What’s REALLY Haunting Your Marriage?

In this special Halloween-themed episode of The Art of Relationships, Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace uncover the “marriage monsters” that quietly creep into relationships when we’re not paying attention. From unspoken expectations and avoidance to contempt and emotional disengagement, these hidden habits can quietly erode intimacy, trust, and connection.

With their signature blend of biblical wisdom, psychological insight, and real-life experience, Chris and Alisa share how to identify these relationship “haunts” and—more importantly—how to fight back with humility, honesty, and grace.

Whether you’re navigating challenges with your spouse, fiancé, or close relationships, this episode offers hope-filled, practical tools to turn your “haunted house” back into a safe haven.

Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAL0NYvpIqI

Key Topics Covered:

• The “Ghost of Unspoken Expectations” — how hidden assumptions breed frustration and resentment.
• The “Skeleton of Avoidance” — why silence and peace-at-any-cost can quietly destroy connection.
• The “Monster of Contempt” — the biggest predictor of divorce and how to replace it with appreciation.
• The “Phantom of Emotional Disengagement” — how busyness and neglect drain intimacy and what to do about it.

Resources Mentioned:

• Repair Checklist (Gottman Institute) — Practical statements to de-escalate conflict and build understanding.
• FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway – Monterey, CA — Three days of teaching, connection, and renewal for couples.
• The Art (And Science) of Relationships — A 7-lesson online course from the CMR combining Scripture and research-backed insights on communication, conflict, and connection.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Transcript

Chris [00:00:00] Hey, in this special Halloween episode, we're going to dig into the marriage monsters that creep into relationships when we're not paying attention. And these are the hidden issues, resentments, bad habits, poor communication patterns that quietly erode connection, intimacy, and trust will impact four of the most haunting issues in your marriage, including one that research shows is the single greatest predictor of course. So from a biblical, psychological, and practical lens, we'll explore how to identify these marriage destroyers and even better how to fight back with truth, humility, and grace. Hey, don't worry. It's not all doom and gloom. There's hope, humor, and practice. Go help to turn your haunted house into a safe haven again. 

Mandy [00:00:43] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships Let's get right into it. 

Chris [00:00:54] Hey, welcome back to another Art of Relationships podcast. I'm Chris. This is the best co-host in the world, Lisa Grace. Lisa, you're too. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, no, no. You're just so good at this. I mean, these things that we talk about related to relationships and marriage, all things relationships, is really something that is right up your alley. I'm just gonna say, you may not have necessarily gotten your PhD in psychology. But you have a PhD in how to run healthy, good relationships. I got my MRS in psychology. Well, you got your MRS of psychology with me. But you certainly know, man, how to talk about all things relationships. So I'm just grateful to be able to do this with you. It's really fun because it helps us reconsider some things that we're doing wrong. And every week, we're like, well, yeah, I got to work and see how I'm doing in this area. 

Alisa [00:01:50] Yeah, it does end up kind of holding up a mirror to ourselves, which is probably really healthy for us in the long run. 

Chris [00:01:58] It is, because I used to hold up that mirror to you and say, look woman, you need to fix what's in that mirror. And you know what, that never turned out very well for me, I'll be honest with you, because I figured out, whoa, the problem is on the other side of the mirror. 

Alisa [00:02:13] I know you do. 

Chris [00:02:14] Well, hey, this is really a cool special issue. What are the four big things that we should talk about, at least, that haunt marriages, right? That mess up marriages. These things can come out of nowhere, but many of them are also building, right, throughout a marriage. And so let's talk about that in this special edition. What are key... Uh... Problems that we find in marriages. We found in our own marriage at various times. We still have to fight sometimes. And sometimes we still have to fight. So let's do it. Lisa, why don't you start us off with something that for you would be... Let's talk about the ghost of hidden expectations. 

Alisa [00:02:59] Yes. Unseen expectations. Unspoken. And unspoken. Yeah, expectations. And I think for couples, Chris, a lot of us, we don't even realize we have expectations about certain things until they go unmet, right? It's like all of a sudden you realize, wow, I didn't really like that. I didn't even realize I felt that strongly about it. But where do some of those, where do you think some of the expectations come from? What's the source of those I'll speak. 

Chris [00:03:27] Well, for me, you know, to personalize it, you know, I guess I had a certain expectation. Like, I remember when we were first married, I just expected without kind of knowing it, that you would love sports because I love sports and you would want to be, you know, the biggest Dodger fan and the Denver Bronco fan and LA Laker fan. And I guess I was a little bit kind of maybe, I don't know, disappointed when I realized you couldn't name a single player other than John Elway on the Denver Punks. And we had a 

Alisa [00:04:06] We had a dog named John Elwig. 

Chris [00:04:09] Well, Elway. We called her Allie. It was a female. We didn't know that. Well, actually, you gave me the dog when we were engaged. You remember that? I sure do. And we named it Allie, Allie and one I had an expectation was I didn't really want a pet. Really? I never knew that. Yeah, I'm like, you know. 

Alisa [00:04:32] You know what? They take a lot of time. That's so funny. After 38 years of marriage, I never knew that you didn't want that done. 

