00;00;02;15 - 00;00;26;23
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Well, welcome back to Further than Brant and Grim. Today I'm here with Chris Carr to talk about his sermon from Luke two. How are you doing today?

00;00;26;25 - 00;00;34;08
Chris
Pretty good. Recovering after being sick last week, but thankfully I made it through and doing a lot better now.

00;00;34;08 - 00;00;35;29
Brenton
I didn't even know you were sick. Good job.

00;00;35;29 - 00;00;40;22
Chris
Yeah, I try to kind of keep that quiet most of the time.

00;00;40;24 - 00;01;14;23
Brenton
So you went over, the second Carol of the series, which is Hark the Herald Angels sing. which you kind of tied back to Luke two. And that, that interaction between, you know, the, the angels and the shepherds. And so what I kind of want to do today is talk about a subject that I rarely want to talk about, because this Carol, brings up, you know, a topic that is hardly discussed in any depth.

00;01;14;23 - 00;01;39;03
Brenton
And a lot of times it's it's mixed in with cultural stories to the point where many of us don't really know what to believe about it. I'm talking about angel ology, which is the study of angels. And I'll admit that this isn't a topic that I've done a ton of study on. In fact, for me, this is one of those areas that I tend to shy away from.

00;01;39;06 - 00;02;04;07
Brenton
I think that partly the reason for that is because there are a lot of references and stories about angels. There doesn't seem to be a lot of clear teaching on the subject in Scripture. And it's not to say that there is none, but I hope to get into some of those today. But I'd like to start by asking you what what can we know about Angels from Scripture?

00;02;04;09 - 00;02;30;10
Chris
Sure. Well, the first thing I want to say is I think there's more teaching in Scripture than we might be aware of. Sure. I think there's not a lot. And to be honest, what we do have is often mysterious and sometimes even strange. But I think there probably is more than than most of us would realize. So I'll run through some things here and maybe we'll dive into a little bit deeper a thing or two.

00;02;30;10 - 00;03;01;08
Chris
But it's more for us to to know angels are created, beings and they're created like we are creatures. They are creatures. They're also personal, which means they have personality. Like we have personality, or where they're different from us is that they are entirely spirit beings. They do not have physical bodies, although they can appear in bodily form, which is one of those things that can make it a little bit strange, mysterious.

00;03;01;11 - 00;03;33;06
Chris
But there are there are times in the Bible where we see angels appearing as men. There's an example of angels. There are three men who are apparently angels appearing to Abraham in Genesis chapter 18. We know that an angel appears to a Elijah when he's running from Jezebel. And then we have the passage in Hebrews 13, where we're told that we should not avoid entertaining strangers taking care of strangers.

00;03;33;07 - 00;03;45;20
Chris
Because in doing so, sometimes we are actually entertaining angels unawares. And one of your favorite bands, Newsboys, actually has a song. Absolutely called Entertaining the Angels.

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Brenton
Sounds right. Yeah.

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Chris
I think I'm joking about it being one of your favorite bands, but.

00;03;50;07 - 00;03;52;09
Brenton
In a way.

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Chris
But which makes it interesting to think that that would be possibly the case. The point is, is that we're supposed to be hospitable, and yet in that we are told that perhaps there are times where we actually do interact with angels being unaware of it. The point being here is that angels are spirit beings, but sometimes they can take on a bodily form.

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Chris
I think it's obvious from what we see in the Bible they have great power and they're intelligent, have wisdom. But we need to remember that they are limited in both. They don't have an unlimited power. They're not omnipotent as God is. They don't marry or reproduce and they don't die. And so we find that from a statement or statements by Jesus in the Gospels.

00;04;40;28 - 00;05;14;19
Chris
Mark 12 Matthew 22 Luke 20 And they're actually on a higher order than mankind. And yet what's interesting is, is that they're not created in the image of God and cannot be redeemed. So they're higher order and in the sense of maybe in glorious ness, power, perhaps even in wisdom. But so they've got this beat, so to speak, in those ways.

