00;00;02;17 - 00;00;29;00
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further and Brenton Graham. And today Chris Carr is back with us. And also for the last time, possibly, maybe we have John DeLuca here.

00;00;29;03 - 00;00;33;19
Brenton
Hey, guys. Howdy. That's, I guess.

00;00;33;19 - 00;00;35;13
John
Deferring to Chris.

00;00;35;15 - 00;00;50;28
Brenton
Just look at each other. John, you were trying to leave at noon today on your on your last day to get ready to leave for Saint Louis. But I couldn't let that happen without you getting on here. So I appreciate you taking time to come and discuss, start and discuss our text from last weekend.

00;00;51;01 - 00;00;54;24
John
Yeah, I when I started six years ago, I didn't think the last thing I would do.

00;00;55;01 - 00;01;17;11
Brenton
Would be to do it. Weird, huh? Yeah. Well, I'm glad it is. First, though, I want to take a little time and just celebrate your years here at Harmony and and also look forward to what's next for you and your family. So as you've kind of reflected recently in your time that harmony, what's what's come to mind?

00;01;17;14 - 00;01;41;27
John
Yeah, that's a it's a huge question. So I'll be as brief as I can of the last week, especially in Sunday. This past week, been really a great time to reflect and not something I usually do very well, but have been trying to take some time and just appreciate what the Lord's done. And so the word that comes to mind right now is joyful blessing.

00;01;41;29 - 00;02;02;17
John
It's been a lot of fun. Been very encouraged by the church family the last few weeks as people share things with me. But as I think for my my own walk with the Lord and my family, harmony was a huge answer to prayer in a lot of ways, as we want to get plugged into the church and grow.

00;02;02;19 - 00;02;30;18
John
When we moved here and then felt called in a ministry and wanted to be equipped and sent out to plant a church in harmony became tremendously instrumental in that. And so as I just think back, just a joyful blessing to be here this season. And really harmony has been a huge just answer to prayer as I reflect on that and the glory goes to the Lord and when we moved here, had no idea why the Lord was bringing us to southeast Iowa.

00;02;30;19 - 00;02;40;13
John
And as we look back and reflect His hands just clear. And that's that's what that's what our good Lord does. And so I'm just very thankful for our time here. Yeah.

00;02;40;15 - 00;02;52;15
Brenton
Yeah. Well, you guys have certainly blessed are church, but you also blessed our our own family, my wife and I and my kids. Our kids are really good friends. And so I it's a.

00;02;52;15 - 00;02;53;15
John
Party when they get together.

00;02;53;21 - 00;03;15;10
Brenton
It really is. Yeah. So I've definitely really appreciated having you guys here. But yeah, as we kind of look forward to what you're doing, we're also super excited for you to go and to kind of follow what you what you see the Lord doing so. So for anyone that doesn't know what your plan is, can you briefly tell us what your goal is?

00;03;15;10 - 00;03;17;03
Brenton
And St Louis?

00;03;17;05 - 00;03;44;08
John
Yeah, I mean, the shortest form is to make disciples. We desire and are praying and trust in the Lord as we feel like we're following the the burden, the passion, I think zeal that is put on our heart to reach people and specifically in Saint Louis is just where the Lord's been drawing us. And as we've prayed about church planned in Saint Louis, kind of immediately came to mind and did some research.

00;03;44;08 - 00;04;06;17
John
And it's kind of on the list of bigger cities in the Midwest or Midwest people. That's where the Lord's had us and where we feel like home is. And yes, Saint Louis is one of those cities that needs churches. There's 2.8 million people down there. And there are some solid churches, as I tell people. But 2.8 million people is not not too much smaller than the whole state of Iowa.

00;04;06;17 - 00;04;37;17
John
And so there's a desperate need for gospel centered, missional churches. And so the plan is to make disciples to evangelize us, to build relationships, and begin to disciple people. And Lord willing, seeing them come to Christ. And we have the conviction. And Harmony shares that conviction that as disciples are made, the natural outflow of that is that a church would be planted, that making disciples actually leads to to church multiplication, as those disciples begin to gather.

00;04;37;20 - 00;04;44;04
John
And so our goal is to plant water, and we're hoping the Lord will bear fruit that turns into a church.

00;04;44;06 - 00;05;15;08
Chris
It might be good for us to talk about why church planning is so vital to to the mission. And I think it'll be good for our people to understand that new churches are needed to reach unbelievers with the gospel, because research consistently shows that existing churches are good at ministering to established believers, but that new churches are much more effective at reaching unbelievers.

00;05;15;08 - 00;05;44;03
Chris
And so this is, again, one of the reasons church multiplication is a core value of ours, not just because we see it in Scripture, but also because we really believe that that's the most effective way to reach new people for Christ, either through new campuses or even really better yet, through brand new churches. And people that seem to be a little confusing is exactly what John's going to be doing on the St Louis.

00;05;44;03 - 00;05;48;20
Chris
And so he's not taking over an existing church. We have no.

00;05;48;20 - 00;05;52;10
John
Building right for everybody. Not yet anyway.

