Finding Freedom That Heals Your Relationships

In this episode, Chris Grace and guests explore what it truly means to find freedom and identity in Christ. Joined by Dr. John-Paul (J.P.) Foster and Dr. Matt Williams, they discuss insights from their new book, Finding Freedom in Jesus: 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. Together, they unpack how understanding who God says you are transforms not only your sense of self but also your relationships, emotional health, and spiritual growth.

From battling negative self-talk to breaking free from shame, guilt, and false identities, this conversation dives deep into the biblical foundation of freedom and victory. You’ll hear powerful stories of transformation—from students and church members to an 87-year-old woman—showing that it’s never too late to live out your true identity in Christ. Whether you’re navigating challenges with friends, family, your spouse, or even your own self-worth, this episode offers practical wisdom to help you walk confidently in who God says you are.

Resources Mentioned:

• Finding Freedom in Jesus: 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ – By Dr. J.P. Foster & Dr. Matt Williams. A practical and theological guide to understanding who you are in Christ and experiencing spiritual freedom.
• Free Relationship Advice – Center for Marriage and Relationships (CMR) – Get confidential, biblically grounded, and practical advice from trained counselors to strengthen your relationships and prevent issues before they grow. 
• Ron Blue Trust – Financial Planning for Couples – Faith-based financial advisors helping couples find peace and unity in their finances through biblically sound stewardship. Learn more at ronblue.com or connect with advisor Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore@ronblue.com.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr
  
  

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Transcript

Chris [00:00:00] Hey, what if the key to building healthy relationships started not with what others say about you, but with what God says about you? So in this episode, we sit down with Dr. John Paul Foster and Dr. Matt Williams to explore their new book, Finding Freedom in Jesus. It's a powerful look at 21 biblical truths that define who we are in Christ. It's rooted in scripture, it's practical, and it dives deeply into your identity in Christ and how it can transform yourself worth. Your healing journey, and your ability to love others well. We'll discuss how your identity shapes your relationships, how to distinguish truth from feelings, and why embracing your God-given identity is the foundation for emotional and spiritual freedom. 

Mandy [00:00:44] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships Let's get right into it. 

Chris [00:00:55] All right. Well, welcome to another Art of Relations podcast. This is going to be awesome. We have some some cool guests today. Let me just start by saying Dr. Foster, I'm really glad you're here because there's a couple of things we got to talk about. We to go back in time. To, I don't know, 15 years ago, you and I, we smoked some teams in basketball. We did. We heard them real bad. We did I think the one who took the biggest lumps was Telly. 

JP [00:01:25] He said it first. Yeah, I said it very first. We had Tarnas on the team. We did, we did, but, you know, Tally taught Old Testament and he talked a lot of trash. He said, sometimes the Lord will use you to humble people. He's... 

Chris [00:01:37] A trash talker. And of all the people, speaking of trash talking, our other guest is Dr. Matt Williams. So first of all, Dr. J.P. Foster, I'm going to tell you a little bit more about him in just a minute. Dr. Williams, first of, how tall are you? You got to be 6'3". And so he- And I can still jump over him. And you can jump over here. I can jump. And here's the problem. So Matt's got this height and I'm like, Matt, you've got to come out and play. And he's like, no, I don't play basketball. Then we play one time. And that boy's shooting from everywhere. I mean, you were like, nailing threes. I'm like, what do you mean you can't play? You could have took us to new heights. 

Matt [00:02:16] Yeah. Ooh. Give me. Duff physically and metaphorically. 

Chris [00:02:19] Physically and see how we do it. So my guest here today on the Art of Alicia's podcast, Dr. JP Foster. Man, Dr. Foster, I'm gonna call you JP because you've been here at Biola, you're almost an institution here. Because first of all, you helped pay for all of this because the tuition you've had to pay for your bachelor's, master's and doctorate have all been to this institution and so thank you. First of all, for paying my way here. You got it. Let me know when they're going to put a building or a plaque. For JP, senior pastor, faith, central Bible church, and ministry affiliate faculty here at Biola, and man, that's some impressive stuff. JP, I think what stands out most is just your, everybody talks about just the passion you have as a communicator, as a pastor, as speaker, and we're just really glad to have you here today. It's good to be here. And I don't know if Dr. Williams had anything to do with this, but he says you were nothing until he got a Holder. Is that true, Dr. William? 

JP [00:03:26] You really must be speaking as though he was Jesus to them. As though he were Jesus. Acting class he's taken in John. 

Chris [00:03:31] He was taking an acting class at John. And so I know you've had him as a professor. Dr. Matt Williams, you've been here now. I'm gonna guess 20 years. It's my 24th. 24 years. Getting old. Getting old, baby. But Dr. Mount Williams is a legend around Biola in many respects. His class on the Gospel of John is, everybody loves it. And the way, Matt, you interact and love students. And talk with them about things like their identity and who they are. Matt, it stands out. People know that about you. But you've been here that long. I know you do also the accelerated master's program you've been doing for a while besides being a full faculty professor here. And then you just bring a lot from the academic admissions background. How many years in Spain? Eight years. Six years. Six years in spain is a missionary. It is. And I'm like trying to learn Spanish from him all the time, but he's too, I don't know, he doesn't help me at all with that. Okay. Let me just start off with this. Your book, by the way, is going to be, I think, some deeply powerful transformative work. That's going to be made available in book form, not just to students, man, but to those in the church, those from various backgrounds of understanding because it's so practical, but it's also deep. I mean, why start on this? Culture tells everybody what their identity should be. Right, I mean it says, oh, here's who you are, Here's what you should be like. And you guys started thinking about something like we need to help these students and readers and people out in the church recognize where their identity is coming from. Where did this come up? How did you guys kind of go? We got to dive into this identity topic. 