Chris [00:04:43] You know who wanted that? He learned something new. That dog more than I did was my roommate, Kurt. He absolutely trained Ellie, taught it to fetch, you know, tennis balls. But it was a her. And it was her. And he did, I mean, all day long, he worked with that dog and loved it. We should have given it to him. At least the unmet expectations, like you just said, it's sometimes we don't know them until they go unmet. Like, I really... You know, like unmet would be, let's say, I think the house should be clean all the time. 

Speaker 4 [00:05:16] Mm-hmm. 

Chris [00:05:17] And now we're in a marriage, and the house isn't clean all the time, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, I thought that we would have this, the expectation we'd have our house nice and clean. 

Alisa [00:05:29] Or I thought you were gonna keep the house clean and that I would do like the outside jobs. I thought, you would do the grocery shopping because that's what my mom always did. I thought I would take care of the car because that what my dad always did, yeah. So it's those expectations can come from your family of origin. It can come from past relationships that you've had. It can from our culture. Our culture says that you should do this because you're the husband. Or you should do this because you're the wife. And the crazy thing about it is that those things can change over time. 

Chris [00:06:06] Well, at least that's good. 

Alisa [00:06:07] They're not even constant. The things that are big in our culture now are different from even 10 years ago, much less than from when we were dating. 

Chris [00:06:15] Yeah, I like that because, like you mentioned, family of origin, right? Your dad always, let's just do it again here with personalizing this, your dad always kept the yard. He did. Perfect, right. I mean, I remember, you know, you talking about it, it was just, but it never dawned on me or you that that was an expectation because, yeah, I cut our grass, I had five brothers, we always traded off and growing up, right, but I figured. Grass yards meant nothing to me. 

Alisa [00:06:48] I didn't care. You traded off with your brother. So it wasn't weird to you in your mind that you mowed the lawn once a month. 

Chris [00:06:56] Oh, it wasn't weird at all. In fact, I remember the first time this unmet expectation came up, you come home in our first little house together and you're like, do you think you're going to mow the lawn? And I'm like, I don't know. I haven't really thought about it. Why? You went, what do you mean why? Have you looked at our lawn? I went, no, not really. She goes, come here, let me show you. And the lawn was horrible. I mean, just when you pointed out, I mean it was so tall the grass that neighborhood children, toddlers could get lost. You know, they show up on milk cartons. Have you seen this child? And they're in our grass, right? They're in their front yard. Front yard. And that expectation you had, I think, Lisa, was you had to talk about, like, well, Chris, I mean, I could get out there and you did one time. You were pregnant and we had a push. Yeah. And I come around the corner. From work, and I see you six and a half, seven months pregnant, pushing the hand held mower with no motor on it, and cutting the grass pregnant. I'm like. 

Alisa [00:07:59] I'm a Texas woman, of course I'm going to get out there. 

Chris [00:08:03] Yeah, no, it was really bad. I had to call you. I called you in like this. I mean, come here Lisa I just got to tell you something, man 

Alisa [00:08:11] I think you were a little more angry. 

Chris [00:08:13] No, I wasn't. I was like, Lise, come here. You had grass everywhere, and you're like, what? And sweat. And you're pregnant. Grass stains on my body. Come here. I said, Lisa, just for one second, have you thought about what everybody else in this neighborhood, all the men and women out there, think about it right now. And you're, like, what do you mean? I go... Look at you. You're seven months pregnant and they're going, where's the man? Where's the guy that's now pregnant? That's the main job. Yeah. And I was like, Lisa, I'm so disappointed right now. You can't do this. Look how bad the lawn looks. You missed all these spots. You need to get out there and work harder. That's been horrible. 

Alisa [00:08:56] That would have been bad. 

Chris [00:08:57] That would have been bad instead. 

Alisa [00:08:58] Oh, go ahead. No, you do it. Well, I think part of what made that so frustrating for us in the beginning is that I didn't really express that expectation. You know, never it was. We just never talked about it. No, we didn't. And that's what we're talking about is the ghost of unexpressed expectations. So they can go unexposed because you're not even aware that you have them. I think another reason they can on unexpoused is maybe in our family that we grew up Maybe we didn't really have a voice, maybe we weren't really taught how to share what was on our heart, you know, maybe were afraid to because if you did, then you got shut down, you got blamed, you got punished, somehow it came back to you negative that, oh, that's not good. That was 

Chris [00:09:48] It was clear that your family of origin, great family, all that, but in this area you really couldn't. Yeah, I think especially my dad, with my dad. You couldn't really share negatives. So here you are feeling what, I mean you see the lawn and you're like, what? 

Alisa [00:10:04] Frustrated and becoming resentful and they're like can you not see it that for heaven's sakes I sure wasn't going to ask you or tell you about it and so really that leads to a principle that we talk about when it comes to expectations and it's this, expectations without communication leads to frustration and it also leads to bitterness and resentment So you've really got to get to a place. Where you can express your expectations. 