00;05;52;12 - 00;06;17;17
Chris
He's not going to, you know, again, like there's a church down there that needs a lead pastor. And so he's taking that new job there. He's actually going down, he and his wife and hopefully with some other people that will will join them to actually go out and beat the bushes, so to speak, and share the gospel and hopefully see new people come to faith.

00;06;17;17 - 00;06;39;13
Chris
And you're basically starting a new church from from scratch. And so the exciting thing about this is that it's we're not simply going there. It is to attract people from other churches or anything like that. We're actually hoping that there will be some people from some of the existing churches that will come together to send people with John and Ashley.

00;06;39;16 - 00;07;09;08
Chris
But it's actually that we were hoping that there's going to be new people come to faith and that and a brand new church will be established. This consists of largely people who currently don't don't know Jesus and that this will not just be Jaina John's intention. We really have it talked about this is but there's actually going to be a church planning movement not just a not just the one church, but that this church will produce more churches.

00;07;09;08 - 00;07;17;09
Chris
And hopefully this will not be the last church plant that we do out of harmony. And there'll be more of those in the days ahead.

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John
Yeah, two things there. One, I found this helpful trying to explain is people have asked me the harmonies got such a rich culture of missions globally and so I've it's I found it helpful anyway to know when people ask what I'm doing. It's like the intake to being a global missionary and a unreached people group and subtract all the culture and language learning will be a little bit of culture learning.

00;07;40;26 - 00;08;04;18
John
And then so, so fast forward, you know, 3 to 5 years which are challenging and we got some other folks going out this summer that will desperately need our prayers for that. But that's where we're picking up. And so I kind of know the culture down there, but we'll be trying to build relationships, share the gospel in a biblically accurate but culturally relative way, and go from there and then to touch on things.

00;08;04;20 - 00;08;23;02
John
Just to share some more of my heart on the church. We're hoping to plant a little, Lord willing, be called the World Community Church. And even that picture of the well comes from John four, but kind of pragmatically and a church planting movement. The thought behind that is every community needs it needs a water source, every community needs a well.

00;08;23;02 - 00;08;42;15
John
And so we hope maybe not in name, but that as the Lord does a work in our church, that we'd send out more places that live in water can provide the eternal nourishment that people need in different communities. And so that's hopefully will be built into the DNA that we make disciples and multiply.

00;08;42;17 - 00;09;04;27
Chris
Yeah, And just one other connection to hopefully make for for people here, the reality is, is that the world we live in today, that the the nations are coming to us and they're specifically coming to the cities of of the U.S. and unreached people, groups even are coming to the cities. And so we're going to continue to send people out.

00;09;05;00 - 00;09;38;00
Chris
In fact, here in the weeks ahead, we're going to have three different families. We're willing this year that we're going to send out to the nations of the world. They're going to go cross-cultural, going to go across the oceans. But the reality is, is that particularly in cities like Saint Louis, you have the nations coming to live there and so we're going to be able to in some ways fulfill our mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth by just selling the Lucas three and half hour south.

00;09;38;03 - 00;09;57;18
Chris
Mm hmm. Maybe I should make a note, though, too. In even in a smaller way, the nations are coming to southeast Iowa, and we see they're seeing that more and more. And so we literally don't even have to move out of our own community to be involved in in not just a local ministry, but global ministries to absolutely.

00;09;57;25 - 00;10;24;27
John
Yeah. There's actually in Saint Louis four times, they don't go in, but there's there's 80,000 Bosnians, which is still considered an unreached people group that kind of settled in Saint Louis through some more and stuff quite a while ago. And so there really is some neat opportunity even to to try to reach the unreached. And so those will be things we'll be praying about and hopefully finding ways to to dive into that as the church is is born.

00;10;24;29 - 00;10;44;05
Brenton
Yeah, that's really exciting. I think what you're what you're saying about church planning it, I think on the surface we probably have a different connotation of what overseas ministry looks like as opposed to like just church planning three and a half hours away. But really, it is the same goal. It's it's going to look a little bit different for you.

00;10;44;05 - 00;11;08;17
Brenton
But that's the same idea. We're sending you out to to people that are that aren't regenerate. And that's the plan to to make churches that that are repeated by it. It's it's really exciting and we're excited to see you go as far as you do leave for Saint Louis. How can we as Harmony members continue to support you?

00;11;08;20 - 00;11;33;25
John
Yeah. So number one, prayer, we kind of you know, we have information out there this feels so weird to say, but if you go to w w that the well, still talk that's kind of the website of the Lord willing future church plant and kind of has the basic information. But as a lot of things, there's kind of three ways you can join our prayer team with covered prayers.

00;11;33;25 - 00;11;52;01
John
There's a place to sign up for the prayer list and get updates. Even if you don't get updates and you know us and we come to your mind, just lift us up to the Lord. And not just our family, but, you know, the Lord needs to move. So we're we're planting in water is, as I like to say, but God's got to give the growth.

00;11;52;01 - 00;12;16;00
John
So I just said the Lord would open eyes and ears down there and that people would come to faith. We would now love nothing less than to see people and have people lifting that up and knowing that Mommy's got her back, praying for that. And then we're still raising some support. So we're the Lord's been a blessing there, but we're kind of finishing out and hopefully our kind of financial support team and the website's got that information.

