Brendan Cushen with Deep Canyon Outfitters

Brendan Cushen guides on a long stretch of the Deschutes River in Oregon. Famous for chunky redband rainbows and steelhead, the Deschutes is incredibly beautiful and important to the desert landscape through which it flows.  Brendan tells us about the tactics and gear we will need to successfully tackle this unique river. 

Accurate casting, a decent mend and a downstream hookset will get us started on the skills needed here. 

Kick back and listen to what we need to know before we go.

Transcript

Austin: 

 Hey guys, welcome to the Guide Talk podcast. This is your host, Austin Orr and tonight we're chatting with Brendan Cushen. He has done us the favor of giving us the opportunity to talk about his Trips that he does down the Deschutes River. Sounds like an amazing time and I'm really looking forward to talking more about that.

Brendan, you've had a number of years of experience now as a guide in your area. Wanna talk a little bit about how you got into guiding and then what is it that keeps you in the game? 

Brendan:

Yeah. I was introduced to fly fishing really young. Grew up in the Eastern Sierra, down in Mammoth Lakes, California, and after high school, moved up to Eugene, Oregon and started attending college up there.

Continued fishing a lot through college and actually wanted to move back down to Mammoth and kind of explore that area as an adult. And basically stumbled into working at TheTroutfitter down there and, pretty quickly, my buddy who got me the job asked me if I wanted to start guiding.

So it wasn't like a goal that I had in mind or anything. I was just fishing a ton and had fished my whole life. So I kind of stumbled into it and pretty quickly realized I wanted to get back up to Oregon and there was a ton of guide opportunities up here. My older brother lived in Bend at the time.

So it was a pretty seamless move up to Bend and starting to guide up here. Didn't have any experience with drift boats or anything like that; all my experience was on smaller water. So that was a bit of a learning curve right off the bat. But yeah, kind of walked right into a really busy guide position and haven't looked back since.

As far as staying. I just love being on the water with people, introducing people to the sport or showing someone the local fishery. As soon as I started rowing a boat, I really, really enjoyed just rowing. Just boating in general. Let alone putting people on fish.

A lot of the Deschutes stuff we do, we can't fish from the boat, we just use it to navigate the river. Pull into a run and hop out and, and fish that run. So that's a little bit different than a lot of other rivers. 

Austin:

Well that's a great segue into the next question. That's a great tidbit. Give us a little bit more about the Deschutes. What, what makes it a cool river? What's cool about y'all's particular stretch and all that? 

Brendan:

Yeah, so it's a long river. It's like a 250 mile long river. The stretch that we guide. Well, kind of the bread and butter float that we do is a three or a four day float, so there's camp involved.

 So if you're doing a four day float, we float about 42 miles of river in four days. So it's three nights at camp and it's between Madris, Oregon and, and Maupin, Oregon. What's considered the lower Deschutes Canyon, and mostly I'm looking to. Wild red side rainbows or red band rainbows is what they call 'em.

So super hard hard fighting fish. We shove off in the morning from Trout Creek usually, or from Warm Springs boat launch and fish our way down the river will pull over. I'll make us a Streamside lunch. And a guy has rode well ahead of us and set up this big elaborate camp. 

So everything's ready to go. By the time our day of fishing is done, we're floating into this really nice camp. Your dry bag and your gear's already on your cot ready to go. It's really comfortable. It's camping, but it's definitely glamping. It's really comfortable.

So they're really fun trips. 

Austin:

Yeah. Wow. That's a huge upgrade from some of the overnight stuff that I've been cold and wet at the end of every single night. So that sounds like a lot more fun. What's something that you've learned about that fishery in all the years that you've guided on it that's kind of surprised you?

Brendan:

I'd say the most surprising thing to me, honestly is the fight in those fish. Like how hard do they pull? Usually we're measuring trout in like lengths. And some rivers have those like two footers and you can expect some like upper twenties as like a trophy fish. These fish don't really get that long, but most of 'em have huge shoulders, big fins.

They just pull really, really hard and that's one of the most surprising things about 'em. Another one is often like how hard they are to catch how hard they are to find, ah, there's no real fish numbers or fish. For the river, but there are a ton of fish in the river. It's a really healthy, wild trout population. But sometimes it doesn't feel that way. Sometimes it, it can be a little difficult to, find them and to get 'em to eat 

Austin:

 Well Sure. But that's where the experience that y'all have on the river comes in, right? And that's one of the big advantages of having a multi-day Float is if the fish numbers are moving around or even if they're not moving around, if they're not feeding well here, we're gonna pick up and move anyway. So yeah, that's a big advantage. 

Brendan:

The water's really, really varied with what types of water we're fishing, cuz it's such a long stretch. So you can usually figure out, oh, they're sitting in slower water today, or, or faster bouldery stuff, whatever it may be. So the length of trip really helps out.

Austin:

 No doubt about that. As we're headed into these next few months, we start of the warmup, we've got maybe some snow melt coming in. What are some of the things that shift and change for y'all and when do you start guiding? 

Brendan:

So this year's a little bit different. It's quite a bit colder this year going into this time of year. It usually starts out with some march brown hatches and goes into a huge, really famous stonefly migration and hatch eventually.

Yeah, so a lot of golden stones and salmon flies. For a lot of people, that's the start of the year. Spring stonefly migration, the nymphing with stone flies before it happens. It's phenomenal. Those bugs are making their way to the riverbank to hatch and when it's happening because they're clobbering, stonefly nymphs. And then it goes into a really prolific hatch of golden stones and salmon flies, and it's a blast with huge dry flies. Monstrous eats big blowups on those big dry flies, and, if you get rainy days during that time of year big Green Drakes will come out.

That, that starts to happen. And those are what the trout are eating, they'll ignore a big golden stone to go after a green drake. They love 'em. That's what I've experienced most is if you see a couple of 'em, switch to those cuz they will because they're all over them.

Austin:

So what roughly, I know it's a little bit off here, but roughly what time of year, month wise does that start and. As we fade into, maybe June, how does that shift? 

Brendan:

Since it's all temperature based, it can vary by weeks a lot of times, and it has changed a little bit since say 20 years ago. I wasn't fishing it 20 years ago, but I know the hatch has shifted quite a bit with the warmer weather. But usually by mid-May, you're seeing a lot of stone flies around on that stretch and you'll see 'em a little bit earlier on and fish will start keying on 'em a little bit earlier.

But usually mid-May is a great bet for the hatch to be pretty much in full swing. And then it moves into early June, once again, all temperature dependent. So the last couple years, we had a really quick temperature change and it got really warm. We had some days where we were seeing big clouds of caddis towards the end of the stonefly hatch. I was fishing a golden stone to a caddis, like a double dry. So that's usually the timeframe with the start of the year. 

Austin:

Well, for any salty anglers that are listening to this right now, that's some freaking awesome style of fishing. When you're fishing two dries like that. That can be very exciting. So, that's some pretty cool stuff, man. That sounds amazing. I've never gotten a fish real live stonefly hatch. you hear the legends, right? On any of the big main rivers throughout the west, I've never gotten to fish that. I definitely would love to do that one of these days. So usually our next question talks about how many days you would recommend that an angler comes to fish with you. And that's sort of set right with y'all, with usually a three or four day session. Talk a little bit about that. 

Brendan:

Correct. So just because of the length of river that we're floating, there's no other options for put-ins and takeouts.

We float through a big remote stretch of river. We launched from Trout Creek and float all the way down. Harpham Flat is the takeout that we usually use, and that's 34 miles of river. So you need at least three days to float. We've done it in two days previously, and if you're not really into the fishing and you just want to have a scenic float and stop a few times and fish, that's fine.

But doing over 15 miles a day of river and not fishing out of the boat it's just a lot of, it's a big chunk of river to fish. So I always recommend three days. That's our most common. Four days is kind of ideal. You can take your time, you can fish a lot more water. You get three nights at camp.

So that's, that's kind of my favorite one is the, is the four day trip. Three nights at camp. 

Austin:

That makes sense to me. That's, that sounds like what I would want to do. So when you said you launch in the morning, you're drifting, what does a typical day of guiding on the river look like?

Brendan:

 After we launch, we pretty much immediately go through a couple of really fun little rapids that aren't that scary, but enough to get the blood flowing a little bit. And then you start pulling into your favorite spots that you like to fish all the way down.

We always time lunch based around the fishing. If it picks up a lot right at midday we might delay and, and fish that. But yeah we pull over and I'll make us lunch. Sometimes it's a grilled lunch. We'll do a chicken breast sandwich that I'll grill and make on the river or burgers. Or brats. Sometimes it's a cold lunch and we'll assemble some wraps or a, or a sandwich. But the food's really good on the trips. It's not quite the brown bag lunch. Usually with more serious anglers, you kind of try to get a feel for that. And if they don't wanna spend a lot of time at lunch, they want to fish as much as possible, try to speed it up a little bit and be on the water totally as much as you can. 

But yeah. Pull over for lunch. My guys, or gals, are usually fishing while I'm doing lunch, and then we sit down and take a break, eat, and then I pack it all up, throw it in the boat and we fish our way all the way down to camp.

Austin:

Well, that's the communication piece, right? Like if your goal on the trip is just to have a beautiful float and stop a few times and maybe catch a fish or two. Let the guide know if what you want to do is fish for every waking moment. Then also let the guide know that, right.

Just a little heads up, can go a long way and set the expectations for the day. 

Brendan:

Absolutely. And that's why the trip is awesome. There's a lot to see on the way down. There's a lot of wildlife to see. That's one of the advantages of not fishing out of the boat.

It's hard to not be casting when you're seeing fish rise against the bank and not be covering water. But it does allow you to look around, see Big Horn. And golden eagles, bald eagles, all kinds of birds and deer and all kinds of cool stuff. So instead of staring at a fly and just being too super zoned in all day, you do get to look around. 

Austin:

 That's a little bit of luxury all on its own, right? You don't have the pressure of fishing the whole time. You're sort of forced to, not to, but that also kind of enhances the experience a little bit. That's kind of a neat piece that is present in your trip that may not be present in other trips.

