Tax Credits and Film Production with Hollywood Producer Michael Beugg #116

We're thrilled to have Hollywood producer Michael Beugg, renowned for his contributions to "Up in the Air" and "La La Land," as our special guest on the latest episode of The Screen Lawyer Podcast. 

In this episode, Michael sheds light on the complexities of labor disputes, the pivotal
role of the Screen Actors Guild, and the art of budget planning within the film
industry. Salsich and Beugg also dive into the MO Film Tax Credit and its potential future impact on location choices, along with the essential role played by soundstages and film commissions. 

Original Theme Song composed by Brent Johnson of Coolfire Studios.
Podcast sponsored by Capes Sokol.

Learn more about THE SCREEN LAWYER™ TheScreenLawyer.com.

Follow THE SCREEN LAWYER™ on social media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheScreenLawyer
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheScreenLawyer
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScreenLawyer
Instagram: https://instagram.com/TheScreenLawyer

The Screen Lawyer’s hair by Shelby Rippy, Idle Hands Grooming Company.

Transcript

0:00

On this episode of The Screen Lawyer podcast, I'm joined by my old friend, Hollywood producer Michael Beugg who's joining us via Zoom from Hollywood. Welcome, Michael. Glad to be here today, Pete. On The Screen Lawyer. It's really fun to be here. And it's exciting time in Missouri with the new tax credit. So I'm looking forward to getting into all of that and any questions you might have about the interesting world of film and even television production. Excellent. Well, this is going to be a great episode, folks. Stick around. Hey there. Welcome to The Screen Lawyer podcast. I'm Pete Salsich, The Screen Lawyer. And my guest today is my old friend, Hollywood producer Michael Beugg. Michael, welcome. Glad to be here today. Pete on the screen. Lawyer. It's exciting time for film in Missouri and hopefully all around the country soon as we all get back to work. Yeah, absolutely. And that's I want to spend some time talking to you about that because you're absolutely right. And at this stage right now in the film world, in your world in particular, you've really been sort of, I don't want to say on the sidelines, because I know you're very involved, but you're sort of watching and waiting for some really significant labor disputes to be resolved. Can you tell us a little bit about where those things stand? I know that the Writers Guild recently enacted a new contract and we talked about that on an episode here, particularly as it dealt with AI. But the screen actors are still on strike and that's obviously playing a big role in your world. It is. Most film and television production is unable to proceed. Although where you are today in Saint Louis, there is an independent film that has a waiver from the Screen Actors Guild that's gearing up to shoot, but for the most part, for 99% of people in the industry, we need that regular screen actors Guild contract to be complete so that we can resume production. Right, Right. And and I guess that's the SAG/AFTRA interim agreement that some independent films have to get approved. I haven't had a look at it, but the general idea from years past is if an independent producer that's not one of the major studios, streamers or networks that is negotiating will agree that they'll abide by whatever the terms will be of the eventual agreement that's reached because everyone believes an agreement will eventually be reached, then they're able to proceed into production. And likewise, as you may have read or heard, films that were made by independent companies have been able to obtain waivers for having their stars promote them during the times of their release. The Fall Award Season et Cetera. But all the other ones have not been able to get the majority, that is. Yeah, that's that's interesting. I had forgotten about the promotional aspect for films that have been completed. We we have a film that we're working with right now. It's being filmed in New York and they were able to our clients, an independent producer, and they were able to get approval and a waiver through the interim agreement earlier this summer and it allowed them to move forward. But I had forgotten about that aspect of the promotion. And I guess that's true because you see, like why some stars can appear and they're and they're, you know, well-known celebrities. But I guess the film that they worked on was not part of or not impacted by this, I guess, the major studio portion. Yeah, Yeah. For the for the most part, I think SAG has been trying to focus its efforts on those entities that are part of the unit that they're bargaining with, figuring that the other people are, you know, on the sidelines in that bargaining and maybe some special consideration can be given to those smaller participants in the industry. So that's that's the idea behind it. And they've had things like this, you know, these contracts in our industry expire every three years. The Directors Guild, Writers Guild and SAG all expire in the same year. They used to expire on the same day, in fact. So that was kind of stressful. But but so there have been these issues of how can we finish off productions with the small films, etc., if the magic day comes and there isn't an agreement, etc., that's been going on for a long time. Fortunately, most years we don't end up with strikes in the industry. But this year we did. And yeah, there we have it. But you know, we keep hearing things and anybody can