00;00;02;18 - 00;00;22;18
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth, the transforms our lives. Welcome back to further Britten Grimm. And I'm here again with Chris Carr. How's it going?

00;00;22;20 - 00;00;34;01
Chris
Pretty good. Had a really, really busy week of ministry last week, but it was good and I think was really fruitful. So excited about that and what he has for us this week.

00;00;34;04 - 00;00;56;21
Brenton
Good. Always have a lot going on here. That's good. This past Sunday, we continued through Romans eight and we went through verses five through 13. Where Paul is is really giving us a good look at what it means to be a believer and specifically the Spirit's role in the believer's life. And so, yeah, given that, I want to start.

00;00;56;23 - 00;01;33;00
Brenton
Last week we spent a little time talking about the Spirit's role. And I think one thing that we find throughout Christendom or different sects is that you can you can kind of be in two different camps. Either you spend way too much time focusing on the work of the spirit where it's kind of overemphasized over above the other two persons of the Trinity or I think kind of something we're probably more familiar with here is just a lack of of emphasis of him at all and his work.

00;01;33;00 - 00;01;44;13
Brenton
And so I guess my question is, why do you think that those two ditches exist? Why? Why, why are some people overemphasizing it and why are some people kind of scared to talk about it?

00;01;44;16 - 00;02;23;10
Chris
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that there probably numerous answers to this, but for me, I would say the biggest reason is that there's really a lack of understanding about what the Bible teaches about the work of the Holy Spirit. And so on the one side, maybe the overemphasis on the Spirit is because there's a failure to understand that the primary role of the Holy Spirit is to help us to grow in maturity in Christ and to do so by pointing us to Christ in the work of Christ on our behalf.

00;02;23;12 - 00;02;54;23
Chris
And that that's, you know, his primary work is not to draw attention to himself, it's to draw attention to Christ. And so I think on the one side, there's a lack of understanding. There, and I can talk about that more. But but just that's kind of a summary. And then on the other side is that where there's a lack of emphasis on him at all is not understanding how significant of a role he's meant to play in the spiritual life.

00;02;54;23 - 00;03;19;24
Chris
And we really see this most notably in Romans chapter eight. We're going to see it again this coming week about how the Holy Spirit is the one who helps us to find assurance. The Holy Spirit is the one who helps us to prayer and makes our prayers effective, especially when we don't know what to pray for. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us confidence that we are God's children.

00;03;19;26 - 00;03;44;17
Chris
And there's just I mean, we could we could talk about this kind of ad nauseum throughout the New Testament, about all of the ways that the spirit empowers the Christian life. And so the point is not about the spirit, but the spirit is essential to us being and becoming the people that that God wants us to be.

00;03;44;20 - 00;04;20;28
Brenton
Yeah, for sure. I think maybe we just don't, at least on kind of my side, my band, I suppose, is to put an under emphasis on him, and I wonder if some of that is the kind of shying away from sign gifts because a lot of that kind of when we think about the spirit, we we kind of think about prophesying and speaking in tongues and things like that and yeah, that hasn't been that's something that I haven't spent a lot of time in.

00;04;20;28 - 00;04;51;04
Brenton
And that, quite frankly, makes me a little uncomfortable. Yeah, but we, we maybe don't assign like the, the things that you just listed out, the things that Paul says in Romans eight, like we need the spirit to make our prayers effective. We need him to point us to Christ. We need the way he regenerated us. And so like those things that we kind of just think happened in the background, maybe those are those are vital things of the spirit.

00;04;51;05 - 00;04;52;06
Brenton
Sure.

00;04;52;08 - 00;05;26;16
Chris
Sure. Yeah. I think generally speaking, for our church, we can be hesitant about the spirit because of the excesses, excesses of the Charismatic movement. Yeah, and some of the even abuses. But then we can overcorrect in that we just don't really talk about and or consider the Holy Spirit nearly enough. And, you know, in John chapter 15, Jesus says, Without me, you can do nothing.