00;12;16;00 - 00;12;31;27
John
And then the third one that I always like to poke people with, if the Lord, if you wake up in the middle of the night and feel like the Lord took it in your heart to go to Saint Louis and make disciples there, let me know and we can have some more conversations about that. So cool. Yeah. Give go there.

00;12;31;27 - 00;12;33;16
John
Yeah, that's easy. Yeah.

00;12;33;19 - 00;12;52;07
Brenton
We'll put the we'll put the link in the description here so it'll be easy for you guys to find. But yeah, encourage you to go there and help out. All right, let's transition into the sermon from this last weekend. I appreciate you, you preaching on that. And there was a lot more talk of faith just like last week.

00;12;52;10 - 00;13;21;25
Brenton
And so you're one of your points about faith on Sunday was the faith. The faith that justifies is reasonable. And Matt Mitchell and I touched on this a little a little bit last week about the notion of blind faith. And and this is, I think, what you said such a good response to to the objection that we have faith in Christ because of what we've seen him do in the past, because we find him trustworthy.

00;13;21;27 - 00;13;35;22
Brenton
And so you mentioned, though, that sometimes believers can fall into this kind of thinking as well. What would you say that blind faith thinking looks like in the life of a believer?

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John
Yeah, I think probably I'm sure there's outward things going on, but I think probably practically it looks like something internally going on. So maybe it's hard to see, but I think we can relate to it. You know, it's it's when things, you know, things don't always go our way. And and the Bible talks about that, too. And we have trials and tribulations.

00;14;00;05 - 00;14;30;07
John
And a lot of times the Lord actually used those to build our faith and to help remind us to be relying on him. And we see that with Paul and the thorn in the side. And so we can go down that path. But but often I think, unfortunately, our flesh response or sinful response in those situations is is as we begin to think, you know, and internalize like, well, I must not be believing enough, like I wouldn't be going through these circumstances if I really trusted God.

00;14;30;07 - 00;14;58;20
John
And I think we I know for my life and if you know me, I'm pretty optimistic. And so I have to imagine that I may be overly optimistic if we're being honest. And I have those thoughts where something's just not going the right way and it's like, oh, I must you know, it's kind of the this'll sound like a weirdly weird comment, but it's like that that animistic karma kind of slips in where it's like, I must have done something wrong.

00;14;58;20 - 00;15;20;10
John
And so I need to correct that or I need to have more faith. And that will turn it around. And that can be really simple. But I think that's a lie as we tell ourselves and not even go as far as something that Satan likes to whisper in our ears that, you know, you don't have that good thing or you're going through this trouble because you just don't have enough faith.

00;15;20;10 - 00;15;36;06
John
And I think we I've seen it in pastoral conversations. I've seen it in my own life, in my own family. It's just so easy to fall into thinking, well, I just didn't believe enough. And that's why that didn't happen. And we don't find that in God's Word.

00;15;36;08 - 00;15;53;14
Brenton
Yeah, So you're kind of saying that this is it's it's more of a, I don't know, ethereal faith. It's not it's not necessarily a faith in some in Christ specifically, but it's just a kind of need to have faith first, just to get this specific thing.

00;15;53;16 - 00;16;18;14
John
Yeah, I think that's how it plays out. It's circumstantial often, but then that that, you know, our lives are made up of a lot of little circumstances. So we begin to disconnect like we have this overarching faith like, oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. I said a prayer once and I believe, but then in reality, the day to day, we're relying on this, this feeling of faith.

00;16;18;17 - 00;16;39;25
John
And we just, you know, and you start adding that up and all of a sudden your faith is it's kind of a circumstantial construction of moments that either went well or went poorly. And then you tie that to how well you're believing that. I've seen it a lot. And it's it's enslaving if we're to use some biblical words there.

00;16;39;25 - 00;17;11;08
Chris
But I think that yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different ways we could take this conversation and things that could be passed out here. If we go back to the texts, you know, Abraham had faith in God's promise. So sometimes we're talking about like you talk about on the theory of faith. Faith. It's like faith based upon nothing like maybe God has said or spoken about or we don't have anything concrete to hold on to about the faith, about what?

00;17;11;11 - 00;17;44;07
Chris
And, you know, Abraham's faith, his faith in God has spoken a promise to him. And he had evidence that God could be faithful to his promise. And I would go, you know, we can go to another chapter in Abraham's life. You go to Genesis chapter 222, where God calls him to go to the sacrifice. Isaac And we're told that in Hebrews 11 that that Abraham believed that God could raise Isaac from the dead.

00;17;44;10 - 00;18;04;03
Chris
So he, Abraham, wasn't just a believer, Oh, God's going to show up or whatever. You know, he had a faith and belief that God could raise Isaac from the dead because and that was based on the fact that God had shown himself to be faithful in the past. And so this is where the word of God is so important.

00;18;04;05 - 00;18;29;05
Chris
And we have to interpret everything that happens in our lives. First of all, to go to to the word that you talk about, John talks about circumstances and we're going to see this coming week in Romans chapter five is like our our challenges and our difficulties in and in our lives. God has a good purpose in those two that he wants to do something in us.

00;18;29;08 - 00;18;48;24
Chris
And so it's not you know, we don't go through those things because I've I've done wrong or done something wrong or because I haven't had enough faith. No. God allows things into our lives and because he wants to develop ultimately our character and then our our hope to be strong in him. So we've got to go to the word.

