Ghost Protocol: Family Edition (with Sana Wagner)

Episode 09: Enforce boundaries for your own sake — and your family’s.

Sana Wagner is an amazing example of bucking the societal norms that come with a traditional immigrant family. After unilaterally being sent to Pakistan and dealing with toxic behavior, she has learned the importance of standing ground and drawing a line, even if it means an incommunicado relationship with her relatives. Tune in for an eye-opening conversation with the first remote guest on Immigrant Unfiltered.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe for more inspiring and thought-provoking conversations.
______________________________________________________

Let’s work together: hamzainvests.com

Visit our website: immigrantunfiltered.com

For all inquiries, please email: zahra@hamzainvests.com
______________________________________________________

Connect with Sana:

tiktok.com/@simplysana_a

instagram.com/simplysana_a
______________________________________________________

Subscribe to watch Immigrant Unfiltered videos: youtube.com/@immigrantunfiltered

Subscribe to watch my vlogs: youtube.com/@hamzainvests

Transcript

Hamza Ali: It's the Immigrant Unfiltered Podcast with your host Hamza Ali. And today I had the honor of meeting virtually remotely, my first remote guest. Son Wagner, who's on social media. We met through TikTok. My team reached out to her because she discusses a lot of controversial issues on social media that a lot of people don't talk about.

Son, thank you for being here. Really appreciate it. Appreciate your time. I wanted to talk about, before we get into anything and discuss more, you know, about your journey and your details. I really wanted to get to know who ISS Wagner. So tell us, tell our audience a little bit about who you are and whos Wagner is.

So 

Sana Wagner: I am a 28 year old mom of two. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. Um, I am married. I have been married for, I guess we're coming up on eight years now. Um, I got [00:01:00] married, yeah, I got married pretty young. I was only 20. Um, I originally started on social media because I had been a stay-at-home mom for a few years, and it was, it was isolating.

Um, so I started on social media. I initially was going to share d i y home projects cause that's, I love doing that. Um, and I shared a little bit of like my kids, my husband and I quickly found that there was a community that wanted to learn more about that. Um, so that was, that was interesting. I wasn't ever planning on, you know, sharing my personal life, but here we are.

Um, so I like to talk about, you know, My interracial marriage. I talk about toxic family systems, which has been interesting. Um, I also like to talk about like brown girl struggles, mom life. Um, my love for fashion, um, and all of that. I feel like if I [00:02:00] can even help one person feel less alone in their struggles and what they're going through, then it's all, it's all worth it for me.

Hamza Ali: That's awesome. Thank you for sharing. So when did you find this journey of yours, uh, on social media? Like when did you decide that this is what you wanted to use and also what are the platforms or what is the main platform that you decided to do this on? 

Sana Wagner: Um, I mean, I had been on, you know, TikTok and Instagram for a while.

Just kind of scrolling, not really creating. Um, I just felt like, you know, TikTok is still new enough to where you can hop on it and it's organic enough to where my message can come out and reach other people. Um, so yeah, it was, it was TikTok and then from TikTok I kind of stepped out of my comfort zone and went to Instagram, which.

Was terrifying. Um, but yeah, here we are. 

Hamza Ali: And so did you start when everybody else started, which is like, I guess 2020 when the pandemic first began and [00:03:00] everybody was jumping on social media because that's where they were finding, um, people to communicate with? Or are you more recent than that? Um, 

Sana Wagner: I've only been doing it for like a year and a half.

Uh, I wish I had started during the pandemic. Uh, I was very pregnant with my daughter during the pandemic. And I had my son who was like, You know, they're 22 months apart, so he was little too. Uh, and I actually was very like against TikTok, you know, my sister would send me TikTok all the time, like, you gotta watch this.

So funny. I'm like, no like's lame, whatever. So the irony. 

Hamza Ali: Yeah. That's awesome. I remember when I had first jumped on TikTok everything, or everyone was telling me that, Hey, za, look, you're a target audience. Your demographic is not on TikTok. It's just a bunch of people dancing. And I jumped on early on, you know, right after the pandemic or Right during the pandemic rather.