Brendan:

Yeah, it's kind of particular. I don't know of very many rivers that you can't fish in the boat. You can fish from the boat on a couple little stretches higher up on the river, but the whole lower Deschutes, your boots have to be on the ground while you're fishing. You can't even fish from the boat while it's against the bank. 

Austin:

That's very interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. We'll talk, we'll cover that a little bit as we get further along, but I would definitely wanna hear some of the background on that, just as a quick aside. But speaking of which, that's a good segue into talking about who might make your ideal client.

Is this beginner friendly? Are these advanced anglers only? Is there some physical fitness required from this? Who makes a great client? 

Brendan:

The ideal client. Is someone that's just gonna have a good time, regardless of how the trip goes and, and what we're doing, just appreciating being down in the canyon and floating a beautiful river.

But as far as my personal best client, it's someone that does have some wading capability. It's a big fast river, and some of the wading can be a little sketchy with big rocks, and deeper wading. And someone that can fish a bit, someone that can cast.

Depending on what time of year you're talking about. If you're talking about dry fly fishing, a lot of it's really specific spots. Usually close to trees or underneath trees type to the bank. So someone that can put a fly where they need to is a huge a. That being said, I guide a lot of people that are total beginners.

 Some people have never touched the fly rod and they book these multi-day trips. And it caters to that too. you get three days in a row to fish, so a lot of reps. So by day three people are fishing pretty well, then they're catching fish. So it all can be catered to. But it's nice when someone is physically capable. Part of it is we're all rowing really high sided drift boats because we are rowing through a couple of pretty good rapids. So they're kind of a pain to get in and out of. So someone that has some capability to get in and out of the boat definitely helps out.

That being said, I've taken quite a few people in their eighties down there. And put 'em on fish and they have a great time.I just cater to what spots we're gonna fish and make sure that it's safe and all that. 

Austin:

Well, that's the, that's what, that's really what we're asking as a guide, that you are doing your very best to support the angler where they're at and to meet them where they're at, and to help them further their education on the river, which is what we're all about..

But the advantage to be gained is through seeking information, just like what you and I are talking about. When you show up, just being better armed with the expectation of, “Oh, well I know I'm gonna need to clamber in and out of a drift boat because we can't fish from the boat.” So that's point number one that we definitely know. And we definitely know that if we're gonna be fishing dry flies for this awesome salmon fly hatch, then the fish are tight to cover.

It’s a big river. Like you were saying, the wading may be a little sketchy, but doable. And those are the things that are gonna make the day go a lot more smoothly, or the three or four days go a lot more smoothly. But at the same time, if you don't know and you show up, then you're in good hands. 

Brendan:

Absolutely. And, and there is a handicap placard that you can get on that stretch of river that can slap on the side of the. There's some limitations to it. We'd still need to be on anchor with me close to the boat or hand on the bow, but it enables someone that's physically incapable of wading the river to be able to still go down there and have a good time and catch fish. 

Austin:

Oh, that's fantastic.See, that's exactly the kind of tidbit that we hope to find in this podcast. Since we're getting ready for the trip, what are three skills that an angler should have when they arrive?

And this is in a perfect world, obviously, but what's something that you would like to see somebody have? And you talked about decent casts, and accurate, right? So talk a little bit more about what that means.Give us, give us some general distances, things like that, and, and go from there.

Brendan:

So most of it isn't horribly long casting necessarily, more accuracy. And sometimes with some, some big flies.You try to match up what you're using to what rod you're using for throwing those big, sometimes really big foam flies. I would say the number one thing, and it's kind of all encompassing, but kind of like line management is such a big one.

If you can cast a little bit, we can get it done. When someone hooks a big fish and they don't know how to either get it on the real quickly or they freak out and clamp down on the line cuz it's a nice big fish that's just stripping line. And these fish, like I said, they pull so hard.

Oftentimes you get 'em in really close and you think they're done and the nets out and then they make that last turn down river and the rod flattens out and we break 'em off or, or the hook pulls. Line management is a big one. Also there's periods of time during the year when we're nymphing a lot, there's not a ton of dry fly action going on.

So I see a lot of people that, even with people with a lot of experience, nymphing with tension on the line to their float. I'm not a fan of tight-line nymphing, even though it works incredibly well. I much prefer casting and mending, actually using some fly line. So I just always am teaching having slack line on the water to make sure that you're getting a perfect drift.

So that involves a ton of line management with mending. And then it's a big river. Running really long drifts is really advantageous. So being able to feed line really smoothly without chugging your indicator, without making any tension or drag is huge. So those things are really important.

And then I would say downstream hook sets are a really big one that once again, some people that have quite a bit of experience may not always do that. And if it's ingrained with someone to set wherever, a lot of times up river, it's really hard to break that habit because it's such a split second reaction.

So we just, particularly if you're hooking fish down river, that downstream hook set - or setting downriver to the bank - you just hook way more fish and keep way more fish on too. It's such a better hookset. So those skills are really important down there.

Austin:

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. For those of us in the warm water saltwater universe, we don't think a lot about the directionality of our hook sets. So that's a good reminder to anybody fishing cold water or moving water anywhere to think about which way is my rod tip moving when I set the hook. Because if you're not just strip setting, Then there's things you can do to increase your hookup ratios.So that's just a thought, just a nugget for y’all out there listening.

What are some mistakes that folks make that you see pretty consistently that loses them fish or blow shots?

Brendan:

Probably the biggest one is not letting fish run. They're wild fish. They're really fast. Not every single one, but most of them are shockingly fast and strong.

And they're just marathon runners, they'll make a lot of runs. We hook some of these fish in really fast water. So they'll run over and over and over and you think they're done. And then they make that one last run and the rod flattens and they break 'em off..

Obviously we don't want to play 'em super soft and, and play the fish for too long. But keeping just a little bit of pressure on 'em and really letting a fish take off and tiring it out that way is a good thing to do. And I see a lot of people that try to really force these fish in and so you end up with a lot of opened up hooks. You bend the hook out and lose it or you snap a fish off.

That's a big one. The other one is probably fishing with a little bit of tension. I think a lot of people are used to fishing some maybe smaller water that's a little more high, sticking close in, and there is some of that, but a lot of it is bigger drifts. And so learning how to make sure that there's some slack line on the water to ensure that you have a good drift. 

I prefer to be fishing with a little bit too much slack, getting a perfect drift and missing fish or two, versus not even getting bit very much. That's because you have a little tension and drag on your drift. I teach that a lot and I like longer rods for nymphing.

You can pick up a lot of line and get tight on a hook set really quickly. So you can have a lot more slack out there than some people think. 

Austin:

That makes sense to me. That makes sense to me. That's excellent. So let's talk about gear.What's a typical load out. I'm interested to hear rods, reels and the whole gamut. 

Brendan:

So for most of the year, I'll have just a nine foot five weight for all of your kind of smaller dry fly fishing. Some people like to use nine foot five weights with those big stonefly dries even.

I've kind of moved to liking a nine foot six weight for that. Just for being able to cast a bigger fly and have good line control with it. And then as far as  nymphing rigs go, either a like a nine and a half foot six weight, or you're seeing a lot of 10 foot five weight is a, is a great rod to use and that's, I've been using those for the last two or three years, those 10 foot five weights and it's just a really good, you have the length.

But someone that maybe doesn't want to be lugging around a big giant nine and a half foot six weight all day, it's a little lighter in hand. Sure. A little softer so you don't lose as many fish. It's a big river; obviously there's times when we're catching fish right in front of ourselves, but being able to mend to distance a little bit more really helps out, and a longer rod helps with that.

And then with the popularity of two-handed rods in this area whether you're trout spey or spey fishing for steelhead later in the Fall that's kind of a whole different ballgame, but Depending on the time of year, we'll have those in the boat also.

Austin:

It's amazing how much that just extra foot changes the game. You’ve got that much more leverage. I rarely have an opportunity to fish with a 10 foot rod as a single hand. But it is an interesting experience every time I do have that opportunity.

I do just wanna touch briefly on what sort of lines you're throwing. Is it mostly floating weight forward stuff?

Brendan:

Mostly floating weight forward. you can have just an average dr fly line for the, for the smaller bugs, the caddis and mayfly hatches. But the nymphing lines, really aggressive, heavier out towards the tip of the line just to get indicator rigs to roll over. And then when you go to spey lines, trout spey, there's so many lines on the market these days with that stuff.

But there's a lot of really cool, pretty easy to cast integrated kind of Skagit lines these days for trout spey that work really well. Scientific Anglers has a number of integrated lines that are just perfect for what we do down there for trout spey stuff. When you move to steelhead, a lot of that is kind of personal preference.

Some guys really like the more traditional longer belly lines. If you're starting out it's a lot easier to get some distance with a more aggressive, more Skagit or more Skandi line with that setup. 

Austin:

Very interesting. Well, it sounds like we may have to have another conversation.Since it sounds like those two times of year are specialized, they're sort of compartmentalized in the gear that you're using and certainly the fish that you're chasing. So we may have to have another conversation down the line, which is perfectly fine with me. 

What gear would you recommend that people bring versus what do you provide?

Brendan:

So a lot of people show up to these trips with almost nothing as far as fishing gear goes. They'll show up with some camping stuff. But all of the rods and reels, all of that stuff I provide personally, it's all my gear. And then Deep Canyon Outfitters can provide of course all of the camping gear, sleeping bags, even.

But waders and boots, we can provide those. We have a huge gear cage full of all different sizes of waders and nice felt bottom boots for that river. So we can provide everything. A lot of people, even experienced guys, if they're traveling just show up and say, ah, we'll just, we'll just use your gear, and we have 'em all rigged up and ready to go.

So, I do really like when people bring their really nice gear to the river and I'd prefer to just have that and, and rig it up for 'em. 

Austin:

 If they're gonna pick just a couple things to bring, what would those couple things be?

Brendan:

Depending on the time of year, just gear to match the weather. It gets really hot down there for a lot of the middle of the day. So having some wet wading socks. I won't even wear waders down there for a couple months at least, just because it's so hot.

Some people still opt to wear a nice breathable wader. Sure. But when it's upper nineties, sometimes in the middle of the day, the water's in the fifties, it feels really nice to be waist deep in a cooler river. But other times of year, if it's cold, make sure that you have layers that are okay to get wet and still keep you warm.

