Going Deeper in Denali with Patrice and Justin La Vigne

Long time Healy residents as well as guides, educators, writers and Airbnb cleaners Patrice and Justin La Vigne sit down with Jennie to talk about the best of Denali, how you should spend your time, and how to go deeper with this magical park.

Read more about living and working in Denali on Patrice's blog. And if you are looking for a yurt to rent in Denali during your vacation, also check out this website: wanderinglavignes.com

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co-host and full-time husband, Jay, and I bring you accurate, helpful, and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and life in Alaska. Today, I wanted to thank our Patreon members, the members of the Alaska Uncovered Planning Club on Patreon. We're so grateful for your support and you can join them and get your questions answered by me. Every single week, all year long, even during the tour season patreon.com/alaska uncovered. The link is also in the show notes. Enjoy the show. . My guests today are Patrice and Justin La Vigne, and they are long-term residents of Healy and even longer Alaskans, and like many folks who live in rural parts of Alaska. They have a lot of different jobs to piece together a living, everything from being educators and guides, to cleaning, Airbnbs, to travel, riding so many different things. And even though if you're thinking like, whoa, where is heal? It's very close to Denali National Park, which is what we're talking about today. So Patrice and Justin, thanks so much for being here. Welcome to Alaska Uncovered. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. Looking forward to this. Yeah. So let's start with telling everybody how you got to Alaska. Justin, let's start with you. Sure. I was living in Phoenix, Arizona, going to Arizona State, and, I was looking to do a research project and my specialization, I was doing my master's was in, , like park education, um, interpretation. So I was accepted to do a project in Denali National Park in Kantishna. And, um. I just met Patrice a couple months prior to that and I said, Hey, I'm going up to Alaska. I said, I don't even know where it is, but I'm hopped in my car, made my way across the United States all the way through Canada, and pulled up to the front country of Denali National Park, parked my car, hopped in a plane and went back to Kantishna, and that's where I kind of started. I did some research. For a private lodge back there as well as being a guide. And then my research got adapted into the park service where the park was very interested in what I was doing. And what I was doing is, , making maps of the back country, kind of designating where trails were, and not so much hiking trails, but more social trails from animals and caribou and like old mining cabins and stuff like that. And kind of just setting up an interpretive system for one of these private lodges back there. So I spent, you know, a couple months back in Kantishna. And of course, as it happens to every single person here, when you come to Alaska, you fall in love with Alaska and you don't wanna leave. And I called Patrice and said, I found some land in Talkeetna let's, let's buy it. And she said, what? Are you kidding me? I just met you months ago. We just started dating. We're we're not buying land in Talkeetna. What are you talking about? But she came up and visited and she got a little twinkle in her eye. So that's how the Alaska story kind of started. And then over years we'd come up, um, for vacation. I like climbing, so I'd come up and climb a little bit. And then in, what year was it? 2018. 18, uh, we were hired by a nonprofit called the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics. And we were hired to go to some national parks and to preach, something called the Zero Landfill Initiative and educate people about this. And we were like, well, we're curious what National Parks? And they said, well, it's the Grand Tetons Yosemite and this place called Denali. And we are like, we're in. And so we did that for a couple years. That worked out. Yeah, it certainly did. And that really kind of introduced us to the community of Healy and Denali and Cantwell and the Village. And we really got immersed in this whole life of Alaska and educating not just, visitors to the park, but educating, staff as well as the local community. And so we did that for a couple years and did a loop around the country. We drove from the Tetons to Denali to Yosemite, and kind of did that. Yeah. Love it. Okay, thanks Justin. I feel like that sort of, oh, something happened and then I stayed is um, theme. Definitely. All right, so we got a little bit of how you got there, Patrice, but tell us from your perspective. Sure thing. I mean, when Justin said, you know, he was in grad school and we were living in Arizona, that was 2003. So you know, when he told me how much he fell in love with Alaska, it's like, well, I think, I hope that you loved me more because I'm not going to the middle of nowhere, Alaska. And like he said, I came up, I visited, of course, I loved it. I just couldn't picture. Living there at that time. So it took a bit of convincing over, I don't know, you know, 15 years. But like he said, that project for Leave No trace in 2018, that pretty much sealed the deal. When we came up here that summer to work, I, I thought to myself, you know what, actually I am ready. And so that following summer when we came up in 2019 to work again for the Zero Landfill Initiative project, that I said, okay, let's do it. Let's find a place to live. Here and, and try this out live year round. I have to say that prior to that, for about 10 years, we were living and working on the road. Yeah., Not just for leave, no trace, but for a few other projects. So we were kind of like living in and out of a van. We were doing some property caretaking around the country, so we were in all different parts and I, we had lived by that point, I think in 10 different states together. So. I was pretty sure, Hey, I'm ready to settle down, to get out of this nomadic life. Yeah. And why not settle in a cabin in Alaska in winter where, you know, I can like quiet my mind and get a, become a homebody. And that's exactly pretty much what happened. We got pretty lucky, , buying property in. The Denali area is not for the faint of heart. , It's sort of word of mouth. There are no realtors, so we just knew a person who knew a person who knew a person, and we were able to snag a small cabin. And we spent our first, winter living in Alaska in 2019. We moved up here in October and, haven't really left except for travel. Yes, so listeners, Healy is considered interior Alaska, like it's just north of the park entrance on kind of the Fairbank side, and Interior Alaska has just experienced their coldest winter. Ever. Not like, oh, the coldest in a long time. No. Ever since records have been capped for like over a hundred years. So maybe in 1860 it was colder, who knows? But, um, that's. It it this way, you got through this winter, so I think you're good. I like to tell people every year that I survive a winter, I'm like, well, this is my seventh winter that I've survived. Yes, yes. Well done. Well done. Okay, so today, you know, listeners, we have other episodes, many episodes where we've talked about Denali, of course. 