Pilot's Perspective on Wrangell-St Elias National Park

Kelly, Austin and Keene, pilots with Wrangell Mountain Air, share their favorite places and moments flying over Wrangell-St Elias National Park and their advice for visitors who want to experience this incredible and vast park for themselves.

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Transcript

 📍 Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co-host and full-time husband, Jay, and I bring you accurate, helpful, and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and life in Alaska. Before we get into today's show, I wanna take a moment to thank our Patreon subscribers for making Alaska Uncovered possible. You can join them at the link in the show notes or at patreon.com/alaskauncovered. If you're planning a trip and you wanna get your hands on some of my planning tools, in my online shop, I have a bunch of different on-demand workshops that are videos and resource guides to help you do everything from book your own Alaska cruise, to finding hidden gems in Alaska, , to visiting all of Alaska's national parks. So get your hands on those at shop.ordinary-adventures.com. And just a reminder, you can always save 10% as a podcast listener, so check it out there in the show notes or head on over and enjoy the show My guests today are three pilots from Wrangell Mountain Air. So we've got Kelly Bay, Austin Robl, and Keene Brown, and they all, um, fly in Alaska, have lots of experience doing that, and we're gonna have a really fun conversation today about Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, McCarthy, flying, all of that. So before we get into that in a bunch of detail, I would love to have each of you just introduce yourself to everybody and say, uh, kind of who you are and how you got into flying and being a pilot in Alaska. Austin, let's start with you for this one. I was a senior in high school back in 2000, and a friend of mine told me... I didn't know what to do. I knew if I didn't go to school right away, I probably never would. Wasn't sure what I wanted to do, and, uh, asked a friend of mine in high school what he was gonna do after we graduated, and he said that he was gonna go to the local community college and learn to fly. And that baffled me. I didn't think normal people could go do that. And, but I figured he was normal- That's awesome ... and so was I. So I followed him o- It's a big assumption. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So I followed him over there and just totally fell in love with it. I've always liked machines. I always thought airplanes were fascinating. It had just never once occurred to me, that I could actually go and learn to fly and do it myself. So I followed him there, went through the aviation program at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado, and I instructed for them for a while, and then I flew for a hospital for a little while, and that was a year or two before Kelly hired me to come up to Alaska. Kelly, how did you... kelly, by the way, was the original owner of Wrangell Mountain Air. So Kelly, tell us how, how you got into flying in Alaska. Well, I was in McCarthy, at the time I, I started flying. It just was an obvious thing to do when you live in McCarthy. Yeah, that's true. , Because you can't really get too many places unless you have an airplane. So anyway, I, saved up some money and went to Seattle, learned how to fly, went to Wyoming, bought a Cub and flew it back up here in, '82. Oh, that's awesome. Love it. Yeah. Okay, Keene, how about you? Well, I guess it, it kind of started my dad and my grandfather on my mom's side were both private pilots. And I grew up, hearing stories of, of them flying and having airplanes, and it was kind of all in the past for them, you know, when I came along. But, I heard lots of, lots of stories of, of them going places and learning to fly and how much they loved it, and so that was what sparked the original interest. And then, you know, I, I started taking lessons, ended up buying a, an old airplane, and came to the conclusion that it was a, a very expensive hobby and it might, a more suitable option to convince somebody to pay me to fly their airplane instead of funding it on my own. That was good thinking. And then, , I got my first job towing banners on the coast of New Jersey, which was a long ways from, from the plains of New Mexico for, for sure. And then- Yeah ... the allure of, of the Alaska flying and, the landscape and just kind of the, adventure of up there had always intrigued me. And I,, found a, found a job for Wrangell Mountain Air and, applied, and a few weeks later Austin started emailing and calling back and forth. And, I guess, the rest is history now, that I started, flying for him, worked for the last few years, and then when the previous owners decided it was time for them , to take a step back, I, I took over the company. It's kind of a, an amazing progression on- Yeah. ... how one email applying for a job has, has us, arriving here. Totally. That is so just how the world works, though, is, like, one thing leads to another and pretty so- pretty soon, here you are. I love that. Kelly, you are in McCarthy right now, and we're recording this in, like, late winter. Kelly, how many- Mm-hmm ... people are in McCarthy in the winter? That's a good question. Other than you. Five? I really, I can't really give you a number. I could give you a guess. I don't know, 30, 40 maybe. Okay. Okay. In a 10-mile radius. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a super remote location, and this is where Wrangell Mountain Air is based out of. So Kelly, can you tell us just a little bit about where McCarthy is, uh, where Wrangell-St. Elias National Park is, just to kind of get us grounded in, like, what part of Alaska we're talking about here? Well, it's in the eastern part of the s- south central Alaska, and it's, um, it's closer to the Canadian border than it is to Anchorage. Anchorage is, a two-hour flight, seven-hour drive from here. And it's, uh, just one range of mountains inland from the coast, so we're kind of protected from the severe coastal weather. But we get plenty of snow here. It's at the end of a 60-mile long dirt road called the McCarthy Road. Um, and yeah, it's 13 million acres of mountains and glaciers, basically. Beautiful place. It's amazing. It's amazing. And speaking of flying, when you are flying to or from Alaska, listeners, you usually can see some of the p- even on a cloudy day, you can often see the peaks of Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, like, an hour-ish before you arrive in Anchorage or after you leave. So even if you don't make it out there on your trip, you still might get a glimpse. Okay, thanks for explaining where that is, Kelly. So I'd love to ask you guys to just talk a little bit about flying in this area in general. And one thing I often tell people is, like, flight-seeing in Alaska is really special, and I feel like it's a good way to get a sense of how large it is. But I'd love to hear from your perspective as a pilot, you know, what makes flying over the park or anywhere over Alaska kinda special and unique. Let's stick with you, Kelly, and then we'll go to the other two, this is, like you say, a remote corner of, uh, of Alaska and, uh, it offers,, a lot of scenery that you probably wouldn't see in too many other places except Alaska. Mm-hmm. And,, I think probably this is one of the best places in Alaska to go flight-seeing, if not the best. I mean, when you take off out of McCarthy, you're, looking, as you turn and go back to the southeast or the east, you're looking right at Mount Blackburn, which is a 16,000-foot peak, and up to Kennicott Glacier. And I mean, you're just... It's pretty hard to get away from glaciers in, , Wrangell-St Elias. Yes. I mean- Yes ... yeah. And, there's so much country here to look at. You can go down to the coast and fly up to Bagley Icefield and down to Malaspina Glacier, Icy Bay, down there Mount Logan, second-highest peak in North America. There's Mount Saint Elias, 18,000 feet down that way. Then you come back up towards McCarthy and you've got, University Range, 16,000-foot mountains there, Mount Bona and Churchill. And oh, yeah, it just goes on and on and on, you know? There's a lot of variety here too. Besides, , mountains and glaciers, there's beautiful river valleys and rock formations and sheep and goats and all kinds of stuff to look at, and, a variety of lengths of, uh, flight-seeing trips, depending on how long you wanna go for or what you can afford, to take advantage of all the best,, parts of this park. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay., Keene, do you wanna add anything to that or have any different perspective on what makes flying in Alaska special? Like what Kelly describes is, , there, there's just such a vast diversity of things, that we get to see on a daily basis. And, similar to, you know, the practical aspect that he mentioned before, if you want to get anywhere in Wrangell-St Elias, you have to use an airplane. And so there's something kinda special and magical about being able to, you know, traverse this extremely remote and rugged landscape, , from the comfort of a seat of an airplane and get to see- Yeah you know- sights one after another that are so incredible and,, almost indescribable. Yeah And, you think that,, it keeps continuing on, , for millions of acres. And, for the vast majority of it a, a human has never even set foot on. And so, for, especially from the pilot perspective that, , we all enjoy the, the, the simple y- thing of, of being in the air and flying anywhere, and then you get to, tack onto that this incredible landscape that just goes on and on that has, has things that, your mind isn't prepared to even process as far as scale and beauty and- Yeah and how much there is, that it's just, you know, I mean, we all we become insufferable because that's all we can talk about because- Right ... most of us love it so much And people are like, "We're tired of hearing about it." Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Austin, how about you? You wanna weigh in on this? I don't have a lot to add, just that I love to be down in the midst of it. Like you said, if you're flying a 737 into Anchorage, about an hour before you land you can look out, out the right window and, and down at the peaks and see that there's some big mountains down there and a lot of ice. And it's fascinating from 30,000 feet like that, but the, the difference of being down below the peaks and weaving around in the mountains, over the rivers, and then actually landing out in the middle of nowhere is just, it's really, really great. The only other thing I have to add is on the flightsees, this doesn't happen every time by any means, but, often I'll land the airplane and we all climb out and people are just oddly quiet- Yeah ... because they're literally awestruck. We use the word awesome all the time, but it, we don't use it the way it means. But , this is one thing and one place and a view that truly is awesome. People end up oddly quiet after a flight because it's of, like Keen said, the- we're just, we're not really prepared to take it all in. It's pretty- Yeah ... it's pretty cool. Yeah. It sure is. Okay. So I'd love to know maybe for each of you, we could start with you, Austin,, what's your favorite place in the park to take visitors, either over, either to land or to fly over? Can I give you two? You can. Okay. I'll allow it. I have an even tie, so it's hard to answer that question without, without two. That's good., My favorite- Two places are, Nikolai, we have a little, a little strip that's way up high. It's like 7,000 feet above sea level. McCarthy's 1,500 feet above sea level. Like Kelly said,, we're one mountain range in and we're at the base of that mountain range. And so,, it's actually quite close to sea level. But the mountains go up quick, like he said, Mount Blackburn's right there, 16,000 feet. But half- halfway in, in altitude, just east of McCarthy, there's a little strip we call Nikolai, and you land up there and , it just feels like you're on top of the world. It's incredible. There's a, there's about a 4,500-foot cliff that you're standing at the lip of with about 30 seconds walk after you land. We land right on the edge of this cliff. And so you walk for 30 seconds and you're looking down 4,500 feet or so to the river beneath you. It's just- That's cool ... just incredible. And then the, my, my other favorite that's just as much favored but for totally different reasons, uh, is a place we call The Fan, and it's like a sandbar, uh, that's squished in between two old, very large, very old glaciers that, that have backed away. And so it's left this place that feels like the beach, but not really, and you're down in the bottom of this bowl. Unlike, unlike Nikolai where you're up at 7,000 feet, this is down around 2,500, maybe 3,000 feet. And the mountains rise around you and there's just nothing else around. And it, it feels, where Nikolai feels like you're on top of the world, , The Fan to me feels like you're on a different planet. Like you land and it, you just feel like you're the only one on, in the world. That's amazing. Sounds incredible. I've n- I've never been to either of those places, so I'll have to go. They're pretty cool. Yeah. Come home. Uh, yeah. I know. Um, okay. Keene, how about you? Favorite spots. Well, like Austin, it, it's really hard to narrow it down to one. I know, I know. And it's all pretty close. The, probably the one that sticks out to me is a spot we, we call Wolverine, which is up on a, a shelf on a ridge that's about 5,500 feet. And you get s- on a clear day you get kind of this incredible panorama that you're on a mid-level ridge at the top of a, about a 3,500-foot cliff down into the river valley. But also behind you and all around you can also see mountains towering above you going up to- Over 16,000. You can see Mount Bona, Mount Churchill, two really high volcanoes as a backdrop, , and it's in, a high tundra, kinda green, almost grassy, soft, squishy soil. And so it's, super easy hiking, , and the minute you get out of the airplane, you can see everything: glaciers, rivers, all kinds of scenery. And then probably equal to that is, one of the places we go down on some of our flight sees that Kelly mentioned in Icy Bay, which is down on the coast at- Mm. Yeah ... near the base of Mount Saint Elias- Yep ... which goes up to 18,000, and it's super new, fresh, deglaciated area. So the landscape is so bizarre and incredible because it's, , has been uncovered by ice, I think, less than 100 or 200 years ago. That's wild. That's amazing. Kelly, how about you? Well- Favorite spots? It's hard to, hard to pinpoint one, but, , Wolverine's, Wolverine's really a nice spot. I, I agree with Keene there. That's, a spot we developed over the years. It was,, pretty much on track when I first went in there, and we've been, uh, using it since as a place to drop hikers. Oh, cool. Great spot, good hiking, great views. There's always sheep there. There's a herd of goats that hang out just across the little drainage on the other side to the, uh, to the west, it really is a cool spot. , There's lots of places in the park where I've landed with Super Cub that, , we don't use, never used on a regular basis for a lot of reasons, because of the conditions. It wasn't reliable enough to take people in there all the time, but there's- Yeah ... so many places. Nikolai's a, Nikolai's a great place. I like that spot as well. Cool. And Skoli, you know, Skoli, Skoli is a really, really beautiful spot. A lot of places you can go there, different directions. And down in the Shungnak there's, Iceberg Lake and Sand Glacier, like, , Austin was talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's- There's