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Chris
But what they what they don't have is a beat in is the fact that they're not made in the image of God as we are and they are without their possibility of redemption. And so when the Satan and the other angels fell, they fell for good. And there was no possibility that they could actually be saved. And so even as I talked about on Sunday, Jesus didn't come to save the angels.

00;05;37;02 - 00;06;08;06
Chris
He came to save us, which means obviously, we have a special place in the heart of heart of God compared to them. We also know that not all angels are the same, nor are they equal in rank. There are different types of angels, and one group I think something is really interesting is there's this. I don't even know how I want to describe it, but there are angels, or at least there's one archangel in the Bible.

00;06;08;08 - 00;06;37;22
Chris
We know his name is Michael. We see him in the Book of Daniel and he seems to be like the the most powerful angel. And he's actually we see in Revelation 12 that he's the one that actually kicks Satan out of heaven. Really interesting passage there. There's a war in heaven. And and Michael is booting Satan out of and other demons out of heaven.

00;06;37;23 - 00;07;02;07
Chris
So there's a lot we can talk about. Why are the demons in heaven and all of the evil probably won't get into that right now. But something would be important just from classification. They're un fallen angels and there are fallen angels. So obviously the fallen angels are the ones that have remained faithful and loyal to God and they serve God in a variety of ways.

00;07;02;15 - 00;07;27;12
Chris
We've talked about some of these on Sunday. They worship him. They speak on his behalf. They do battle with fallen angels. There's the passage I was referring to earlier in Daniel, where it talks about there was an angel that was coming to give. So let me put it this way. Daniel was praying and for three weeks he didn't get an answer to his prayer.

00;07;27;12 - 00;07;54;13
Chris
And then an angel shows up and he says, Hey, I've been detained and ringing the answer to your prayer by the Prince of Persia, which would be what seemed to be the demon who ruled and had authority over Persia where Daniel was residing. He'd been taken into exile. But then the angel says, But then the the Archangel Michael came and helped me defeat the Prince of Persia, another demon.

00;07;54;15 - 00;08;23;03
Chris
And so I was able to come to you. So we see this battle going on between un fallen and fallen angels. And fallen angels also they are given specific tasks to carry out here on earth. They carry out God's judgments on unredeemed humanity and even on fallen angels. And so I probably should also add that angels were very active in Jesus's ministry, as we saw on Sunday, announced his birth.

00;08;23;05 - 00;08;41;07
Chris
They minister to him during his temptation. They strengthen him in the guest ceremony. They announced his resurrection. They were in attendance at his ascension, and we know that they're going to accompany his return. So there's actually maybe in the picture here, there's there's more in the Bible about angels, and they have a bigger role maybe than we think that we have.

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Chris
And then I just will emphasize again, it may be the most important thing for us to get is the angels have a very active role in the life of believers. They, as we saw Hebrews 114, they're sent out by God to serve those who are inheriting salvation, and they do so by providing physical protection and provision. We see there's a passage where Paul is actually ministered to by an angel while he's in prison.

00;09;09;06 - 00;09;36;00
Chris
He says that I was encouraged by the Angel of the Lord. They give direction, they assist in answering prayers and all kinds of things like that. So then we'll talk real quick about Fallen Angels. Obviously, those are the angels who are now demons, including obviously Satan, but those who rebelled against God with him and they continue to actively oppose his his rule.

00;09;36;02 - 00;10;06;12
Chris
They do things like inflicting disease. They influence people to continue to rebel against God. They are deceivers, they can possess people and demons are possession and oppression. We see both of those in Scripture, and yet we need to always keep in mind that they're restrained by God and in the extent of their power and the influence they exert.

00;10;06;12 - 00;10;55;15
Chris
And so we can talk more. Then, of course, of the chief fallen angel would be Satan. And everything we just mentioned about fallen angels is obviously characteristic of him as well. And I think the maybe the big thing we should take that I would really want us to take from all of this is that there is this invisible spiritual world going on all around us and it behooves us not to not to fail to recognize that that is the case and to be aware of that and that there is a battle going on literally for our hearts and minds and then also for the souls of people who have yet to be redeemed.

