The Power Shift: Decolonising Development

Unpacking how identity manifests in racialised bodies through feminist approaches. Kenza Ben Azouz interviewed.

• Kate Bird • Season 1 • Episode 44

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In this week’s episode, we interview Kenza Ben Azouz, gender expert trained in feminist research and anthropology from Tunisia, and the newest addition to the Dev Hub team. Kenza tells us about feminist culture of care and the importance of rest in order to be able to reflect and act differently.

Kenza draws on Black feminism and Global South feminist scholars to contextualise the complexities of intersectional identities. We also discuss imposter syndrome and how it manifests in racialised bodies. 

Kenza also talks about her lived experience as a French Tunisian woman, and how race and identity interact in her self-perception and her activism.

Kenza Ben Azouz is a gender expert trained in feminist research and anthropology from Tunisia. She has worked with various human rights and development organisations (both grassroots and international) across West and North Africa and South West Asia. Her work has mostly focused on gender-based violence, systemic racism, and structural development challenges. Kenza holds a BA in political science and philosophy from McGill University (Montreal, Canada) and a MA in social anthropology of development from SOAS University (London, UK). Kenza is also a Yoga teacher and contemporary dancer. 

If you’re interested to find out more about Kenza's work, take a look here:

Recent work:

Recommended resources:

Kate:

Welcome to the Power Shift Decolonising Development, the podcast series seeking to bring together thinkers, practitioners, and activists to share ideas, inspire change, and identify tools for practical action. I'm Professor Kate Bird, a socio-economist and Director of the Development Hub. Today's co host is Dr. Nompilo Ndlovu. Over to you, Nompilo.

Nompilo:

Thank you, Kate. I am Dr. Nompilo Ndlovu. I am a Zimbabwean living and working in South Africa. I'm an oral historian who applies gender frameworks to my work with communities in Africa. Recent work has included involvement in a mixed method study on poverty dynamics in Zimbabwe, where I led the work on gender and marginalisation. My PhD focus on mass violence, memory, and local transitional justice in post colonial Zimbabwe. Back to you, Kate.

Kate:

Thanks, Nompilo. Today, we're talking to Kenza Ben Azouz, an intersectional feminist, qualitative researcher, and recent addition to the DevHub team. Kenza is a gender expert trained in feminist research and anthropology from Tunisia. She's worked with various human rights and development organisations, both grassroots and international across West and North Africa and Southwest Asia. Her work has mostly focused on gender based violence, systemic racism, and structural development challenges. Kenza holds a BA in Political Science and Philosophy from McGill University in Montreal, Canada, and an MA in Social Anthropology of Development from SOAS University in London, the UK. Kenza is also a yoga teacher and contemporary dancer. And I would encourage you to take a look at the show notes below to find out more about Kenza and have a look at her on our website as well. So Nompilo, I'm going to hand back to you to ask the first initial questions. Okay.

Nompilo:

Hello, Kenza. It's great to meet you again today. I wonder if we can start our conversation today by you telling the audience a little bit about yourself.

Kenza:

Thanks, Kate, for the introduction and thank you, Nompilo. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to introduce myself a little bit outside of my bio and professional description. So as you mentioned, Kate, I'm from Tunisia. I'm actually French Tunisian, and I spent most of my life in Tunisia until I traveled internationally for work and for educational purposes. So I never lived in France. That's a bit about me. And you've mentioned also my academic background, and I would like to state again, coming back to this experience of conducting Master's in Social Anthropology of Development, because truly I think this is where my self concept kind of deepened and I was able to extract myself from the setting I grew up in and worked in in order to reflect more on who I am. And this is where I realised that I wasn't just French Tunisian, that I'm actually mixed race, white, Arab woman. I used this Master's as an opportunity to look at blackness and whiteness in Tunisia and understand the coloniality of race issues, how Africanity is understood within Tunisia, how normalised and invisibilised whiteness is within Tunisia. This has really been a self discovery journey through the academic, also very personal lens. I've gotten really interested in understanding the politics of duty, the coloniality, and the legacies of not only trans-Saharan slavery in North Africa or the Maghreb, but also how current geopolitical contemporary settings are informing anew how race is created and hierarchies are maintained. And I think also in addition to my academic background, a lot of my interpersonal relationships have informed how I understand myself. And I think I mean, both of you come from a region that for me has contributed a lot. I have Tunisian family living in South Africa and an excellent friend who is colored, which, you know, I think this interactivity, reflecting on the relationality of race has really helped me understand how both the oppressed and the oppressor live within me as a white Arab woman. Yeah. So in a nutshell, this is what I would like to add about myself and how I perceived myself.