So some of your synthetic stuff, some wool layers, wool socks are good to have. And then rain gear is an absolute must. A good rain jacket is pretty much something you want to have at all times. Packed down there just in case. So, yeah. And then, hat and sunglasses, just sun protection.

That river flows through, flows through the desert. It's blazing sunshine a lot of days down there. So just being able to cover up; sunscreen, a hat, a buff. Sun hoodies are really popular these days. I wear those pretty much every day down there just to cover the tops of your ears.

And I don't really like having stuff covering my face too. So I'll usually just be reapplying, sunscreen and, and wearing a sun hoodie. 

Austin:

That's a strategy I've adopted myself. It works pretty well. Is there anything in particular that a client shouldn't bring? I recognize that it comes down to guide preference.

Is there anything that you really prefer to take care of that you just don't need anybody to bring? 

Brendan:

Not really. We have plenty of storage on these boats. They're big drift boats. I always tell people like, if they wanna have their pack to bring with all their own stuff, feel free to bring it. Occasionally we're stopped at a spot and we end up getting a little spread out. So having your own net on you can be great. Ideally, we're both pretty close together so it’s a couple steps for me to, to net someone's fish or change flies for 'em or whatever. 

So it's pretty wide open with that kind of personal preference. If people don't have gear to bring or they don't want to travel with it they can show up with hardly anything and, and we'll take care of everything.

Austin:

Very cool. You mentioned a little bit earlier that there's some rigging of leaders and tippet that you like to use. Do you wanna talk about any of that some of the things that y'all use? Or is that just totally guide preference and everybody uses something different? I 

Brendan:

I would say it's really guide preference.As far as just a quick rundown, as far as dry fly fishing, regular knotless, tapered leaders at nine feet are just fine. Sometimes it gets really picky with smaller dry fly stuff and you have to go with much longer leaders. But the dry fly stuff's pretty straightforward. Dry fly dropper rigs work really well, sometimes the dropper is down to three plus feet under a dry fly at times when it's a little more difficult.

And nymphing rigs get really particular with how many different options there are. With that, I like to not use a tapered leader. I build my own leader so that most of it is fluorocarbon underneath an indicator, whatever float you're using.

And then trying to keep it thin diameter underneath an indicator also, instead of having a super chunky material under your indicator. At that point you don't really know where your flies are. Use a lot of loop knots with almost everything except for the smallest of dry flies, pretty much putting everything on a loop knot just to give it a little more action.

So a lot of that stuff's really, really particular. There's a lot of guys that get it done really well doing totally other stuff. 

Austin:

Well that's the fun bit, right? you can take it and make it your own and if you find something that works great.

And that's what, that's what that question is really about is just trying to remind everybody that there's always another way to get it done.There's no one way. We've come now to the portion of the show that a lot of people really like, which is fly selection.

And that's a whole rabbit hole that you can tumble down into and never crawl out of. But we were talking about stoneflies, so let's kind of just stick with the stones, right? And you don't even have to narrow it down to a particular pattern, but let's talk more about the philosophy of the fly.

if you will. I need a stonefly nymph that does this and I need a stonefly dry that does this. What would that look like? 

Brendan:

So as far as nymphs go, usually earlier in the year the stonefly migration happens, I think that's when they're the most keyed on stonefly nymphs. That's when most of those bugs are moving to the bank.

Typically that's the time when you're using larger stonefly nymphs. I've gone back and forth with stonefly patterns a lot. I really like to not get too tunnel vision with it and still keep experimenting year after year with different stuff.

So I'm always going back and forth with a weighted stonefly nymph, a really heavy one, or having external weight and a lighter stonefly nymph. And then kind of the same thing with what pattern you're using. Some of the really hyper realistic stonefly nymphs just don't fish as well as like the classic just chenille and rubber legs, and I don't know what that is.

A lot of the anatomically correct stonefly nymphs these days look so impressive, like so beautiful. But they just don't quite fish as well as the just good old rubber legs or jimmy legs, whatever you want to call it. So I've kind of stuck with those and I'll go back and forth with different colors.

But they're usually just the straight up black stonefly modeled, coffee colors and, and brown colors can work really well. Pretty straightforward. And then when you move to Stonefly dries there's, I have a couple on this here, right here. There's, chubby chernobyls are Yep.

Kind of a staple down there. They float forever and they're really easy to see. It's a killer dry dropper fly, so we kind of use 'em throughout the whole year on dry dropper rigs and people have their favorite colors. I typically fish a lot more like Golden Stone colors. 

Just a pretty ridiculous looking fly. The first few times I saw these - I didn't grow up fishing these when I was much younger, so I just thought it was silly. It looks like a ping pong ball floating down the river.

You get to see that big, huge yarn. And they just float. Yeah, they float really well. You can change up colors based on what species of stonefly you're throwing. And some ridiculous colors work really well.

Purples, and super bright reds can work really well in those flies. I do think just from pressure over the years, I've found some of the more classic old school patterns with stonefly drys have worked better at certain times than the big giant chubby chernobyl with a huge white or pink wing on it.

So, I've kind of gone back to using some of the older flies, some of the seasons. And then still once again, like experimenting with all the new bugs coming out. The fly selection we have these days is insane. Dozens of new ones every year. So this past year, this big gaudy, ridiculous looking salmon fly pattern - just like all foam, just silly looking - was the go-to. They were all over it. So it's kind of experimenting each year and figuring out what they want that year. 

Austin:

Well, that's what's great about going on a trip with someone like y'all is you've been able to eliminate a lot of the stuff that doesn't work and have a pretty good idea about what is going to work.

So, that's a big point in your favor for sure. Roughly what sizes are we looking at for those nymphs and the dries? 

Brendan:

The nymphs will be anywhere from like a six to a 10 usually. And, you can go bigger or smaller. That's just kind of the general range. And then as far as the dry flies go, you are wanting to kind of look around and see what's sitting in the grass and what's flying around and how big those are. Sometimes because it's a hatch that works from the bottom of the river, kind of migrating up river cuz it's warmer down in the bottom first, you'll see different sizes as you go through the float. You might have a couple hours where you're rowing through big, giant egg laying golden stones, and it's like the biggest fly that you have is what you're gonna be fishing with, but that's not gonna work throughout the whole hatch.

So, observing what's going on with the bugs around you and, and doing the classic match the hatch kind of thing. And those will be the same as, as far as sizes, kind of six to 10. 

Austin:

So what tippet are you matching up with those guys? 

Brendan:

Anywhere from 4x to like 2x. If it's really on, they're not tippet shy at all. I think they’re getting a little bit more tippet shy over the years. There’s more people down there, the flies are better, and they’re seeing more flies.

So dropping down tippet size a little bit. A lot of the tippet we have these days has incredibly strong wet knot strength for its size. I'm a huge, yeah, huge fan of SA tippet. It's crazy strong wet knot strength. So I've been able to drop down like almost a whole tippet size using that stuff.

So using 4x, 3x. And then some of the spots they might be sitting in really slow water, really slow glassy water. And you might be using a more traditional lighter fly. And I've even gone all the way down to like 5x and that was working really well.

Obviously have to keep in mind you're using 5x with the hook set and the fish bite. 

Austin:

So talk us through a fish encounter, Pull the, the boat off. Maybe you noticed a couple fish feeding up the bank. You say, Hey, let's go up there and make an approach on these fish.

What is, is that a viable strategy? Talk us through what that looks like. 

Brendan:

Yeah, so it's kind of particular cuz you're not fishing from the boat, right? So you have to figure out where am I gonna pull the boat in and not spook that fish? Where can you pull the boat in?

You have to be able to get out and, and wade that spot. They really like to sit in deeper spots at that time of year and eat these flies. So if I have someone that can cast decently well and we see a fish feeding on say the downstream side of some overhanging tree limbs, we'll pull in, well below it, and park the boat. We’ll get a good anchor, and then we hop out and kind of work our way up to that fish.

Sometimes people can't cast as well with dry flies. And I might pull in well above that tree and hop someone out of the boat and we'll make a short cast and feed line to it underneath tree branches. And they can access 'em that way. And there's some lies that it's almost impossible to get a fly into, cuz you have tree branches inches above the water and you can see a huge nose coming up over.

But you can't even fit a loop underneath that tree branch. So, yeah. Yeah. So some of it's situational, but yeah, it definitely adds to the, to the difficulty, but also the fun not, absolutely not fishing from the boat and, and having to strategically put your boat in the right place. Not spook 'em, all that stuff.

Austin:

So at times, it is spot and stalk where you see the fish. You see the fish come up and eat. You move up to the fish, get in. Make your cast and then, fingers cross. The fish eats and we are looking for that downstream hook set, right?

Brendan:

And if you're positioned downstream from the fish, any way you set is gonna be a downstream hook set, you're casting upriver.

So that's kind of ideal if you get 'em to put the tippet right between their eyes and they come up and eat it. And any lift of the rod and they’re on. But yeah, if it's a downstream presentation, setting to the bank at all, getting a little bit of an angle on that hook set instead of straight up river, even a really high hook set right can work well if they're eating downstream from you so that all that stuff really comes into play.

A lot of the smaller drive fly eats happen really slowly. In the, in the heat of summer, when there’s clouds of caddis around, these huge rainbows will Park in the shade underneath tree limbs in really slow water, like almost lake water. Some of them are eddies, but just really slow water.

So you're needing to figure out where you can make a cast and not line 'em, not spook 'em with your cast. So I try to do downstream presentations where it's fly-first. They don't see any fly line coming over the top of 'em. All they see is your fly. That's kind of the ideal scenario. 

Austin:

For anybody interested in a trip like this, it sounds like you would learn a ton about body positioning versus where the fish is versus the current, and really learning how to make that happen as far as closing the distance between you and the fish.

So that sounds like a really cool set of skills that you can hone if you haven't had an opportunity to do that. Are there any special considerations that you take when it comes to fish handling? What are a few of the things that you in particular really look to do when that beautiful fish has been hooked?It's been brought in, fought well, and ends up in the net. 

