In Episode #9 of the Power Shift: Decolonising Development, Prof Kate Bird and Charmaine McCaulay, founders of this podcast series, reflect on what they have learned from the past eight episodes. Kate speaks on White fragility and ‘best White-ism’ within the development industry, and how she’s engaged in self-reflection regarding her role in the industry as a White woman. Charmaine brings up the hesitation from previous guests on the podcast to engage in self-reflection and speak to their personal experiences with racism and colonial relations of power, which clashes with her background in psychotherapy. Kate and Charmaine discuss the potential benefits of encouraging self-reflection and vulnerability within the practice of international development, in order to decolonize current practices of power and privilege.
Prof Kate Bird is Director of The Development Hub, Professor of Practice at the University of Surrey; Senior Associate at ODI and Associate with the Chronic Poverty Advisory Network.
Charmaine leads on The Development Hub’s anti-racism and decolonisation work. She is the founder and Director of Kokoro, a company specialising in anti-racism training, therapy, mentoring and coaching and brings with her over 25 years experience as a trainer and expert in addressing racism.
If you’re interested to find out more about Kate’s or Charmaine’s work, you can take a look at the Development Hub website.
Resource recommendations:
In Episode #9 of the Power Shift: Decolonising Development, Prof Kate Bird and Charmaine McCaulay, founders of this podcast series, reflect on what they have learned from the past eight episodes. Kate speaks on White fragility and ‘best White-ism’ within the development industry, and how she’s engaged in self-reflection regarding her role in the industry as a White woman. Charmaine brings up the hesitation from previous guests on the podcast to engage in self-reflection and speak to their personal experiences with racism and colonial relations of power, which clashes with her background in psychotherapy. Kate and Charmaine discuss the potential benefits of encouraging self-reflection and vulnerability within the practice of international development, in order to decolonize current practices of power and privilege.
Prof Kate Bird is Director of The Development Hub, Professor of Practice at the University of Surrey; Senior Associate at ODI and Associate with the Chronic Poverty Advisory Network.
Charmaine leads on The Development Hub’s anti-racism and decolonisation work. She is the founder and Director of Kokoro, a company specialising in anti-racism training, therapy, mentoring and coaching and brings with her over 25 years experience as a trainer and expert in addressing racism.
If you’re interested to find out more about Kate’s or Charmaine’s work, you can take a look at the Development Hub website.
Resource recommendations:
But whenever I asked them about, to self-reflect and how it had personally impacted them, what I didn't understand, and this came much later from you, Kate, was that, I was asking them to put themselves in a vulnerable position, which I'm very comfortable to do, and within my own profession, I would never assume that there'd be any kickback or I'd lose my job. Whereas what I found out later that asking these deep probing questions on how they feel about something could actually result in no funding, a lack of job, a lack of recognition, and then maybe even a backlash from their respective communities. That they might not be seen as to be credible, they might be seen to be weak, and God forbid they would be seen to be really vulnerable.
Kate:Hello, I'm Professor Kate Bird and I'd like to introduce this our ninth episode of the Power Shift Decolonizing Development. In this episode, Charmaine McCauley and I have a stock take of the first eight episodes. And we talk about the top two takeaways that we've each taken from the series so far. In doing so, we cover a number of different themes, including White fragility and'best White-ism', the need for a root-and-branch reform of the development industry. The lessons from thinking about land reform in settler colonies and intersectionality, the difficulties experts sometimes face expressing their vulnerability and their feelings because of the risk of pushback that they might experience from others in the sector, the links between feelings, thinking, and behavior, the links between personal and organizational behavior, and moving from the binaries of Black and White, North and South, majority and minority worlds. We talk about colorism and internalized racism, patriarchy and colonialism and racism and how they're linked, or how you can see kind of echoes of one in the other, and how to avoid, and if you can avoid, shifting from being oppressed to being the oppressor by taking the so-called adult role. We talk a little bit about funding management contracting and how they need to be decolonized. So I hope you listen on, enjoy the episode and I'll see you again soon. Bye for now.
Charmaine:Hi Kate. How are you doing today?
Kate:Good, thank you, Charmaine. How are you?
