Happy (Alaska) National Parks Week!

Jennie and Jay kick off a week of celebrating Alaska's National Parks and public lands with Jay sharing his experience growing up in the National Park Service and working in Alaska's National Parks and both share their advice about visiting them.

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Transcript

Jennie Flaming: 0:05

Welcome to the Alaska uncovered podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co host and full time husband, Jennie and I bring you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska, travel and life in Alaska, before we start today's show, we'd like to take a moment to thank our Patreon subscribers for your support and making this podcast possible. Enjoy the show.

Unknown: 0:37

Hello, everyone. Jennie here, Happy National Parks week. We are excited to celebrate US national parks week again this year, as we have for the last two years, and as I'm sure you know, you must know if you're interested in this topic at all, that our public lands and the people who are taking care of them are under a tremendous amount of threat and strain and stress right now. So I want to start this week by acknowledging that and just letting you know that this is a serious situation, and we are going to be talking about some of those things this week. So another thing that's kind of cool about national parks week 2025, here on the Alaska uncovered podcast is we are going to have daily podcasts just for this week. So we are not switching to daily podcasts long term, just to celebrate and bring attention to our national parks. So today's episode is a remastered version of our Alaska parks episode two years ago in April of 2023 and so in this episode, you know Jay and I share our experience and our advice and our thoughts about Alaska National Parks and travel there, and this is still really good advice. And listening to this episode again and re editing it, I really felt again, like even though this was recorded two years ago, how relevant it is. And one of the things that Jay talks about quite a bit in this episode is his experience working in the parks and with some of the unsung heroes and people who work behind the scenes, who you may not see but have a big impact on your parks experience if you didn't know. Jay was raised in the National Park Service. He was raised in Yellowstone National Park, and he also worked for many years as an adult, as an archeologist in the National Park Service. So he worked several seasons in Gates of the Arctic National Park. He also worked in the Seattle regional office on some other, more behind the scenes, kind of projects. So the other episodes we're going to have this week, we are going to talk a little bit about kind of what's going on and in national parks right now, how that may impact or not your trip this summer. And we're also going to be hearing from one of my former clients, who was on a parks quest to visit every national park in the US. And we are going to talk specifically about his national parks in Alaska experience. So I'm really excited to bring you that interview with Al later this week tomorrow. I'm also really excited to bring you an episode that is all about visiting all of Alaska's national parks, something that I know many of you are on a quest to do or are curious about doing, and I have a new workshop for you as well, so I'll introduce that tomorrow, along with that episode. So it's going to be an exciting week here. I'm looking forward to being in your ears every day this week. And I want to give you a brief recap of other episodes that we have of this podcast that are specifically about Alaska's national parks. And of course, there are many episodes where we talk about them, but these are the episodes that are very specifically about visiting parks. I'm going to give them to you in chronological order, starting with one of the very first episodes of the podcast, Episode Four on March 8, 2023 and that was about cat my now. National Park with Ranger Cara. That was a really fun episode. Next we've got March 22 2023 episode six, that was all about Glacier Bay National Park with Ranger Matt, and we covered so many fun things in that episode too, including what it's like to be a cruise ship Ranger. That was pretty fun. Then in May, May 17, 2023, Episode 14, we had an interview with Tom and Donna habecker, who are longtime friends of Jay's and mine, and Tom is a retired Ranger from Denali National Park. And that was one of our first story episodes where they really shared their story of what it was like to live in Denali National Park for many years, raise their children there and a variety of other things. Then on July 12, 2023 episode 22 that was with Ryan cross and we talked about climbing Denali in that episode, January 17, 2024 episode number 47 was all about visiting Denali National Park on your own. So most people visit Denali in groups, and so this one is very specifically about how to navigate that if you're going to visit Denali on your own. February, 21 2024, Episode 54 was about flight scene in Denali National Park. May 15. 2024, Episode 66 was about visiting Rangel st Elias National Park with Avery, who is a guide there. She also grew up there in McCarthy. So we talk about that as well. The next one is October 23 2024 that is episode 89 and that one is about taking a day trip to Lake Clark National Park from Anchorage. And that's largely based on my experience doing that this past fall, December 18, 2024 episode 97 that episode about visiting Denali while the road is closed, and whether or not that's worth it. So that's that episode. And then finally, march 18, 2025 so just about a month ago, Episode 111 is about visiting can tissue deep in denali's backcountry. At one point in this episode, Jay and I discuss the national parks in Alaska that we haven't been to yet, and I wanted to provide an update that in the last two years, Jay and I have each been to one new national park in Alaska. For him, that was Glacier Bay. We went together, but I had been before, and for me, it was Lake Clark. In today's episode, Jay and I are talking all about the national parks in Alaska. Jay and I actually met in an Alaska National Park, Klondike Gold Rush National Historic Park, which is in Skagway, which basically is the town of Skagway. And Jay has also worked in Gates the Arctic National Park as an archeologist for three seasons. He also grew up in Yellowstone, so he is a child of the National Park Service as well. Today, we're going to share about Alaska parks in general, some tips about visiting and about some of our personal favorite spots. So to start us off, Jay, can you share a little bit about your personal history with the National Park Service and the parks in Alaska that you've been to? Oh, I just realized this is my first experience as a guest on this show. How fun. Um, it is fun. Yeah, I actually feel a little bit more on on, like I have to perform a little better than when I'm just the occasional co host. So