00;10;55;17 - 00;11;18;00
Chris
And even though we can't see it, I would suggest that we can actually see the effects of this battle going on if we really pay attention to what's happening in the world. And many of the events that and the things that we see if we really think about it, cannot simply be attributed to the fact that people are sinful and falling.

00;11;18;00 - 00;11;51;24
Chris
Yes, certainly that is a big part of it. But if you look at just use, for example, because it's really, really easy. What's going on? What happened on October the seventh and the way that Hamas attacked Israel and the things that they did to women, children and and older people and just the evil and wickedness, I don't know that that can simply be attributed to the fact that they're sinful human beings.

00;11;51;26 - 00;12;19;10
Chris
Certainly, again, that contributed to it. But you think that things like that you can take obviously, the Holocaust is an easy example here. You can look at things like sex trafficking and if we really are willing to and a lot of times we're not willing to look at how how great the evil and the wicked is in our world, we can't, I think, walk away from it and say, that's just human beings being human beings.

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Chris
I think it really speaks to there's a greater evil behind the great evil in our world.

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Brenton
That's a big list. Yeah, you're you're right. When laying all that out of the what scripture has said about angels, it's it's more than I would have thought of. Top of my head. Yeah. So I think that's helpful. It's not something that the Bible is silent on. Apparently.

00;12;50;03 - 00;13;19;19
Chris
Yeah. I mean, we could talk probably at length about these things. I think for now I just wanted to run through it, maybe give us the idea that there's a lot more there than we might think about or think that there actually is. And it probably would do us well to consider this more to study it more. And I think like for me, the thing again that is that I chiefly take from it is like there is there is spiritual warfare going on.

00;13;19;19 - 00;13;45;22
Chris
You know, we're all familiar with that passage in Ephesians chapter six. But I think sometimes we forget is like Paul says, our battles not against flesh and blood, it's against the principalities and the rulers in the heavenly places. And so it's our battle and our fight in this world is ultimately not against other human beings, but it's it's against fallen angels.

00;13;45;25 - 00;13;47;01
Chris
So.

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Brenton
Yeah, I think that maybe part of my hesitation in this is, is that when you talk about the the the line of spiritual warfare versus what is what we are responsible for or what our sinful nature is responsible for, I'm I'm typically more on the side of well, that's like we don't need any help sinning in these areas.

00;14;15;28 - 00;14;45;00
Brenton
And so I probably fall on that side more often. I, I find that I typically think that the work of Satan is over applied like we, we kind of blame Satan for things that seem to me to be very coincidental or just, you know, human sin. And so that's kind of my my tendency and maybe I'm wrong in in some of that.

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Chris
I don't think that you're wrong because I think there's a legitimate concern is like the devil made me do it kind of attitude. And I don't think in any way what the Bible tells us about angels should take humanity off the hook at all. Or like we shouldn't recognize that we're reaching for response. Well, for the way that the world is, I think what's you know, for me, I think what this should inspire us to do is to pray more and to recognize that we also can't say, well, that's human beings being human beings and and just kind of the way that it is.

00;15;25;12 - 00;15;44;10
Chris
And we fix human beings. You know, this problem will get fixed. And to recognize that there are spiritual forces and power behind the evil that we see in this world and even behind her in the evil in our own heart. Like we the Bible's really clear that we are tempt the devil tempts us like this legit big man.

00;15;44;12 - 00;16;07;11
Chris
And we we can forget that. And to recognize that we need to have strategies for fight, you know, resist the devil and he will flee from you. Be on your guard because the devil is like a roaring lion prowling about, looking for someone to devour. When God, God always provide protection of what God always providing. When attentive, there's always, in a way, an escape.