a lot of cool things out there in the park, for sure- Oh ... and around it, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And Stea- Oh ... Steam- another one, Steamboat Hills is another really cool spot. Cool. I took the family camping there at Steamboat this past year, this past summer season. We went and spent a couple nights out there, and it was, one of the best things we've ever done as a family. It's ju- it was just- Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, it's really fun. That's awesome. Yeah, it's a cool spot. You know, there was, I don't know if you've ever walked around there and noticed the old tin cans and stuff that are up there. Yeah. From the old days when- Yeah, we found a 7 Up can from the '70s or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, old fun spot. Okay. So one thing I'd really love to ask you guys as from your perspective as a pilot, so I, you know, I, I work as a tour director, so I have people who are booking flight seeing tours, but I also, help people plan their trips during the winter, and I feel like flight seeing is one of those things where people are often really intrigued by it or they really want to do it. But also sometimes people feel really intimidated by doing flight seeing. Like, you know, we're talking about tours that are more expensive than, say, a, a hiking tour or a bike tour or also a bike tour. I meant a boat tour. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what are things that people are worried about when, maybe this is their first time going in a small plane, don't know what that's gonna be like. What are things that people worry about that you are like, "Yeah, you don't really need to worry about that thing"? Kelly, do you wanna start? Oh, yeah, I mean, there's a wide variety of things that people worry about. From crashing to throwing up in the airplane, you know? It's- Yeah ... but, the thing I guess I tried to do with people that felt uncomfortable was make them feel relaxed, and be relaxed,? Yeah. If you're, they're tense and ... Yeah, and just, you explain things as you go along, too, what you're gonna do. Yeah. How you're gonna do it. If you get in the air and it's bumpy, you can talk about what turbulence really is. Mm-hmm. You know? And, uh, you know, just talk them through it. Yeah. Most, most people relax after they get in the airplane and- Yeah ... fly around, especially if it's smooth, ? Turbulence, nobody likes turbulence, not even- So you just have- Not even pilots? Is that true? Especially pilots. We've had our fill of it. Yeah, right, you're over it. Yeah. Over it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, it's just, you know, just a matter of trying to make people feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Keen or Austin, do you wanna add anything to that? What are things ... I think that's great. I know that I, I personally am not,, the world's most comfortable flyer i've done it a lot, but, like, it does help if, you know, the pilot is like, "Yeah, we got this." You know? That's always, that's always good. But what do you guys think people don't need to worry about when they're thinking this through? Like Kelly said,, usually by the time we're getting in the airplane, I, I kind of enjoy flying with people who are slightly nervous, or, even a lot nervous starting out, as long as they're bold enough to get in the airplane. Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a fun challenge, one, to, help them settle down and enjoy themselves in the airplane, but it's also just fun to watch 'cause it's- Yeah ... it's what happens overwhelmingly, , the majority of the time. Most everybody that gets in the airplane by the end of the flight, they're enjoying themselves and, , it has to do with what Kelly was saying, the, the pilot feeling- Yeah he's comfortable and confident in kinda talking them through what's going on and why, why they don't need to worry. Yeah. As far as, you know, as you're organizing trips and booking stuff ahead of time, what I would say there is just, is just that, um, one, aviation in general is very, very safe- Mm-hmm ... which doesn't usually do a lot of help making people comfortable because- Yeah we've all, we all know that airplanes can crash. There's, there's, uh, inherent risk in everything we do, and there's- Sure ... there's inherent risk in flying the airplanes, too. But just an en- encouragement to remember that, that it is safe. Other than Kelly's particular lapse in judgment when he hired me- ... we hire exceptional pilots, um, who are good at what they do, and, that's not just flying the airplane, but it absolutely is flying the airplane also. We hire people and we train them well and, , that bumps the safety of it up also. Yeah. And then the, the other thing is just the way that we operate, I think a lot of people kind of think of Alaskan aviation as, as the Wild West or kind of a cowboy atmosphere, and there is some of that for sure, but I would say most of the air taxis in Alaska, and in Ring Mountain Air in particular, um, we- We want to be every bit as professional as United Airlines, and we care as much about keeping our airplanes in the air as United Airlines does. And- Yeah ... and , if the weather is unsuitable for flying, we're real good