read this who looks it up, just do SAG negotiations update or something like that or a browser and you'll get an update. But the one this morning says, you know, optimistic and so forth. So all right. Well, that's looking for good things. Yeah, that's good. I know you were involved on the Directors Guild side of things, right? But you all managed to avoid a strike. Yeah, I was in on that one. And that one we were at the tables with the same bargaining entities for about four weeks, and it was a difficult discussion, but ultimately we were able to get there in our allotted window and the Writers Guild and SAG also had windows allotted, but they just weren't able to get to where they needed to go during that time and then, you know, went out on strike as they got it so well. And I know that when the and I guess I hadn't really processed until we talked about how the the timing of these things really does, they all kind of overlap. And I guess if you think about it, it makes sense because there's such an interconnectedness, right? You need directors, you need writers and you need actors or you can't make a film. And so to be able to if you if you had a staggering every other year that you dealt with one of these, you'd have this perpetual threat of labor stoppage, I guess, which would be really unworkable. Yeah, they have some common elements like percentage wage increases and residuals formulas, which are which are viewer based, and they're not exactly success based formulas, but they're somewhat success based in the sense of being aired or shown a certain number of times. Those are involved, I think, since around 1960 or so, and there are many layers to it. It's a pretty complicated rulebook, but nonetheless, they tend to parallel across the SAG, the Writers Guild and the Directors Guild. So it makes sense that they're negotiated at around the same time. And and, you know, most of the workplace safety rules, at least for the Directors Guild and the SAG members, are very, very similar. And so those the writers are spend a little bit less time on set. That's your showrunner of their TV show and so forth. But at any rate, there's lots of common elements and I think the guilds generally have a, a cooperative attitude towards one another. But sometimes one guild will prioritize one particular sort of issue more than another. And if that ends up being the sticking point in the negotiations, then that might lead one's negotiations to go on longer. So I know when the when that we talked about the Writers Guild, when they came out with their new contract, I focused in in particular for that group on the what I think is a fairly elegant solution to dealing with AI, generative AI, Chat GPT, things like that that were I think you know, giving a lot of writers that they're giving a lot of people sort of this somewhat existential fear, am I going to be replaced? And what I found interesting there is that and I think because of how copyright law works with the written word that the studios ultimately had to come to the table and reach an accommodation on AI because if they push too hard for the ability to use generative AI, they run the risk that the end up not owning the copyright in the story, not only the copyright and the screenplay, not completely. And so I think that probably bro that they allowed them both to realize we've got to recognize that the human author can't be replaced because copyright law requires human authorship, and it also isn't going to be used. I think this was important. It isn’t going to be used to define source material or other material in such a way that it might reduce the compensation or the credit for the writers. But do you see, is AI an issue with the actors, do you think? Yeah, I think that the actors have that on their list of their two final sticking points or unresolved issues. I don't know exactly what direction they're going in because all those discussions are confidential and they write All three guilds operate more or less under a media blackout. But but, you know, sometimes they will say something or other, and they have said that this is one of their two final issues, along with some kind of success based measures for streaming to be contributed back to the actors above and beyond the residuals. And so I don't know what they're pushing for, but I do know that when you read the comments of the members online, they seem to talk about the idea that their image could be reused endlessly and whether the contract provides protections for that. Now. Right. As we discussed a couple of times before, and I've listened to your podcast as well, I think that there are a lot of protections already in the contract about reusing images. So it must be a more specialized notion of reuse that they're trying to nail down there. For example, if you use a clip from, you know, let's see, like in La la Land, we used a clip from another movie and we had to and we had to negotiate with the rights holder of that clip and then also make a payment to the actors that are in that clip. Right. So that's the typical arrangement even now before this new contract. So I imagine that the actors have, though not a screen lawyer myself, have some sort of protection for this already, but that this contract will take it to a new level or maybe spell it out. You know, I've heard people say with regard to the the writers contract is sometimes what they're doing is they're putting into new contracts, things that the writers attorneys have been negotiating for them in in their individual contracts. And they're just trying to make