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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Graham. And here again is Chris Carr with me. Welcome.

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Chris
Everybody. So glad you're joining us today.

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Brenton
I want to remind all of you that we're now opening up a portion of the show to attempt to answer your questions about the current sermon series. So again, feel free to send any questions you have our way by email emailing us at ask at further podcast dot com. This email will also be in the episode description below, so check that out.

00;00;50;03 - 00;01;09;17
Brenton
And speaking of that, we're actually going to start with one that we got this week. So Chris, at the end of the service this week, you said that many in the congregation have hardened hearts and are at risk. Are you saying that they are at risk of losing their salvation?

00;01;09;19 - 00;01;42;01
Chris
Yeah. So I'm sorry if I cause some confusion here, and I didn't mean to say many as in like lots and lots. I just believe I'm pretty confident that there are people who are part of our worship services each week who have hard hearts to the gospel. And so they're not believers, they're unbelievers. So they're not at risk of losing their salvation.

00;01;42;01 - 00;02;14;20
Chris
They're simply at risk of not being saved. And so they're currently in rebellion against God. And I just wanted to warn them against the the dangers of that. So I wasn't I wasn't talking to two people who are truly saved. I think we've seen pretty clearly in Romans and you see it all throughout the Scripture that all true believers are going to persevere to the end and they're going to persevere to the end because God's going to preserve them in their salvation.

00;02;14;22 - 00;02;22;19
Chris
And we saw that, of course, most notably at the end of Roman Chapter eight. So I hope that clears up any confusion.

00;02;22;25 - 00;02;51;29
Brenton
Yeah, that's a good clarification. Um, different audience. So yeah, thanks for doing that. So last Sunday you said the only difference between Jacob and this is God's purpose in election showing that salvation comes by grace and not by works. And over the last couple of weeks, I've been reading through Genesis, and it it really is shocking from our perspective that God chose Jacob over his saw.

00;02;52;02 - 00;03;14;19
Brenton
I don't know how many of you guys are actually familiar with the stories, but in a lot of ways Esau comes out looking better than Jacob. In fact, the the only reason Jacob had the birthright from Isaac is because he lied about who he was when he came in to talk to his dad. Ultimately, though, they're equally unworthy of favor from the Lord.

00;03;14;22 - 00;03;39;24
Brenton
And this is a great example of the doctrine that we call unconditional election. The idea that that God's election of us has nothing to do with the choices we make, but it's purely his free will to choose. So, Chris, I know you haven't really used that that term specifically throughout the sermon series, but what are your thoughts on that and unconditional election in general?

00;03;39;27 - 00;04;09;21
Chris
Yeah, I don't have too much to add other than what you've stated there. You said it well, but I do think it's another important point of clarification in that God's choosing of us has nothing to do with anything in us or done by us or about us. And therefore it is unconditional. There's just simply nothing about us that causes God to choose us.

00;04;09;22 - 00;04;39;28
Chris
He just does it in his sovereign will. Deciding that before the foundational world. That's Ephesians one four, he is going to choose to set his love on us, which is that foreknowledge order that we talked about there in Romans chapter eight. But it's really important for us to understand that this this election is is simply on the basis of God's free will and not because of something in us.

00;04;39;28 - 00;04;56;06
Chris
And the reason that that is important is to to to show and to undergird the principle, the truth that we see all throughout Scripture from beginning to end, that salvation is, like you said, at the beginning by grace and not by works.

00;04;56;06 - 00;05;23;10
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, I, I think I would suggest anyone listening to this that hasn't read through Genesis lately. This, it was a really interesting read as going as we go through Romans nine to get the background on that story and see what's actually happening. So I think it just kind of gives you a different perspective on God's work in salvation and also our like lack of work in it.

00;05;23;11 - 00;05;46;07
Brenton
And I think that understanding that that there was there is nothing between those two. Paul even says it was before they were even born, before they had done anything, that God chose Jacob. And so apply that to us. And I think that should give us nothing but humility as as people that are saved by by God.

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Chris
Yeah, well, I think it's really interesting and I think it's a great encouragement to go and read Genesis. And even if you just begin in in Genesis basically chapter 12 with God's calling of Abraham and Abraham before God calls them, he He is a pagan, He's worshiping the moon God, He's certainly never that's what the people there worship.