about, uh, finding out how long people are in town. Yeah. If they're only in town for a couple hours, um, and the weather's not good and they can't go, it's a bummer- Yeah ... but we don't just cram them in the airplane and take them flying just because. You know? Yeah. If we can do it at another time, then we, we shift it around. And we just, because of how we operate, the, the culture within the company also keeps it safe for pe- for people, and it protects their investment, too. , They can book a flight seat ahead of time by six months- Mm-hmm and know that, that if the day arrives, they're either gonna get a good flight seat out of it, or they're gonna get their money back on it. Yeah. I think that's super important, Austin, 'cause I've had people ask me things like, "Oh, I should wait and see what the weather is before I book." And, and there's a couple reasons why I think that's a bad idea. Number one, then you might not be able to get in. And number two, like, the weather even when you, like, go outside isn't always the same as where you're going, right? So it might be raining, but you might still have a great tour as long as the cloud ceiling isn't too low or whatever. So, you know, your observation of the weather isn't necessarily what is going to be your whole trip, I guess. Oh, totally. At least- Yeah ... in the mountains that's certainly true. Yeah. That's, that's very much true. You know, we're, uh, on a, on our two-hour flight seats, Keene was talking about Icy Bay down south on the coast. On our, on our two-hour flight seats we'll go more than 100 miles away from McCarthy, and so the pilots know the area really well, and they, they know the weather... we've spent years observing what the local weather patterns are like. And so, um, we'll take off, and it might be raining and cloudy like you're saying. As long as it's high enough and clear enough to safely get away from and back to McCarthy, we'll go find the sunshine some days. Yeah. That's awesome. That's cool. That's fun. Keene, how about you? What, what are people worrying about that they don't need to be? Mostly what Kelly and Austin mentioned. Yeah. Other than the, the, the wild man at the f- at the front in the left seat sometimes when, when I fly with people. , It's a different experience all around being in a small airplane- Yeah being at lower altitudes compared to an airliner. , It's just such a different tactile and physical experience. Yeah. And then you tack on to that, like Austin said, , the somewhat of a reputation of, you know, supposedly how wild Alaska aviation is. And so, it's mostly just about debunking those perceptions and myths that- Yeah Even though we are in a small airplane in Alaska, we- we're striving to, like Austin said, be as professional as United Airlines. And we, are professionals and study, what we're doing, the area, the weather, and we devote a lot of time into obviously being proficient and good with the airplanes- Yeah and also reading the weather as to, can we effectively and safely fly, but is, on our flight seas, but, are we giving people a good value? Are they going to, are they going to enjoy it or- Yeah ... or be left feeling wanting? And if we make, if we feel that there's a chance of that, we don't, we try to work with people, try to find a different time. Yeah. Maybe they're staying another day or two where- Yep ... where, not just successfully taking off and landing, but also they're having a good time , and feel like they got their money's worth out of what they, they wanna see. And sometimes the weather, can accentuate and, add to the experience, you know? Yeah. Certain clouds in certain places, like it'll, with the sun breaking through,, accentuates certain features that might- Yeah ... be passed by , on a perfectly clear day. Yep. And- Absolutely ... and so I think that's the main thing is just realizing that it, we are a professional flying company and, most of our pilots, I think at this point, are somewhere average around 3 to 4,000 hours, which for, for context, it takes 1,500 hours to be an airline pilot. So- Yes. Most of our pilots in our small airplanes in remote Alaska could have left and gone to the airlines years ago, but they stay because we, we truly love and enjoy what we're doing and where we're at. Keene, , is there anything people aren't worrying about but they should be? I think... probably the main thing is, , people don't realize , the limitations as far as,, bringing huge bags or, you know- Yeah their big hard-sided suitcase with them that, you know- Right ... we let everybody know that in that regard we are more limited than, when you're flying on the 737 that- Right ... we've- we can't just charge you $50 and, and take your bicycle and your 100 pounds of luggage with you. Right. 