And today, I mean, most of my business is run through social media. Right, right. Is that something that you would say is working for you [00:04:00] as well? Yeah. 

Sana Wagner: Yeah. I, you know, I've taken a few breaks here and there. Um, last year was, It's really hard for me. I went through so much stuff. Um, so, you know, I took breaks when needed and I found that the community was very welcoming every time I came back.

It is a part of my day-to-day life. Um, I actually do some social media management on this side now. Um, so, 

Hamza Ali: you know, so does that mean you're managing other accounts, like other than your own personal account? 

Sana Wagner: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I work, uh, yeah, I work for a local plastic surgeon. Um, I'm new to this practice, but I was working for another surgeon before this, and I love it.

It's, you know, it's flexible enough to wear, I don't have to put my kids in daycare. I don't have to leave 'em with the sitter. Um, But yeah, I'm also able to kind of do my own thing and like not be your mom all the time. That's 

Hamza Ali: awesome. I just think it's crazy how right after the pandemic these opportunities have [00:05:00] opened up and now you have all these like remote opportunities that are absolutely phenomenal and very important for the workplace.

And I also feel like they're a win-win for everyone who's involved. I, 

Sana Wagner: I mean, I agree. There's so many. It's so much more convenient, and I honestly feel like I'm so much more productive working from home. I'm able to get like a day's worth of work done within a few hours. Um, you know, with my kids I'm able to, you know, do household chores, run a load of laundry while I'm editing.

Um, yeah, I, you know, Online work is the way to 

Hamza Ali: go. Walk us through your journey, son. Uh, you post a lot of lifestyle stuff. You post a lot about your kids. You also post interesting controversy, and we won't hear 

Sana Wagner: about that. It's very, it's random. It's whatever, kind of, whatever I'm going through in real life.

I, I guess I kind of use TikTok as like an online diary in a way. Um, it's, you know, it's whatever I'm going through in life. I, my dad recently passed away, so I've been sharing. You know, parts of that, how we've navigated [00:06:00] that and extended family, how, you know, that fun stuff has played out. Um, yeah, so I, I don't really have a strategy per se, but I, I post whatever I'm going through and sometimes it does great and people resonate and sometimes it flos and I'm left there, you know, alone.

It's fine. 

Hamza Ali: I'm sorry to hear about your father and I am sure that impacted you greatly. But here's the, but here's the thing, right? You have an audience and they're here for you. And in these difficult times, you know, you have to know that they are here for you and they're listening to what you have to say.

Walk me through all the controversial content that you have on your platform. Now, obviously, you know, being part of the Daisy community, the, the Middle Eastern community, there's a set of laws, there's a set of rules that you're obviously breaking. And I just wanna understand why it's important for you to spread this message.

Sana Wagner: Um, I feel like when I was going through these high conflict parts of my life, I felt very alone and very isolated. Um, social media does a really good [00:07:00] job of making it look like it's all rainbows and butterflies. It's a highlight reel, and no one really talks about what's going on behind the scenes. On the off chance that I did see some content while scrolling that I related to it was, it was comforting to know, you know, I'm not the only one going through this.

Um, so it was important to me that when I started posting content like this, that people are able to relate to it to feel less. Less alone. Um, you know, it's not normal, but it's common going through some of these things. My TikTok is heavy on toxic family issues and setting boundaries, you know, going no contact if needed.

Um, which, you know, in the brown community is very taboo, right? Like what your parents say goes, um, And so, yeah, I, I feel like it's an important conversation to have. I don't feel like everyone has, [00:08:00] you know, loving, supporting family as, I mean, you can see in the comments it's, there's so many people that are hurting out there.

It's unfortunate, but it's an important conversation to have. Yeah, 

Hamza Ali: I totally get it. The convenience of having your family next to you is a huge advantage. I myself, have my sister and my mom who live close by and me having young kids, it's just such an advantage. I feel like the American culture is just not built that way.

Right. People are more independent and they want their freedom. 