00;06;11;11 - 00;06;34;13
Chris
So there's no reason to think that he wasn't doing what everybody else was doing. He got just somewhat out of the blue, at least from our perspective, just says, Hey, I'm choosing you. And yeah, Abraham had to believe God. But of course, we go to Genesis 15, a key passage that we've studied in in Romans in our study of Romans is Abraham believe God.

00;06;34;13 - 00;06;56;08
Chris
And it was credited to him as righteousness. So he was of righteous based upon his faith. But that faith only came in response to God first, revealing himself and choosing him. And then you go from Abraham and then there's, you know, you go to to Isaac. Well, if you look at Isaac, you know, there's not a whole lot of great things to be recommended.

00;06;56;08 - 00;07;15;22
Chris
And Isaac, he doesn't get a whole lot of press, but he's not a great dad. We know that for sure. And then you go to Jacob in Esau, and then you just even go to Jacob's 12 Sons. They're all a mess, you know, like, yeah, Joseph gets into the press, but Joseph was was not, you know, when he first shows up.

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Chris
Sure. He he's, you know, not a great guy either. And it's just is one after another. And we just see this over and over and over again all throughout the Old Testament is like they're we really look at and understand the scripture. There really are There's only one, I should say, hero in the Bible, and that's Jesus. And that's that's the point really, of the Old Testament, is to show us that we need we need a savior.

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Chris
We need an alien righteousness, something that's outside of us, someone from another world to come and save us.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah, you're right. From from chapter 12 on through Genesis, it is really just an incredibly dysfunctional family that that God just keeps being gracious to you. And that's that's the story of Abraham's family.

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Chris
Not to mention, you get in the book of judges and you don't, you know, don't let your kids read the book of judges until they're at least teenagers. I mean, it's it's yeah, it's very pretty. There's a lot of debauchery. And and the people of Israel would have basically just completely unraveled. And in many ways they did until God stepped in yet again through judges time and time again.

00;08;28;20 - 00;08;31;20
Chris
And then eventually Samuel and Saul and then David.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;08;34;29 - 00;09;02;18
Brenton
One thing I'm struck by in this passage that we went through on Sunday is how Paul responds to to the objection. I think when, when people respond to this argument or others like it, I think they often want to appeal to, you know, our own standards of justice and fairness, kind of based off of, you know, America or even a lot of times can come from like a secular worldview.

00;09;02;20 - 00;09;28;16
Brenton
We sometimes try to defend God's character from public opinion. And what I find interesting here is that Paul doesn't even attempt to do that when when he's asked if there's injustice or unrighteousness in God, his answer is essentially like, no way, it's God. He's he. He's not unjust. And and we're going to see a very similar argument from him next week.

00;09;28;18 - 00;09;37;00
Brenton
But my question is, why do we as Christians feel like we need to defend God against our society's standards?

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Chris
Yeah, that's a great question. I think because we feel peer pressure. I think because we are people pleasers. I think because our, you know, culture can can make us feel like an outsider, which in some ways we are and we should feel like that way. But I think we can also make it feel like we're stupid, we're foolish in those things.

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Chris
And so, you know, we can somewhat be embarrassed by the things that the Bible teaches. We can be ashamed. Small talks about. He's not ashamed of the gospel knowledge. After one. And so I, I feel like I think sometimes we just feel like, you know, we're on the defensive. And so we operate out of out of a mode of defense rather than I think probably what we ought to a lot of times is offense not to be offensive, but I think what Paul is going on in this passage is he's he's been on the offense.

00;10;46;04 - 00;11;13;11
Chris
Now, I will say this, though, I do think that we need to to look at how we can understand the objections to Christianity and to the Bible and and to understand what those objects are and to seek to answer those. I mean, you see Paul doing that like an act 17. He's in Athens. And, you know, he's he's quoting some of the secular poets.

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Chris
He's saying, hey, I see you've got this, you know, what is it, a temple to an unknown God. And and so I do think he he he's understanding the objections there, and he's he's speaking in those terms. So I think there is a place to do that. But we've got to be careful that we're not judging, like you said, we're not judging God in the Bible by the standards of our society or cultural norms or what they value.

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Chris
Mm hmm.

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Brenton
Yeah, it's I think it's an easy way to. Why would you go down that road of kind of people pleasing? It's really easy to capitulate on important things when you know it doesn't fit with with what the norm is today. But how what would you suggest of how do we how do we become comfortable defending the biblical worldview with the biblical worldview instead of adopting the world?

