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Jennie’s article about planning your Alaska National Parks trip
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Music credits: Largo Montebello, by Domenico Mannelli, CC.
Welcome to the Alaska uncovered podcast with me your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming. I bring you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska travel, and life in Alaska. My occasional co host and full time my husband, Jay and I are committed to keeping the Alaska uncovered podcast ad free. To do that we need your help. If you are enjoying this podcast, we invite you to contribute to our tip jar, which is the first link in the show notes. You don't need any accounts or anything like that you can just do a one time tip. Really easy. We are so grateful for our listeners. And we couldn't do this without you. Thank you so much, and enjoy the show. Hi, everyone. Jennie here again, this episode is mostly a rewind of one of the earliest episodes of the podcast that Jay and I did during National Parks week in 2023, just a year ago, at that point, the podcast with just six weeks old. So it was one of the very earliest episodes. And Jay and I wanted to bring this up to the front again, because it is national parks week. Again, National Parks are a place people are really excited about going in Alaska, for very good reason. And the information in this episode is still excellent, and really our best advice, so we wanted to share it again this year. It includes Jay sharing a bit about his experience growing up in the National Park Service, and also working as an archaeologist in Gates of the Arctic National Park in Alaska. We also talk about the challenges with some of the more remote Alaska National Parks, and all kinds of different details about how to visit each one of them along with our own personal experiences there. Before we go to that, I wanted to quickly recap most of the episodes of the podcast that are about national parks. So if you've missed any, you can go back and catch them. So this is in chronological order, starting from the beginning of the podcast in March 2023 Up until now. So the first one March 8 2023 That was episode four. It is about visiting Katmai National Park with cat my park ranger Cara. So that is a really fun episode all about the beers all about the other cool things to see in cat line. March 22, which was episode six is this is March 22 2023. So way back in the feed, Glacier Bay National Park with Ranger Matt, another super fun episode may 17 2023, episode 14. That is with our friends Tom and Donna habecker, who lived in Denali for many years while Tom was working as a ranger and Donna and I went to grad school together during that time and Fairbanks and they share all about the park but also about what it's like to live and raise a family in a remote National Park. So that's a fun one. July 12 2023 Episode 2020 Episode 22 is about climbing Denali the mountain with our friend Ryan, who has submitted Denali and talks all about that experience and the logistics, pretty cool episode. And then January 17 2024. That's episode 47. That one is all about how to plan a trip to Denali National Park. If you're traveling on your own and not with a tour group or on a cruise tour, that can be a little bit challenging and different from what people expect. So that's what that episode is about. And finally, February 21 2024 Episode 54 is about flight seen over Denali National Park in landing on the reef glacier scene Denali from the air and that was with Cole Chambers from Ketu aviation. One more I just wanted to let you know a very soon on May 15. We will have an episode about Wrangell St. Elias National Park and the town of McCarthy with Avery who is a guide there and grew up in McCarthy so that is going to be a super fun episode. And I can't wait to share it with you. So with that Happy National Parks week, and enjoy the episode. In today's episode, Jay and I are talking all about the national parks in Alaska. Jay and I actually met in an Alaska National Park, Klondike Gold Rush National Historic Park, which is in Skagway, which basically is the town of Skagway. And Jay has also worked in gates, the Arctic National Park as an archaeologist for three seasons. He also grew up in Yellowstone. So he is a child of the National Park Service as well. Today, we're going to share about Alaska parks in general, some tips about visiting and about some of our personal favorite spots. So to start us off, Jay, can you share a little bit about your personal history with the National Park Service and the parks in Alaska that you've been to?
R. Jay F:Oh, I just realized this is my first experience as a guest on this show. How fun.
Jennie Flaming:It is fun. Yeah.
R. Jay F:I actually feel a little bit more on on. Like, I have to perform a little better than when I'm just the occasional co host. So I want to, I want to first say that, yes, I grew up in the National Park Service. And in the National Park Service, I am what is called a park brat, which is a term for any child who was raised in the Park Service, in particular then went on to work in the Park Service themselves. And it's a it's a kind of a term of endearment. But you know, it has a little bit of a cutting edge to it do. But it's a small fraternity of us out there. But yeah, so when I was in elementary school, my folks moved into Yellowstone Park. And my dad was a truck driver and worked on the road crew and plowed snow worked in maintenance in Yellowstone. And so I did live in the interior of Yellowstone and Grand village. And we had to leave for the winters. Because there's no school there. There's only one other child under 18 in the whole area. So we would go out into Wyoming and I would go to school. And then when I was in high school, my dad moved. He eventually got a job in Mammoth that was year round, which is the north part of the park and I graduated from high school up there. And I went up to Alaska. And eventually after graduate school, I'd worked in the cruise industry and a bunch of other stuff. I ended up becoming an archaeologist and working in the national parks up there. And then when we moved to Seattle, I then did a stint working for the regional office here in the Pacific West and worked in a bunch of parks out here. We should also add that when I was in high school, I did work in the visitor center in Yellowstone too. So I don't work for the park service now. But it has actually been about, I don't know at least 10 years of my life that I work directly for the park service.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, that's a long time. That's a lot of history.
R. Jay F:It is I don't even know how many years it's been because I've worked so many stints in one of the things about a park service life is that getting a permanent full time job is quite challenging. It's a lot of barriers to getting hired for that. But a lot of folks in the park service the majority of park employees work out their careers in lots of seasonal and temporary appointments. And so it becomes kind of a it's a flurry of leaves blowing by you. And you can be like, wait, wait, when when where was I know I worked in that part. When was that? What was my job there? What? And so yeah, the majority of park employees are seasonals. And that was that was me as well until I work here in the region. So how many parks have we visited together in Alaska? Because you've been to some I haven't. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:so. Okay, so I visited you when you were working in gates. So we've both been there. And we met in Skagway. So we both been there to Klondike Gold Rush. Park.
R. Jay F:We shared the coldest night of camping and my wife and Denali. Yes, real
Jennie Flaming:chilly. It was in April. It was kind of awesome. But also we had to go home at like five in the morning because it's so cold. I totally remember Yeah, so we've been to Denali together quite a few times.
