Alaska Uncovered Podcast
Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming. Jennie brings you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and Life in Alaska. Guests include Alaska travel experts and Alaska business owners, guides and interesting Alaskans. Jennie is a born and raised Seattleite, a former Alaskan and spends several weeks in Alaska each year. She’s an experienced guide and the Founder of the Alaska and Washington travel website, Top Left Adventures. Jennie is joined by occasional co-host, Jay Flaming, her husband for more than 20 years. Jennie and Jay met working in tourism in Skagway, Alaska and also lived in Juneau and Fairbanks together. Jay lived in Fairbanks for 8 years before meeting Jennie in Skagway and grew up in Yellowstone National Park.
Alaska Uncovered Podcast
Hiking and Eating in Palmer with Kierre Childers
Kierre Childers joins Jennie to share the joys of the small town of Palmer, near Anchorage but a world away from busy visitor areas - with great food, great hiking, great people and lots of year round fun.
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Music credits: Largo Montebello, by Domenico Mannelli, CC.
Jenny, welcome to the Alaska uncovered podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co host and full time husband, Jay and I bring you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska, travel and life in Alaska, before we start the episode, we would like to thank our Patreon members for making this podcast possible. You can join them at the link in the show notes. We are so grateful for your support of independent podcasts. Enjoy the show. My guest today is Kierre Childers, and she is the owner of Revel tours in Palmer, Alaska, and so we're gonna be learning about Palmer today, as well as about revel and the kind of tours that they operate. So welcome Kierre. Thanks for being here. Yeah.
Kierre:Thanks so much for having me. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming:So let's start the way I always like to start, which is hearing how you got to Alaska.
Kierre:Yeah. So I started my my Alaska journey, I guess, in Willow Alaska. So I came up to volunteer on a trail crew in Nancy Lake State Recreation Area. The plan was to be up here for a summer and then move away. And of course, as it does to so many of us, Alaska just sucks you in. So I stayed, yes, it doesn't pay to volunteer in a park. No, as you can imagine, although really great life skills were developed. But yeah, left the park gig and I started working in Palmer for the electric association. So Matanuska Electric Cooperative I was, I started working there, and fell in love with Palmer. And the story goes on. So
Jennie Flaming:nice and just so in case someone is listening is doesn't know where Palmer is, where's Palmer?
Kierre:So Palmer is about an hour north, slightly east of Anchorage. Yeah, really easy, quick drive, but it takes you off of there's like an interchange in Wasilla. Folks know where that is, where, kind of the Glen and Parks Highway connect, and so Palmer is east of that. Yeah, cool.
Jennie Flaming:Well, let's talk about Palmer a little bit to start, and then we'll get into Revel. So what are some of the things that make Palmer kind of a unique community in Alaska?
Kierre:Yeah, I love Palmer for so many reasons. I think our community is absolutely wonderful. It's got a really quaint downtown area that's beautiful to walk nice restaurants, a bookstore, a bike shop, you know. So there's lots of amenities in the Palmer area, but we don't have, we don't have any national park designations, and so I think it tends to not be on people's radar, which is something that's kind of makes it special. Yes, yes. I
Jennie Flaming:want to ask you more about that. Yeah. So
Kierre:that's really special. Geologically, Palmer is absolutely fascinating because it sits between two mountain ranges, between the Chugach mountain range, which is kind of the mountains to the south of Palmer, and then the Talkeetna Mountains to the north. So Palmer sits in this big glacial Valley, and walking around town, you really get a sense that you're in a valley, because you've got mountains all around you. So that is super fascinating. As far as Alaska native cultures, we have both atna and danaina presence in that area. And then the Matanuska colony project is a really interesting part of the Palmer story as well, with lots of historic buildings downtown. And so there's just so many cool layers that, depending on what you're interested in, whether it's getting outside in the mountains or learning about the history of the area, area, I think Palmer just has it all. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:that's awesome. So for visitors, you know, Palmer, I think, is one of those places that's great to consider if you want to get a little off the beaten track or away from crowds. And sometimes people are surprised to find that they will encounter a few crowds in Alaska and certain kinds of places. Um, is, is Palmer a good place to stay? Like, are there a lot of hotels or vacation rentals. Do you have both of those, or more of one than the other, depending on what kind of style people like to travel like, what are kind of the best options? Yeah. Palmer,
Kierre:that's a great question, and I think to be fully transparent lodging, it can be the biggest hurdle for folks staying in Palmer, yeah. So we've got a couple hotel options that make that are a great fit for depending on what folks are looking for. Yeah, one's the Alaska glacier Lodge. So that's out the Kinnick River Road. Really beautiful lodging there. They've got a cabin set up, and then they operate helicopters from there. So, I mean, you could, you could do a lot from. That point. Yeah, we also have some, I'd say, more budget friendly hotel options in the downtown area, which is great. And then a growing number of Airbnbs are popping up as options as well. And so there's a nice, I think there's a nice spread, depending on what folks want to do,
Jennie Flaming:yeah, yeah, it's definitely not a place you want to show up and wing it, though, because we're in Alaska, but there's not, like, tons of options, so
Kierre:it would be challenging to wing it, yeah, especially if you, if you want to maximize your time, I think it's worth planning the lodging part in advance, for sure. Totally.
