're never really gonna get yourself back. Right? And it's like, how do you, how do you accept and live with this new person that now, you know, has this, this intense loss walking with them every day? How, how do you do that? How do you learn to live with them again? And how do you learn to accept that person again? You know, how do you not get mad at her for breaking down in the middle of a meeting just because something triggered him, you know? It was a big music lover. Big music lover, you know, and, and in the beginning I couldn't listen to music. You know, I would be driving and all of a sudden the radio comes on and I'm, I'm in tears and I'm uncontrollably having to pull over because I, I can't breathe, you know? And. Having to, to have some grace for her for that new person is hard. Yes. It's, it's hard for me. It's really hard. Same,

CJ: 48:06

yeah. I've been railing against that for four and a half years now. And, you know, I'd be in meetings at work and just I'd, you know, I've worked remote so I just mute the camera and, and I'm just sitting there crying my eyes out, trying to listen or like wiping my tears in between. Yeah. Going to the next meeting. And I think, I mean, you said it so well, but it's, it's showing grace for that new person that we've become and finding and discovering who are they and. It, it almost in a sense feels like we become infants and we have to discover life again. You know, like I, to me, there was no future. And it, it's not that I'm like bleak, it's literally, I'm like, there's no visuals, there's no color, there's nothing. I can't see it. I wish I could, but I can't. And I don't know who is looking in the other mirror. And that aspect of, you know, still struggling to shower every day so normal. Because that's why like the simplest things, when people are in that intense grief, it's like, eat and shower and sleep as much as you can because we really do forget and don't have the energy to do it. And it was so bad for me absolutely. That I did, I spent four years not thinking that I was depressed, that I was just anxious. And it was like, well, I'm anxious. I have to deal with this anxiety. And I mean, I've had three therapists at once. I've done every modality of therapy, I've done all these esoteric things, everything I could think of.

Yesenia: 49:41

Wow.

CJ: 49:41

And it was, wasn't until three months ago, I have a new therapist and I showed up one day and I was like, you know, I think I'm actually depressed. I'm like, I don't think I get out of bed and I don't really enjoy anything. Wow. And she was like, yeah, yeah. She's like, that was one of the first diagnosis that I had for you. So yeah, it is that realization, like you said, it's like, well, we have to go and take care of our kids. We have people have animals to take care of. Like there's life that has to happen. So I think showing ourselves grace of like, Hey, maybe there's more stuff that's, that's happening here that I'm not giving space for. Yeah. So out of respect for your time, I have one more question for you. And I'm really curious because I'm listening to you talk. You have been through so much and you have done so many amazing things. You have been through a really difficult situation. I understand that situation. Mm-hmm. And I know the decisions that you've made are not easy, like not easy at all. And they have lifelong consequences. And while I'm listening to you talk and seeing the expression on your face, I just feel like there is such a strength there. And by strength, I mean there's such an acknowledgement of what your life is now, an acknowledgement of the way that this experience has impacted you, and an acknowledgement of the responsibilities that you have. And to me, that strength, the acknowledgement is strength.

Yesenia: 51:23

Thank you C.

CJ: 51:24

Thank you. So I'm curious, what is your relationship with grief now?

Yesenia: 51:32

Oh, I can't swear, but yeah, I res I respect it. I respect it, but I still hate it. I still hate it. I, I, I avoided like the plague. Oh, I'm still there. Interesting. I have been, I have been in therapy for a year now, and that was because I was spiraling last year. I, I was, you know, I was putting it, I was putting it aside and saying I, I don't have time for it now. I don't have time for it now. I have to shut down his life. I have to make sure I'm doing everything right because, you know, I, I messed up something I forgot. I think I was supposed to, oh, it was his light. I, I was, I had to shut off his light, right? Mm-hmm. His light bill, simple things like that where I had to, I had to shut off his light bill, and for some reason, when I went into the come side, I chose the wrong date on when to shut it off. And I, I, I. I hated myself for that for so long, you know? And I was like, see, that's why I can, like, I don't have time to grieve right now. Right. It was, it was the, it was the, I don't have time for you. I, because I don't, there's so many people that are depending on me, he's depending on me right now to shut down his life. These are really critical things. You know, the certificates social security, like everything. Right? So I, I don't have time for you. I don't have time for you. I don't have time for you. Right. Then comes January of 2024 and I was spiraling. I felt myself, you know, I felt myself, I think I went almost two weeks without showering. Mm. I, it was, it was a mess. I didn't feel like. You know, cleaning my house, I was doing it just out of, you know, normalcy. Right. But internally, I felt myself spiraling. I couldn't concentrate at work. I couldn't do mundane things for me, you know, school things for the kids things like that. So I, I finally decided, okay, it's time. We just have to take care of it. Right? So started going to therapy you know, got all the tears out, got all of the sadness, got all of, you know, all the resentment, right? Got out of the why me, right? But I'm, I'm still grieving, I still miss him. I have a picture in, in my house of him. My mom has his ashes. I will still kiss him when, when I get home, you know? But I still, I still hate it. I respect grief, but I still hate it. I haven't, I haven't come, I haven't made peace with it, you know? And I still avoid it if I can, like, if I start feeling a certain way, I will sometimes talk myself out of it, you know? I, I think that, you know, right now with certain situations, and I do wanna say this really quickly, so there have been some things that have happened in our house after my brother passed away. That to me, makes me understand that when we're gone, we're really, are gone. Yeah,

CJ: 54:36

same.