I would, I want to first say that, yes, I grew up in the National Park Service and in the National Park Service, I am what is called a park brat, which is a term for any child who was raised in the Park Service, and in particular, then went on to work at the Park Service themselves. And it's a, it's a kind of a term of endearment, but, you know, it has a little bit of a cutting edge to do it too. But yes, it's a small fraternity of us out there. But yeah, so when I was in elementary school, my folks moved into Yellowstone Park, and my dad was a truck driver and worked on the road crew and plowed snow, worked in May. Maintenance in Yellowstone. So I did live in the interior of Yellowstone in Grant Village, and we had to leave for the winters because there's no school there. It's only one other child under 18 in the whole area. So we would go out into Wyoming, and I would go to school. And then when I was in high school, my dad moved he I moved he eventually got a job in Mammoth that was year round, which is the north part of the park, and I graduated from high school up there, and I went up to Alaska. And eventually, after graduate school, I'd worked in the cruise industry and a bunch of other stuff. I ended up becoming an archeologist and working in the national parks up there, and then when we moved to Seattle, I then did a stint working for the regional office here in the Pacific West and worked in a bunch of parks out here. We should also add that when I was in high school, I did work in the visitor center in Yellowstone too. So I don't work for the park service now, but it has actually been about, I don't know, at least 10 years of my life that I worked directly for the park service. Yeah, that's a long time. That's a lot of history. It is. I don't even know how many years it's been, because I've worked so many stints in one of the things about a park service life is that getting a permanent, full time job is quite challenging. There's a lot of barriers to getting hired for that, but a lot of folks in the Park Service, the majority of park employees, work out their careers in lots of seasonal and temporary appointments. And so it becomes kind of a it's a flurry of leaves blowing by you. And you can be like, wait, wait, when, when? Where was I? Know, I worked in that park. When was that? What was my job there? What? And so, yeah, the majority of park employees are seasonals, and that was, that was me as well, until I worked here in the region. So how many parks have we visited together in Alaska? Because you've been to some I haven't. Yeah, so Okay, so I visited you when you were working in gates. So we've both been there, and we met in Skagway. So we both been there to Klondike Gold Rush National desert Park. We shared the coldest night of camping in my wife in Denali. Yes, real chilly. It was in April. It was kind of awesome. But also we had to go home at like five in the morning because it was so cold I totally remember. Yeah, so we've been to danelli together quite a few times, been to wrangle, seen a lot. Yeah, we also managed to ride along on a friend who won the lottery to drive up the road in your personal vehicle at the end of the year once. That was really fun. That was really fun. And we've been to wrangle st Elias together, yes. And we've been to Kenai Fjords together, yes. And Sitka National Historical Park. You have been to Glacier Bay? I never have, yeah, I have Glacier Bay is Glacier Bay is my favorite. It is. You're such a fan girl. I know, I know. I feel like I'm not a very good Park brat in that I've never been to several of the of the quintessential national parks I've never been to. But yeah, you've been to Katmai too, yes, and I've been to Katmai, I think neither of us have been to COVID Valley, and neither of us have been inside Lake Clark, no, but I believe we've been to all the others, plus many other national park units that don't necessarily have that National Park designation, which you're going to talk about in a few minutes. But I think that's all of them. Yeah, yeah. So Jay, speaking of that, can you tell us a little bit well, actually, before we get into that, I should mention that we have several other episodes of the Alaska uncovered podcast that are about specific national parks in Alaska. And today we're really talking, we will talk about some specifics, but we are talking about Alaska National Parks in general, which covers a lot of territory. But just to give you a sense, if you want to know more about Alaska National Parks and you're new to the podcast. In episode three, one of the topics we talked about in that episode was Denali, and specifically visiting Denali in 2023 there are some changes in. Denali because of the partial road closure. So that we talked about that. And Episode Four was about cat my, and all about bears, but also more than bears, all the other things that are cool about cat my. And episode six, we talked about Glacier Bay. And episode 10, which was just last week, was about Skagway, and we talked about the National Historical Park in Skagway. And then we also have an episode coming in a couple weeks, in three weeks, actually, that will be all about Denali. And then there are some other episodes coming that we have planned about parks. So those are that's just a little bit of an overview of what we've done and covered so far. So Jay, can you tell us a little bit about kind of public land in Alaska in general? Like, why is there so much federal land in Alaska? What places are the parks in Alaska? What? What is different about it, maybe from the lower 48 Yeah. So I mean, one of the things that I actually, that I miss about living in Alaska, living down in in the lower 48 now, is that two thirds of Alaska is managed by the federal government, and of the remaining 1/3 a big chunk of it is public land owned by the state. So there's a lot of open spaces to kind of have your, you know, a lot of freedom to explore and and stuff in it where, you know, the lower 48 is mostly privately owned, but it's kind of interesting. You know, Alaska, first of all, I should just say I'm not an expert on this topic, and so whatever I say, here is, it's for your entertainment value only. Yes, I know you're not specifically speaking as a representative of the Park Service or anything like that, just sharing your perspective. Yeah, I no longer work for the park service, but, you know, it's funny, I I know a little bit, but more probably mostly just enough to get myself in trouble with this. But this is what I know of. Alaska has a couple of older national parks, Glacier Bay and Denali, which were, you know, they're 100 year old parks and from the 1920s but most of the Alaska National park units were actually formed by a law passed in 1980 called anilka, the Alaska National Interest Land Claims Settlement Act. Oh, I think so. Anyway, it's anilka and a little bit by the 1971 law ANCSA, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. You know, Alaska was purchased from the Russian