The Screen Lawyer V. Ed Herman #204

In this episode of the Screen Lawyer Podcast, Pete Salsich welcomes special guest Ed Herman, the seasoned attorney and co-owner of Brown & Crouppen. Ed reflects on his diverse career path, highlighting the importance of flexibility and embracing life's unpredictability. From high-profile trials to innovative digital entertainment collaborations with Coolfire Studios, Ed shares valuable insights into building genuine connections with clients, the creative process behind hit YouTube series like "Ed Vs." and "Three Lawyers Eating Sandwiches," and the joy of blending humor with legal expertise. Don't miss out on this engaging conversation about law, life, and the pursuit of meaningful storytelling.

Original Theme Song composed by Brent Johnson of Coolfire Studios.
Podcast sponsored by Capes Sokol.

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Transcript

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On this week's episode of the Screen Lawyer Podcast, I'm joined by my guest, Ed Herman of Brown& Crouppen. Ed is a lawyer who appears on screens. So he's a screen lawyer in his own right. Welcome, Ed. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I've never thought of myself that way, but yeah, I am. You are? I thought this thing was named for me. I know it is. Now. Stick around. Hi, there. Welcome to the Screen Lawyer podcast. I'm Pete Salsich, The Screen Lawyer. And today, I'm joined by Ed Herman. Ed is a lawyer in Saint Louis, a friend of friends. A great screen personality. But more interestingly, I think lately is you’re a lawyer who shows up on everybody else's screens. Trying to you can't you can't avoid me. I try to. That's kind of true. And it's it's really interesting. I want to take people through it. And first of all, welcome. Thanks for joining us. I appreciate you having me. It's great to have you on the show. And what's interesting, too, we found out this morning this isn't even your first podcast of the day. No, no. My firm Brown& Crouppen is the title sponsor of the TMA and The Morning After STL Podcast, which is a daily podcast. But once a week on Tuesdays, Andy and I will alternate making an appearance on there. We had a great time this morning that they had on there? No. None other than Ozzie Smith, and I was on there with him and we tell you he's about as nice of a guy as you're going to meet. And I think it's sincere. I don't think he's putting that on. Yeah, well, I mean, he's you see him on screens all the time, obviously, after his playing career, he's been very ubiquitous in the community and he always has that smile. But, you know, if you don't really know him, you don't know if that's true or know just the fact that he stayed in Saint Louis. You think about it, he retired 28 years ago. Yeah. And he made this his home and he stays in the community and he's always raising money for charities. I've never seen him refuse a picture, an autograph. It's like the community gives him a space, lets him live, and he gives back nonstop. He's just. And he looks fabulous. The guy's turning 70. I'm like, I'm 52. And he, you know, I look like I could be his father. Well, he he does sort of look like he could still field the position for at least a few, you know, at least as well as the average shortstop, probably not as well as he was able to do it the best there ever was. Yeah. I think that statistically, they yeah, they just came out with some even more data showing that he was the best fielder at any position in the history of baseball. Holy cow. Like, even with the advanced statistics that they're using. Yeah, well, you know, I had no. I was telling him that nobody will ever catch him because, you know, he spent a lot of his career playing on artificial turf. And those may not be big baseball fans, but artificial turf was like concrete. Right. The ball would come off in there faster than it would go into it. Whereas, you know, like grass usually likes the ball a little slower. He was the best. They'll never be another. I agree. I agree. Well, that's really cool. Well, I don't we don't I don't think we have any surprise guests coming in this morning. But if they do, I'm sure you'll handle that well, too. Yeah, I hope so. You know, you never know. That's true. Well, listen, let's talk a little bit about your career. You've been a lawyer for a fairly long time. Now you're a pro. What's your practice? Yeah, well, you know, most people, if they've heard the name Brown & Crouppen- they know that we're the largest personal injury law firm in Saint Louis and have been for a very long time. I that was not the first firm I ever worked at. I worked at a couple of firms prior to that, did a little work on the defense. I didn't care for it. I wanted to be a plaintiff's lawyer, went to Brown & Crouppen in the summer of 2001, and now here it is 23 years later, and I'm one of the two owners of the firm. I mean, who would have ever predicted that? Just goes to show you, folks. Just just just keep it life. Keep going forward. You never know what's behind the next door. And I would have never predicted that for myself. But here I am. Yeah. You know, I think that's really true about not being able to predict too far in advance. I got good advice when I was a young lawyer trying to figure out, you know, you're looking, is this the right firm or what I