00;05;26;18 - 00;05;50;15
Chris
And so we tend to think, okay, solely about Jesus in that. But but you will notice in our texts this week, it's the Spirit of Christ. And so the way that Jesus works in us and and through us to produce fruit is through the Holy Spirit within us. And so we should never separate the Godhead. And oftentimes we do.

00;05;50;17 - 00;06;04;19
Chris
We love Jesus. We love the Father. And then this Holy Spirit, we were just kind of not sure what to do with him. And that's something we really need to to grow in.

00;06;04;21 - 00;06;05;12
Brenton
Yeah, for.

00;06;05;12 - 00;06;11;19
Chris
Sure. I know that. I need to for sure. I mean, this is definitely been convicting for me. Yeah.

00;06;11;21 - 00;06;28;03
Brenton
Yeah. And maybe. Maybe it would be helpful and, um, for another time just to kind of talk through Trinitarian theology and actually talk more in-depth about how. How all of the persons work together.

00;06;28;05 - 00;06;54;00
Chris
Yeah, well, it's interesting, you know, verse nine, we, we literally have the Trinity in verse nine. You have a river, not in the flesh, but in the spirit. If in fact the spirit of God that's the father dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, there's the Son does not belong to him. That is is one of the essential Trinitarian verses in the entire Bible.

00;06;54;03 - 00;07;11;05
Chris
And I didn't have time to get into it. And that was there was a number of different things. And I'm like, Oh, I can talk about that. I can talk about that. And then I'm like, okay, this is going to be an hour and a half message. So it certainly would behoove us to talk about the church at some point because it.

00;07;11;07 - 00;07;38;20
Brenton
It's one of those things that like it. It seems like a topic that we should leave to, you know, theologians and these how do you kind of thinkers. But like I think the insight to some extent, like we're not accepting how important it is and how based basic it is like to our theology that we have a Trinitarian gospel, that we understand that each person of the Trinity worked in the situation to to bring us to him.

00;07;38;22 - 00;07;43;09
Brenton
Sure. Yeah. How? Yeah. It's just foundational to what we believe. So.

00;07;43;16 - 00;08;18;22
Chris
Yeah. I mean, you and I were doing a video series together, shooting a video series last week, and one of the sessions I brought up how the. The Trinity is just essential to us, even understanding ourselves. God made us in his image, in God exist in in relationship, in community. The Godhead does with with one another. And it was out of the love that they have for one another, that they created mankind, they created the world.

00;08;18;22 - 00;08;45;28
Chris
And so it's absolutely fundamental Understanding the Trinity is actually absolutely fundamental to understanding the world and humanity and how God created us to interact with not only him before, with one another. There's so much there. And then you go to salvation. We really need to understand how each member of the Trinity is involved with our salvation. So just to run through it, the father planned our redemption.

00;08;46;00 - 00;09;10;20
Chris
The son came and accomplish our redemption dominion. And now we're seeing here in Romans eight, the Holy Spirit applies that redemption to us. And that means much, much more. I hope everybody is getting there. So far it means much, much more than than we often think that it does about that its salvation is so much more than we're simply, you know, not going to hell and we're getting to go to heaven.

00;09;10;22 - 00;09;41;09
Chris
There's just so much more to it than that. And it it literally touches every area of our lives. And when we get it transforms our lives where we understand that there's no condemnation. What does that mean? And how do I view God, how they view myself, how to meet other people? And that's just that's just one example. This coming week, we're going to talk about things like putting to death the needs of the body, which is here's a big term just to give a preview mortification.

00;09;41;11 - 00;10;06;13
Chris
So there's that. And then we're going to go in and talk about how now we are sons and daughters of God. We you know, the adoption was just as a part of salvation. We are children were heirs. And all of that means and I, I get the sense that the the spirit here, here we go is is working and people are grabbing hold of the gospel in a deeper way.

00;10;06;13 - 00;10;08;02
Chris
I hope that that's certainly true. Yeah.

00;10;08;09 - 00;10;28;26
Brenton
I mean, absolutely. You specified the verses five through 11 are actually descriptive rather than prescriptive. And I want to kind of get from you why why is that important to point out what what effect does that have on our beliefs to understand that distinction there?