sure that it's now standard across the industry that you know, in other words, even if your attorney doesn't mention it in the negotiations, it's still there for you in the union contract. So perhaps that's what the Screen Actors Guild is thinking about, is what can we do to make explicit some of the things that that are already handled on a person to person level in their individual negotiations. And also when you think a lot of people don't know this, but in many cities, the extras or at least the first 55 extras of the day or the first 80 of that's the background artists don't have speaking lines. They're covered by the Screen Actors Guild, too. So I think they would typically of course, not have an attorney negotiating for their their one day appearance in a scene. And so they're trying to take care of those folks as well. Yeah. And that's actually some of the when I think even before the the strikes happened when it was still in negotiating the negotiation window, I remember seeing something the fear more for the extras or the smaller bit players who, as you said, they're not likely to have a lawyer negotiate. And if they go get a lawyer to negotiate, the director and producer probably say, well, fine, we'll get the next person next to you right? I mean, this is a blanket offer for everybody today, kind of thing. And I that's where I think the protection of the larger union agreement to put some baseline and you know, you can't do more than this or whatever it is is probably meant to protect those players, perhaps more than the people who would have the ability to have something special negotiated into their deal. And I guess for those listeners who are not familiar and viewers, you know, the union agreements in Hollywood are important because almost everyone is a freelancer. And all of the union's not just the Writers Guild, the DGA and the Screen Actors Guild, but also the film Technicians union known as IATSE and also the film Teamsters. All of those people go from job to job to job, right? But because these agreements exist each day, work counts towards eligibility for a health plan and has a pension plan. So it's actually quite a nice thing in that someone could work for ten employers every year for 20 or 30 years straight and end up with a health plan for their family and a pension plan because of the existence of these agreements. So it's a it's a it's a nice thing. You know, we hear a lot about the gig economy. But one of the downsides of the gig economy is that you don't have a very nice access to benefits necessarily, but not always, but mostly not. And so so at any rate, this is a good way to to help people participate in an industry that is, by its nature, stop and start. You get the part you don't get the part three weeks more. You still don't get the part. Oh, you got one. You know, they can still have a lot of things for them in their family that people who work at big companies get to have or enjoy. You know, that's really and I'm glad you mentioned that. That's really interesting because I never really focused on that. You know, you think of the UAW strike, for example, and they just apparently reached a deal. Those are employees of the companies. Right. And the union protects, you know, airline industry, automotive, you know, other industries is typically protecting employees. But here, you're right. You're protecting a class of members who themselves get employed on a job by job basis. So that's really interesting. Let me take let me take you I want to spend a little time on that producer role that you've had. You know, you've got quite a filmography now. And, you know, I know you got started, you know, I guess in a way, a lot of people that you work as a line producer, you get, you know, you get jobs and then gradually you got into some larger projects. Now to the point where you've had multiple films that have had Academy Award nominations and everything else. You're an award winner yourself. How does somebody you know, again, sometimes when we're speaking on this, we're speaking to that aspiring filmmaker that is someone who's aspiring to get into the business Without recounting all the years of your experience. You know, how does that happen? How does a guy from St Louis go and just do what you've been able to do? Because it's amazing. Well, I think almost anybody, if they put their mind to it and have enough patience, can succeed in film or television in Hollywood. But you have to be used to the idea that it won't happen overnight. And of course, of course, our friends in the media make sure they tell us the stories for whom it happens overnight, that almost everybody does not have that story. And so it's important not to be discouraged by that. I always say to people, if you don't feel like you can give it, you know, 3 to 5 years or something like that, to start to have things happen. And I just mean even by that, by being regularly employed in the industry as opposed to whatever your your, your Uber or Lyft job is or something else that you're doing waiting tables or bartending. Yeah, exactly. So that's the first thing is know that it'll take a while. And then I think beyond that, you have to choose a couple of different from different paths. One is sort of identify, Hey, I'm, I'm more a person who wants to be in a big company that makes entertainment, but I want that that feeling of being in a large organization. But I'm happy that maybe I'll be lucky and get invited to some of the premieres or say that I'm right, you know, marketing a big film or I'm right. I'm doing looking at the