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Chris
Well, I think it begins where we have to be confident in the inspiration and in air and sea of God's word. You know, that we really, truly believe that that is the case and probably also are able to explain why we believe that that is the case. Now, we may not need to explain that to unbelievers. They may not accept it or agree with it, but we at least need to have that as a foundation because really all apologetics rests upon whether or not the word of God is the word of God.

00;13;03;10 - 00;13;37;17
Chris
And if it is the word of God, is it is it an errant? And can everything that we read be believed and be trusted? And so I think a lot of times we we don't maybe have as much confidence in God's word as we need to. And so, you know, I think it was SPURGEON that said, you know, he was asked question how do you defend the Bible?

00;13;37;17 - 00;14;13;26
Chris
And he's he said, well, you defend the Bible the way you defend the lion. You just let him out of this cage. And I think that's a little bit of the mentality that we need to have. We like it like we're going to defend, we're defending. And I to let's just let's just say with what God's word has to say, if we do believe it is his word and we do believe it's it is infallible and it's it is the truth, then and then we also believe that the Holy Spirit has the ability to take that truth and to change and transform hearts and minds.

00;14;13;28 - 00;14;29;20
Chris
Then let's confidently speak the truth of that word and not feel like we've got to be embarrassed by that or to to operate under the the things that culture says. Yeah, we have to.

00;14;29;22 - 00;14;59;11
Brenton
Yeah, that's a really good it's good advice. And I think that as we go through, you know Romans nine where it's it is tough for for people and and I think some some people's you know responses to shrink back and I think there's there's probably two groups of people that disagree with our interpretation. There are some that just like actually have an exegetical problem with it and would like argue that.

00;14;59;11 - 00;15;20;27
Brenton
But I think there's another group that maybe doesn't have that argument, but just really doesn't like that this stuff is true. And I think you know that they can cause problems. I think we don't want to be in the place where we're we're judging God's word by our 21st century standards.

00;15;20;29 - 00;15;47;00
Chris
Yeah. Let me give a little clarification here. I just want everybody to understand that I don't think we have to actually like what it says as much as we just simply need to accept what it says at times. You know, the passage we're getting ready to study is is you know, there's some things is like I kind of wish it didn't say what it says.

00;15;47;06 - 00;16;10;12
Chris
Now I'm I when I when I feel that way, I have a choice. Am I going to accept that this is God's word and that it's my heart and mind that have to get in line with a word? Or am I going to try to make the word getting heart in line with with it? Get in line with with my heart.

00;16;10;15 - 00;16;44;03
Chris
And I'm not I just want to know is like I don't want us to think that like, we have to be like, oh, yeah, I absolutely love what I think that this is saying here or even what it is saying here that at least doesn't need to be our natural necessarily gut reaction. And so what we do need to accept is like and Paul's going to say this, you know, this this coming week, who are you?

00;16;44;03 - 00;17;04;12
Chris
A man to answer back to God, We need I guess what I'm getting at here is we need to come at this with humility and let's let God be God. Yeah. And to be able to trust that that even when we something maybe I've put it this way, I think maybe it's sort of like liking it, like it makes us uncomfortable.

00;17;04;12 - 00;17;05;27
Chris
That's maybe a better way to phrase it.

00;17;06;03 - 00;17;06;17
Brenton
Yeah.

00;17;06;20 - 00;17;41;19
Chris
And I would say that in some ways I'm going in a lot different directions here, but I think in some ways what really should make us uncomfortable, I think there's an uncomfortability about it and and quite because quite honestly, I've known people who have been to who interpret the passage the way that I interpret the passage. You interpret it with some type of glee over and over this and I think if you can have glee over the fact that people are going to spend eternity separated from God in hell, that you have another type of problem.

00;17;41;22 - 00;17;59;29
Chris
I mean, and that should be as concerning to us as those who maybe disagree with our interpretation or who really struggle with what is what is being said in that. So anyway, I've said a lot there, what's going on around your head?

00;18;00;03 - 00;18;31;12
Brenton
It's a good question. Now, I think I think that I understand where you're coming from. I, I think yeah, if we're, if we're celebrating the, you know, reformation of, of people, that's maybe not a great place to be in that we should we should mourn that. But I think at the same time, we need we should be able to appreciate these attributes of God in the way that he's worked out the story of redemption.

