00;00;02;16 - 00;00;28;03
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to further. I'm Brenton Grimm. so today is actually a pretty exciting episode. So we have, not only Chris Carr here, I.

00;00;28;06 - 00;00;42;23
Brenton
Chris. Hello. but we have two brothers. We have the Shin brothers. So Matt and Mike Shinn here. guys, can you just kind of start by introducing yourself? Tell us about your, your, your professional career and, and your role in the church here.

00;00;43;01 - 00;01;01;19
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah, I appreciate that. so my name is Mike Shin, and, I'm here with Matt and we actually have a lot of things in common, so. Matt, Mike, we get confused a lot. You probably even today, you'll hear our voice and wonder which one's talking. So anything good that comes out is probably mine. And otherwise it's probably Matt's.

00;01;01;22 - 00;01;21;25
Matt/Mike Shinns
but we, both of us actually are, serve as elders at Harmony Bible Church, and, Matt serves as an elder at the Burlington campus, and, I do here in Danville. And we, we work together. So we're partners, in a financial advisory business. And maybe just a quick on, you know, what do you do?

00;01;21;26 - 00;01;40;12
Matt/Mike Shinns
We always tell people we kind of act as, a financial quarterback. So we help people, in all aspects. We do a lot of different things. but I think that the best summation of that is we act as a financial quarterback and helping people and in all things, financial. Most times people think retirement, but it's so much more than that.

00;01;40;12 - 00;01;42;07
Matt/Mike Shinns
So. Yeah. Yeah. We appreciate you having us.

00;01;42;07 - 00;01;44;10
Brenton
Yeah. Absolutely. Appreciate you guys coming.

00;01;44;17 - 00;02;01;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
Might be helpful. Just to clarify for our listeners who's older and who's younger. So, you know, the birth order can get important and might even come out here in this conversation. So, if I if I remember right, Matt, you're five years older than me. That's right. Yeah. Almost five. Yeah.

00;02;01;08 - 00;02;04;11
Brenton
I just figured you were twins.

00;02;04;14 - 00;02;05;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
I don't know, right?

00;02;05;07 - 00;02;06;02
Chris
Yeah. Thanks.

00;02;06;03 - 00;02;10;29
Matt/Mike Shinns
Maybe offends one of us to make us feel really good.

00;02;11;02 - 00;02;29;11
Brenton
All right, well, I do appreciate you guys coming in. I think I think, this episode is really going to be, again, coming off of the sermon, a just a practical, way to approach this. And, we've heard a lot of good teaching at a Second Corinthians. And so how do we apply that is really the question of the day.

00;02;29;11 - 00;02;57;16
Brenton
So I'm going to start out, with, a verse that Chris talked about on Sunday, which was first Timothy six, nine and ten, which, which says, but those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.

00;02;57;19 - 00;03;10;18
Brenton
It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and have pierced themselves with many pegs. So, guys, in your experience, have you have you seen this to be true?

00;03;10;20 - 00;03;34;24
Chris
Yeah, I'd say absolutely. you know, a lot of times when we, when we think about, the love of money being the root of all kinds of evil, we usually think about people that, that, that, want more and more and more of that kind of thing. we've, we see that in, overwork, to be quite honest, this is something that even in my past, I've had to repent of.

00;03;34;24 - 00;03;58;09
Chris
I don't necessarily even know if that was the love of money. But there's something about, I think, in our society as a whole, as an American culture, that there's this, we got to really be careful that money doesn't become an idol, and it can really show itself and manifest itself in a lot of ways. My, you know, we've even seen it, in times where, people are, maybe too tight fisted, with things.

00;03;58;09 - 00;04;22;28
Chris
So, you know, a lot of times we think some of that has a, has a lot of debt and maybe living above their means might, might, might have this love for money, maybe someone who's who's working, but also to, working too much, might have, a love of money, but we've even seen it where, people hold so tightly and cling to the money that they have that it can even be, be detrimental.

00;04;23;01 - 00;04;29;04
Brenton
Yeah. Mike, can you think of any other specific dangers that you guys have seen?

00;04;29;06 - 00;04;47;15
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah, I think I think those are the two honestly main ones generally. we actually Matt and I were talking about this yesterday a little bit. I was going to hit. Maybe I'll come back if that's okay. But, like, on that expense side, you know, that's Matt mentioned he maybe leans towards the revenue or the, you know, working too hard.

