00;00;02;17 - 00;00;24;24
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. My name is Brenton Grimm, and today I'm here with Clay Baker. Welcome, Clay.

00;00;24;27 - 00;00;27;06
Clay
Hey, good to be here.

00;00;27;09 - 00;00;52;09
Brenton
One note before we get started. As you heard Sunday, Chris will be taking a break from preaching while he spend some time with his family and continues to plan the next steps for harmony. It's likely he'll be on a few episodes during this time, but you'll mostly be hearing from our other pastors. So yeah, thanks for coming in, Clay, today and appreciate your sermon from this last week.

00;00;52;09 - 00;00;56;08
Brenton
What was what was the process like for you this week?

00;00;56;11 - 00;01;23;18
Clay
Well, it's always hard, you know, especially when I'm not used to preaching week in and week out. So you've got to change up. I've got to change up. My regular weekly routine, said things, you know, to the side and try to buckle down and focus on the Lord is as always, faithful to me, even when I lose faith in him sometimes and preaching weeks, I think, Oh, this is never going to come together or this isn't any good.

00;01;23;20 - 00;01;49;02
Clay
But he always works it out and it does come together. And you know, by his grace, it helps people. And this week was no exception. It was, you know, you know, and it's hard to wrestle through these things. And you're wrestling with attacks and you're trying to understand it. And then just when you think you've kind of got it figured out, well, then you've got to figure out how to communicate it to people in a way that will make sense and will be helpful.

00;01;49;04 - 00;01;59;17
Clay
So it's a lot of work. I really have a lot of respect for my brother Chris and any pastor who preaches week in and week out. It's a it's a heavy load.

00;01;59;20 - 00;02;26;28
Brenton
Yeah, for sure. What's just happened here. So verse 16 says, Do you not know that if you present yourself to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey either of sin which leads to death or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. And Sunday you brought up Bob Dylan's song, got to Serve Somebody. And I had never heard the song either.

00;02;27;01 - 00;02;52;27
Brenton
So this morning I listened to it. One thing I think that he captured well was something that we've talked about a little on the show before. And that's the myth of neutrality, that no matter who you are or what you do, you are not neutral spiritually. And do you think that this is a mentality that people can get into where they think they're kind of in the middle, middle of the road and don't have strong opinions either way?

00;02;52;27 - 00;02;56;16
Brenton
And so they kind of see themselves as neutral in these things?

00;02;56;18 - 00;03;24;05
Clay
Oh, absolutely. And I think that is becoming an increasingly prevailing view in our culture. People, you know, want to be open minded and they want to be respectful, and that's nice. But along with that, I think they want to believe that there's more than one way to get to heaven or to be right with God. And so, yeah, they can see themselves as sort of neutral.

00;03;24;05 - 00;03;45;26
Clay
Hey, you know, that's good for you. What you believe is good for you. What I believe is good for me. And I just think that's one of just one of the ways that the enemy, the devil, blinds unbelievers to the truth. And I think is second Corinthians four four and one verse three, it says that the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

00;03;45;28 - 00;04;12;06
Clay
And then in verse four, Paul says, In their case, the god of this world, and he's talking about the devil has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel, of the glory of Christ, Who is the image of God. So yeah, unbelievers are blind. And I think one of the ways they can be blind is to think that they're yeah, they're neutral, they're in the middle.

00;04;12;08 - 00;04;18;00
Clay
God's good with them. They're good with God without actually receiving the Gospel of Jesus for themselves.

00;04;18;03 - 00;04;33;09
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the idea of tolerance that's been pushed for a long time and this idea of coexisting. You see the bumper sticker all over the place? Mm hmm. Which in some sense, I mean, I don't think we should be killing each other, but.

00;04;33;10 - 00;04;35;03
Clay
Absolutely.

00;04;35;05 - 00;04;46;25
Brenton
But our. Our theologies from all those different religions can't just mesh together. They can't all be true. They are completely competing. And so.