Yesenia: 54:36

Right? To me, a hundred percent believe in that now, you know, so. I, whenever I'm feeling that way, I always sit and talk. I always sit and talk to him, you know, and one way or another I will feel like just the, the little blanket come over me, you know, and, and that moment is gone, right? I'm, I'm back to, to being, you know, to missing him, but no longer being in that, that sad, like, you know, dark hole, you know? So yeah. So I haven't made peace with it. I really haven't. I still hate it. Cj, I don't know how long I'm gonna hate it for. I don't know, you know, how long I'm gonna maybe be, be grateful that I can grieve. I know there's people that, you know, maybe aren't capable of doing it. I don't know. I don't know. But I know that I still hate it and I respect it because I know what it, what it means. And I know that. It's, it's love, right? That's what they say, right? What is grief? But all the love that, you know, you, you had for that person.'cause if you didn't love them, you, you wouldn't grieve them. Right. But, uh, yeah. But I, I, I hope one day I'll, I'll make peace with it. One, I hope one day I am, I allow myself to fully, fully feel it.

CJ: 55:50

Yeah.

Yesenia: 55:51

You know? And then maybe, maybe at that point I'll finally be able to start healing a little bit. But right now I feel like I'm still, I'm still avoiding it a little bit. For sure.

CJ: 56:01

I think the, yeah, the, the reframe of the grief is love For me that has worked so well, and I've said this a million times and I'll say it a million more, is that there is this container of grief and the bigger we grow that container to contain our grief is an equal portion to the amount of love and joy and abundance that we can have. Because they are the same container they are. The flip side of the coin and the pursuit of healing is really just the pursuit of growing that thing around our grief.'cause like you said, it's always going to be there. And knowing that here comes that gift of, oh my gosh, I am now have this expanded thing that is going to allow me to feel loved to a greater death than I've ever felt. Wow. And the whole thing's happening in the house, that happened to me too. Uh, the electronics in the house started going haywire, and I was always suspicious of it. I mean, unexplainable haywire, not just like, oh, maybe there's a short, like, like horror movie lights going crazy for very specific things that were happening. Or when me and the kids would be watching tv, the TV shuts off. Comes back on with snow shuts off, turns back on. And this kept happening over and over and over again. And for three years, two or three years, I'd have a few really trusted people in my life who were like, you need to go to a medium. You need to go to a medium. You have to go to a medium.

Yesenia: 57:40

Oh. I'm

CJ: 57:40

like, I'm not doing that shit. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what I believe. I'm like, I, I've, I just, I broke down every belief that I have. I'm not doing it. And I went to you know, and it's a long story, but I finally did it last year. And the first thing that he said to me after a lengthy process when my wife came through was, she's coming through to you in electronics.

Yesenia: 58:07

Oh

CJ: 58:08

yeah.

Yesenia: 58:08

Wow.

CJ: 58:10

Yeah. And he was like, and your dad's coming to you with, with Blue Jays, and your wife comes to you with. White birds, cardinals, and electronics in your home.

Yesenia: 58:20

Wow. We got a butterfly, a monarch butterfly. Mm-hmm.

CJ: 58:25

Oh, that's beautiful.

Yesenia: 58:28

One. It's always one. And he always finds me outside. Yeah. And water. Water. He'll turn on our faucet. Yeah. Oh yeah. And our kitchen, he'll turn on our faucet in our kitchen.

CJ: 58:39

Yeah. It definitely has opened me up to, it's so interesting. Okay. There's a lot of stuff that we really do not understand, you know? Absolutely. And like, I've just had so many experiences now since I kind of like went down that path and I could talk for four hours about it, but I, I, I'm, so, I'm glad you brought that up. But the, I'm, I want to know, so you talked a lot about you respect grief, you respect grief, but you're mad at it. You're angry. You still have that anger. And someday I'll make peace. What does making peace with your grief look like?

Yesenia: 59:16

For me, it's accepting it.

CJ: 59:20

Hmm.

Yesenia: 59:22

It's really accepting that this happened. It's really accepting that there was gonna be no other outcome. Right. It's really accepting that I'm not weaker because of it. I am not, you know, it doesn't take anything from who I am. Right. It's, it's really that, it's, it's welcoming it and making peace with it and saying, okay. And know there's a reason why I am here and it's okay. You know, and there's nothing that you could have done to avoid me.

CJ: 59:59

Mm mm-hmm. That, that's a beautiful definition. And, and I couldn't agree more. And, and I am, yeah. Definitely in line. All of that. And I really want to just tell you, you are not weaker because of your grief. If anything. Thank you. I think we have experienced things that make us stronger because we have to keep going and we have to endure in ways that people just don't, A lot of people don't have to. And not that I wish anybody would, I don't want anybody experience the depth that we have, but we all experience grief at some point and Right. Ours just happens to be now. But I, I am too soon. Yeah, it is Way too soon. Too soon. I am so grateful that I got to talk with you tonight, and for you giving me that time and the space to hear some of your story, to see your, your, your energy and I feel encouraged today was not an easy day, if I'm honest. I was really struggling. I, I, I'm exhausted. I've been working nonstop and it's almost nine o'clock. I haven't had dinner, and I'm like, I'm so tired. I don't, I just don't know how I'm gonna get through this. And I feel more energized, more encouraged, and I feel that I have a new resolve to continue down this path because, you know, I'm, I'm currently in the midst of the next iteration of my healing. So thank you for that and for giving me that tonight. And, and I know that it's going to help others. Thank you. Yeah,

Yesenia: 1:01:40

thank you. Thank you for the space as well. You know, it's, it's not a, it's not an easy journey, but as you say, right, when, when you have somebody that can add a little bit your, your box of grief, I'm gonna, it's gonna stay with me. It's gonna stay with me now. Good. I'm glad. You know, and I'll make sure it helps as well.

CJ: 1:01:58

Yeah. Thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it.

Yesenia: 1:02:02

You got it too.

CJ: 1:02:07

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