Nompilo:

All righty, thank you for that. Kenza, you started your professional life working in the humanitarian sector. I can actually understand that quite a bit because that was my initial journey. Could you tell us a bit about your experiences of the sector, the driver to withdraw from full time work in the sector, and the personal and professional journey you have been on so far?

Kenza:

Sure. So I started my experience quite young, actually, in professionally joining the humanitarian setting. I think because of my advantage, speaking multiple languages, and I was able to kind of jump into the sector at quite a young and uninformed age, I believe. So I got the chance to work in Greece and the migration response on different islands, which was very much like a microcosm of very macro global politics and European racism and border controls and, you know, racialisation within very clear and structured orders in camps and refugee settings. After that, I've also worked in West Africa, especially in Nigeria, working on very large scale, cash interventions. And frankly, I don't very much associate to this professional setting anymore, which is also why it's not part of my bio, for a diversity of reasons which have been well established and studied. So, you know, classically a very thorough white saviorism that I was witnessing also at a young age, so still quite surprised. And then I think, you know, aside from this very clear white saviorism agenda interference, failed interventions that are then recast into different descriptions that are supposed to make interventions look coherent and sensitive, while very often reproducing certain forms of neo colonial agendas. Personally, what I was witnessing the most was practices that felt very capitalistic and extractivist. So ultimately, I felt like I was working more into a financial institution, trying to advance its goals and working day and night with certain forms of abuse and self abuse among the staff that were completely normalised. Certain self concepts also as being expatriates and having this certain very normalised form of privileges. So I think actually the factors were very multifaceted and I think it's only through time and hindsight and retrospectively that I kind of understood why I had escaped this universe and why it didn't correspond to what kind of social impact I was trying to have. And I felt like I was actually replicating what I did not want to be contributing to. Of course, there are programs that do have very positive and interesting settings, but I don't think I had the chance to work on the most critically and self aware projects that are now kind of emerging thanks to feminist leadership also on these issues and trying to modify some of the practices. So yeah, I did personally observe a lot of bullying from being a young woman within these settings, practices, white normativity, and also on a very personal front, um, in 2019, my best friend, who was also an aid worker and her Nigerian partner were murdered, and this is obviously a very complex setting and situation, configuration, which had happened, but on a completely personal note, I felt like there had been potentially a lack of duty of care or security concerns that weren't addressed as it should be. And I think for me, that was very much a deep awakening call to be very intentional about my reflections around what I was doing professionally, what I was trying to achieve, at what cost and and how and why and what we were losing into this on the very molecular level almost. I think I had been made aware and I was critical in my thinking, but I wasn't feeling into the bones as this trauma and grief had forced me to do. And it's still taking years and I'm still comprehending this, but I think this has radically changed my approach to how I want to work and honor also these people. So yeah, coming back to the life trajectory, in a more generic phase, after this, I was able to work more into human rights sector, actually, which is very different in some ways from humanitarianism, because I found that the kind of the ethos was very much individuals feeling quite useless, actually, because they're using frameworks that sometimes are very difficult to have a very concrete impact. So the attitude was quite different from humanitarianism, white saviorism, where people aren't thinking that they're here to be pretty much the stars and game changers and, you know, the big negotiators with donors, et cetera. So the power dynamics, the self reflectivity also is different. And I was able to analyze human rights through also my academic background in social anthropology. So bringing a more critical lens, et cetera. So I found a lot of interest in there. And since I've also been working as a consultant, so having more agency in terms of how I both display my working hours, the specific issues I want to work with, how I interrelate with individuals, and I found a lot of opportunities to reclaim more of myself in the work that I'm doing. Of course, there are pitfalls to be avoided and negotiations are constant, but yeah, luckily I've had the privilege of being able to at a young age, withdraw from the institutions. where I found some structural constraints that couldn't allow me to feel that I was completely aligned with what I believed in and why I was doing this work. Sorry, long answer.