JP [00:05:36] Yeah, so it really started on, I let Matt Tate tell this story better than I do. It started on Zoom in the pandemic. Just during the pandemic, that's amazing. Quick, I made a joke on Zoom and he called me after I made the joke. You wanna tell him the story? 

Matt [00:05:51] Yeah, yeah, we were on a Zoom call and he's a pastor. So he says, how can I pray for you? I said, well, I'm going to start a new book. Then he goes, can I write it with you? Oh, no. Didn't ask what the book was. He says, let me write. 

JP [00:06:03] That was it. That was literally, that was it in the universal system. 

Chris [00:06:07] And so the rest, yeah, it's gonna be an amazing history. Tell me about it when you guys started planning this out because I would say if there's something that all of, like, okay, someone one time said, Mark Twain said the two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why. And so I'm thinking that's a pretty interesting statement and the why. Has to be, why am I here, which begs the question, who am I? What is my identity? And so you guys take 21 different chapters to explore everything God and the Bible says, what Jesus says about your identity. Is that kind of a good summary of it? 

JP [00:06:57] Yeah, it is, and it was, it took a lot of work, but I think there were more than 20, clearly you know there are more, theologically there's more than 21 terms. You describe something about the book, making it heavy for students and it's theologically rich, but it's also very practical. I think sometimes we make, especially as professors and in academia, we make these books, and I think some times we miss the church. And when Matt and I were discussing how How can we have the greatest impact? I said, well, you know, honestly, there are gonna be more people in the pew than there are going to be in the seminary classroom. And I said we can meet both, but we can have it be theologically rich, but also very practical. I said that I know the church needs this. I'm counseling people as a pattern. We're counseling. Like, what would you? 

Chris [00:07:47] You see? They need it because they come in and they're like, are they full of things like shank? Wrong things? 

JP [00:07:55] There's a couple ways you could say that but that the people come with baggage thing about this when you come to Christ I did yeah, I came to Christ. I didn't grow up in church So I came through Christ with baggage you come up you come the Christ with yeah baggage and I'm a I mean habits Yeah, that were ungodly unbiblical and is it not a light switch? Yeah, switch formation down a night the light switch So it's it's consistent progressive transformation that happens over time and the thing about it is I first have to know who I am in order to understand who I am. Yeah, no doubt. So the more I learn about who God is, the more begin to be transformed. And so I think in the church setting, you have parishioners who are wrestling with stuff. That's just how it is in church. And us, the three of us are struggling, wrestling with something. But then there's also this practical aspect of Christianity in general. Do you actually know your Bible? Do you know the Savior? Do you know Jesus? And I think that we're seeing a widened gap of biblical literacy. Back in the day, Sunday school class, you're in church multiple times a day and a week, and things have changed. Shift, the culture's shifting. But more importantly, as professors, we're seen that the gap of biblical literacy is widening and in Christian institutions. 

Chris [00:09:20] So JP is happening, not, I mean, you see it, but let's just say daily, man. It's not Sunday when you stand up there. You see it then, but you see it every day, you gotta check twice. 

JP [00:09:31] Thing that we just worked. 

Chris [00:09:34] Yeah, look at today, I don't even know what today is, but you're here, it's not Sunday. You're working away. So here you guys, okay, this is the Art of Relationships podcast. What does identity, and maybe I'll point it to you Dr. Williams or Matt, what does that have to do, this notion, I mean, I know it's a softball question, but let's Well, like this, can I have a successful relationship with somebody, my parents? My siblings, my coworkers, someone I'm dating or married to, if I'm struggling with who I am, or better yet, what you said, JP, who God says I am and who he says I'm. Because at the end of the day, it's who he say I am. Exactly, I know there's a good song about that, right? There's somewhere about there, it who God say I'm, so tell me about why is that so critical to relationships? 

Matt [00:10:33] Let me tell you what students are thinking, okay? I ask them in my classes, pay attention to your self-talk and write it down. Don't filter it, don't critique it. Is this at the beginning of this semester? This semester. It's wrong. And here it is. I got the list here. I am not enough. I deserve to be belittled. I'm not worth people's time. I will let people down. I'm so messed up. I wish I were someone else. 

Chris [00:11:05] That's what you're getting. 

Matt [00:11:07] Now these are Christians at a Christian university, and most of them are either juniors or seniors. 

JP [00:11:15] If you got to say, I'm a, the list says I'm a failure. I'm a loser. Yeah, this is all 

Chris [00:11:21] Where's this coming from? Okay, it's with our Christian students. It's in your pews. Yeah, yeah. Why, I mean, okay. Everybody else will say the opposite. Oh, we have enabled these young people in the world. We've enabled them. They think so great of themselves. We give them participation trophy. Everybody is like, you're the best, you are the greatest. But deep their self-talk, what's up with that? Why is there a difference between what we think? Is happening with them, like, oh, they think too highly of themselves, pride is the issue, but this is what's really going on. 

JP [00:11:58] Yeah, well you're thinking about and I don't want to miss another gap. It's not just the younger kids or younger generation We have adults who are professionals CEOs doctors lawyers or wrestling with the same thing 

Chris [00:12:08] See, that's Jake's brother, isn't it? When did this, when did this come to you? I mean, when, when 

JP [00:12:14] How did you guys figure this out? So I'm gonna throw you a nugget. Both of our wives are licensed therapists. 

Chris [00:12:22] But first of all, let's just give praise to therapists, man. They have their hands full, boy. We'll be honest with you. And with us. 

Speaker 5 [00:12:30] Okay. 

Chris [00:12:30] They don't get paid enough to get paid, so you two, it's worth it. So that's helped. I mean, because they probably have said, hey, JP, you've got to, I'm sure your wife said something like that. 