00;18;48;24 - 00;19;13;09
Chris
But and then especially in the word, we've got to go to the promises and and specifically how those promises have been fulfilled in Jesus in his life, death and resurrection and God, you know, he never calls us to take a blind leap of faith. He never says, you know, you just got to trust me no matter what, no know.

00;19;13;09 - 00;19;35;17
Chris
He always gives us reason. We always have reason to trust him because we can look back at how he has been faithful in the past and how, you know, this is this is why really understanding the truths of that Jesus really did come to this earth. He really did die on the cross. He really did rise again. Those are historical.

00;19;35;19 - 00;20;03;13
Chris
They're verifiable facts. And they they are they're evidence that we can look back on and we can look to as a means and a reason or justification for trusting God in the future. And from a personal standpoint, it's not only simply, again, the cross and the resurrection, but even in our own lives, being able to look back at how God has come through.

00;20;03;13 - 00;20;29;02
Chris
And he's provided for us and he's delivered us and he's answered prayers for us, that should give us evidence to trust him in the present and the future. And I just would say one other thing here. I think sometimes we're we're we're trying to conjure up faith in something that for something that we shouldn't be trying to conjure up faith for in the first place.

00;20;29;04 - 00;20;47;24
Chris
And that God's not actually calling us to trust in something or for something, because that's not actually what he's trying to do or find it to to get for us. And yeah, so we could talk a lot more about that, but I think that's enough for now.

00;20;47;27 - 00;21;19;18
Brenton
Yeah, it kind of comes kind of full circle from our legacy. One of our episodes we had talking about it and these are the two to be able to look back at specific instances in our life where where God was faithful through through a hard circumstance or whatever to to really remember those things intentionally so that we know that when things come up, when we when that faith kind of is required in our lives, we have something to pull from.

00;21;19;19 - 00;21;39;02
Brenton
We know that God was faithful in the past. And and one very specific thing that all of us have in common is Christ's faithfulness and his in his sacrifice for us. And so but yeah, just the importance of remembering what God has done for us in the past I think is super important.

00;21;39;04 - 00;22;06;00
Chris
Yeah. I mean, he's using the example. We got a lot of kids that are just graduating high school and maybe some of them are even like still trying to figure out what they're going to do in the fall. And they're, you know, they want to get into a specific school. They think that that's what God wants them. I want to get into the school and having faith in God does not necessarily mean that God is going to get you into that school.

00;22;06;02 - 00;22;37;02
Chris
Having faith in him means trusting that regardless of whether you get into that school or not, he's sovereign and he has good things in store for you. And that good thing actually might be you not getting into the school that you think you want to get into. And a lot of times I have found in my life that the things that I thought that I wanted and that I prayed for and asked God for, they either wouldn't have been good for me if he'd have given them to me.

00;22;37;03 - 00;22;53;11
Chris
Right. Or the things that he actually did give me ended up being better. And so faith is not trusting in what I want, is trusting that God's going to do for me what is best for me because he knows the best.

00;22;53;13 - 00;23;17;10
Brenton
Yeah, and that was actually another question I hadn't fully formed yet. But it's interesting in verse 21 says that he was fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. And I think just kind of putting ourselves in his position, He he had a very specific promise to him from God. He knew what God had promised him.

00;23;17;12 - 00;23;38;20
Brenton
I think for us this many years later, reading Scripture, I think it can be more complicated to figure out what those specific promises are, that God promises us. Sure. And so, yeah, can you can you? Kind of. And I think what you actually what you said about the college example is perfect. Like God, obviously wants the best for me.

00;23;38;20 - 00;23;46;07
Brenton
This is what I think is best for me. So this is what God is going to do for me. But definitely not. Not necessarily true.

00;23;46;09 - 00;24;07;04
John
Mm hmm. Can can I. Can I sneak in? Yeah, sure. I was I was actually thinking this way as we were talking. And I think as I answer your question, but kind of going back to what is it? What does it look like? And I think some of it's the as Chris was saying, we we kind of look forward or trying to put our faith in in these promises that aren't necessarily what God gave us.

00;24;07;04 - 00;24;28;09
John
But I think a lot of that in a simple way is we get so bogged down in the little things of life. We missed the huge, huge promise, the huge specific promise that God gave us. And so we get stuck in a school or day to day circumstances instead of stepping back. And you're right, Abraham had a very specific promise.

00;24;28;09 - 00;25;04;04
John
But but so do we. And it's literally in many ways the same thing that to life. And so if you're a believer, we have new life, like the promises are being fulfilled and that we were spiritually dead and he's made us spiritually alive. And as we reflect on that and live in that, that should, you know, all the daily circumstances aside, and I'm not trying to belittle those things too much, but we're actually looking forward to his faithfulness and a future resurrection in a fully in a new body, that new creation in an interesting I want wanted to go to Genesis 22.

00;25;04;04 - 00;25;27;09
John
But I've learned, you know, 55 minute to an hour sermons. I've learned my lesson a little bit. So I tried to cut some stuff, but the Abraham had a very similar experience, if you think about it. He saw death to life through his you know, there there were dead reproductively. God brought that to life. And then further down in his life, he is asked to sacrifice his son.