Chris [00:10:35] At least I think we finally figured this out. By the way, I think it's a pretty easy, well, I don't know if it was easy, but for us, eventually what we did is we just decided when it comes to the grass, we'll just hire the neighborhood kid, you know, and wait until our kid turns six and then we'll get him out there. But we just hired somebody eventually and it worked out. But at least I thing what happens, that ghost of unspoken expectations. And you said the communication is the key, right? And it's hard. It was hard to kind of, I think eventually we got to a point where I'm like, Lisa, what's going on here, man? I mean, what is this? What's so frustrating for you? Or why are you this way or whatever? And I think you finally were able to start finding your voice and say, Chris, I just, look, man, I do the house, I work, but the outside, I'll do it, but we just have to figure out who should do it. Otherwise, I'm getting resentful. 

Alisa [00:11:39] And so maybe a practical way to address your unexpressed expectations is first of all to identify your expectation. If something's happening and you're regularly feeling like, mm, that's unsettling for me, I don't like that, then that's usually a sign that you have an unmet expectation. And so identify, what is my expectation about the line? What is my expectations about how we're gonna spend? Our vacation time, our down time, 

Chris [00:12:08] money that we have from my dad that came every Christmas. You had an expectation that was yours because he had your name on the envelope and I had expectation that it was mine with my envelope but I also expected yours to be ours. 

Alisa [00:12:23] It was even something that we had to do with, we just had a big family vacation this last spring. And we took all of our kids, all of green kids, there were like 11 or 12 of us in a house for a whole week, all together with three kids, five and under, so it wasn't necessarily relaxing, but it was fun. But what we did is we all sat down and took time to think about, what is it that I really want to happen during this vacation. And so a great formula, if you're looking for a formula to use, is this, to filling the blanks. I feel blank, and then I need, what's the positive need that you have? It's like, I feel unsettled and a little embarrassed about our house when the lawn goes un-mowed and it's not neat and tidy. I need the lawn. To look nice, to look kind of, I don't want to say manicured, that sounds kind of overly, you know, anal about it, but I do, I like it to look neat and tidy. And so when it's not, I feel unsettled, I'm a little embarrassed, like our neighbors are not happy with us. And so can we come up with a solution? That either you do it, I do it or we pay some bit. And that's where we landed on it. But it took identifying that expectation and then saying, I feel like this and fill in the blank when it's not. And then what's the positive need? 

Chris [00:14:03] Yeah, and so with the vacation, we sat down and said, look, here's one that we asked, what do you guys want? Do you have an expectation of being alone on the vacation? Taking the kids, do we, you know, how much time do we get to rest together? And you said, remember, hey, Chris, I don't mind being with the whole family, but one expectation I have is that you and I will have at least one or two of our own date nights out without the kids. The grandkids are just going out and. That was met, I think, very well because we talked about it. 

Alisa [00:14:34] Yeah and then we even shared it with our kids that another expectation was I would love for us to have like maybe two nights that we babysit all the grandkids and we let our kids go out that they get a couple date night like just the two of them and then they get a sibling date night. 

Chris [00:14:53] And I think we're just talking about it, right? Communicating. It's like money. When you get a gift, I get a gift at Christmas. I used to think it's ours and it would pay for bills and it would cover everything and you mistakenly believed it was yours because your name is on there. The expectation was, wow, this is our money. Let's put it together. And you're like, no, no. No, I've been waiting all year because I knew this gift was coming. I'm gonna go buy this and this. I'm used to think so. Right? And that was an expectation. It was, and it was a point that we talked about. Lisa, let's talk about another one. One thing that happens, I think, for you and a little bit, I guess, for everybody, is let's call it the skeleton of avoidance. It's that kind of, I avoid wanting to talk about the tough things, and sometimes it's because, I think for you, it's like easier to not create waves. And if you avoid it, you don't have to deal with these hard things, but that could come into haunt your marriage if you're not careful when you always are avoiding the hard things. 

Alisa [00:16:02] I think I grew up with, you know, we just keep the peace at any cost because I grew up with a dad that kind of had a temper. And so my mom, my sister and I, we really kind of practiced, gosh, you have to walk on eggshells to keep him happy so he didn't explode. And so I just learned to kind of stuff any negative, any emotion, any needs that I had. I learned not to express anything unless it was really positive. And so for me, I just really avoided discussing anything that was hard because I was afraid to. I was, well, I was a afraid that it would get pushed back on me, that I would be blamed, it would turn around and blame me. And then I was also afraid of hurting your feelings. And I didn't know how to communicate in a way that was a healthy way that didn't blame you. But expressed a valid complaint. I just didn't have that kind of communication skill. 

Chris [00:17:04] So then there's, the secret is in what you just said. How can you communicate without doing blame? If you're in a void, right? Then, and we don't have to explain it. I mean, everybody kind of gets a little bit of that, right. 

Alisa [00:17:20] It's like it's just gonna explode into a fight and I don't wanna have a fight. It's gonna hurt your feelings. I don't wanna hurt your feeling. I'm afraid to, cause the blame's gonna go on me. So you just learn to adopt a mode of silence. And really, when you have the attitude of peace at any cost, that's so dangerous to a relationship, Chris, because... That kind of piece is too costly. It's gonna exact and take a toll on your relationship because it forces you to hide part of who you are. 