JP [00:12:42] What are things that you see culturally? Our church has a counseling center we call it the Champion Counseling Center. We have side Ds. I mean, students from other universities get their licensing hours at our church. So we believe in mental health. We believe in restoring. 

Chris [00:12:54] So they can say, please stay here, there, and everything. You guys gotta be, I'm sorry, but that's gotta be far and few in between the churches we run into that either have that as an emphasis, care about it, or maybe it's resources, but that is amazing. 

JP [00:13:12] You have to, you have to. So we're seeing, as Matt said, it comes from childhood trauma. It comes, some of them traumatic experiences as a young person. It could be abuse. Some of it is words that were spoken over them. Do you know how much it impacts a kid growing up? Not just when mom or dad says something, but your teacher, your coach, a classmate. So we deal now in the era of cyber bullying where people can kind of say things and hide behind a fake page. But you know, a lot of the things that are spoken over us, we also have an enemy, right? The devil, we have an enemies. Man, the way scripture describes him is that he's one of the accuser of the brother and he's talking about those that list, he's an accused of a brother. Sounds exactly like what the enemy's gonna say to you. The father of life, he's a liar, right. He wrongs back and forth like a lion seeks to make them out. He's not a lion, but he's always lying. Oh my man, my man. So you have to remember, and scripture says that anything that tries to buff itself up above knowledge of Jesus Christ, we have to tear down those strongholds and call them into obedience to Jesus Christ. So we have the enemy now building stronghold in our minds. And if we're not careful, we can begin to see ourselves through the lens of the lies that have been spoken over our lives. And that's an, imagine you're a professional. You've been, you've given your life, you've give them your time, your energy. I mean, your family has suffered because of what you have done in this, whatever this arena is that you're working in. And then you get into a season where your work is no longer good enough. You know, your boss and coworkers are talking about you and your work. I mean your, it could diminish how you view it, especially if your identity is wrapped up in your position or your title of what should do. See, that's the difference. If my identity is to wrapped up who I do versus who I am. That's right. And who I am, that changes everything. 

Chris [00:15:09] You know, JP, somebody one time said that when you die, I guarantee you, they said, on your tombstone, it is not gonna say your titles or what you accomplished, it's gonna say something about your relationships, something about you mother, your father, your brother, your wife, your sister, right? I mean, it is gonna say, and it's going to hopefully say something about about your identity, right. Here was a believer who walked with Jesus. You guys, I mean, so let me hear what. This feels like when you hear self-talk like this among those that come to your church, those that are in your class. I mean, it must kind of go, what is going on in this world? What is going in their head? Why are they believing the lion, Satan? Why are doing this? So what's your prognosis right now? Well, now let's start with the diagnosis. What? Where's this coming from? JP, you said that parent just makes a comment, a simple little throw away sometimes. Oh, you're always, you just not the smartest of the kids. You're just, oh, you not the brightest. Oh, he's a lot more good looking, whatever. And it's that throw away and we take it. Matt, why? 

Matt [00:16:33] I'll give you three examples from last night. I get out of class, I talk to three people from the end of class until I get to my car. The first guy is from an Asian background, shame on our culture, and he needed to rise up. So he got bad grades, his dad gave him a hard time, and so he revolted and he started partying. And somebody challenged him and said, hey, why don't you pray? And so, while he's praying, he has an experience, he ends up coming to Biola to study film. Okay, but he still has that background of his dad. He still has the hole in him. The next guy I run into on the sidewalk out here, He said, he's also a film major. He said my dream was to work, I won't tell you where. I say Hollywood. Yeah, in Hollywood, yeah. He got that internship. He hated it. And he said, now I don't even know what I'm gonna do. He graduates in May, in seven months. He has no idea what he's gonna do, he's just lost. And then I'm like, okay, this is heavy. I'm almost to my car. And then right over to this guy over there, and he goes, hey, you're Matt Williams, right? I go, yeah, he said yeah, I was the student here seven years ago. Graduates, he's living out in Riverside about an hour from here, running the business, and he goes, I'm just now making it. I can't buy a house. I moved back in with my parents. He's 30 years old. I can find somebody to marry me. He goes, can you pray for me? So it's all these performance things that start when we're very, very young. I mean, I have students, their first memory is their mom taking a dollhouse. She was two years old. Taking a dollhouse that her grandmother gave her for her second birthday and her mom took it and smashed it on the on the ground and said you don't deserve this. That's her very first memory. 

Chris [00:18:39] See what it is now we're getting into we are i mean this is theological biblical that's where we're going with it but it's also deeply psychological right i mean that's just where that those things have an impact on us and what you guys have found and what you guys are saying in this amazing book by the way i was going to show you a copy because it's coming out man and you guys need to check it out Finding Freedom in Jesus, the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ, Dr. J.P. Foster and Dr. Mal Williams, who both, by the way, I have mentored since they were young children, would be nothing. And you'd be nothing? I mean, let's just be honest about it. 

Speaker 6 [00:19:25] Hey, let's be real, Chris, right? We've all had moments where we thought, I wish somebody would just help me figure out this whole relationship thing. 

Chris [00:19:34] Sometimes it's not even marriage, right? It just might be a roommate or a dating relationship. 

Speaker 6 [00:19:39] Family, or even friendships. Yeah, and that's exactly why we offer free relationship advice through the Center for Marriage and Relationships. 

Chris [00:19:46] Yeah, it's not only free, but it's confidential, it biblical, it practical, and those who seek guidance early enough can often avoid huge problems later. 