Brendan:

Yeah, definitely keeping him wet. Most people want to get a good picture of a nice big, wild fish they've caught. Or maybe it's their first fish or, or first one on a dry fly, whatever it is. So make sure that that fish is in the water the entire time you're getting ready, bringing your phone or your camera out. You don't need to lift it outta the water and be fumbling around with your phone, trying to open your camera, all that stuff, so you're totally ready for it. I'm not necessarily. A super quick lift so you can see the whole fish for a fish picture. 

I'm fine with a really brief couple of seconds where you lift it up. So keeping them as wet as possible and then not death-gripping the fish. These particular fish are kind of hard to hold well. 

So just making sure that you're not squeezing 'em particularly right behind their pectoral fins where all their organs are. And of course keeping your fingers out of their gills.

And then if you're talking about steelhead, we have hatchery steelhead and wild steelhead. If it's a wild steelhead, their mouth doesn't leave the water at all. It's submerged the whole time. You can lift up most of the fish, but make sure that it has water flowing through its mouth and out of its gill the entire time.

Those fish are so special and, and we gotta make sure we take care of them, particularly on that river. Hatchery steelhead are a little different. A lot of people here say that if you land a hatchery steelhead that you should bonk it and keep it. That's kind of the general consensus.

So I'm fine with getting a nice hero shot with a hatchery steelhead, but all the wild fish, keeping 'em as wet as possible and keeping their mouths submerged. 

Austin:

If an angler comes down with a non-fishing partner, is there much for that partner to do?

And I realize that this is sort of a specialized thing. A lot of our trips that we talk about, you move out of a lodge or you're going, kind of a day trip format. This is, you're more committed. Right? But I have no doubt that you still have non-fishing partners that accompany you on these trips.

So tell us a little bit about that. 

Brendan:

Yeah, you have a lot of hang-time in the boat because we're not fishing as we're moving down river. So we're all hanging out, having good conversation as we're on our way down. I'm pointing out wildlife and all of that stuff. There's plenty to see, plenty to take pictures of. I have binoculars in the boat to look at, big corn sheep or, or whatever other, other wildlife. We see a bunch of wild horses on one side of the river. So, each spot we're pulling in and fishing, that person can hop out and have a little walk around and just kind of check out the spot that we're fishing.

I've had quite a few people that started off saying that they weren't going to fish very much or if at all. And then some fish get caught and they get interested… and they end up fishing quite a bit. So that's cool. But it caters to that definitely.

It's all pretty remote, so there's plenty of area to go and have a little hike around. Some people want to get to camp a little bit earlier and have some downtime to just relax and camp instead of fishing all the way up to right when we pull in and then we eat dinner and then we go to bed.

So some people want to pull in and have a little more camp time.

Austin:

 Yeah I could see that. Again, that's about communication, right? It’s easy enough to accommodate those goals. A couple more questions. 

Waterways are getting more crowded, right?

We see more people all the time. What are some of the things that you take into consideration or you try to do to minymphsize conflict on the river to make sure the rules of the road are recognized and observed?

Brendan:

I think the biggest thing is just communicating with other people on the river. A little bit of communication with where you're camping goes a long way. There's only designated camp spots. Most of those camp spots have nice bathrooms there, actually. Some of them are really nice. And most of the camp spots have restrooms.

You're supposed to bring down a portable toilet for the spots that don't have a restroom. But some of them are really nice. They're like self composting outhouses that are usually well stocked. And having that down there is huge. There's a lot of other multi, multi-day areas where you’re required to pack out all your waste. So we're really lucky to have restrooms all the way down. It makes it really comfortable. All the camps we use all have a restroom there. The main thing is establishing some communication with other boats, figuring out where people are camping so everyone doesn't end up at one camp.

Most of the time you can find a camp somewhere in the stretch that you want to be camping that night, but if it's really busy and you want a fish or run and you see someone else close to that run just asking, are you working down river?

Hey, do you mind if we pull into the very bottom of this and fish it? I think that goes a really long way. There's nothing worse than someone not staying anything and then pulling it a little too close or into a spot just below you that you were planning on going in and fishing. So totally.

Just being open with communication is, I think, the biggest thing you can do. 

Austin:

Well that's critical. Wherever we go, it's easier to make an enemy on the water than a friend. So we try to do our best to keep it friendly out there. Well, Brendan, you've answered so many of our questions for us.

We really appreciate it. One more good, solid question for you, but first I wanna make sure that you have an opportunity to talk about the outfitter that you work with and fly shops and any sponsors that you might have. All that. Make sure that we know how to get in touch with you and get to go on a trip down the river with you.

Brendan:

Yeah. This is all in Bend, Oregon, in Central Oregon and quite a few awesome shops in Bend. We are a Confluence fly shop. It's in the Old Mill In Bend, Oregon and Deep Canyon Outfitters is the guide aspect of the operation. Confluence Fly Shop and Deep Canyon Outfitters are one entity.

On Instagram and it's @DeepCanyonOutfitters or @confluenceflyshop. My handle is @BWalkerCush. Those are the quickest and easiest ways to check out the whole operation and get in touch with us to book a trip. 

Austin:

Very cool. Last question. Last but not least, other than tipping, what is one thing that an angler that fishes with you can do to make sure that y'all have a great day out on the water? 

Brendan:

I guess maybe showing up with realistic expectations for fishing. Most people do, but you have some people that show up and might just expect to catch a million fish or a huge fish because they've hired a guide, and that's not always the case. Of course, as long as, as long as your guy's working his tail off trying to put you on fish, all. That's basically all we can do. So realistic expectations, and then just showing up with a good attitude, so that you have a positive day kind of regardless of what the fishing is like.

The people with the best attitude seem to catch the most fish. I don't know what it is. I think trout can sense desperation, and they hate it. The most desperate stick out there frequently doesn't catch as many as the person that's even a beginner that's just having a good time.

So yeah, I think that's the most important thing and that's why you should be out. It's the right reason to be out there, I think, to have a good time. 

Austin:

Well, Brendan, thank you so much again for taking the time to talk with us.

We've learned a ton. I've learned some cool stuff about how that section of River operates and really hope to get up there and get to join y'all out on the river one day. And looking forward to the next time we get to talk about some steelhead. 

We'll get that on the schedule. Yeah, plenty to talk about. 

Right on. Thanks for having me on, Austin. 

Chris Daniel, Big Sky Anglers

Hey friends, welcome to the Guide Talk podcast. I'm Austin, your host, and today we're talking with Chris Daniel. He is a longtime guide in the Yellowstone area. He's told me, we were talking just before we got on here, and he's told me that he's lived and worked in this particular area for 17 years. So we're obviously in good hands.

He's incredibly experienced when it comes to the local rivers and streams. And not only that, he's an amazing photographer. I've seen some of his stuff on Instagram and on his website, and so I'm really looking forward to getting to talk to you. Chris, thank you for taking the time to speak with us tonight.

And we're, we're raring to go. So why don't you please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background guiding wise as well as, you know, growing up and where you've gotten to fish in, in the intervening time. And tell us. What got you into guiding and then what keeps you in the game. 

Yeah, man. Well first off, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate that. So yeah, I grew up in the mountains of Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania. I grew up in a little place called Potter County. And there's a big sign there that says, welcome to God's country.

My brother and I, we fished from two years up through our childhood and we grew up on a tiny little stocked stream that had brookies and browns and that was just an incredible way to cut your teeth in fly fishing. And yeah, from there we kind of got relocated about two hours south down to a place called Lock Haven.

Most people were really familiar with State College and Penn State University. So we were pretty close to there. So we had Fishing Creek, Spring Creek, Penns Creek, the Little Junta. We had all those probably within an hour of us. So that's kind of where we did most of our fishing growing up. My brother still lives back there.

He is actually a professor at Penn State now, and I moved out West thanks to him. He got me a job out in West Yellowstone, Montana back in 2006. You know what the funniest part is, today May 25th is the day I moved out here 18 years ago. 

That's fantastic. So what brought you to guiding? You got the gig, but that's not what keeps people guiding, right? Lots of people come to guiding and leave almost immediately. 

I've been very fortunate to work for some just amazing people out here.

I've had some of the best in the world help me along the way, and the guy I moved out here to work for was named Bob Jacklin, and Bob is just a teacher at heart, so he kind of put that into me on the teaching aspect. And I have loved fly fishing ever since I was a little boy. And then I did it most of my life.

And then when I moved out here, I knew it was something I was gonna wanna do for a long time. And like, not only just fish, but teach and and not only teach but in this neck of the woods cuz we just are surrounded by some phenomenal areas. 

You've got legendary, legendary waters around you, right? 

Yeah. So we're three blocks away from Yellowstone National Park. So inside the Park, you have the famous Madison, the Fire Hole, the Gibbon, Gallatin, Gardener, Slough Creek, Soda Butte Creek, Lamar River, and of course the big Yellowstone.

So that is a lifetime of learning just inside the Park all by itself. And then you go into Montana in the opposite direction. You have the Big Madison River, which everybody knows about. And the shop I work for now, we're one of the very few shops in the entire state that actually has the Henry's Fork permit.

So that is a brand new kind of fishery to me, learning that over the last three or four years, all the different stretches and the new bugs and everything down there. The hatches are the same, but they're just a little different timing. So it's been a blast learning not only the Henry's Fork, but we're still learning everything every single day we go out.

 Well that's one of the great things about being a fly angler, right? It's definitely one of those sports that rewards you for being out there and experiencing it, being outside.

So what is something that you've learned? You were talking about old water, that you've spent an amazing amount of time on some new water that you've started fishing recently. What's something that you've learned about these fisheries that surprised you? 

I try and learn something new every single day I go out, I really do. Yeah, and you might learn a different way to approach a piece of water. You might learn a different pattern to tie up. Because some of the fish, especially down on say the Henry's Fork, Yellowstone Park is one thing. There's picky fish in there, there's picky fish on the Madison.

But the Henry's Fork just has some of the pickiest fish in our area and the rewards are definitely worth all the hard work, cuz some of those fish are just really nice. So finding new patterns and new ways to fish to these fish and it's just an ever ending learning lesson for me. I love it. 