Charmaine:Good. Well, welcome to the Power Shift: Decolonizing Development, the podcast series seeking to bring together thinkers, practitioners, and activists to share ideas, inspire, change, and identify tools for practical action. I am Charmaine McCauley, a body psychotherapist, director of Kokoro and lead facilitator of the groundbreaking training program called Racism in Real Time. And my co-host is Professor Kate Bird, director of the Development Hub. As you can see, I am a Black psychotherapist, and a White development professional, we are using our own lived experiences and professional skills to frame the way we approach the topic of decolonization. In today's episode, we reflect on the past eight episodes, can you believe that Kate? We've done eight episodes and what we have learned about decolonizing development? Kate, what would you say are the two top things that have stuck with you from hosting this podcast series and talking to all our wonderful guests?
Kate:Well, I've learned a lot and I've learned things from each of the guests we've had, so I feel I'm, I'm slowly accumulating knowledge which is very useful for me in the work that I do in development. But I think the top two things that I'm taking away as an individual are, um, about White fragility and'best White-ism'.
Charmaine:Oh, okay!
Kate:And I think that's the number one thing, because that's something that I, as a person, need to know about and need to integrate into the way that I work and the way that I approach my work and the way that I approach interracial interactions and working in, um, an interracial team. I think the idea of White fragility and'best White-ism' is challenging and it's required quite a lot of self-reflection. And the other thing that I feel is a major takeaway for me is that the development industry is based on an idea of Othering.
Charmaine:Yes.
Kate:So the whole basis of the whole industry is based on an idea of Othering, and so it is therefore inherently racist. I suppose I, I had a kind of quiet sense of pride about the work that I do.
Charmaine:Mm-hmm.
Kate:And my reasons for doing the work that I do, I felt, you know, I was one of the good guys. Um, so this idea that my whole life's work to date has been in something that is inherently racist has been very challenging for me. Um, so it's not just that there's some behaviour by some people who are bad apples that need to be rectified, and therefore it's kind of not easily fixable, but that it can be fixed. There are things that we can do, but actually that we need to do a complete root-and-branch reform, change, shift in the development sector, development industry. So I think that's very challenging and I haven't yet worked through the full implications of that for me and my work and for the sector as a whole. This is work in progress and I'm hoping that future guests will help me to work out, um, my next steps, whether, whether actually I need to back out of the sector entirely, whether there's a role for me and other people who are White and other people in the minority world to work in and on development or not. So, so two big things, I suppose one, one is kind of personal and how I show up, and one is to do with the sector as a whole.
Charmaine:So I just wanna probe a little bit. So, as you are White and I am Black, we all can see that. Were there ever times in where you really felt that your White fragility was there on display, or maybe internally you felt it in discussing these subjects with any of the eight people that we interviewed, since that was one of the main things that you talked about?
Kate:That's, yeah, that's a really good question. I have struggled with a feeling of wanting to justify myself, wanting to justify,"well, but I'm not like that" and,"but that's not why I came into development, it's not why I do this work, I do this work for this, this, and this reason," and that sense of wanting to justify myself and my position I recognized from'the good guys'. When I'm talking to them about feminism and gender equity, and I'm like,"oh, I'm doing that thing, I'm doing that thing, that thing where: don't look at me, it's not me, it's someone else, it's over there, not me." And it's that whole thing of, well, I am benefiting from my position as a White person from my reality as a White person in a racialized world, and I need to own that, I need to own the power and the privilege that my Whiteness gives me, just in the same way that a man needs to benefit- needs to recognize the benefits he gets from patriarchy. So it's that, it's, and, and I've found that very helpful. Thinking about, um, gender and patriarchy has helped me to kind of go,"I'm doing that thing." So yes, I have experienced White fragility when talking to some of our guests when they've said something that I find personally challenging and I wanted to justify myself. So, yes.
Charmaine:Okay, great.
Kate:Okay, so I guess it's time for me to turn the tables on you, Charmaine, and to ask you what you think are the two top takeaways from you from the conversations that we've had with our guests so far. And what, if anything, has surprised you.