Speaker 6 [00:19:56] Yeah, so if you're wrestling with something big or maybe there's just something small and you don't have to do it alone 

Chris [00:20:03] Yeah, I just know that you can connect with our team today, so just check the show notes for all the details. Because you guys have saw this repeatedly. You have spouses who have confirmed this with you that you guys had hit an issue, a hot button. Let me ask the maybe, I don't know, $50,000 question. Can somebody who really, truly doesn't understand that they are his, and therefore their identity is set, can they have healthy relationships? I mean Okay. Yes, of course. We know that, right? I mean, we all probably married and, you know, married up, first of all, and ours. 

Speaker 5 [00:20:52] We're married, wait wait wait 

Chris [00:20:57] That's one of the quickest answers, that's the one dollar question. Can you though, okay, let's just say that you are not really clicking with what God says you are, this self taught permeates you and this is where you guys are saying you can break that and you can not just thrive here but you can thrive with another 

JP [00:21:21] Well, I would say that if you don't have a healthy view of yourself, it's gonna create a pattern of unhealthy behavior and that's also gonna impact your relationship with people. You can't disconnect them. So if I'm unhealthy, my unhealthy aspects of my life is gonna end. So if don't think I'm worth anything or if I feel like I'm a failure, well then I'm gonna live that out. If I feel like I'm not beautiful, or I'm not loved, or can never be forgiven. How am I gonna handle mistakes in every aspect of my life? If we're friends and I make a mistake, if you're my boss or colleagues or business partners and I'm making a mistake and I don't know how to deal with being forgiven and I, I don't know how to deal and work through guilt or shame, that's gonna show up in how I show up. And so I would argue that this book actually could help make marriages and relationships better. Because if I know who I am, think about it. The negative self-talk and negative image I have of myself is gonna impact me as a husband, as a father, as a pastor, as professor, and any other room I show up in. So I need to deal with those aspects of my life. And the more and more I know I am in Christ, I know can be restored in Christ. Now I'm more confident in Christ I just gave you three layers of my book. Amen baby, no. 

Chris [00:22:42] I'll be freezing now. Yeah. Yeah, hold on. We got another podcast where you just preach I'm that don't have to do it in my living is there but then the address and JP it sounds to me like what ends up Happening is we start a cycle Sometimes if we don't deal with this where the things that I brought into my marriage are now going to impact me with I'm not good enough. I'm oh I can't be forgiven and then you have kids who I mean you're going to therefore almost continue or perpetuate that cycle. F-O-V-E. 

Matt [00:23:13] So use people. 

Chris [00:23:15] It's a famous saying. That is a famous thing. So what stood out to you guys as you wrote this book for your own self-talk? Like I'm sure you're kind of working on a couple of these going, okay, I might want to talk to myself about this one. Which one stand out to is going to be most impactful of the 21 chapters? I mean, I hear guilt. I hear shame. I here forgiveness. You're forgiven You're logged. You are redeemed. I mean, there are so many amazing identity state events. Which one do you think is, like, still is a star? 

Matt [00:23:50] Yeah, go ahead, Doctor, the one that blew me away. I mean, rescued is a key word for me. I mean I was just plucked out of a family that was kind of messed up. And the Lord said, I'm gonna take this one, I'm going to use you. But the one, as we worked through this book, that I was like, whoa, was the word free. Oh? If you ask anybody on the street what's free mean, they're gonna say it's free to do whatever you want, including in the church. Because I ask my students all the time. What does that mean? What does it mean to be free? Free to do whatever you want. So the way we wrote this book, first thing we did is we got a concordance. We looked up every use of all 21 words throughout the entire Bible. Every single use, read through every single one and then started categorizing. And then we went to the dictionaries. 

Chris [00:24:44] First of all, you guys have got to find something else with your time, man. What you're doing now, I'm watching the Dodgers sitting there, and I'm worried about that. You guys are going to concordances, all right, whatever. That was shameful, I'll just be honest, I took that. All right, keep going. So here's this hope for you. 

Speaker 5 [00:25:01] That's my idea. 

Matt [00:25:04] A lot of terms too. 

Speaker 5 [00:25:06] Yeah, that's one of the terms. 

Matt [00:25:08] Yeah, but free, I thought I knew what it meant, because I teach Gospel and John, and free is a big word in there. But as I went back, it was actually the first year, so the word, in Genesis. God says what? You're free to eat of any of these trees, any of the fruit, except this one. And I saw that pattern continue throughout the Bible. So freedom isn't to do whatever you want. Freedom is to do within a parameter. Interesting. So I think of a bowling alley. I mean, I'm not a great bowler. I love it when the little- Bumpers. The bunkers are up there for bumpers. Yeah, I mean I can throw it wherever I want and it's gonna come back in. But if the bumpers aren't there, I'm gonna throw gutter balls. And so a lot of times, we think I'm free. I can do whatever I want. And all of a sudden we're going down this path into greed or into lust. And now we're lost. And then, you know, you talk about relationships. If you're into greed, how are you gonna be giving to your wife or your husband or to your friends or to you kids? So freedom is free from sin, from slavery to sin, from evil, from Satan, free from all of that. And free to listen to God and to follow Him in His ways. 

Chris [00:26:35] It's just such a subtle but important little twist, isn't it? So it's so free, I heard rescue. I always think my favorite verse of all time, Colossians, that he rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of light, the kingdom of his son, and it's a powerful word. So you could literally take one of these words and it could be Cool! I mean, it gives you a week on one. Just one word, free or rescued. What's the, what one kind of hit you? 

JP [00:27:11] Is there one that you could think of that we read we actually talked about the free because the boundaries, you know Sometimes we think that uh, what we've written you have we have children, right? So as a father I Love my kids But I create because I love them. I give them boundaries parameters and guidelines In order for the because I loved him and so I think sometimes we think of freedom Yes, we have free will but God gave them free will But also created boundaries in order for them to thrive. Yeah their life. That's the key word right there. Thrive and flourish. 