00;25;27;09 - 00;25;47;28
John
And he just has confident that his faith is in a god, His has resurrection power that's able to raise him from the dead and we're literally sitting in the same seat. Our face a lot more like Abraham's than we realize, like we are trusting in Christ, sacrifice, having our faith in him. He's given us new life through that faith by his grace.

00;25;47;28 - 00;26;18;10
John
And then we're looking forward to the eternal provinces that you know as good as the little day to day stuff might be. We're looking forward to an eternal inheritance that Ephesians has some really good things to say in the vision ones about how good that's going to be. And and so I think, you know, what does it look like to live that way when we get bogged down in the little things every day as opposed to stepping back and kind of seeing the big, beautiful picture of what God's got planned for for eternity.

00;26;18;13 - 00;26;43;28
Brenton
Yeah. So had you at a think kind of started out talking about this but how how does this kind of apply to the word of faith movement that we've had spring up? I don't know. It's probably been a while now, but the kind of the idea that if you're not getting what you desire or what you think God should give you, then it's just a lack of faith on your on your part.

00;26;44;01 - 00;27;19;19
John
Yeah, I'm going to go where you're hoping I'm going. I'm just kidding. But go for Brennan's favorite topic. But I think the best explanation and we've kind of touched on some of these things, but to try to be fair with my perspective would be and that is there's a we'd call an over over realized eschatology in that I'm trying to be careful here but there's there's an over realization of God's eternal promises of new creation and no sickness, no tears and we enjoy God's promises in the here and now.

00;27;19;22 - 00;27;52;04
John
But that movement, so to speak, has a tendency to expect those promises to be filled with more fulfilled fully in the here and now. In a lot of ways, that gets turned in a way that faith, you know, in that kind of faith meter I talked about on Sunday, like if you really were maxing it out and had perfect faith, like Jesus and you would actually realize all of those things right now, and we would view that as an incorrect interpretation of that Jesus, you know, the Bible talks about we're going to have trouble in this life.

00;27;52;04 - 00;28;20;28
John
And so those promises won't fully be realized until eternity. And so because of that, though, and I'm trying to be gracious here, but that's that is where I think faith gets turned into at work. And so our our daily acceptance by God can quickly turn into, you know, how much faith we have. And so we're living our lives day by day, trying to muster up more faith as opposed to just resting in his eternal promises.

00;28;21;01 - 00;28;22;19
John
So Chris has more to say.

00;28;22;22 - 00;28;26;19
Chris
Well, essentially makes faith at work.

00;28;26;21 - 00;28;27;13
Brenton
Yeah.

00;28;27;16 - 00;29;12;09
Chris
Because word of faith you speak the words and you say it. Say the words, the right words. And with enough belief in the words, you can actually bring things into existence. Right. And the largely has to do with physical and financial health. And they make that honestly the the end goal in many ways of the Christian life is being financially healthy and physically healthy and just one I mean, you mentioned John being as gracious as possible, and I would certainly be as gracious possible to those who who may be influenced or I would say deceived by the word of faith movement.

00;29;12;09 - 00;29;14;09
Chris
I don't think we should be calling these What.

00;29;14;09 - 00;29;14;18
John
I mean.

00;29;14;22 - 00;29;36;03
Chris
I don't think it should be gracious at all to the Kenneth Higgins, the Joyce Stephens of the world. And I don't think we should, because I don't think the Bible would be. And Paul has some very strong things to say, especially like Galatians one, to those who, you know, corrupt the gospel, you know, let them be accursed, he says Galatians chapter or one.

00;29;36;03 - 00;30;01;27
Chris
And they really are perverting the gospel. It's also closely tied here, the prosperity gospel movement, and it's really damaging to to people's faith, because what happens is, is if you just have enough faith, you know, God will make you healthy or God will make you financially wealthy. And since it's not true, many people don't get financially wealthy and they they aren't healed.

00;30;01;27 - 00;30;04;27
Chris
And what does that do to their faith? It destroys their faith.

00;30;05;00 - 00;30;06;03
John
Yeah.

00;30;06;05 - 00;30;32;19
Chris
In and so and in turn, these are often men, but there are some women, too. They get fabulously wealthy. Well, I'm naming names here. You know, we're talking about Paula White. We're talking about Joyce Meyer. We're talking about, you know, any number of other names that we could include here. These people are, you know, fabulously, fabulously wealthy one.

00;30;32;26 - 00;30;38;01
Chris
You know, Creflo Dollar, I mean, just, you know, the name there. I mean.

00;30;38;01 - 00;30;40;03
Brenton
It's a stage name.

00;30;40;05 - 00;31;07;17
Chris
Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, we're kind of laughing there, but it's not really a laughing matter because they are preying on God's sheep. They are. And and again, they're really hurting people's faith and and they're making the point, be it about, you know, how much faith I have rather than against the object of our faith.

00;31;07;19 - 00;31;30;17
Chris
And also recognizing, as we see in the Ephesians chapter 289, that faith is a gift of God. Even the faith that we have is is a gift that comes from God. And if we have even if we have a weak faith, if our object is in the right faith, the right or our faith is in the right object, that is is sufficient.