Chris [00:17:58] Yeah, we've talked to some couples where one of them, or maybe both, kind of struggle with this right there. Maybe newly married or they've been married for a while and they fall into that kind of pattern of it's just easier. It's just, I don't want to bring this up. I don't want to hurt feelings, I dunno, whatever. So what can a couple do if one of them is struggling with this? What are some things you would recommend? 

Alisa [00:18:23] Well, I think first of all is just to really be aware of when it's happening. And I think for those of us that really struggle with avoidance, that we have to realize it's going to come out at some point. It's going to manifest in some way because it just leaks out at us. Sometimes you can recognize that it's happened. If you adopt maybe a pattern of interaction that's characteristic with sarcasm or maybe passive aggressiveness or it could just be playing or silence yeah just like I'm just avoiding anything so just I'm just gonna shut down completely and so I think when you do that that's where you want to adopt that that tone that we just talked about we call it a gentle startup. Instead of approaching with an attacking attitude of you know, Chris, you never mowed the lawn, you always, you know you're so lazy or something like that. That's not gonna be effective, that's not going to be helpful. So we want to enjoy a really gentle startup of, hey you know when that lawn goes unkept, when it goes un-mowed, I really, and do that I feel statement and then expressing that positive need. This is another situation where it's really helpful. 

Chris [00:19:50] You know, I think just to kind of keep it in maybe a practical example for us, it wasn't you doing that. It was me learning, you know, because I knew I could read that you weren't happy. I could tell. And that general startup was oftentimes required of me to say, Lise, I know something's wrong. I get it. Something I've done or not done. Lise, can we just find a moment, you know, when the kids are asleep or, you know, could you just tell me what's going on with you? And I think that general startup wasn't required to pull out for you rather than you never really did that. And I, you don't want to talk about the lawn. It was, Lise is it, is it something I'm doing or not doing? And finally Lise I think your ability to kind of go, well, all right, Chris? Thanks. Yeah, you know what it is? I think I get a little, I feel out of control when you tell me that I can't spend the money I got or I feel like you're controlling me or I fill out of controller chaotic when our yard looks this way. I had to learn to respond and go, wait. Gently. Hold on, Lisa, you think I'm controlling you when I'm saying we should pay our bills with this money? And you're like, yeah, because I've been saving up and waiting for this Christmas gift and we knew it was coming and I feel like you're controlling what I can do. I'm like, oh, well, let's talk about. 

Alisa [00:21:27] Or even a gentle response to that could be, you know, giving you the benefit of the doubt that I know you're not really trying to control me, that's not, but it sure, it feels that way to me. Because that gives you a little bit, it doesn't back you into a corner where you're feeling attacked, gives you the benefits of the down. So I know that you would never want to control. Maybe you do want to. That just giving you, you know, assuming the best of you. I know that that's not really what you're trying to do, but it feels that way to me. And then because you responded so gently and so positively in that way, it really created that feeling of safety for me where I could be honest, where I can be forthcoming. And it took a long time even in that, those particular instances. It could take, took me up to two hours. You know, a couple of times to really get up the courage to take that risk, to be honest and open and vulnerable. But because your pattern towards me was a gentleness, you never, you know threw it back on me, you never responded in defensiveness, you know or blame. Yeah, I mean, we're all human. But because you did that as a pattern, it really created a safe environment, emotionally safe in our home, where I could start taking the risk more and more often to be authentic, to be open, to be vulnerable, and to be honest. And so that went a long way, but I never could have done that without your gentleness in that. Yeah, what? 

Chris [00:23:13] Yeah 

Alisa [00:23:14] What I do think- 

Chris [00:23:15] Yeah, thanks. I do think we finally figured out a routine also at least that's a good maybe practical tip is we scheduled that I mean we're like hold on you need we need to have a quiet moment when we're not stressed out about whatever it is when We're calm and schedule that time for repair and talking about what to do by the way. You got good at it I mean it took you two hours sometimes to figure it out After about five six years of marriage. It took you an hour and 45 minutes after a number of years, took you an hour, 10, now. We've been married so long that it takes you like three seconds to be able to tell me what's on your heart and mind. And I'm like, woman, you just come right at me. This is the issue. This is what I'm feeling. This is why I think we need to do better. And I am like, slow down. You've created a monster. Give me a few seconds to catch back up. Yeah, you're too good at it. Alright, so that's this ideal is what what do you want to end with on that point? 

Alisa [00:24:14] Yeah, I would say another really practical tip for those that have a problem with avoidance is when you're in the midst and you're finally able to talk about things that are hard and you get up the courage to do that is John Gottman, leading marital researcher, we talk about him so often on this program, he talks about the importance of repair attempts. And in a repair attempt, he would say this. He would say that the masters of relationships, he talks about the masters and the disasters. Those that are doing relationships well are the masters. Those that aren't are the disasters, obviously. So he says the masters of relationships actually do repair attempts really often and frequently, regularly in their relationship when they're having that give and take. In a conversation, and he would describe it as this. He says it's any statement or action, whether it's silly or serious or otherwise, that prevents negativity from escalating out of control. And so it might be that it's starting to get heated and you call a timeout. It could be it's started to escalate a little bit and you use humor appropriately, but you used humor. That uh... And i think we're pretty good at that sometimes or even just recognizing well i can see that i've really you know tapped into something that you're feeling uh... Really upset about this and do you do you need us to call a timeout do you needed a couple minutes to think about it or hey i'm feeling this way and i need a couple of minutes or let's let's think about this or you know i'm filling a little attacked or blame Is there maybe another way that you could restate what you're trying to communicate? 