'Cause then you might- And so- ... have to kick off a person to do that. Yeah. And so, just realizing that that's, , a real consideration- Yeah ... with the aircraft that we use And, because we're a professional flying company, we, we take those things seriously and the limitations- Right of our airplanes. Yes. When people realize that, that we're not, we're not being stingy , but it's- Right ... it's something that it's just a, a factor that we have to deal with with the equipment that we use. Yeah. I think that's a really good point, Keene, along with, getting on a scale. Sometimes people are really freaked out by that, and it's like, well, that's a safety thing, so you're gonna step on there and they're gonna make sure that the plane isn't overweight, and that's why that's important, and you can do it. It's fine. Um- Yeah. That, that definitely is, you know, something that is somewhat generally taboo that, you know, we're, we're- Yeah pretty comfortable asking people but- Yeah. I am too- ... at times they're taken aback by that but- ... 'cause, 'cause I have to ask people for booking, like, "Okay, give me your weight," and not just, like, your doctor's office weight, but you might have a camera and a coat and boots or whatever. Kelly or Austin, is there anything you wanna add to what Keene said well, I can tell you a little story about a woman up in, uh, Denali. You may have heard it already. Oh, I wanna hear it. I'm here for stories. That's where- Who, uh- Yeah ... who was asked as, as they boarded the plane, you know, she was asked what her weight was, and she gave it. And she got in the airplane. Of course, they put her in the back because she said she was, a certain weight. And they were taxiing out, getting ready to take off, and and she yells, "Wait. Wait. I lied. I lied." Oh, my gosh. That's funny. So they didn't actually ... Like- They, they- I've never been on a small plane where you didn't have to actually,, get on a scale Did they just take our word for it? Yeah. W- yeah, well it used to be, . Back in the day. Yeah. It's all, I mean, more sophisticated, but a lot of people didn't have scales back when, right. That's a good point, and yeah. Yeah. Cool. But it- They're just guessing ... it, it's a good idea. I mean- ... everybody did a pretty good job at guessing because, it, uh, it seemed to work, but if you really want your weight and balance to be right, you gotta weigh everything. Yeah. Yep. And, going back to that example of, like, United Airlines, they also have to be concerned with,, with weight and balance also. It's just, like, there's just so much more wiggle room, and the plane is so much bigger and has such a way bigger capacity that it's a different game. Yeah. Yeah, they use, uh, average weights and- Yeah ... and just count everybody at the same pr- same weight, and it,, it averages out to where it's okay. Right. We do, we do what's called a- an actual weight and balance program. The technical speak of it is actual weights, which is weighing the bags so you know whether a bag weighs 23 pounds or 28 pounds. And then we do, we are able to just take what's called solicited weights from people, and if it's obvious that they're not lying, , we can take their word for it as long as we add a buffer. There's always, there's a little bit of everybody's gonna lie by about 10 pounds. And so that's a, that's an actual legal requirement. We can take solicited weights and add 10 pounds- Uh-huh ... as long as it's obvious that they're not lying about it. Or, um, or we can have them step on a scale, and we do both. Yeah. Right, 'cause obviously it makes, I mean, well not obviously, but it makes sense that you'd, you'd need to guess to figure out how many pilots do I need today and who's going where and whatever, but then that you actually have to be sure before you take off makes sense. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, which is why we ask when you book so that we can kinda lay stuff out. If we know we're gonna have such and such a weight in an airplane, then we might have to limit it to only four passengers instead of five or something like that. But then when everybody gets to the airplane, it's, it's the pilot's job to make sure that they're within the weight and balance limits. Yeah. Like Keene said, we take the limits of the airplane seriously. And so each pilot, as they're closing the doors on the airplane, are making sure that it's within the limits for them. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, so I'd love to know if you guys, other than the one that Kelly already shared, which you can still share more, Kelly, do you have any great, I just wanna say, do you have any great flying stories? You first, Keen. Well, most of my stories, , I think I probably bring upon myself. Um, another, I have two that come to mind. Yeah, bring it. , Another aspect, that people are not expecting that, I guess is, we try to do our best to accommodate, but it's just the fact of what we do is, , most of our s- airplanes have an odd number of seating. And , most frequently people travel as couples, and so if we're going somewhere and, and we have a full flight,, we'll have to split a, a couple up. Got it. And, most of the time people are really accommodating and helpful, and volunteer. But,, there's groups that kinda dig their heels in, uh, regardless of the, the practicality of the situation- Yeah and they don't wanna split up. And,, I ha- had one interaction with, with a group like that, that they, they definitely didn't wanna split up , for whatever reason. And, , the lady that was giving me the most pushback about it looked at the airplane, and, , told me that she just didn't understand why I was making her fly on a different plane with her husband, 'cause she s- said, "Well, that airplane has six