00;04;46;27 - 00;05;15;26
Clay
Yeah, it's it's logically inconsistent to think that those two those multiple belief systems can be true at the same time. But I don't even think people necessarily think that deeply about it. You know, it just is it's easier and feels better to say coexist and you know, you do you without actually thinking out the ramifications of that and taking that to its logical conclusion.

00;05;15;29 - 00;05;27;00
Brenton
Yeah. So I guess given that how would you convince someone like this that that they are either a servant of sin or of righteousness?

00;05;27;02 - 00;05;55;00
Clay
Well, ultimately, the spirit has to do that, you know, So I can make whatever arguments I can I can muster. But it's it's the spirit of God that has to remove the scales or the veil from the unbeliever. And so I think that's something we should remember as Christians, is that ultimately it doesn't depend on us to convince somebody of the truth of the gospel.

00;05;55;02 - 00;06;22;27
Clay
But we do need to be faithful to our calling, to be the light of the gospel in a dark world. So we share the gospel, we share the truth. I you know, in terms of an evangelistic sense, I always fall back on the resurrection. You know, it all comes down to my actual sincere belief that the man, Jesus Christ is also God, and he not only died, but he actually rose again.

00;06;22;29 - 00;06;41;23
Clay
And I believe that. And I believe that he appeared and that and the people he appeared to recorded that. And this is a historical, verifiable fact. And that's who I'm place in my trust in. And I believe in his promises. And then ultimately it's up to the person to receive that or not. Yeah.

00;06;41;25 - 00;07;03;00
Brenton
Yeah it's it's a good point that it to some extent it's out of our hands, but there is still yeah, it's just the testimony of Scripture over and over and over and over again that there there is one right direction and I think we need to be solid on that. So.

00;07;03;03 - 00;07;42;23
Clay
Well we saw in Romans one that everybody does have an awareness of God and, you know, they can look around them and look within themselves and have an intuitive sense that God exists. And so that that that should give us hope and encouragement and hopefully prevent us from becoming cynics that, hey, everybody's everybody starts with in a place that, yes, is rebelling against God, but is also has some kind of awareness or sense that he exists and that he's real and, you know, by God's grace into the spirit, hopefully he, through us, can penetrate that veil of darkness in their hearts, just like he did in our own.

00;07;43;00 - 00;08;14;19
Brenton
Yeah, I think that's good from a perspective of evangelism, I think one one thing that's almost kind of ironic is, is the the people that would call themselves tolerant and kind of be on that side of the road or are definitely not tolerant when it comes to our side of our side of the conversation. And so, yeah, even in even in that, they're showing how one sided they are on their in their thinking and how not neutral they are.

00;08;14;24 - 00;08;35;26
Clay
Yeah, we don't, you know, we don't want to pay when they paint with an overly broad brush. I do think some people genuinely are tolerant, but they just haven't thought through really what they believe and how all these things can't all be true at the same time, but they really don't harbor personal animosity towards you as a believer.

00;08;35;27 - 00;08;44;21
Clay
But then, of course, as you rightly bring up, there are people that are tolerant of a number of belief systems, but not Christianity. So that definitely is out there too.

00;08;44;23 - 00;09;17;13
Brenton
Yeah, that's there in verse 17. I find it interesting that Paul's specifies that his audience has become obedient from the heart. Seemingly he's he's convinced that the obedience of the church isn't merely an outward obedience, but has been caused by a complete heart change. So what do you think he's trying to communicate here? And what's the importance of us obeying from the heart rather than just a mere behavior change?

00;09;17;15 - 00;10;01;27
Clay
I think it's hugely important and it's it's a theme that we can see and scripture that our obedience must come from a changed heart so we can see clear back in the prophets. Jeremiah I referring to this new heart as being part of the New Covenant. So. Jeremiah 3133 he says for this is the Cubs of the Lord speaking for this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, declares the Lord, I will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts and I will be their God and they shall be my people.

00;10;02;00 - 00;10;32;15
Clay
And another famous verse is that of the Prophet Ezekiel. And he says, In versus 26 and 27, again, this is the Lord. And I will give you a new heart and a new spirit. I will put within you and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

00;10;32;18 - 00;10;58;12
Clay
And so these prophets were prophesying about a day to come when God's people would be obedient to him from the inside out, and that this was going to be a change in their relationship with him and their ability, ability to carry out his commands that for the first time in human history, there would be a time, I guess, post Adam and Eve, post the fall.