R. Jay F:Been to wrangle seen a lot. Yeah, we also managed to ride along on a friend who won the lottery to drive up the road in your personal vehicle at the end of the year. Once that was really fun. That
Jennie Flaming:was really fun.
R. Jay F:And we've been to Wrangell St. Elias together.
Jennie Flaming:Yes. And we've been to Kenai Fjords together. Yes. And Sitka National Historical Park.
R. Jay F:You have been to Glacier Bay. I never have.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah. You have Glacier Bay is glacier base. My favorite.
R. Jay F:Is you're such a fan girl.
Jennie Flaming:I know. I know. I'm
R. Jay F:really good. I'm not a very good Park brat in that I've never been to several of the of the quintessential no national parks I've never been to but yeah, the cat my
Jennie Flaming:teeth. Yes. And I've been to Kanye. I think neither of us have been to Kobuk Valley, and neither of us have been inside like clerk? No. But I believe we've been to all the others plus many other national park units that don't necessarily have that National Park designation, which you're going to talk about in a few minutes. But I think that's all of them. Yeah. Yeah. So J speaking of that, can you tell us a little bit well, actually, before we get into that, I should mention that we have several other episodes of the Alaska uncovered podcast that are about specific national parks in Alaska. And today, we're really talking. We will talk about some specifics, but we are talking about Alaska National Parks in general, which covers a lot of territory. But just to give you a sense, if you want to know more about Alaska National Parks, and you're new to the podcast, in episode three, one of the topics we talked about in that episode was Denali and specifically visiting Denali in 2023. There are some changes in Denali because of the partial road closures so that we talked about that in Episode Four was about Katmai and all about bears, but also more than bears. All the other things that are cool about Katmai and episode six, we talked about Glacier Bay. And Episode 10, which was just last week was about Skagway and we talked about the National Historical Park in Skagway. And then we also have an episode coming in a couple of weeks in three weeks. Actually, that will be all about Denali. Um, and then there are some other episodes coming that we have planned about parks. So those are that's just a little bit of an overview of what we've done and covered so far. So, Jay, can you tell us a little bit about kind of public land in Alaska in general? Like, why is there so much federal land? In Alaska? What places are the parks in Alaska? What what is different about it? Maybe from the lower 48?
R. Jay F:Yeah, so I mean, one of the things that I actually did I miss about living in Alaska living down in the lower 48 now is that two thirds of Alaska is managed by the federal government and of the remaining 1/3, a big chunk of it is public land, owned by the state. So there's a lot of open spaces to kind of have your, you know, a lot of freedom to explore and, and stuff like that, where, you know, the Labour Party is mostly privately owned. But it's kind of interesting, you know, Alaska. First of all, I should just say, I'm not an expert on this topic. And so whatever I say, this is for your entertainment value only. Yes, I
Jennie Flaming:know, you're not specifically speaking as a representative of the Park Service or anything like that. Just hearing your perspective. Yeah.
R. Jay F:I no longer work with the Park Service. But, you know, it's funny. I, I know a little bit, but more probably mostly just enough to get myself in trouble with this. But this is what I know of. Alaska has a couple of older national parks, Glacier Bay and Denali, which were, you know, their 100 year old parks and from the 1920s, but most of the Alaska National park units were actually formed by a law passed in 1980 called a nilka. The Alaska National Interest Land Claims Settlement Act, who I think so anyways, Anelka. And a little bit by the 1971 law angkasa, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, you know, Alaska was purchased from the Russian government, and a lot of its public land was not settled as to who owned it, you know, there were Your tribal, indigenous claims on the land, there were a few private owners, but most of the land was was fairly unsettled and fairly inhospitable. So there wasn't a lot of really well established ownership outside of some of the gold fields. And so the legal nature of all that was still up in the air when people wanted to develop the petroleum resources on the North Slope. And so that was a big barrier to that. And in order to allow the oil pipeline to be built, and that to happen, those two laws were critical to settle who owned what pieces of land. And there's a lot of controversy and a lot of history in those two acts. You could spend your whole life setting those definitely, and still have room. So but a lot of national park units were set up in that period of time. So Alaska also has some non National Park, public lands, there's a big a two big national forest, that's the Tongass and that you Yeah. And there's a bunch of wildlife refuges. Those are. So national forests are managed by the National Forest Service, which is part of the Department of Agriculture. And then the Department of Interior includes the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and they have some national wildlife refuges. But the majority are managed by the Park Service. And I want to bring up here a really common misconception that I see on the internet in general. Jenny, you I feel like we've you've seen a lot of these articles to where someone lists like, what I don't even remember how many are named National Parks in Alaska or in the list. There's eight national parks. Yeah, yeah. So So here's the thing is having worked and lived in the National Park Service almost my whole career. There are, there's no real distinction between what is and isn't a national park within the National Park Service Unit. And that includes a lot of things that aren't named National Park. So I, I want to just take a moment to nerd out on public land types. For a second, I think it is kind of irrelevant. And yeah, I hear folks who have like a bucket list, and they have like, I'm gonna visit all the national parks. And then when I hear them, listen, they're missing things that I think are really important. I realized it's because the name doesn't include National Park. I think of it like this, if someone was telling you the best peaks to climb in the country. And then you said, Oh, but what about Denali? Or what about Mount Rainier, like, well, those aren't peaks, those are mounts, I'm talking about Pikes Peak, you know, like, those are just naming differences. And thoroughly, they'll they'll have something to do with the history of that mountain. And they might even tell you a little something about it. But they don't necessarily imply some sort of hierarchy, or that they're even, you know, they're all things we call mountains. So in in Alaska in particular, this gets a little complicated, but there are national historic areas, national monuments, national parks National Park and preserves national preserves, but not National Park. So there's just a quick rattle off a list are the illusions national historic area, janiak chick National Monument, the leg neck and wild river cruise and certain National Monument Denali National Park gates the Arctic National Park and Preserve Glacier Bay National Park. Katmai National Park Kenai Fjords is a national park Klondike is a National Historic Park, Coburg valleys and National Park. Lake Clark is a national park and then there is no attack National Preserve sic National Historic Park wrangle and Yukon Charley National Preserve the Park Service would consider all of those national parks, they would call them all parks. Right? They wouldn't necessarily in the end, the thing about national parks is each one that's a is created by its own act of Congress, except for