Chris [00:26:12] Even another repair lease could be all those great or it could be hey, can we just take a break from this? Let's go let's go watch a movie and let's have fun right and and get back to this is that repair I want to keep make sure you know or the other person knows and that I love them I care for them and it's attempting to let's repair this. Let's just find a better time 

Alisa [00:26:33] Yeah, so actually Gottman has prepared this awesome little sheet. I printed it out today. And we're going to link to it in our show notes. But he actually has this repair list. It's like a list of statements of, you know, I'm getting scared. Can we just maybe slow our conversation down a little bit? Or it could be, you So what you're trying to communicate is really important to me. And I want to listen to it, but I'm getting a, yeah, I'm feeling a little heated right now, so let's take a time out. Or it could be something like, let me start, can we just start again and let me try that again in a little bit softer way. I've said that a little but harshly, more harshly than I wanted to, can I have a do-over? 

Chris [00:27:23] And those are all repair attempts, and, yeah. We'll link a little, we'll put a link in there if they want to go look at some of the statements. They're very awesome. Okay. Okay, so now let's go in, and that was the skeleton, I think the word skeleton is great because we hold on to some of these things in our closets, right? That's where you have the skeleton in the closet, it's family of one or two. Yeah, you don't want to come out, you want to avoid it. But now let' go into one of the scarier ones, the monster of them all, called contempt. And as we do that, we're going to take a quick break and check this out. Hey, if you want to invest in your marriage, what better way than a weekend away, just the two of you? 

Alisa [00:28:05] Oh exactly, research shows that couples who intentionally set aside time for this are far more likely to stay connected and avoid drifting apart. 

Chris [00:28:15] Yeah, that's why we love Family Life's Weekend to Remember. Hey, it's coming up in Monterey, California, and it's three days of powerful biblical teaching, practical tools, and quality time with your spouse. 

Alisa [00:28:26] Plus, I mean, come on, it's Monterey, California. Beautiful views, great food, and just a beautiful space to really focus on just each other. 

Chris [00:28:36] Yeah, we'll be there speaking and we'd love for you to join us. 

Alisa [00:28:39] All of that info is in the details of the show notes, so don't miss it, come and join us. 

Chris [00:28:49] So at least we've covered these kinds of different, you know, monsters, skeletons that appear. Probably the worst that researchers have identified and many have identified, it really is the idea of contempt that can creep in. So suppose you and I are now unable to do some of these repair attempts or we don't. Take the time, right, and we harbor resentment and bitterness, it can turn into a flat out not liking of another person, right? Like I'm just tired of him being a slob or he doesn't care or she just is always so on edge or and even in relationships that are not in marriages, we can start to develop some of this bitterness that can turn in to the monster of contempt. 

Alisa [00:29:43] Yeah. So how would you define? 

Chris [00:29:45] Well, it's a combination of emotions. We know that, right? I think some of the emotions are anger, right, but another one is this emotion of disgust. It's fascinating. Contempt really does, at its kind of root, comes down to I'm mad at this other person and they disgust me, right. That you put those two together and work and you come up with the emotion called contempt It's that feeling of not only am I mad and I don't like what you're doing, but you as a person You is your who you are You know discuss me. That's why we call this Really one of the greatest predictors of divorce or when and gunman's research and others have shown that when contempt shows up When that monster comes in and is not dealt with I mean, it happens every once in a while in every marriage, right? There might be times, bad seasons, but when it stays there, right, and it grows, it can predict divorce with like 90% accuracy. Find a couple, married, just friends, whatever. And if you see that emotion of contempt come in, man, it's like, all right, you've got some things that need to be talked about and dealt with right away. 

Alisa [00:31:01] And you can tell signs of contempt. You mentioned eye rolling. You know, that sense of superiority, like I can't believe I have to be married to this. You know welcome to my world, look what I'm living with. But it's frequently identified by statements. If you're using a lot of you statements, you did this, you never do that, or always. You always. 

Chris [00:31:28] You always control you always take the money you always find a way to ruin it 

Alisa [00:31:32] You never want to be with my family. You know, those are signs of contempt that you really better pay attention to. 

Chris [00:31:40] I don't know if I ever want to be with you. No, not really. I love your family. They're awesome suppose however that there is a situation and And and what that does is if you were to say those to me, I would say wait stop I don't always I'm not trying to you know always avoid your family But what it does is it reads it's revealing through these like you said nonverbals and verbals, right? Right? 

Alisa [00:32:05] And so Ephesians 429 really speaks to this when Paul says don't let any unwholesome words come out of your mouth, but only what is good, what is helpful, and what is an encouragement to those who hear you. So to be able to press that pause button before you speak and actually ask yourself, Is this good? Is it helpful? Will this be encouraging to the other person? And if the answer is no to any one of those, then the answer's not to avoid it, but it may be to reframe the way you're stating it, maybe watching your own heart. And so, there's a couple things we can do to combat the issue of contempt. Okay, we might fall into it ever once in a while. But it's really when this becomes a pattern of your interaction, of your conflict. So what are some things that we could do to counteract that? I think I would start. 