Nompilo:

Not at all. Thank you for sharing such personal and traumatic experiences. And, you know, the reminder of so many different people who have come in and just shared what structural power, positionality has done, especially in some of these huge organisations. I really just wanted to draw on two things that you said before I move on to the next question, if that's okay. I just like that you spoke about how your use of different languages and your understanding of them and your identity as something of a skill set, which I definitely think when we start talking about a decolonial era, then we understand that a skill set isn't necessarily a degree, but your ability to move in and out of spaces. And your ability to hear what the person on the ground is saying because of intuitive language ability or an intuition about what identity means. So I really like that you really started touching on that ageism, the role of being in the humanitarian sector, which is run on ageism and how that also impacts everything. But more than that, I often hear a lot of us when we start talking about culture of care as professionals, we'll often try to not only focus on rest, but you have been very clear from the onset, you're very much about yoga, you're very much about reflection and stuff. And I'm really enjoying this move, where we start seeing feminists being okay about the fact that they use the creative side of themselves as actually part of their skill set and decoloring our practice. And a part of cultural care for themselves. So I really just like that as pronounced, because we often think the softer skills are not important, but they actually are, so I really just like that thought process. Let me move on to the next question. You draw on black feminisms, female power, passion, you know, personal interest. You explore how this can bring the whole selves to their lives and work. Similarly to some of the comments I've shared. So can you tell us a little bit more about this and why you believe that women taking rest is a revolutionary and decolonising act?

Kenza:

Sure. Thank you for the question. So, black feminism is a treasure I've had the chance to be exposed to quite young to my academic studies, but I think I was still into a fallacy of formativity, capitalism kind of performance that didn't allow me to really let that sink into my body and mind, into life and how I structured the architecture of my life. But recently, I think having the ability to not only gain more time for consulting but also having more fluidity in terms of how this time was managed and also I think some degree of aloneness or not being constantly surrounded by individuals who were maintaining these roles and structures, having kind of this isolation allowed me to rethink how I wanted to use the spare time that I was creating. And so, therein, I was able to dig a little bit deeper into dance and yoga, and to also be very decolonial in my approach to dance and yoga. Not seeing it as a leisure, or again, you know, I mean, these are spaces that can be extremely violent also, reinforce trauma, racism. Creating hierarchies of bodies, white supremacy, these are things that I noticed definitely almost as much in yoga as in humanitarian work. So I was able to create something that was kind of merging both my experiences, my view of race issues and black feminism, in particularly Audre Lorde's work on the erotic force and the power of this force. And what is meant here is really this contact with our intuition with, at a very cellular level, a power that all individuals hold, but women in particular because of their history of marginalisation, ancestral practices, et cetera. So, I mean, there's a whole field to jump into in there, but in a nutshell it was about deconstructing kind of the white fathers, as she describes it, very linear, rigid, so called objective approach to life and kind of bringing other women into a space where they're able to allow themselves to have very multiple dimension and to kind of put on hold this pursuit of a coherent kind of profile background and in practice, so both in terms of movement and what we're doing into that space, but also to reflect them into their life, where they're letting themselves be small, rejecting certain emotions, et cetera. And as part of that is also rest. So tuning into where we're abusing ourselves and letting go some of our power because we want to perform something. And to really see how we can be more into our own sensations. And I do think rest is, in this sense, vital to women, to their self care, to their ability to then live on in a healthy and integral way. But I just want to clarify that I don't believe that it is in itself, revolution. I think it is necessary to being revolutionary, but it is not sufficient. I think you should look at it as something very complimentary. Although that said, rest is disruptive and simply creating this space, allowing conversations around this can be something that especially women who suffer more from the imposter syndrome, et cetera, are less likely, I believe, to partake into discussing. Otherwise, I believe they'd be like them as lazy or whatever capitalistic narrative we want to launch onto it. But yeah, I do think it is deeply, deeply necessary to have that space and to then be able to reflect and act differently. But yeah, it is not sufficient, I would say.

Nompilo:

Thank you for that very deep thought. I will hand over to you, Kate, to proceed further.

Kate:

So Kenza, I just want to reflect a little bit on some of the things that you've told us. I really like the philosophy that you're bringing to your work and the way that you take a very integral approach and you're bringing your whole self to the work, that's something I really appreciate. And I love the words that you used earlier in the interview where you were talking about reclaiming yourself. And I think a very large part of decolonising ourselves, and I would include white people in that because white people have also internalised all the structures of white supremacy and that's very damaging for our minds and our bodies as well. So I think we all need to reclaim ourselves. And I love the ideas behind Ubuntu leadership, where we bring our whole selves to work. And the approach that you're talking about is that that work is there and work is part of life and revolution is part of life. And you're bringing your whole self to your life. You're not just bringing your whole self to your work, but you're bringing your whole self to your life. And work is part of life, but it's not the whole of life. And I like the way that when you're thinking about rest and the revolutionary action of rest and taking rest, it's taking a pause so that you can show up more fully. And I really like that. And, and you mentioned imposter syndrome just towards the end of your last, uh, response to nonpilo. And I've thought quite a bit about imposter syndrome because in the past I've really experienced it very, very strongly. And I think that perhaps imposter syndrome is more experienced certainly by women than by men. Having spoken to women of color, it's experienced very strongly by women of color. And I think it's more reflective of people who are sensitive to the messages that they are being given by those around them. So when women experience microaggressions in the form of patriarchy or where people of color are expect experiencing racist microaggressions, if you experience imposter syndrome, it's simply that you are sensitive to the messaging that you are being given. And, while you might be being told to toughen up and man up about the environment that you're in, you're simultaneously being told not to be you. You're being told to present yourself in a male way or present yourself in a white way. So you are actually code switching. You're being asked to code switch and to be different. And if you have a feeling of discomfort, it's the dissonance between your true self, your whole self, and showing up as you truly are. And I think in working to bring anti racist thinking into organisations and into the work that we do in global development and humanitarian action and the feminist movement, then surely we want to turn up as our whole selves. And imposter syndrome, I think is a nonsense because it's just a flag. It's a red flag that's coming up and saying something's going on here. We need to pay attention. So that's just my reflection on what you've been saying. And one of the things I've really enjoyed listening to you and in talking to in our prior conversations before this podcast is that when I'm speaking to you, I'm speaking to somebody who is a properly trained anthropologist I'm an economist. So you're putting words and structures to kind of fuzzy feelings that I've got. You've actually got the analytical tools to go, hey, this is what's happening. I'm going, yes. Oh my God. Yes. That's it. You've nailed it. So I absolutely love the way that you've described things in the interview so far, because it really resonates with me. And the rejection of capitalistic self exploitation really speaks to me. I love that because I think we all need a bit of that. But I'd like to move on to my next question now, and that is to ask you if you can tell us a little bit more about what has influenced your worldview. So, you told us previously that you are mixed race or biracial, you are Arabic French. And, I wonder if you can say a little bit more about that experience and how you think it has influenced you in your work and in your life.

Kenza:

Yeah, thank you for that question. We're too rarely asked to reflect about this quite openly, and I think there's a lot of value in it. So as I mentioned before, in Tunisia, the language of race is very much erased in a similar way to France. And this is also a colonial legacy and colonial tool also to deprive us from the ability to talk about race. And if you casually mention race in Tunisia, or they also feel comfortable and generalised to say North Africa, you're perceived as being racist, actually, which is, you know, quite typical setting. That is also the case in France. So, you know, you have a basic race colorblind approach of saying it's not okay to discuss race. So this has really been an impediment to generational and collective reflection on these matters. I do think that now things are slowly starting to evolve, but basically through Tunisia's history as a French protectorate and basically colony of France, Tunisia and the wider region were very much phrased as, you know, white Africa. This was the part of Africa that could be salvaged or reappropriated to look more like us as in Europeans. And so, even in post colonial era in Tunisia, the dictators that we had, whether Habib Bourguiba or followed by Ben Ali, have very much tried to maintain this myth of whiteness, which was either through the erasure of black Tunisians who constitute, I mean, it's difficult to put figures on race because it's such a relative and relational concept, but about 10 to 15 percent of Tunisia's population is black and there's a reluctancy to see that and to completely integrate and reflect this composition of Tunisia's body because it is so keen to perceive itself as white Arabs. So there's this element, but the other side of the coin is that also Tunisians are unaware of their own whiteness. So of course, in contact with other whites or French in Tunisia, they do perceive that they are not the same. So it's this constant reimagining of the selves that has been theorised quite wonderfully also in Lebanon by Ghassan Hage, Sarah Ahmed, Palestinian Australian feminist has an incredible work on how whiteness infiltrates our bodies and minds in a very invisible way. And I think for me, because I am French Tunisian, it was quite, in some ways, even harder to identify how whiteness was expressing itself in me and how I was expressing it onto myself and not to the world around me because it was something I have to reflect on because I just felt like I was half white and mixed, but I wasn't able to really pinpoint how the dialectic between being both really manifested in myself. And I'm still reflecting very much onto it. But I do think that even entering academia, it took me a really long time and it's very recent to feel like I was legitimate to what I take into certain conversation because perhaps I didn't speak in the exact language that I thought I need to speak with or I didn't perform or also physically present myself as a certain upper class white body that I thought I had to be in order to access certain ranks of academic conversations that I was pursuing, et cetera. And again, you know, this speaks to what I mentioned earlier in terms of the white father's fallacy of a certain rationality and linearity and completely objective and kind of asepticised version of myself that I thought I needed to become. I mean, this is a very circular conversation for me that I do believe and hope it will never end because it is allowing me to constantly reflect on myself and see how race is and will continue to manifest within me.