national monuments, which I'll talk about in a second but and those will govern a lot of the rules what is being what has been called out as the exceptional thing about this area. What are we prioritizing, but they're all managed under the larger rubric the National Park Service to preserve unimpeded did for the the benefit enjoyment of the people, you know these areas? Yeah. So I don't I don't want people to miss and say like, I want to go to these eight national parks because those will be the best thing. And the other things, other types of parks. A lot of times, it just means that they came later. So the original national parks are, you know, 100 years ago, when the National Park Service was new, they were all just called National Parks pretty much as time went on, they got more creative with naming. So calling something a national, you know, historic landscape or calling something a National Seashore, that kind of thing was really a later development. The only distinction I'll make is that national monuments are quite different. They are created by act of the President, they're the the Antiquities Act 1906 gives the the president the right to with the stroke of a pen create a national monument, and also means that they're a little more tenuous, because another president could take them away. So they're not it written into law, the way that all the other park units are. Yeah, sometimes national monuments can also be administered by another unit like National Mount St. Helens, is a national monument after the volcano, but it was his national forest before. So it's run by the National Forest Service, but almost all the national monuments are managed by the National Parks. Yeah, I know, that's a lot about my titles. But I just don't want people to think that, you know, the, there's only these eighth grade places and the rest are second tiers. There. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:I'm really glad you talked about that, Jay. So if if I were to from someone who doesn't have the same deep knowledge about those structures that you do, were to try to summarize that or you give an example of it? Would it be like seeing, for example, gates to the Arctic National Park, which is does have that National Parks designation. And as a place we've both been to you comparing that to something like Yukon, Charlie Rivers National Preserve, which is another place we've been that's very remote and hard to get to. But it isn't any less interesting or unique, really, then Gates of the Arctic, and it's in a similar? I mean, it's very different, but also sort of in a similar part of interior kind of this our sub Arctic Arctic area with that, is that kind of getting at what you're saying,
R. Jay F:maybe the best example might be co buck and no attacks a co bug Valina. Yeah. National Preserve, are very close to each other. The no attack rivers there in the west part of the Brooks Range, really remote places. I mean, really remote, no matter how bad country you think you've ever been. This is this is more so. Yeah. But to be honest, there isn't really any, you know, Kobach is a national park. No attack is a preserve. They're not that different. Right. It's just a it's just a naming convention and politics and stuff. So anyway, I know that's a small thing, but it always it always rankles me a little bit when I see that I'm like, I feel like the some of the non named parks are getting disrespected.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. What about no attack? No attack is so cool.
R. Jay F:And you know, some of these, like wild rivers and stuff, too, are really quite amazing. So yeah, I think that's that's probably enough detail about national parks in their names. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:that's good, though. Thank you. I will just add, before we move on, I'm thinking especially about Skagway and Sitka that have national historic parks that we both been to in Alaska. And and those are some of the coolest things that some of the most wonderful places I've been to in Alaska, especially from, like a history kind of standpoint. I mean, they're just they're both really different from each other. And super interesting. So definitely if you're going to Sitka or Skyway don't don't miss those places that really cool. Yeah. Oh, that also reminds me that when I was mentioning the previous episodes of the podcast, where we talked about parks in episode nine mine, which was just a couple of weeks ago, in our episode with Scotland Myrin. He talked quite a bit about Wrangell St. Elias in that episode, even though that's not the title of the episode, so I wanted to make sure to mention that also. Okay, so, Jay, thinking about Alaska's national parks, I was thinking it'd be fun for us to talk a little bit about some of the things that make them really wonderful places to visit in Alaska. And of course, they're very different. Some of them are easier to get to us, some of them are harder to get to. But what would you say in general, are some of the benefits of visiting a national park in Alaska?
R. Jay F:Well, I'm biased, I'm gonna say the National Park Service. Yeah. And the reason I'm gonna say that is not just to butter up my former co workers, it's because I think that the National Park Service, Alaska, its public lands, and Alaska land in general, it's pretty difficult to visit, and the Park Service has done a really good job of providing some things that visitors really need without providing some that they don't. National Park Service doesn't feel it's necessary to provide fudge shops.
Jennie Flaming:Really, I feel like NPS Fudd could be a really big hit.
R. Jay F:I buy it. I'm not gonna Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of the things that are that appear in visitor areas that aren't necessarily required are not necessary. But the Park Service has made sure that there are good maps, relatively good maps of all the national parks and information is available online@nps.gov And the really excellent new NPS app. Yeah, I feel like that makes a big difference. And the Park Service has a mission about getting that information out there. So I think that's really an end, they're going to provide structured hiking. What about you, what do you think?
Jennie Flaming:Well, I definitely agree with what you said about the resources and infrastructure of the Park Service, around giving, you know, really excellent information and being having that be their mission. Um, I would say that, in addition to that, you sort of mentioned like having hiking trails. And in, there are some really amazing hikes in Alaska's national parks there, there's lots of space where there aren't hiking trails, but where there are, those are some really wonderful trails and hiking is free. So Alaska can be an expensive destination, and going for a hike in a national park doesn't cost anything. And that is pretty cool. Some Alaska parks charge an entrance fee, but many of them do not, actually. So even that barrier is not there for many parks. And I think the other thing is, if you are going to camp on your trip to Alaska, Alaska's national parks have some of the best tent camping situations in Alaska, if you're in an RV, there are other places that are also pretty amazing. But when I think about the best places to pitch a tent in Alaska, that I've personally experienced, they're nearly all in national parks. So those are, those are some of the other things that come come to mind. Yeah,
R. Jay F:I will say that the camping in national parks tends to be a bargain. Always. Yep. usually cheaper than state parks nearby. Yes. You know, I feel like that's a if you have an option to tent camp in the National Park, do it. Yes.
Jennie Flaming:So like, for example, in Katmai, the Lodge which you have to win a lottery to get into two years in advance is $900 a night. And the campground is $12. Just as an example of that. And also in Glacier Bay and wrinkles. St. Elias campaign is free. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's
R. Jay F:not common, actually.
Unknown:No, it's not.