Sana Wagner: I am the oldest of three. Both of my parents are immigrants. My mom is, or speaking, my dad is Punjabi speaking. Um, so grew, grew up learning both of them. Grew up with, uh, school being the most important thing. I am very fortunate in where I didn't really have to ever work to pay bills.

I, you know, I started working like retail here and there when I was like 18 for extra spending money. Um, but I never had to work to survive. There was always just finished school, get your degree [00:09:00] and then, you know, you have your whole life to work and I'm very fortunate for that. Um, I, it was a very typical brown household in where there was a heavy, it was important like what other people thought.

Like our image, you know, what, what will the aunties say? Um, you know, you can't do this. Like you can't do that. And I knew from a very early age when I had my family, when I had my kids, I didn't want any of that. Um, There's just no need for it. If you're not eating at my dining table, at the end of the day, I really don't care about your opinion.

So that was me. I guess I was like the rebellious one because I was always very outspoken about these issues growing up and being the oldest, my parents weren't really used to that. Um, so heavy influence on school. You know, my parents wanted me to go to med school, become a doctor, quickly realized I can't do math.

So I got a degree in psychology, [00:10:00] um, which isn't a doc. Like, it's not, I'm not a doctor, so my dad wasn't too happy with that. Um, but I'm happy with it. You know, I'm very passionate about mental health and all that. Um, my dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's when I was. 10 years old ish, I believe. Um, and I remember, you know, learning about it and learning that, you know, it's terminal.

Like you don't, you only have a certain life expectancy. I was at 10 years old. Um, so we dealt with that and that became a really big part of our life, was my dad being sick. And a lot of people don't realize about Parkinson's is it not only affects your motor skills, but it also affects you mentally. Um, so my dad, probably around 2000, I wanna say probably around 2012, 2013, had developed Parkinson's disease psychosis.[00:11:00] 

Um, but we didn't know it was psychosis at the time. We just thought, you know, he's, all these things that he's hallucinating, that he's seeing, maybe they aren't real. They weren't, but we didn't know that at the time. Um, so he was just, he was super paranoid. He was already a very, a very controlling, he's like your typical brown dad.

That's very stereotyped, you know? Um, and so around my, like my high school years, I was just trying to be a teenager. I was trying to fit in with everyone. And my dad realized that my values were not aligning with his values. And I was pulled out of school and sent to Pakistan. Um, and I was sent to live with relatives that I didn't really know.

So that was, I think that was one of the biggest turning points of my life was because there was such a heavy. Like push for, you know, [00:12:00] school is so important. You gotta do school, you gotta do well. I was like a straight A student and then all of a sudden I'm pulled out of school because my values aren't aligning with like my dad's values.

So, um, I lived in Pakistan on and off for a few years. I ended up graduating high school online, um, like a few months early than my peers. And then I started in college here. Um, back in my hometown. I'm in Reno, Nevada. Started there. Um, you know, at this point I'm like 18 years old and my dad's mental health is declining.

So my mom is really busy in taking care of my dad and dealing with all that, and I'm big into school and taking care of my younger brother and sister. We were all very close. Um, my sister's three years younger than me and then my brother's six years younger than me, so, Dealt with that for a little bit.

You know, I'm balancing school, my siblings home life [00:13:00] and things are getting pretty bad at home. I, you know, none of us are really sure how to deal with this psychosis. We didn't even realize it was psychosis at the time. We just, there was just lots of big fights happening and we just thought, you know, this is life.

In the meantime, I didn't realize that my dad had sent my pictures to like a matchmaker. Um, I'm like 19 around this time, and so, you know, they're having, he's having conversations with me. You know, it's good to settle down, do whatever you want after you're married, you know, um, marry someone that can take care of you financially.

You don't have to ever worry. He essentially didn't want me to struggle financially the way he did as an immigrant. You know, he came here with a hundred dollars, his name, you know, did the whole thing. So, Decided to give it kind of a shot more for my mom's sake. She pleaded with me. You know, just try. So this, my picture got around to this [00:14:00] surgeon's family, and I guess he liked how I looked, whatever, went to go visit them down there.