want to do? And and somebody said, you know, think of your try to visualize life in sort of 3 to 4 years segments, because at that point, you know, law school wasn't that far removed. That was three years undergrad, four years. You're used to sort of visualizing yourself transporting from year one to year four. It's kind of hard to picture much further than that. Yeah, and I don't know that it's helpful looking much further than that. You know, that's the thing is, is there's always that line between how much do you want to have planned and how much do you want to leave room for surprise and being nimble and improvization, I find that I live my entire life in every aspect of it, almost the exact same way. I have a general outline as to what I want to do, but I don't script anything out all the way through and I think you have to leave that clear to leave room for organic, leave room to let the wind kind of blow you. I always picture the feather at the beginning of Forest Gump, and sometimes I think, you know what? I'm not sure at a given moment what I want to do. I picture myself as that feather and I see where the wind is going to go into just sort of relax into it. Don't force it. Yeah, that's that's wow, I love that. And it makes a lot of sense, too, because I think also if you if you get yourself too scripted, too to this, then this and this and this, the fact is the world doesn't typically let you do that, right? There's so much happening that we couldn't predict. And I that was something that helped me during that, you know, because I didn't think I would be doing this as a lawyer right. I never thought I was going to be in the entertainment world. I got into it by, you know, sort of backdooring into what we thought was in 2000 a silly little First Amendment case that was going to be a summary judgment. And it turned out that eight years of Tony Twist versus Spawn Comics litigation. Right. And at the end of that, I was a comic book lawyer. Wow. I didn't know that you were the guy. Yeah, I was. I was well, I was one of the I was a young associate. That was a big deal here. And it was a huge deal to talk about. It was first time I was ever on any media. As you know, the local newspapers and TV were covering those trials. I was like, Wow, this stuff is really cool. And comic books are way more fun than hail damage on a roof or whatever else I had been seeing. That's the other thing I've learned about legal marketing is the one thing nobody wants to hear about is is really the law right now. That's why when I do the videos- Ed Vs and Three Lawyers Eating Sandwiches - we really try to bring bring what the people want and then let them get to know you. Yeah, I mean, to me, there's nothing really that sells you better than people feeling a genuine connection with who you are. Not it's not about going on and just telling people how great of a lawyer you are. I mean, honestly, people, when people boast about them being great, I think other people's natural instinct is to want to take them down a peg, not to want to latch on to them. Right. I think you're much better off being being genuine, letting people in with a little vulnerability. Then they feel close to you. And when they feel close to you, that's when they trust you. That's what they want to hire you. Not because you told them how great you are right now. That makes a ton of sense. I mean, they said, you know, philosphy - well, if you were actually great, you wouldn't have to tell me you were great. Yeah, and I get it. Look, advertising works. And, you know, Coca Cola is happy to tell you, you know how delicious it is. And they have made a quality product. Folks, I'm not going to say they haven't. But but I think when you look at the commercials, what people are really responding to are the emotions of it, the joy People say you buy with your heart and you rationalize the purchase with your head. And I think the same is true of almost all major decisions in your life. You know, you are pulled by that force all at your heart or soul or whatever, and then the head is just there to kind of rationalize. Right. And hopefully not talk you out of it completely, although it may be safe, although it the brain does do that. I just read a book you might find interesting called Don't Believe Everything You Think. And the whole point of it was to remind you that the process of thinking is a survival mechanism. We were built that way. It's reptilian. It's just to survive and navigate the world. It's not to lead us toward happiness and joy like that's not the purpose of thinking. So one of the quotes in the book was I've I've thought myself out of happiness a million times, but I've never thought myself into happiness even once. Interesting. That's not what the brain is for. Think of the brain is there for survival and think of the heart. Is there for you to actually enjoy. You know, find that peace and joy. Yeah, I like that. I like that little book. It was a listen, I'm not a huge reader. It was only like 115 pages, but I thought it was gold. Excellent. All right. Well, we'll have to check that out, everybody. What title again? Don't believe everything you think. Don't believe it. By Joseph Nguyen N G U Y EN. All right, Very good. We'll pop that up there, folks. That will be in the comments. So, you know, you teed up a little bit a couple of your series. So