00;18;31;12 - 00;19;03;04
Brenton
And even when we get into, you know, things like this that are more more like the granular view of how he does it, I think that ultimately that that should still lead us to worship how God has has done these things. And so I think we can find like joy in in his grace to us. And yet he's still getting the justice that he deserves.

00;19;03;04 - 00;19;13;29
Brenton
Like I think we could we could still find joy in that. While I agree that, like, we're not celebrating the the demise of people for sure. Yeah. So I understand that.

00;19;14;00 - 00;19;41;29
Chris
Yeah it's a good, good reminder like where we we want to at least end up when we're done Romans nine through 11 and some worship. Yeah, that's where we're supposed to worship. And if we understand it correctly, I think that that's where we will understand. I just want to emphasize for people that there might be some uncomfortable illness and some struggle along the way, and that's okay.

00;19;42;01 - 00;19;56;16
Chris
Okay. Yeah. And I don't think that being uncomfortable or struggling with what scripture says is mutually exclusive from also being able to worship at the same time.

00;19;56;22 - 00;20;21;25
Brenton
Mm hmm. Well, I like what you said earlier about how art our heart needs to be postured to, like, God align align my heart with yours like that. That's how we need to approach, you know, all of scripture or when we find things uncomfortable that we need to we need to be praying that, you know, we would we would come to accept those things and rejoice in them.

00;20;21;28 - 00;20;51;11
Chris
So, yeah, and I think it does as we saw this last week in in verse 14, and I think we'll see again in verse 19 is like, are we going to come at this perspective like where God's on trial or are our understanding. Yeah, is on trial. And, and I think that that's that makes a whole, whole lot of difference in this whole discussion.

00;20;51;11 - 00;21;17;22
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Good. You said on Sunday God didn't create the hardness in Pharaoh. He's simply allowed Pharaoh to continue in his hardness. And I want to dig into this a little, and then we can kind of clarify where we're coming from. But are you saying that God's hardening of individuals is passive? Like is the only thing he's doing is choosing not to give them grace.

00;21;17;22 - 00;21;28;29
Chris
And so are you listeners here. Let me tell you what's going on here. Brennan's putting the screws to me right now. Just that's kind of what's going on. This question. I'm got to.

00;21;28;29 - 00;21;29;16
Brenton
Do it every once.

00;21;29;16 - 00;22;02;27
Chris
In a while. Yeah, it's a good question. And I think in retrospect, in trying to be clear about an objection that that I know that people have to the text that we were studying, I was at pains to to clarify something and maybe in doing so muddy the water in another way. So I do believe that God didn't create the hardness and fear of the hardness was already there.

00;22;03;00 - 00;22;52;02
Chris
I think that that's pretty, pretty abundantly clear. And, you know, from what we've seen earlier and in Romans, we know that people are by nature hard to the things of God. And and so I was trying to make that really, really clear. Now, at the same time, I do think that Exodus tells us and Paul is bringing out that God not only simply allowed Pharaoh to to be hard, but that he he also in some ways prevented that hardness from from becoming soft.

00;22;52;02 - 00;23;18;10
Chris
In other words, and maybe we could even say that he hardened him even more so that he would refuse even I mean, like if you just think about this is is how hard is a guy have to be after, you know, nine plagues. Okay. Where God is repeatedly showed hey, like I am more powerful than all your gods by a long shot.

00;23;18;12 - 00;23;47;23
Chris
And now I'm going to I'm going to come in and and all the firstborn males are. That's that's the next judgment you got. Still doesn't repent. And then even after that happens in Pharaoh, you know, okay, you can go now, finally. And go. Then he still comes after them. Yeah, right. And I. I don't know if we can explain all of that simply by human hardness.

00;23;47;23 - 00;24;11;26
Chris
It seems like that there is is something else at work there. And and it does seem I mean, that's just that's one example we can go to, you know, place like, you know Genesis 50 where you know Joseph now with his brothers he says, you know what you meant for evil, God meant for good. The saving in many lives.

00;24;11;28 - 00;24;40;17
Chris
And then that chapter four passage where, you know, Peter's preaching and he's just saying, you know, God decreed all this beforehand and that people were going to end. Now you guys basically we're going to have hard hearts and that he's going to use those hard hearts to bring about the death of his son in the Salvation of the world.

00;24;40;23 - 00;24;45;23
Chris
So, yeah, So does that clarify things? And my father off the hot seat. Yeah.