Great guy. He was, you know, in the middle of his residency. Um, but after meeting him a few times, I just, I knew it wasn't going to work. There was no way. Um, he's great guy. He's a very successful plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills house. I have nothing bad to say, didn't work out, told my mom about it. She's like, all right, like, I'll handle it.

She had the whole arranged marriage thing, you know, she was married when she was 17. She essentially did not want me to be like unhappy with my life, but at the same time, she didn't have too much of a say because my dad was like the head of the household. There was no there, there was no convincing him.

Um, so during this time I was also kind of talking to one of my friends from high school that I had met when I was 13. We had been talking for like two years. [00:15:00] We really liked each other. Um, I've known him, you know, half my life at this point, but one day my mom just confronted me. She is like, I know you're talking to someone.

Who is it? I'm like, oh no. Oh my gosh. It's that sixth sense. It's it Ha She knew I don't know how, and keep in mind, like, this is all long distance. You know, he's in the military, he's stationed in Hawaii, I'm in Nevada. Um, so she's like, you're always on the phone, you're always FaceTiming. Just tell me. So I was like, Ugh.

Well what's like, what's the worst that could happen? Right? Like, I'm, I'm 19 now, you know, they can't send me to Pakistan. Like I'm an, I'm an adult. So I told her, and she's like, you know, if this is. Who you feel like your partner is going to be. Um, then you, you have my blessing. She, she knew that my dad wasn't going to stop trying to get me married off and she, she trusted my judgment.

Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm talking to my now husband and I'm like, I finally told my mom [00:16:00] about us. Like, what do you think? And he's like, well, let's get married. And I'm like, ok. So, uh, he came back from deployment. We had, we just did our in, uh, and I moved out and I moved to Hawaii and I was a military wife. Um, which that was, you know, that was a life of its own.

It's crazy to think back at it now. Um, So, and then he got out of the military. He had done his four years. We decided to move back to Nevada to be close to family, and we both got back into school. You know, we were, we were young, we were 21 and 22. We were, I mean, essentially kids. Um, but we made it work.

You know, we both were working 50 hours a week. We were both in school full-time and. We did it and as he started to move up in his career, I got pregnant with my son. We [00:17:00] decided to buy our first house. Um, and I dropped out of school cuz my pregnancies were very hard, had my son. And that's kind of when we started to run into problems with boundaries.

Um, I guess when we moved back from Hawaii, life was hard. We struggled a lot financially. Um, it wasn't, it wasn't easy for us and we didn't, we got help from my side of the family, but nothing really on his side of the family, which I get like, you know, you're not gonna help us. You're not gonna help us. It is what it's, um, but no one really cared to be a part of our life.

Until I got pregnant with my son, um, on that side. So that's kind of where I guess like my mama bear mode kicked in and I'm just like, like, that's not okay. You can't just ignore us when we're going through struggles and now we're going through it. Now. This happened time in our life and we're having our first child, and all [00:18:00] of a sudden you wanna be a part of our life.

Um, so that is kind of where that toxic family dynamic kicks in. And it was, it was hard. You know, I'm now a new mom. I'm only like 23 years old. I'm trying to navigate, you know, being a mom, postpartum, depression, you know, all this stuff on top of this really toxic system. And I won't go into too much detail about, you know, everything that happened.

But my husband and I came to an agreement that. For now, it's probably best to just go no contact and, um, focus on our family, our son, our lives. And so that, that's what we did. And, um, so we've been no contact for a few years now. I, you know, now have my daughter too, and we're close to my side of the family.

I actually, I live down the street from them, which is amazing. Um, but yeah, [00:19:00] so that's kind of what I talk about. I don't think I've ever openly said, you know, it's in-law issues, but there you go. 

Hamza Ali: Yes, I do feel like that is very important. I mean, look, they're gonna learn the American side, the American culture.