So we're headed into sort of the meat of your season right? So we're here in May right now, towards the end of May and as we get ready to head into these next three months, what are some of the considerations that you're taking into account and how do things change and how do you make adjustments. I'm sure people are gonna start flooding into the area you're talking about Yellowstone Park. How do you adjust as these changes move into the summer?

So, yeah, we see about 5 million people a year. Four to 5 million people a year come through Yellowstone. So the people are starting to come in, and it's just gotten tremendously busy in the last two weeks and it's only gonna get even busier.

We normally see about 12,000 people a day come through our little town. So my, yeah, it's incredible. But the different fisheries are just completely different in every aspect. Yellowstone National Park, there's just say eight main rivers in there and every one of 'em is gonna come alive at a different point.

So on our side of the Park, really close to the West Entrance, we have the Madison, Fire Hole and the Gibbon. The biggest thing about the Fire Hole and the Gibbon River is they’re thermal fed because of all the hot springs and geysers. So, because of that thermal influence, those rivers can be 10 degrees warmer than all the other rivers in the area.

So we are gonna get the first bug life. So all the hatches are gonna pop really soon. Next week we're gonna see betas, we're gonna see PMDs, we're gonna see this big white caddis called a Miller's moth. We'll see some of those. And then the Gibbon has some thermal influence.

So we're gonna see some good bug life in there. And then those two form actually at Madison Junction, where all that warm water flows into the Madison, it's gonna warm up. So, yeah, so all the other rivers in the Park are spring fed and coming in off the mountains, so that water's still really cold for quite some time.

And so this side of the Park actually opens up on Saturday and then it'll fish good for probably about two to three weeks and then it starts to get a little too warm because of that thermal activity and it'll start to peak into the 60, like high sixties and low seventies.

And at that point we normally stop fishing, just to not stress those fish out. But what's cool is when those fisheries are kind of starting to get a little warm, everything else is just coming up to the right temperature. So all of a sudden the Yellowstone River starting July one might be up to temperature.

We might start seeing some salmon flies, some golden stones. So everything comes alive at a little different point. So the Henry’s Fork, that's cool right now. We just floated it a couple hours ago and we're looking for big bugs. We're looking for salmon flies. There were plenty of nymphs staging around and moving around, but they just haven't hatched yet, and we haven't seen any big bugs. 

We had just a heck of a winter this year and we had a great amount of snow, which is gonna keep those rivers colder longer because of the runoff. And everything right now is about four to five days behind schedule. So we should start to see those salmon flies come alive here in the next probably four or five days, and then it's gonna be really fun. 

Alright.That sounds amazing. I found it so fascinating that the folks like yourself that really live and breathe those rivers have leaned into the old knowledge. How do you know that you're four or five days behind? 

Well, it's because we've been paying attention for a really long time. And we have some, and it's, we have some really good resources. Like yeah, we have the Madison River Foundation, we have the Henry's Ford Foundation. and plus we have just all the local knowledge from all the guides that have been doing this for 30 plus years. So, yep, there's weekly reports coming in from everybody, so we have a lot of really good people on our back and giving us great intel.

Yeah, that's just so incredible. So when an angler comes out, you're describing, like we said, some of the legendary water that people hear about growing up reading about in magazines. If you're down here in the lower coastline in the southeast, like I am down here in Texas and then further east of here, you hear about these places, but maybe you've never gotten to go when you show up on a trip to fish with someone like yourself. What is our reasonable expectation of the amount of time that we need to spend to really be successful out there? If timing up these hatches is a matter of, of four or five days, one way or the other how do we maximize our time? 

It's kind of one of those things that like, oh, damn, you should have been here yesterday It's one of those tough things that if you come out for one day and you hit that hatch, oh my God, you might as well go play and win the lottery that night because, you kind of did that day, because I see people just luck into these dates where like, the conditions are epic, the bugs are hatching and the fish are just going bananas on 'em.

Yeah. But then I've taken people out for four days and we've missed them all four days. So it's kind of one of those things that, one day is awesome, two days is better. if you really want to put in, if you're gonna spend all the money to come out here and fly out and lodging and hotels, you might as well get a guide for at least two days and shoot for three or four because Right.

The cool thing is, if the Madison's fishing good, that doesn't mean the Henry's Fork in the Park is gonna suck. If the Henry's Fork is fishing good, that doesn't mean the other two are gonna suck. So we have a really cool program where we can potentially go and spend a day in the Park, we can go and float the Madison the next day, and then we can go and float the Henry's Fork the next day.

And on the fourth day, you can do whatever you want. Like you can go, oh man, I really had a blast doing this spot. Let's do that again. But a different float, so we're really fortunate and blessed to have the waters we do around us. 

That's incredible. That's incredible. So, my next question is, what does a typical day of guiding look like?

But it sounds like it could look like basically anything you want it to be. Obviously we're gonna lean on you to know where the best hatches are, the best possibilities, but dang, it sounds like the options are practically endless. 

Our day starts the night before we call the customer and we say hey, like, what would you like for lunch the next day? What would you like to do for your day tomorrow in the water? Because some people are like, man, I really want to fish the Fork. I really want to try and get into some dry fly eaters down on that lower river. Hey, I really want to go fish next to a geyser in the Park so we can do that kind of stuff.

Most people are like, take me to wherever the fishing is best. So they leave it up to us and we're always gonna try and take you to the best spot if you are an absolute rank beginner, which we deal with all the time out here. And that's awesome because beginners are usually just stoked on life to be on the water.

If they catch a couple fish, they're like, badass. This is so much fun. They're usually just so pleasant to be around because they're just like, damn, this is beautiful. You get to do this every day? And it just makes your day kind of super easy and fun. And experts and very advanced anglers are not any different. I enjoy taking out everybody from that's like, never ever seen a fly rod a day in their life to somebody that's been doing it 50 years. And I kind of cater people's days to that. If I know I have a stick in the boat, we're gonna go do something different and we're gonna go try and chase maybe some bigger fish and not just stare at a bobber all day long.

But if I have beginners in the boat and I just want to bend the rod a few times, we're probably gonna start off with some nymphs. Just get a couple bends in, and maybe switch to something different midday and just try and teach 'em a couple new things.

Cause yeah, just a little roll cast that's fun with a mend. It's fun, but actually being able to fly fish in a pickup and a lay down or a false cast.. That's kind of where you start fly fishing in my mind. Right. And it's really fun. Like I used to do an absolute metric ton of nymphing with customers and cuz that's just what produced a lot of fish, but now I'm kind of changing my ways a little bit and we're starting to hunt heads a little more and teach people how to strip streamers and just be more broad in our teaching. 

That's what keeps me in it, man. You know, there's something to be said for specialization.

And like you said, nymphs, that's 90% of what the trout are eating, right? That's what they say. The reality is that we love to fly fish because of the challenge and the evergreen learning opportunity. At least for me. That's true.

And so it sounds like you've really hit that point of mastery and now you're changing the way that you're teaching to encompass all of those things that you've spent so much time learning over the years, which is, it was pretty great. Very fun opportunity. 

I wouldn't say I've mastered anything. I've mastered the art of BSing. 

*laughs* That's important. That's just as, just as important as anything else in this fly fishing game of ours. 

So if you're, if you're organized throughout the day, you're meeting the client at the ramp or they're coming to pick 'em up, or how does that work?

And then you're, you've got. Some fishing time and then lunch and then more fishing time and then back. How does that all work? 

So we run a really cool program at our fly shop and we don't just say, “Hey, meet us at the fly shop at 8:00 AM.” We work with a handful of lodges. So a lot of times, like tomorrow on my trip, I'm picking my guy up at a lodge and I'm driving an hour picking 'em up and then taking 'em fishing.

Sometimes people meet us at the shop, we'll meet 'em at their house, we'll meet 'em at other people's houses, we'll meet 'em at the ramp. So no, really two days are the same and that's kind of cool. But normally on a normal, typical day, if you're floating the Fork or the Madison we're gonna meet you at eight o'clock.

If we're meeting you at the launch, it's probably about 8: 45 to nine o'clock cuz it's a little bit of a drive to get down there. Gotcha. If you're going in the Park with one of us, you're probably meeting us at like 6: 45 or 7 and all that is, is just to beat the traffic because that part can get.

Just gnarly backup traffic jams, like four hours, five miles of traffic jams because somebody up the road is looking at a bison. So, you're meeting me early so we can actually beat most of that traffic and get to where we need to go to fish. So like the furthest place we'll drive up into the Park is the northeast corner of the Park.

It's Slough Creek, Soda Butte Creek, Lamar River. I'm meeting you at seven and we're driving an hour and 45 minutes to get up there and that's with pretty good flow of traffic. Not stopping a lot, so we'll probably fish until noon or one. Have a nice little lunch really quickly on the bank and then we'll fish till about four cuz it normally takes about two, two and a half hours to get home because of the traffic.

Sometimes four, depending on what's in front of you. But if you're on the Madison or down in Idaho, you're probably fishing till about 5, 5:30 and then you're home by 6, 6:30 depending on where you are. So we try to give you a pretty full day. 

Yeah. Sounds like it. because what you're describing, the Slough Creek, the Lamar, those are walk and Wade Fisheries, right?

Correct. Everything inside of Yellowstone is on foot, which is awesome because, it's all public land, it's all ACC accessible and yeah. So pretty much, when I'm fishing, there's people, public people just walking behind me and fishing below me and above me the whole time.

And, if I get the right people that don't mind hiking, we'll hike sometimes two or three, four miles back into these spots, these hidden lakes, and we'll hike up these canyons and just kind of get away from everything. And it always goes with the age old saying, like, the further away you get from a road, the better the fishing gets.

And that is definitely true inside of the Park. If you can get away from the road, even a mile sometimes, it's just less pressure on those fish and they just are a little dumber, which I love. 

Some of those systems that you're talking about, there is a marked difference from the water that you can see from the road, which people gravitate to that immediately and they will walk out there and hammer that versus, you know, even around the bend and maybe another half mile through the trees or whatever, makes a big difference.

And if I have people that are fit and capable of hiking a few miles, like we're gonna do it just because it can sometimes make or break a day. You might catch fish next to the road, but you're probably gonna catch a few more fish if you do a little hiking.