government, and a lot of its public land was not settled as to who owned it. You know, there were clear tribal indigenous claims on the land. There were a few private owners, but most of the land was was fairly unsettled and fairly inhospitable. So there wasn't a lot of really well established ownership outside of some of the gold fields. And so the legal nature of all that was still up in the air when people wanted to develop the petroleum resources on the North Slope. And so that was a big barrier to that. And in order to allow the oil pipeline to be built and that to happen. Those two laws were critical to settle who owned what pieces of land, and there's a lot of controversy and a lot of history in those two acts. You could spend your whole life studying those definitely, and still have room so but a lot of national park units were set up in that period of time. So Alaska also has some non National Park Public Lands. There's a big, a two big national forest, the Tongass and the Chugiak, and there's a bunch of wildlife refuges. Those are so national forests are managed by the National Forest Service, which is part of the Department of Agriculture, and then the department interior includes the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and they have some national wildlife refuges, but the majority are managed by the Park Service. And I want to bring up here, a really common misconception that I see on the internet in general. Jennie, you, I feel like we've you've seen a lot of these articles too, where someone lists like, what I don't even remember how many are named National Parks in Alaska or. Uh, in the list, there's eight, yeah, national parks, yeah, yeah. So, so here's the thing. In having worked and lived in the National Park Service almost my whole career, there are there's no real distinction between what is and isn't a national park within the National Park Service Unit, and that includes a lot of things that aren't named National Park. So I want to just take a moment to nerd out on public land types for a second. I think it is kind of relevant. And yeah, I hear folks who have, like, a bucket list, and they have like, I'm going to visit all the national parks. And then when I hear them listening, they're missing things that I think are really important. I realize it's because the name doesn't include National Park. I think of it like this, if someone was telling you the best peaks to climb in the country, and then you said, Oh, but what about Denali? Or what about Mount Rainier like? Well, those aren't peaks. Those are mounts. I'm talking about Pike's Peak, you know, like, those are just naming differences, and not necessarily they'll, they'll have something to do with the history of that mountain, and they might even tell you a little something about it. But they don't necessarily imply some sort of hierarchy, or that they're even, you know, they're all things we call mountains. So in in Alaska in particular, this gets a little complicated, but there are national historic areas, national monuments, national parks, national park and preserves, national preserves, but not National Park. So there's just a quick rattle off a list. There's the illusions national historic area, the Antioch National Monument, the Lagna and wild river Cape cruise National Monument, Denali National Park, Gates of the Arctic National Park and Preserve Glacier Bay National Park. Cat nine is a national park. United fjords is a national park. Klondike is a National Historic Park. COVID Valley is a national park. Lake Clark is a national park, and then there is no attack, National Preserve. Sitka, National Historic Park, Rangel and you come Charlie, National Preserve, the Park Service would consider all of those national parks. They would call them all parks, right? They wouldn't necessarily, in the end, the thing about national parks is each one that's a is created by its own act of Congress, except for national monuments, which I'll talk about in a second, but and those will govern a lot of the rules, like, what is being what is being called out as the exceptional thing about this area? What are we prioritizing? But they're all managed under the larger rubric, the National Park Service to preserve unimpeded for the the benefit, enjoyment of the people, you know, these areas, yeah, so I don't, I don't want people to miss and say, like, I want to go to these eight national parks, because those will be the best thing, and the other things, the other types of parks. A lot of times it just means that they came later. So the original national parks are, you know, 100 years ago, when the National Park Service was new, they were all just called National Parks. Pretty much as time went on, they got more creative with naming. So calling something a national, you know, historic landscape, or calling something a National Seashore, or that kind of thing was really a later development. The only distinction I want to make is that national monuments are are quite different. They are created by act of the president. They're the the Antiquities Act 1906 gives the the president the right to, with the stroke of a pen, create a national monument. It also means that they're a little more tenuous, because another president could take them away, so they're not written into law the way that all the other park units are. Yeah, sometimes national monuments can also be administered by another, you know, like National Mount St Helens is a national monument after the volcano, but it was a national forest before. So it's run by the National Forest Service. But almost all the national monuments are are managed by the National Parks. Yeah, so I know that's a lot about my management titles, but I just, I don't want people to think that, you know, the there's a only these eight great places, and the rest are second tiers. Yeah, I'm really glad you talked about that, Jay. So if, if I. Were to from someone who doesn't have the same deep knowledge about those structures that you do. Were to try to summarize that, or you give an example of it. Would it be like saying, for example, Gates of the Arctic National Park, which is does have that National Parks designation and as a place we've both been to, comparing that to something like UConn, Charlie Rivers National Preserve, which is another place we've been that's very remote and hard to get to, but it isn't any less interesting or unique, really. Then gates to the Arctic, and it's in a similar, I mean, it's very different, but also sort of in a similar part of interior, kind of this our sub Arctic, Arctic area with that, is that kind of getting at what you're saying. Maybe the best example might be cobak and no attack. So Kobuk Valley, yeah, National Preserve, very close to each other along the no attack. And Kobuk rivers there in the west part of the Brooks Range really remote places. I mean, really remote, no matter how back country you think you've ever been. This is, this is more so, yeah, but to be honest, there isn't really