Alaska Uncovered Podcast
Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming. Jennie brings you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and Life in Alaska. Guests include Alaska travel experts and Alaska business owners, guides and interesting Alaskans. Jennie is a born and raised Seattleite, a former Alaskan and spends several weeks in Alaska each year. She’s an experienced guide and the Founder of the Alaska and Washington travel website, Top Left Adventures. Jennie is joined by occasional co-host, Jay Flaming, her husband for 25 years. Jennie and Jay met working in tourism in Alaska and have lived in Skagway, Juneau and Fairbanks together. Jay lived in Fairbanks for 8 years before meeting Jennie in Skagway and grew up in Yellowstone National Park.
Alaska Uncovered Podcast
Alaska Family adventure by road trip and cruise with the Taylor Family - Traveler Stories Series
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Rob Taylor of the 2TravelDads podcast joins Jennie to share about his experience on a small ship cruise and road trip with his husband and elementary and middle school aged sons.
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Music credits: Largo Montebello, by Domenico Mannelli, CC.
Welcome to the Alaska uncovered podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co host and full time husband, Jay and I bring you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska, travel and life in Alaska, before we start the episode, we would like to thank our Patreon members for making this podcast possible. You can join them at the link in the show notes. We are so grateful for your support of independent podcasts. Enjoy the show. My guest today is Rob Taylor. Rob is the founder of two travel dads, the original LGBTQ family travel blog. For 10 years, Rob has been providing travel inspiration and tips to families through his website, newsletter and podcast. He travels with his husband and two sons, and when not traveling, Rob now makes his home in St Augustine, Florida, Rob, welcome to Alaska, uncovered.
Rob:Thanks so much. I love Alaska, and I'm excited to actually get to talk about it, because it's Alaska's been my jam for 24 years. 25 years,
Jennie Flaming:yes, I know it has. And for those of you listening. One thing that Rob and I have in common, besides being born and raised in western Washington, is that we've both worked in the Alaska travel industry. Yep, it's an interesting industry. Yes, yes. So to start things off, Rob, so this is part of our traveler, traveler stories series. So we're going to ask about your trip that you recently took with your family. But by way of introduction and people getting to know you, can you share a little bit about your history in Alaska before marriage and family and then how to do travel dads came about. Yeah,
Rob:for sure. So, gosh, my introduction to Alaska was a fascinating whirlwind, which is really great to look at. You know, 24 years later, when I think about high school and then leaving high school and immediately just being whisked away to the last frontier. So yeah, right out of high school, I actually moved up to Alaska and was working within the cruise industry, doing stuff with Princess Alaska, which was a really great introduction, because it's, you know, you got your working job, and then you got all your free time, kind of at Nature's doorstep. So that was my baptism into the Alaskan life, and what I loved about it. So after coming back season after season, yeah, it was, it just really became really important to me, and really special. Then it was bizarre, because between working up at Denali and then working down on the Kenai, it was, you know, one of my favorite places, place where I would love to, you know, relocate permanently. But then life happened, and world me away. And then years and years go by, and I never got to go back and visit my friends, but they'd come visit me down into the lower 48 and then finally, this last summer, we, I don't know why it took so long. It was ridiculous. Um, I got my whole family up there, and we got to do Southeast Alaska. We went up and we did the Kenai, and we went up towards Denali, and I'm sure we'll talk about it. But we were there for the Fourth of July fire, all that stuff.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, some things happened this year in July. And did alley,
Rob:yeah, yeah. So it was, it was, I've forgotten what that was like to experience those sorts of, those sorts of obstacles in a destination where it is so heavily touristed. And it was interesting being on the non working side of that. So still loved it still great to be back home. It felt like but it was just, it was a different take. And my kids loved it. My husband loved it. So yeah, I'm ready to talk about it all. And then I have actually started writing about it for our website, which is, you know, two traveldads.com so we've been digging into our whole Southeast Alaska experience, and we do a lot of wildlife photography and education, so writing about that, and then, yeah, now we're starting to pull all of our notes, because, you know, as we travel, we take notes, because you never know what you're gonna write about, starting to go through all of that to put together, like what our full Alaskan itinerary looks like For us to recreate when there's not a forest fire.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, right, that's awesome. And I just gonna say, before we move on here, that you know this podcast is specific to Alaska travel, but most people listening to this podcast probably also travel to other places. And. So if that's you, I want to tell you that two travel dads is a great resource, especially for family travel in North America. But I will also say, and I don't know if I ever told you this, Rob, my husband is a big fan of your website, because when we were on a cruise and we were in Cabo, he was looking for a place to go snorkeling. And I don't, I'm not a snorkeler. That's like, not my thing. But I told him, I don't know how I even knew you had an article about that, but I did, and he devoured it, and he was like, This is awesome,
Rob:yeah, no, that's, you know,
Jennie Flaming:that's a good example of how you don't have to be a family even to, like, really enjoy that and your podcast as well. So I really would encourage people to check both of those out.