Chris [00:33:09] Even earlier than what should I say? I mean, I love Ephesians four, right? Let no one hold some word. But what oftentimes is in our heart is what comes out in our word. Yeah, you're right. And so I would go to the heart and very powerful passage, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever's good, whatever is. Let your mind dwell on these things. Okay, so first thing I would do, Lisa, is I'd go back and go, hold on here, I'm thinking these thoughts because I believe them, but is it true? Is it honorable? Is it right? And then check and go wait a minute, hold on, what do I know about this person? Do I really know the- Or am I so prejudging, right, this person in my heart that I am searching them and instead of searching their heart, finding them wanting, right? I'm like, you Lisa, you're wanting in this, you are bad at that, you aren't good here, like whoa, whoa, hold on here. Where did I get off onto this path? Yeah, when I mean when possibly I need to turn this to my heart and go, hmm, search my heart, oh God, why do I feel this about her? Search my heart. See if there's hurtful ways in me. 

Alisa [00:34:37] Am I guilty of what I'm actually accusing him of? 

Chris [00:34:40] Yeah, it takes a lot of humility and a lot of careful thinking, and then sitting down with the Lord and checking your heart first, thinking, what are your thoughts? Are they being true, honorable, right? You know, and in that way, figuring out, Lise, hold on here, I need to start there before even my words start to come out. 

Alisa [00:35:01] I love that, so you're saying, so self-examination along with the Lord, and then I think a second thing is that we can do to counteract contempt is to begin building a culture or an environment in your home of appreciation, of gratitude, of those things that you just mentioned, of thinking and noting, maybe even writing down in a gratitude journal about your spouse, the things that are good. That are worthy, that are honorable and that you appreciate about them and to not only remind yourself of them but then to actually express that to the other person and if you do it in a way that you actually come up with something that you value, you appreciate, you admire about your spouse every single day, come up at least with one thing. We I would say maybe two or three things would be ideal. But if you're in a place in your relationship where you're really struggling, maybe it's only one thing that you can think of that would come to mind, but that you actually begin to express that and build a culture and environment of that in your relationship, that's going to counteract the contempt. 

Chris [00:36:17] It's clearly so that's that is probably the single best thing you can do to shrink the monster because if the monster is Contempt the antidote the the the Achilles heel of content is definitely Appreciation isn't it and and like you said you have to write it down every day and don't just write it down, but then express it like you say like I really appreciated that you did the laundry this week. I haven't, yeah, I just want to let you know. Or really appreciate that you thought about that and you wrote my mom and said happy birthday for the both of us or whatever. I appreciate that. That's great, I love that one. All right, what about when there's emotional disengagement? Yeah, this would be number four, number four. Like, we'll use the theme that we're using of Halloween, the phantom. Right, of emotional disengagement, where there's something like we just coexist maybe as roommates, right? We don't really emotionally engage anymore and that disengagement starts to show up with some couples and there's a lot of relationships because there's hurt feelings going on or there's Something else or I just don't trust you and so I'm gonna emotionally protect myself, right. What else? 

Alisa [00:37:38] Else do you see? I think also because couples get busy. It's just daily life. 

Chris [00:37:45] Domingo 

Alisa [00:37:46] Right, it's like, you know, we've got to get up, we both got work, maybe you've got kids, you're getting lunches ready, getting kids out the door, you're jotting a couple things down on the grocery list, throwing the laundry before you go, you go and work eight hours a day, you are picking kids up from school, then you're doing homework, you going to practice, you've going, oh we've gotta want us at church. Then I've got to fold that laundry that I started. I've gotta rent to the grocery store. I haven't done that yet. Oh my gosh, that's nine o'clock. 

Chris [00:38:16] Trust me on it, I get it. 

Alisa [00:38:17] And we're just going to fall into bed exhausted and and sometimes 

Chris [00:38:23] that pattern and it could go for days, weeks, months, and years, where pretty soon we're not finding and making time to engage each other on how are you doing, what's on your heart, where are you, right? I mean, at the end of the day, couples that are facing, you know, or relationships that you face with the emotional disengagement, busyness is the killer, right, it's the phantom that comes in. Oh, go ahead. No, no, go head. I was going to say business and also just a lack of recommitting or redoing what you used to do to stay engaged. It was so easy to stay engaged when you're first married or first in a fun relationship. And then all of a sudden things happen, whether it's busyness or life, and you just don't feel like you are able to either trust or have the time. Or even know each other anymore. You don't make the effort to... 

Alisa [00:39:21] We've just, we've spent so much time going like this. It's like, it's the old saying, right? I love you, but I'm not in love with you anymore. I don't feel in love. 

Chris [00:39:33] Boy, you hear that we could just pull up any Hollywood marriage, any marriage. 