00;10;28;28 - 00;10;57;12
Chris
So I try to emphasize this pretty strongly. I said it a number of times because it's important for us to recognize that Paul is is he's not telling us what we should do. We should we should not read these verses thinking that we should set our mind on the spirit rather than on the flesh. Not we should. And he's going to get to that in verses 12 to 13.

00;10;57;12 - 00;11;20;01
Chris
But first of all, he's he's laying out this new life in the spirit and what this new life looks like, what the reality is, because it's only when we we realize what God has done for us through his spirit, then then we're going to be empowered to be who we are and to be what we are, so to speak.

00;11;20;03 - 00;11;57;08
Chris
And so, you know, so in verse eight, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. And then verse nine You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. If in fact the spirit of God dwells in you, He's not telling us to live in the Spirit, and then you will be pleasing to God. He's saying, you, you are pleasing to God because you are in the Spirit and now rightfully understanding that that gives us the motivation and the desire and the empowerment to live by the spirit and to walk according to the spirit.

00;11;57;08 - 00;12;24;25
Chris
So I think it's important in terms of and I talk about this all the time, I hope people are getting it is I don't go out and obey in order to be saved. I obey because I am safe. It makes all the difference in the world. And so many people, they live even if they don't conscientiously, you know, recognize this or consciously recognize this is so often go out.

00;12;24;25 - 00;12;50;05
Chris
It's like, I've got to obey, I got to obey and then I'll be accepted. No, I am accepted. And I live in that acceptance. And now because I have that security, because I know there's no condemnation over me, well, now that gives me the freedom and the joy to actually live as if I am not condemned and to live a life of obedience.

00;12;50;05 - 00;13;07;09
Chris
And so that's why I think it's so important. I think that the the passage loses its power if we view it as what we are supposed to do rather than what is true for us because of what God has done for us through His son and his spirit.

00;13;07;11 - 00;13;24;10
Brenton
There's obviously people that would that would disagree with your interpretation here. And so, like what what effects would that have if somebody was reading through Romans eight and and kind of saw that as the command to to do these things, what is what does that change?

00;13;24;13 - 00;13;56;09
Chris
Well, first of all, I think that this drives this kind of work, salvation kind of mentality is that if I do the right things and if I'm good enough, then I will be accepted that God will be pleased with me. And now I want to be careful here because we we can please God, like by by the way that we live.

00;13;56;09 - 00;14;22;01
Chris
And we should seek to please him by the way we live. But but we have to understand that objectively, because of Christ being in Christ, we are already pleasing to God, not because of what we do, but because of what Christ has done. And now because I am pleasing to Him in Christ and through His Spirit, I have the ability in the day to day of my life to please him.

00;14;22;04 - 00;14;49;11
Chris
So I just I think it really comes down to when we view this as prescriptive rather than as descriptive, our assurance goes out the window and my experiences is there's so, so many people who struggle with the assurance of their salvation simply because they believe that they haven't done enough or aren't doing enough or they've messed up too much.

00;14;49;14 - 00;15;16;06
Chris
Rather than being able to understand that and seeing about the truth of what God has done for us and Christ apart from anything that we do. Another reason I think it's important to interpret this as descriptive rather than prescriptive is because it also can can challenge us to though maybe this is the other side of it to really to analyze and assess ourselves.

00;15;16;06 - 00;15;40;27
Chris
Are we truly in the faith so that if someone, for example, is not submitting to God's law, I take verse seven for the mind that is said on the flesh is hostile to God, for does not submit to God's law. If somebody is not submitting to God's law. Or maybe you could say this if this description here isn't the description of you in some measure not not perfectly in some measure, then you really had a question.

00;15;40;27 - 00;15;58;13
Chris
Okay, do I have the spirit of God living in me? And I hope that was was clear enough. But I think that we should also be challenged and we're going to be challenged this week when we get the verses 12 through 13 that well, maybe I'll just get to it right here for if you live according to the flesh, you will die.