R. Jay F:I will say to you that they're having worked in fi collections in national parks. I know that a lot of folks are frustrated paying an admissions fee or to come through the gate or for some of the fees, which is, again, as Jennie said a lot of national parks don't charge any fee whatsoever. They actually have to get permission from Congress to do so. Most that money does not go to the National Park Service. Actually, it goes into the general fund of the of the US government. And the fee when you do pay one doesn't even come close to paying for the cost of most people's visit. So it really it is an amazing bargain. And I know that it still sucks to have to fork over some money at the gate, but you know, yeah. So,
Jennie Flaming:yes. So let's talk about challenges a little bit. What are some of the biggest challenges from your perspective about visiting Alaska as parks?
R. Jay F:There are a lot, actually, yeah. You vary a tremendous amount based on the park itself. And this is one of the things that like folks who are doing bucket lists, visits, for example, they're like, I'm gonna visit all the name national parks and you want to get a co buck. Like, oh, I only have two left. You could spend a majority of your summer getting to some of the Alaskan national parks just basically, you know, getting there. So getting there is not always easy. Some of them it's very easy actually. Denali is very easy to get to you can drive there on the on the road system, you can take a train there, take a bus into the park. That's not too bad. The Yukon Charlie, not so easy. You can take a boat up the river from right, you go I guess I'm trying to think of even or most likely you would fly in on a floodplain. Same with Gates of the Arctic, same with no attack Kobach really, those are air dependent. Hiking to some of those parks, from the nearest place you can get on commercial air service, for example, would take your whole whole season or more like it is not possible to do. So that's a challenge. Yeah, those are a challenge that I don't want to underestimate. Some of the parks have a very short season where the snow is free and the the Brooks Range northern Alaska parks can have a six or eight week snow free season. So that part of the season will also be when the mosquitoes have to make their entire living and the mosquitoes will be dense. Yeah. Like if you think you know mosquitoes you do not I working up there remember wiping over and over wiping my head net with my gloved hands to be able to see my notebook to take notes. Yeah, no, there i
Jennie Flaming:i will say a day that when I spent that week with you guys on your project in Gates, that that forever changed my perspective on bugs and what are bad bugs? Hey so much. No,
R. Jay F:I've worked in I've worked in the Everglades and I'll tell you that it's nothing.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, it was it was intense
R. Jay F:not to be there. There are serious there are serious barrier and they're completely manageable. And you can make in most parks in Alaska, you can make a huge difference based on when you visit if you are not someone and they're not that bad everywhere by any means. But they're they can be they can be a real a real issue anywhere in Alaska. I mean, we had one of the weirdest nights of mosquitoes with a friend of ours at a campground near anchorage Just out of nowhere. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:that was also really bizarre. Yeah. So
R. Jay F:you know, it can it can happen anywhere and and an early freeze can make a glorious clearance of this guy's. And so you know, late season can be good. But you know, you're not going to want to try to visit some of these more remote parks during the late season for the mosquitoes because the door can close weather wise on you and you could be shut out. So you know you're playing. Yeah, yeah. And you're way more of an expert than I am on the travel component. I mean, what do you think about the lodging expense? Yeah. What do you what do you think? Do you have anything you want to add about that?
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, I definitely agree with everything that you said. I think despite what I said before about being able to find three or very inexpensive camping in Alaska National Parks. Lodging that is not camping is real expensive in places like Denali and Seward, which is near Kenai Fjords, and king salmon, which is near Katmai. So that is, I think, a challenge, I think it's important for people to be prepared for that for lodging to be very expensive, especially for what it is. Um, so that's one thing. And I think, you know, earlier you were talking about how the National Park name is really just a naming convention. And from the perspective of an insider in the Park Service, that isn't necessarily different from a wild river or a National Preserve. But you know, that I hope people play on their trips to Alaska, and I've had several clients who were definitely wanting to go to the eight parks with the National Park designation, to complete the list of 63. And I know there are way more but you know, from, from my clients perspective, and I think the biggest challenge, especially for folks trying to go to a lot of remote parks in one trip, is it, it really makes the trip extremely complicated and very dependent on weather. So, again, if that's something that you want to do as a traveler, just really think about giving yourself as much time as possible, and lots of extra time in between parks to allow for things like weather delays, right.
R. Jay F:And I think what I heard you saying to you about lodging is that if you're going to be a if you want to use lodging like hotels, lodges, etc, you should make that plan far in advance. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:yes, I would say for national parks, except for Glacier Bay, you really need to be planning your trip a year ahead of time. Denali, like, like, for example, where we are recording this in April of 2023. And there are some dates where there is still lodging available in Denali, especially if you drive there, as opposed to taking the train because you can stay a little further away from the park. If you do that. Um, but there are lots of days that are that are completely booked up, or very close to that. So um, yeah, I think planning and for these remote parks, you really need to plan a year in advance, or at least six to nine months, kind of the more remote The earlier you need to plan. I think as what I would say, and after the break, we'll get back we'll get into kind of which parts are the most remote and, and that kind of thing. But I think that's what I would say about the the challenges with planning.
R. Jay F:I just want to take a moment to say that I applaud anyone who has a goal of visiting all the national parks. I just want to add on that for extra credit. You should think about including as many of the other 340. Yes, are not named National Park in the National Park System. Yes, there's over 400 units. And some of them are absolutely mind blowing. And don't rule those out. Just because of their name. I totally agree with that. 63 named National Parks is a really great life goal.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, I agree. I think it's really cool. And I sometimes think I would like to take it on to you. But I haven't given it to that yet. All right, we're gonna take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the different types of parks based on how remote they are in Alaska, and talk about some of our personal favorites. So we'll be back soon. Hi, everyone, Jennie here. I hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you're listening in real time in April 2024, and you're planning to travel to Alaska this summer. It's not too late. Let me help you make that dream trip come true. Through one of my planning sessions, or even planning the whole thing for you. If you'd like more help. Follow the link in the show notes that's just below the tip jar to book a session with me want to do it on your own. That's also awesome. Take my free four question quiz to get an itinerary suggestion based on your travel style and your personal dreams for your trip. The link to that is in the show notes too. All right, back to the show. And we're back and in today's episode to honor national parks week. Jay and I are sharing a bit about the Alaska National Parks Which is something that we both have quite a bit of experience with, in different ways.