Kate:

That's really interesting. Thank you. And, I know that you're joining us here today from Colombia, and you're in Colombia at the moment for a series of dance workshops which I think is a truly wonderful reason to be in Colombia. I was in Colombia just over a year ago, and dance permeates everything. If people have a chance to dance in a restaurant, if there's a space in a restaurant, they'll stand up and dance. If there's a pause in a workshop, they'll stand up and dance. It's a very dancey place. So I love the fact that that's why you're there, and that's what you're doing in Colombia, and you've traveled such a long distance to go and do that. I think it's a really, it's a really beautiful thing. So, for me, that's an indication of the way that you are integrating your whole self into your work and the way you live your life as a radical reclaiming, and an avoiding of exploitation and self exploitation, which is such a big feature of the global development and humanitarian sectors, I think. Before we finish up our interview, we've talked a lot about, you know, self reflection and race and identity and positionality, and I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit about how you feel your understanding influences the way you engage with qualitative research, because you are a qualitative researcher, and one of your specialist areas is to do very thoughtful, qualitative research and you also use qualitative tools and methods in monitoring and evaluation and in your work as a feminist. So I wonder if you could just apply some of what you've been telling us so far and some of the technical professional skills that you have and talk to our audience about how the lens that you have that is looking at race and power and patriarchy influences your selection of tools and the way that you work.

Kenza:

Thank you for the question. So I've had a big chance to work at multiple locations with someone who I consider as an angel for me in qualitative research. Her name is Kim Wilson, and I've had the chance to be introduced to quite original tools of data collection, whether it involves actually drawing with different research participants or also expressing their perspectives of their lives through life charts. And what really what we're doing was to erase the kind of linear filter that we can sometimes quite unconsciously impose upon research participants when we're conducting interviews. So this has allowed me to kind of see the multiple facets in their lives, seeing also how I could analyze information that they were providing, describing themselves, but also the milieu from which they were talking, their emotions, their look, the way they were holding themselves, speaking to me. So I've taken to the habit of describing not only the information that I was being told or receiving or extracting sometimes, but actually trying to show, to expose myself also how I also was presenting myself. How I interacted with research participants before and after, how power dynamics were also expressed within the research interaction itself. Yeah, I think it's also staying very close to the words that participants use, although sometimes, I mean, most cases it has not been in their own language that needs to be a translation, but using quite verbatim their expressions. And yeah, I've also had the chance to use photography. So these are some of the tools through which I try to reflect the multidimensionality of their lives. And there's also been a wonderful podcast I've listened to recently by Professor Kristalli, who is a feminist researcher I've had the chance to exchange on a few times about again, the politics of beauty and how whiteness was reproduced in Tunisia and elsewhere, et cetera. And she spoke about, in that podcast, which I provide for the listeners in the description below the video, about how love is perceived in international politics and international relations politics and studies, et cetera, and how it is very often removed from research participant's lives. So it's as if it's something that they do not experience or that we focus very much on conflict and violence. And that way we're kind of making them personas that reenact our description and analysis very much coming from the Global North of their lives and dynamics and erasing agency, individuality, and. their own knowledge and epistemologies and embodied experiences. So it's still, luckily and excitingly, I still have a lot to learn in this domain, but hopefully I keep drawing dots between them. And I hope one day to use dance and embodied movement as part of a research practice. That would be very much a great opportunity for me to explore in the future.

Kate:

That would be very interesting. So thank you for talking us through the toolbox that you use and I'm really looking forward to actually working with you in a research project and seeing what I can learn from you and what I can teach you and have a kind of two way process of learning and sharing. I think that's going to be really lovely. So, the last question is to ask you what, other than personal transformation and the inner work, you would recommend to our audience as the very first step that they could take or the place where they could put their energy and drive if they want to contribute to anti racism and decolonising the global development and humanitarian sectors. So what's the first step or what's the place they should put their energy from your perspective?