any, you know, COVID is a national park. No attack is a preserve. They're not that different, right? It's just, it's just a naming convention. It has politics and stuff. So I know that's a small thing, but it always, it always it always rankles me a little bit when I see that. I'm like, I feel like the some of the non named parks are getting disrespected, yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Like, what about no attack? No attack is so cool, yeah. And you know, some of these, like wild rivers and stuff too, are really quite amazing. So, yeah, I think that's that's probably enough detail about national parks and their names. Yeah, that's good, though. Thank you. I will just add before we move on. I mean, thinking especially about Skagway and Sitka that have national historic parks that we've both been to in Alaska and and those are some of the coolest things that some of the most wonderful places I've been to in Alaska, especially from like, a history kind of standpoint. I mean, they're just, they're both really different from each other, and super interesting. So definitely, if you're going to Sitka or Skyway, don't, don't miss those places that really cool. Yeah. Oh. That also reminds me that when I was mentioning the previous episodes of the podcast where we talked about parks in episode nine, which was just a couple weeks ago, in our episode with Scott McMurray, he talked quite a bit about Rangel st Elias in that episode, even though that's not the title of the episode. So I wanted to make sure to mention that also. Okay, so Jay, thinking about Alaska's national parks, I was thinking it'd be fun for us to talk a little bit about some of the things that make them really wonderful places to visit in Alaska. And of course, they're very different. Some of them are easier to get to you. Some of them are harder to get to. But what would you say in general, are some of the benefits of visiting a national park in Alaska? Well, I'm biased. I'm gonna say the National Park Service, yeah. And the reason I'm gonna say that is not just to butter up my former co workers. It's because I think the the National Park Service Alaska's public lands and Alaskan land in general, it's pretty difficult to visit, and the Park Service has done a really good job of providing some things that visitors really need without providing some that they don't. The National Park Service doesn't feel it's necessary to provide fudge shops, really. I feel like NPS fudge could be a really big hit. I'd buy it. I'm not gonna. Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of the things that that appear in visitor areas that aren't necessarily required are not necessarily but the Park Service has made sure that there are good maps, relatively good maps, of all the national parks, and information is available online@nps.gov and the really excellent new NPS app. Yeah, feel like that makes a big difference. And the Park Service has a mission about getting that information out there. So I think that's really and they're going to provide structured hiking. Hmm, what about you? What do you think? Well, I definitely agree with what you said about the resources and infrastructure of the Park Service, around giving, you know, really excellent information and being having that be their mission. Um, I would say that, in addition to that, you sort of mentioned, like having hiking trails and in there are some really amazing hikes in Alaska's national parks there, there's lots of space where there aren't hiking trails, but where there are those are some really wonderful trails, and hiking is free. So Alaska can be an expensive destination, and going for a hike in a national park doesn't cost anything, and that is pretty cool. Some Alaska parks charge an entrance fee, but many of them do not, actually. So even that barrier is not there for many parks. And I think the other thing is, if you are going to camp on your trip to Alaska, Alaska's national parks have some of the best tent camping situations in Alaska, if you're in an RV there are other places that are also pretty amazing. But when I think about the best places to pitch a tent in Alaska that I've personally experienced, they're nearly all in national parks. So those are, those are some of the other things that come come to mind? Yeah, I will say that the camping in national parks tends to be a bargain always, yep, cheaper than state parks nearby. Yes. You know, I feel like there that's a if you have an option to tent camp in the National Park, do it? Yes. So like, for example, in Katmai, the lodge, which you have to win a lottery to get into two years in advance, is $900 a night, and the campground is $12 a night. Just as an example of that, right, right, yeah. And also in Glacier Bay and Rangel st, Elias camping is free, so that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's not common, actually. No, it's not. I will say too that they're having worked in fee collections in national parks, I know that a lot of folks are frustrated at paying an admissions fee, or to come to the gate or for some of the fees, which is, again, as Jennie said, a lot of national parks don't charge any fee whatsoever. They actually have to get permission from Congress to do so. Most of that money does not go to the National Park Service. Actually, it goes into the general fund of the of the US government, and the fee, when you do pay one doesn't even come close to paying for the cost of most people's visit. So yeah, really, it is an amazing bargain, and I know that it still sucks to have to fork over some money at the gate, but you know, yeah. So yes, so let's talk about challenges a little bit. What are some of the biggest challenges from your perspective about visiting Alaska's parks? There are a lot, actually, yeah, you vary a tremendous amount based on the park itself. And this is one of the things that, like folks who are doing bucket lists visits, for example, they're like, I'm going to visit all the name national parks, and you want to go to cob like, oh, I only have two left. You could spend a majority of your summer getting to some of the Alaska National Parks, just basically, you know, getting there. So getting there is not always easy. Some of them, it's very easy. Actually, Denali is very easy to get to. You can drive there on the on the road system. You can take a train there, take a bus into the park. That's not too bad. Do you con Charlie? Not so easy. You can take a boat up the river from right Eagle. I guess I'm trying to think of even, or most likely, you would fly in on a float plane. Same with Gates of the Arctic, same with no attack cobac, really. Those are air dependent hiking to some of those parks from the nearest place you can get on commercial air service, for example, would take your whole whole season or more like it is not possible to do. So that's a challenge. Um, yeah, those are. A challenge that I don't want to underestimate. Some of the parks have a very short season where the snow is free