step back a little bit with this. And we we got connected through our mutual friends, Jeremy Corray and the team at Coolfire Studios. Yes, great guys. And you you may or may not know that when the first round of Brown & Crouppen TV was built up, I was Coolfire’s lawyer doing all those contracts for. is that right? Yeah. How do you like that? He was writing it all out, so there you go. But I wasn't that you know, that's one of the things about sort of being an entertainment attorney. This is my chance to be sort of on screen. I'm typically reading the things and doing the documents together to make it possible. And it's really fun to be in a little way in the production world myself. And it's also fun to sort of see it happen. And I remember when you guys were starting the conversation, I just remember that there were these ideas, well, let's we could do a series about this would be a series of that. And they were going to make videos, you know, to support the law firm. Yeah, right. I mean, that's the original intent, right? Isn't that the point? Yes. And it's baseline at it's baseline. Yeah. There's an interesting back story there. Coolfire was actually running commercials. They were doing commercials for Lena’s Frozen Pizza, which is the Imo’s branch. When they market it in supermarkets, it's Lena’s Instead of Imo’s. And they were doing these commercials called True Confessions, and they used the guys from the Rizzuto Show and they wanted to do a second generation. And they thought, you know, who else around here is sort of a local celeb that might do these Lena’s commercials? So they reached out to Terry Crouppen, who was very well-known from all the commercials. And Terry said, Well, you should have me on with with with my my partners, you know, Ed and Andy. And we could do just like the Rizz guys did. So we wound up going in and we did that. We had an absolute blast just just for fun shooting these pizza commercials. They were all mostly improvizational. And the guy had Jeremy. at Coolfire was like, These guys need to be doing some digital entertainment. They would be good on screen and it would show a different side to the public, right? So we sat down and started brainstorming and we came up with so many bad ideas, but then also, you know, a handful of good ideas. We wound up producing four different shows. Two of them really hit with the public, and I kept doing those two. One of them we rebranded and turned into a weekly podcast, and then the other one, it just was very expensive to produce, so we dropped it. But Ed Vs. and Three Lawyers Eating Sandwiches really found a pretty good audience. Yeah. So tell us about Three Lawyers Eating Sandwiches first, walk us through that because I think those things cracked me up. Yeah, well, that was really to me, that was the most perfect combination. If you're going to do sort of a show to, to build your, your self in a community because we thought, you know, so many people. Terry, Andy and I have had lunch together over 2000 times. That's not an exaggerated number. We sat down and did the math and, you know, we bust each other's chops. Sometimes the conversations are serious. Mostly they're, they're fun. And every so often somebody join us for lunch and they'll say, Sitting with you guys, it's like sitting in the cafe on Seinfeld, you just you never know what you're going to talk about. It's always interesting and funny. And so we thought, you know, maybe we should do a show where we're sitting around and eating and it'll be like people are joining us and maybe they'll find it entertaining and we could feature local businesses and we can, you know, be sincere and highlight some great offerings that that the city has to offer. And all the elements just came together, just online. People love food and they love to glam out on it, you know, with pictures and they love to geek out on it with commentary. And so we did that. And let me tell you that doing that show was really just joyous. It was joyous, too, to try all the different foods and just see how much great stuff we had. And each of those videos are what they end up being. About 10 minutes, 10 minutes long. Yeah. And you're not there isn't a by the way, let's slip in a discussion of a case or a legal strategy or anything that's very authentic conversation. It is. You know, it honestly, people listen. If there was something legitimately interesting that lived in that world that people really would care about, we would talk about it. But more often than not, that's not what people talk about, right? People sit around their tables. They talk about what they watched on TV or a movie they saw or an opinion they have about some lunacy going on in the world. And, you know, that's how real people talk, right? And so we never had any script. We didn't even have a list of topics. We would just trust that when the food was in front of us, our personalities would come out and they would do it. And we always trusted, you know, the editing process. Sure. So, you know, we filmed for an hour or two. I used to edit them with Roxanne over at Coolfire. And believe me, you know, if you get an hour and a half of material, you can get 10 minutes of gold. See, that's what we think about here, right, Chris? And Andie? You know, you know, we try to find a little bit of gold in our ramble. Yeah. Listen, listen. We're