00;31;30;17 - 00;31;51;11
Chris
And what's interesting, I go back to this story about Abraham. You know, Paul presents it in such a way that Abraham's faith never wavered. And yet we that's how you could read it in Romans four. But if you if you go back to the story, if you remember the story, his faith did waver at times bumps in the road.

00;31;51;14 - 00;32;17;03
Chris
God gives this promise and he goes out and he tries to fulfill the promise on his own with his, you know, or Sarah's maidservant. And so there were times where his faith wavered, and it had been about his faith. Well, then Isaac would have never came around. He was going with the Ishmael plan, and God had stepped in and say, That's not my plan.

00;32;17;05 - 00;32;41;22
Chris
And so I think that should even be an encouragement to us here, is that I think it's easy to look at Abraham and some of these other heroes of the faith and think, you know, I can never have the faith that they had. Their faith was so strong and so vibrant. And at times it was. But at times it was, you know, there's really there's only one hero in the Bible, and that's Jesus.

00;32;41;22 - 00;32;50;02
Chris
Because if you look at all of our other heroes, they had major, major failings. And Abraham is is a prime example of that.

00;32;50;04 - 00;32;50;29
John
Yeah.

00;32;51;01 - 00;33;17;10
Brenton
So getting back to the we talked about the word of faith movement. It practically if someone has kind of been pulled in by that thinking, how would you try to encourage them out of it? I think sometimes this happens even unknowingly to the to the person. But I mean, it's it's easy to find 15 seconds shorts on Facebook that we.

00;33;17;13 - 00;33;28;24
Brenton
Oh, yeah, I agree with that. And then you kind of get sucked into this teaching, maybe not even knowing it. How would you kind of encourage them out of it?

00;33;28;26 - 00;33;50;26
John
Yeah, that's I think there's a lot there because, you know, there's a lot of specific situations. But one of the things that Chris even kind of touched on, I think one of the things to be careful that I've seen a lot in that movement is is are you are you following Christ or are you following someone? And so some of the individuals I've known that they've kind of gotten sucked into that.

00;33;50;29 - 00;34;17;06
John
Actually, when I lived in in New Orleans, Louisiana, just outside the city, there was a pretty a pretty big one that I knew some people that got pulled into pretty good. But as you begin to talk to them about faith and about who they're trusting, and it just often came back to the leader, the, you know, the pastor or pastors or And so a lot of times the conversations were like, well, are you are you following Christ?

00;34;17;06 - 00;34;49;07
John
Are you following Creflo Dollar? If I am Christ, are you following Joyce Meyers? And, you know, and so a lot of that, I think, is just encouraging and asking those questions like, well, what like what do you think about the Bible? Or, you know, I mean, I'm not trying to oversimplify it, but getting back into the word and especially and I've seen hurt in this or some sometimes it hasn't been that hard because a lot of the people down there that I talked to, they they hadn't had enough faith, so to speak, in their perspective for something to happen.

00;34;49;07 - 00;35;09;01
John
And so they were they were broken and they were hurting. And interestingly, they're following a human. But then when that would happen, their their frustration or anger would be towards the Lord. And so that obviously created a lot of open doors to be like, well, what you know, where in the Bible, you know, does it say you're going to be rich?

00;35;09;04 - 00;35;24;12
John
Like Jesus said, you know, if you follow me, like you're not gonna have a you might not have a house. You're going to have a place to lay your head. And, you know, even with that, I was going back like the disciples arguing, you know, who's going to be, you know, your right hand man. And it's like you're you're going to die if you follow me.

00;35;24;12 - 00;35;49;02
John
That's what you know, that's what the Lord promises his his his disciples there. And so to get him into the word and like I said, trying to kind of juxtapose, are you following a, you know, a vibrant, attractive leader that says things that tickle the ear, so to speak, or are you really following the Lord and yeah, point them out in Scripture like Jesus said would have trouble?

00;35;49;06 - 00;35;53;07
John
You know, it's it's not there's not the easy life.

00;35;53;09 - 00;36;35;12
Chris
Yeah I think this is again, my understanding of what the gospel truly is. And the gospel is not that we get our best life now and the gospel is that that God has shown us grace in Jesus Christ and that we receive the gift of eternal life simply by giving our trust, placing our life in Jesus's hands. And that when that happens, what we get is we get God and we get Him forever.

00;36;35;14 - 00;37;02;04
Chris
And that that is the highest goal, the greatest thing that we can have. And that if were to have all of these other things, financial health and physical health, but we don't have God, we ultimately have nothing. And that the great thing is, is that, you know, Jesus, says Matthew chapter six Seek first His kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.

00;37;02;07 - 00;37;23;12
Chris
And I don't think Jesus means like all of those things will be added to us as much as we could possibly ever want, but rather our, our, our needs will be met, will be taken care of, and then ultimately, when the kingdom comes in its fullness, we will experience those things in a greater way than we ever could possibly in in the here and now.

00;37;23;14 - 00;37;58;21
Chris
And I think we've got to have the mentality where we're not living in the the here and the now so much as like it's all about today and getting everything now. What we're looking to that blessed hope and that future glory that we will have, where we will experience everything that we could possibly imagine having. Now we will have it one day, but really all of that will just be kind of the icing on the cake, because the greatest thing we will have is will have God and will will have him forever.