Charmaine:Well, there have been so many, but since I'm only limited to two, I think the first one that really surprised me, shocked me, and I'm still thinking about that and it has impacted me, is when we had the conversation with, and, excuse me, Andries du Toit if I've gotten your name incorrect, sorry about that, but I think it was, when talking to him, I think I had a very naive understanding that whenever I saw"give back land, give back land to the owners," I didn't realize how complex it was, and it was through him that I realized that it's not so simple, particularly when you have the settlers, then you have the indigenous, you have the indigenous people, then you have settlers, and then you have a newer version of people who are also coming to occupy the land. And I think I didn't understand the intersectionality of how difficult and perhaps how dangerous it is to make the decision. And I think what I was thinking with him was, who gets to make, who gets to make the decision? And like what we had talked about, who's asking the questions? And so that really struck me in terms of, I think it's the whole thing about the development issues. Who owns it, who doesn't own it? Who has, who has part treaty in it? And again, who asks the questions and then who has the right to answer those questions? So I think that's a shout out to Andries that I had not, uh, thought about. The other thing that that was quite illuminating and because I am from the psychotherapeutic world where the whole premises is about revealing who you are, a very, very deep self-reflection, it's not just on the topic, but it's how you respond to the topic involved. And I think, what what was surprising was everybody who we interviewed had a really deep understanding of the problems and the issues, and they were all excellent in helping me understand the parameters and just what the difficulties were. But whenever I asked them about, to self-reflect and how it had personally impacted them, what I didn't understand, and this came much later from you, Kate, was that, I was asking them to put themselves in a vulnerable position, which I'm very comfortable to do, and within my own profession, I would never assume that there'd be any kickback or I'd lose my job. Whereas what I found out later that asking these deep probing questions on how they feel about something could actually result in no funding, a lack of job, a lack of recognition, and then maybe even a backlash from their respective communities. That they might not be seen as to be credible, they might be seen to be weak, and God forbid they would be seen to be really vulnerable. So that, for me, was a really big takeaway. And so I'm still questioning, whether I should continue to ask the question from, from my worldview and how that impacted on the majority of the people from the, from the development community. So that was something that I'm still thinking about how to, because again, in my world, if there's no self-reflection, deep one, then how can you make decisions? Because it is who I am, what I think, what I feel when I'm vulnerable, when I'm not vulnerable, when I feel emotionally impacted or traumatized, it is always going to be from that wellspring right or wrong, that I am going to make my basic changes to what I want or what I don't want.
Kate:Yeah, I absolutely agree with you, Charmaine, and I think what we see in professional people who don't have that ability to self-reflect and to know themselves deeply as you, see what I call sideways behaviour where the kind of the feelings leak out, they may not know and own the feelings that they have, but they kind of come out sideways.
Charmaine:Yeah. Yeah.
Kate:I suppose the thing about academics, and I will put myself in that position, that box as well, is that we are trained to think that that is our whole career. Our whole education is about being trained to think. And so if, if we think about our feelings at all, we think our feelings, we don't feel our feelings. We're trained not to feel our feelings. So the questions that you are asking people about feelings, they don't necessarily have the tools to be able to answer that, that particular question in that direct way that you're asking it. And it's not just the vulnerability, it's just like,"oh, I don't know, I don't know the answer, I don't know the answer, I don't even know how to decode the question you're asking me." So I'm not sure that we should stop asking that question, but maybe we need to put some training wheels on it. So that we're actually asking a question that is answerable by an academic. So we're kind of going halfway there, and then if they can answer the halfway there question, we ask the full bells and whistles question. I don't know, because I mean, we all feel our feelings, but we don't necessarily know how to decode them very well. So I think that that's from my perspective, one of the challenges that we've faced in the interview. It's partly about vulnerability and looking vulnerable in front of your peers. And I think that's a difficult thing for academics. But it's also,"do we have the mental equipment to be able to answer that question?" and not all of us do, and, and, you know, feeling our feelings, whoa, that's scary. Oh my god.
Charmaine:So it's quite, um, intriguing to me because I've been trained to think also, but I've also been equally trained to feel, and that there's a joining up, there isn't a difference between thinking and feeling. It's all one. So, and again, it is just a little bit surprising. Again, my naivete, in a sense, of dealing with a different professional world and having a different professional attitude and forum with which people being asked. So, in a way, I agree with you that we should put training wheels on, but I also think that there's something about, my questions are coming completely out, out of left field so they, it can't be rehearsed, it can't be a pat answer, I think sometimes, I'm seeing the academic squirm a little bit, feeling uncomfortable to take them out of their comfort zone. I think sometimes that's a good thing. It it, it forces them to re-be, let's say, in the professional world.