00;24;45;25 - 00;25;11;15
Brenton
That's helpful. No, you know, actually, when you guys are done finishing up Genesis, I'm going to suggest you go on into Exodus and read this story to you, because it really is. It's an interesting reread, the same as Genesis is while we go through Romans nine. Because, I mean, God goes to a lot of lengths to make sure that Israel doesn't get out before he wants them out.

00;25;11;18 - 00;25;35;26
Brenton
Sure. Like it is. It's very planned. This this if you take from God's perspective, this could have been done immediately. I mean, he's given Moses all these signs to go. And, you know, people are always well, I believe if I if I had the evidence in front of me Pharaoh, didn't he? He was he was resistant to every single one of them.

00;25;35;26 - 00;26;03;20
Brenton
And it, it took the death of, of every firstborn to, to finally let them go. And like you said, he still chases after he dies in the Nile. And so one more when we're verse that I'll pull out from Exodus is God is is speaking and he's saying but for this purpose I have raised you up to show you my power so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.

00;26;03;20 - 00;26;16;16
Brenton
And he's he's talking about the the rise of Pharaoh. And he did that all on purpose to fulfill his purposes of of what? So that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. Yeah.

00;26;16;18 - 00;26;39;18
Chris
Yeah. Well, and so you just read 916 which exists 916 which quotes here in Romans nine but the verse before God says to Moses or to Pharaoh, for by now I could have put my out my hand, instruct you and your people the pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. He says, I could have been wiped out a long time ago, but I didn't.

00;26;39;21 - 00;27;02;27
Chris
And instead I've heart hardened you, and I've done so because I'm going to bring glory to myself. And that's I've stressed this and you know, those things like keep reminding us. We got to keep in mind as we go throughout this, is that this this is the story of the Bible and the world is the story of his glory.

00;27;02;29 - 00;27;30;23
Chris
And so God and really the point that Paul's making and in Romans 914 through 18, is that God is free to do what he wants and showing mercy and hardening. And he's he's free to do that because it magnifies his glory, which is the most just the most right thing in the universe.

00;27;30;26 - 00;28;01;21
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. And I wanted to come back to what you said originally when we were talking here was that God didn't have to in the first place, put that hardness in Pharaoh. And I think that that, you know, that that exists in every single one of us. And so it's not that necessarily God needs to even harden everybody's heart if, like the people that aren't elect, we're doing that ourselves.

00;28;01;23 - 00;28;12;19
Brenton
Those people, you know, the people that that aren't elect or whatever they're doing that themselves and they don't need any help from God to to have a hard heart.

00;28;12;21 - 00;28;38;07
Chris
Well, we we can't say this enough. And it really gets back to what you were talking about, about judging. You know, in some ways the Bible and God by kind of human or cultural standards, there's this this idea that people are inherently good. Yeah. And so if we bring that, except for maybe a few notable people, right? Sure.

00;28;38;08 - 00;29;02;09
Chris
But but people are inherently good. And if we take that cultural view and we bring it into this discussion and that's the starting point, then we're going to have a really, really hard time with this idea of hardening with a guy of judgment, with the idea that God allows people to choose hell. And I said that very specifically in that way.

00;29;02;11 - 00;29;27;10
Chris
We'll get back to that next week. But if we come at it from the fact that people aren't inherently good, that we're inherently evil and wicked and rebellious and again, this is Roman isn't Romans one through three and we started that then it's it's it it is should be a wonder to us not that God saves only some people, but that God saves anybody.

00;29;27;12 - 00;29;35;09
Chris
And that's where the worship begins. And I think it's where all of this in Romans nine begins to fall into place.

00;29;35;15 - 00;29;59;11
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's one of the more the most compelling arguments you made on Sunday was that, you know, we don't we don't want fair. We don't fair is fair. The death of a of us all. And so when we think of, like unconditional action as being unfair, that is it is unfair that that God would elect any of us.

00;29;59;11 - 00;30;06;19
Brenton
And so yeah, yeah, it's good. I have a bit of a philosophical question for you.

00;30;06;21 - 00;30;09;10
Chris
Came and I think.

00;30;09;13 - 00;30;29;04
Brenton
If I understand any of this, I think that this is important when when we're discussing God's actions and whether they're good or not. All right. Is God good? Because he does good things or are the things that God does good because God does them?