00;37;58;21 - 00;38;23;04
Chris
And so knowing the gospel and going back to the gospel over and over again, John's already pulling it out, you know, understanding what it means to follow Jesus. And I think really we just have to look at Jesus's life and watch Jesus's life. An easy one know, was Jesus's life with them, one without any difficulty or without any pain or sorrow.

00;38;23;06 - 00;38;44;05
Chris
Was it one where he had a lot of comfort? Not at all. Did he suffer physically? Well, of course, we know that that he that he did. He went without quite a bit. If I think we read it and if if we're Christians, we are supposed to be Christlike. We're following, you know, first, Peter, chapter two. We're to follow in his steps.

00;38;44;07 - 00;39;10;10
Chris
And so following in his steps means that it's the Christian life. It should be different than what the American ideal of life is, and just recognizing that over and over again, I would go back to, you know. What what are God's promises? God's promises are not that I'm going to be physically healthy or that I am going to be financially wealthy.

00;39;10;10 - 00;39;39;19
Chris
His promises are things like I've promised you, I'm never going to leave you or forsake you. I'm always going to be with you. I promise you that. That all things work together for good. That doesn't mean that all things are good, but rather all God will use all things for our good. Now that good's a lot of times that what we, you know, we want the good to be necessarily initially but it's the on the other side when again we'll talk about this this week Romans chapter five.

00;39;39;19 - 00;40;01;00
Chris
But when our character is formed and when we become more Christ like, you know, what I need is not to be wealthier or healthier. I would like to have those things. But what I really need is I need things like peace and joy and love and peace and joy and love. And my experience don't generally come as a fruit of of being healthier or wealthier.

00;40;01;03 - 00;40;01;25
Brenton
Yeah.

00;40;01;27 - 00;40;08;21
Chris
They come through. They come through suffering and difficulty and challenges. And we hate that. I hate it.

00;40;08;23 - 00;40;11;27
John
But the patients he didn't mention.

00;40;11;27 - 00;40;14;15
Chris
The Yeah something like many of the.

00;40;14;17 - 00;40;17;04
John
Patients and a lot of wealth don't don't.

00;40;17;07 - 00;40;18;24
Chris
Right don't always go together.

00;40;18;28 - 00;40;42;28
Brenton
Well and you're right I mean that that is even part of us being in the culture tradition that we're in. Those it's hard to have those things when you're comfortable. And we are comfortable. We don't we don't need them when we when we have what what we want. And so, yeah, a lot of times when you step out of that stuff is when you actually find that you need it.

00;40;43;02 - 00;40;58;24
Chris
I love this quote by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die and back. The word of faith and movement is that when Christ calls a man, he calls him to wealth and health.

00;40;58;26 - 00;40;59;11
John
Yeah.

00;40;59;13 - 00;41;12;24
Chris
And it's just it's just completely unbiblical and it's it is unattainable. Those things, by the way, for a majority, the people who have ever lived or completely unattainable and health and wealth.

00;41;12;25 - 00;41;13;13
John
Right, Right.

00;41;13;13 - 00;41;37;02
Chris
I mean, like it's just it was it was not even a possibility or or not it's not even a possibility for for a lot of people who are alive today. Now, we do have the benefit here in America, 21st century is like the reality is we are almost everybody listening to this podcast right now is wealthy. Yeah, certainly compared to 99.9% of the people who ever lived.

00;41;37;05 - 00;41;54;09
Chris
And we also have incredible health today because of just the immense blessings in our health care system and the access to doctors. And, you know, here's all these Iowa. We live within an hour and 15 minutes of one of the best hospitals in the world in the history of the world.

00;41;54;12 - 00;41;55;06
John
Yeah.

00;41;55;09 - 00;42;06;27
Chris
And that's really not overstating it very much. And so we we can have some of that. And so I think we can get this idea that that's the point. And It's just not.

00;42;06;29 - 00;42;31;06
John
Yeah. Then I'll remind me of Mark eight for what is a profit, a man to gain the whole world and for his soul. And there's more context there. But you know, some of the times, if the if the goal the world the the Bible doesn't connect that with with the eternal good for our souls so yeah yeah.

00;42;31;09 - 00;42;58;29
Brenton
It's really good I think yeah. We need to recognize that our faith needs to be in something concrete and, and that thing that is concrete is the promise, the promise of Christ. And so if we're outside of that, yeah, we can go a lot of different directions. John One of your last points from this weekend was our faith grows as we give glory to God.

00;42;59;01 - 00;43;24;08
Brenton
And I love that because I think it's so easy to get into a self-improvement kind of mindset where we just need to fix this thing and then we'll be closer to God. But but the way that we actually become more like Christ is to find our joy in him. And so can you expand on that a little? And how could someone take the first step toward that if if they're not right now?

00;43;24;10 - 00;43;43;26
John
Yeah, I'm not going to repeat a little bit of what I said, but I want to start with reading Psalm 16 and and maybe the first step for our listeners is you can join me as I contemplate this, and I've been thinking about this verse a lot and trying to kind of meditate on it and memorize it. And I plan to do that as I move to Saint Louis.