Kate:Yeah, and I mean, I think the issues that we're dealing with here, they are deeply personal. And it's how the personal links with the institutional or the organizational, you know, how you behave in a group, in a collective, in teams, in interactions. It's how, it's how that organization then behaves towards individuals outside the organization. You know, whether you are commissioning someone, whether you are working in partnership, whether you are contracting someone and I think in the development sector there's a lot of inter-country work and there's a lot of international work, um, where the personal influences the institutional behaviour and the institutional behaviour then impacts on the individual. So if you're not acknowledging how you are behaving as an individual and how your behaviour as an individual is framed by your feelings, if you're disconnected from your feelings, then this sideways behaviour that I was talking about happens and people can be clumsy or actively nasty, you know? And it's, and it's how we perhaps use our podcast series to help people reflect so that the clumsiness is reduced, and perhaps if they're being nasty, they're a bit more able to clock that and actually say,"oh, maybe I'm using my position and my power and my privilege in a way that's not kind. That's not nice." I'm not saying everyone needs to go around with kind of niceness wings, like little angel niceness wings, but, but if you're being actively unpleasant and you're using your racial privilege to be actively unpleasant and yet you are working in development, perhaps you need to kind of be a bit aware of that.
Charmaine:And also this is not like, I'm hoping that one of the things that we do is not just keep the podcast in a binary Black against White, North against South. Because I'm also reflecting on people who come on and I suppose the wider, um, subscribes to the development world, they're also talking about internalized racism, internalized oppression. So when you get one group of people from one country who may be darker or lighter, whatever you wanna call it, different sense of shades, and they are in the, um, they are in the professional world, they are in the power of hierarchy. They too may be being unkind as you say it, and rather nasty from the position of privilege because their shade is lighter. Or even men who, so we are also talking patriarchy and that can infiltrate all sectors, whether you're White or you are Black or you're coming from the global majority. And I think that is something also to be able to let's say develop aid, give support to when it is clusters of marginalized people in one form. But when you take it out of another form, you also become in the position of power. How do you communicate that? What are the skills involved? Are you, and that's where I think the self-reflection really has to come involved because I know for, for me, for example, as a very dark Black woman, woman, when I'm in, when I'm in certain situations, the rank and file is the darker I am, the less power that I have. That's just the way it has been set up, unfortunately. And so sometimes when I am the main speaker and I am in a position of power, what can sometimes gets rattled is if there's somebody who's a shade lighter than me, or if there's somebody who's mixed raced. And then how do we then negotiate what needs to be negotiated from a, from a position of equity? And if I'm not realizing my own power as being Black, and in some situation, I do have more power than a Black and Brown or mixed race person. Not always, but there are those instances. And if I'm not self-reflecting on my own internalized racism, in my own internalized oppression and in my own internalized being the oppressor, whatever agenda that I want to set, whatever it is that I want to work in coming together, I can inadvertently, um, destabilize that and end up being the oppressor. And so I think for us, I think that's one thing that I think the two of us could really champion and challenge that and set up courses for whoever it is. When do we become the internalized oppressor? What happens when we are in the oppressor, in the oppressive position? What do we do to fight up? What do we do to fight down? What do we do to fight sideways that might not necessarily get the goals that you and I are thinking about? So I think the podcasts can be really wide and exposing and have some really credible teaching goals and teaching skills that we could actually do for everybody.
Kate:I really like that Charmaine and I think I completely agree with you and I know that Eyob, one of our speakers, talked about decolonizing your mind and the need to decolonize your mind. And I, it's not just," just", it's not just BIPOC folk, people of colour who need to be aware of their internalized oppression. It's also White folk who need to be aware of their internalized power and privilege and how they might unconsciously adopt a whole set of roles which, which put them into the oppressor role. And I think in a way what you are talking about is the triangle of kind of victim, perpetrator and adult.
Charmaine:Exactly.
Kate:And what you are asking is that everyone actually steps into the, into being that adult self.
Charmaine:Exactly.
Kate:So that in, in interactions with each other, they're not, they're not either slipping into the victim mode or the victimizer mode. Neither oppressor nor oppressee, but, but the stepping into that their higher self and learning both the mental tools and perhaps the professional tools and the institutional and organizational tools to be able to be, you know, the better self. And thinking about how that can, how that can play out in a practical sense in development work. And that's something that I really want to get from this podcast series is, is how we can provide people with tools, not just for thinking, not just for being an armchair critic. Because I'm really interested in practical action. I really want to see improvement out there in the world, progressive, progressive change. Um, so what are the tools and you are very well equipped to support people to develop those interpersonal tools. I'm not, that's not my world, but I'm aware of some of the questions that we need to ask to improve professional practice in the development sector, the development industry. And I suppose what I'm wanting to get to is, is personally to have a toolbox that I can apply in my work.