Rob:You know, eventually, someday, I'm gonna have to come back on here to talk about snorkeling in Alaska, because that is a five bucket list. Is snorkeling in on the coast. So, you know,
Jennie Flaming:I would love to talk about that with you, Rob, Better you than me. So we need to find a partner who will take you snorkeling, and then you can come talk about it. Perfect. I'll plan it all. Yeah, perfect. Okay, so Rob, tell tell everybody a little bit about So you mentioned, it's been a long time, and this was, I believe, the family's first trip to Alaska is that, right? Yeah,
Rob:it was so everything they knew was just from either what they'd seen on TV or heard me blab at them about, yes,
Jennie Flaming:love it. Okay, so why did you choose this particular trip that you did? And kind of what I mean by that the itinerary that you chose, and then we'll talk more in a minute about what that itinerary was, but what were the factors that went into that for you? Yeah,
Rob:so we were already, we were already working with a company called uncruise that is really cool, and we've done a project with them in Hawaii. And they're like, Hey, do you want to try out this other route in Alaska? And we're like, Yes, please. So we got to actually go to Juneau. And once we got there, we explored all around Juneau, which was really cool. I love that, that part of the state. It's really neat. And then, um, we did our sailing, which was completely different from what I always had seen other people, you know, post on Instagram from their cruise ships going through the Inside Passage and stuff. So we did, we we knew we had that in front of us. And then for us coming from Florida, it, you it would be wasteful to travel all the way to Alaska and then not take as much time as possible to go and, you know, hit Denali, hit the Kenai, do Anchorage, all of that stuff. So we basically built it on on the premise that I wanted to relive my heyday in Alaska. So, I mean, literally, it was just like, let's retrace the stat steps of all the places that I worked and when I was a driver guide, what were my routes? Let's go and do all the hikes along the way, and do all the wildlife sighting that we can in all the places that I know. So that was basically the foundation of our whole time planning our, you know, mainland Alaska trip. And you know what? It worked out great. And it was amazing because I had expected things to have changed in ways that I couldn't even, like, comprehend. Like I expected, like, massive growth and big, huge changes to not just like Anchorage, but all the small towns along the way. But there has, you know, in 20 years, not been a ton of development or much change at all like it was. I think that was actually one of the most surprising things about getting to go back to my old stomping grounds, was seeing how it was still the Alaska that I was first introduced to and that I still love and like, I mean, definitely things like around Denali can't, well, that whole area, once you get closer to the National Park, that's all developed quite a bit more, yeah. But in comparison to how, like our town here in Florida, has changed in, like recent years, it is its growth and its change is such a glacial pace, yeah, for Alaska, a glacial pace, in comparison with the rest of the lower 48 and how quickly things have been shifting down here. So that was that was really refreshing, and it made me feel really good about being back.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, that's awesome. One thing I should have asked right up front, Rob, can you tell everybody how old your kids are? They
Rob:are nine and 12, so they're that perfect age of curiosity. But also, know it allness. So it's this, it's a delicate balance. Yes, we do, yes. Okay, yeah, I
Jennie Flaming:get the sense. Love it. Okay. So I will also add that one thing, of course, you had more time than some people do for their trips. But one thing I like about what you did is you really saw you didn't, of course, see everything like that's not a thing. People who live in Alaska their whole lives have not seen everything, but you. Really took your family to these, like, different types of places, whether that was remote coves in southeast Alaska or the inland and Denali. You know, Alaska just has such a diverse landscape that's really cool that they got to see some of that variety.
Rob:Yeah, so, I mean, we're really fortunate because getting to run a travel blog, whether we're doing trips on our own or trips with travel partners, we are always really careful to make sure that we are doing educational trips that take us to different environments, different habitats, where if we're especially if we're missing school, we make sure that it's something where we're replacing school time with something that's really deeply educational, and then we're doing it on vacation. It just continues that way, because that's how we do it. Yeah. And so getting to, you know, do Southeast Alaska, and be in, you know, that forested, lush area, and getting to see, you know, Glacier Bay National Park, and be up close with, you know, just like the inner title zone, and really explore that which is so different from what we have here in Florida. Because, I mean, we have sandy beaches, we don't even have titles. It was that that part was, I knew was going to be cool and fascinating, but then we also really wanted to make sure that we could mix in the fjords. I mean, when I, when I lived on the Kenai Peninsula, going to Kenai Fjords was always one of my favorite things, because it was always something new. The second you got out on the boat, you never knew what you'd see. And so knowing that my kids love to just like, suck up all of that experience, I knew that that had to be a part of it. Yeah. And then also, you know, if you haven't been to Alaska, you hear about the tundra and you don't know what to expect. We're like, we definitely need to work that. And so knowing that, you know, we could get that into nali, that definitely was a key element to plotting our entire, you know, we took several weeks plotting our entire time to make sure that we had that balance of the coast, the fjords, you know, the tundra, the forest all of that, and I think that it really, for them, showcased exactly what makes Alaska special. The only thing we didn't get to do was, you know, go up to Prudhoe Bay and go explore up there. Yes. And we didn't get to go down to Valdez or over to no see, I'm making a list of all the things we need to do next time,
Jennie Flaming:right? Your future trips? Yes, that's yeah.
Rob:But we really, we really got at least, gosh, five extremely different environments in the entire time. They were just kind of learning things, filling out their their journals and their Junior Rangers, and, yeah, doing all that good stuff,
Jennie Flaming:awesome. So a couple more things about your itinerary. So you were on the cruise, which is uncruze, which is a small ship expedition, which you talked about. And by the way, for those of you listening, we have an episode that was one of our early ones in the spring of 2023 that is kind of specifically about small ship cruising. So if that's interesting, that's another good one to listen to you. But this will be great to get your perspective, especially with kids. So how many days were you with uncruze, and where did you start and end? Yeah, so
Rob:we were on the ship for eight days, seven nights started and ended in Juneau. And our itinerary for that was really interesting, because so when you go to, you know, book an uncruz and look at what you're going to be doing, you have a general idea of the region that you're going to be exploring, but you don't actually get an itinerary. Yes, the first time we sailed with them, it was driving me crazy. It was, I'm a planner, and not actually knowing what we're going to do each day was it was my brain really struggled with it. Yeah. The second experience, it was much easier just knowing that you know your captain, your expedition leader, they're gonna make decisions that are going to create the best experience for everybody based off weather, wildlife, patterns, things like that. Yep. So, um, being on a second Cruise was much more relaxing for me, because I just knew, Okay, we're going to be in this zone. I know we're going to be checking out Admiralty Island, we're going to check out Baranoff, going to do all these things. And I know that we end with Glacier Bay National Park. I know these things, yeah, and then it's just kind of rolling with it every day, and we went into these bays and straights that I had never heard of, like Idaho, straight was amazing. Was absolutely beautiful, full of otters, and we spent an entire day in this place called Crab Bay, and there were bears, and we went bushwhacking, and it was just each day was something that I didn't expect, because I had no idea what our itinerary actually looked like. And you know, it just it gave me a completely different view of Alaska, and for some you spent so much time there, I loved it. It refreshed my love of the entire state. So I.