and the the the Brooks Range. Northern Alaska parks can have a six or eight week snow free season, so that part of the season will also be when the mosquitos have to make their entire living, and the mosquitoes will be dense, yeah, absolutely. Like, if you think you know mosquitos, you do not, I working up there. Remember wiping over and over, wiping my head net with my gloved hands to be able to see my notebook to take notes. Yeah, no, there i i will say, Jay, that when I spent that week with you guys on your project in Gates, that that forever changed my perspective on bugs and what are bad bucks. So much. No, I've worked, I've worked in Everglades, and I'll tell you that it's nothing. Yeah, it was, it was intense, not to be, you know, they're, they're a serious, they're a serious barrier, and they're completely manageable. And you can make in most parks in Alaska, you can make a huge difference, based on when you visit, if you are not someone and they're not that bad everywhere, by any means, but there they can be. They can be a real, a real issue anywhere in Alaska. I mean, we had one of the weirdest nights of mosquitoes with our friends of ours at a campground near Anchorage, just out of nowhere. Yeah, that was also really bizarre, yeah. So, you know, it can, it can happen anywhere, and and an early freeze can make a glorious clearance of the skies. And so, you know, late season can be good, but you know, you're not going to want to try to try to visit some of these more remote parks during the late season for the mosquitos, because the door can close weather wise on you, and you could be shut out. So you know you're playing, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're way more of an expert than I am on the travel component. I mean, what do you think about the lodging expense, yeah, sides of it. What do you think? Do you have anything you want to add about that? Yeah, I definitely agree with everything that you said. I think despite what I said before about being able to find free or very inexpensive camping in Alaska National Parks, lodging that is not camping is real expensive in places like Denali and Seward, which is Near Kenai Fjords and king salmon, which is near cat my so that is, I think, a challenge. I think it's important for people to be prepared for that, for lodging to be very expensive, especially for what it is. So that's one thing. And I think you know, earlier, you were talking about how the National Park name is really just a naming convention, and from the perspective of an insider in the Park Service, that isn't necessarily different from a wild river or a National Preserve, but you know that I help people plan their trips to Alaska, and I've had several clients who were definitely wanting to go to the eight parks with the National Park designation to complete the list of 63 and I know there are way More, but you know from from my clients perspective, and I think the biggest challenge, especially for folks trying to go to a lot of remote parks in one trip, is it, it really makes the trip extremely complicated and very dependent on weather. So again, if that's something that you want to do as a traveler, just really think about giving yourself as much time as possible and lots of extra time in between parks to allow for things like weather delays, right? And I think what I heard you saying too about lodging is that if you're going to be a if you want to use lodging, like hotels, lodges, etc, you should make that plan far in advance. Yes, yes, I would say for national parks, except for Glacier Bay, you really need to be planning your trip. A. Year ahead of time Denali, like like, for example, we're, we are recording this in April of 2023, and there are some dates where there is still lodging available in Denali, especially if you drive there as opposed to taking the train, because you can stay a little further away from the park if you do that, um, but there are lots of days that are that are completely booked up or very close to that. So, um, yeah, I think planning and for these remote parks, you really need to plan a year in advance, or at least six to nine months, kind of the more remote, the earlier you need to plan, I think is what I would say. And after the break, we'll get back, we'll get into kind of which parks are the most remote, and and that kind of thing. But I think that's what I would say about the the challenges with planning. I just want to take a moment to say that I applaud anyone who has a goal of visiting all the national parks. I just want to add on that for extra credit you should think about including as many of the other 340 Yes, not named National Park in the National Park System? Yes, there's over 400 units, and some of them are absolutely mind blowing, and don't rule those out just because of their name. Totally agree with that. 63 name national parks is a really great life goal. Yes, I agree. I think it's really cool, and I sometimes think I would like to take it on too, but I haven't committed to that yet. A little bit about Park visitation numbers and sort of humans in national parks and and kind of what your perspective is on that. Yeah, I have unpopular opinions. Maybe, I don't know, but I do think there's no that's not exactly true. But I do want to take a moment to say first that I, first of all, am a huge proponent of wild lands, of wilderness, of protecting lands from development. But sometimes I hear that being taken in a direction that I think is a little bit disrespectful. And what I'm getting at about that is that all of this great wilderness in Alaska has a long, long human history, really long. Yeah, all the sites in North America, archeologically, are in Alaska's national parks. There are a number of sites 13, 14,000 years old up there. And you know, the oldest sites in North America are only a little bit older than that. So human history is quite long. And I've seen brochures and stuff that talk about, you know, come walk in a valley where the mountains have no names, and no one's ever walked before. And, yeah, that's just not true. There's a deep human history in this place. It just didn't leave condos. And, you know, I just want to throw out that. I think it's the idea of wilderness needs to not exclude the fact that humans were there and that they had an impact. You know, the folks who lived there intentionally used fire and their hunting techniques and stuff to make the landscape livable for them. And the landscape, like of Gates of the Arctic, for example, or for one is the humans have been living there since before the current biological regime. So black spruce have only been they're the most dominant tree in northern central Alaska, and they've only been around for about 5000 years. Humans have been living in those places, Swan point down in in the Tanana Valley. It's almost 15,000 years old. So you know, we're amazing. Yeah. Humans have been here three times longer there than the black spruce have been there. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's really deep, and it's hard sometimes to picture that people have been living on this landscape so long. I had the opportunity to work on a site near Delta Junction in Alaska, and you know, we were excavating these fires where and all these bones, and then suddenly we started getting into animals that have been extinct in North America. And it just blew my mind, like there were people here camping in this spot that were eating like camel and prehistoric antelope that don't exist on North America and haven't since, really, since the end of the ice ages. So I think that's just really cool. And I would love for people to include that in their appreciation of the wild land, and not as something the human history on a place like somehow corrupts it. You know, it's, yeah, it's really beautiful. Part of it. So that's one thing. Another one is another one of those sets of of I want to just take on for a moment. You'll see a lot of things on the internet where people talk about the most and least visited national parks, and your experience of other people while you're there may not track with what you see on those there's a couple of reasons. One, National Park visitation numbers are kind of funny. So a national park like Yellowstone, for example, has a pretty great number that people go through the gates, they count them. People leave, they count them. It's very like other national parks, like gate to the Arctic, have numbers. I don't remember what their visitation numbers say, but they count every person who drives on the whole road to Prudhoe Bay, most of whom never enter the park at all. So they count because they go through a visitor center area at the Yukon River Olympic National Park, for example, has also really difficult numbers. There's a Washington state has a there's a US one on one highway runs through it, and they count the folks who drive that highway as visiting the parks. You don't really know whether they did or not, so it's not quite the same. You know, they're not apples to apples. And so when you see numbers for a place like Gates of the Arctic, for example, they're actually a lot higher than what you would actually experience going there. So if you want and are looking for that really remote, distant thing, don't really pay attention to those numbers. They don't necessarily mean that much some parks that people are crowded into very small areas, and in every national park in the entire system, you can have solitude. You just need to step away. I would say Denali, we had great conversations with Donna and Tom habecker, which will be in a another episode. Yeah, three weeks, if they that episode will be live. And they really highlighted that if you get off the bus in Denali, you can have one of the most remote experiences you can imagine in your life, all within a very easy, secure way to experience it. And the same with gates. There is nothing like the realization that you are two or three weeks hike from another human being. And but then there's something like Glacier Bay. And Jennie, I haven't been there, I know you have, but you know the the main way to visit Glacier Bay is on board a cruise ship, which is not an isolated No, no. So the numbers there don't necessarily match up to your experience if you went there and camped. And what was your experience of camping? As far as well, there were two other people staying in the campground when I was there. So yeah, there. But what would you say about Katmai? About like, will you it's my impression is that you would be around a lot of other people all the time, because people are quite limited in where they go. Yeah, cat my was really different, say, from Glacier Bay, because there were lots of people camping in Katmai, I think there's 60 people that can be in the campground a night, um, and, yeah, in Glacier Bay, you know, people are a little more spread out, and there are just so few people like we talked about in the Glacier Bay episode, who are traveling there, not on a cruise ship. Um, you know, it's really just the other people staying at the lodge and in the campground that you see cat my is really busy with day trip visitors. Um, when I was there, it wasn't super busy, even though it was high season, because it was really foggy and a lot of the flights didn't a lot of the flights were canceled, but there was one day where it was it was raining, but it wasn't foggy, and the flights were able to get in. And yeah, there were times when you had to wait for a couple hours to go out on the platform to see the bears. So that definitely felt busy, even though it's really not that many people. So I think those things do kind of illustrate what you're talking about. Yeah, I think that's a that's anyway, that's just kind of all I wanted to say about that, I think, is just that, that if you are looking for solitude, it's there for you. It won't just back with just sorting by, you know, sort the list by visitation number, pick the lowest. Yeah, really, it is a choose your own adventure as to how much or how little human contact you want while you're there. Yes. So you mentioned hiking, and I, you know, I'm not a hiker. I'm always quite open about, hi. Yeah, I hike for money, but I think hiking is obviously a way to get you know, in Yellowstone, we used to say if you go 100 yards off the road, you will drop 90% of the people. Yeah, I definitely think that's even more so in Alaska. So it's a great way to find solitude. If you want what do you think the best hike is in Alaska National Park? Okay, it's a that's a really tough question to answer, because I'm just gonna say Jay said he's not a hiker unless he's getting paid. I can vouch that's totally true. I, however, am a hiker, and if you're a hiker, you've got to do a hike in an Alaskan National Park. It's just fantastic on your trip. So I'm going to say the Harding ice field trail in Kenai Fjords National Park, which is near Seward. It is a really hard hike, really hard, but you don't have to go all the way to the end to see the amazing views. So I think the views are what make that hike truly spectacular. I don't think it's worth it if you can't see the view. It doesn't have to be perfect weather, but there does have to be good visibility. So I think that would be my answer. I'm going to show my ignorance for a moment here. What about Portage past? That's one of my favorites, because that's probably in the forest, isn't it? Yeah, it's in Chicago forest, but it is an awesome hike, and it's not as difficult as partying ice field. Totally. Okay, so while we're on the the superlatives of yes Alaska National Parks, yes, what do you think is the best Visitor Center in Alaska National Park? Well, going back to what you said earlier, Jay Park Service does a really good job of sharing information and doing and doing interpretation. I mean, that's part of what they do. So I've never been to a I've been to bad visitor centers, but not in Alaska. All the ones I've been to there are amazing. Some of them are really tiny