R. Jay F:So, Jenny, I know you have helped coach a lot of people with visiting Alaska National Parks in particular folks who are looking for the named National Parks. Yep. I have heard you discuss this as the there being three categories broadly of Alaska National Parks. Can you share those with our listeners?
Jennie Flaming:Sure, yes. So for this section, we're just talking about those eight parks with the named designation of National Park, even though the others, as Jay said earlier in the episode are really important to consider. But if we did this for every single one of those, that would be a little overwhelming and make this podcast way too long. So yeah, so I am going to keep it to that for the most part, although I may mention some of the others when it fits in. So yeah, Jay, I kind of put them in three buckets, if you will. One is the ones that are accessible by road and have hotels and or services of some kind. The second is ones that are hard to get to you, but do have some kind of services. And then the third is what I call the really remote parks, the ones with no services of any kind, and off the road system that you'd be getting to in a small plane. So yeah, I think I'll just share a few details about each of those buckets and which parks go in those buckets. For the first one, which is the ones accessible by road and have hotels and services. That would be three Denali, Kenai Fjords and Wrangell St. Elias Wrangell. St. Elias has a little bit of a question mark if it fits in that bucket, because while you can get there by road, most rental car companies will not allow you to drive on that road because it's very remote and gravel. I will tell you that it's not a particularly scary road to drive. It's just remote and gravel, so it's really slow. Um, so for those three parks, if it's a little more straightforward, you can drive there, Denali and Kenai Fjords you can also take the Alaska railroad to all three of those have lodges or hotels that are in the basic area. Um, and they have things like restaurants, and that sort of thing. Wrangell St. Elias doesn't have a lot of restaurants, but it does have a couple. It doesn't really have a store, but it has hotels, restaurants, there is no cell service. They're on Kenai Fjords in Denali, as far as whether or not their cell service kind of depends on exactly where you are in the park. So that's kind of a summary of the first bucket. The second bucket is the ones that are hard to get to but still have some services. So I put three parks in that category as well and that would be Glacier Bay Katmai and sort of Lake clerk. Um, and in those three, you're going to be taking a plane or boat to get there. Glacier Bay is a little funky because 95% of people visit Glacier Bay on cruise ships. But if you go on your own, you'll still be getting there by boat or small plane. These are ones if you're going to Glacier Bay on a cruise cruises are one of those things that you can plan. Later, there's lots of availability for cruises that go to Glacier Bay now in April for the summer 2020 free. There are some nights available at the lodge so that one you don't have to plan quite as far ahead. Pat my you have to plan far ahead. The campground opens for reservations in early January and books up for the whole summer within five minutes. So you definitely want to prepare ahead for that there's a lottery two years ahead of time for the lodge for day trips from Anchorage into Katmai. That's also a good one to plan at least by the fall for that coming that coming summer. In late Clarke has plane service that goes in their small plane service. There are some lodges you can stay at that one you really need to plan about a year ahead of time. In some cases you might be able to find dates later but you want to book that one As soon as possible to because you're going to be looking at remote lodges for Lake Clark. And then finally, you know, as you and I know, Gates of the Arctic and Kobuk Valley, they're very, very remote. The only way really to get in there is in a small charter plane, there is no scheduled small plane service into those parks, there are no trails, there are no services. So if you want to go to either of those parks, you need to plan really far ahead. And like a year, and there's two ways to do it, you can either do a fly in trip where you can land and walk around, or you can do a backpacking or rafting trip, with a guide. And those are kind of really the only practical ways to get to those parks. So that would be kind of my summary about the different buckets and how to get there.
R. Jay F:I think that's really helpful. And to be honest, it applies to the to the other national park units as well, they all would fit into one of those buckets. Yeah. Non named national parks would be yes. Into the more remote ones and less than kind of a random question for you. If someone's trying to chain together a lot of national park visits, how many can they really? I mean, how many could they realistically get in a single visit? Do you think? Well,
Jennie Flaming:it's a great question, because I've had clients who've done all of them in one trip to Alaska. Yeah. Um, it's all about time, and money. So if you have, I would say, if you want to go to all of these parks, in one trip to Alaska, you're looking at a minimum of a one month trip. In a month, even, that's going to be a lot of running around. It's going to be a lot of small planes, and hiking and cars and boats, and just all kinds of things. But it can be done if you're really determined. Personally, I think it's better, especially if you live on the West Coast. And it's easy, easier for you to get to Alaska, meaning the flights are shorter and less expensive. Then I think it's really nice to break it up into at least two and ideally three trips. That's kind of my personal opinion. Gates and Kobach Valley work well. Together. There is an operator in Kotzebue that does a combo flightseeing trip. It's called Golden Eagle Outfitters and they do a flightseeing trip where you can land in both parks. I have had clients who've done that. And it's a great trip you have to get to Kotzebue but you can get there on Alaska Airlines. You can count my in Lake clerk are also ones that go well together because you can there's different ways to do it. But you can fly between them go to both of those wrinkles. St. Elias and Denali go really well together because they're in Kenai Fjords because they're, the distances are long, but they are all driving parks. And you could make a plan, you know, far enough ahead that you could rent from a small local company that lets you rent a car you can take to wrinkle St. Elias, Glacier Bay, kind of I think that really needs ideally to be its own trip. either on your own or on a cruise. So I guess in in my ideal world, for someone who wanted to do that, it would be four trips, but you can definitely do it in one if you have the patience for that much running around and the budget and time to support it.
R. Jay F:Yeah, I mean, that sounds even one month sounds really hectic to me.
Jennie Flaming:Oh, yeah. It's crazy. But it's not crazy. I mean, it's just why it's just a lot of traveling. So if you're up for that, it's great. It's a great adventure, that's for sure.