00;10;58;15 - 00;10;59;17
Brenton
Where.

00;10;59;20 - 00;11;38;16
Clay
We would have an ability to and a desire to obey him sincerely from the heart. And so that's something that's part of the New Covenant inaugurated by Christ. Paul's been talking about this in Romans a little bit. So, you know, back in Romans chapter one verse 21, he he refers to how all of us really in our natural state, our foolish hearts, were darkened and how God gave us up in the loss of our hearts to impurity, in the dishonoring of our bodies among ourselves.

00;11;38;19 - 00;11;58;17
Clay
So that's kind of our natural state. Before we come to know the Lord is our Savior, and He gives us that new heart. And in chapter two, verse five, he talks about unbelievers. He says, Because of your heart and in penitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

00;11;58;19 - 00;12;22;21
Clay
Verse 29 of Chapter two He says, A Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart by the spirit, not by the letter. That's it's got to be a direct reference to his equal. His praise is not from man, but from God. And, you know, in chapter five, more recently, we we saw in verse five that God's love has been poured into our hearts.

00;12;22;22 - 00;12;45;26
Clay
This is believers hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. And so, you know, Paul's kind of play in this theme, and, you know, he hasn't yet, I don't think got into any long like exposition or explanation of this. But he kind of keeps coming back to it. This the importance of the heart and how God's given believers a new heart.

00;12;45;26 - 00;13;16;04
Clay
And it's tied to the Holy Spirit. And this is why I briefly, briefly mentioned in the sermon on Sunday that we're going to get more into this in Chapter eight, because if you've read through Romans, you know that a lot of these themes that Paul is playing in Romans come to like a crescendo in chapter eight. And most prominent of those is this this idea of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, and the role the Spirit plays in the lives of believers.

00;13;16;07 - 00;13;33;24
Clay
And so where I think, you know, if you look closely, you can see he's hints and hinting at it and the new heart and the Holy Spirit's connection to the new heart and how the Holy Spirit has been given to us. And then in verse eight, he just kind of gushes about it. And I just I just love chapter eight.

00;13;33;25 - 00;13;41;18
Clay
So I hope you I hope you all hang in there with us. It'll be late August and into September, but it'll be it'll be a great part of the sermon series.

00;13;41;20 - 00;14;16;04
Brenton
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. One thing, you know, as we kind of talk about this just behavior change rather than a than a heart change, I've been reading through the gospel and specifically Matthew recently, and I think nobody probably personifies this better than the Pharisees throughout the gospel, where they they are doing everything they can to look outwardly superior.

00;14;16;07 - 00;14;53;13
Brenton
It's kind of a perfect example of behavior modification rather than than a hard change. And so and seeing really Jesus's response to them, which is not pleased. MM But what would you, how would you kind of help someone that does get stuck in that cycle, even if it is someone that we would, we would think is saved or at least professes belief, how would you kind of counsel someone that is stuck and I just need to get over this sin for whatever reason, but isn't necessarily coming from the heart.

00;14;53;13 - 00;15;04;19
Brenton
Maybe it's maybe it's just pressures from the outside that we need to we need to fix this thing, but just get stuck in it. How would you kind of counsel someone in that?

00;15;04;22 - 00;15;30;21
Clay
Well, it would depend on their individual circumstances, because one thing that comes to mind, though, is trying to show someone the fruit of their sin. And it's coming to mind because that's right out of our our passage from this last Sunday, you know, so so Paul says in verse 20 of chapter six, when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

00;15;30;23 - 00;15;56;18
Clay
But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed for? The end of those things is death. I think for somebody that's stuck in a pattern of sin, they can pretty readily see that the fruit they're getting from that is not good fruit and just helping them make those connections though, of, Hey, these are your choices and this is the fruit you're getting.