00;30;29;06 - 00;30;40;13
Chris
I'm not sure I'm smart enough to answer this question. I'm not really a philosopher thinks that I'll I'll take a stab at it and then you can tell me how wrong I am.

00;30;40;13 - 00;31;08;13
Brenton
Well, here, here, let's let's give a little like why I'm asking you actually asking this. So as we as we look at like Romans nine, Paul is is responding to an accusation that God is not good. Right. So he's he's kind of foreseeing these these accusations that, you know, he's probably heard a hundred times before. But this one is is there injustice in God or is there unrighteousness in God?

00;31;08;13 - 00;31;13;26
Brenton
And so is it possible for God to be unjust or unrighteous?

00;31;14;03 - 00;31;29;16
Chris
Yeah. So first, we all point out that this is what's known as youth Nephros dilemma. Apparently, that's from Plato's Socratic dialog as you.

00;31;29;18 - 00;31;32;00
Brenton
Found Wikipedia.

00;31;32;03 - 00;32;15;27
Chris
Youth Afro. No, I know this, but the ether fro is a character in Plato's Socratic dialog. But that's where the this question or dilemma comes from. I would begin by saying that if God is unjust or if God were to be unjust, than the universe would fall apart. So if there's no standard of justice and if God, the being behind everything is is unjust, then there's just no possibility that we're just not in utter chaos all the time.

00;32;15;27 - 00;32;51;07
Chris
And if but frankly, I think that the universe would literally unravel. And so I think that's one answer to that. But I think that this is another example of where it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's really is both. If we are willing to affirm that God is both sovereign and and good, that since God is good, if we if we can accept that, then then his nature itself can serve as the standard of goodness.

00;32;51;09 - 00;33;23;12
Chris
And then God can also decree things to be good on the basis of his nature. And so if we affirm that God is both sovereign and good and this is another reason why the sovereignty of God is so important as if God is not sovereign, then how can he actually declare something to be true? And of course, if he's not good, then there's no standard for goodness.

00;33;23;12 - 00;33;41;08
Chris
So how do we even know what good is? There has to be a standard of goodness, and the only standard of that goodness can be a good ultimately can be a good sovereign God. So I don't know if that is at least a decent answer.

00;33;41;09 - 00;34;00;19
Brenton
I don't either. But it was good. I think that that's kind of the point, is that there is no other standard by which we can judge God. God is the only standard. Sure. Right. And so for for that question to even be asked, I think is is a faulty premise, Right?

00;34;00;21 - 00;34;16;24
Chris
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's like you get back to the Justice argument. We all have an internal sense of right or wrong, even if you're, you know, moral compass is different than mine you. You have one. Yeah. Well, where does that come from?

00;34;16;27 - 00;34;17;27
Brenton
Right?

00;34;18;00 - 00;34;45;25
Chris
And everybody has that. Every everybody who's ever lived has some standard of right or wrong. And and so that has to come has to come from somewhere, right? And it comes from, I believe, a God who is who is just and who is his good. And in those two things, link linked together. Right. I mean to be just is to be good and to be good is to be just.

00;34;45;28 - 00;35;06;11
Brenton
Yeah, good. Okay. You mentioned that one argument against this view of salvation that you were presenting on Sunday is that it is essentially fatalism or determinism. What are these words mean and how does your view differ from them?

00;35;06;13 - 00;35;41;04
Chris
Yeah, I mean, fatalism would basically mean that our choices do not matter. We don't have a real meaningful choice and what happens to us is going to happen to us. And even the choices we make are, you know, are determined for us and we're basically automatons or we're robots. And so, you know, it doesn't matter what I do or don't do, because that was predetermined totally for me.

00;35;41;04 - 00;36;06;28
Chris
And I, I just don't believe that is the case very simply because of what the scripture says. And by the way, it is that this is one accusation that people were making. Paul Heard. And we know that this was the accusation that Paul for her, because in verse 19 is going to say, you know, what are you going to say then that who can resist his will?

00;36;07;06 - 00;36;42;28
Chris
In other words, how can God blame us if he has mercy on him? He has mercy and and he hardens whom he hardens? Like, you know, this simply means, again, that we're you know, we're just dealt a fate. And that's what it is. And and Paul's going to answer that question and in a surprising way. But really, my answer goes back to what I've emphasized and in the last two weeks, very hopefully strenuously I meant to, is that we do have a real we have a real choice.