00;15;58;13 - 00;16;20;13
Chris
But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will you will live. And what Paul is, he is is being both descriptive and prescriptive here. He's saying that this is what believers do so that means that you should be doing it. And if you're not doing it, then you know there's a warning implicit in that.

00;16;20;15 - 00;16;45;04
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. I think it's just another, another view or another way to look at this is that we've we've spent weeks now talking about justification right. Like Paul has been working through what justifies us and it's not this and so like he's writing Romans eight here presupposing that his audience is already justified. Sure. Like, this isn't a way.

00;16;45;08 - 00;16;52;18
Brenton
This isn't his means of justification. This is living in light of our justification. And what is what does our life look like?

00;16;52;20 - 00;17;15;12
Chris
Right. Yeah, I know. That's a great point. You know, he's going to go on and say, you know, for you to not receive the spirit of slavery verse 15 to fall back, the fear of it, you see the spirit of adoption. You knew you did. Yep. And so I think really what you're pointing out to is justification leads to sanctification.

00;17;15;14 - 00;17;48;02
Chris
It's not a question. If you are justified, you're going to be sanctified. You're going to say no to sin. And yes, not not perfectly. I mean, this is where we've got to keep all of this. Impels Room seven Paul's very clear. He didn't perfectly. It's not perfection it's about direction. Yeah and and so I think that that's another reason that's important for the descriptive prescriptive balance here is that it challenges to look at the direction of our life.

00;17;48;05 - 00;18;13;26
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. And we'll get into it a little bit more. But the yeah, I like viewing this as almost a warning passage of it. Maybe warning isn't the right word, but a time to kind of reexamine ourselves and and make sure and see if these things are actually true of ourselves. Be honest. Yeah, I really appreciated the way you stated the end of verse nine positively.

00;18;13;28 - 00;18;38;27
Brenton
Paul says, Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. Your point was that if if that's true, the opposite is also true. Anyone who does have the spirit does belong to him. And so you use this to talk about the assurance that we have in Christ through the Spirit. And I know this really can be a struggle for some.

00;18;38;29 - 00;18;47;25
Brenton
We'll talk more about this toward the end of Romans eight, I think. But for now, could you explain how the spirit assures believers of their salvation?

00;18;47;27 - 00;19;33;23
Chris
So there's a great question. Verse 16 says, The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. I believe that that happens as we set our mind on the things of the Spirit and the things of the Spirit are the gospel truths, some of which we've talked about here in the first two weeks as we've studied verses one through 13 truths, such as there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus truths such as the spirit of life, who set us free in Christ years from laughs and industries like God is with the law, couldn't do by sending his own son so that sin could be condemned in him rather

00;19;33;23 - 00;20;07;20
Chris
than in us. And then on top of that, we now have the righteousness of Christ. And so as we set our minds on those things, and I think setting in our minds means we think about those things. We focus on those things, we pray over those things. We have other people either preaching those things to us or encouraging those things on us, that the the spirit just gives us an internal witness and assurance and a confidence that those things are true for us.

00;20;07;22 - 00;20;42;09
Chris
Either he convinces of them that they're not true, and then then then therefore we we come to salvation, they become true of us, or they just he just, you know, gives us that internal assurance that those things really are true for us. And so it's it's largely I think that happens is we set our minds on on, on the God's word and we have that being spoken to us or sung over us or sung by us.

00;20;42;12 - 00;21;03;22
Chris
So by that I mean to go back to the song that the new song that that's been in singing is, is so important. So I would say that it is in some ways a little hard to describe about how this happens and how the spirit does that. But I think that that's what Paul is explaining here. Yeah.

00;21;03;24 - 00;21;44;03
Brenton
Yeah, it's helpful. But so what about false assurance? So, I mean, we would all kind of admit that that not every profession of faith is necessarily a legitimate one. I guess, first of all, what is a believer's responsibility if if they think that someone is a false convert, like what should those steps be for how we kind of point that out in someone's life?