Alisa [00:39:38] Here's the thing though. You don't just fall out of love. You grow out of it and you do it one daily decision, multiple daily decisions at a time. Because I can either choose to pause and and look you in the eye and kiss you in the morning, go get you a cup of coffee, hand it to you, say good morning honey as I look you right in the eye. Or I can just let you get your own because you're a boo boy and I've got 10 things I need to do. That's a decision point. I can choose to run back and give you a hug before I run out the door or I can say, no, I'm running late. I've just gotta go. That's daily decision. I could pick up your favorite snack at the store just because I know you like it or. It's not on my list, I don't have time, that's all the way over on the other side of the store, I've just gotta get it and go. Or I'm mad at him, he can get his own darn snap. He didn't get my snap, so I'm not gonna get his snap. But it's those little daily things of kindness, of compassion, of thoughtfulness that bring you back together, that keep you emotionally close and fight that natural drift. In our relationship, we're just naturally going to drift apart. It just happens. We have to be intentional about coming back together and building in and taking advantage and opportunity of those choice points that we have throughout the day to pray for each other. Be thoughtful. Be kind. 

Chris [00:41:14] I love that. So that brings it down to the daily. But also there is probably even some other practical things and it's the need to schedule in times of checking in that are at an emotional level, right? It's like, hey, we have not gone away and just sat there and you know, how's your heart? Where are you? What's life doing? And it's that art of you know asking good questions, right. Man, but it's also Sometimes needs to be scheduled in like we just have to find time to do this to reconnect or else that Phantom of this emotional disconnect is going to be there and it sometimes takes not just daily decisions But it also takes scheduling for some intentionality intentionality 

Alisa [00:42:01] And it's not just going to happen, because life is too busy, so you really have to schedule times of connection together. One of the times that you and I did when we had kids at home was on Wednesday nights when they went to youth group or they went the children's program. We would take that time to, I mean, maybe it was a cheap dinner out, it might be a Costco hot dog that's, you know, like $1.50 or something, or you go out to Nice dinner. Or something you just do something maybe it's a cup of coffee and say let's get coffee let's get a little pastry and let's just sit here. 

Speaker 4 [00:42:38] With each other. 

Alisa [00:42:39] And I love one of the best questions, I think, that could save your marriage, like literally. Every morning before you go out the door, that you stop and you look at your partner, you look your spouse and you say, how can I help you today? Chris, what's on your docket? How can I helped you today, how I can pray for you today. Maybe it's those two questions. Because that communicates to your spouse, I see you, you're important to me and the things that are. That are weights that you have to carry, you're not by yourself. We're a team, and we're gonna do this together, and you are important to me. 

Chris [00:43:18] Yeah, I like, I love that and I think when you say, how can I pray for you? Another variance of that is what's on your heart? What are you most worried about today? What's on you schedule? And that helped me, so I can pray a little bit more specifically, right? What's going on with you today? How's your heart, where are you? You know, and I thing if you start doing those little things, Elise, man, you start to kind of get that disconnect and re-engage. Do what you used to be able to do, right. Find that. Place that you used to go to or something that reignites that connection that you use to have that maybe you let that pilot light kind of start to flicker out, right? And you need to get it restarted, reignited with those daily things and with some schedule. 

Alisa [00:44:10] So why do relationships matter so much? And why do they feel sometimes so hard to do? 

Chris [00:44:15] Yeah, that's Felisa what I've tried to unpack in the Art and Science of Relationships. It's a seven lesson course where biblical wisdom meets research-backed insights. 

Alisa [00:44:26] Yeah, you dive into topics like emotional safety, conflict, forgiveness, gratitude, even how technology is shaping your connection. 

Chris [00:44:35] This isn't just theory. It's really reflection questions and even a lot of practical steps that people can put into practice right away 

Alisa [00:44:42] because research shows that small changes in how we communicate, how we connect, can have a huge impact. 

Chris [00:44:50] Yeah. So if you want to make your relationships truly thought thrive, this course will help you get there and check out the details in the show notes. Well, at least that's good. What else you wanna add on this one and then we'll do some concluding thoughts. 

Alisa [00:45:05] Yeah, I think the final one I would add that it's always my mantra that I'm going to go to because I believe in prayer. I believe it. I love it because prayer changes things. Prayer can change anything. It can change everything. And I think even more importantly is that prayer changes me. And when I'm praying, when I am praying for you, When I'm praying for our marriage and our family, when I'm pray for me and say, Lord, I just need your help to be the wife that Chris needs me to be. He is my gift that you have given to me. And Lord, how can I love him best? How can I serve him best because Lord, I wanna love him the way you want me to love in a way that honors him and it honors you and honors myself. And maybe it's also just taking time before we go to bed to pray for each other. And if that's a hard thing, sometimes couples have a hard time in prayer. We hear this a lot, don't we? If you're having a hard times praying together as a couple, you've never done it before. Maybe you're newly married, maybe you've been married for 30 years and you don't really pray together. Where can couples start? 