R. Jay F:Yeah, that'd be that'd be maybe the whole summer would be a great thing to aim for if you wanted to do that. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming:So Jay, can you can you talk a little bit about Park visitation numbers and sort of humans in national parks and, and kind of what your perspective is on that? Yeah,
R. Jay F:I have Unpopular Opinions maybe. But I do think there's no that's not exactly true. But I do want to take a moment to say first that I first of all I am a huge proponent of wild lands of wilderness of protecting plants from development. But sometimes, I hear that being taken in a direction that I think is a little bit disrespectful. And what I'm getting at about that is that all this great wilderness in Alaska has a long, long human history. Really long. Yeah, sites in North America, archaeologically are in Alaska's national parks. There are a number of sites 13 14,000 years old, up there. And you know, the oldest sites in North America are only a little bit older than that. So human history is quite long. And I've seen brochures and stuff that talk about, you know, come walk in a valley where the mountains have no names, and no one's ever walked before. And yeah, that's, that's just not true. There's a deep human history in this place. It just didn't leave condos. And, you know, I just want to throw out that I think it's the idea of wilderness needs to not exclude the fact that humans were there, and that they had an impact. You know, the folks who live there intentionally use fire and their hunting techniques and stuff to make the landscape livable for them. And the landscape like of Gates of the Arctic, for example, or for one is, the humans have been living there since before the current biological regime. So no black spruce have only been there the most dominant tree in northern central Alaska, and they've only been around for about 5000 years, humans have been living in those places. Swan point down in in the terminal Valley is fifth, almost 15,000 years old. You know, we're amazing. Humans have been here three times longer there than the than the black spruce had been there. So yeah, it's, it's, it's really deep. And it's hard sometimes to picture that people have been living on this landscape. So long, I had the opportunity to work on a site near Delta Junction in Alaska. And, you know, we were excavating these fires were, and all these bones. And then suddenly, we started getting into animals that have been extinct in North America. And it just blew my mind. Like, there were people here, camping in this spot that were eating like camel and prehistoric antelope that don't exist on North America and haven't since really since the end of the ice ages. So I think they're just really cool. And I would love for people to include that in their appreciation of the wildland and not as something that human history on a place, like somehow corrupts it, you know, it's, yeah, it's a really beautiful part of it. So that's one thing. Another one is another one of those sets of, of, I want to just take on for a moment, you'll see a lot of things on the internet, where people talking about the most and least visited national parks, in your experience of other people. While you're there may not track with what you see on those. There's a couple of reasons. One, National Park visitation numbers are kind of funny. So a national park, like Yellowstone, for example, has a pretty great number, that people go through the gates, they count them, people leave, they count them. It's very, like other national parks, like gate to the Arctic, have numbers. I don't remember what their visitation numbers say. But they count every person who drives on the whole road to Prudhoe Bay, most of whom never enter the park at all. So they count because they go through a visitor center area at the Yukon River, Olympic National Park, for example, it has also really difficult numbers, if there's a Washington state has a there's a US one on one highway runs through it. And they count the folks who drive that highway as visiting the parks, you don't really know whether they did or not. So it's not quite the same, you know, they're not apples to apples. And so when you see the numbers for a place, like Gates of the Arctic example, they're actually a lot higher than what you would actually experience going there. So if you want and are looking for that really remote, distant thing, don't really pay attention to those numbers. So they don't necessarily mean that much some parks that people are crowded into very small areas. And in every national park in the entire system, you can have solitude, you just need to step away. I would say Denali, we had great conversations with Donna and Tom habecker. Which will be in another episode. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming:Three weeks if they that episode will be live.
R. Jay F:and they really highlighted that if you get off the bus in Denali, you can have one of the most remote experiences you can imagine in your life, all within a very easy, secure way to experience it. And the same with gates. There's nothing like the realization that you are two or three weeks hike from another human being. And but then there's something like Glacier Bay journey. I haven't been there. I know you have. But you know that the main way to visit Glacier Bay is onboard a cruise ship, which is not an
Jennie Flaming:isolated. No. No.
R. Jay F:So the numbers there don't necessarily match up to your experience if you went there and camped, and what was your experience? Camping? As far as
Jennie Flaming:well, there were two other people staying in the campgrounds when I was there. So yeah, there
R. Jay F:but what would you say about cat my, about like, will you it's i My impression is that you would be around a lot of other people all the time, because people are quite limited and where they go.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, Katmai was really different, say, from Glacier Bay, because there were lots of people camping in catheline. I think there's 60 people that can be in the campground a night. Um, and yeah, in Glacier Bay, you know, people are a little more spread out. And there are just so few people, like we talked about in the Glacier Bay episode, who are travelling, they're not on a cruise ship. Um, you know, it's really just the other people staying at the lodge and in the campground that you see, kept my is really busy with day trip visitors. Um, when I was there, it wasn't super busy, even though it was high season because it was really foggy. And a lot of the flights didn't, a lot of the flights were canceled. But there was one day where it was. It was raining, but it wasn't foggy. And the flights were able to get in. And, yeah, there were times when you had to wait for a couple hours to go out on the platform to see the bears. So that definitely felt busy, even though it's really not that many people. So I think those things do kind of illustrate what you're talking about.
R. Jay F:Yeah, I think that's a that's anyway, that's just kind of all I wanted to say about that, I think is just that, that if you're looking for solitude, it's there for you. It won't just sorting by you know, sort the list by visitation number. Pick the lowest. Yeah, it's really it is a choose your own adventure as to how much or how little human contact us while you're there. Yes. So you mentioned hiking and you know, I'm not a hiker. I'm always quite open about. Yeah, hike for money. But I think hiking is obviously a way to get in Yellowstone, we used to say if you go 100 yards off the road, you will drop 90% of the people. Yeah. I definitely think that's even more so in Alaska. So it's a great way to find solitude if you want. What do you think the best hike is in Alaska National Park?
Jennie Flaming:Okay, it's that's a really tough question to answer, because I'm just gonna say, Jay said, he's not a hiker. Unless he's getting paid. I can vouch that's totally true. I, however, am a hiker. And if you're a hiker, you've got to do a hike in an Alaskan National Park. It's just fantastic on your trip. So I'm going to say the Harding icefield trail in Kenai Fjords National Park, which is near Seward. It is a really hard, hike really hard. But you don't have to go all the way to the end to see the amazing views. So I think the views are what make that hike truly spectacular. I don't think it's worth it. If you can't see the view. It doesn't have to be perfect weather, but there does have to be good visibility. So I think that would be my answer.