'cause it's such an important place in Alaska., I just wanted to point you back to a couple of. Older episodes before we dive into what we're talking about today. So when Justin mentioned. Coming up to spend, um, some time doing research in Kantishna. We have an episode about Kantishna, um, and it's from March, 2025. It's episode 111. And then also we have an episode that goes really in depth about, uh, kind of logistics of visiting the park on your own if you're not, um, with a tour group. And that was in January of 2024. Episode 47. And then also one of our very first episodes is episode 14. Um, in May, 2023 was with Jays and my friends Tom and Donna, who are retired from the park service in. In Denali. So there's many other episodes as well, but I just wanted to call those out as ones that you might wanna listen to if you enjoy this one. So today we're really talking about this place. Towards the end, we are gonna touch on some logistics because nobody knows how to visit a place like an Airbnb cleaner. I promise you that. Um, so we will come back to that towards the end. But for now, I know that both of you love Alaska, but you also love and have been to many national parks. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, what, how is Denali different from other national parks? Let's start there. Do you wanna start Justin? Sure. So yeah, Patrice and I, we love national parks and we love road tripping, and we've driven across the United States, I don't know, we estimate 30 or 40 times. We've driven back and forth to Alaska several times and, and we'd like to seek out these places that are very least visited. And a lot of our national parks are not that well visited. And so of the 64 parks, we've been to 60, , and we've explored them. A lot. And when I came up to Denali, that's what drew me in is this park and the vastness of this park and the beauty, and really the lack of crowds because Denali National Park is a park where it's kind of like on a bus in a car, you're not getting out and really exploring it. So. When we lead hikes, and sometimes we do lead hikes into the park. It's not like Yosemite or Yellowstone or the Tetons. It's, it's not crowded like that. And so really even in the middle of summer, you're gonna see five or 10 people out there on the trail. If you go into the back country. There are no trails, you're going to see nobody. And so I think what we love about this park is just the very open space. We love that Healy is literally in the backyard of the park. So Healy, if you look at a map, is kind of carved into the park and we can walk from our cabin and go into the park. Of course, we have to climb a little mountain, but we can go into the park and, we think as locals, the park is crowded. In the summer, it's really not that crowded, but in the winter, yeah, we're the only ones. Only ones in the park. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I'm glad you talked about that, Justin. 'cause I think because Denali is on the road system, people tend to think it's going going to be more like. Visiting a park in the lower 48, which it, which it really isn't. , It's kind of deceptive that you can drive there, you can drive there, you can drive any car there, but , that's not really how you get in there. So, I think that's something that kind of throws people. Is there like expectations versus what it's actually like? Patrice, what, what do you wanna add about kind of what makes this park different and unique? Yeah, for sure. I feel like you know, a lot of parks have a central station that you're gonna drive up to the park and have a ranger station that you have to stop at. Before you enter the park, and Denali is not like that. You know, we have a visitor center that's open year round. We have a summer visitor center and a winter visitor center. And, but you physically have to come into the visitor center, um, in order to talk to a ranger. And so people don't realize that the park is just open all the time. It's not something that you have to actually speak to somebody. And that has benefits and disadvantages because if. Visitor is not connecting with the Ranger. They might not really understand. Some of, you know the safety protocols that come with a wild place like Denali. And another thing to point out is that I love to tell people is just how big Denali is. I mean, it's the size of Massachusetts and. With one road that goes in and out, and again, that one road, you as a private visitor can only drive your car to mile 15 no matter what is going on. And that is the hard part because you can't get deeper into the park unless you're on a bus tour. I, for one, appreciate that the park set up these. Protocols early on. I mean, it was back in the eighties that they started the bus system. And so it really does alleviate having all of these big crowds, you're not gonna have this like traffic lineup of people going in and out of the park, , because they have this good system with the, the tour buses. Yeah. That are very controlled. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, you both know that I, I work as a tour director and bring a lot of people to Denali and, um, both that and clients that I have during the winter where I'm helping them plan their trips. No one thinks that they want to take a bus tour in Denali. Nobody thinks that, right? They're all like, oh, I, I wanna find another way. Well, I'll, I wanna figure out how I can drive. It's like, no, this is how you see this park. And it's so interesting because after people have this experience, they almost always are like, okay, that was really cool. You know, like that. It was sort of me and my. 25, 35, 40 friends, , we were on this bus and we were it in this. Massive wilderness. And you know, there are people who are like, oh, I thought animals would be closer, whatever. But for the most part, people are like, after they do it, they really get it. Um, that like, oh, this is actually a really cool way to protect this place. And for us humans, a pretty cool way to see it actually, you know, once you get out there and, and do it. So I know. Probably most people listening to this episode, I'm gonna guess already know that Denali National Park has a very high mountain in it called Denali. Um, but I would, so I think people know that. One thing that makes me a little sad is if people are. Like kind of their only concern with visiting Denali is whether or not they will see the mountain, which, you know, sometimes you see the mountain, but a lot of times you don't. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the, the rest of the landscape and also kind of the animals and plants that people see in the park. 'cause from my perspective. Like Denali is such a unique landscape, and if you're just obsessing over whether or not you see the mountain, you can, you can miss that. So let's talk about that a little bit. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about the, the landscape first. Yeah. And, and then what I would say, kind of stepping back to the bus thing here is that we get the question from all of our friends and family, as well as all these guests that we're taking on hikes. Should we really take this bus tour? Is it really worth it? I don't be crammed at a bus. And we say, that's at the top of our list. Yeah. And what we kind of think of this bus tour, we kind of think this as. Every reverse park like we are the spectators, these animals, this is their land. So yeah, this bus tour can be completely different. And I'll do a hike with guests where someone went at 10 in the morning and someone went at noon and they saw completely different things. Yeah. And that's it. It's, it's this landscape that could just blow you away from Yeah. Mountains that look like they're Denali and you're looking at it and like that is Denali. And be like, no, I'm sorry. Do this. That's Denali way up there. You gotta tilt your head back. And that's what Patrice had to do when she first came up here in 2003 when she's looking at the mountains. I said, no, you have to put your head up higher and look higher. That's it. It doesn't look real. And yeah, so the expectation is I wanna see this mountain. What we tell people, unfortunately, it's really hard to see Denali. From Denali National Park. It's, and, and you know this as a tour guide, the best opportunities are north and south of the park. Yeah. Yes. If you do the bus tour, there are opportunities. Yes. But I, I think Alaska is, or Denali is more than just this high mountain. Yes. The High Mountain is certainly a centerpiece. But these animals from moose to bears to the tiny animals like wood frogs or insects like mosquitoes or these abundance of 175 different types of wildflowers that you only get to see for like a month. Yeah, it's, it's just astonishing that each day we do a hike and there's something new. Yes. That's so true. Yeah. Yeah. If I could kind of just piggyback on what Justin just said, that's what I love about this park is that, you know, we have this short summer season, but every day is a different day in terms of what you're gonna experience. We're lucky enough to have these sort of, these different ecosystems. In one park, where you're starting in the front of the park and it's very forested and, and really, it's very easy to be a God here 'cause there's only eight trees so you can, you know, you can kind of see all those trees. Um, and, but then we have this abundance of wildflowers. So, you know, hundreds of different wildflowers, but they bloom. At different times during our short summer season. Yeah. So if I'm going on a hike on Monday and taking guests out on Friday, there could be different wildflowers out. Yeah. It just, it's just like this. Short season where things will pop up and be very different. And then, you know, as you drive into the park, you're experiencing where the trees get shorter and all of a sudden they're spread out and we're in the Taiga, which is another system, and then we're in the hundred where there aren't any trees and that is just, RA is something. Most people, at least across America, don't have tundra. They don't have this treeless landscape. And so that in itself is extremely exciting because you just are just like, how? How does this exist? And so I feel like that the landscape is so unique. And I tell people all the time, like the reason I love guiding on, you know, these walks taking people out there is because I love land. Snorkeling is what I call it. I love That's awesome. Looking at these tiny details, you know, whether it is a wildflower or whether it's just. The nonvascular plants, like these mosses, these lichens. And then of course, you know, we have mushrooms that come out that in, in August and September. So again, this season is very different, um, in, in short three months. Mm-hmm. You have a little bit of everything that if you stop to smell the roses quite literally than you're going to see these details in this little patch of earth that you would never see back home. Yeah, totally. I love the like really dramatic lighting in Denali too and how like the weather changes so fast, which can be a little frustrating 'cause what you're experiencing now has like nothing to do with an hour from now or 10 miles from now. But it's also makes it so dynamic and. You know, I, I've been on the, the bus tour with people who are like, did, is this the way that we came in? We like, for sure. And I was like, but it looks that mountain wasn't there before. It's like, well. Yeah. Or wasn't there a mountain there before? Yeah, there was. Or isn't this where we sat Denali? It was. It's not there now. Um, yeah. So it is such a unique place. Okay. So listeners, we Oh, go ahead. We do tell people, I'm sorry. We do tell people about the weather. If you don't like it, you just wait 10 minutes, it's gonna change. And when we pick up people at their hotels and they're like, or we call 'em and say, we're gonna go for a hike. Well, it's raining. Well, it might be raining in the canyon, but it's not raining in Healy or South of it. Yeah. And like, yeah. Literally, there's been tons of times where I said, let's just drive 10 minutes north or south and I guarantee you it's gonna be beautiful or Yeah. You know, so the weather changes on the dime, and Patrice is just obsessed with weather. We have, I don't know, ooh, three weather stations at our house on our property. So she is like a weather dial person in each. Her presentations include everything about weather. It's great. Yes, yes. You know, that is so true. That's really true for flight scene too, because I've had guest queue, like booked a flight scene tour and we're waiting for them to come pick them up and it's raining and they're, well, first of all, raining doesn't interfere with flight scene necessarily unless there's a visibility problem. But, um, you know, I was like, they, they would call me if this flight wasn't gonna happen, you know, if you weren't gonna see anything. They would let us know and they haven't. And then, you know, sometimes they'll give the guests an option to cancel. Now it depends on the company and whatever, but I always tell 'em, I'm like, no, no, just go. 