Jennie Flaming:Okay, so, um, we're gonna talk more about tours here in a minute, but I'd love to hear, for a person who wants to include Palmer on their itineraries, maybe they're gonna do a day trip, or maybe they're gonna stay there or stay in Wasilla, which isn't too far away, no, 15 minutes, another option. What are some things that people can do on their own in Palmer and Palmer? Yeah, that's
Kierre:a that's such a great question. So on your own in Palmer, you can definitely hike. There's lots of hiking. The Independence mine had your pass. Area is just a short drive out of the downtown area, I'd say, 30 minutes, and you're up and had your pass exploring that just as a scenic drive. If you're not feeling, you know, super adventurous is phenomenal. And, you know, the drive up to Hatcher pass gets you into alpine tundra, and so you're just looking at these incredible mountains, and you don't have to leave your car like, that's amazing. Yeah, other things to do on your own. I think just like walking around the downtown area is super lovely. We have two museums downtown, the visitor center and Palmer Museum, and then we have the colony House Museum. Those are both very interesting to check out. And then other things to do on your own. I mean, yeah, I think those are the highlights. Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Okay.
Jennie Flaming:Love it. And also, when you mentioned Alaska glacier Lodge and Alaska helicopter tours, yeah, for folks listening, we do have an episode about that with Dawn Campbell. That's a great place. Yeah, yeah. So go back. That episode was in January of 2024, so go back and listen to that one. If you're like, Ooh, a helicopter sounds kind of intriguing, because it is a pretty awesome tour. Oh my gosh, and they have quite a few different options. It's
Unknown:absolutely epic. Yeah, yeah, cool.
Jennie Flaming:Okay, so let's talk a little bit about about revel. Tell me a little bit about the kinds of tours that you offer, yeah bull and to who,
Kierre:yep. So we offer, and I'll say too, it's evolved over that. You know, this is our third year of operation, so it continues to evolve in a really good way. But we offer hiking trips, history trips, and a variety of, I'd say, educational activities that range from mild to wild. So when we started, it was just hiking, and we found that a lot of folks were wanting to come to Palmer and learn about the area, but didn't necessarily feel super stoked about hiking. Yeah. So we started offering trips that, you know, take that out so you can still learn and walk around the area, or drive around the area. You can still learn about Palmer, but you don't necessarily, we're not taking you up in a mountain. And then as far as the like, exact trip. So we have, we've got a rocks, rivers and glaciers trips that's taking people up the Butte. If you're familiar with that, it's a big landmark in the Palmer area, a super popular hike for locals. And what's great about the Butte is, you know, you climb up 800 feet, and then you can see the Connect glacier on a clear day. You can talk about glaciology of the valley, about our glacial rivers. Wide is the Butte there in a valley that is flat. I will not, I will not reveal the answer here.
Jennie Flaming:I was gonna say I don't know the answers. Yeah, I'll have to come visit you. And have you told me? Yeah.