Kenza:

I think this is such an important question because we, there is, you know, among the few individuals who have the privilege and opportunity and curiosity to dig deeper into how they can contribute to decoloniality better. There is also, you know, huge pressure and any risk of burnout, et cetera, with regards to certain feelings of powerlessness that we can feel. And I think what is very important here is to come back to connect very deeply the inner work and the outer work. The outer work is absolutely necessary, but both are equally vital as I see it. But I do think that outer work has to be defined by the inner work. By that I mean that individuals through exploring both the wounds of coloniality in themselves should also learn to ideally understand what kind of senses are most important in their own composition, what they can actually do. I do think each of our objectives or abilities in terms of decoloniality have to be highly individual in order to be sensitive and very sincere. So activism will look like very different things for different individuals. For some, it would be physical protest outside, for others it might be conversations, arts, geeking into financial institutions and what alternatives we can find, how we can use our money better. So I do think we do need a very large cohort of skills and abilities and especially find, you know, there is a lot about joy activism out there, and I do think it's important to find the joy, but this joy also needs to be very intentional about seeing what you can create, where you can find your very own purpose. Otherwise, I do think there is a risk of burning out because the tasks are very large. So yes, I would say it's about creativity. And if we do have the time, I'd love to read a very short paragraph from Tuck and Yang that is called Decolonising is not a metaphor. I read it in the context of a class on decolonising yoga, and for me, it really hit the nail on the head. I don't know how to use this expression, but I would like to read it. So"we don't intend to discourage those who have dedicated careers and lives to teaching themselves and others to be critically conscious of racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, xenophobia, and settler colonialism. We're asking them, you, to consider how the pursuit of critical consciousness, the pursuit of social justice through critical enlightenment, can also be settler moves to innocence. Diversions, distractions, which relieve the settler of feelings of guilt or responsibility and conceal the need to give up land or power or privilege." And I think this is extremely important because although there would be the pleasures of seeing what we can contribute, I think there needs to be a letting go. There needs to be a certain loss or something to be given away and shed away in order to free yourself from a certain privilege, and to truly both on an individual level, but also at an important symbolic level, give away some privilege because as long as we keep on holding to this certain power, and this is a negotiation that is to be done constantly, seeing where actually I can let go a bit more of myself and provide for someone else. And of course, I cannot finish this interview without also using a reference to Audre Lorde's work, because it's been so important to my worldview. And I think here it's got a nice complementarity with this kind of materialistic and political contribution that is to be made. And it's from Poetry is Not a Luxury."Our acts against oppression become integral with self, motivated and empowered from within. In touch with the erotic, I become less willing to accept powerlessness or those others supplied states of being which are not native to me, such as resignation, despair, self effacement, depression, and anxiety." So I think both concepts should really sink in and merge together in ourselves to find how we can both live out a decolonial agenda, but also a fuller and more meaningful life together.

Kate:

That's lovely. Thank you so much. So in that last little bit, you talked about joy and nourishing yourself and living a full life. And I think that's such a great note to end on, because often when we're talking about social justice and social change, it feels quite hard. It feels like you're kind of trying to roll a great big boulder uphill. And if you stop in the work for just a second, it will roll back and crush you. So, what you're talking about is actually going with your strength going with your talents and your skills. So if you're an artist, do art. If you're an activist who is comfortable in the form of active protest, go and do that. Embody who you are and do what you do, and join the social movement in terms of bringing your skills and yourself to that role. I think that's really lovely. And just thinking about that reminds me of a publication that Peace Direct did which talked about the different roles that people can take in global development. And I will link to that in the show notes. So I would encourage everyone to take a look at the show notes because we're going to link to the poems that Kenza has read. And also have a look at the transcript because this session has been very, very rich in detail. Do take a look at the show notes. If you're interested, do sign up to our newsletter. You'll get links to all our recent podcasts. You'll get practical resources to decolonise your practice. Do remember to like and follow the podcast. Find us on LinkedIn and Blue Sky Social and see you again next time. Thank you so much for joining us, Kenza, and I'm really looking forward to working with you in the years to come.

Nompilo:

Thank you so much, Kenza. We have a lot to think about, a lot of food for thought. And, yeah, we look forward to continuing working with you at the Development Hub and exploring these ideas further. Take care and goodbye.

Kenza:

Thank you. It was truly a pleasure. Thank you again.