Jennie Flaming:That's awesome. And by the way, for those of you listening, that is one major difference between a large ship and a small ship cruise, which is really worth thinking about, because, you know, large ships are like, we're going to be in Juneau from 11am to 8pm or we're going to be in Skyway from 8am to 8pm in Glacier Bay, from six to two or whatever, um, and you won't have that on any small ship. And then the upside of that is that, you know, there's a lot of flexibility there, but there's not so much time spent in like ports and things like that. So that that is something worth thinking about if you're booking a cruise, okay, so
Rob:right now, the only port we had with Juneau, yeah, yep, right. So
Jennie Flaming:if you're if you're towny, an a small ship Cruise is probably not the right choice for you, yeah, okay, so we'll talk a little more about the fire in a few minutes. But setting the fire to the side you then how many days did you plan to spend in Denali and on the Kenai Peninsula? And then did you have a rental car? I think you had a rental car. Yes, yeah. Okay, yeah. So
Rob:we, we flew into Anchorage, which, flying to Anchorage is the prettiest flight. Real pretty. It's amazing, yeah. And we got a rental car there in the airport, which was super duper easy. And then, of course, had to hang out with friends and Anchorage, because if you're making it all the way there, you gotta make time to see people absolutely, yeah, which is great, because it was again old stomping grounds, and seeing what had and hadn't changed, which is lovely. And then we had four days down on the Kenai so doing everything from going in, checking out Portage and Girdwood, that whole zone there, and then hiking in between there and Cooper Landing, which is where I used to live with Cooper Landing, it was just that was that was amazing to like, take The kids into those undeveloped natural areas that we do a lot of national park stuff. Taking them into places that are actually still legit wilderness was really great. And so we had a couple days doing the Kenai and all that stuff and and then going down to Seward. And we stayed at the Seward Windsong Lodge, which was delightful. It was very National Park. Lodg, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, um, doing the fjords was just, it was so great. And we got to experience humpback whales doing their bubble net feeding, which, as much as I'd heard about it and seen it on National Geographic, I never thought we'd get to see it ourselves, and we did. And it really was as incredible as TV makes it look like literally, it's just you see it kind of start, and then enormous whales just break the surface, and all you can do is just you try and take pictures, but it doesn't capture it, yeah, because it's just so amazing. So it was, um, the experience that we had being down on the Kenai was everything I hoped that my family would get to see. And it was very, it was very unchanged in terms of, you know, Seward still being this lovely little town that you can just kind of walk around, go to the Alaska sea life, check out some puffins there, do your boat. It was all, it was perfect. And then, um, about four days doing all that down there, and then we had four days, five days up doing Talkeetna and Denali. And I love having a backup plan, because you just never know. And who would have thought that this was a trip where we need a backup plan? So we had a couple days planned in Talkeetna, and we planned to go out on the Susitna River Denali State Park. One
Jennie Flaming:more thing I want to ask about your itinerary is now that you've done it. So was it three weeks total that you were gone from home? Yeah,
Rob:we were gone for three weeks. So we had some time in Juneau before our saline. We had our week aboard, a little more time in Juneau, and then anchorage Kenai, and then talking to Denali. Okay,
Jennie Flaming:cool. So aside from the fire and how that messed with your itinerary, which we'll get to in a minute, um, is there anything that now that you've done that trip, and I'm thinking, especially with your husband and kids in mind, is there anything that you would have changed about it for their first trip? Or did you feel like, yep, this was basically perfect for our family.
Rob:Um, you know, I wish that we would have set a couple days aside to, you know, go over to Homer maybe do some fishing on the Kasilof, some of those places that I always loved when I lived there. Yeah, but, um, I think that for a first trip, it really was ideal. Um, also, you know, not every family is used to being gone for a long time, right? So I think that is something that, you know, other people as they're planning, probably need to, you know, take into consideration. Yeah, for sure. But for us, I think that that this trip was just right. But yeah, just adding the west side of the Kenai would have been great, yeah. And then we if we did have more time, more time and more budget planning time to go to Katmai, that gives us something to do in the future. And that is a really big budgetary consideration that I did not account for this year. So that definitely is a future thing where it's worth saving, it's worth planning and doing it right. Really, that full bear experience, that's the only thing I would have changed through the whole thing. I mean, we got our tundra hiking, we got our time on the river, we did our fishing like it was good.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah. Awesome. And or we'll come back to the cruise in a little bit. But for other parents, right? I am curious if you felt like there were things when you were on the Kenai Peninsula, or tell Ketan or anchorage that you felt like were especially great for a nine year old and a 12 year old, or things that your boys just really enjoyed,
Rob:you know, one of my favorite things on the Kenai both, gosh, now, being an adult, adult, and when I lived there, was always just getting to experience the wildlife up close, particularly there around Russian River, because, you know, the Russian River, that's where it meets up with the Kenai River. And there tends to be just huge schools of sockeye that are going up that way. So you really it's almost like a guarantee that you're going to see bears. And it is such a good place to experience that sort of wildlife from a safe distance, because you do have a river separating you. And there is there, gosh, on our hike on the Russian River, we saw a beautiful Alaskan Brown Bear and about eight bald eagles. We got to see salmon, early salmon in the river. I think that sort of really up close wildlife, not necessarily encounter, but observation, yes. So great with this age group because it was new. It was so different from what we have. We don't have bears here. We have manatees, right? We different sort of thing that they felt a healthy cautiousness or fear with, but also absolute interest in such a beautiful place. And I thought, I thought that was the most age appropriate, but also all ages experience that we could possibly do. And it's not, it's not difficult hiking and but it's just, it's always amazing. It's beautiful. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:hi everyone. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Alaska uncovered with Rob. I wanted to break in and let you know that now that it is October, if you're listening to this in real time, the Alaska planning for winter and for the summer of 2025, is underway, and I would love to help you. So I want to quickly mention the ways I can help you beyond the podcast, I've got my free quiz that will give you an itinerary idea, just for you. I've also got my itineraries in my online shop, and I do both 30 minute planning sessions with folks, one on one, as well as if you want me to plan the whole thing for you, you can let me know. I always start with that 30 minute intro, just to make sure it's a good fit for both of us. But after that, if you want me to plan the whole thing for you, just let me know, and I'd be happy to do it. Happy October, happy planning season. Now back to the show. I I'm glad that you shared that specifically, because I think also, you know, without getting too far away from what we're talking about, that opportunity to learn about an ecosystem that you have there when you're looking at a salmon run, plus bears coming to feed there, and how the salmon, you know, sort of support that entire ecosystem is like another cool thing that I feel like your boys are at kind of right, just the right age to kind of start really getting that so, yeah, that's cool. I this summer, it took a trip to Alaska with my family, including my nieces and wildlife opportunities where they're a little older than your boys, they're 11 and 14, but wildlife was a big hit with them also. Yeah.