'cause it's gonna be so cool. And then it always is. 'cause when you're in the air, you can go to a different weather system and like 10 minutes, you know, and be like, oh, we don't like it over here. Yeah, let's go to the other side. Yeah. Yeah, we for sure. I mean, that's. That's what I love about, like with the flight, seeing that's a perfect example. That is a completely different way to see the park, you know, versus like if you don't want to be on a crowded, quote unquote bus and sitting on a bus for several hours, you know, going on a flight is a, a different perspective. I mean, yeah, doing all of it is a different perspective, whether you're walking, taking a bus or taking a flight. Yeah. When you're on a flight, you can really see those micro climates that we have. Yeah. You know, and you can see that it change, you know, even if it is raining or cloudy, like you're still getting through the clouds. And that's amazing to see these like, you know, these clouds over this mountain, but not that mountain. Yes. Yes. And I would, I would suggest with, you know, the, when stepping back and talking about seeing Denali, I came here to see Denali. And yes, it is difficult to see it from the park. And if you don't see it from north or south, these flighting tours do afford you an opportunity. Yeah. And these companies are really good. So if it's raining in the front country and they're still leaving, that's means. It's very beautiful back there. Yeah. And vice versa. So really you, it's very rare that you're not gonna see some portion of the mountain when you do this flighting tours. Yes. Or see base camp or climbers or something like that. Yeah, it, it's it, and I know it's so expensive, but again, like the bus, when our friends and family come. That's one of the things at top of our list. Yes, yes. It's worth the $500 to do a flight scene tour. It is. You know, it is. I completely agree. Yeah. And I should, I realize when I was talking about it before, I should clarify that if it's not safe to fly, then obviously they don't. But it's not only that, it's also like, are you gonna have a good. Experience and Denali's flight scene companies are great at that. Okay, so listeners, um, Patrice and I in particular have like these sort of inner overlapping lives and jobs. , We're both travel writers in different ways. We both have been or are guides in different ways. And,, one of the tours that I do includes. In Alaska Geographic presentation, um, when we're in the park and it's, it's not the, the experience that we do is not something that's open to the public. It's something that the tour group arranged as in advance. And one time when I did that, you were our Alaska Geographic person, which was super fun. And one of the things. That I love about that presentation. And not only that one other presentations that Rangers do or like at OT Lake that get into some of the adaptations that the animals in Denali have that allow them to. Survive and thrive in this super harsh environment. And I was wondering if you could share just an example of that for folks. Like what's an animal that visitors often see and and how is it adapted to live in this specific place? I would love to, I feel like I learn from the mammals around, our home. Just about resilience. Yeah. I can apply it to my own life because when I watch what they survive, they inspire me. Um, I think my favorite. Mammal to talk about is usually the moose. I have sort of like this love hate relationship with the moose because I'm never tired of seeing them, but they scare me. People always say the most dangerous animal in Denali is the grizzly bear, but that's not the truth. Yeah, it is The moose. Yeah. They just have this very wide personal bubble and they're active year round and so, you know, and they're really big. Yes. Gosh. I mean, they may not wanna eat you, but like if they're mad and you're in the way, you're screwed. And I'm sure Patrice's gonna tell you about that right now. Well, I maybe will share about my moose encounters when I've, I think I've been, um, bluffed charged quite a few times because that's what Moose do. They do. Yeah. And I try not to get in their personal bubble, but it just so happens that I'm unlucky enough sometimes. Yes. Um. What I was going to reference was just, you know, again, the season change and these transitions through the, the season are really tough on the moose, you know, because when visitors are coming in the spring slash summer, so you know, right around May, June, let's just talk about that period of time, that's when our moose are giving birth. And so they have these calves, you know, the cow moose, the female moose are giving birth to the, uh, to the calves. Um, the male moose, the bull moose is nowhere to be seen. Um, so mama is the one that is taking care of these small, and usually the moose have twins, maybe triplets. And so she is giving birth to these small babies and trying to teach them how to survive because Summer everybody's feeding. So this is when. The carnivals are coming out and are really hungry and are like, Ooh, look at these baby moose that I, I can nibble on, um, and go after. Yeah. And so it's a really tough and sensitive time. And so when visitors are, if they're lucky enough to see a mom with her calves, that's a beautiful experience. But just know that that mom is really working hard to protect her babies. And so, you know, they're going through the summer, you see them grow up, they get, they start like, like tiny puppy dogs and then they get to be. Enormous by the end of the summer. But I like to point out that our moose are, um, herbivores. So they're eating all this plant life during the summer, which is very abundant. And then what happens when the season changes in the fall? Leaves, they're dropping there. There's no longer any leafy vegetables for them to eat, feed on. So they're going through this change in their diet, and so they start eating other things. They eat willows, like frozen willow buds, the willow branches. They'll eat the aspen bark and they'll scrape it off with their, their teeth. And, and so just changing the diet, they're now like. Since, you know, they're, they're trying to survive on something that doesn't have as much nutrition. So thinking about as we're changing the seasons, you know, they're, they're diet changing, they're kind of getting like weaker and then we get all this snow and they have to si sort of like reserve their energy traveling through snow. Or maybe it's ice. Maybe we have a, a, a different kind of winter pattern with, , it being a little icy and they're very tall. They can step through the snow, but that takes a lot of work and yeah. One thing I like to point out is that, , the female moose, the cow are getting pregnant in the fall and so they are now, their gestation period lasts through the winter. Mm-hmm. So thinking about how they are pregnant. Eating bark. Yeah. Through the entire winter, trying to travel through snow and keep themselves healthy and then giving birth that spring. So I like to, it's amazing like to say that yes, they are amazing. I like to say that another sensitive time is during the winter. When they're very like hangry. Yes. And these adaptations that they have to do to their own diet and to their own survival and just like reserving that energy once again, it just teaches me resilience. Yeah, it's, it's incredible how they're able to do that. And also they live in environments that have these harsh winters but also pretty hot summers. Right. It's amazing that they can. Survive such extreme temperatures. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Justin, do you wanna add anything to that before you move on? Oh, we could go on and on. Patrice and I about all the different animals and adaptations. And people say like, oh, don't you get sick of seeing animals? We do not like lakes. No, that's not a thing from moose to bears it. It's, it's unbelievable. Yes, we see moose, like you see deer in the lower 48, but still it's a very special experience. Yeah. And you know, we'll stop and pull over and as Patrice said, we are afraid of the moose and we, we have to look when we leave our cabin out the door and look both ways and make sure there's no moose out there. But yeah, I meant. We do programs about animal adaptations. And you heard it from Patrice at, at your presentation and we do that at Auto Lake too and everything, but Yeah. Yeah. The animals, I meant the landscape, the mountain. That's why we're here. And, and the peace and quiet, I meant even in the summer we do say there's peace and quiet, even though we have hundreds of thousands of visitors, they're all over the place and, and dispersed out. The plant life is something that. Experience the, the wildlife is something they experience, but just like the soundscape, the air quality, this is just once again, an experience that you probably wouldn't have in where you live, or even sometimes in other parks that are a little bit more crowded. That's why when I understand that people wanna come and see the crown jewel because that's what the marketing says. Like you come to see the big mountain, but I can't tell you how many times people are just. Wowed by the other mountains around. Yeah. Like Justin mentioned this earlier, oftentimes people will be looking at a mountain and they'll be like, that's Denali, right? They're like, oh no, it, it's not. That's actually only five Lean back. Yeah. But you know, sometimes they're looking at a mountain and I'm like, that's only 5,000 feet Denali's, 20,000 feet. You know? Yeah. So the, to them, they just think Alaska is so. Um, vast and so big it, it, it's one of those things, you know, kind of like Texas says everything's bigger in Texas. Well, in Alaska people are struck by that as well. Our mountains are really large and we're surrounded by them. So I do understand why people wanna see the tallest mountain, but there are plenty of mountains. Yeah. To see. For sure. But to step back, I also wanna say the mountain is beautiful. And if you do have, if you're part of that 20 or 30% that have the opportunity to see it, it is absolutely staunching. I mean, that's what drew me to the park. So when I saw this mountain in 2003, I said, that thing is unbelievable. And what Patrice and I provide our authentic experiences. So when I get to talk about the mountain, I actually get to talk about my 26 days on the mountain and climbing it. So there's all these stories that we get to tell. When we do our hikes or presentations and all of that. Yeah. So yes, and I always tell people, if you don't get to see the mountain now, come back in the winter because it's very visible in the winter. You have a lot more better opportunities. Yeah. But you've already been here in the summer. So come in the winter and do some dog sledding and do some northern lights and then yes, you have a better opportunity to see the mountain. Um. I always tell people, don't give up hope, because you know, on your return when you're heading back down to Anchorage on that train or that coach, just look out the window. Yeah. It could be out, you know, or to Fair Lakes. Yeah. Yeah. Same for when you're flying in and out of those places, like on your way to Alaska or on your way home. Yeah. There have been many, many times. I've been in Alaska for two or three weeks and the only time I saw Denali was on final in acreage. Um. Okay. So before we get into a few sort of Denali visiting things, I also wanted to ask you about climate change. 'cause this is something that we talk about quite a bit on tour. Because people are seeing things like trees that have been killed by, spruce beetles. For people in Alaska, climate change has been very real in maybe a more intense way than it has been in some other parts of the country till recently. And I think it's helpful to, for people to think about why a place with such an extreme climate can be a place where you see some of these things. So is there anything. That comes to mind for visitors to keep an eye out for other,, we talked about, briefly mentioned like the spruce bark beetle, but, and is there anything else that is something that people will see on their visit that,, connects to. Climate change. I think if I could just chime in about the spruce beetle. Um, this is very evident because most of your trips when you come are you're gonna start in Anchorage. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna work your way up to Talkeetna and Denali and Fairbanks, and you are gonna see this change because. As you are traveling, you're gonna see all these trees that are brown and burned. They look like they're bird, but this is the spruce beetle that started about 20 years ago. Now, this isn't an invasive beetle, this is a beetle that lives here that just kind of started. It's working its way north. Yeah, it has just reached the southern portion of the national park. So as you are traveling, your tour guide will be telling you about this beetle, but as you get into the park, you're gonna see. Some evidence, but as you get a little further north and you come into Healy, there's no evidence. And as you get further north into Fairbanks, there's no evidence. So this beetle is something that's happening. It's very disturbing. As you get into Cantwell, you kind of will see it a lot and then it kind of diminishes as you get into the canyon. Yeah. With these extreme winters, we are hoping that that might kill off the Beatle a little bit. And this winter was quite extreme, but we've had extreme winters where sometimes it hasn't. It is a problem that we see with this beetle and that's something you'll certainly notice on there. With the beetle that is the one thing where people definitely, as they're traveling through the state, it, it's, it's like hits them hard because they see that that kill Yeah. Um, of the trees. And, of course across the United States there's a lot of other insect kills, that people have experienced in their own area. So they understand it. And again, as Justin said, it's a cyclical event here in Alaska. But the, the reason that it's hit this far north, um, is because of those changes in our winters. The colder winters would keep that beetle at bay and keep it down south and, and kind of control it. But because we've experienced, warmer winters and, we've experienced such a change ourselves where yeah, we've had those really heavy snowfall winters. We were here for the winter where we had 176 inches of snow, which was our record here for Denali. Then we've had this past winter, which was definitely coldest on record with so many, um, our, my little amateur weather stats showed that at our cabin. Our average temperature from December 5th to, uh, March 24th was negative six degrees Fahrenheit. Yeah. And so, , the, they're so different. And then there was last winter where we went up and down above freezing and below freezing. And, and that was atypical too. So. I feel like what people don't realize is that when you're this far north, latitude wise,, our climate change is just more profound. Yeah. With those changes, with those drastic weather,, differences that we're experiencing. . As a summer visitor, which, uh, vast majority of people are coming in the summer, you are gonna notice it because of that change with the trees, with the spruce trees,, because of the beetle. Yeah. And then you're also maybe if you're a visitor that's been here before, because we've started to see like more repeat visitors that are coming back, they might notice. Plant life changes. Mm-hmm. , As I was talking earlier about the park, when you're driving on one of those bus tours and getting into the park, you are seeing the forested area, the boreal forest, you're seeing the taiga where the, the trees are starting to dissipate and, and, and be more spread out, and then you're seeing the tundra. Well, that is something that we're starting to see is what we call shrubification. Mm-hmm. We're starting to see a tree grow in areas, of the park where they hadn't before. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that of course is impacting everybody's, you know, the wildlife, every wildlife, um, yeah. Just their, their diet. It might be affecting where they have to travel. , And our snow cover effects. The, not just the moose, but like our doll sheep, you know? Yeah. They're the ones that are eating off of the rocks and if they're, we have more snow one year, they might not be able to get to it. They can't shovel out. Or the caribou as well. Same thing, and so I think that people need to hear these stories when they're here and visiting to be able to understand how it impacts a place like Denali, this far north. Yeah. Yeah, and I wanted to kind of connect back to something Justin said too. And I think you hit on this as well, Patrice, that like the spruce beetle is part of Alaska's environment. It's always been there. Trees, you know, tiger forests, that's always been there. It's the changes that are, , potentially destructive mm-hmm. Or issues for wildlife. That, we were talking about all these adaptations that are amazing, but then they don't serve you very well if the climate is changing faster than, than you can adapt. So thanks for Yes, thanks for giving those examples. I think, you know, and I know it'd be easy to say, well, interior Alaska just had this super harsh winter, so. Climate change must not be happening. Right. And, and so that unpredictability is also a big part of climate change. And also weather and climate are not the same thing. Right. , Our weather today may or may not have anything to do really with like, yeah. Okay. So Justin and Patrice, you've lived in Healy for many years. And you live there year round and you interact with visitors in lots of different ways, including cleaning their Airbnbs. So I'd love to know, , What is some advice that you ha You know, normally I ask people like, what's their advice for travelers to Alaska? But I think for you, getting a little more specific to Denali. So if you're staying in an Airbnb, then you're by definition traveling there on your own. 'cause if you're part of a tour, you're gonna be staying somewhere else. So for people coming to Denali on their own, not with a tour group, what are some things, um, that. Future visitors can learn from past visitors mistakes? That's a really good question. I think that the independent traveler, um, group. Is becoming more popular way to see Alaska. Obviously the cruise was the first way and the land tour that's packaged onto the cruise, being part of a tour group was absolutely the first access, , for visitors. But nowadays, I feel like people are putting together their own itineraries. However, they get very overwhelmed. Alaska is an enormous state, and so they're trying to figure out where they wanna spend. Their time in the areas and , if they a mistake that they maybe could go buy from other people is to only spend one day here in Denali because they think, oh, it's just, one road in and out. It's just a day trip. But there's just so much more to the area and yeah, again, it's such a. Part of the state. It's very different than Southeast Alaska where, you have more of that wa you know, the water and the, more of like the rain forested areas, especially if you're coming up on a cruise. So being an interior Alaska, we have that difference. Um, with our wildlife, we have that difference with the plant life. And so I think a mistake is to not spend more than. Three days here. Yeah. People try to kind of like see so much of the state and jam it all into a seven day vacation or a two week vacation, and I get it, not all of us have the luxury of having, , endless time off, but I just feel like you can't just do Alaska all. All of Alaska in one trip. And I think one mistake is that people think that they can just breeze through this area. And maybe if they're planning to come back, that's fine because they get a taste of it. But I think they miss out on the experience of being in the middle of the state. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'd like to chime in a little bit about the mistakes, talking about these independent travelers that are coming in their own cars. I think a lot of 'em think, well, I've gotta stay in the canyon. I've gotta stay at these large hotels. And what we try to stress to them is, no, you don't. If you have your own car, you can get away. The Canyon is very crowded. It is perfect for people traveling on a tour and doing the cruise. It is absolutely perfect for them because they don't have transportation and they can walk around. But if you have a car, stay south of the park in the village, stay in Healy. Healy is 15 minutes away from the park. Yeah. Most of the Airbnbs and Healy are tucked away off a little dirt road, kind of where moose are walking by your door, and so you're seeing these animals even closer than you would in the bus and you have your car and so you can go into the canyon and you can go do things, but get, the canyon is quite busy and justly so because it has the massive cruise hotels there. And so that's what we stress to people. Get away and I, I get these calls, a lot of people that say, well, I'm driving here and where's the big hotels and I could stay. And I said, here they all are before in the canyon there. But yeah, you could also get away and do these Airbnbs. And most of these Airbnbs are very unique here. They're all owned by locals. Like we all live here, and Patrice and I have a couple Airbnbs. Ours are very unique. They're yurts, so you know. Oh, fun. Very unique places and you can really experience Alaska. And a lot of, I'd say half the Airbnbs here are dry. What does that mean? That means you don't have running water, so you gotta use our outhouses. And people love that. So they'll spend two nights there and then move to the hotel with the, the showers and the toilets and all that. Yeah, yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that you can. You can do it, listeners. In fact, we have an episode, I think it's in 2024. That's all about like using an outhouse and why it's gonna be fine. Love that. I love it because I have my friend, it's for Alaska experience. Yeah, I think it was November, 2024. I didn't look it up before we started this conversation 'cause I didn't. Think of that. But my friend Julie, she owns several Airbnb cabins in Fairbanks, and so we were talking about how like if you're looking for less expensive accommodations mm-hmm. Make it work with an outhouse and you can do it. You can do it. Yeah. We, we, we've been doing it for seven years. Yes. We live dry, so we do it every day. And in the, when it's negative 40, we do it. Yes. So you can do it in the beautiful summer where it's sunlight all the time. You absolutely can. And in my experience, any place that you rent with an outhouse is like. Pristine, like the most beautiful outhouse you've ever seen. When I lived, when Jay and I lived in a dry cabin, we were like, this outhouse is gonna be nice. Right? And our landlord, we didn't own it, but our landlord was really great. He had built it really well, so it had. You know, it was a good, canvas, if you will, to start with, to make a special homey outhouse. Yeah, I definitely feel like, by the way, one thing listeners to know, if you are interested in renting a dry cabin, whether that's in Healy or Fairbanks, um. You can rent them on Airbnb, but you can't on vrbo, so mm-hmm. Just be aware of that. VRBO doesn't rent dry, they don't rent as many different kinds of places as Airbnb does. So if you're more of a vrbo, uh, user and you want to dry cabin, you'll have to switch or go through your local visitors bureau, who will also point you in the right direction if you wanna stick it to the man. The, I was just gonna say, I feel like, um, I hear that a lot from people after the fact when they use the outhouse, they're like, oh, it really wasn't that bad. It was a great experience and I got to like check it off my bucket list. Mm-hmm. And New York probably, oh, go ahead Justin. Half of our guest comments are, we love their outhouse. It was so decorated. It was, this was awesome. You know, I got to go to the bathroom outside the moose, walked by when I was going to the bathroom. Like, so yes, it's, it's not just. Yeah. Yes, it's nice. Yeah. And for the, this is literally like, I mean, this podcast has like 180 episodes and this is probably the hundred and 70th where we've talked about outhouses. It's way, it's part of Alaska. It always comes up. Um, it's part of Alaska. It is. But I will say something to, ease your way into an outhouse is to think of the, hmm. Hundreds of dollars per night, at least that you're saving. It helps for sure when you're using an outhouse to be like, oh, I just peed outside. That was $200 or more, depending on the situation. So that's a, a good way to put it for sure. Like if you needed a little bit of a push, you know, you're certainly gonna pay more when you have running water access to, you know, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like, how much do you rent the yurts for? I think that they're, less than 150 a night , is the base price. Yeah. I think we're, I think we're like 1 35 a night. Very, very affordable and, yeah. Yeah. And, and people come and they spend their two nights, or one night, two nights usually, and they love it. And it's, glamping. It is a beautiful year. It, you know, the outhouse has a beautiful path to it. It's decorated and yeah, it's. It's fantastic. And so, and I'll just say that you will not find a boring hotel room in the canyon for under five or $600 a night. Nope. At the, Nope, not at all. And it's gonna be real boring now. Denali is expensive. The hot dogs are also $20. We talked about that recently on the podcast also. Um, so yeah, Trinidad, um, from Northern Epics was on the pot a couple months ago, and we talked about the hot dogs. That's another one, by the way, listeners, that was all about hiking., In Denali in more depth. So go back and listen to that one, although it was more recent. Okay. So before I let you guys go, is there anything else about like visiting Denali, , as an independent traveler that you wanna share with anybody? Everyone. Yes. I feel like you did mention this in the beginning of the podcast that, you know, a little bit logistic wise, I think that Justin, for his visitor center job gets these calls a lot. I've worked at the park, have gotten these calls. I've gotten these inquiries from Airbnbs as well. When you're an independent traveler. I think people think because the train ride is a great way to arrive in Denali. Mm-hmm. But what one thing that we have heard time and time again, people just don't realize that Denali is so spread out. So you arrive on train in the park, but you can't walk to a hotel from there. Yeah. You can't get to any of the eateries from there. And so I feel like that is