seats." And, and I told her, "Well, I, I, I have to come too." Right. One of those seats is for the pilot. , I get to, you know, be in, be counted as well. Right. Oh. And, and then probably, the other story that definitely, my family enjoys regaling people about is, it was my first year flying, and typically we, we have somebody that fuels our airplanes for us, and helps prep them as we're working between flights, but sometimes we don't. And so the, the pilots are responsible for fueling their own airplanes,, and this was one of those days, and our, the airplane was parked on the ramp. We were slightly late, so the customers were waiting, waiting to board the airplane- Hmm ... and I was fueling and prepping the plane. And, I missed a, a step off the ladder, and after I got done fueling, and tumbled off the ladder onto the ground with the- No fuel hose all tangled up onto me. Oh, that's so embarrassing. jumped up real fast and, you know- ... made a glance over to the passengers hoping that they were not looking at me, and they were all staring at me trying not to laugh. And they're probably like- And- "We're gonna fly with this guy?" Well, at, at that point I think their assumption was that I was the fueler and that austere- and coordinated pilot would, would saunter in, you know- Right ... after I departed. And so I, I drove off, left the fuel truck and walked back up, and introduced myself as their pilot and- ... and the look of terror and horror- No. ... as, , as the clumsy fueler became their- ... the pilot of their airplane. Oh. Oh, man. That's really funny. But, but fortunately I'm more adept with an airplane than I am with a ladder, so. Yes. Well, that's great. That's really funny. I was thinking about one time when I was getting on a small plane in King Salmon, and it wasn't a flightseeing trip, it was, like, transportation to another place. And the pilot the flight had been delayed for several hours because of the weather, and he came and, and to talk to everybody, to, 'cause it was a similar situation. People were getting on different planes and, calling names, and he was like, "It looks re- it looks really good we should be able to get in," and, to where we were going. And this gal said, she just looked terrified, and then she looked at me and she said, "He, not sure we're gonna be ma-" Like, like she thought he meant, "Well, maybe we'll crash, or maybe we'll land." And I was like, "No, no, no. That's, no. They just mean there's a chance we might have to turn around, that's all. Like, we're not, it's not like a either we land or oh well." Like, no, no. It's not like that. Yeah. We make sure we get on the ground somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, no, it's gonna, it's gonna be safe, just they're- saying it's a little wiggly for getting to our destination, but that's normal and fine and- That's great ... she was,, from,, Georgia or something and just was, like, feeling really stressed. So anyway., Austin, how about you? Um- You wanna throw anything out there before we wrap up? Yeah. A couple, a couple spring to mind. One that reminds, just popped into my head with you mentioning she was kind of out of her element and from Georgia, we- Uh, we will have people book from Europe- Mm ... and they will book through a travel agent who will just set their whole trip up for them, right? And they'll show up in Chitina, and we have scheduled service three times a day from McCarthy to, from Chitina to McCarthy, which is the end of the paved road. It skips what Kelly mentioned at the beginning here, the 60 miles of dirt road called McCarthy Road. And so they're able to drive a RV maybe to the airport, and then we bring them. It's a 30-minute hop instead of a couple hours on a, on an old railroad bed road. Yeah. Anyway, we, um, people will book from Europe, and they'll get on maybe a 747 or a 777 and fr- fly from Frankfurt to Chicago or something. And then they'll get on a 737 and they'll fly to Alaska. And then they might get on a Cessna Caravan or something to do a trip somewhere in Alaska. And then they end up in McCarthy, and we roll up in a Cessna 172, which is a four-seat, very small airplane. And every once in a while they'll just be like, "How small are these airplanes gonna get? They keep getting smaller." They have... When they book the trip, they have no idea what they're getting, what they're in for, right? Yeah. Right. 'Cause it's all printed, everything is in this packet. And I had this husband walk over to me one time. I was, I had,, landed, and he walked up to me and said, "Is this... We have a flight two hours from now. Is this the size of airplane that's gonna pick us up?" And I said, "Well, it might be slightly different, but , you get the idea. This is about the same." And, and he said, "Would you please tell your office that my wife and I will not be participating?" Oh, no. 