R. Jay F:I'm going to show my ignorance for a moment here. What about Portage paths? That's one of my favorites, but it's that's probably in the forest, isn't it? Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:it's in Shigatse is an awesome hike. And it's not as difficult as partying Nice. Cool.
R. Jay F:Totally. Okay, so while we're on the the superlatives of, yes, the national parks, yes. What do you think is the best Visitor Center in Alaska National Park?
Jennie Flaming:Well, going back to what you said earlier, J live Park Service does a really good job of sharing information and do mean and doing interpretation. I mean, that's part of what they do. So I've never been to a I've been to bad visitor centers but not in Alaska. All the ones I've been to there are amazing. Some of them are really tiny and like, kind of right next to the airport like the one in King Salman for Katmai and the other Park Service lands around King Salman. But that's just because of the remote location. It's still pretty amazing what they did with like, a tiny little corner of an airplane hangar basically. So they're all really good, but I think I'm gonna have two answers for this one one is kind of sassy. But the Wrangell St. Elias National Park Visitor Center that is located along the Richardson Highway and COPPA center is not only an excellent Visitor Center, but it also has the best bathrooms along the Richardson Highway. So I feel like it needs to get some props for that minor thing. Um, aside from that, I think I would really encourage you to if you're going to Alaska to go to one of the public lands information centers, there's four of them in Alaska. There's one in toke along the Alaska Highway One in Ketchikan, which is a great one to go to, if you're on a cruise, and one in downtown Anchorage and one in downtown Fairbanks. And even though they are not in national parks, they really get at all of these things Jay has been talking about around like public land in Alaska in general. And they're good visitor centers, and they have lots of free maps and lots of great information. So they're just a fantastic visitor resource for pretty much anyone.
R. Jay F:Yes, I am really glad you gave them a shout out the public Info Center is our unsung heroes for sure. It totally under utilized as resources in my opinion. Yes, you're a map geek, which I am definitively a map geek, same amazing files of maps. Yeah, spread them out on a table and like, lay out and it's pretty beautiful. It warms my heart to spread out like 20 topo maps. Yeah, and super fun. One cool thing about it too, is that they can kind of help guide you. There are certain types of land use that are not appropriate for national parks. You know, hunting is generally not allowed in any national park property. Right. And, you know, if you're a hunter, or if you want to go for, you know, riding dirt bikes, or four wheelers, or that kind of thing, National Parks are not really where you want to go and riding stock. Horseback is, is or is not depending on the national park acceptable and they can really help guide you and say like, oh, what you want to do would be best suited to this. You know, State Park, a lot of national parks have a state park bring around them. Yeah. A lot of times that land is much more open. Rule wise, for better or for worse. And Denali is definitely that way. Yeah, we're depending on what you want to do. The public lands info people can really help guide you, you know, and all the people that I've met at a public lands Info Center have been rock stars. Just great.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. Okay,
R. Jay F:so what do you think is the best tour as opposed to a hike or visitors Senator Liu but like best the best package to her from from a park vendor in a national park.
Jennie Flaming:This is a very easy one. It would be the day boat tour in Glacier Bay National Park. It's just absolutely phenomenal. Yeah,
R. Jay F:that's cool. I want to give a shout out to the cheapest tour in the National Park. The Denali bus system.
Jennie Flaming:Okay, the Denali bus system is also really cool, and it would be my number two is any trip into Denali on a bus, but the the Glacier Bay Deebo takes that the edge for me. I totally agree with you about Denali. It's also very cool.
R. Jay F:I'll just I'm just saying that the the cost is yes.
Jennie Flaming:It's very affordable. Yeah. And by the way, if since you gave me an opening to talk about the Denali bus tour, whether you take the Narita tour or the bus, the hiker bus the like hop on hop off transit bus. If you are going to Denali do not skip the bus she were because you think you don't want to go on a bus. And also make sure you listen to the episode we have coming up with Tom and Donna in three weeks about Denali it If you're not if I'm not convincing you that is the way to get away from it all into nally and you absolutely have to do it when you're there. If
R. Jay F:you're into national parks at all, you should listen to that episode because first of all, he's just written a memoir book that you should read. And also he is an OG, the real deal. Career Rangers, and he's a Yeah, he's a great resource. We were really able to get them on and mostly talk to them because Jenny and Donna worked together as a school counselor. Yes. So we were cashing in that particular chip. Yeah. Okay, well, I am also going to throw out for a I'm just going to say that I want to give a shout out to Brooks Range aviation and bottles, no business interests or relationship with us. But their tour fly into near the air gets peeks into gate to the Arctic will explode your frontal lobe as Yes. Beautiful landscape and rugged could look like so I'm gonna give a shout out to that, but it's not cheap. And it is very remote. Just getting to battles itself is kind of a process. So yes, but I just want to give those guys a shout out because they do an amazing job.
Jennie Flaming:Yes. And that would be a flight scene tour of gates to the Arctic. Correct? Yep. Yep.
R. Jay F:So Okay, last superlative. I'm gonna ask you. Okay. Best campsite.
Jennie Flaming:Okay, in a national park in Alaska, or Alaska? Yes. Okay. I am gonna allow it since this is the last question. I'm gonna allow myself three answers. So they have they're good for different reasons. So first of all, probably the best campsite anywhere in Alaska's national parks is definitely jumbo Creek in rainbow or Rainbow. Rainbow. What? Wrinkles seat Elias National Park. Now, this campsite is a hassle to get to. So that's why I'm not going to give it as my only answer. It is. It looks like a campground when you read about it on the internet, but it is not. It is a backcountry camp. It's about two miles from Kennecott. So to get there, you have to drive or fly to McCarthy, then you have to get a ride out to Kennecott get a backcountry permit, and then hike for two miles. But once you do that it's this beautiful location with an amazing view of the Wrangell mountains and the root glacier. So it's super cool if you can make that happen. And then my other answer that's a little out there would be Bartlett Cove campground and Glacier Bay. And it's kind of an amazing campground because not only is it free, but they provide water bear proof storage, you can pay to take a shower in the lodge, you can do your laundry in the lodge. And also when you're in your tent at night. If you're super lucky, you might hear whales like breathing in Bartlett Cove and that is just really amazing. I don't I don't really have words for what that's like. And hearing birds call it like you know others see other marine mammals splashing around out there. It's really cool. But that's also hard to get to so to answer your question, Jay for one that is easier to get to you. I'm going to say the savage river campground in Denali. You can drive to it I feel like one driving one has to be on the list here. It's a really nice alternative to Riley Creek, which is at the park entrance it's much quieter and smaller and it's right next to the savage River and there is a beautiful hike you can do there especially in the evening in the morning the light there is just stunning so I'm gonna be probably my real real answer.