Rob:I mean, it's always a hit in any situation, but especially in Alaska, where you've kind of been conditioned to expect there to be wildlife every time you open your door, yes, it's perfect. Especially on the Kenai, it's yeah, it's exactly what you want it to be. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:yes. Okay, so let's talk about the fire Rob because you know, one thing that I think is great for people to hear who are listening to these traveler stories episodes is that. Not, you know, you have to have a plan, and that plan might go out the window because of a variety of things, including wildfire. So you were planning to go to Denali at the time it was closed because of the fire. Yes, yeah,
Rob:it was. We were down on the Kenai, and then I got a text from one of my friends in Anchorage who's like, turn on the news. And then we saw it, and we just kind of watched it. And each day leading up to our arrival, which we were set to arrive up there on, it was July 2 or third, yeah, each day I called our lodge. We were supposed to stay at the McKinley chalets. Yeah, it's a great spot. I love the chalets. Yeah, and the
Jennie Flaming:fire was, like, right behind it, literally, every single
Rob:picture on the news and online was the chalets with the fire. So it was, it was this really kind of nerve wracking thing of, you know, planning that perfect trip and then literally watching your trip go up in flames. And, I mean, thankfully the they had a lot of on the ground people fighting it, and they had the air sport and all that stuff. And they were able to, you know, protect the village, protect a lot of the forest and such. But it still was one of those things where every day there was still just as much uncertainty as the day before, up until our day of arrival, when we were supposed to, you know, get to the park, and then go and see music of Denali that night, and then the next day have our Wildlife Safari into the park on the, you know, on the on the bus, it was all they had to play it by ear the entire time, which, as a traveler who likes to plan and likes to be able to know it is really difficult to, yeah, understand, like, what, what is it that we can do, or what should we be planning? Because they don't even know if we can check into our hotel room. Like, what? What's a scoop? And I can't even imagine, like, people who had planned on camping up there, and then all of a sudden, needing to scramble with every other camper, with every other person, trying to find a place to stay like it's one thing about that, that part of Alaska is that it is built for the tourists to flow in and out. It's not built for a huge cancelation to make 1000s of people displaced overnight. No, it sure is not that's that's that that's the big downfall that, I mean, thankfully, we're pretty nimble people. Yeah, it's a place that I'm very familiar with, so I knew what to do. But I can't imagine the 1000s of other people who all of a sudden are like, what do we do? We've got, we know we're going up on the railroad and we're supposed to stay right by the park in the village there. I don't know what they did, but we just, we rolled with it, and we went to some cool state parks. You know, it was, it was an opportunity to do things that weren't on our original plan, which is great. And we went over to independence mine and did some really cool hiking over there. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah. So independence, mind, State Park was awesome because it was this perfect blend of history. I had this mine, and we actually learned why a lot of mines went out of business and shut down all around Alaska, which was fascinating, including, like, I mean, I'd been to so many of these mines, but it was not profitable because the cost of mining was so much more than what they would make off of the gold they were pulling. Yes, and so you're coming up, and you're seeing all these really amazing minds, but also it's just, it's this sad story that you kind of see play out in front of you. And it was interesting. So we were there at Independence mind state park, where there's an amazing trail, the gold cord Lake Trail, which initially felt kind of kind of tough for those of us who live down here at um, at sea level, yes, yeah, like going just straight up a hill. But it was cool because since we didn't get to go into Denali, we still got to do a bit of tundra hiking. And the kids fascinated by the landscape, because, you know, the permafrost, and you're seeing all this lump everywhere, yeah, and it was really, it was just really, really cool. And then, you know, the lake was still partially frozen for us, so, you know, the whole frozen lake atmosphere. And then my Florida kids get into play in the snow. That just made our little Alaska adventure even better. And then, yeah. And then after that, we just, we were there at the hatcherpass Lodge, which Wait, hatch pass Lodge, is that? What it is right there. I
Jennie Flaming:think it is, yeah, yep, yeah.
Rob:And we had a great lunch. There beautiful views, wonderful and then did another hike afterwards, to the the lane basin trail. I don't know if you're familiar with it. No, I
Jennie Flaming:haven't done that one.