not in Hollywood getting paid. Bazillions of dollars. We only have to be marginally amusing. Well, and I think that's you said something there that I think is really interesting. You know, that if there was something, you know, let's say you were in. I don't know. You can't even make up the idea. But there could be. You don't go into this with a today. We're going to talk about this. Yeah, this episode is going to be about this right now, on Ed Vs. of course, I always do my topic ahead of time and but even that, I always had, you know, bullet points. But every take we did would always be different because if it's not coming fresh out of my mouth in the moment, it just listen. I'm not a professional actor. I can't take a line that's been written and make it sound completely fresh in the moment. The only way it's going to sound fresh is if it is fresh, right? So, you know, but those topics and even those pizza, it's nuts. So let's have let's give the audience who don't know. And first of all, if you don't know already, you need to go check out Ed Vs, on YouTube. You can find it. And they are hysterical. So I was watching the one that I was watching this morning was Ed V. Airplanes. And it's all a little old, you know, six, 7 minutes of rules about mostly with you sitting in the middle seat. And that that's great because that was a lot. It literally just got back on a trip. My wife is in the airline industry. It was, my God, we bonded on that one. I was that was one of the most fun days I've ever had doing anything in my life. You know, when I had prepared, it wasn't the first episode we did, but it was a breakthrough. Ed V. Cereal was the breakthrough with the audience. That's the one that got all the attention and built my whole audience. Ed V. Airplanes was the first time, you know, where Coolfire had said, You know, we can make you look like you're sitting inside an airplane. I'm like, How are you going to do that? Because I my the limits of my imagination were we were just going to set up three chairs next to each other. And I was going to tell people to imagine we were on an airplane. They went on eBay and got just one row of seats for $700. And then they built everything around it and then went real tight with the shot. And I mean, it looks it looks like it's in an airplane. If that's my first Emmy was for best lifestyle program for Ed V. Airplanes. And that was a shocker because the first time I ever went into Coolfire Studios, they've got all these Emmys all over from stuff that they've done. And I half jokingly, but half, not half dead serious, said to Jeremy, I said, How do I win one of those? And he said, Stick with me, buddy. And it sounds exactly like Jeremy. And yeah, and that's what happened. So that one got an Emmy for, you know, the Mid-America, you know, which is the same National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. But they break it into different parts of the country when it's not like the big primetime stuff. That was a shocker, though. First of all, of a few more. Yeah. So set the premise up? So in each one of these the ED V. you just sort of riff on a topic and it seems to me you're it's more it's not a deconstruction that's too overthinking it but it's just how do you how do you get started. So Ed V. Cereal you said was the one of the breakthroughs. Yeah, I would say that people have described it as an ability to articulate the minutia, which I think there are a lot of comedic sensibilities out there, kind of, you know, looking at that same thing, I'd say my my sense of humor comes very much from that same school of like Larry David. But I'm a little I'm a little kinder, a little bit more kind of if you can combine Jim Gaffigan and Larry David somewhere in there, that's a good time to get somebody who is soft and cuddly, but also, you know, can't help but see all of these micro injustices in the world and believe it's my job to fix them. So, yeah, each of those episodes like Ed V. Airplanes, for example, I was literally in the middle seat on a short flight from Kansas from Saint Louis to Kansas City. And what got me was, you know, whenever people order a hot beverage on an airplane, like that's the one that really started it. I'm like, I don't understand why they're getting coffee at such a short flight. They don't they don't give it to you with a lid. And I'm like, literally, this is, you know, if you've ever taken the flight on Southwest from Saint Louis to Kansas City, quite often they don't even do beverage service because they'll say if there's even a skosh of turbulence, they they look for an excuse not to have to work the aisles. And I'm like, you know, these hot beverages are being passed around and nobody's panicking. Only me, only I go into an intense anxiety or if they're passing a drink, a very full drink. Right. And I've got to pass it to the person on the window. I don't want to be part of that, you know, But when it goes over me, I'm like, that's the only time I pray. I'm not a big praying guy, but I do pray in that moment because I think if this thing spills on me, you know, and of course, haven't they just told you a minute ago at any moment I'm going to plane? Yeah, they tell me when I'm sitting. I got to keep my seatbelt fastened because of the risk of that. But they're passing such an overly full like right to the brim, you know, thing. And