Chris [00:27:45] We have we don't likes them times them. Oh trees. No, that's the evil one kind of go But you can't go to do that way you can drink this 

JP [00:28:00] or smoke, yeah, whatever, do you really? So he really say that, and the next thing, before you find it, you're hiding from him shame, full of shame. For me, what term was victorious? Victorious. Oh, victorious. And I think that even in this context of how does my image of how I see myself, my identity of how say myself, impact my vertical relationship with God is gonna impact my horizontal relationships with other people. Victorious is a key word, which it is, then that has a big impact on my relationship, how I see myself, but also my relationships with other people. So if I'm married and I am 16 years strong, amen. Amen. And I also have to see how, how does victorious show up in my marriage and my life. So no matter where you are, as you journey and travel through life, you're gonna be in different seasons of your life and you're going to face hardship. And I don't think people. They don't, we don't pay attention up. Jesus says they're gonna be, the Bible's not, you know, hide away from the fact that as Christians we're gonna experience trouble. We're gonna have some trouble. And I think that knowing that you are victorious going into trouble makes a massive difference in how you handle trouble. I don't know any relationship that has not gone through hardship, right? You make the commitment to be with your spouse for the rest of your life, trouble's gonna come. And it's in various forms, but knowing I'm victorious, when you go through the term victorious, you start to see an aspect of God's essence, character, and nature, and how he responds in battles with people he's in covenant relationship with. And so I get to see myself now, when I look at it from Old to New Testament, I get see, okay, I'm in the Old Testament. This is God's character, his essence, his nature, and how He deals with His people. What's He requiring from His people and His people? Listen, I mean, in Joshua chapter one. When I look at, see, when I look at how God speaks to Moses, my servant is dead. I mean, she was as Joshua. He literally tells Joshua what he has to do. The first chapter. Don't turn from my word to the left, to the right. That your way will be prosperous, meant to say to my word day and night. And now we see Joshua's, the key to his success is his willingness to be obedient to what God said. So he has the embrace and embody God's word. And then, when he goes to battle, he's victorious. The key is, he didn't fight the battle. You look at King David, he couldn't fight these battles. They had the goal to the battle line. Be obedient. Be obedient, but God prospered them. God fought the battles for them. And you look at Paul's life in the New Testament. Paul, I mean, you look it, I mean he has a whole ship wrecked, flogged, I mean in prison. I mean you name it, but he prospered. And I'm not talking about prosperity, I'm talking about he advanced, he was still able to do what God called him to do. He was still to fulfill God's call, his purpose, his passion, he didn't lose it. He was willing to, you know, when he says, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, it's not, four or two never tried in my life and I'm gonna go dunk a basketball, probably not gonna happen, right? I can all things, Christ is gonna strengthen me, you're not gonna get up there, brother, but I. 

Chris [00:31:13] Even in 6'2", most of you ain't gonna get up there. 

JP [00:31:17] But it is his ability to realize that when I have a lot and when I had a little, I can do all things through Christ's trance and I'm able to live victoriously in Christ doing what he's called me to do, no matter what I face. He said, look, I notice like to have plenty, I notice I like to be in lack. So to me, for me, it is in my life as a professional, as a pastor, as a professor, as husband, as father, I need to know every day, if God is with me, I can be victorious. 

Chris [00:31:44] There's such, if you make such a big distinction between success, which our culture talks about, I mean, the student you talked with, I won't be a success, I need this honor shame thing, versus victorious. I mean it's subtle, but the difference is, victorious doesn't necessarily equate to what we would say is worldly success, and you would get off on that, oh, he's Promise me. I mean these these scripture kind of says I'm gonna be and we We this is where those subtle little lies can lead us to 

JP [00:32:19] Wait a minute, what is success? The thing about this, victorious, complete dependence on God. I can't be victorious as a believer without complete. Jesus said I could do nothing on my own. If Jesus said that. And total dependence on god. Now let me bring it to the practical. So if I get sick, if my body is literally sick, Can I still do what God called me to do? I'm facing illness. I'm face a hardship in this moment in my life. But what I'm gonna do is, God, I know you called me. You give me these gifts and talents. I know You wanna use them. I'm going to be totally dependent on You. I had losses. I lost two brothers. God, I lost to brothers. I'm supposed to be leading this church, teaching these students in this classroom. How in the world am I gonna do this? I gotta be a husband. I have to be a father. I'm broken. I'm grieving. How am I supposed to do this. Victorious means. Each day you wake up, be totally dependent on God. So now the responsibility was, okay, God, you got me today. Okay, God. I'm putting my total, total, okay in this room. I have to leave what things I have do and that makes a massive difference. Makes a massive. 

Matt [00:33:33] What we did in the book too, I mean you use the stories of Joshua and Paul in the Bible We also have a little QR code with a video testimony. Simply victorious. We chose actually two people for that one 

Chris [00:33:47] So in the book, you use hit the QR code and then you'll see a video of someone who's hearing. 

JP [00:33:52] Some it's deeper than that. It's deeper in it. So Each person that's in the videos each turn has a testimonial video and the testimonial Video is a person who have had who who went through the book and overcame So they did so I didn't feel loved then I read the book I went through their exercises now This is my testimony on how god has changed the way that I view myself in this situation based on Me apply this word to my life 

Chris [00:34:20] Both you guys are professors, so you have students as well, not just your congregations, but students are a little bit easier to do tests on, right? I mean, so at the beginning of the semester, they're writing this. You make them go through some of these things. Do they change at the end? What have you seen? Like, do their testimonials are the guy that says, I'm not worth... 

Matt [00:34:43] I shouldn't even be here. I'll read you one, okay? Here it is. This is after 12 weeks going through these terms. My mental tape was very self-critical, negative, and toxic. It was harmful for me, obviously. Now, after 12 week, the mental tape is practically gone. If it does start to play, I don't believe it anymore, and I switch over to my identity at Crest. 