Rob:So it's there in the archangel Valley, which is about 20 minutes or so away from Independence mine. It's part of the state park system. Also, and this trail is just fascinating because you are continually crossing streams that you don't see, like you hear them all around you, but you don't see them. And then again, it's more of that tundra space with these beautiful like glacial blue streams flowing between these like fairy mounds of permafrost and little waterfalls and super again, it's one of those things that for kids was awesome. And when we were done with it, even though it ended up being like a seven mile hike, when I told my kids it was one mile, um, you know, live and learn, right? Even after all that, Oliver, our oldest, he said it was his favorite high kid we've done because it was so fascinating and unusual. We didn't even see any wildlife on it. Was just this whole it was like fairy tale environment that looked like it was straight out of Lord of the Rings. It was perfect. So when you can't do Denali, all of this together, made for maybe even a better itinerary, I don't know. Yeah, it's pretty great. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:yeah. And, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, Rob, because these places like Denali that are, I mean, Denali is obviously amazing. I don't want to knock it and like, for someone who's not up for complicated logistics or doesn't wants to keep their driving time shorter. If you can let go of that name, you can find other places that are just as amazing, that will be just as great of an experience. Yeah?
Rob:Like, I mean, that whole Hatcher pass, fish hook area that's just north of Palmer, yep, it's really accessible, yeah. And, I mean, if you're driving Hatcher pass, know that it's, you know, dirt roads, so maybe go like the main road. But there are all these wonderful spots that are just, you know, 20 minutes outside of town that are really easy to get to. Yep, and they're not cost prohibited, they're not rental car prohibited. They are doable and amazing, so beautiful.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah? Love it, yeah. Okay, so Rob, I want to ask you a little more about traveling with kids in Alaska. This is something else we have a podcast episode about. Back in November, Erin Kirkland was on the podcast, and she's written a guidebook for kids in Alaska. But just to hear about your experience, and I know your kids have done a lot of traveling, and it's hard, because what I want to ask you is like, how family friendly Did you find Alaska? And I personally, even though I am not a parent, find that kind of a challenging question, because what do people mean when they ask that? Do they mean, are there lots of playgrounds? Do they mean, are there a lot of kids menus? Do they mean, are there a lot of things like specifically defined, designed for kids, and what age of kids, and are we talking about a toddler or a teenager? But based on your boys at their current age, nine and 12, like in general, did you feel like Alaska was a good environment for them? And like what you've talked about this a little bit already, right? Like being able to just get outside and explore and see wildlife, is there? Is there anything else you want to say about that, or anything that you found wasn't particularly great for your kids that you'd want other parents to
Rob:know? Yeah. So, I mean, there's lots of different types of family travelers, right? So think that in my mind, I kind of start to break it down by two different schools of thought when they're planning trips, and one of them is, what is the family budget trip? And then what is the family experience trip? And a lot of times those crossover, but I mean straight up Alaska as a place that is great for a family to go on a trip on a budget? No, not at all. Alaska, yeah, it's really expensive, like, it's as expensive as Hawaii, if not more expensive. Rental cars are more expensive, hotels are more expensive. Yes, food is more expensive in Alaska. Yeah. So in terms of that element of family travel, Alaska is not the most family friendly, because to get the right amount of space to accommodate you in a lodge or a cabin or a hotel, you you automatically have to double your hotel budget. And yep, rental cars are twice as much as they are down in the lower 48 and there aren't a lot of kids menus, which is actually a fascinating thing to discover. And when there are, it's grilled cheese like, come on, our kids eat real food. So it really is one of those things where, in terms of the tourism industry in Alaska being young, kid friendly, forward thinking, not so much. It's definitely, it's definitely crafted more for. Or the adventurous adult or the retired traveler, it's not it's not a place that's set up necessarily for families. Having said that our family had an awesome time, because we also do travel a lot, and we travel to weird places, and are very nimble with our plans, with our dietary requirements, with our accommodations, and we know how to make things work for us so with so much wildlife and nature and little road trip days, it's something that for our family, totally family friendly, because we know, yeah, you know, in half an hour, we're going to be another hiking trail that we can just hike for an hour, call it good, and kids will burn off their energy, and we can get to our main destination like we know how to roll with it, and Alaska has so many opportunities to provide you know, the fun and the distraction that you look for when you're on a vacation with your family. It's not something like you're going to be stuck sitting in city traffic and that's going to ruin one of your vacation days, it's that you've got a two hour drive to your next stop and you're gonna need to, you know, pull over on the side of the road at one of the wonderful waysides, use one of the pit toilets provided by the Alaska Department of Transportation, yeah, and run around in a field for a little bit. And, you know, look at the chocolate lilies and look at all the loop in and listen for birds and watch the Eagles fly over. Like it just because it's not commercial family forward, it doesn't mean it's not family friendly, like it's, yes, it's, I totally
Jennie Flaming:agree with you about that, even though I'm not a parent that absolutely matches my experience. Yeah, and
rob:I mean, definitely, you know, there's anchorage has parks, and Seward has some park areas and stuff like that. Juno actually has a fantastic playground just right by the Capitol building that we loved, and that was lifesaver when we had energy to burn. Yes, so, like, there are those sort of pockets of it, but you know, it depends on what your family's interests are, and how well kids deal with not being stimulated by civilization, elections and like, what's a good way to put it, commercially created experiences. You know, that's not what they're expecting. It's very doable, and is awesome for a family, if that's the goal, Alaska's not your place.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, I agree with that. And since we're talking about this, I'm just going to mention a couple other things that I always sort of give my clients a heads up about. I'm curious if, if you notice this as well. One is that there is not always child pricing available for tours. That's correct. If there is, it'll be a much younger child than in other places, and it's not that big of a discount. So be just aware that, like flight scene, for example, I'm only aware of one company that offers a child discount for flight scene, yeah, and