Kierre:So that's that's been our most popular trip this year. We also offer a hike and brew, which is like a half day hike. And then we visit a local brewery. My favorite way to hike in, Palmer, for sure. And then we offer a full day next year. We're calling it the it's a Hatcher pass hidden waterfalls hike, which would be really great. I'm excited about that. So those are, I'd say the hikes are around the more adventurous end of the spectrum. And then we also offer, we're doing a downtown Palmer historic walking tour. Oh, nice. So that's about an hour and a half and takes folks all around the area teaching them about the history of Palmer. And then if folks wanted to book like a private trip on their own, then we can, we can do that either either as a day or multi day trip, and customize it depending on what they want. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:yeah. So that would be something. Where people would just get in touch with you and be like, This is what we're looking for, and you can put that together for them. Yeah. We
Kierre:really like to start that with a conversation, because everybody really wants such unique Alaska experiences. It's, it's really helpful to talk, talk about what the trip goals are before we plan anything. Yeah. Oh, and then I'll say so next year, we're starting to offer farm tours, which I'm really, really excited about, because, I mean, like we talked about before, the Palmer story is just there's so much depth there, and farming is such a an interesting part from the past and part of the present, and yeah, and so we work with a local farm, sauntering roots, these amazing women that own this farm, and they talk about the struggles of being a new farmer in the Palmer community, because buying farmland is really, really expensive, yeah, so they're maximizing very small plots of land. They also organize the community farmers market, so I won't blab on about them, but they they rock. Oh, that sounds so
Jennie Flaming:fun. Yeah, cool. So the tour would like go to visit them and kind of learn about farming, yep, farming
Kierre:from today, and then why Palmer's such a great agricultural area. So the history of kind of farming. Palmer is home to an experimental farm. I don't know if you're familiar with this
Jennie Flaming:at all? I am, if you don't mind, I'd love to have you share with everybody a little bit about that. Yeah, because farming is not what's the word? Not everywhere in Alaska. There's, you know, kind of only a few places. And so I would love to hear Have you shared just a little bit about that. Well, you know, giving away everything you talk about on your two words.
Kierre:Okay, so, um, so farming, gosh, I want to say it was the early 1900s you know, United Alaska was still a territory at this point in time. And a big thing, from what I've understood with the federal government, was understanding what was possible in the territory. So seven experimental farms, or stations, I guess is probably the more accurate word. Were established around the territory. One was established in Palmer. Two still exist today. One's in Palmer, one's in Fairbanks, and they do all sorts of research. They also kind of work as what I would consider adult 4h if you're familiar with 4h so community members can take all sorts of classes there now, like how to can fish, how to mushroom hunt, how to field, dress, small game. So it's a great community resource, but also part of the Palmer history, yeah. And so that's, that's, that's the experiment part,
Jennie Flaming:yeah. Oh, that's so cool, awesome. Okay, so are there any other kind of tours that you offer that aren't private tours that you'd want to talk about at all
Kierre:the small group stuff we do offer packages in partnership with blue water base camp, but I would say those are best suited for like family. So those would end up being private trips.
Jennie Flaming:We also, by the way, have an episode, yeah? So
Kierre:if we hit five, is it bingo, yes, yes,
Jennie Flaming:you're getting extra points, yeah. So for those of you listening the episode, we had about blue water, which is a new, beautiful property. That is just really unique and cool. That was in early July of 2024, so go back and check that one out. But yes, go so go ahead. So
Kierre:yeah, so that, I think I pretty much covered our summer trips. We're full disclosure, we're still kind of firming up our 2025 products, which I think is such a funny word for trips.
Jennie Flaming:I know it's like, but what? Yeah, but it is what they call it, yeah.
Kierre:So for summer that that there might be a couple additions, depending on kind of what unfolds in the next month. But then we also offer winter trips. So we did winter, we do enter so those are all small groups. So you can book a seat as a solo traveler or a couple, not necessarily a private trip. And that's snowshoeing, winter hiking. We offer cross country ski trips as well, which and those really come in the form of a lesson and then a ski. So if you're like, I don't ski, we can teach you, yeah. And we have also a sledding trip in Hatcher Pass, which is so fun, it's honestly Okay, I'm gonna, I think I'll hit four, but that's an idea from Mandy at salmonberry.