00;16;07;11 - 00;16;32;22
Chris
But we need to know what that a way of escape is. And then we need to take that way of escape. But then also, you know, go to that Ephesians six passage. How how do we actually fight this battle? We do so through the Word of God and through prayer. And so what the Bible teaches us about unveiling angels in particular, and a lot of times, you know, it teaches about I'm Fallen Angels is in the context of we're fallen angels, they go hand-in-hand.

00;16;32;24 - 00;16;40;26
Chris
And that like we need to be in the world. We need to be we need to be praying, because that is that's how we find victory.

00;16;40;28 - 00;16;59;17
Brenton
Yeah, well, that's certainly a useful application out of all of this, I think. I think and maybe maybe another part of my my tendency here is that I don't think it's the most like realistic thing to think that you know, Satan is just running around and causing mischief. Right. Like and that's where.

00;16;59;22 - 00;17;01;19
Chris
He's not like Loki, the God of mischief.

00;17;01;19 - 00;17;30;17
Brenton
Right, right, right. Yeah. And I think that it can be like any bad thing. Well, that's the enemy. It's the enemy against us. And it just becomes part of Christian, you know, speech. But I think that yeah, you're, you're raised spiritual warfare certainly exists. But maybe, maybe I'll bring this up. It's been a long time since I've read it, but the Screwtape Letters, you know, is is a it's a fiction book by Lewis.

00;17;30;19 - 00;17;39;18
Brenton
But it's it's kind of his view on a correspondence between a, you know, upper ranking demon and a lower one and wormwood.

00;17;39;18 - 00;17;40;10
Chris
I believe, is his.

00;17;40;10 - 00;18;10;09
Brenton
Name or. Yeah. And you know, when when I listen to that, it just it made more sense than what the cultural view of it was because it was more of like a logical like, how can we do the most harm through? And most of it was like, how do we get this person disinterested in something? How do we get this person apathetic instead of like, how do I cause a hurricane or like those kind of things that we often attribute to attribute to the devil?

00;18;10;11 - 00;18;20;28
Brenton
I think I think if if that stuff is happening and I think it's fair to say it is, it's probably more logical and tactical than than we often think it is.

00;18;21;01 - 00;18;49;01
Chris
Sure. No, I think that's I think that's a great way to put it. And, you know, in my experience as a pastor, I really have rarely, at least I've been aware of interacted with someone who's demon possessed or even demon oppress, at least in a in a significant way where it would kind of be obvious. But I certainly have ran into hundreds and hundreds of people who are apathetic about all kinds of things.

00;18;49;03 - 00;19;19;29
Chris
Right. Right. And and so, you know, and the Bible also says that the devil, you know, he describes himself as an angel of light. And so so a lot of times he I mean, he's he's a deceiver. Right? And so he he doesn't come to us in those dramatic ways that we might think about is like sometimes he actually comes to us in the form of things that can be good or can appear to be good or can appear to be true.

00;19;19;29 - 00;19;25;21
Chris
And he deceives, deceives us into believing something that is false or harmful. Sure.

00;19;25;24 - 00;19;55;07
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense, I think. And I think that's what's a helpful way to put all that. So what about, like, cultural understandings of the angels? I mean, there's there's a lot of things there's a lot of things that people believe, you know, like guardian angels or. Yeah. Or people becoming an angel when you die or when they start playing baseball because you need the California Angels to still win opinions or your dad returns to your family.

00;19;55;09 - 00;19;57;06
Brenton
Familiar with that movie?

00;19;57;09 - 00;20;03;13
Chris
Kind of. I don't really want to admit it, but yeah.

00;20;03;16 - 00;20;18;03
Brenton
It's Christopher Lloyd. Come on. But, you know, becoming an angel when you die, God needed another angel in heaven, that kind of thing. Yeah. Where does that stuff come from? And. And where do we. Where do we draw the line between, like, biblical angels?