and, like, kind of right next to the airport, like the one in king salmon for Katmai, and the other Park Service lands around king salmon. But that's just because of the remote location. It's still pretty amazing what they did with, like a tiny little corner of an airplane hangar, basically. So they're all really good, but I think I'm gonna have two answers for this one. One is kind of sassy, but the Rangel st Elias National Park Visitor Center that is located along the Richardson Highway in copper center is not only an excellent Visitor Center, but it also has the best bathrooms along the Richardson Highway. So I feel like it needs to get some props for that minor thing. Aside from that, I think I would really encourage you to if you're going to Alaska, to go to one of the public lands information centers. There's four of them in Alaska. There's one in toke along the Alaska Highway, one in Ketchikan, which is a great one to go to if you're on a cruise, and one in downtown Anchorage, and one in downtown Fairbanks. And even though they are not in national parks. They really get at all of these things Jay has been talking about around like public land in Alaska in general, and they're good visitor centers, and they have lots of free maps and lots of great information. So they're just a fantastic visitor resource for pretty much anyone. Yes, I am really glad you gave them a shout out. The public info centers are unsung heroes for sure, and totally under utilized as resources, in my opinion. Yes, you're a map geek, which I am, definitively a map geek, same amazing files of maps and spread them out on a table and, like, lay out. And it's pretty beautiful. It warms my heart to spread out like 20 topo maps. Yeah, super fun. One cool thing about it too is that they can kind of help guide you. There are certain types of land use that are not appropriate for national parks. You know, hunting is generally not allowed in Indian National Park property, right? And you know, if you're a hunter or if you want to go for, you know, riding dirt bikes or four wheelers or that kind of thing, National Parks are not really where you want to go and riding stock horseback. Is, is or is not, depending on the national park acceptable, and they can really help guide you and say like, oh, what you want to do would be best suited to this. You know, State Park. A lot of national parks have a state park ring around them. Yep, a lot of times that land is much more open, rule wise, for better or for worse, and Denali is definitely that way. Yeah. Well, depending on what you want to do the public lands info people can really help guide you, you know, and all the people that I've met at a public lands Info Center have been rock stars. Just great. Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. Okay, so what do you think is the best tour, as opposed to a hike or a visitor center? But like a best, the best package tour from from a park vendor in a national park? This is a very easy one. It would be the day boat tour in Glacier Bay National Park. It's just absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, that's cool. I want to give a shout out to the cheapest tour in a national park, the Denali bus system. Okay, the Denali bus system is also really cool, and it would be my number two is any trip into Denali on a bus, but the Glacier Bay day boat takes the edge for me. But I totally agree with you about Denali. It's also very cool. I'll just, I'm just saying that the cost is, yes, it's very affordable, yeah. And by the way, if, since you gave me an opening to talk about the Denali bus tour, whether you take the narrated tour or the bus, the hiker bus, the like, hop on, hop off, transit bus, if you are going to Denali, do not skip the bus tour because you Think you don't want to go on a bus. And also make sure you listen to the episode we have coming up with Tom and Donna in three weeks about Denali. If you're not, if I'm not convincing you, that is the way to get away from it all in Denali. And you absolutely have to do it when you're there. If you're into national parks at all. You should listen to that episode, because Tom, first of all, he's just written a memoir, book that you should read. And also, he is an OG, the real deal career Ranger. He's a, yeah, he's a great resource. We were really lucky to get them on. Mostly talk to them because Jennie and Donna worked together as school counselor. Yes? So we, we're cashing in that particular chip. Yeah. Okay, well, I am also going to throw out for a I'm just going to say that I want to give a shout out to Brooks Range aviation in battles. No business interests or relationship with us, but their tour fly into near the air gets peaks into Gates of the Arctic, will explode your frontal lobe as far yes, that beautiful landscape and rugged could look like. So I'm going to give a shout out to that. But it is not cheap, and it is very remote. Just getting to battles itself is kind of a process. So yes, but I just want to give those guys a shout out, because they do an amazing job. Yes, and that would be a flight scene tour of Gates of the Arctic, correct? Yeah. So, okay, last superlative I'm going to ask you I think best campsite, okay, in a national park in Alaska, park in Alaska? Yes, okay, I am going to allow, since this is the last question, I'm going to allow myself three answers. So they have they're good for different reasons. So first of all, probably the best campsite anywhere in Alaska's national parks is definitely jumbo Creek in rainbow or Rainbow Range. What range Elias National Park. Now this campsite is a hassle to get to, so that's why I'm not going to give it as my only answer. It is It looks like a campground when you read about it on the internet, but it is not. It is a back country camp. It's about two miles from Kennecott, so to get there, you have to drive or fly to McCarthy, then you have to get a ride out to Kennecott, get a back country permit, and then hike for two miles. But once you do that, it's this beautiful location with an amazing view of the Rangel mountains and the root glacier. So. So it's super cool, if you can make that happen. And then my other answer, that's a little out there, would be the Bartlett Cove campground in Glacier Bay. And it's kind of an amazing campground, because not only is it free, but they provide water, bear proof, storage you can pay to take a shower in the lodge. You can do your laundry in the lodge, and also when you're in your tent at night, if you're super lucky, you might hear whales like breathing in Bartlett Cove. And that is just really amazing. I don't really have words for what that's like. And hearing birds call and like, you know, other sea other marine mammals splashing around out there, it's really cool. But that's also hard to get to. So to answer your question, Jay, for one that is easier to get to, I'm going to say the savage river campground in Denali. You can drive to it, and I feel like one drive in, one has to be on the list