R. Jay F:Yeah and I feel like that savage river one has also it has it just has a different feel than rally Creek which yes
Jennie Flaming:yeah, and Riley Creek is also great but savage river is just a really special place I
R. Jay F:think it's river opens and closes 10 jet tends to be open and closed later in earlier respectively. Riley Creek is is broader.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, that's true. Yeah, when
R. Jay F:small report but the sites are and other sites are less developed. And I like that I'm you know I'm trail hiker and an off site camper. So I like Yeah. But if you you know, want like a perfectly groomed spot for your tent or whatever, it's not necessarily as good, but it is a spectacular campground. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:definitely.
R. Jay F:Those are pretty good answers. I'll let you I'll let you go with that.
Jennie Flaming:Thank you. So as we move towards wrapping up this episode, you know, Jay, a few minutes ago you were talking about the importance of the human experience in the national parks and that these vast stunning wilderness landscapes have also been home to humans for 1000s of years. And in addition to humans who have lived in, in Alaska as parks for 1000s of years, there are also lots of humans who live in Alaska's parks now, and live and work there. So could you tell us just a little bit about some of the types of jobs people have in national parks that might not be visible to a visitor in the same way that say Rangers are visible?
R. Jay F:Yeah, you know, there's a lot of cachet with being a ranger and and, and I want to give full props to those Rangers out there. There's kind of two wings of people that we would generally hear people refer to as a ranger. One is the law enforcement officer inside the park service. Generally, that's what people mean, if they just say Ranger, that's a person who has a law enforcement credential, they're badged law enforcement officer, they will be carrying a weapon, they'll have a they'll have training from the federal government in law enforcement. And then there's the Ranger naturalist, which is the person who's often working at a visitor center desk or, or leading hikers, that kind of stuff. And that's an interpretive ranger or a ranger naturalist. But two thirds of the people in the National Park Service Work in maintenance. It's, and it's the unsung though, they're the unsung heroes, in my opinion. And I'm biased, because my father was a career long maintenance worker in a national park. But these guys work, you know, and gals, they work hard, their pay is actually generally fairly low. And they, you know, the joke has always you get paid in sunsets. And a lot of folks are seasonal workers, and then they have to put together work in their off parts of the year. And, you know, that's, that's a lot of the real work that gets done is by these folks. And if you're a person who has seasonal availability, think about it, it's a great way to serve the country and be in a beautiful place and the environment of national park employees, I like a lot. And I think when if you listen to Donald Tom's interview in a few weeks, you'll get a better feel for it. And you know, they can be a little bit like a small family in the better and the worst way, but But you know, folks are, are driving trucks and cleaning the campgrounds and collecting money and dispatch operators, fixing Road, cutting trees that are about to fall on campsite, all that kind of stuff. There's just a lot of work that has to be done in National Park. And it goes, it goes kind of unnoticed. And it's always a running joke that like people will want to add ranger to their titles for the for the public recognition, like, you know, I'm a garbage Ranger. Yeah, I want to also add just the sheer number of scientists is a huge mission of the National Park Service to understand the national parks better and, you know, ornithologist and, and, you know, everything from the trees, the birds to the archaeological history, all this stuff, there are scientists in all the national parks who are doing amazing research and fairly hidden way really so just I'd love you know, if you when you see stuff in the national parks, you know, and just remember there are a lot of folks back there making it happen for you. And and they, they love it. They love their work. And, but it's good for you to notice them, I think sometimes.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, absolutely. So speaking of noticing and thinking people who have served in the National Park Service to bring this episode to a close, Jay and I want to honor during this national parks week, the friends and family that we know personally, who have served in the National Park Service and a few of these people are rain jurors, most of them have worked up most of them are people who've worked in maintenance or in administration or are scientists or have been scientists for the National Park Service. Yeah.
R. Jay F:And we're, yeah, I would love to, to and I if I miss anyone, it's not intentional. It's I'm, I'm just sometimes kind of scatterbrained, but I'm gonna I'm gonna list off some folks that that come to mind about and really he was just on what he will have his his episodes are replayed, right. Yeah. Thanks for being on and Donna habecker, who will be on soon. Dan Otis, who is in DC serving and that is the most unsung service in the National Park Service to work in the DC offices.
Jennie Flaming:So unsung. Thank you, Dan.
R. Jay F:For all you do, and you know, maybe we'll have to get him on the podcast sometime too. Yeah, I think so. Alioto shall also be on the podcast sometime. Jeffrey sick and Julie Azael. Great archaeologists up in Fairbanks. Tasha Sloboda who has an absolute rugged woman of the wild and archaeologist Andy Tremaine. Christina Jensen, who died in the field and 20 years ago almost now. Bird Kirstie hotel my my last boss in the National Park Service. And fellow Park brat, I want to say she comes from a distinguished line of National Park Service heroes. And And last but not least, George Monroe, who was my sort of my coach and, and the role model when I was a young J. He was the boat ranger in Yellowstone and it really meant a lot to me. So I want to thank all those folks for the service they've given. And
Jennie Flaming:finally, jays, family Jays parents, Ray and Mary, who raised him in the Park Service, and Jays sister Julie and J himself. Both Julie and J have both worked for the National Park Service for many seasons as adults. Thank you so much to all of you for your service to our country. And thanks to all of you out there for listening to Alaska uncovered, if you like what you heard today, we would love to have you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any new episodes. They come out every Wednesday. Bye for now.