00;20;18;07 - 00;20;46;18
Chris
Yeah. So. Well, I would, I would take this in two different directions. I think you divide things up here a little bit, first of all, so let's say the guardian angel. Our question and I think that this comes from Matthew 18, where Jesus says, See that you do not look down on one of these little ones for I tell you that they're angels in heaven, always see the face of my father in heaven.

00;20;46;20 - 00;21;08;07
Chris
So the word there in in this verse is a collective pronoun in the Greek, and it refers to the fact that believers are served by angels in general. All right. So it's not actually saying that we each have an individual guardian angel like Brenton. You have.

00;21;08;12 - 00;21;09;03
Brenton
Right?

00;21;09;05 - 00;21;43;29
Chris
Your own angel and I have my own angel and everybody has their own angel. I just means that believers have angels as guardian and protecting and ministering to us. And so do you have your own, you know, your own specific angel? One that's out there that's, you know, your very own or you are its very own. I don't think that the Bible actually tells us that is the case, but can say that there are a group of angels that are, you know, watching over and protecting us.

00;21;43;29 - 00;22;13;23
Chris
So the effect, I think, is is the same. I think we just got to be careful not to go beyond what scripture says. And then I think the one that maybe is is is more important for us to get right on is like people because I hear this, I hear it at funerals. And enough on a fairly regular basis is that they're they're an angel now and that's not actually the case is like we do not become angels.

00;22;13;23 - 00;22;37;24
Chris
We so we just give a little bit of an overview here because this is something I find that people are confused on, is that when a believer dies, they're their body remains here on Earth and their spirit enters into the presence of the Lord. Paul So sicker than Chapter five, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

00;22;37;26 - 00;23;17;16
Chris
And then when Jesus returns, He, those spirits of those who have passed away. This is First Thessalonians four will be reunited with those those bodies. And so they will now be once again a spirit embodied body and so in a new a new body that is never to die again, and the believers who are still alive, when Jesus returns, their body will be just transformed.

00;23;17;16 - 00;23;44;00
Chris
So it will be a perfect their spirit body will never be separated. I go into all of that to say, like people who have passed away and are are with the Lord in heaven do not have a body right now. Yeah, right. But neither are they angels. They're a human spirit. And that will be reunited with a human body at some point in the future when Jesus returns.

00;23;44;03 - 00;24;08;06
Chris
And we will live in that new perfect body that that is, you know, mirrors Jesus. Jesus's a resurrected body. So when Jesus was resurrected dead, so when Jesus died, his spirit went to be with the Lord. And then when he was resurrected, the spirit, the body were reunited. And Jesus still has a body today, and he'll have a body for all eternity.

00;24;08;08 - 00;24;30;13
Chris
And our that's what we will mirror. So we're we don't become angels. We temporarily are just a spirit without a body. And then ultimately we will be like we are today just in a perfect spirit, in a perfect body that we will have and exist for forever. So that is maybe more than I need to go into there.

00;24;30;13 - 00;24;56;14
Chris
But I think it's really important we're not angels and we shouldn't think of ourselves as angels. We weren't created as angels. We will not be recreated as angels. Angels have a place in God's creation and we have a place in God's creation. And those are each unique and different. And in some ways, if I can say ours is is a more significant one.

00;24;56;16 - 00;25;20;03
Chris
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think we're still actually in Think in our souls, soul and ourselves short. If if we're saying whether we're going to become angels and and here's another thing is you get this idea like angels are their wings and like and you know that robes and all this kind of stuff and some angels do have do have wings, you know, above the, you know, the mercy seats, you know.

00;25;20;03 - 00;25;40;16
Chris
Yeah. I mean, and so there are apparently angels that have wings. We see that in Isaiah chapter six, you know, where Isaiah gets this taken in the throne room of God and angels get, you know, six wings and all this kind of stuff. So apparently some of them do, but that's not the way all of them are described, right?

00;25;40;19 - 00;25;45;08
Brenton
Yeah. Every time a bell rings, an angel gets, you know.

00;25;45;11 - 00;25;50;19
Chris
I mean, it's again, I wouldn't say some of them do, but, you know, these things get popularized.