Jennie Flaming:Okay, so we haven't had Mandy, oh yeah, okay, you're going to, yeah. So that is, like, maybe a double one, oh, my God, is actually foreshadowing? Okay, yes, well, she's
Kierre:an idea powerhouse. And just like, in passing was like, You should offer sledding at Hatcher pass. And I was like, Oh my gosh, Mandy, that's such a great idea. So we do offer sledding as well. Oh, that is so fun. And then, like, while our hiking, everything comes with, like, hot drinks and winter gear is so. Yeah, we kind of deck you out to make sure you stay comfortable. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:that's important, yeah. And, you know, that is something that a lot of people ask about when, when it comes to winter, especially, is like, people want to come experience those adventures or see the northern lights, but they're, like, really stressed about packing totally. So it's always nice to know if you're going on to, you know, you don't necessarily need to bring stuff for sledding if you're gonna do that once totally you guys have things. And by the way, um, this is fourth episode of referencing now, so, um, September 2024 you had an episode about winter in Anchorage, and that would really pair well with that, because Palmer is so close to Amy, yeah. I mean, that would be cool, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. On sledding, Hatcher pass, it's epic. Sometimes
Kierre:the ski club grooms the mountain, like the hillside of the mountain, yeah? So you're like, going on a packed trail, if, if all the stars align and it gets groomed. And if it's not groomed, it's also still fun. But yeah, and then you're in this huge like bowl with mountains all around you. Yeah, the Alpenglow in the mountains? Yes, I
Jennie Flaming:know it's so pretty. I need to redeem Hatcher pass, because the last time that I was there was in March 2020 okay, it was March 13 of 20, 2014 March 14 of 2020, which was a a day when things were changing very rapidly. Yes, I my husband and I were up there with our friends that live in Anchorage, and we were cross country skiing. Oh, and he tore his ACL, oh my gosh, yeah, interesting, yes, only like a mile from the truck, luckily. I mean, like, right there. Okay, no,
Unknown:did you so what happens then I have never torn my ACL,
Jennie Flaming:well, you can't you can't move. You definitely can't ski. So we did some kind of unforecast sledding where we kind of had him on the skis to, like, get down, you know, so we kind of had that figured out. But then there was a ranger down there who came and, like, got him on the snowmobiles so he didn't have to, wow. Anyway, that's lucky. So yeah, so it was kind of a weird time. Anyway, this is a tangent, but yes, I know I need to go back and be like, let's do it without the going to the emergency room during the pandemic. That's ideal. Although probably the funniest thing about that was we were when we were at the hospital, and they were checking everything out and making sure he could still fly and whatever. You know he's and he's the co host of this podcast. He's not here today, but people listening will know Jay. So we were at the hospital, and they're like, yeah, it's, you know, we did an x ray, so you can, you can definitely fly home and have surgery at home. And they're like, however, you can't bend your leg for a certain number of time. And he's six four. So we're like, how are we gonna get our own row? Yeah, and they're like, well, we'll send a letter with you. But then the pandemic had happened, and so the plane was probably pretty there were only like 10 other people, wow, on the plane, and we were all wearing masks, and it was very like the hospital gave us masks to wear on the way home. Oh my gosh, yeah. It was pretty wild. And then he had to wait like, two months to have surgery because everything was closed. But, anyway, so. But that won't happen to you when you go to Hatcher pass listeners, because you're gonna be with Kier, and I'm not having that happen anyway, yeah, tangent. But that was kind of a funny you know, it was still absolutely beautiful, though we still are like, I bet it's not like, it tainted it or yeah, oh, good. It is always beautiful. Whether
Unknown:you're injured or not, I would say, yes.