Rob:I've been actually researching a lot of flight scene for an upcoming trip that I've got in child pricing, it's, they offer like, a 5% discount, yeah, to bring a child who's like, 11 and under, like, it's, it's, it's very specific, and it's so minimal, and I think it's one of the reasons for that, not that I want to provide justification for high prices, but they have such a limited season that they need to make their entire year in a short amount of time, and they've got the demand for it. So there's not a huge need to make things, you know, cost friendly? Yeah, I get it like I don't love it, but I do understand it as a business person,
Jennie Flaming:yes, and similarly, now this might be different. I know we'll come back to this in a minute, but I know your uncruise Cruise was specifically catering to families with kids, right? We'll come back to that in a minute. But in general, cruise pricing is also not less for kids. It depends on the cruise line, it'll be less for like the third and fourth person in the cabin, but that it doesn't matter how old they are. And similarly, if it's like one parent and one child, you know? So, so that's another thing. Is like, and I agree with you, we don't want to justify high prices or make excuses for that, but at the same time, sometimes people are worried that, like someone is trying to screw them. And I'm like, no, no, this is just the way this economy works, that that just is the way it is. So it's not anything about you or this business. This is just the convention in this setting
Rob:and travel in Alaska, having worked in tourism in Alaska and having visited as a tourist in both of those things, it really is a very unique tourism economy. Tourism is not the only economy in Alaska, and I think it'd be a shame to think that. Is how the entire State operates, because it's not but it is a huge part for so many people, especially in places like Seward, where even, like, there's a fishing industry, but a lot of that is still tourists going out for the deep sea fishing or the salmon fishing experience. Like even, even those things that are everyday industries have a tourist draw and tourist element to them. So it's, it is one of those things where it is such a unique economy and destination that, yeah, the the whole budgetary side of it is fascinating, and visiting via cruise ship, sometimes is the more cost effective way, and sometimes isn't. So like, I mean, you gotta, you gotta figure out what sort of experience you want and just what you are, what that does, what the value is for you. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:I totally agree with you about that. And one other thing I'll just say about kids that I always caution people about, and I'm curious if this was your experience where you went, is that restaurant table service in Alaska is slow, and everywhere, no exceptions. And so that can be a challenge, that can be a challenge for adults, but especially if you're trying to entertain five year old, say, for 45 minutes waiting for food or waiting for a table or something like that, that can be a challenge. So I don't know if you want to add anything on that, but I think that's very real. I
Rob:literally, I literally wrote about this this morning, and I'm just going to quote myself, if that's what as I was writing, I said something to keep in mind, though, is that with any tourist town, a lot of the staff tend to be seasonal or turnover quickly, so you need to have some patience and grace with all of your interactions. People are learning menus and balancing shifting staff, because that is literally both having worked in tourism in Alaska and experienced it. That is what it has always been, and I think it will always be, because it's an amazing place to get to work. And some people are discovering that midway through the busy season, and some people come back every year, but maybe haven't gotten there just yet. So it is the staff fluctuation. And the staff experience is it is so varied. Unless you're going someplace like downtown Anchorage, where they have got some dedicated staff who live in Anchorage and who are working through the winter and are their tried and true staff. And even then, it's it could be a little iffy, you know, yeah, so. But something that, yeah, from Southeast Alaska all the way up towards Denali, that is a consistent theme, is you, you need to be patient, and you need to adjust your expectations of what the service will be like. I mean, everybody is friendly. People are working tours in in the tourism industry because they enjoy it and they don't mind interacting with new people constantly. But also it's, it's a tough industry to work in. It is sometimes it shows more than others. Yes, that's all I could say. I mean, yes, I
Jennie Flaming:told yes, yes, very well. Said, I love that you just happened to be writing about that. And then I'm like, Hey, Rob, what about
Rob:this thing? Oh, because it is, it is something that like, especially for for more less family tourists, but more adult and retired tourists, a huge part of travel is the food experience, and like you do see that in more of luxury destinations versus frontier destinations. But even still, a lot of people approach it as you know, coming from a cruise ship and doing their land tour, they're still expecting that top tier experience. Yes, they're off the ship. Not the case. And tell me
Jennie Flaming:about it. I'm often their tour director. We picked them up from a luxury cruise ship at 7am in Seward when they just paid their bar tab. And I'm like, Hello. Welcome to the land portion of your tour. It's gonna be different. Now gonna
Rob:be different. And every time it's gonna be different, you can't even tell them what it's gonna
Jennie Flaming:be like, oh, like, I don't know what the weather will be like. I know, but what I can tell you for sure is that your hotel is gonna be more rustic. That's what I can tell you for sure. Yeah, all right, cool. So Rob, I would love to have you talk a little bit, if you're willing about what it's like to travel in Alaska as a gay family. And I think this is something that even for people who are not gay will probably find this really interesting as well, and it's something that I've had a lot of clients ask about, especially people who live in like Portland or Seattle, they're like, is this gonna be okay? And I know you live in Florida, in a place where things can be very fraught for gay families. So I'd love to hear whatever you want to share about that, either what your experience was, or how straight families can help support gay families who are traveling. I'd love to know anything about that that you want to