I'm like, Listen, I'm not going to lie. I travel light if I'm on the road. I probably did not bring a backup pair of pants. I'm going to go with the ones I have and it's going to it's going to take me, you know, end to end. So I can't I can't risk that. So so what happened is on that flight, I just took out my phone and I jotted down that one thing that this business of why the heck would people get coffee on an airplane? It's a one hour flight and there's no lid. Explain that. And as I started looking around, I started writing down other why? Why questions? Why? Why is it why is that person trying to get that bag into the overhead when that clearly is not going to fit? You know, and I love watching them struggle with it. I'm not going to lie, you know, And those why questions just added up until before you know it. I had enough there forever and I always shot like like Ed V. Bathrooms, which I think is the best thing I've ever done. That's my I told people that's my Citizen Kane. If you're only going to watch one Ed V., watch Ed V. Bathrooms. So that one really brought it all together for me simultaneously, my most relatable episode and also my most personal episode. But anyway, with those things kind of go together, right? Typically, if you're personal, you're more relatable. You can be unless unless you stumble on revealing that one thing that truly was not universal, you thought maybe it was. And everybody's looking, really? It's only me. Everyone is looking at you like you're nuts. But like, for Ed V. Bathrooms, I went in and did an hour and 15 minutes of material, just everything under the sun I can think of as every type of bathroom. But then when we went to actually edit it, I really had a focus. You know, we always say if you want the final product to be gold, you got to cut out all the silver, right? You know, when you can't just cut out the bad stuff, you got to cut out the good stuff and only leave the great stuff. So by the time we did that, I think we had about ten and a half minutes, but somewhere on some cutting room floor over at Coolfire, there's there's another hour of me riffing on bathrooms. I did a whole I did 20 minutes on urinals. None of it made it to the final product because I thought, you know what? Half the audience is women. And actually my audience tends to skew a little higher on the women's side. I think for us, a good looking guy, I think for us that makes a ton of sense to me. So bring us up forward now. We've talked about you being on screens and how that happened and this is all still ongoing, right? Are you still doing it is where we are. And we've actually we're launching a Three Lawyers Podcast, so if you're into this audience that you might be sure. And also during the course of that, I developed my moniker as the Godfather of Law, which became on all my social channels. So like you could find me personally on Facebook, but if you want to go on the fan page, it's the Godfather of Law.. And and we shot a great commercial. I guess it wasn't for television, but it was it was my Godfather of Law commercial that, you know, got its own big following. And it led to a rather large tattoo on my arm. Really? Yeah. If I can maybe show your audience, it's like, right. But it's like in there, folks, that is. You're getting it first. Wow. that you didn't know this was sitting underneath a sweater. it just seems like a regular, mild mannered 52 year old lawyer. There's I think is the godfather of law. I keep them guessing. You got to keep saying we just hit some gold here with this. That's not silver. That’s staying in. That's it. Yeah. They'll cut my silver out. But your gold is sticking. So speaking of gold, one of the things I like to do on this podcast with my guests and thank you again for hanging out, this is a delight is to ask what's on your screen. So you know, a frame that asks this all the time of guests here. I talk about it as well because, you know, pretty much every business now puts things on screens. And obviously there's there's so many ways to consume in so many ways we think about that because we carry our screens with us. We've got them on our laptops, on our walls. So I’m always curious, you know, if I just say what's on your screen without anything else, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? What's on your screen? Well, I do watch a lot of television. So for me, I actually spent yesterday bingeing and I know I'm late to the party, but the first season of the White Lotus, you know, got a lot of attention. I heard the second season's even better, but I like to do things in order. So I watched the whole first season in one day I enjoyed it very much. I thought it was quirky and delightful and interesting performances and funny. I mean, it was you know, it didn't take itself too seriously. Right. But a lot of what I watch on there, I like watching Shark Tank because I am the easiest person in the world to sell anything, to. I admit it. I'm a mark. My curiosity gets aroused very, very quickly. And when I see a product that looks interesting, I've bought about half of the Shark Tank Products, just to try them. So I liked I like to watch that. And also my favorite television show of all is The Food that Built America, which you can watch. And it is fascinating. The history of this country is really the history of our food and in the last