00;15;56;21 - 00;16;17;12
Clay
And, you know, ultimately, unless we repent and trust the Lord again, that this is not a believer, if we repent and if we don't repent and trust the Lord to forgive us our sins, and then we're destined for death. But even for the for the believer, you know, they need to they need to get unstuck out of that pattern.

00;16;17;12 - 00;16;32;15
Clay
They need to be the person that God's calling them to be. And so just helping them see that the fruit is all bad, but God has something so much better for them and call it calling them to repentance, to if not for salvation, but for continued sanctification.

00;16;32;17 - 00;16;58;27
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And that kind of brings me to the next one. You read a little bit of verse 21 there, but what but what fruit were you getting at the time from the things of which you are now ashamed as I was kind of reading through this passage, the verse stuck out to me, Is it good practice to kill sin, to kind of ask ourselves as we're tempted, what?

00;16;58;29 - 00;17;24;28
Brenton
What's the fruit or the result of this action? And Sunday, you you brought up your kind of ongoing issue with cuties. I think we've all kind of been there, even though they look good on the outside. You can you can tell before you even peel it that it's a bad one and yet you eat it anyway. And, and you're right and that's how we handle sin a lot of the time.

00;17;24;28 - 00;17;49;23
Brenton
We we know the end. It's regret. But even still, sometimes we ignore the result and kind of go for it anyway. Can you talk a little bit about this, this process? I mean, even from the like examining it at the beginning of like, okay, I know that this is wrong, but and that's one opportunity to stop. And then, but then we kind of just like we know that.

00;17;49;23 - 00;17;54;24
Brenton
But the well, what's that that kind of process look like?

00;17;54;26 - 00;18;14;05
Clay
Well, this is, this is why I'm so thankful that we do live in the New Covenant and we do have the Holy Spirit within us. And of course, that's not to say there weren't believers in the Old Covenant and that people couldn't obey the Lord, and they certainly did. And David was described as a man after God's own heart.

00;18;14;07 - 00;18;45;09
Clay
But in the New Covenant, every single believer in Jesus has the Spirit of God in dwelling them. And one of the roles that the Spirit plays is that He convicts us of our sin and and he helps lead us in righteousness. And so, you know, when we're in these situations, if you're a believer in Jesus, the Spirit is trying to get through to us to say, Hey, stop, hey, think about what you're about to do.

00;18;45;09 - 00;19;12;19
Clay
Hey, slow down. Hey, remember what happened last time and how that didn't go well. Hey, don't do that again. And then, you know, it's up to us to. To respond in obedience and to listen. And. And I'm just. I'm just thankful that the Lord does this work in us, or over time, he helps us more often, more frequently say no to sin and yes to him.

00;19;12;24 - 00;19;30;11
Clay
And as I said on Sunday, that doesn't mean we're ever going to be perfect this side of heaven. And, you know, Pastor Chris says it's not about perfection, it's about progress. But in those moments where you think it's going to be easier or you think it's going to be better for you to give in to the sin, I do believe that the spirit lives in you.

00;19;30;11 - 00;19;35;22
Clay
Then over time he's going to help you say yes to him more and more.

00;19;35;25 - 00;19;58;27
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. And like you said earlier, will be we'll be getting into the work of the Spirit. And in our sanctification as we keep going. But yeah, what an important part of this and probably, you know, a completely necessary part is, is the work of the spirit in our life for sanctification.

00;19;58;29 - 00;20;23;10
Clay
Well, we just, we have to sit under the teaching of God's Word, and that applies to me as the preacher first and foremost. So even just this past Sunday, after I preached, I it was in the afternoon at home and I don't even remember exactly now what it was, but one of my kids did something or said something and I was sharp.

00;20;23;12 - 00;20;44;19
Clay
I think it was one of my boys because it would never be my daughter, of course. But I was sharp with him and and I looked at Olivia and she looked at me and he's like, we didn't even have to say anything. But I said, And there's my anger again. And she just said, Yep, that's so. But then I had to make the choice.