And plus absolutely nobody, if you're spending $700 a day fishing, nobody really wants to look upstream and see five people and look downstream and see five people. It's sometimes part of the experience, but it's always nice to just be like, shh, be quiet a second. Do you hear that?

Exactly. That's right. You don't hear anything. 

So that's it. Sometimes that absolute solitude is pretty amazing. 

So we've had an opportunity to, to begin talking about some of the clientele but let's just come right out and say it: who makes an ideal client? And we've talked about beginners, advanced anglers, various levels of fitness, and I recognize that this is a moving target, right? But let's talk about what somebody can do to make themselves a better client. 

That is just, I almost think that's unanswerable, because we live in such a tourist area and such a tourist driven town. We have people come in the shop every single night being like, man, I was going through the Park and I saw these people out there fishing and damn, that looked fun. Can you teach me how to do that?

Yeah. So we leaderally, like, we're teachers at heart, every single guide in this town, and there's three fly shops and there's probably 40 or 50 fishing guides in just our town alone. And nobody goes out and doesn't teach anybody. We're constantly teaching and it could be the most basic of basic pickup and lay downs to amend, to actually like reach cast and false cast and the more technical stuff.

And for somebody that's coming out and spending this kind of money on a week-long trip, I'd always say it's really nice to have kind of the basics, a pickup and a lay down, a false cast. A roll cast would be really nice, but we don't need it all the time. But I would, I would say one thing that just kills a lot of people is not being able to put a good reach cast out there or an aerial mend.

Just because a lot of these fish are tucked up like right into the shallows on the banks. And the second you put a cast out there and throw a huge bend into it, you move it three feet away from the bank, and you just pulled it away from the fish and they really never get a chance to see it.

Or if you put it right on their nose, you might get a couple seconds where it's going down and it's not dragging, but then it drags right over, and especially on the Fork, those fish see a lot of pressure and they see a lot of flies. Just today, I put down multiple fish just because it floated over 'em and soon as it went right over their heads, it dragged and you didn't see 'em again.

So yeah, having that good reach cast where you can throw an upstream mend in the air and have it land in position and present itself to that fish, that's a really good skill to have. And some people have it, but I'm gonna say probably 80% don't. 

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. If we're gonna rate skills from zero to 10, that's like a seven or an eight, where you, you, you cannot just show up and do that. But if that is absolutely something that you can work on previous to the trip. Yeah. And boy, if you can show up with a solid aerial mend that's gonna put that, you know, roughly where you don't have to be perfect with it.

Let's be honest, this is fishing, right? Nothing's perfect. But yeah, if you can put it roughly where you want it to go, that will be a huge game changer on these pressured systems. For instance, the Fork. if, if you can just do that along with a, a basic pick up and lay down like he's saying, you're ahead of the game for sure.

Totally, totally. And like, and the Fork and the Madison are different because the Fork is kind of like, almost like spring creaky in some spots. It's big. It's flat and sometimes you can only get, we are making 50, 60 foot cast to some of these fish today on the, on the Madison. It's like a bigger, faster moving river, and you can sneak up a little closer onto 'em.

So, yeah, on the Madison, if you can throw like a 20 foot reach cast, you're gonna catch fish and you're gonna get into 'em. Yep. But if you try and get within 30 or 40 feet of some of those fish on the Henry's Fork, it's, you're gonna see 'em eat, and then you're gonna see 'em disappear and you'll never see 'em again.

Gone. So, there's the very famous stretch on the Fork called The Ranch, the Harriman Ranch. I saw it a couple years ago, we were fishing green drakes, and I watched this big fish out there just doing pushups, and I stepped in the water and just the water moving from my body, it hit that fish at 60 feet and the fish went down and he didn't come back up.

And I went, this is, this is a different monster. It's different. So it's, it's kind of cool.

Wow. Fisheries like that push us in, in a good way. You know? They force you to be very cognizant of every aspect, which is one of the huge advantages of working with someone like you because you've been there, you've made that mistake, and now you're ready to pass along that knowledge to your clients.

And that's, that's the huge advantage to going with a guide for sure. Can people come out here and DIY and catch fish? Absolutely. And you can do it all day, every day, but sometimes learning just little tips and tricks along the way or like a better way to approach a scene can sometimes go a long way.

Following up with that kind of concept, we talked about a reach cast. Are there two other skills, you know, between your normal pickup and laydown and your roll cast or, or just even, even just being able to mend well, a nice upstream mend. Do you have anything else? And we've only really talked about dry fly and nymph fishing. Are there some streamer skills that folks can work on before they show up? 

Absolutely. I used to do a lot of casting in the ponds and casting competitions and like there's a saying, aim small, miss small and the only way to really get better at accuracy is to practice and we would have these big hula hoops. And then a smaller hula hoop and then a smaller hula hoop in the middle. And just aiming for that small target, it makes you hone in on certain things and ‘aim small, miss small’, if you're aiming for the side of a barn, that's what you're gonna hit. But if you're aiming for a nail on that barn, you're gonna make you concentrate a little more. So being able to put these flies in certain lines, like certain foam lines, like, like the fish we had today, they were just complete moving targets.

They'd be here and then they'd be 10 feet over and 20 feet back and over, and they were just kind of this moving target. But a lot of the fish we get just sit in these one little feeding lane in between these weed beds and they just go up and down. So being able to put that thing in a six inch wide lane and two feet in front of that fish is sometimes pretty crucial.

The one thing I would say is just practice. go out in the backyard, work on your pickup in your laydown, work on your false cast. The false cast is a big one out here because you're throwing a lot of dry flies and being able to put some power, pop all the water off that fly, get it floating good again, and be able to also false cast and get your distance out there.

Yes, the false cast is good for so many different things. Not only just cracking it and drying your fly off, but Oh man, I'm, I'm a little too short. You can add a little more distance. So it's a multi-use tool in my mind. 

Austin: 

But only if you're comfortable with it. Right. If you're, if you're uncomfortable with false casting and you're kind of flailing, it's not helping you near, it's not nearly the tool that it could be is all I'm trying to say. And so that's one thing that I work with my students a lot. Whether you're headed for a saltwater trip or a freshwater trip, being comfortable making those false casts as many as you need to, not making a bunch of extras, but as many as you need to. That can be a big time tool no matter where you're going to fish.

So that's huge advice right there. Big, big time advice. 

So the one thing I definitely like to tell people is use as little false cast as possible. Yeah. If you blow a cast, start fresh, strip it all in and don't try and pick up 60 feet of line, strip it back down to 15 feet and start fresh.

Yep. Because a fresh start definitely helps out. So like the other day I took out a guy fishing on our local reservoir and I was trying to teach him on his last cast to shoot a little bit of line and He would just let go of it a little too early and 30 40 feet of line would pile in front of and he would instantly go and try and pick it all up.

And I'm like, Nope, just time out a sec. Like strip it all in and start fresh. And like, cuz you bet you want that, you want that short cast and being able to load that rod. 

 Having control over the amount of slack that you have in your line is only gonna help you. You know, and that's what that tip's all about is making sure that you've got a manageable amount of line out there, making sure that you've got tension throughout your system so you can easily pick all that stuff up instead of trying to yank a bunch of nasty spaghetti up out of the water, which almost always ends badly in one way or another.

Right. So there's a great tip.There's several right in a row. This is exactly the sort of stuff that we love to hear. 

Let's talk about gear. So we've got several different rivers that we're trying to fish, but I imagine that gear doesn't change too terribly much in between them.

The one thing we really deal with a lot out west is wind and we deal with a lot of wind. And some days it's just so calm, it's five miles an hour, it's awesome. And other days it's 40 miles an hour, straight up river, straight down river. So I usually carry two fives and two sixes with me.

I tend to, if I have beginners, I usually tend to kind of lean towards the six weight just because it has a little more backbone. Especially for throwing nymphsS or streamers. A five might just get a little too loose on 'em. A six weight, being able to turn over a bigger rig is kind of nice. On some occasions if there's no wind and we'll throw a five weight out there and, and just kind of have fun with that, but for Yeah, absolutely. For the most part. We kind of tend to gravitate towards a six weight. Yeah. And not a, not a broomstick either.

I tend to like a flexi rod just because it's a little easier in my mind to kind of get some timing. You can actually feel that rod load behind you. 

Big time proponent here. You're slower or medium-fast, in that range of rod, is usually just so much better for a lot of reasons.

One helps protect the tippet, right? But two, you can feel that, feel that load, feel the tension in your cast, have your timing be way better, all that. So, I totally agreed. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Let's see, what's, if, if I am bringing my own stuff, okay what, what should I bring? And then do you have any preferences on lines and leaders in tippett, that sort of thing?

A weight forward line is always nice because you got that mass out front and it helps kind of turning over some of the bigger stuff. a lot of times we are throwing dry droppers and our drys gonna be more of a bigger kind of chubby chernobyl size fly. Yeah. With a heavy tungsten nymph underneath it.

So leaders, I, if you're throwing a big dry dropper, I tend to gravitate towards a shorter, probably seven and a half foot leader, just cuz it's easier to turn over those bigger setups. If we're throwing flies on the ranch or down on the Henry's Fork, sometimes we're gonna stretch 'em out to 12 feet sometimes. Get that big, bulky fly line away from those fish.

What gear do you provide versus what I should be bringing if I'm coming to fish with you? 

We provide the flies for the customers. We provide all the terminal tackle, the rods, the reels, the leaders, the tippet, the waders and boots are provided by the shop. So fantastic. Pretty much you can walk in off the street in a pair of blue jeans and we got you covered. Nice. So, yeah, the people who do bring their own stuff, awesome, man.

, and that's the nice thing is like, sure, I have some really nice client rods and if you're running an old Fenwick or an old 30 year old Orvis or Sage and you're like, man, I'd really love to cast some of those newer rods, like we got you covered. We have, I carry a couple Douglas Rods, a sage rod, and the Winston rod.

So if you wanted to try out one of those newer rods, like we could get you, we could definitely get one in 

your 

hands. Yeah. Nice. Very nice. And as far as you know, I know that the weather can change in an instant out there, right? Yeah. As far as weather gear, you know, what do you advise people bring to make sure that they stay comfortable and dry?