00;43;43;26 - 00;44;08;01
John
But Psalm 16, verse 11, you make known to me the path of life in your presence. There is fullness of joy at your right hand are pleasures forever more. And I, every time I read that, I think the first question that pops in my mind is do I believe it? And and I do. But just have been thinking about that.

00;44;08;01 - 00;44;36;23
John
Do I? You know? And so if that's true and Hebrews talks about drawing with confidence to the throne room, like we get to go to the throne room in confidence of the right hand of God or Jesus Christ is sitting, and there we find fullness of joy and pleasure forevermore. And and again, this a lot of this just comes back to the not try to bring up the word of faith, but that Jesus is not a means to the end.

00;44;36;23 - 00;44;57;04
John
We want. Jesus is the end. Faith is the means to get pleasure forevermore in Jesus Christ. And that's the goal, is to be with him and to enjoy him. And so for me, I've just been finding like, I need to take the time to just rest and think on how good God is, like what he's done in my life.

00;44;57;04 - 00;45;14;13
John
And I shared at the beginning, like Carmen has been such a blessing, like it's not an accident that we moved to southeast Iowa and got plugged into a place that the Lord is used to, to grow my faith tremendously in my families and to strengthen that faith. As we've learned more, I, I think there's. Okay. Share on the podcast.

00;45;14;13 - 00;45;41;03
John
You know, one of the things as we move down there in June is June is going to kind of be a bit of a family month and the end of it I'm plan to take the last couple of weeks of June not to hit the ground running with work, but to take time to kind of withdraw into the desert like Jesus demonstrated so much in his life and pray and fast and just try to sit at the feet of our king and enjoy him.

00;45;41;04 - 00;46;02;26
John
And, you know, six years ago, if I would have started a church planning journey, that's not what I would have done. But as I've grown and my faith has been strengthened, I can't think of anything more important to do as we start this church planting journey and we see we saw Christ at all the time. He withdrew to a desolate place just to to be with his father.

00;46;02;26 - 00;46;39;11
John
And I think he was out there being filled up, finding his fullness, a joy, and his relationship with his father. And we find our fullness of joy in a relation with Christ. And as we just think of how big and awesome God is, and that is what fuels us. And so so I'm really excited to do that because I need to, because yeah, hitting the ground, running to plant to church like I'm going to, I'm going to plant and I'm going to water, as I've said, but like from not enjoying the Lord, like I hope people would be drawn to be a disciple, to follow me as I follow Christ.

00;46;39;18 - 00;46;57;18
John
Paul would put it, not because I'm something fancy, but because I have a joy in a king in my life just points people to him. That's what we're called to do. But yeah, and not in a fake way, but in a way where it's like, no, I that's where my joy is that like, you know, he died for me.

00;46;57;21 - 00;47;24;09
John
He loves me. You know, it's going back to the Abraham thing. And it's like we, you know, we can waver, we can struggle, but we can be fully convinced because God sent his son. He loved us enough to to sacrifice his one and only son so that we might have eternal life. And I know that. But I think there's a lot more meat in depth that God wants to sink that into my heart, to know how much He loves me.

00;47;24;11 - 00;47;52;02
Brenton
Plus, I mean, yeah, yeah. And I think I love Psalm 16 so much. And just to hammer this home again, he he's coming out. What you quoted as coming out of a section where he says the lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. Indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance. So he's he is again, looking backwards, looking back at God's faithfulness and saying you've you have you've been faithful in the past, so I know you'll be faithful in the future.

00;47;52;05 - 00;47;59;19
Brenton
And I just I think that that's something that we all need to grasp and we all need to practice regularly.

00;47;59;21 - 00;48;26;01
John
Then and as good as any of that stuff is, as we look at those Ebenezer and that, you know, as you're referring back to when we when we understand God's promises in eternity and get Christ's inheritance, the promise that believers get is that we are God's sons and daughters and we get the full inheritance of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

00;48;26;01 - 00;48;46;22
John
And that's what we get to enjoy in glory. And it's going to be so much better than what we could think imagine. And so when we have those moments, we're just like, Man, God is awesome. Like, we're we're just hitting the tip of the iceberg of how good he is. And and that's what I want to meditate on and think about.

00;48;46;22 - 00;48;49;12
John
And and that's what that's what fills us up.

00;48;49;19 - 00;49;04;12
Brenton
It's good. Yeah. Well, cool. Yeah. Appreciate it, John. Appreciate you coming in today. Yeah, I appreciate your years here at Harmony. How many? Six. That what? It was.

00;49;04;14 - 00;49;24;27
John
So. Well, I get I got to be a good church plant person. I was a member of Harmony. Okay. Part of the family in the body here for nine years. So three years. Three years as as a member. And then the Lord brought me on staff. And I think a year of as a deacon and five or six years as a as a pastor.

00;49;24;29 - 00;49;25;09
John
Great.

00;49;25;10 - 00;49;44;06
Brenton
That's great. Well, I appreciate your friendship. Appreciate the work you've put in here. And yeah, thank you for coming in today. And I'm sure I'm sure we'll try to get you back on some point. I don't know. I'm not going to promise anything. So we back in Iowa. All right. Well, we'll talk to you next week. Yep. Thanks.