Jennie Flaming:I remember Jay being like, Oh, it's so beautiful here. It's too bad I have to leave now. That's too bad. Anyway, cool. All right. Well, we're gonna take a short break, and then when we come back, we'll talk a little more about revel and a little more about how this can fit into a larger Alaska itinerary, so we'll be right back. Hey everyone. Jenny, here happy fall. This is the perfect time to get started planning your Alaska trip for next year. Most people wait until January, and then it's more stressful and harder. So you can do it then. But I just want to really encourage you to take some of those steps to get started with your plan for next summer, this fall, before the wild, busy holiday season and all that. So if you want some help. Sign up for one of my planning sessions. They're $47 they're really fun. I get to know you and give you personalized advice for how to plan your trip in the perfect itinerary for you. So sign up for one today. The. Link is in the show notes. And by the way, if you're planning a winter trip, you really need to get on that, and I can help you with that too, so hope to see you over there. Now, back to the show. All right, we are back with Kier Childers from rebel tours in Palmer, and we've been talking about some of the winter and summer tours that they offer, and a little bit about the Palmer community. So is there, what else do you want to tell us about, like revel itself and some of the other things that you do in Palmer with that? Yeah, of course. So
Kierre:in addition to all the trips that we offer for visitors, we also offer trips for locals that live in our area. That's a really big part of what we do. This is my sixth year in tourism in Alaska, and it's become a passion of mine. I think tourism does such a good job of working with folks that come up to visit. I really wanted a business that uses tourism to create opportunities for locals, and so we offer all kinds of monthly events. We do monthly Ladies Night outdoors. We do monthly hikes for 50 ish and over folks. We call those our season hikers. Oh, that's so fun. Yeah, we do community backpacking trips in the winter months. We offer a speaker series that's kind of educational for locals, and yeah, that those are all made possible by our visitor trips. So what our visitor trips do? A portion of revenue from those trips help offset the cost for events for our locals, so we're able to offer those to the community at a significantly discounted rate, which is pretty cool. That
Jennie Flaming:is really cool. Love it. So if you do a tour with revel, you're helping support like the local community deeper way, which is really cool. Yeah,
Kierre:this year we've hit 500 locals outside. Every year. It grows. Our first year was 50. Our second year, last year, we had 400 for the year. So this year, I don't know, we're at 500 now, so who knows what it'll look like by the end? Oh,
Jennie Flaming:that's so cool. Yeah. Love it. So Kier, can you talk a little bit about you know, a lot of people who are listening to this podcast, or people that I help plan their trips. A lot of them are, like, looking for unique and interesting places to like, add into their Alaska itinerary. You know, kind of like we talked about before with Palmer. So if someone is thinking about doing that, like, how many days do you feel like as a good amount of time to be there, and what are some other like, what types of itineraries Would that work well with? I mean, we already talked about if you were doing a winter trip, for example, but yeah, for summer trips, like, how much, how much time? And what else does it fit well with? Yeah,
Kierre:that's a that's such a good question. I would say it really depends on folks travel style, which
Jennie Flaming:is always part of, yes, that's always part of the puzzle, right? Is like, well, you How do you like to travel?
Kierre:So I think Palmer. You can make Palmer a stop in a couple different ways. One, a great way to do polymer if you have limited time, but you're interested in Palmer, if you could be staying in Anchorage and come out to Palmer for the day. Yeah. The benefit of that is that, you know, Anchorage has more lodging options, yes, and so, so that's a kind of plus there. And if you have limited time, I think you could do Palmer in a day and feel like you got a sense of it, yeah, if you're someone that likes to have more of, like a base camp set up, where you're kind of planted for a few days, and then you venture from your base to do different things. Palmer also makes a really great spot for that. Yep. So Palmer sits in the Matanuska sit in a valley. If folks know about that, it's it's a huge valley. We don't have counties in Alaska. We have boroughs, yeah. So the MatSu Borough is about the size of West Virginia, and it is a hub of all different kinds of activities. Palmer's in the mat su borough. So from Palmer, you can go, you can go hike on a glacier. You can go dog sledding. You can helicopter tour at the canic. You can hike. You can go learn about mining and Hatcher pass. You can go ATV riding up to the glacier, so you have all these different activity options, yeah, that are within an hour drive of Palmer. Yeah. So, so I think making Palmer your base, or even the valley as your base, is a great it's a great way to travel, if you kind of like that feel of sitting in a place for a few days and getting to do your adventures from there, yeah.
Jennie Flaming:And I think I would just add to that also kind of a little more off the beaten track. Yeah. You know, there aren't gonna be, there aren't as many lodging options. And the upside of that is that there aren't as many people totally,
Kierre:yeah. I mean, when you go out in Polymer, you definitely. Feel like you're hanging out with the locals, yeah, which is great for sure. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming:Um, I think it can be a really nice like thing to pair with Denali as well,
Kierre:totally. Or Talkeetna, I would say, Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:or anything on the Glen highway or the Richardson Highway, yeah,
Kierre:it on as much as it's off the beaten path, it's in a great spot to put you back on the path.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, right? Yeah. You can go north.