finances of a big film, but not really there on the set. That's one way to participate, and it's a great way, or even being an agent or a manager, things like that, and attorney and entertainment of course, and so on. But but then for those that want to be there creating the product or on set, you know, then you have to think about some other paths. And one is to, let's say you're stuck on being a director or whatever, or an actor even, but then you have the choice of either trying to work your way up by learning some other positions like, Oh, I'm going to be a production assistant now, I'm going to be an assistant director, or now I'm going to work in the camera department. Got all the things you need to know, maybe to be a director. That's one way. And then the other way is you just go out there and you declare yourself a director. You know, you're going to be trying to earn money from these side jobs and you make small projects and you hope that the small projects are seen and then you get a chance at a larger project, a larger project, and so on and so on. In my case, as a aspiring producer, I headed out to Hollywood, thought I might get a job at one of the large companies in their creative department. Didn't really come through, but I had the good fortune to team up with a friend of mine named George Hickenlooper on a short term. Now, a short film doesn't pay anything and it takes a long time to do it. And I worked on it for about six months, but it did get into the Sundance Film Festival and it was called the Sling Blade, or some folks call it a Sling blade and got a little bit of acclaim, right? So that enabled me to start as a producer and stay a producer, but always on things with tiny budget and where I didn't get paid. And then eventually it, you know, the budgets went up a little bit right? Acquired enough expertise and in how to produce that people would hire me to be what you mentioned a line producer which is someone who does a lot of the functions of a producer and and make sure that all the the operations of the set as well as sort of the behind the scene, the business operations are going well. And and then from there, you know, I just kind of moved on to larger and larger projects over a slow progression. Unfortunately, a couple of the smaller ones, Little Miss Sunshine, and thank you for smoking. It got some acclaim and then roads been easier since that. Sure. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. But yeah and again, this is sort of where I typically have been approached and been involved in projects is from the production company side of things. As they're putting something together, they're beginning maybe it's, it's, it's a combination of a writer or, you know, aspiring director sometimes coming out of the commercial production world or coming out of the documentary world. And this is their first feature. They're putting a team together. And when they talk about the budget, there always seems to be this from their perspective, it's typically, well, how much will it cost? I can visualize it this way. I can visualize it with two car crashes and some location and a little bit of CGI, but not a lot or whatever. And so they're thinking about simply what it will cost to make what they can visualize in their head. And I don't think they're really thinking about it from the point of view that you just said, which is maybe the most important will that many will that dollars worth of audience find the film? You know, what is that? Because of course, the studios are in business to make money on their projects and I know they lose money on some, but probably from your perspective, the more times you can make the studios successful, the more times they'll come back to you. Yeah, that is an important thing that I think everybody in the industry tries to keep in mind is that we do want that our friends at the studios to be successful because that means that they will make more of this great art work that everybody wants to do. But I think that the tricky part for producers, and especially for the the line producer category of producers is you got to help help the directors, particularly in this case and in television it be more the showrunners. But Right. But because they have eight different directors for each episode, but in features, we're trying to help our directors have a chance to articulate their vision for how they want to do it, try to help them find ways to do it that maybe maximize using that vision and but then trying to keep in mind what is the most likely studio where the project will land and what does that studio think is the most they're willing to pay, particularly for that particular group of cast members that you're talking about and and director and all that. So that you don't have too much time sometimes for that convergence to happen. Because let's say there's an actor who might be interested in the project, but they're saying, but I'm only interested from June to August 2024 and that's it. So that means that there has to be a pre-production that's the hiring everybody, the finding all the locations, figuring out what equipment is needed, the rest of the cast. That all has to happen before that date and to do that, the studio has to feel like, Oh, I we have now seen a credible plan for our preferred amount of money that will enable all that to happen by that time. But that means then the director has to be happy with that credible plan because you could make a plan that adds up to the money and the studio people might say, Well, that's great, You know, however you get there