Charmaine:Yes.
Kate:Where I can feel less compromised actually, that I'm not, I'm not compromised in the work that I do, in the way that I do it. I want to kind of feel clean that I'm doing, I'm doing a good job in a good way. Because I haven't always felt that, you know, so I would, I want to feel good in my gut that I'm doing, I'm, I'm just, and I think that's about having tools. I think some of it's about practical stuff, but I think it's also about fixing what we have in our heads and the way we interact with each other.
Charmaine:Yeah. You know, I totally get that. And, you know, to me that's, that gut feeling or when we are, when we are in that position and we have felt an attack and we discombobulate. Our whole body goes off screen, our whole body goes off wire. You know, I would like to provide the tools, number one, to actually know when you've gone off, know what your body is doing. I think a lot of times we don't know, we've just disassociated, we've gone off thinking about cooking or, or doing my son's shoes or whatever it is, and it's really important to know when, when that has occurred in you. Because oftentimes when we don't know, we can retaliate very, very, very quickly. And then what are we getting? We're getting an adversarial position and neither side, both sides has now been drawn in. The real goals have been taken off the table, and this is where the self-reflection comes in. You have to know when the goal's been taken off the table and when now you feel it's personal. Almost everything that happens to us within the group, whatever, whatever intellectual capacity that we may have, it will still come down to how your body has received it, how your body has interpreted, and then what are your options or order? Either, are you gonna fight back? And sometimes you do need, you do need to fight back. Are you gonna disappear? What are the tools that you can have to bring you back to the table in a safe way? I mean, it has to be very safe. So then both people, or all the people in the group can come back and go, okay, because if there's five people in the room, and let's say it's you and I who've just been taken off the table, I tell you every person in the room will be impacted by that. You cannot not be.
Kate:Yeah.
Charmaine:Each person in the room will either decide you're with me or against me, and it's like the whole group culture then like what you're talking about. So in the group culture, in that room, they also have to do some self-reflecting and decide,"Oh, well I don't think what she did was good. Take her out."
Kate:Yeah.
Charmaine:So what I'm saying in this group culture that we want to cultivate, we have to recognize, like say I'm a White person and do I, do I go with the flow and I side with my White counterparts against a Black and Brown person? And, and we don't, we don't even know that we've just done that as a collective. So it's also about that. And so when we're talking about group, and I think groups are really, really important because it's through that, we can kind of learn self-reflection, we can also look around at everybody and see what they're doing and what is our part in moving the thing forward.
Kate:Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think you're absolutely right. And I think also something to bear in mind is a lot of interaction in the development industry is done by email. And so a lot of interaction is through electronic means. It's either email or it's Teams chat, or it's chat in a Zoom call. So a lot of it is remote and there's also the issue of how interpersonal interactions are framed by Terms of Reference, by contracts, by so-called partnership agreements or partnerships and partnerships that aren't actually partnerships that are actually contracts.
Charmaine:Right?
Kate:So I think some of this we really need to look at, not just the interpersonal, um, interactions, but how those get embedded in the way that we work in international teams and through international contracts and through teams and contracts, virtual or actual, within organizations.
Charmaine:Yeah.
Kate:Because I think some of this racialized, these racialized interactions and these interracial personal interactions are not straightforwardly arranged. They're arranged through institutions.
Charmaine:Hmm.
Kate:And it's also to do with how the money flows and who controls the money. So if you're being funded by an external organization, who's, who holds the money? Who holds the pot, what status do they have in the organization? And is there an intersection between that status and race?
Charmaine:Right.
Kate:Quite often there is
Charmaine:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate:Is there an interaction between that and being in Europe or America, in a rich country, and having a working relationship with somebody in the majority world who is also a BIPOC person, a person of colour. And I think it's when you get those intersections of power, institutional and organizational arrangements and contracting arrangements, funding arrangement, that things get really messy and really complex, and it's some of those things that I really want to get to the heart of. I'm not sure that we will with this podcast series, but I'm really hoping that we do. I want to invite guests on that can answer some of those really tricky questions.
Charmaine:And I'm in agreement. Yeah, I think so too. And uh, and that's something to look forward to in working with you and again getting the right people on board with us and being able to ask those difficult questions because there's no point in asking, you know, somebody about Einstein's theory of relativity, and that's not your thing. Like, that doesn't, that doesn't make sense, right? So we need to really think about who we want, and maybe stylize a little bit more, the kinds of questions that we can get the answers to that we wanna ask. Sounds good.