something just to like. Shout out to independent travelers. Answer your question, you do need your own transportation to get around. Yes. It'd be very hard. You can do it. I just talked to a visitor yesterday who is planning to arrive, actually not on the train, but on one of the buses that come up to, Denali and they're gonna get dropped off in the canyon and then walk to their campsite in the park and then just be able to get around on the courtesy shuttle through the park. Yep. And that is perfectly fine, but it takes work. And so, yeah. And you have to. Figure it out ahead of time, right? Yes. Part of that planning process, sometimes the logistics take the fun out of planning. But in the Denali area, it really does help when you have your own transportation. Now I will say like pe, you know, pe, we don't have Uber or Lyft. The general things you hear of. There are, you know, there actually is one, um, I think right now just one transportation service, um, that is available that you have to kind of book in advance. Yeah. You can't, you could maybe call them last minute and say, Hey, I need a ride from A to B, but it's not a guarantee. It doesn't work like a regular taxi. And our area is so spread out, so we talk about the entrance to the park and one road that goes in and out, but the places that you're staying. They could be spread out a hundred miles on the, on the highway. Yeah. You know, the park is like kind of the, in the middle of all the places you can stay in the entire Denali borough. Yeah. I think that's such a good point. And if you're booking on Airbnb or vrbo, you really need to understand where it is and you're gonna need a car for sure. I would echo with Patrice here, with these independent travelers, you have this car, you have so much more than the national park. Yeah. Yes. The national park is beautiful, but go north and south of the park, you have the Denali Highway, which is vast wilderness to explore. Yes. You have just north of the park and antler and bison and places that you go hiking. You have Auto Lake and Healy where you can just have a boat and go out there. So there's so much more to do. Yeah. And then these drives are just epic. Yes, the train is epic. Um, but. The drives are epic, and you're gonna find yourself stop a two hour drive to Fairbanks. It could take you four hours because you're gonna stop so many times. You know, your four and a half hour drive to Anchorage, you're gonna be stopping all the time. It's all day. I I do think it's all day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it when people are, like, Google Map said it would take four hours. No, it will not. Mm-hmm. It will take way longer than that. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. And we get, like, we've gotten calls before where people are like, oh, if I stay in Talkeetna, you know, the boundary of Denali National Park is down there. Well, Talkeetna is two and a half hours. Yeah. To, you know, to the actual entrance to the park. And so, you know, I think it's like really hard to encapsulate. Oh, this vast area can be explored. Yeah. , One hack. This is probably a good time to mention it. Again, it's come up on the pod before. If you are wanting to take the train, like Patrice said, like then. You getting, , things are really spread out. One thing that can work well if you're planning a train trip to Denali is to book your hotels also, with your train ticket, because then you'll be at hotels that have transportation back and forth to the train depot. That's a, um. Really good point to bring up. In the Denali area, there are quite a few hotels that provide the transportation,, from the train station. And so if you, you figure that out and that works for you. Now with that being said, we do have a rental car,, company, very small rental car company in the Denali area. Where you could rent a car, however, that is something that you need to book way in advance. Yeah. Because they get, like I said, very small. I think that they have a fleet of maybe like eight cars. Yeah. That certainly doesn't serve the whole visitors. It does not serve everyone who thinks they would like to rent a car there. Yeah. For these independent travelers are coming, you know, Patrice and I live here and every year we only allow, well. Three of our family friends to come up and stay. We don't allow, but that's kind of like our quota. And every time people come, they ask us what to do. So just real quick, as locals, here's what we tell you to do. Take a bus tour. Yeah, take a flight scene tour. I mean, I know the flight scene tour is five or 600 bucks, but you are here once. Do it. Yeah. Do a rafting trip and go hiking. And if you don't wanna hike by yourself, there are plenty of good companies up here. Just like Northern epics that could take you hiking. Yeah. So those are kind of the things we say to do here. Um. The kind of the. The bread and butter, and that's what our visitors, our friends and our family do. Another thing that I tell people just inside the park, you know, when people are asking like, oh, if I'm not doing a bus tour, or even if I am doing a bus start, what else am I doing in the park? Well, I always tell people, our visitor center, our summer visitor center is like a mini museum. Yeah. I mean, granted, maybe it only takes 30 minutes, an hour to go through. It's pretty cool. It's the ambulance. Yeah. Yeah. The exhibits in there. And the park films. So informative. Yeah. The other thing is, , and there certainly are outside companies that offer, sled dog tours, which. You know the sled dogs are a integral part of all of Alaska, but also Denali. And Denali is the only national park to have a working dog kennel. Yeah. And so go meet the happiest government employees that you'll ever meet at the dog kennel. Yes. For free. I just feel like there are all these different, things that, that ways to experience the park, pieces of the park besides the big mountain. Yes. Yes. 📍 Absolutely. Well, Patrice and Justin, it was so wonderful having you here today. Thanks for sharing all this wisdom and your love of Denali with everybody. Thank you. Thank you for having us. We love to talk about Denali. Okay. If you enjoyed this episode, Jay and I would love to have you leave us a rating and or a review on whatever podcast platform you've listened to, and I know that every podcast host says this in every episode. That the reason is it really makes a difference in people being able to find us on whatever platform it is you're using. So other users of that same platform find us more easily. We get recommended more often, which helps us grow our listeners, which is super important for being able to keep doing this. So thank you so much for taking a moment to do that, and we'll see you next week.