as long as you get there. But if it isn't a match with the director's vision of how to do the movie, then you haven't really completed the work because the budget doesn't actually reflect that, and so on and so on. So really you have to try to get that to converge before the deal is closed and and, and offices are opened and all of that now. Right. Every movie after you make that plan in what we call the pre-production process, when everybody's hired discovers things about their budget and their plan that aren't quite right. And I don't think that's very different from companies and other and true you start saying, we're going to make this new software or we're going to make this new plane, and then the experts in each of the departments come aboard and start trying to do their new find. They say, Oh, you thought you could light the movie with just this many people. Well, right. How you didn't know we were going to pick Lambert Airport for that location. And that's really big and it's going to take a lot of lights. And so on. And so there's a lot of re re optimizing, let's call it recalibrating or we try to get the whole team to work together and figure out how can we solve these problems, Because now we said we're heading down the road for that amount of money and we've got to find a way to make the director's work shine and each of the individual departments feel good. You know that the sets are beautiful, the lighting is great, the costumes are the makeup that there are enough of the background artists or extras that we talked about early in scene so that they look right. So it's a there's a whole thing of and scene one, maybe it's lighting's time to shine and then scene two. Well, we're we're going to emphasize the costumes here because this is more of a scene where that's going, you know, try to make sure everybody has what they need for the big moments for their department. And that'll make maybe the best film. That's that's fascinating. You mentioned a couple of things here. I want to I want to sort of steer us to You mentioned locations and they part of the pre-production process, right, is choosing where you're going to film. Are you going to film in L.A. or New York and some existing sets or studio lots, or are you going to film on location? And one of the films that you brought on location and you've got a fair amount of location filming, I think. Yeah. And one of the films that was a huge hit but was really fun for those of us in Saint Louis was “Up in the Air”. And you brought that to St. Louis to film here to have a chance to do that. And you mentioned filming in Lambert Airport and that location. Can you walk us through a little bit about how, you know, how did did you lead the decision to bring up in the air to Saint Louis? How did that happen? And that'll lead us into a little bit of discussion on the new tax credits that just they're coming online in Missouri because you did the when Up in the Air, came here. We had an earlier version of tax credits in Missouri. Yeah, well, I was working with director Jason Reitman on that. And and that was my second time with him. I mentioned earlier his his film, which I hope people will check out called Thank You for Smoking about the culture of lobbyists in Washington. Yeah, that's great. So this is my second chance to work with Jason. And the book Up in the Air was set in a lot of Midwestern locations, there were some other locations, but the Midwest prominently featured in the book. And so Jason and a couple of his colleagues and I sat down and thought about places to go and film. And I put Missouri on the list because, well, I was born here in Saint Louis and all of that. But as often happens with with working with great filmmakers, it's better not to push too hard because then it begins to seem like you're intruding upon the creative process. So so I think and that sometimes backfires if your goal is to, for instance, have some filming in Saint Louis or in Missouri. So I put Saint Louis and Missouri forward as one of the good places. And I also learned that Jason wanted to film. His dream version was we could film with our stars in 13 different cities for a relatively modest budget. Now that's pretty expensive. So I knew that the outcome probably wasn't going to be that, but he was open to having a trip that stopped quite a few places. As long as there was a credible argument to be made for them. So it was easy to get Saint Louis on the list. Then the next step was he had to go to the places and the studio had us going to some places like New Mexico that didn't really seem like a fit for the Midwest, but it was known for its tax incentives and all that. But they were they were good and open about it. And we did get to stop in Chicago and Omaha and Detroit and so forth. And I think we talked about going down to Louisiana. I'm not sure if we actually made it there on the tour anyway, when we got to Saint Louis, Jason saw pretty quickly the wide range of architecture here and yeah, just Jason But production designer Steve Saklad was on this original survey and he said, oh my goodness, I could do, you know, almost any city here. And so at that point, Saint Louis was doing a good job selling itself on the creative side of Jason's aspirations. And he ultimately settled on the idea that Saint Louis would be one of the cities in the film, and then it would be the stand in for all other Midwestern and Eastern cities that he wanted to go to, except for the ones that we went to explicitly. And those were we we did two days in Omaha and three days in the in the in