Chris [00:35:11] See, okay, we could just drop the mics and it right there. Honestly, I mean, listen, I talk about Victorious. It doesn't matter how many people pick up this book from that point forward. You change one. One kid, I that kid's now trajectory in life, but in relationships is changed. That's gotta feel good. 

JP [00:35:37] It's incredible. I would say that, you know, I can't help everyone, but I had to help someone and I help one We can help one person at a time. But if you think about that, so this is a this is young adult Right. He's going through college and now he's gonna go off to be a husband a father and a professional But his mindset Going into that is completely different. He is going in there confident in Christ So now he is going to go into his relationships whether it's friends, colleagues, co-workers, probably his spouse with a different type of competence and resilience when he goes into those relationships. So it prepares, not only can it restore you, if you're gone, do you have trauma and baggage from your past, that can also, I would say, propel you. So it's preparing you. I'm gonna say it this way now, can I please remind you? I like, I'm liking the piece right now. It's preparing for what God has prepared for you. So when I look at the things that God's gonna do my life in the future. When I know who I am, I'm almost unstoppable. 

Matt [00:36:40] I told my students last night they're actually working through this book right now. They share their testimonies of, you know, the struggles in their life. I told them last night, I said, you know, hey, I mean, that kid that his dad was really giving him a hard time. I said can you imagine if you had this book when you were 13, what a difference it would have made. And then I challenged them. 24 students sitting there, and I said hey, how long are you guys going to live? One girl goes, 80 more years. So you're going to be 100. OK, cool. Imagine if every person that you minister to, you can teach them their identity, how it would transform their life too. Just catch a vision that this could explode. I mean, I know you've ordered 2,500 copies for your church. 

JP [00:37:32] We're gonna, you're just gonna give it to everyone. You have to find a way to reach as many people as you can. We're going to preach it. You do it, we're gonna do, there's a host of things, 21 day fast. So, fasting for 21 days on your identity in Christ is, I don't even know how you stay the same. After doing that, we are fasting and doing that at the same time. We're doing a series, and then we're going on to life groups. We have discipleship groups. So we're have our discipleship group go through it. So I think 2026. It is. 

Chris [00:38:03] Be transformed. Imagine just after one kid, and you've only just listed one, I mean this is happening over and over, and it doesn't take 12 weeks, you just happened to go from the beginning of the semester to the very end, I can't imagine what that would do for Faith Central, what it would do for the churches in our neighborhoods, the churches that don't really. Focus on some of this idea of self-taught for whatever reason, and then for the broader journey. 

Matt [00:38:39] Well, Faithful Central is in the middle of South Central LA. 

Chris [00:38:43] Eagle Wood. Eagle Wood, baby. All I know is they're going to be rooting for the Dodgers tonight, I'm just saying. Doesn't matter when this comes out. I just hope. Well, I know they are. I know J.P. Hey, Coach. Come on, man. Day. 

Matt [00:39:00] You think about transforming that church, but then the community that is around that church. 

Chris [00:39:07] Within the family community, yeah. See, that's the thing about the identity that we started, that, you know, this idea that we've started with. It transforms you, I get that, and that, I mean, right there, that is just a win. But what it does to your family, right? Your relationship with your parents, your relationship with you spouse, with your kids. That is where, for me as a psychologist, we look for things that are transformative, right? We want to see, oh, okay, this will help you learn better, this'll help your memory, this'll your emotions. But to see changes like that, this is where people in the field sit up and go, wait a minute, you got this guy to change his self-talk with that? Yeah, or this person can do this And you know, that does kind of bring up another element of your book I think that's powerful is kind of connecting head and heart, man. I mean, that's kind of what this is doing. 

JP [00:40:16] Right. I think one of the issues when it comes to spiritual formation is getting it from information to transformation. And so, you know, especially in seminaries, we want these things are like, is it passed? 

Chris [00:40:35] Why can't I come up with, you know, it's just so frustrating. My self-talk right now is, man, you gotta listen to the people like that, Muhammad. I love you. What if I steal the things that you say and say, one time I was thinking, if I take information into transfer, I'm sorry, keep going. 

JP [00:40:58] That's it. Hey, just take it. It's all for its free. But the thing about this, if I the hardest part is, is, you know, sometimes you want to be very intellectual. And I think it's seminary. You want to you want to be brilliant, you want to be smart, you want to be wise, you want you want it. You have to learn your theology because how you how you want your understanding of theology is going to is going to impact or show up in how you do ministry, how you do life. So theology is very important. Right. But if we just stay there, it's a problem. That level, that cognitive level. So even in preaching, there's an aspect of preaching called closet work. So it's when I take the information that I have received and I can now go and spend time with God in prayer. That's when allow the Holy Spirit to work in me. So I don't preach sermons that I haven't spent time in the closet praying for God to do something in meek. That's how you preach with conviction. That's why you preach what passion. For some 

Chris [00:41:51] I would tell you, that's why you're successful and I know it's a tough word, but still what I'm saying though, if all pastors, if half our pastors could learn to do the closeting, right to go, I need to get and close that door and it takes a million. 

JP [00:42:10] To know because you aren't perfect. Me coming from up here theologically to in here to spend time with God says I'm dependent on him. See the difference? Oh, well, yeah. Because I can write and talk and do it up here, but it doesn't mean that what I'm saying out loud hasn't had transformative work in my life. That's the key. So when I'm able to give passionate messages, or counsel people, they can understand. I'm not coming from a place of like, I'm up here and you're down here. We're here. I'm telling you what the word God can do and has done in and through my own life. That makes a massive difference. Okay, ready? 