'Cause his wife, his wife was like, "No smaller. This is, this is out of control. I'm not, I'm not getting on an even smaller airplane." Again, just kinda out of their element, you know? Yeah. And I could, yeah, you could be like, "Well, the next one is gonna be a one-seater and- Yeah ... you're gonna be flying." Yeah. Oh, gosh. Another one that springs to mind is, um, we had a really bumpy day. Some people are, are quite susceptible to motion sickness, and others, you can't hardly bother them, but- Mm-hmm I was, I was out fligh- flight seeing, this is years ago, on a pretty bumpy day. There was some wind moving around. It was nice and clear, so the photos were good, but oftentimes, um, on clear days the wind'll be moving around and making some bumps. And that was definitely true this day. And usually if people start feeling queasy, uh, I'll just come back, especially if it's a short or a small group, you know? It's just, this was just two guys, they were the same party, and, you know, we're trying to make it an exceptional experience for them- And, um, so I- we'll just, we'll customize it. We'll shorten it, we'll, we'll go different places. You know, we're always looking for smooth air, like Kelly said. We pilots don't like turbulence either. Yep. But this guy wasn't having it. I kept asking him like, "Hey, do you wanna go back?" And he just, he did not wanna go back. It was a two and a half hour flight to see, it was like this custom length thing that they had booked, and he was taking pictures and just would not ... I mean, he was feeling terrible. Aw. But he'd sit back in his seat and breathe, and then he would go back to taking photos. It was, it was amazing. That guy- Wow ... that guy was tenacious. Yeah. No kidding. Oh, man. That's wild. Mm-hmm. Love it. Great. Okay. Before I let you guys go, I would love to know, I'd love to ask you something I ask everybody who comes on this podcast, which is what is your top tip for first time Alaska travelers? Ooh. Go to Wrangell-St Elias National Park. Yes. There you go. Go. It's amazing, and hardly anyone comparatively gets to go there, so it's awesome. That's the pro tip. Yep. Love it. My answer to that would be bandwidth. Because Alaska tends to throw surprises at you, uh, it's, it's really good to have extra space in your schedule,? Yes. If you do a, a trip to Disneyland, you can plan and book every hour of each day that you're gonna be in Florida or whatever, but that's not true. If you're trying to get around Alaska,, it's really good to have down days every once in a while to kinda have- Yep ... some bandwidth between. Well, those are both great. Keene, do you wanna try to top those? They kinda stole my thunder there. Yeah, I, I think that's probably the biggest thing, what makes traveling to Alaska so special and unique,, but kinda building in that buffer in your schedule and realizing that, that it is a remote and sparse place. And so, logistically speaking, things are much more fluid and not quite as,, on the dot as, as you find, in other areas. And so planning- Yes ... a little extra time and, and being a bit flexible, and I think not trying to do it all- Yeah ... in one trip. You know? That, that you can kinda do like the, the 30,000 foot overview and speed through and cover lots of points, but you don't get to experience the depth of them. Yeah. Trying to focus in one area and, really go to the full depth of the experience available there is better than trying to gloss over, the broad picture. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna guess, you could tell me if I'm wrong, that all of you probably have places that you would love to visit in Alaska that you haven't been to yet. Is that true? I certainly do. Kelly's, Kelly and Keene have already been to 'em all. They've already been everywhere? Yeah. Well, I'm with you, Austin. I also have, a few or a million places I haven't been yet that I would love to go. Yeah. Keene, tell her about, tell her about the, uh, '24 trip up north with Brian. Yeah. We, we had a, a new pilot that started with us, and I had flown my personal airplane up, and, he needed some more hours in Alaska for our insurance. And so me and him took a trip from McCarthy to Barrow- Oh, cool ... and during the summer solstice. What? That's awesome. And we,, got to go on a polar bear tour and see the Arctic Ocean and, be on the peripheral of some of the solstice festivities up there. And everybody else was, was stuck working in McCarthy,, and we got to, got to brag about, you know, our polar bear trip for- That's pretty cool. We still get to brag about it, so. Yes. That's awesome. It's hard, hard to top that one. Yeah, seriously. But- Brian had been in Alaska for three weeks and got to go to the northernmost edge, and- It's amazing I've never been north of Fairbanks. That's such a great example of,, what I'm talking about. I always, sometimes I even show people my,, actual list of places that I wanna go, which isn't even all of them, and I'm like, "This, yeah, it's, don't try to do it all in one trip. It's not gonna happen." Well, um, okay, so listeners, this, um, Austin and Keene and Kelly are all pilots with Wrangell Mountain Air. And, uh, so if you wanna go flying with them or if you want to either flightseeing or if you wanna get a ride from Chitina to, uh, McCarthy and leave your rental car that you can't drive on that road in Chitina, it's a great option. So I will put their website in the show notes. Um, Austin, Keene, Kelly, thank you so much for coming on and sharing about the skies above Wrangell-St. Elias with everybody. Sure. You're very welcome. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Jennie. It's, this has been fun. It has been fun.