00;25;50;22 - 00;25;52;12
Brenton
Yeah.

00;25;52;15 - 00;26;13;09
Chris
In mostly time by media and or, you know, different stories. And some of those movies, as you've already mentioned. And so we get this idea in our mind and in that's certainly not the case. I mean, like, I don't know about you, but it doesn't really filling in excitement to think about being an angel.

00;26;13;12 - 00;26;33;12
Brenton
So it's an interesting I don't know if I've ever really connected that, but but you're right. Like the the idea of us becoming glorified people is is more exciting than like our redemption and glorification and more exciting than just becoming a another entity.

00;26;33;14 - 00;26;52;16
Chris
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I mean, they're powerful and wise and all the kind of stuff, but the, the reality is, is we, if we, if, if our bodies are going to be like Jesus's resurrected body, which is actually what the scriptures tell us, you know, Jesus is he's he's walking through walls, he's appearing and disappearing.

00;26;52;19 - 00;26;58;10
Chris
He's flying. And I'm not I'm not trying to be silly here.

00;26;58;10 - 00;27;00;08
Brenton
Or.

00;27;00;10 - 00;27;22;16
Chris
It's like, that's what Paul says. We will be given a body like his resurrected body, first Corinthians 15. And so I think our I think actually we're still on or sort of short. And I think in regard to heaven, period, it's going to be we're going to be much greater and it's going to be much greater than we really can even begin to fathom right now.

00;27;22;18 - 00;27;31;00
Brenton
Yeah, it's good. I feel like we need to move on to the topic of ghosts now. We. I'm kidding. I'm not doing that.

00;27;31;02 - 00;27;35;15
Chris
Yeah, me either.

00;27;35;17 - 00;27;42;28
Brenton
No, that was that was a helpful conversation on on Angels. Do you have anything else you want to you want to say in regards to that? I can't wait for the questions on this.

00;27;42;28 - 00;27;44;02
Chris
I think that's enough.

00;27;44;02 - 00;27;44;13
Brenton
Okay.

00;27;44;13 - 00;27;48;00
Chris
But I would love to hear some some questions for you.

00;27;48;00 - 00;28;18;16
Brenton
Good. Okay, I have one more just from from the sermon here. You would said, quote, They don't realize their need for reconciliation. Instead, they simply see Jesus as a friend or helper or therapist. And I think you're you're really talking about unbelievers here. But this kind of thinking can can even kind of happen in Christians where where we get used to the truth of the gospel and they become almost mundane.

00;28;18;16 - 00;28;27;15
Brenton
Do you do you think that this is a conscious decision by someone or does it happen over time as we get used to the truths?

00;28;27;17 - 00;29;11;26
Chris
I don't think that it normally and probably hardly ever actually is where someone consciously gets used to the truth of the gospel. But I do think it comes about because we don't fully in the church oftentimes teach the gospel, preach the gospel, and we have a very limited view of what the gospel actually is. One of the books that's been very foundational for me in my growth and development has been the disciplines of Grace by Jerry Bridges, and he talks about where we have this really bad habit of believing the gospel is only for unbelievers.

00;29;11;28 - 00;29;41;10
Chris
And so once someone believes the gospel and and what he means by the gospel is simply, you know, those elemental truths of the gospel, you know, I'm a sinner. Jesus is, is God died for my sins, rose again, so that through faith in him, I'm saved, forgiven, and I have eternal life. And we think that that's the God, that's the gospel, the end all, be all the gospel.

00;29;41;10 - 00;30;00;21
Chris
That's for unbelievers. And then once someone believes that, then we kind of he literally says, as we put the gospel up on the shelf, and then we want to go on to the deeper truths of the Christian faith and not not recognizing this. Another pastor says that the the gospel is not just the the diving board into the Christian life.