00;20;44;21 - 00;21;14;17
Clay
You know, I went back to my kids and apologized and said, you know, that's what that was. And I'm sorry. And and I didn't I didn't let it go any farther than that. And they're probably that I'm not probably there absolutely would have been a day and there still could be this day, but there would have been a day and there were days where I would have just let whatever that incident was linger and I would have seethed in my anger and it wouldn't have just been one sharp word.

00;21;14;17 - 00;21;36;03
Clay
It would have been multiple and sharp words. And then this whole attitude of of, you know, anger or whatever would have been hanging over me in the house. It affects everybody in the house. And so I was just I was just thankful in that moment. Hey, there's there's an example. Yeah, I'm the preacher and I just preached on it, but it could have been for any of us on Sunday.

00;21;36;06 - 00;21;47;04
Clay
You remember the words of the sermon. You remember the word of God, and you say, Yep, not, not again, not this time. And you change. And I'm just glad that God allows us to do that. Yeah.

00;21;47;07 - 00;22;15;23
Brenton
But also what a what a blessing to look back even when we we struggle with these sins, to look at where we were before, to to see. And this is not a work of, of mine to to get better at reacting less angry like this is just a work of God that has taken this this sin struggle away from me in stages.

00;22;15;23 - 00;22;37;09
Brenton
Yes, but but we still see success over it. Yeah, it's such a blessing to look back at those things. But it's even interesting like this, this kind of situation we're talking about. We need to examine the fruit of our actions. But like you're talking about anger, that's an immediate kind of just gut reaction, right? So it's not.

00;22;37;09 - 00;22;38;14
Clay
Something can be.

00;22;38;16 - 00;22;38;26
Brenton
Well.

00;22;38;27 - 00;22;40;12
Clay
Most most of the time, probably with.

00;22;40;12 - 00;22;41;09
Brenton
Kids at least. Yeah.

00;22;41;14 - 00;22;44;05
Clay
I've certainly been angry as an act of my will to.

00;22;44;05 - 00;23;04;05
Brenton
Yeah, that's fair. But but for things like this, like kind of our the reaction after that is important to like, man, are we are we going to our kids after those things and asking for forgiveness? Do we do these things affect us because because God's changed our heart in this regard?

00;23;04;08 - 00;23;26;08
Clay
Yeah. It's so important that we respond in the moment to the Spirit's conviction with confession to God, but then confession to the one we've sinned against or wronged. And yeah, even if that's our kids and talk about eating humble pie, you know, going to your kids and saying, you know, I'm sorry, I sin, will you forgive me just like we expect them to do?

00;23;26;08 - 00;23;44;25
Clay
Of course, with their brothers or sisters or friends or us. You know, we've got to do that, too. And and, you know, I just think it's really important to model that for them. But it's it's just important for us to do that because that's what it means to be a believer, is we are honest with God, we are honest with each other.

00;23;44;28 - 00;23;55;14
Clay
We can say, Yep, I am a sinner and I am absolutely in need of God's grace. And I think it I think it's good for everybody when we can live in the light of those truths.

00;23;55;22 - 00;24;22;12
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like kind of a broken record on this with having people in your life to keep you accountable. But just like in your story, you kind of look at Olivia and she says, Yep, I mean, that's we need those. We need those people in our life consistently that are honest with us and kind of share and share our burden and those things and are willing to call you out on it and to help you through it too.

00;24;22;12 - 00;24;25;01
Brenton
And so, yeah, just another example of.

00;24;25;04 - 00;24;45;23
Clay
Yeah, thank God for good spouses, thank God for good friends. Yeah, I hope I hope we all have at least one of those good friends in our lives who can gently but firmly agree with us and agree with the spirit when we send that, yep, that was a sin and and needs to be made right?

00;24;45;25 - 00;25;23;06
Brenton
Yep. Yeah. Those are those are kind of interactions that happen a lot between my wife and I as well. So they're important. One of the kind of way you ended this message was to, to look back, look in and look forward. And I think we kind of covered the look back and honestly, we've covered that in the past, too, with this idea of Ebenezer, as we've talked about that quite a bit and the way that God has worked in our life as a kind of a means to to move forward and to really just praise God for that, for the way he's he's blessed us.