The, the, the temperatures definitely change out here. we're, we're in the mountains, like West Yellowstone is at 66 thou, or 6,600 feet. So yeah, it's usually chilly in the morning, so definitely like a light jacket or a hoodie in the morning and then a sun shirt underneath it because probably by 11 o'clock you're peeling off layers and you're gonna be roasting.

And then by the time we get off the river, you might be putting a hoodie back on. So, yeah, no doubt layering is a big thing out here. Some people wear thermals in the morning, some people wear puffy jackets, like a, like just a little light puffy and and just go from there. But definitely having a really good rain jacket helps cuz especially like, we're just gonna be kind of coming into what I would call our rainy season.

Yeah. It's gonna start raining and as you remember, last year we had just an unbelievable amount of rain and snowfall and snow melt, and we got all those big floods and I remember absolutely for like 15 days in a row, it didn't stop raining. every day on the water was just a downpour. Some days were going through two, two rain jackets a day.

So, it's awesome, it's definitely something somebody should go through at least once in their life. It makes you appreciate the sunny days a little more. 

Having a good rain jacket is really key. Just for comfort sake.

I carry some, like I carry some little rain ponchos in my truck and in my boat. Sure. And they're not top of the line. They're like $20 Walmart things that are just gonna keep you drying a pinch. But I usually keep 'em under the seat. And you'd be surprised at how many people do not show up with a rain jacket or, or a pair of sunglasses.

That's another big one people don't show up with.

Well, we're trying to, we're trying to change that. We're trying to change that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. So, so your normal sun kit, you know, you gotta have a good pair of polarizing sunglasses. Gotta have a good hat, sunblock, buff of some kind.

Dress like it's gonna be cool in the morning and warm in the afternoon, cuz that's what it does here.

All right. Is there anything that the client definitely should not bring along? 

High expectations and a bad attitude. 

Bad attitude? Yeah, we can definitely throw, toss that one straight off the list, man. We're, we're out here having fun and it, it's, it's all supposed to be fun. guides get a little ramped up sometimes.

And if you can't get the cast right, and I'm, I'm completely guilty of that cuz I can see you make that cast and I know you can do it and I just want you to do it and sometimes we get a little excited. So, but it's all in fun. Like, we just really, really want you to succeed.

Cuz some people like I. Like just having that picture of that trophy is just sometimes all that matters to those people. But yes, in another aspect. Just being on the water and having an amazing day is just everything. Yeah. And I'm very fortunate in my life. I've been, I'm 40 and I've been fishing for 38 of those years.

So I can go out and not catch a fish and be just totally stoked about it. And that's usually my saltwater experiences. Like I'll go out there and get my ass handed to me by a bunch of tarpon and perm at the end of the day. I go, yep. Damn. That was awesome. That was amazing. Yeah. And it's just so fun.

Absolutely. So coming, absolutely coming into any guide trip. if you just come in and go, man, we're here just to have fun. And if we're gonna try and learn a couple things and if we catch some fish, man, that's awesome. Like fish are the bonus in my mind. Showing people just an amazing day with beautiful scenery and like, I'll be pointing out birds to you on the bank and like muskrats swimming through the water and just trying to show you an overall awesome experience.

Let's talk about a selection of flies. Two or three that'll get the job done. You, you mentioned a chubby, you mentioned some sort of quick sinking tungsten nymph. Anything else that we might want? 

Oh man. I, I'd say if you were to tie like a couple good bugs to come out here, probably.

A 14 or probably just say a 16, a 16 caddis of any kind, x-caddis, snyder's caddis, anything like that, because that's kind of a universal pattern. You can throw it anywhere in the Park. Yeah. A good little mayfly pattern. Like a, like a pmd. granted those hatches are windows, so we'll have a window of PMDs, we'll have a window of BEUs, we'll have a window of mahogany, we'll have a window of salmon flies.

But a caddis can kind of almost be thrown a lot of time and, and do good. You can throw it pretty much starting now until mid-July. Having a good hopper pattern in the Fall or a flying ant pattern out here is really good cuz we see those bugs on most of the rivers in the area. 

That makes sense. And that's done well for me also in the past, just coming up and DIYing myself. Is there, what, so we talked about flies. Let's move right into what constitutes a fishing counter. You know, you're talking about looking for heads earlier. Let's talk about, that's so exciting, exciting for me.

Yeah. You know, as a sight fisherman, I love to see the fish, right? And I think a lot of people do. So let's talk about, you know, say it's, we're in the Park somewhere, we're on foot, we are moving up the bank. And you say, oh, there's one, how does that go down? 

A lot of times I just will just tell people like, Hey man, like let, let's chill out and watch this fish for a few minutes.

Like, not only do I kind of wanna let 'em get into a rhythm a lot of times, like, it sounds weird, I'll count how long between rises. Just because sometimes, if this fish is doing pushups and he's going up every five seconds eating bugs, like that fish is catchable. But if it's four minutes between rises like you almost wanna sit there and just let him get into a little more of a rhythm.

Because he might come up and eat a fish a fly that you blind casted at him. But a lot of times if you can time that fish and kind of like, you're like, okay man, he's gonna come up in the next five seconds and boom, there he is. Okay. Like now all of a sudden we got kind of a little idea of what that fish is kind of looking at and thinking of.

Sometimes they'll eat like giant clusters of green Drakes coming down. It takes 'em a little bit to chew all that, and then before they get into the next group, so if you're just sitting there like throwing a cast over him three seconds after he just ate 10 mayflies, you're probably just gonna float right over his head and you probably won't see that fish.

So a lot of times I just sit there and kind of watch the behavior of the fish and let 'em kind of get into a little groove and then we go for him. Sometimes, most of the time I, I'll try and approach 'em from like, probably even, damn it, almost every time's a little different. Sometimes I try and get from behind him.

Yeah, but on the Henry's Fork, some of those fish are just so leader shy. You almost wanna approach him from upstream and do like a little tuck cast, drop the fly and just feed that fly right into him. So it doesn't even get a chance to see the leader first. The first thing he sees coming down that river is the fly.

But some of those fish that are up in the Park and they're just eating Drakes or salmon flies, like it doesn't matter how you approach those fish, they're going to eat it and they'll just come up every single time and smash it. And sometimes they're so keyed in on a certain bug that I've seen it and I've done it a thousand times.

You'll cast, you'll miss him, and then you put it right back out there again. He eats it again. You miss him again. You throw it back out there again, he comes up again. So, certain fish act differently. we're very fortunate to have those Yellowstone cutthroat, which are maybe I. A little on the slower side of fish and they'll eat, they'll eat flies over and over and over again sometimes after you miss 'em.

So, yeah. So yeah. Every fish is a little different and I love that about 'em. 

So if that's the success story, what are some of the things that you see that consistently lead to blown shots or missed opportunities? And we've talked about some of them already, but what are a couple more that people can really look to avoid?

Man, like, I hate to say it. One of the first things is just trust your guide. Like, so, yeah. Like, I had this person on the river last year and we were able to sneak up really close to these big fish coming up on the Henry Sport. we were 10 feet, 15 feet from him. And I'm like, okay, all we need is five feet of line out.

That's it. Five feet of yellow line. The nine foot leader. When you pick it up and lay it down, it's gonna be perfect. And this person was a really good caster and all of a sudden they would just start peeling line off the reel and just throw 10 feet of yellow line right over their heads and that fish would go down.

What? So, oh, it's just one, one of the biggest things I see lead to blown shots. And yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna line a fish, you're gonna spook a fish, but just like you're paying a lot of money for that guy. Just have a little faith in him and no kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of really if, if they say like, man, this is perfect.

Just try it once or twice at least and say, okay, like, that didn't work. Can I try this a different way? But obviously. There's a million things that could go wrong when targeting a fish and setting a fish. You, you cast too far. You cast too short. You set too early. You That's right. Set too late.

You set too hard. You don't set hard enough. like, like the stars just have to align sometimes to catch these fish. Yes. But yes, one of the things we practice in the Parking lots is just enough tension coming up on that hook set. Because if you just kind of limp, wristed it and just kind of lift your rod and just kind of get tight to that fish, you're gonna feel, do, do, do.

And then a lot of times they just come right off and you're gonna go, oh man, what just happened? Well, some of those fish have kind of hard mouths. You gotta really stick it to 'em. Right. So one thing I tell people is a joke, which sometimes people take, leaderally, I say, if you can pull a six inch fish out of the water on the hook set, that's telling you that when you set it on a 20 inch, you, you're gonna, you're gonna stick 'em.

And the amount of times I've had six inch fish come up and hit me in the face cuz people just pull on 'em and I'm like, Hey man, that's perfect. I told you to do it. That's perfect. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Having enough just kind of going through the reps of just as soon as you pull up and get tight to that rod, like that's all you need.

Yep. you just wanna pull hard enough to get, I tell people I want those flies to start on the left side of the boat and after you set the hook, I want them to be on the right side of the boat. I just want those flies to leave the water. I want the indicators to leave the water and all I want you to do is just that and you should have a pretty good hook set.

So yeah, that's, that's excellent. People, you know, Finding that physical cue to tell people, to show people what you're trying to have them do is so critical, I think. And I think you've done a great job of that, you know, and that's a, that's a great tip for anybody listening who is unfamiliar with this cold water fishery stuff.

Being able to put a good hook set on a trout often just comes down to a nice firm hook set. But what is that? What does that mean? And so that's a great rule of thumb if the fly is coming up out of the water and ends up a couple feet behind you, well, that's probably, probably a good hook set.

I use the indicator as an example, like when people set the hook. I ask them, when you set the hook on that fish, how far did your indicator move? Oh man, it probably moved a foot. Okay. Well those flies are attached to the same line as your indicator.

If your indicator only moved one foot, that means your flies only really moved one foot. And they're like, oh yeah, I can see that. And I'm like, yeah. So what we really want to do is just, we want to get those flies to not just move, but we want 'em to leave the water and we want 'em to leave the water.

Yeah. Now, just simply because sometimes fish don't hang onto it that long. And if you give them an opportunity to spit that fly out. So it's not only the amount of power put into that hook set, but the speed of the reaction. Yes. Of, as soon as that thing twitches, you really want to kind of be on it.