00;30;00;21 - 00;30;25;17
Chris
It's the whole pool that we swim in. And urged him. Keller would say it's not just the ABCs of the of the Christian life. It's the eighties years of the Christian life. And so we never get to the bottom of the gospel. It's a well from which we can always go deeper and, you know, learn more and apply more.

00;30;25;19 - 00;30;54;22
Chris
And so I don't think anybody, hardly anybody consciously does this, but I just think the church has not done a good job and therefore we have come to the place where we just don't recognize that we we need to go back to the gospel over and over again. And there's really almost an infinite amount of applications for it in the way that it needs to specifically speak to and into and through our lives.

00;30;54;24 - 00;30;56;12
Chris
Yeah.

00;30;56;14 - 00;31;15;23
Brenton
Yeah, I I'll definitely second that book. I know we've talked about it before on the show, but if you haven't read it, I think it's it's well worth your time to consider just how far the gospel goes into our Christian life and how important it is to to stay with us.

00;31;15;23 - 00;31;45;29
Chris
So and well, let me just add this. I because I find that this is true in in my own life is that I think part of growing interfaith. So you just talk about sanctification for a moment. The gospel actually tells us that we never fully arrive here in this lifetime life. We never come to the place where we have a need, where we don't need to grow anymore.

00;31;46;02 - 00;32;12;22
Chris
Now there are branches of Christianity who would teach that? You can get to this, you know, point of sinless perfection. I think that borders on heretical, to be honest with you, it's certainly unbiblical at best. But because the gospel really teaches we've seen this in Romans is that, you know, we're in this process of sanctification, in this process of growth.

00;32;12;22 - 00;32;38;28
Chris
And so my experience is and I think that this is true for everybody is is that the more that we do understand the gospel and the more that we grow, the more that we will see how much we actually need it, and that there really probably is a never, never an end to the place where we need to grow to see like I need to realize I need it more than I think that I Yeah.

00;32;39;01 - 00;33;07;10
Chris
And so that's why I was kind of driving this, this, this point home because it is true that there are people who never truly believe and receive the peace of God because they don't see really true the see their need for it. And so they never do experience it. But even those who do experience and receive the peace of God, I would say need to grow deeper.

00;33;07;10 - 00;33;10;17
Chris
And how much they desperately need it.

00;33;10;19 - 00;33;29;13
Brenton
Yeah, that's that's an interesting way to put it, that it's it's almost a question of maturity. The less sanctified we are, the the less will realize how much sin is actually in us. And the opposite of that is true, that the more we are sanctified, the more we realize how much we need grace and how much sin is actually in us.

00;33;29;13 - 00;34;08;23
Chris
So yeah, I do think the and it's you know, it's not it's counterintuitive. The, the, the more holy you become, which is another way of saying the more mature, the more sanctified you become, the more you will be aware of your sin. So the more you become aware of how unholy you are. Right. And so if you really think that you are holy and this is really tied to humility, which we're going to talk about this week, this coming Sunday, some then you're you're actually revealing how unholy you truly, really are.

00;34;08;26 - 00;34;36;29
Chris
The sign of holiness is is a recognition of how unholy you are because there is an infinite gulf between God's holiness and and our holiness. Like, even though every Christian has some measure of holiness, and I'm not talking about position or holiness like our status before God, I'm talking about the everyday. You know, Peter talks about first Peter went there to be holy as I am holy.

00;34;36;29 - 00;34;51;14
Chris
He's quoting the Old Testament there. So we're to be holy like God is holy. So that's with this progressive sanctification. But the more we progress in our sanctification, the more will recognize how much we need to to progress on our side.

00;34;51;17 - 00;35;11;02
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah, that's, that's really helpful. And I and we're going to end it here, but I appreciate you guys listening. Thanks, Chris, for the conversation on Angels and we'll we'll see what comes of that book keeps on it in your questions if you got any angel questions, send them to Chris.

00;35;11;04 - 00;35;12;14
Chris
Right.

00;35;12;17 - 00;35;14;07
Brenton
All right. We'll talk to you guys next week. Thanks.