00;25;23;06 - 00;25;41;23
Clay
But I think that's one of the sorry to jump in here. I think that's one of the reasons why we love celebrating baptisms. So there's a number of reasons, of course, but one of them, at least for me, is it's a reminder for me of where I was and and it's a reminder of God's power to save. So I love I love celebrating baptisms.

00;25;41;23 - 00;25;48;21
Clay
And especially when you get to hear a good story from someone about, you know, where they were and where they are now. Can I relate to that?

00;25;48;23 - 00;26;16;07
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And then you had look in and look forward and I think the the look forward is something we've probably touched on a little less but is also equally important. God has made a lot of promises to us and we believe that he is faithful to those promises and that gives us the motivation in a lot of ways to to say, okay, it's it's it's worth it right now.

00;26;16;09 - 00;26;30;25
Brenton
There will be freedom from all of these things in the future. Hold on. Be strong. So show yourself a man to continue onward because of the hope that we have in the future.

00;26;30;28 - 00;27;02;19
Clay
Yeah, I mean, so obeying the Lord is not always easy. It's often it's often the the harder path to take. And so just remembering what, what lies ahead is, I think, you know, helps helps us persevere, helps us be strong in the faith. Also though it when when I like I firmly believe in heaven and the goodness of heaven and in the eternal state, the new heavens and new earth and how awesome that will be.

00;27;02;22 - 00;27;35;15
Clay
I think my brothers and sisters in the Lord firmly believe in those things too. And we don't really have a lot of problems believing that those things are true and so the one thing, though, I don't think a lot about is that if if that's the end for all of us who believe in Jesus, how much more does that help me trust God's goodness for me right now?

00;27;35;17 - 00;27;57;13
Clay
And so if I believe and I do and I think my brothers and sisters do, that guys got nothing but good stuff in store for us in the future, Why wouldn't I believe that obeying him, following his words, submitting to his plan for my life is nothing but good for me right now. That doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be easy.

00;27;57;14 - 00;28;20;24
Clay
That doesn't mean life is going to be easy or perfect. We are sin stained humans and we live in a sin stained world. But if I reflect on the goodness that awaits me and and know that all that comes from God, how much more then can I have confidence that following God now is going to be good for me?

00;28;20;26 - 00;28;28;22
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, those are good thoughts. Things. Two things to keep in mind and kind of meditate on.

00;28;28;24 - 00;29;01;08
Clay
Well, it's a way we deceive ourselves, right? Like into sinning. We nobody wants to go to hell. Of course, but we deceive ourselves into thinking that our our sinful way is somehow going to be better for us. And we might think that consciously or we might think that subconsciously. But, you know, you look back at the garden and that's the way that that's the way that the devil tempted Adam and Eve is like, Hey, there's this really good looking fruit here.

00;29;01;10 - 00;29;24;24
Clay
And surely, surely you won't die if you eat it. You know, surely you shouldn't trust, you know, what God told you about it because it looks so good and and you know, and he sees it and yeah, it does look pretty good. And so yeah I think, you know, or eve that that would be better for her and God must have been holding out on her.

00;29;24;27 - 00;29;43;11
Clay
And so they took of it and ate it. And I think we do the same thing. We think we look at the world around us and we look at what it has to offer and we deceive ourselves into thinking that that's going to be better for us. And so we partake of that. And of course it's not. And that's the and that's what we've been talking about.

00;29;43;11 - 00;29;50;25
Clay
We can look as Christians, we can look back and see that it's it's not actually better for us. Yeah.

00;29;50;27 - 00;30;01;21
Brenton
Yeah. All right. Well, that's all I got today. I appreciate you coming in. Thank you for your message. And I'm sure you'll be back soon.

00;30;01;24 - 00;30;12;08
Clay
With Chris being now, it's great to be on. I hope I can be back again soon. And it's always a pleasure. And it's absolutely a privilege to preach God's word to that. People.

00;30;12;10 - 00;30;15;16
Brenton
Yep. Vibration. Well, we'll talk to you next week. Thanks, guys.