Detroit, Detroit. We are mostly focused on that that fun airport they have there with the little red trams there that those who've connected in Detroit or gone there might have seen. So that we did that and then but Lambert also sent signals early on signals or communications that they might be open to letting us film in a lot of the closed gates and things like that. And so that seemed promising because some of the other airports were saying, Hey, we can get you 4 hours in O'Hare or whatever, even two days if you need it. And we're when we needed a lot more days. Right. And a lot more hours. So sometimes it's sometimes it's good to have an airport that has some empty gates, is what you're saying. That's right. We were we were maybe not for the airline travel, but for the film. I certainly as a frequent flier in Saint Louis, appreciated the good old days of the TWA and the full American hub. But but it did work out well for our movie that I think American was down to about 110 flights a day when we filmed up in the air. So we were still able to look out the window and see quite a few American planes, which, yeah, something we needed to see. And at any rate, it would be a little harder to do that today. But maybe a lot of Southwest planes right? Right, exactly. So so anyway, architectural diversity was a big, big, big selling point for Saint Louis. And and that helped us so, so much. And so we were able to film three quarters of up in the air in Saint Louis. And then the other places that we went were not because of Saint Louis limitations, but rather just a desire to have Miami, Las Vegas, the Detroit airport, and then some of downtown Omaha in the film. When you brought that to Saint Louis, as we mentioned before, that was Missouri had film tax credits in place at the time. And so tell us how that fit into the decision. Obviously, you know, as you and I have talked about in the past, the first thing the location has to do is match the director's vision, Right? If that doesn't matter, if they I mean, maybe you could change the director's vision if there's enough financing available through the program. But, you know, ultimately it's got to fit right. And so but assuming that happens. There's a lot more and and under the previous regime, you know, to me, the win for Saint Louis and up in the air was not just showing up as a character as one of the cities in the film, but being the place that could be the location and provide all of the support and all of the workforce or much of it, at least for the other, is a stand in for the other cities. So talk a little bit about how that happened with the tax credits at the time, if they played a role and then what might a future filmmaker look at with Missouri's new tax credit program? The tax credits were very important to persuade Paramount Pictures. The maker of Up in the air to come to Missouri and ultimately to Saint Louis. They wouldn't have come there for the project if we didn't have the tax credit. There were other states that had tax credits available at that time. I think Louisiana was the biggest and most likely there would have been some sort of well, you know, Louisiana could look pretty much like the Midwest. Don't you guys think that? Well, not so much, really, but, you know, anyway, And so fortunately, the Missouri credit was there. Now, Paramount hadn't had prior experience with the Missouri credit. So that's where the the team at the Missouri film office, Jerry and Andrea were really important in. And then ultimately, I think in the Missouri Department of Revenue and so forth in connecting with people in government affairs at that Paramount and trying to reassure them that, yes, this is a relatively new credit, but we're we're we're doing it. It's it's it's good, it's solid and and all of that because that's something that the studios test They've had a few experiences with states you know, maybe Iowa, Michigan, etc., where they have had an an early foray into credits and then for whatever reason, public opinion or other things may have changed the state of the Treasury, whatever it may be. And they didn't stick with the credits and so that's something that studios are always worried about. And then they're wondering, well, how will you know, how will how soon will we be paid? And Missouri is sure it's a it's a tradable tax credit. So so the good news is probably as soon as you trade it, you're you know, you're you're good to go. You have the arrangement at least for that. So. Right. But but at any rate and I don't want people to think studios are only concerned about tax credits. Their first and foremost is still making a great film. But like producers, they're always trying to make sure that the of the money they've decided to allocate for it, the majority of it, as we say in the business, ends up on screen. Right. And so because they want the they want the viewer to be able to enjoy the full extent of of that budget in the in the creative so so with Missouri, I think at the time the tax credit had a 4 million and a half cap per year and up in the air, three quarters of its filming was almost a perfect match to the tax credit. And so that was good. So it made it. If Jason Reitman had wanted to make a movie where everything was in one city and we just pretended that one of the riverboat casinos at that time was Las Vegas or something like that, right? We actually wouldn't have had enough credit to match the expenditure. So at that size credit program and in 2009 dollars it was it was a perfect match made for this one film. But by the same token, it did highlight