here. It's a really nice alternative to Riley Creek, which is at the park entrance. It's much quieter and smaller, and it's right next to the savage river. And there is a beautiful hike you can do there, especially in the evening, in the morning, the light there is just stunning. So absolutely, that's going to be probably my real, real answer, yeah. And I feel like that savage river one is also, it has, it just has a different feel than Riley Creek, which, yes, yep, and Riley Creek is also great, but savage river is just a really special place. I think river opens and closes 10 jet tends to be open and closed, later and earlier respectively. Riley Creek is, is broader available. Yes, that's true. Yeah, smaller for it, but the sites are and the sites are less developed. And I like that. I'm an off trail hiker and an off site camper, so I like, Yeah, but if you, you know, want, like, a perfectly groomed spot for your tent or whatever, it's not necessarily as good, but it is a spectacular campground. Yeah, yes, definitely, those are pretty good answers. I'll let you I'll let you go with that. Thank you. So as we move towards wrapping up this episode, you know, Jay, a few minutes ago, you were talking about the importance of the human experience in the national parks, and that these vast, stunning wilderness landscapes have also been home to humans for 1000s of years. And in addition to humans who have lived in Alaska's parks for 1000s of years, there are also lots of humans who live in Alaska's parks now and live and work there. So could you tell us just a little bit about some of the types of jobs people have in national parks that might not be visible to a visitor, in the same way that say Rangers are visible. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of cachet with being a ranger and and I want to give full props to those Rangers out there. There's kind of two wings of people that we would generally hear people refer to as a ranger. One is a law enforcement officer inside the park service. Generally, that's what people mean. If they just say Ranger, that's a person who has a law enforcement credential. They're a badged law enforcement officer. They will be carrying a weapon. They'll have a they'll have training from the federal government in law enforcement. And then there's the Ranger, naturalist, which is the person who's often working at a visitor center desk or or leading hikes, that kind of stuff. That's an interpretive ranger or a ranger naturalist, but two thirds of the people in the National Park Service Work in maintenance. It's and it's the unsung. They're the unsung heroes, in my opinion, and then I'm biased, because my father was a career long maintenance worker in a national park. But these guys work, you know, and gals, they work hard. Their pay is actually generally fairly low. They, you know, you get the joke is always you get paid in sunsets. And a lot of folks are seasonal workers, and then they have to put together work in their off parts of the year. And you know, that's that's a lot of the real work that gets done is by these folks. And if you're a person who has seasonal availability, think about it. It's a great way to serve the country and be in a beautiful place. And. And the environment of national park employees, I like a lot. And I think when, if you listen to Donna and Tom's interview in a few weeks, you'll get a better feel for it. And you know, they can be a little bit like a small family in the better and the worst ways, but, but, you know, folks are are driving trucks and cleaning the campgrounds and collecting money and dispatch operators and fixing roads, cutting trees that are about to fall on camps, like all that kind of stuff. There's just a lot of work that has to be done in a national park, and it goes, it goes kind of unnoticed. It's always a running joke that, like, people will want to add ranger to their titles for the for the public recognition, like, you know, I'm a garbage Ranger. Yeah, I want to also add in just the sheer number of scientists. It's a huge mission of the National Park Service to understand the national parks better. And you know ornithologists and and you know everything from the trees to the birds to the archeological history, all this stuff, there are scientists in all the in the national parks who are doing amazing research, in a fairly hidden way, really. So just, I'd love, you know, if you when you see stuff in the national parks, you know, just remember, there are a lot of folks back there making it happen for you. And and they, they love it, they love their work. And but it's good for you to to notice them. I think sometimes, yes, absolutely, so speaking of noticing and thinking people who have served in the National Park Service, to bring this episode to a close, Jay and I want to honor during this national parks week, the friends and family that we know personally who have served in the National Park Service, and a few of these people are Rangers, most of them have worked. Most of them are people who've worked in maintenance or in administration, or are scientists, or have been scientists for the National Park Service, yeah, and we're, yeah, I would love to to, and I, if I miss anyone, it's not intentional. It's, I'm, I'm just sometimes kind of scatterbrained. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna list off some folks that that come to mind. Matt enderly, he was just on, well, he will have his his episodes already played, right? Yeah. Glacier Bay, I'm and Donna habecker, who will be on soon, Dan Otis, who is in DC serving, and that is the most unsung service in the National Park Service to work in the DC offices. So unsung. Thank you, Dan for all you do. And you know, maybe we'll have to get him on the podcast sometime too. Yeah, I think so. Holly O'Dell, she'll also be on the podcast sometime. Jeff RAC and Julie isdale, great archeologists up in Fairbanks. Natasha slobodina, who has an absolute rugged woman of the wild and archeologist, Aaron Wilson, Andy Tremaine, Christina Jenson, who died in the field and 20 years ago, almost now, Adam bird, Kirsty Hertel, my my last boss in the National Park Service, and fellow Park Brad, I want to say she comes from a distinguished line of National Park Service heroes and and last but not least, George Monroe, who was my, sort of, my coach and and role model when I was a Young Jay. He was the boat ranger in Yellowstone, and it really meant a lot to me. So you want to thank all folks for the service. They do it. And finally, Jay's family, Jay's parents, Ray and Mary, who raised him in the Park Service, and Jay's sister, Julie and Jay himself, both Julie and Jay have both worked for the National Park Service for many seasons as adults. Thank you so much to all of you for your service to our country, and thanks to all of you out there for listening to Alaska uncovered. If you like what you heard today, we would love to have you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any new episodes. You.