Kierre:If you're like, oh, I want to see Palmer before Denali, yeah, then that's great. But if you're, if you're going, let's say you're heading out to wrangle st Elias hit Palmer on your way east. Yes, and, and you'll have that those in either direction, those kinds of itineraries offer a great spread of, I think, really good things that Alaska has to offer on the road
Jennie Flaming:system. Totally. Yeah. I sometimes encourage people who are like, wanting to get off on their own or whatever, to do, like a loop from Anchorage over to Valdez and then back. And then you can easily add like, Ringo st Elias, oh, my God, or Fairbank. Or you could do it from Fairbanks, but it's longer, but like this would be a real Palmer. Would be a great place to add onto. Totally. Yep. Cool. Okay. Anything else that you want to say about revel or Palmer before we move on to couple other general questions.
Kierre:I I would just say we work really hard to connect to you, to our community. Yeah, that's really where we live here year round. Our guides live here in the area, and we know the people. And I mean, we don't know everybody. Well, you know a lot of people you know. So if you're like, you know, if we hear that, if you're out on a trip with us, and we learn that you love beer, well then we're gonna tell you where we gotta, we gotta go for beer. If you're like, I, I love farm to table style. Or what is, is that? What it's called, farm to table style, dining, yeah, you know, we'll tell you where you should go for that. If you're like, I, I absolutely love that getting to bridge people to things that they're passionate about. Yeah, and I feel like myself and the guides on the team, I think we're all really enthusiastic about that, and we want you to fall in love with where we live. I mean, it's an incredible spot, and so just know, you know that we work really hard to do that, and I don't think we're alone. I think Alaskans, we all really care so much that you fall in love with our state.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, I think that's really true. I totally agree about that. Okay, well, then I want to ask you, Kier, what I ask everybody who cooks on the podcasting which is, what is your favorite restaurant? Oh, god,
Kierre:it's getting more challenging to answer that. I would say because there are, there are new options in the valley in Palmer, my my go to is, is definitely Turkey red. So that I just, I know there's, I love the but it's like a butternut squash kind of salad, the sun salad that I eat there religiously. But I also want to plug, can I say another one? You can Okay, I want to plug in a newer business, a newer restaurant, to the scene in Palmer. And that is feather and flower. So they're doing, they're really doing the farm to table thing, cool, elegant way. They've renovated this 40s home in downtown Palmer. So you're eating in this house, and it just feels cozy and warm, and the presentation is beautiful and the food is delicious. And it's a young couple that, if I understand, right? They grew up in the area they left to go to the lower 48 for a while, and now they're back in their dreams to start this business. And that's so cool. And they're really, I mean, they're just crushing it, so
Jennie Flaming:that's awesome, yeah, okay, I gotta add that to my list. Restaurants to
Kierre:come to. You have, we have, yeah, with sledding, and we'll go eat. So we have a day plan? Yeah, yay. I
Jennie Flaming:can't wait. Awesome. Okay, so what is one thing that you wish visitors knew before they came to Alaska?
Kierre:I think, I think the struggle with Alaska is how large we are, yeah, and, and the tendency that I've noticed with folks visiting is feeling like you you have to cram it all in because you want to see all the things. Yeah. And
Jennie Flaming:I have you seen all the things? No?
Kierre:I mean, my list gets longer. I mean, like the Alaska dilemma, right? It's like, I'm not gonna see it all, yeah? So I think, I think people, when they're planning their Alaska trip, just build in time to pause, yeah, and to be flexible, and that that can come, that can go such a long way in making your experience wonderful, because part of kind. Here is just getting to see things on your own, and if you over schedule it, then you have no room to breathe. And I, and I feel like that it's very easy to do with Alaska, because you're, it's, there's just so much. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Jennie Flaming:That's really good advice. Thanks. Thank you. Well, Kier, thank you so much for joining me and talking about Palmer today. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jenny and I will put the info for revel in the show notes. So if you're interested in checking it out further, You can do it there.
Unknown:I appreciate that. Yeah, you