Kate:So looking forwards over the next few podcast interviews, I'm really looking forward to getting some practical people on, some practitioners who can begin to answer some of the questions around things like funding.
Charmaine:Yeah.
Kate:And, like, reparations. So some challenging things around funding, not just like, you know, who funds who and how does it work? But, you know, taking the question to a big level and then kind of saying,"okay, well, maybe that's the goal. How do we get there? What's the journey? What's the direction of travel? And what are the interim measures?" Because, I've used the analogy before of us trying to mend a car while we're driving it. So, you know, mending a car while we're driving it, and when we only have control of this little tiny widget.
Charmaine:Yeah.
Kate:And other people are controlling all the other widgets and the other, you know, other parts of the engine. We can only control this little bit over here. So, I think asking big questions, and being aware that we can only move a step at a time is the challenge, that kind of creative tension, I think, um, I think is something I want us to be aware of going forwards.
Charmaine:Well, I think that we're almost done here. I think we've asked all the questions and got our answers, that we needed. Do you have anything else you would like to ask?
Kate:I did have a challenging question to ask you, Charmaine, and that was, you work professionally as a somatic psychotherapist.
Charmaine:Yes.
Kate:And you've been exposed to a whole load of people from the development industry, and I know you've found it quite surprising.
Charmaine:Yes.
Kate:But I've got a question that leads from that, which is, how do you feel being involved in this podcast as a woman of colour with me as a White woman, because I know there's a critique out there in the world that hasn't been directly applied to us yet, but that, White people move into the decolonization space and then they partner with a person of colour to provide them with a fig leaf of legitimacy and authenticity. So I was just, this hasn't come to us as a critique yet, but I just, I think it's worth us exploring that as a couple of women here together.
Charmaine:Well, it's a good question, and just off the top of my head, number one, I understand the reason why you're asking the question, but it also presupposes and then there's a stereotype that I've been placed in, that because I'm Black, I'm gonna be thinking these things. Actually, it didn't occur to me that way. I thought that the way that we came about doing was really organic and I simply really wanted to learn about a sector that I didn't know about. So, my thinking about Black and White in this instance, I mean, I've thought about in this one, it didn't occur to me. And, to think that I could be lured in, it suggests that I don't have agency. I don't get lured too often unless I'm talking like I'm on on some kind of sex date or something. But, but this is just straight up development. So there was no luring, uh, there was no catching no trap for me. I willingly came in because I just thought, I don't know about your world and it was really intriguing and for me it was, I really felt that we could put our various skills together and work really well. And so far I've found that out. So I like the question and I can really appreciate how people outside of our worlds might think about that. But again, it begs the question that I'm not a stereotypical Black person, a Black woman, and I do have my sense of agency, I do have my own way of deciding what I wanna do and who I do my work with, which is chosen more from my heart, which is about you, Kate.
Kate:I think that's a lovely answer and reassuring on a personal level, but also you've answered it in a very robust way, which is"I'm my own person. I'm my own person, thank you very much". And I know that to be true from all the conversations that we've had leading up to this podcast series and us working together, but also in the conversations that we have before and after we do our recordings. We kind of brief and debrief each other, and I absolutely know you not to be a puppet, but I thought it was a useful question to ask because, um, not everyone knows our history, and how we came to work on this podcast series together. So, that's definitely all the questions that I have for now. So I don't know if you, if you have any final questions for me.
Charmaine:No, I just want to say, how well we work together. We really do come from two different organizations, two different mindsets, two different body sets. But I really like the way that we collaborate and I really like the guests that we've had on so far. So I feel like I'm really committed to creating something with you and I think that we're doing for the betterment of the world. So yeah, that's, I think that's what I'd like to say. So thank you. It's good. All good.
Kate:Thank you. Thank you. Charmaine, I think you bring some questions that I would never ask, and a robust sense of challenge to both me and to our speakers, which is very, very welcome. And I'm not sure if the listeners and viewers get to, to see this, but we also have quite a giggle together, which is always lovely as well.
Charmaine:Yeah.
Kate:So I think this is a good point to wrap up for today. And to ask our listeners and viewers to subscribe and watch this space for the next, set of interviews in this podcast series, which will be drilling down on the practical issues and the what to do and how to do it in decolonizing development. So thanks everyone, and goodbye for now. Thank you everybody, and goodbye. Take care of your hearts. Bye-bye.