Chris [00:46:26] Well, I think the first thing might be recognizing the power of even just silently praying. I mean, some just don't want to pray out loud. Grab your spouse and say, Honey, I just want to prey for us right quick, and I'm not going to say anything, but I just wanna take 30 seconds. Hold your hand. That sounds hard, but you grab their hand, you don't have to say anything. You just pray to yourself, right? Praying together doesn't have to be, you know, this wonderfully, you know, flowery, perfect prayer. It could just be something in silence or you didn't have to say anything, you just put your hand on their shoulder and their knee, close your eyes or keep them open however you want and just silently pray. And I think for couples that are struggling, the quickest and easiest way is just go ahead and do it that way, real quickly, just take time. And sometimes at night as at least thanks for praying for me and often times you could do it, extend that time. When do you pray? Well, when I say, we say grace before a meal, you know, like, well. All right, use that time and maybe add in there something, you know, about not just the food but about your life, your marriage, your relationship, add something in there. So just take advantage of times when you do pray. When you're in the car and driving? Yeah. When the Dodgers bring in a reliever in the eighth inning, I'm praying, man. And I'm like, why not just now pray for that reliever and the eighth ending. 

Alisa [00:47:44] Do they have Hail Marys in baseball? 

Chris [00:47:46] No, in football they have Hail Marys and you can pray for that too, trust me, that's why they call it a Hail Mary, but you're just like throwing up a prayer baby, but take it to more like that, like I'm kind of teasing of course, sort of, but just go, ah, I take advantage of those moments and add something in there at night, however you do it. So I think that's some practical ways. Lisa, these have been some things that come into our marriages, right? Skeletons and monsters and family. 

Alisa [00:48:14] Avoidance, content, unexpressed expectations, and then emotional disengagement. 

Chris [00:48:21] Yeah, so we gave some techniques to couples. Do we have any other practical takeaways? I think prayer is probably the top. 

Alisa [00:48:30] I think a really simple one. This one is so easy, but it really makes a difference. It's when you're leaving for the day, you give each other a hug and a kiss. Gottman calls it the six-second kiss or a 20-second hug, because that takes that 20 seconds. When you hit 20 seconds and you continue hugging, your body actually starts producing that bonding hormone called oxytocin. And so 20 seconds out of an entire day, you can do this, that's doable. So before you leave, you hug, you kiss, you acknowledge each other. And then when you come home at the end of the day, stop what you're doing, set your briefcase down, your purse, whatever you're going, and you greet each other first thing as you come in the door with a smile. A hug, a kiss, you look them in the eyes and you just say, I really missed you today. I'm so glad I get to come home to you. 

Chris [00:49:31] Great great to come home to something like that 

Alisa [00:49:33] Those are really simple starting points. 

Chris [00:49:36] I'll do another one for this idea that sometimes we don't always know what's going on with us. It's really name the emotion. Name what you're struggling. Find a time for you to set a situation where, at least, what's on your heart? What's going? I know there's frustration. Can you just define it for me? I think one of the abilities is for us to communicate and just name that emotion Or let the other person help you name at least what am I feeling? I'm feeling something. I'm like, I don't know. First try it. And you're like, yeah, Chris, you seem like when that interaction with you and that boss went this way, it kind of maybe hurt your feelings. I'd be like, Yeah, I dunno if it hurt my feelings. I guess it made me feel like, Yeah, they have a bad opinion of me, something like that. That bothered me. So name it, right? Talk about it. 

Alisa [00:50:24] Down, so be aware. 

Chris [00:50:26] And be aware. 

Alisa [00:50:27] And then be really honest and open. That's good. You said a word earlier that I think is so important, which is humility. Oh, yeah. That we're approaching with a heart of humility and kindness and intentionality. 

Chris [00:50:41] And even if you do like what you talked about repairs, try one, just do one for this week. Like, honey, I need to repair, I need to do this, I just practice. 

Alisa [00:50:55] Doesn't really want to hear your heart. 

Chris [00:50:57] Well, any closing encouragement that you would have? 

Alisa [00:51:02] You know, I think just in keeping with the theme, really, is that, you know, your marriage probably doesn't need an exorcism. You know? Are those sometimes? Some of them do, if we're honest. There are times, maybe, that come and go. But it's really just the everyday calming, courtesies, being kind, and the qualities that we just mentioned, being open, honest, humble, and intentional, that can go a long way to fighting those. Those haunt the things that haunt your marriage. 

Chris [00:51:33] Yeah, and if your marriage is dying dead, God is the great Resurrector. He can take anything if you desire and bring it to life. He can water the dry places and restore the dry bones. And I think that's what God does. We just have to seek and ask him to do that. And then I think at least when we do that, when we seek it out, what we're doing is we're saying I'm not going to settle for this life. For mediocre. I'm going to fight for this, fight for intimacy, fight for connection, fight for emotional, you know, connection and man I think those are the ways to go about doing it. 

Alisa [00:52:13] Yeah, so well, maybe as we close, I'll just bless our audience that's listening, that is maybe watching on YouTube, but I'll close with this blessing, and it's from Isaiah 58, 11, and it says, may the Lord continually guide you, watering the dry places of your life, your marriage in this case, and making it healthy. And then you will be like a well-watered garden and your marriage like an overflowing spring. So Isaiah 58, 11. Thank you so much for joining us. This was really fun. Fun to kind of touch on the fall themes here. But we're really glad you joined us and check out our website. We're part of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, part of Talbot School of Theology. Check out our website at CMR.biola.edu. We have a ton of resources, blogs, video clips, other episodes of our podcast, but we'll see you next time. 

Mandy [00:53:23] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.