the need for the credit program to be perhaps a little bit larger if you want to attract more than one film in a year, hopefully multiple films for multiple years in a row, and that's taken a bit of time. But the new program is is bigger. You know, I think it's it's four times larger and then it's partition I believe 50% into film and 50% into television. So and attracting television is great for building a real base of employment, right? Because TV shows tend to have more days of shooting, though not all of them are the the 26 episodes that some of us grew up with. It's taken three quarters of a year, but they're usually at least ten episodes or so. And so that's nice. So the 8 million will maybe help start some of the progress towards television. And then, you know, the film, at least if we were still in 2009 dollars, it could attract two Up in the Air’s in one year instead of one. Right. Unfortunately, we're not quite there, but so maybe we could get one and a half up in the air or maybe for movies that are half the budget are up in the air or something like that. So it's a good, good place to build from now. I think, you know, we're obviously grateful to the legislators for deciding to try this new and expanded program. But if Saint Louis wants to turn itself and not just Saint Louis, but Kansas City and the whole rest of the state. Right. Of course, into the next Ohio, you know, I think they've had a$50 million program and that has enabled them to have some films in Cincinnati, some in Cleveland, maybe some in Columbus or other areas. And, you know, or there's the Atlanta story that I think a lot of people are familiar with, where they ended up having an uncapped incentive in so long as you meet the criteria of the program, you can bring your production there. And that's led in some years to many dozens of films and television and shows happening simultaneously in Atlanta, in the coastal cities of Georgia and other places. And so, you know, but I don't think Georgia had that program initially. But then at a certain point, sure. Cited, hey, this is the way we want to go and we want to keep doing it. And so perhaps Missouri will draw that conclusion after the the smaller program gets running. And or perhaps Missouri will decide this is this is what we want to do. But either way, it's great progress compared to the last well, what is it, almost ten years? Ten years isn't appropriate. Yeah. So let me let me take you here, too. And first of all, thank you. Thank you again for joining us and spending all this time. It's such a pleasure to converse with you. But to hear some of the real inside baseball to this process I think is so fascinating. And I know there's a lot of people in this town who will be and elsewhere be very happy to hear this stuff. But let me ask you something. And I I mentioned this before. One of the things I like to do with the guests on the podcast is ask them this question. What's on your screen? And, you know, the thought process behind that is, you know, that could be anything, right? We all carry screens in our in our pockets with us. We've got screens in our cars these days. We've got screens on our walls, could be on our laptops, could be our work, could be What's your you know, I've worked really hard all day. I going to shut my brain down and sit on my couch and what's going to be on my wall. So everybody answers that question a little bit differently. But for you, you make things for screens. So I'm not sure how you guys that answer this question. I know you have some projects in the works, but let me ask you, Michael, what's on your screen? All right. Well, you're right. I certainly use my screen for work. Like there's a program called Pix where we look at the dailies of films that we've shot and perhaps later in some cases, the director wants to share them the fully assembled cuts of the film. So I've got the things on my screen from both The Color Purple Musical which is coming out later this year, and then from Wolfs, which is the Brad Pitt George Clooney project from John Watts, the director of the last three Spider-Man movies. So I so that's a professional use of it. And then because I've had a lot of downtime while the industry has been out, I'm having a great time with some things that everybody else uses. I'm trying to learn those modern languages, Spanish and Italian, on Duolingo. So that's on my screen. Well, every day I do enjoy some of those online education things like Khan Academy, Udacity. Yeah, even M.I.T. OpenCourseWare. I got into that one time. And so there's a lot of fun, a lot of fun things to do in that sort of personal education. And then then, you know, for my work, I have to keep up with the latest film and television projects that I didn't work on, just sort of know who the actors are, the latest directors, their latest writers that can take all day, and then some if you if you really do it. Right. Right. So there's a certain amount of negotiation with my wife about which things will be family viewing, which things are strictly for me doing research or homework for an upcoming project. So all of those things are on my screens, but I do spend a lot of time on screen, so there's no doubt about that. So let me ask you about you mentioned The Color Purple, and obviously that's a very famous iconic book and movie one point in time. And now you're bringing a new updated musical version to the screen coming out Christmas Day, I believe. Is that right? That's right and I just I just watched the trailer or I guess the most recently released trailer just the other