Either way they're born, you know, and they're gonna grow up here in the us. It's important to teach them your part of the culture as well. Yeah. And 

Sana Wagner: you know, culture is, it's a really big deal for me because my kids are mixed and we, you know, the town I live in, the community, it's expanding. I just, I feel like I have a bad taste in my mouth from growing up here.

So I don't really associate with, um, too many of those people. But because my family is, you know, right up the street, I'm able to teach my kids about like my, my culture and, uh, you know, holidays and customs and, you know, everything. So, I, you know, I am raising them to be bilingual. My son, daughter can kind of understand, ou can kind of speak it a little bit.

Um, it's, it's really important to me and I'm very lucky to have that. Yeah. 

Hamza Ali: Could we touch on that a [00:20:00] little more? I mean, you obviously said you're teaching them the language and the culture, but do you think they're gonna have a, like traditional Pakistani upbringing here in the us? So, the reason I bring it up is because, you know, I'm Middle Eastern, but I'm married also sort of outside of my culture now.

My wife is Middle Eastern, she's Lebanese, I'm Yemenese. So we're a little far apart. And in the world of Arabia and the Middle East, th those are two completely different cultures. And my kids are older now, and I can definitely tell you that they lean more towards the Lebanese culture than they would do towards my culture.

And it's obviously because they spend more time with their mother. And the mother is always more nurturing, I guess, than a father would be. We do spend, you know, our quality time together, but just because they spend most of their time with their mom, they're taking that part of the culture a little more.

Would you say that's something similar in your situation? 

Sana Wagner: No, I definitely agree and, you know, I'm a stay-at-home mom. I mean, minus working sometimes, but they are, you know, around me and my family. They see my mom and sister every single day. [00:21:00] Every day. Um, so they are more around me and they do, you know, they all gonna learn a lot of the culture, but their dad's side is, you know, they're, they're white, they're Caucasian, and they're living in America.

So it's like they're gonna learn that culture in school anyways. Um, I don't, I don't know how it's gonna play out as they get older. I know that we've actually talked about moving out to Texas because there is more diversity out there. Um, and I feel like that would definitely help. It's not something that I had growing up.

My schools, my neighborhood, it was all very Caucasian growing up, and I always felt kind of like a, like an outsider. Um, so I mean, if I can get closer to like more Muslims, more like Thises, I, that would be ideal. I would love to teach them more about my culture. Um, I would never, you know, I'm not. Going to move to Pakistan to like fully immerse them.

But yeah, community is important I feel like. [00:22:00] 

Hamza Ali: Yeah, so word from word from the wise, from someone who's on the other end of that. So obviously I moved to a place called Sugarland, Texas, which if you guys don't know, is a melting pot of diversity. So basically in your case, it's like a Pakistan outside of Pakistan, right?

Everybody here is from a different part of the world. There's a lot of immigrants that come in, move here. And the cool part about this is that for example, My son went to school fasted on his own first time, and also started praying on his own first time, just because that's what all the other kids are doing here.

Now let's talk about something we all face as immigrants, specifically Middle Eastern, Pakistanis, dc and that is pushback. Did you get any pushback starting your content, starting your journey? Yeah, I 

Sana Wagner: mean, you know, every now and then I'll post something where I'm like, I know there's so many people that are going to disagree with that, but there's also gonna be people that agree with it.

So, you know, let's light it on fire. Let's post it. Let's enjoy. Thanks for getting my views up. Um, but yeah, it's, you know, people, [00:23:00] there's some online bullies there. I'm where I'm just like, like, you really have the time to sit there and make a racist comment on every single one of my videos. You're telling me to go back to my country when I was born here.

Right? Like why? 

Hamza Ali: Why? Excellent to hear that you had the support from your family. I know for a fact that being from Middle Eastern background or deci background, things can get challenging. Parents tend to come intervene, sort of. And tend to come in the way sometimes. So the fact that you have such supportive parents is just such a fresh breath of air.

Now, one thing my audience loves to hear with almost every speaker that I bring on is their social media strategy, right? Or their social media presence. So why bring your entire life onto social media? What message are you trying to spend? What are you trying to tell people? 