Rob:share. So I it's very delicate to talk about, because I don't ever want to come across wrong or rude or prejudice a way that somebody's not expecting. Yeah? So that's my disclaimer as I give my thoughts, and it's my opinion, it's my observation and my own lived experience, and that's what we want to hear. Yeah. So, I mean, you're right. You know, we live in Florida, where it is. We are an anomaly, being an LGBTQ family in such a very red, very conservative state, despite, you know, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, you know, we live in a tiny County, so we are very much used to not being the norm. Yeah, when we got to Alaska, you know, we started in Juneau, which Juneau still feels more like the Pacific Northwest versus mainland Alaska. And also that is the vibe there. You know, when we moved from Washington, we moved from Suquamish, which was one of the first nations to condone and bless LGBTQ marriage, yeah, so like that is the native, indigenous culture that we're coming from. And when you get to Juneau, it is very similar. It's that same sort of full on embracing, welcoming, not just when you are, you know, doing native culture, native history sites, but all through the town. And I think it was also really visible, right? Whenever I talk with tourism boards, I always try to get them to either publish a directory or have some sort of sticker that businesses can put in their windows that really does state something like safe space or private things like that. In Juneau, that was the case everywhere. So even if it wasn't something that was specifically done by the city, it was visible that the people of Juno wanted us to be there, not just because we were spending our money, but they wanted to make us feel welcome there. And I think that really was a great surprise. I was not surprised because it's what I expected, because it does feel just like the Pacific Northwest when you're there, but also, like, I do know that there are parts of Alaska that are very either conservative or just not open to that progressive, that liberal, that sort of different other. Yeah, but Juno was wonderfully welcoming about that. And I mean, same with Anchorage. Anchorage is it's a city. I mean, it's not a town, it's a city. It's a city that feels like a town, but it still is, lots of people, and then when you get down onto the Kenai, it does become a little more of that rural, rustic. But even then, that's one of the places where you have seen that sort of progress, like you've seen, you know, new businesses come in that clearly have that sort of Seattle, Portland, urban spin on hipster culture sort of thing that tends to be more welcoming of the LGBTQ community. So it just, it feels welcoming and great. But then the other the other side of that is, you know, once you do get out into those rural areas and out into nature, and this is where people might tend to, you know, disagree with me. I do find that the people who are intentionally spending time out in nature and hiking and doing wildlife, things like wildlife observing, maybe some hunting and fishing, but primarily that's not my experience. Who are just out there in nature to be to exist with the earth. They are very welcoming and accepting, and when you encounter them, you don't feel unwelcome or unsafe. And so that's what you know we do, predominantly do when we're traveling, is those sorts of experiences, yeah, so the people we interact with, I mean, there are kind of people, yeah, they're the people who just want to be and see what the earth and the environment is like. And so there's not an opportunity to let the political or the conservative side of them come out, whether it be in those temporary conversations or in just being, you know, confronted with that on a trail. It's not like it's it's a place where we feel welcome. We're in our zone. It's, it's great. We're with like minded people out in the wilderness. Great, awesome. So, I mean, everybody does have a different level of comfort with that. Yeah, there's places here in Florida where I don't feel comfortable, yeah, where we avoid but Alaska isn't like that for me, because it is. You. Know My stomping ground? Yeah, it's a place where it's full of people who are like me, whether they're part of the LGBT community or just welcoming. That's, that's the vibe and culture of Alaska, so but, I mean, don't, don't go past those No Trespassing signs, because you don't know what you get. But in the city, yes, trails, you're good to go. I mean, it's, it is. It's a place for everybody, which is great.
Jennie Flaming:And you know, I'm thinking, as you're talking Rob, about how one thing that is wonderful about your blog and your podcast is, even though it is specifically like, this is what it's like to travel as an LGBTQ family. It's also like families are families and and these are things my family likes to do and things other families like to do. So I think that's really I hope that we have a world and can create a world where you don't have to be in an urban area to be accepted as a family for who you are,
Rob:yeah. And I really think that that's what does make going out there, you know, beyond those structured tourist sites, yep, in Alaska. So cool is that once you're out there, you're all just humans out in the wilderness, yeah, good for all of us for going out and exploring, right?
Jennie Flaming:For sure. Well, I really appreciate you sharing about that, Rob, I know that isn't always an easy thing to talk about, even though you have a lot of practice. So thank you for
Rob:sharing that. Happy to talk about it anytime. Yeah, I'm an open book.
Jennie Flaming:I know you are, but I still appreciate it. Okay, so finally, just to wrap up here, because I know, you know, we could probably talk for another like three hours about all of these things we've been talking about. But, um, I'd love to know specifically about your experience with uncruise as a traveler with a family, um, and I know this is difficult, because I consider a small ship cruise and a large ship cruise to be not the same thing. Like, those are completely different experiences appropriate for different people. Yeah, um. And then, of course, compared to like traveling on your own, not on a cruise at all, is yet a different way of experiencing Alaska, but specifically with uncruze, what would you say is the biggest benefit? And I'm thinking specifically with your kids, of going that route versus not, and maybe what is one drawback again, with kids of doing it that way? Yeah,
Rob:so it's interesting, because having, again, having worked for cruise lines, and then having experienced as a passenger, and then having done small ship cruising, it is it's a this really interesting dichotomy of what the experience and what the clientele is like. And it's kind of like what I was just talking about with, you know, being out in nature is that you are surrounding yourself with like minded people who are looking for that same sort of experience when you're doing a small ship sailing what you are, what you've set yourself up for is to spend a week doing interesting activities and adventures with people who are In that same mindset of wanting to experience things differently and not just wanting to, you know, go into port, go to diamonds International, get a new piece of jewelry and then get crab and an Alaska t shirt. You know, you
Jennie Flaming:weren't there primarily for jewelry and T shirt shopping. No,
Rob:no, but that's what, that's what shocked, that's what a lot of people do, is gag way and Ketchikan is they just kind of walk into the port when you're planning, you know, doing a small ship, especially with kids, what you are setting yourself up for is seeing the nature and getting into places without all the people and all of the commercial stuff, yeah, that you see when you are in cruise ports. Cruise ports. Cruise ports can be really cool, and there's cool ones in Alaska, yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't want to make it sound like I don't love them, because they do. I think Ketchikan is super cool. Yeah, gag, way cool stuff, yeah, but getting to wake up each day without knowing that we're going ashore to go shopping, or gonna go on a mass tour with tour busses and a guide. Yeah, I loved that experience, like the kids each day, like we hit a point in our sailing where the kids were doing activities without us like we we went bushwhacking. They went on a shore walk with a guide. You know, we hit that point where it became, choose your own adventure. You know, do you want to go kayaking or, and then half of us will go and do this other thing. Do you just want to? Do you want to sit on the hot tub on the top deck? Or, do you want to, like, like, what do you want to do? It really, I know that some cruise lines do talk about freestyle cruising. And choosing your