00;21;44;05 - 00;22;13;21
Chris
Well, you're opening up a can of worms. Here is a big discussion. First of all, I think we should always be examining our own self more than other people. Yeah. So. And second, Raytheon's 13 five tells us to examine ourselves literally. Paul says, Test yourselves to see if you're in the faith. Examine your self. Don't you know that Christ Jesus is in you unless you fail to meet the test?

00;22;13;24 - 00;22;52;21
Chris
And then if we go to like first John, I think gives us kind of the most succinct answer to what the test is or the tests. So John gives three tests. There's the there's a belief test, there's the obedience test. There's a love test. Do you believe correct doctrine specifically about Christ, You believe that he's God's son, fully, God, fully man who lived a perfect life, died on a cross to pay the penalty of our sins as an atonement.

00;22;52;21 - 00;23;17;01
Chris
Persons make us right with God. And then he rose again three days later so we can have new life in Him. Do you believe that? And that's that's a that's an it's and it's not just a mental belief, but it's. Are you trusting that have you give your life to that truth? So there's belief, then there's obedience. Are you obeying God's commands?

00;23;17;04 - 00;23;43;00
Chris
And again, not perfectly, but is that the the pattern of your, your life? And I yeah, I'm, I can get on my hobbyhorse here, so I'll just keep going. And then there is the love test. Do you have love for God? Do you have love for your brothers and sisters? And that's not your biological brothers and sisters, although it's certainly included in there, but it's specifically talking about for other for other Christians.

00;23;43;00 - 00;24;14;28
Chris
And so that whole first letter of first John's first letter is is about like these tests, because there are a lot of people like how do you how do you know there are a lot of heresies going on. And the early church was battling and they had they surrounded these three things. And so I think we need to ask those about ourself first and then we that's how we should use to examine whether someone else is a believer.

00;24;14;28 - 00;24;43;29
Chris
Now, we should be very careful and we should be gracious and we should not be, you know, like we're not looking for to be heretic inspectors. And I've known those people still know some of them today is were always, you know, maybe at some point in time, points in time. I've been that myself. But I do think that these are the same things as do you do you believe the truth about Jesus?

00;24;43;29 - 00;25;17;02
Chris
And there's you know, Jesus is pretty popular still today, but oftentimes the Jesus that people are believing in is not the Jesus of the Bible, is not the not the real Jesus. And so are you truly believing that he is is is fully God and fully man, and that he you know, I went through this a minute ago, but there's a lot of people believe in Jesus, but don't believe that he's, for example, fully God.

00;25;17;05 - 00;25;41;19
Chris
Are you being obedient? And this is a massive issue. Today's you've got lots of people who basically are cultural Christians and they're and their lives do do not reflect what we see. The life of a believer is described in the New Testament, even in our text this week. And then do you have love? Obviously a love for God, but then a love for for one another.

00;25;41;19 - 00;26;16;00
Chris
And Jesus as in John, You know, people will know you're my disciples if you have a love for one another. And we can fall short in all of these areas. But again, there should be evidence that all three of those things are true. So what's our responsibility? I think you ask. Yeah, Yeah. Well, I think our responsibility is to to again, not to be judgmental or accusatory with people, but to kind of come alongside them and and to try to to speak the truth.

00;26;16;00 - 00;26;49;19
Chris
And in love. And so I think, you know, trying to be be gentle about that, but just saying, hey, I'm concerned and I want to you know, I'm seeing this in your life and that that gives me concern as to, you know, where where you are at. And and sometimes it could be simply because those people, they are at a place where they're struggling in their walk and sometimes it could be because they're not truly a believer.

00;26;49;19 - 00;26;57;18
Chris
And it takes wisdom and discernment and prayer to know really kind of which is which and how to take those conversations that way.

00;26;57;21 - 00;27;19;26
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. I think, you know, there's probably not much more offensive than like the questions somebody's beliefs. I think that can they can upset someone pretty fast and so but at the same time like it's not it's not a small issue at all like if we.

00;27;19;28 - 00;27;20;15
Chris
Paul.