And it's so hard out here because it's so stinking beautiful. People are like looking at the mountains as they go by. Oh, here comes a bald eagle, and I'm just gonna set the hook. 

And they're What? What? Yeah, too late. What happened? I don't know. Nothing. Nevermind you guys. Yeah. All the listeners should, should take a moment to YouTube how fast a trout can eat a bug and spit a bug.

Oh, it's, it's amazing. 

It's lightning fast. Like your bug is not just always gonna go under the water, right? Sometimes you're gonna see that thing just twitch or roll over. And as the season progresses and these fish, I  like to say, start to get their PhDs they do get smarter and faster and sometimes you just gotta be lightning quick on 'em and you're gonna be like, oh man, that was a fish.

Don't worry, we'll get the next one. But did you see how it just twitched and then kept floating? They're like, yeah. I said, well, normally rocks don't let go of them. When a rock eats a fly, it's going to eat the fly and like a rock's not gonna spit it back out. So when you see those little twitches, a lot of times that's a fish just tugging on it really quickly and spitting it back out.

So being able to hone in and cue your eyes to seeing those little subtleties is pretty awesome sometimes. And it'll up your game. Yeah. Absolutely. And people were like, how the hell did you see that? It's like, well, I star at him about 110 days a year. So, it 's definitely like, we're really kind of thinking like a fish at the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 17 years, 110 days a year. Let's see, that's approximately a gajillion hours staring at above. Yeah. Waiting for a fish to twitch it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Alright, so a lot of folks ask about, well, I'm traveling with a non-fishing partner of some variety, whether it's a friend or a spouse or what have you.

Is there anything in the area for them to do? 

Absolutely. we get a ton of people that, like husband and wives that come out and the husband will be in the front fishing, the wife will be in the back and she's like, man, I got a book with me. Or I brought my camera. The cool thing is it's like, yeah, there you go.

This is a really beautiful time of the year. Like there's still snow capped mountains, but we're dealing with spring bird migrations, so, Hmm. As we're rolling down the banks throwing dry flies, there are just crazy amounts of songbirds flying around the boat, eating bugs out of the air. There's a bald eagle nest along the river, there's an osprey crashing in the river in front of you picking up fish.

So, not only can you read a book, you can bird watch, you can do photography. you could yell at your husband in the front for missing all the fish. there's plenty of pastimes. And if we go into the Park, a lot of the places we're parking at are really close to these geyser basins.

So I'm gonna like, Hey, I'm gonna take your husband. We're gonna go down here a half a mile and like go walk that geyser basin, check out some hot springs, like here's a can of bear spray, and like go have some fun. And there's kind of a lot of cool stuff you can do. And so there is definitely opportunities if the person didn't want to go on the fishing trip.

, there's so much cool stuff in West Yellowstone from like a bear preserve we have here that has live bears and wolves. There's a lot of cool shopping and just a lot of cool hiking trails in the area. So, yeah. We can kind of cater to every person that comes into our little town from fishing, to food, to shopping, to movies, to, you name it, we have it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Well, we've got a couple questions left. One is really near and dear to your heart, right. We talked about folks on the water and how you deal with them and, and more than perhaps anybody, I will talk to you, run into more people on the water on a daily basis, or at least, you know, on the way to the water anyway.

What are some of the strategies that you use to keep it cool out there? You know, it's, it's easy to get riled up sometimes but how do you deal with that? 

Oh, man. So, like, the overcrowding and the amount of new beginning fly fishing guides that we have in our area is pretty amazing. And I could say like, man, they're doing this wrong and they're doing this wrong.

But guess what, we were all brand new at one time and we were all that guy that's yeah, who like low holds somebody or like pulled an anchor in front of somebody. But after you get yelled at a few times on the river, you go, damn, I shouldn't do that again. So you, you learn pretty quickly from not only those kind of encounters, but also your peers, your people you worked with and your friends.

And they'll be like, Hey man, I saw you do this today. Like, it's probably not the best thing to do. So one of my buddies, Mike, he told me, he's like, what's the first thing you do on the Madison River before you pull your anchor? You look behind you. I'm like, okay, because you never ever want to pull your anchor in front of anybody and just cut right out in front of them.

That's probably, it's probably one of the biggest no-nos in my book is just you wouldn't want to get cut off on the highway. You wouldn't want to get cut off on the river, don't do it to somebody else. So just having that kind of respect for everybody and we're all out there to have fun. And the guides are out there to not only provide an amazing day, but we're out there working, like we're trying to work really hard and make money so everybody should be playing ball and everybody should be working together as a team.

And yeah, I've been getting my ass kicked on the river and my buddy, I'm like, what are you throwing, man? He's like, pull over, let me give you some. And Right. And you do the same thing to the next guy. Like if somebody's just getting their ass handed to him on the river and they're like, dude, what are you throwing?

Pull over you. You load 'em up with a few flies that are working and kind of distances and how you're setting them up and just try and Right. Pay it forward. 

Like you might float a stretch one day and you're like, man, I got this baby dialed in.

And then the next time you go down there, you catch one fish in six miles, you go, okay. So we didn't have it dialed in. 

But, but kind of getting back to the question, it's nice that if you see somebody do something not awesome, maybe pull 'em aside at the boat launch and just be like, “Hey man, maybe that's not how we do it on this river.”

And how they take that is on them, right? I've pulled people aside and them being like, F you, and then I've had some people go, oh man, dang, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, I didn't even see that!” and it happens. I've pulled out, looked back and realized I've cut somebody off.

My first thing I do is I pull right back into the bank. I anchor up and I let 'em go right by, Hey man, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to do that, just kind of having that common courtesy is just a huge thing. And people notice that and people definitely notice that cuz we kind of West Yellowstone's only about 950 people.

So Yeah, the community's really small and the guiding community's even smaller. So everybody knows each other. We all have barbecues together and party together and like have dinners and if you piss one of 'em off, you probably pissed a lot of 'em off, so, right. So having, having most of those guys on your side is a big thing.

But a couple other things I definitely try to take into account is With these new guides we have coming out, man, a lot of 'em just don't know. And the Madison has been fighting the last probably 10 years on this like public/private kind of fight. And a lot of the home homeowners on the bank really don't like fishing guides and they don't like to see boats because a lot of these guides are getting off and they're trespassing on their property and they're using them as toilets. They're littering and they're throwing beer bottles. And not a lot of the fishing guides, but a lot of the recreational floaters are. So they kind lump us in with a lot of those recreational floaters and they treat us just like they treat them and they usually come in pretty hot.

So definitely respecting people's private property is a massive thing. And staying below the high water mark is the Montana state law. So definitely don't go walking through some due yard. That's kind of a biggie. And if I'm floating and I see a guy wading the river, man, I try to give that guy a wide berth.

I'll go way around him and I just won't bomb right through the water he is fishing cuz guess what? He's on foot. He's limited to where he can fish. We're in a boat. We're gonna cover anywhere from like seven to 15 miles today. So just because we missed that a hundred yards doesn't mean our day's over.

We're gonna go right back into the bank as soon as we get a couple hundred yards below 'em and we're gonna start fishing again. So, yeah. Just put yourself in other people's shoes and if you wouldn't want somebody to do it to you, don't do it to them is what I try and always act 

like. 

Chris, this has been a fantastic conversation. You've just dropped a ton of knowledge on us. We really appreciate it.

We've got one final question, but we do wanna take a moment here to give you a chance to do a little shout out to your local outfitter, whoever you work with and make sure people can find you on social or find your website. And I mentioned at the top that you're a photographer and I've seen some of your work.

It's beautiful. Thank you. And so yeah, just make sure that we know all the ways to get ahold of you, all your sponsors, all your people.

 I am my own sponsor. Excellent. Yeah. I'd like to thank my sponsor, Chris Daniel. Yeah. Yep. But I work for a fly shop in West Yellowstone, Montana called Big Sky Anglers.

Big Sky Anglers is run by four just amazing gentlemen that have all been guiding in this area. between the four of 'em they have probably close to, if not over a hundred years of experience. And it's just, they're four amazing guys to work for and they give poor fishing guides like me a good home.

So, Big Sky Anglers is who I work for. And we have just an amazing community. If you really love to find me on Instagram, just look up Christopher Daniel, or my name is  @MT406shooter and there you can see a lot of my travels. I go down to Argentina and Chile and Cuba and I have been fortunate enough to go to some really cool spots to photograph and fish.

Alright, so our last question here, and it's. It's kind of a philosophical one, but it's worthwhile and it's fun because everybody has a different answer.

Other than tipping, what is one thing that an angler can do to make your job better or easier? Smile And have fun. 

Yeah. Yeah. if you, if you come in crabby, it kind of sets a tone for the whole day. If you, if you come in with just an upbeat, positive, happy attitude, man, it kind of puts us in a great mood and like, it just makes us wanna work really, really hard to show you an even better day.

So, yeah, tipping is awesome, but it's not everything. Like sometimes having just amazing people in the boat or just, it just makes the day go that much better and smoother. So, yeah, I like to tell people just smile and have fun. 

You and I, we spend a lot of time teaching folks out there on the water.

I spend a lot of time teaching folks before they get to the water, but ultimately what makes someone a, a good student or a good client or a good angler is just about all the same, right? having patience, having a great attitude, having an understanding that you don't know everything, but you're trying to learn as much as you can.

Yeah. That's what, that's what keeps it keeps you going for all of us, I 

think. Absolutely. like there's nothing better than watching somebody catch their first fish and just the smile they get and you could just tell those guys are just so happy. And just, yeah, like I have people that come out. It doesn't matter if they catch a 20 inch brown or a six inch white fish, they're just so stoked. 

 There's nothing like that because that takes us back to when we were first getting into it, right? And where the excitement that we felt, we kind of refuel on that same thing. So that's how to do it.

That's how, it's what keeps me going, man. I love watching people just get excited about fishing. 

I can't get any better than that, Chris. So thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with us and you and I are gonna hang on the line, but let's, we're gonna wrap this up.

Have a great night, and I look forward to hopefully spending some time with you on the Riverside. I would love that. And thank you guys so much for asking me to do this. This was just an absolute blast.

Have a good night. You too.