hundred years, all of these things that we take for granted, all of these brands that we know, they all have these incredible origin stories. And you don't just learn about the food and you don't just learn about history, but you want to learn about business, innovation, pivoting, competition. This show is fantastic for it. And it just started its fifth season and I was watching last night's premiere episode was the back story of Minute Maid, Orange Juice and Tropicana orange juice and how, you know, you know, we take it for you grew up your whole life drinking orange juice. You know, it wasn't even available in the grocery store until after World War Two. I mean, that's how recent orange juice is. And just seeing the stories behind these folks, it's fascinating. Wow. Yeah. All right. Every brand you've ever heard of their episodes, like, that's very cool. See, this is this part of the reason I asked this question? Because, you know, I'm that person. It's like, it's got to be something to watch. What was that thing that I thought I saw that one time? And I got notes somewhere. So this is now my record keeping for all sorts of suggestions. It's true. And, you know, it's I'm a great person to hang out with, if you don't mind hearing a lot of stories about food history. But because if you're going to go to a restaurant with me is a very good chance that there's going to be some item on the table that I'm going to know an incredible amount of detail on and you're going to hear it. So if you're into it, you're going to love spending that time with me. If you're not, humor me and tune me out. Very good. Well, then I think we we need to have a follow up meeting around a meal, a sandwich, some pasta or what are we just. My wife and I just got back from a trip and. And ate throughout the whole trip and it was. It is always fascinating to we like the same sort of thing. What is it that's in this part of the country or this part of the region where we were in Italy? And so coming from northern Italy down to Milan, down to Florence to Rome and then getting into some of the other side areas, my wife works in the airline industry and so we we do these trips where, you know, sometimes you don't know till the last minute exactly where you're going. And so the things about the carry on luggage, all of that was very fun because that's how we travel. And food is such an important part of that experience. That's the best no matter where you go. And I imagine Italy, you know, from what everybody tells me, I haven't been there, but that's that's probably the best food you can get. It was it was amazing. And to think, you know, in in Saint Louis we have such an Italian community here and great Italian food, but we sort of think of it as I thought, that's you know, I'm lumping it all kind of in, and then realize, well, in this region, this is where this is the best and this region, this is the best. And, you know, in The Food that Built America, there are episodes. And, you know, we joke about things like SpaghettiOs, like we laugh at it, Right. But the history of SpaghettiOs and the impact that that had on acclimating children to pasta in a way that they could eat it, that set them up for a lifetime of enjoying that food, being drawn to those flavors. You know, pizza wasn't outside of New York City. You couldn't get pizza in this country, you know, before the 1960s when it came out and Pizza Hut introduced it. Nobody knew what it was. They had to describe in the early article what exactly pizza was like talking about the 1960s. You know, pizza in this country is about as old as the Beatles in this country. It's not that long. That's wild. I had no idea. I would never have thought, he's going to run right home after this and start from episode one. And I am I am sorry for all the work I'm supposed to be doing today. Ed, this has been fantastic. Thank you again. Really appreciate. I wish I had even more interesting things to talk about. I wish we had more time would stay and watch it. Yeah. So. So when's the next Are you into a new season of any of the productions? Yeah, well, I. As soon as our editor is done with it, the very first the pilot episode of The Three Lawyers Podcast is going to be hitting the airwaves. We talked about a wide variety of topics and we filmed the first episode in our Airstream, which is in the middle of our new headquarters, which is on The Hill. It's a beautiful building. It is great. And I mean, talking about Italian food, that's what we're eating now at Brown & Crouppen, on The Hill.. On Daggett. Yeah, the biggest building on The Hill it is. Boy, it is something else to see. We were driving around like, whoa. Well, when you're ready for a tour, come down, I will do that. I'll take you down on it. I can't wait. We'll get some pasta now in. All right. Well, Ed, thanks very much. And folks, if you've enjoyed this episode of the podcast, you can get our podcast wherever you get your audio podcast, We drop every other Wednesday, find us and follow us there. And if you're watching on YouTube, like and subscribe, look for the repeat buttons and find Ed V., The Three Lawyers, The Godfather of Law, BCTV.com. BBC TV.com one place has has everything that's we do the same thing TheScreenLawyer.com will give you all you need in this environment. Stick around Join us next time on The Screen Lawyer Podcast.