Chris [00:42:50] Yes. The number one way in my field that we read non-authenticity, people are not being authentic, is the difference between what they say and what they do. And what is going to preach more to me is by watching, our kids, I mean we can tell all we want, but they're going to watch your behavior. I'll tell you if I'm sitting in your church I'm gonna look at and listen to the words you're saying, but I'm going to look to see, without even thinking about it, I'm a look to say, is there a connection between what he's saying and his life? And if there's not, I'ma walk away going, that boy is Jimson. 

JP [00:43:32] No, I agree. Being authentic. I agree, I met with the parents a few weeks ago and we did Q and A and I told the parents, I said, listen, your kids are listening to what you do. That's awesome. And the room got quiet. I said I know you're telling your son this, I know your telling your daughter this, I know we have an issue with that. I said but here's the thing, I need to ask you this question. Your kids are listen to what do. That's exactly right. So. They're not just gonna let you say whatever you want to and then watch you live however you want and you're requiring Requiring stuff of them that you're not even living up to yourself Kids especially this generation. They think they talk back. I don't know where that came from, but they talk bang now We never did that. Yeah, we couldn't My head be rolling down the bowling It's a whole different generation 

Speaker 5 [00:44:20] Yeah 

JP [00:44:22] Back in the day, our parents didn't even have to say anything, it's just a list. It's just that look. You want to say that again? It was just me hearing the belt being... 

Chris [00:44:29] Self and time out. I was I had to hear was dad's on his way home. Oh, where's the bell? 

JP [00:44:40] It's these moments where we have to allow the information we're receiving from God to transform our lives. That's why it goes from head knowledge to transformation and it has to be personalized. Here's the problem, I can teach it to you. Yeah. 

Chris [00:44:54] I can lecture you until you can't have any more breath. 

JP [00:44:59] You have to personalize it. 

Chris [00:45:06] Hey, did you know that money is the number one source of conflict in marriage, Lisa? I know that. 

Speaker 6 [00:45:12] I know it is. Studies show that nearly one in three couples say finances cause the most stress in their relationship. 

Chris [00:45:19] Yeah. And for us, unity and clarity around this issue is really key. And that's why I love the help we've been getting from Colby Gilmore and Ron Blue Trust. 

Speaker 6 [00:45:29] Boy, I love that they really take the biblical concepts of money and to financial planning and they serve couples at all income levels, whether you only have a little money or you have a lot. It doesn't matter. They're there on your team and they're not selling products either. I love their only goal is to help you steward your resources. 

Chris [00:45:52] Wisely. Yeah, and as poor people, we've experienced valuable advice. 

Speaker 6 [00:45:56] Not anymore, because there are financial plans. 

Chris [00:45:59] Is a real blessing. So you'll find the details in all the show notes, Lisa. 

Speaker 6 [00:46:05] Yeah, so if you want more peace and unity in your finances, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore at Ronald Blue Trust. Check him out. 

JP [00:46:18] If you don't personalize it, internalize it. I know you have multiple examples where you could share from the information to transformation. Well, what it says. 

Matt [00:46:28] I have a bad back. I have for decades. And finally, a few summers ago, I said, I'm gonna do some robotics. So I went to physical therapy and he told me all about my muscles that were causing it and he gave me stretches and exercises to do. Now, would that have been enough to have that information? If I would have gone home and said, oh, I know what causes my back to hurt. I know which stretches I should do. I know when exercise I should. Don't do em, don't do them your back still hurts. So I did though, religiously, every day, and completely went away. All of my back pain was gone. And then you know what I did? 

Chris [00:47:12] We're not like the basketball. 

Matt [00:47:13] I quit doing my exercise. You quit doing? And it came, my pain came back. See? Okay. So the key is not just to get the information, but to actually put it into practice. So what we've done in this book is we've, I mean, you know, in psychology, mindfulness, breathing exercises, and a lot of times they'll talk about one, two, three, four, three, two... 4-3-2-1 or the box in the Navy, the SEALs. What we've done is we've put words instead of counting to four. So redeemed. I have it down here. Yeah, that's it. We breathe in, bought with a price. You gotta do it with me, JP. Come on. We always do this. Okay, I'm running. In our videos at the end, we practice this and we always go, bought a price, set free for God. And so for two, three, four minutes a day, you're breathing in the truth. Of who we are in Christ, and for my students, that's probably the biggest transformation. 

Chris [00:48:20] Because it puts something practical in it, instead of going, okay, I have freedom, right, I'm redeemed. It actually says, yeah, you are, but it takes it into this. 

JP [00:48:37] It brings it in and internalizes it. So I was at Heritage Cafe, one of our students were going into the library and he said, he said I'll talk to Foster, man. They said the book. I'm like, okay, where's this going? So Lane tells me, he says, I didn't realize the breathing. He said, I didn't think something's happening. Like, you can feel it's making a massive difference in this trash. And he said to me, He said, now I'm taking my time because these, I didn't, first I was like, these breathing exercises, but now he's like, let me slow down because he can literally feel, but think about this. You talked about your healing process, right? You talking about physical therapy. What about the person who's healed who still walks with a nip? I don't think you heard me. 

Chris [00:49:29] Say it again, Pastor. Well, the way we're healed and the limb don't go together. It's all right. 

JP [00:49:34] We've seen some of the greatest athletes who have then suffered an injury. They went to the doctor, they've had x-rays, they've have MRIs, and they are completely healed. They are physically healed. They go out on the field, or on the court, or whatever arena they're in, and their performance doesn't say that they're healed. There's something happening upstairs. Thank you. It is not that they are not healed physically, is that mentally they're still wrestling with the fact that they had the injury. So the doctor's telling you're healed, everything's fine, but their mind hasn't caught up with or agreed with the report from their doctor. And so their performance is not the same because they're mentally disconnected from their. 