own activities and dining and all that. When you're doing something on such a small ship, it feels like you literally do get to choose what sort of thing you want to do. If you weren't feeling it, you can choose to chill and just read a book and watch the whales as they surface next to the ship like you do your thing, and it's it's pretty amazing, because you also get to know people, which I know I haven't experienced that on a large ship, where you've gotten to know your dining companions, or people who have just happened to choose the same excursions as you. I haven't experienced that, but with both of the uncruz ceilings we've done, we have gotten to know the people and gotten to, like, have the people that we enjoy hiking with and have the people that we know. You know, let's all bring our cameras and let's just go and geek out over the wildlife. It's, yeah, it's really fun to kind of form those relationships and kind of discover your own little community on a small ship over the course of a week. And I think that is, I should be their spokesperson. I think that is, you should. It's such a special sort of experience. And the the the drawback to it, because you asked, you know, is there a drawback? Yeah, the only thing really, that I can come up with is that the cost is more than you might get if you were to book a family of four on, you know, a mega ship. Because consider, consider it the bulk discount, right? It really, it is that, you know, you're not, you're not getting the attention to detailed service and the intimate nature experiences when you're on a large ship as you do on a small ship. So there is definitely the value in the cost difference is very obvious to me, but also it's funny, because when we after we did our Hawaii sailing. I actually broke down the cost of if you went island hopping on your own versus doing the Hawaii cruise, and if you did an Alaska cruise versus the uncruised small ship. What the differences were and cost wise, in Hawaii, it's less expensive to go island hopping on the small ship versus doing it on your own. But then in Alaska, it is almost like, once you've started adding on specialty dining and drinks and excursions, right, cost ends up being about the same for a family of four. So it's like, yep, you have to decide what value you're gonna find and want to pay for upfront, yep. Oh, and I totally
Jennie Flaming:agree the cost is not as different if you account for all the things that would make it more equivalent. Yeah. So I think you have to, if you're really evaluating and that literally the value
Rob:that literally is the only drawback that we could find to it, because we really, we sat down to try and figure out, like, what is the difference? What is what makes this so much more worthwhile? Because the price tag is so much more, yeah, and ultimately, when you break it down, it's the same, yeah, that's so special and unique.
Jennie Flaming:I also one other thing I would say, just to wrap that part up, going back to something you said earlier about I don't remember your exact words, but you when we were talking about family friendliness in Alaska, you were saying there aren't necessarily as many sort of commercially curated opportunities for kids. If you compare uncruise to like a Disney cruise, also the Disney Cruise is going to have way more it's designed for kids in a different way, but not when I was a kid. I would have hated that, right? I would have been like your kids, and really loved this experience. So I think some of it, too, is knowing your family and what's going to make it a good experience for your kids.
Rob:And I mean it also then it boils down to what sort of trip are you taking, and why are you Yep, are you taking a trip because of the ship, or are you taking a trip because of where you want to go and the experiences you want to have? Like, that's a huge thing. And a lot of people choose to go cruising in Alaska for the ability to enjoy the view as they sail along and the restaurants and entertainment on board. And then people want to go and go into remote coves. The one of the things I loved was that we were pulling up to waterfalls every couple, like, every other day or so we would get, like, right up in a waterfalls business and just enjoy that up close and that like, sure we didn't have like, musical performers and a stage show each night. That was fine. I would rather have waterfall be my stage show.
Jennie Flaming:So. Yes, it
Rob:depends on what you want your experience to be like. Some people need a different sort of trip that is much more of that mainstream, expectant experience and more power to them. Great. You know, every everything has its purpose and has its audience. And might not be me. I might not be the target audience.
Jennie Flaming:That's okay, it's right. It's there for it's there for the people who want that. Yeah, yeah.
Rob:And also, I mean, another thing to consider with that is there's some people who need the mellowness and accessibility that a large ship provides, when that necessarily isn't something that a small ship can do. You know, you might be accessible around the ship, but doesn't mean that they are going to have lots of accessible activity each day. So it's you got to do what's right for
Jennie Flaming:you. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Okay, so Rob, before we go one final, quick but hard question, if you could go back in this trip and have one meal again, what would it be? Oh,
Unknown:that's a difficult one. I
Jennie Flaming:know it is. Alaska isn't necessarily known, like famous for having great food, but I know it's pretty amazing there. Well, so,
Rob:and it's really funny. So I used to live in Cooper Landing, so I was so excited to go back. Yeah, you know, we went up to the lodge to where I used to work at the princess Wilderness Lodge, and I was all happy. But then we're, I love the KPL, but then we're like, oh, look at this Cooper Landing brewing. And we went there because I love a good brewery, yes. And it actually, so again, you know, we're talking about the cost of everything and how you're like, oh, gosh, everything's expensive in Alaska. Yeah, we did get some of the most expensive burgers ever. I say the burgers at the Cooper Landing Brewing Company were the most value, accurate burgers I've ever gotten. The most delicious hamburger I've had in my memory was there at the Cooper Landing Brewing Company. It was, that's
Jennie Flaming:a bold statement, and I so I'm glad that you shared that. Yeah, it was awesome.
Rob:And I'm really glad that place was not open when I lived there, because I just would have been there every single day. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:yes, yeah. And you probably would have ended up in the red as far as your paycheck for this. Oh, God,
Rob:for sure, definitely.
Jennie Flaming:Oh Well, Rob, thank you so much for being here today and sharing about your family's trip to Alaska. Thank you so much.
Rob:Yeah, this is great. Have me back anytime. I have so much more to say. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:I know you do Okay, so we'll have to do this again. All right, thanks, Rob. Bye for now. Hi everyone. Jennie, here. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Alaska uncovered podcast with Rob Taylor. It's so fun to talk to people like Rob about their trips, and we are excited to bring you these traveler stories episodes more frequently, hopefully every month, starting now, that's the plan. So just wanted to invite you again to help keep us going by subscribing to our Patreon. And we are so grateful for our Patreon subscribers and supporters who help keep Alaska uncovered going. Thank you and See you Next time you