00;36;43;00 - 00;37;13;27
Chris
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. John 316 who whoever believes will have eternal life. We see this over and over again. And so we are presented in Scripture time and time again that our choices matter or choices matter. And I don't think that that precludes the fact that God is sovereign over our choices, that God can be sovereign and and work in such a way that our choices are real choices.

00;37;13;29 - 00;37;15;19
Chris
And we'll talk more about that, too.

00;37;15;20 - 00;37;51;18
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's helpful, I think. Yeah, that's a that's a common argument. And I think just experience tells us otherwise, right? Like we our experience shows us that we do have choices. We have we, we make decisions based on our desires. And so I think that that's that's an important thing to realize. And I think that to just say that we have just because we don't have autonomous free will means that we don't have any.

00;37;51;18 - 00;37;52;13
Brenton
Well.

00;37;52;16 - 00;37;53;15
Chris
Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;37;53;18 - 00;37;55;24
Brenton
There's not. That doesn't follow.

00;37;55;26 - 00;38;26;26
Chris
No, no, not at all. And I think that you just read acts. Okay? And you can see the apostles and Paul in particular who, you know, he's the one who wrote Romans nine. Obviously, he's he's out there and he's pleading with people to be saved and he's calling on people to repent and turn from their sins over and over and over again.

00;38;26;26 - 00;38;53;17
Chris
And so Paul at least acted like he believed people had a real meaningful choice. And I I think I think that what Paul tells us here in Rome isn't actually it empowers our evangelism. You know, again, one of the accusation is, is why, you know, why should we go out and share the gospel if you know God's going to have mercy on him, He has mercy and he's going to hide who we are and he's going to do what he wants to do.

00;38;53;17 - 00;39;00;06
Chris
So why do we need to go out? And that's just very clearly not the way that the apostles viewed it, you know, so well.

00;39;00;06 - 00;39;13;04
Brenton
And in on like there are groups of people that believe that that would actually agree with that statement and will not evangelize because, yeah, you're going to be either going to be saved or you're not and it's not right. Yes.

00;39;13;06 - 00;39;20;21
Chris
Yeah. And I you know, we're going a bit further than we planned here, but maybe.

00;39;20;28 - 00;39;21;26
Brenton
That's the name of the show, if.

00;39;21;26 - 00;40;06;14
Chris
You will. Yeah. And you can maybe feel free to cut this, but I really believe the way that I am. I'm trying to to expose this text empowers our evangelism. And let me explain. What I mean is that if we really do believe that people are dead in their trespasses and sins, as Ephesians two, that the the only hope that we have is if God is going to choose us and send this Holy Spirit into our hearts in order to make us alive and give us the ability to place our faith in Christ.

00;40;06;19 - 00;40;37;17
Chris
Yeah, but the great thing about it is, is because God has chosen people for salvation. That means that I can know that when I go share the gospel, there's a real possibility that those people are going to believe if God doesn't choose people for salvation and they are dead in their sins, then nobody's going to be saved. And then then there really is no reason to go out and evangelize because a dead person can do nothing.

00;40;37;17 - 00;41;01;22
Chris
And so if God's not going to choose to, you know, wake them up and give them the ability to be able to believe, you know, what's the then then there is the place where we come to that. What's the what's the point in doing that? But that's where, again, it ties back into this whole issue of total inability.

00;41;01;25 - 00;41;18;06
Brenton
Yeah, it's kind of realizing how much we're actually talking about that doctrine. It so many things come back to it. Yeah, it's it's so important that we understand the anthropology that the Bible gives us because it really affects so many practical things for us.

00;41;18;08 - 00;41;49;20
Chris
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, a lot of this discussion can be traced back to what we believe about mankind. You mentioned the word anthropology, and that really is sounds like a big word, theological word, but it's a really, really important doctrine and how you view that, you know, which fork in the road you take in that will depend or determine a lot about how you come out on these other things that we've been talking about.

00;41;49;22 - 00;42;08;08
Brenton
Which is why Paul starts where he does and. ROMANS And that's what Romans 18133 is about. Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, Chris, I appreciate it. And hey, guys, keep sending questions in. We know there's we know there's questions because there's always questions about Romans nine, so feel free to send them in. We'd love to answer.

00;42;08;10 - 00;42;09;10
Chris
Yep. Thanks, everybody.

00;42;09;17 - 00;42;10;07
Brenton
We'll talk to you next week.