Chris [00:50:21] That's a great analogy. And so when I, just because I happen to know something that I'm forgiven, if I'm not doing and practicing that, right, or I'm limping into that. 

Matt [00:50:36] So let me give you the best example I have of forgiveness. 

JP [00:50:40] Oh, watch out. 

Matt [00:50:42] Gonna be sit up in my seat. 

Speaker 5 [00:50:44] Thank you very much. 

Chris [00:50:45] And get a drink of water for you. 

Matt [00:50:47] When we finished each chapter, first person I sent it to was my mom, 87 years old, okay? She's not theologically trained, okay. She has some issues in her life, 87. And she read every chapter. And then when we finished the book, I sent her the whole book together and she read it from cover to cover. And then she would say, I don't remember everything I read, excuse 87. She would start over. She called me one day and said, I just read your chapter on forgiveness. I guess I'm gonna have to call my sister. She hadn't talked to her for over a year. I said, mom, why don't you talk to her? What happened? She didn't remember. She just knew that she was mad at her. And there was unforgiveness. Some limp. Yep, there was a limp. They said she had to call her sister. So that's the getting rid of the limp. Forgiven people forgive. Hopeful people have hope. Redeem people, redeem. Rescue people, rescue. Now I'm preaching. 

JP [00:51:48] Come on, come on, we get the organ going in a minute. Is this being said? About this thing about what you're saying because I think we missed the fact that she's 87 years old. That's right. I think I think We just missed it. I thank you. It's not too late. It is never too late It's one of the hardest things to do is to forgive. It sometimes it's easier to say Oh, yeah, I understand God can forgive but it's harder one for us to forgive Other people but here's the one that a lot of our students wrestle with and parishioners wrestle with forgiving themselves. What if it was you? What if was you. And forgiveness means you have to do something with the guilt. And I think that's what people hold on to. But again, if at 87 years old, now we've heard a 20 year old and we've had an 87 year old. Yeah, that's right. Both their lives have been transformed. And it's not any, we didn't come up with a formula. It's simple. It's God's word. I mean, I don't have anything more powerful than God's word. 

Chris [00:52:55] Well, that's where you're getting to every piece of this identity is not you guys aren't going into the cyclet Did you know you're not coming over to me saying? Hey, how do people form there? Did you go right to the sword guys working? 

JP [00:53:07] And this is for me, huge. In the practical section with personal reflection and devotional, there is a moment in there where you yourself now have to spend time with the words you just heard and allow the Holy Spirit to work. So the Holy spirit's now working in you, through you, with the truth. So now you're having to deal with the lies you've been told, and then the truth you've just heard, and the Holy Spirits is working in it. Then you get to this point where you can. Thank you. You yourself, if you do the exercise, you have to write down what's the definition of being in love now? We deal with love in the culture. What's the culture say about love? What's The Old Testament say about Love? What's New Testament say about love, what's God's overall framework about love and here's a simple definition. Now how does this truth of what God said now impact the way you see me in love? 

Chris [00:54:02] You see, I mean, you could just end right there. That's the book. That's what you guys are home for. But it really is doing something deeper. It's pointing you back to something. It's like, read the book, great. Take away the skills, great, but now I have something that I can build this house on. I have a place. And the fact that, you know, loved people or love and rescued, rescue. And you guys draw it to the source of where it's at. I think that's the most coolest thing ever. Plus your practical way of doing it. 20 or 87, guess what? You're gonna find yourself in any of that situation and you need this. You guys, I'm just so pleased to have you here. First of all, we could just do another couple of hours. I mean, we can just take any one of these identity statements. And just spend, I'm like you guys did, I'm sure you spend weeks on one. And it just is so transformative. And what a great work. Hey, this book coming out November 4th, sometime in 2025 at the end. I'll just say this, you talk about, you know, a great Christmas gift, you give it to people, but JP, I mean, to hear you're doing this and the number that you bought just for those in your church. And it's not because it's something you wrote, it's because of what it does. The impact. And the impact. What it can do to someone's life after you read it is. And you guys have seen it, you've lived it, this isn't something that you're hoping happens, this is something you've seen in your students and in your peoples that are in those pews going, wait a minute, this works. This is powerful. And it's changed the way I see myself. I no longer wanna play that mental tape anymore. Y'all, thanks for not only coming by here but for just putting something out for the church that is gonna be so transformative. 

JP [00:56:08] And I think, you know, you sit next to the holidays, they can buy as a gift people they love. But you might want to buy some for some of your enemies as well, you never know. The low mic test. 

Chris [00:56:23] I don't know, but I don't believe to that co-worker, you're like, you want this boy to read something you're having trouble with, just hand it. I've been thinking about you. 

JP [00:56:35] Ignore forgiveness comes upon you. Unless they'll curse you and disrespectfully, go ahead and bless somebody. Let's do it, man. And if I don't remember you had trouble with it, just go ahead. 

Chris [00:56:45] More that you have trouble with than you might have, right? You might buy more books out of it. Hey, it's been great to have you guys. Thank you for being here. Thank you writing this just amazing book. Again, one more time, Finding Freedom. I think it's a powerful word, but it's finding freedom in Jesus, which is really where we're going and where you guys wanna land and what makes me kinda so jazzed as a psychologist is that's the foundation. That's where we gonna go to And that's where we got it. And with, so awesome, thank you Dr. J.P. Foster, thank you, Dr. Matt Williams. You guys are loved and respected around here by a lot of people, and y'all check them out. They have, you can go check out websites and find the book and support this ministry that they're doing, and if there's a little bit left over, support the CMR. You go to cmr.biola.edu and. Once you give money to Faith Central, once you give money, I don't know, to Dr. Williams over here, save a little bit for us at the CMR. We're fully donor funded. No, we love you guys. Thank you. 

Mandy [00:57:54] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.