00;27;20;16 - 00;27;46;11
Brenton
Paul is saying anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to him. And so like that, that's a it's a bold claim. And I think that we need to take those things seriously. And so being kind of willing to to do the hard thing and of course, graciously and of course, you know, patiently and in love do these things.

00;27;46;11 - 00;28;13;11
Brenton
But I mean, if we see someone that is is kind of just and I don't know, and thinking about Hebrews like there's there's so many warning passages of like people that that tasted tasted the the goodness of Christianity. But then fell away. And so like I think in some in some regard we need to be vigilant and and be gracious enough to talk to someone.

00;28;13;13 - 00;28;47;00
Chris
Yeah, well, let's just talk for a second about being a peacemaker. So because I see this as a is a pretty big issue today, We we want to be peacemakers, right? I mean, Jesus calls us to be peacemakers, but sometimes in order to to make the peace, you first got to break the peace. And I think so many of us and I can be guilty of this myself as we we don't want to cause conflict.

00;28;47;03 - 00;28;50;04
Chris
We want everybody to get along really good.

00;28;50;04 - 00;28;51;02
Brenton
Peacekeeper.

00;28;51;04 - 00;29;26;07
Chris
Yeah. You, we, we well, yeah, we call it peacekeeping, but the reality is that we're not called to be peacekeepers or called to be a peacemaker. And the only way that people truly experience peace is in a right relationship with God that overflows in the right relationship with other people. And so if we keep the peace. But but that person needs us to actually confront them and break the peace for the sake that they actually may experience peace.

00;29;26;10 - 00;29;56;10
Chris
Yeah, I guess it's certainly for a fault. But peacekeeping, oftentimes this is settling for a false peace, and that's not actually honoring to God or loving to that other person. Now, we got to be careful that we're not intending really peace breaker, like because there is there are people and again, probably all of us can be this way is like we just break, you know, break the peace fully just because we we you know, okay, you know, they need to hear this and all that kind of stuff.

00;29;56;10 - 00;30;24;25
Chris
So there's a there's a right way to do it. There's a wrong way to do it. Yeah. But I think a lot I mean, I hear this. I'm a peacekeeper by nature. And really what that is, is oftentimes is just to be blunt, is in this as an excuse not to say what needs to be said in order to well, when needs to be said, the person needs to hear in order for them to experience true, true peace.

00;30;24;25 - 00;30;33;26
Chris
And we're so afraid of in the moment breaking the peace and not trusting that God will bring it back around. Yeah.

00;30;33;28 - 00;30;53;22
Brenton
Yeah. I think kind of what I'm hearing you say is, no, your tendencies in these. Like if you if you are one to confront, like that's something that is it's enjoyable for you, maybe, maybe slow down a bit and think through it. But I mean encouraging those who who just don't want to break the peace that sometimes it's necessary.

00;30;53;28 - 00;31;19;15
Chris
Yeah, think about it this way. There are peace fakers and peace breakers and we want to be peacemakers. So the peace breakers are the ones who walk in the door and they're just going to say whatever they feel like they should say no. And that without any thought about is this the right time or the right place or the right way to say it, the peace fakers can be, I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to anybody get upset or, you know, everybody.

00;31;19;18 - 00;31;42;19
Chris
I just want everybody get along. Yeah. And neither one of those and I can say this and I'll be done, but everybody has a default setting to being a peace faker or a peace breaker. In me personally, it depends upon what relationship I'm in. I can I can swing the pendulum either way, but none of us are by nature, peacemakers.

00;31;42;21 - 00;31;47;03
Chris
That takes up the whole the work of the Holy Spirit with interesting. Yeah.

00;31;47;05 - 00;32;11;25
Brenton
I think one more thing just to add in here is that if you're actually in that situation, if you're worried about someone, I think the most you can do is, is have that conversation and realize that that that is not your responsibility to save them. It's it's in the spirit's work and so be faithful and what you need to do but don't don't put all the responsibility on yourself.

00;32;11;28 - 00;32;19;23
Brenton
That's cool. All right. Well, thank you, Chris. We'll be back next week. Continuing in Romans eight. So we will talk to you then.