day. And it's stunning. Tell us about that. How did that work? I was very excited about that. Theater fans know that in the early 2000s, the Color Purple Stage musical was mounted in New York and eventually toured the country and won some Tonys. So one of our producers, Scott Sanders, was involved with that Stage musical as well as Oprah Winfrey. And so the inspiration for this project is actually the stage the stage musical taking the musical and bringing it to life. Steven Spielberg's classic and the book, you know, they they stand alone as the masterpieces they were. And we're not we're not remaking the Spielberg film. But he is one of our producers, as is Quincy Jones, the legendary music producer, but also producer of the original Color Purple. And the idea was to take those songs from the musical and bring them to life on the screen And fortunately, because I had had the good experience with La La Land, I got invited to join that project team about a year and a half before filming and and there's a director, Blitz Bazawule, who is a musician and artist in addition to being a director. So he's a really multi-hyphenate who is terrific and, and he's actually from Ghana originally, so he brings a new dimension to the project, to those who know the the story well, I know that part of it is about one of the sisters going off to Africa and being separated from the other sisters for a long period of time and so on. So so but it's it's, you know, something we're really hoping that people will enjoy. Oh, I bet that will be a big I bet that will be a big that's that. And they're just like, that should be. Yeah. So check out the trailers for now and then hopefully when the holiday season arrives in the theaters. It sounds great. Definitely a big, big screen project as we like to say, you know. So yeah, that's great. That is one. And I loved I love the idea that there there are movies that again are feel like they're drawing you back into the theater and they don't only involve superheroes, right? They're non superhero movies that are still event you know the experience of of watching the film with a bunch of other people with an audience. And I had kind of forgotten how much fun that can be when everybody gasps at the same time or laughs or is moved in the same way. So that's very cool. Well, thank you. I go from that in the pandemic and now, yeah, having new chances to experience that once again, for sure. You think this is a good one for that? That's great. Well, I am thrilled. I'm looking forward to seeing that and and learn a little bit more about Wolfs, but we'll probably have to have you back to talk more about that one, because it sounds like there's some interesting stuff going on there, too. That looks pretty cool right now. So I got to do that. I'd love to come back and talk about any topic that you can think of right. It's a deal. Help helps. It's a legend of The Screen Lawyer. It's great what you're doing to bring all these insights to people. I think I've found in my own life, and I'm sure a lot of others have that as you enter on this road as a creator and the creative process, you have this sense that are things that you need to know about the the law to protect your creation, but you don't want to get so hung up on it that that you don't focus on your creative process, but by the same and maybe you're not quite ready to phone up a lawyer just yet. So what do you do? Well, in the old days, you just said, I don't know anything about what to do. I don't have money for a lawyer. Now you can tune in to The Screen Lawyer. There you go. Hey, what are the things I should be thinking about as an artist as I begin my journey? And then after that, you're actually calling an attorney and you're saying, Yes, my journey is underway and and I'm ready to help work with you to help me achieve my dreams. So. Well, that's a great service you're providing to the creative community. Well, thank you. We're going to clip that off and use it for all of our promo materials now. But I appreciate that. Thank you. And it is, in fact, I think part of the reason we want to do this, I, I approached things going on a screen entirely, you know, from a different perspective. I'm a later in my career getting to it. But like you I just I love any way I can participate in that process. So this is this is a lot of fun. I appreciate that. Hey, everybody, if you have enjoyed this conversation, check us out. We drop our episodes every other Wednesday. You can find us and follow us wherever you get your audio podcasts. And if you're watching on YouTube, be sure and hit that like and subscribe button down below the screen. So you'll get all of the updates, you'll get all of the new episodes and anything else for posting and you can find it. All of this stuff at TheScreenLawyer.com. Michael, thanks again for joining us. And I do want to highlight for people that you will be on a panel with us in two weeks as part of the Saint Louis International Film Festival, and we're really looking forward to that. So, folks, we will provide more information about that. That'll be another place that you can hear from Michael and a lot of the people involved with the Missouri Film Tax credit. It's going to be a great episode. Looking forward to that and to my return to The Screen Lawyer. Thanks again for having me. And hey, a lot of fun. You're very welcome. And I can't wait until the actors get that agreement signed and you can get back to work. I'm looking forward to that too. I'm sure you are. All right, Michael, take care. Good to see you. Good to see you as well.