Sana Wagner: TikTok is always, always, always my favorite.

You know, the content's very organic. Um, I have recently started doing really well on Instagram. After, you know, a year and a half of trying, I finally had my first viral post, which is [00:24:00] amazing. So I'm seeing some traffic there. Um, I was actually just filming my, my intro to YouTube. I guess I'll try YouTube as well now to have some more in-depth conversations.

Um, but yeah, I feel like the audience is very different on each platform. It's interesting. Instagram, I'm finding there's a lot more. They're, they're haters up there. TikTok, I found like a lot more like, you know, this is so relatable and oh, thank you so much on Instagram. It's like, you're stupid, you're dumb.

You don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, well, thanks. Next seven years, man, I haven't even thought about that. I, you know, I would like to go back to school and get my master's in psychology. Um, I'm in a season of life where my kids are too little. Life is too busy for me to start grad school. Um, but I'd like to get my psychology degree.

I initially, I wanted to become a therapist. Uh, mental health and connecting with people and helping people is [00:25:00] very important to me. Um, may, I don't know, maybe I'll end up becoming a therapist and, you know, I'll do that whole thing. That would be amazing. I would love to continue to spread. Love spread my message, spread support on social media as long as I can, um, you know, and just grow with my community, see what they need from me, and see if I'm able to deliver that.

I, you know, I feel like this is definitely my first time sharing my full story. I've, I've shared like tidbits here and there, but I've never gone out and actually shared everything. So this, this was nice. It was very therapeutic. 

Hamza Ali: What are your thoughts on the TikTok band? I know that a lot of creators, especially some of them, what are your thoughts on the TikTok band?

I know a lot of creators personally, that are moving or creating backup accounts on other platforms because they're worried about TikTok and they're worried that it's gonna go away. I, you know, 

Sana Wagner: if it happens, it happens. They're gonna le receive a lot of [00:26:00] pushback if they were to ban something like TikTok.

You know, TikTok isn't just funny videos. It's not just dancing videos. There's a lot of knowledge to be shared on there. I've learned. So much from TikTok. Um, things that, you know, they don't, they don't share on the news. I sometimes will learn from TikTok, so they'll, they'll receive a lot of pushback if the band were to happen, but I also feel like someone would immediately create something similar and people would just jump on that.

Um, I've heard of like, you know, lemonade and all that. We'll see, you know, if, if people are really jumping on there, I can jump on there too. Um, but if something happens to TikTok, I am on Instagram and YouTube now. 

Hamza Ali: Now, one thing our audience wants to know, and I tend to ask this to every guest that I have on the podcast, is, what are the next seven years in your life gonna look 

Sana Wagner: like next seven years?

Oh man, I haven't even thought about that. I, you know, I would like to go back to school and get [00:27:00] my master's in psychology. Um, I'm in a season of life where my kids are too little. Life is too busy for me to start grad school. Um, but I'd like to get my psychology degree. I initially, I wanted to become a therapist.

Uh, mental health and connecting with people and helping people is very important to me. Um, I may, I don't know, maybe I'll end up becoming a therapist and you know, I'll do that whole thing. That would be amazing. I would love to continue to spread love, spread my message, spread support on social media as long as I can.

Um, that's, you know, and just grow with my community, see what they need from me and see if I'm able to deliver that. 

Hamza Ali: That's awesome. It seems like, uh, we're gonna need you back in season two to get an update on where you are and how much of that you've accomplished. Yeah. 

Sana Wagner: I, you know, I feel like this is definitely my first time sharing my full story.

I've, I've shared like tidbits here and there, but I've never gone out and [00:28:00] actually shared everything. So this, this was nice. It was very therapeutic. 

Hamza Ali: I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast, and I really appreciate this. Son, once again, thank you very much for being on the Immigrant Unfiltered Podcast, and I think we really got a chance to explore who you are on the other side of social media.

Sana Wagner: Thank you so much for this opportunity. I, I truly appreciate it. I'm excited.