00;04;47;17 - 00;05;09;28
Matt/Mike Shinns
I'm probably more on the opposite side. We're different in that way. I probably am maybe more the cheaper one, right. The one that is, less apt to let go. And you see both sides, you know, and I, we hear people talk like they'll take the six month free Panera membership, and then they put it on somebody else's email address, like these kinds of little things where they feel like they're they're really being good stewards, so to speak.

00;05;09;28 - 00;05;26;28
Matt/Mike Shinns
But then you kind of it's like it borderlines that are you really doing the right thing to save the 12 bucks, you know what I mean? Like those sorts of things come up. And so we we really see that. And then the other thing I would say with this, this, this the love of money, it happens within families, right?

00;05;27;01 - 00;05;34;06
Matt/Mike Shinns
comes up with in family situations a lot and oh man is runs the gamut. a lot.

00;05;34;06 - 00;05;36;19
Brenton
Of times in that. What do you what do you mean? It comes up in families? Yeah.

00;05;36;19 - 00;05;54;14
Matt/Mike Shinns
Just, honestly, a lot of times it happens when somebody passes. I feel like that's that's when things kind of come to a head and. And you'll see this love of money, and it it could be, we rationalized it in different ways or people do. it could be as much as I felt like I took care of mom and dad.

00;05;54;16 - 00;06;09;04
Matt/Mike Shinns
and so because of that, I deserve this or, Oh, right. Yeah. these these sorts of things. yeah. So, I mean, we can give you a lot of examples, but that's probably one that that comes up a lot in, like the estate process.

00;06;09;04 - 00;06;34;27
Chris
Yeah. And I think one of the things that's kind of, to, you know, not to get into real specifics on that, but the truth is it doesn't take much money to really break relationships. And for, you know, siblings to turn on one another or even to disown, you know, a surviving father or mother. I mean, you know, just depending on how things are broken up at times.

00;06;34;29 - 00;06;38;28
Chris
it can it can be it can be pretty eye opening. What's important.

00;06;38;29 - 00;07;03;20
Matt/Mike Shinns
I can even think of situations where, like, you know, parents or a parent will they'll save money to give to their kids. and we've been in meetings where maybe they, you know, they bring their children in to give is like to, you know, talk to the next generation and make sure it is on the same page. And there'll be comments made along the lines of, almost like they lorded over them, like, I've saved this money, for you have taken care of you.

00;07;03;22 - 00;07;12;03
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right. And then to expect something in return this those sorts of. Yeah, that's come up actually quite a bit honestly.

00;07;12;05 - 00;07;34;27
Brenton
Yeah. Matt, going back to something you said about, you know, it doesn't necessarily take a lot of money. I think that's that's one thing I was thinking earlier is, you know, the obvious ones that we look at are the people that have a lot of money, right, that that have trouble or we see them as idolizing money. But I think there's normal everyday people that make a, a meager salary that are still really holding onto money.

00;07;34;27 - 00;07;38;22
Brenton
Right? This can apply to all of us equally. Absolutely.

00;07;38;22 - 00;08;07;04
Chris
You know, one of the things that we talk about is that it's, it's about perspective. You know, things are pretty relative. Mike was even sharing with me this morning about a story about a gentleman who who kind of thought that, you know, he really had a lot of money. And in the scheme of things, to most people it wasn't a lot of money, but to him, he was actually even kind of carrying himself in such a way that, kind of puffed himself up with a small amount.

00;08;07;06 - 00;08;27;24
Chris
and the truth is, you know, a lot of money is relative to where you're at and where your station is. Yeah. financially speaking, you know, I think that's why, you know, the series has been so good because the truth of the matter is, it is a matter of the heart. And and we hear that. But and it's a it's a simple truth.

00;08;27;24 - 00;08;38;26
Chris
It's something that we all know. But wow, the depth of that and how it shows itself and that nobody can. We all need to take heed of that, you know.

00;08;38;28 - 00;09;09;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah. Well, one of the things I tried to get across in this series, I hope I did is, you know, we can be generous regardless of how much we make, which also means that we we can be greedy, regardless of how much we make or how much we have. and because it's not so much again, about how much we're giving specifically, but are we coming out of a generous heart and a generous spirit and, and are we viewing it like what we have, whether it's a little, a lot, or somewhere, most of us, somewhere in between?

00;09;09;10 - 00;09;19;07
Matt/Mike Shinns
Are we viewing this as gods and we're just, you know, stewarding it that in a way that's going to further his kingdom, meet people's needs, and lay up treasure for herself in heaven? You know.

00;09;19;09 - 00;09;21;26
Brenton
It's good to nobody's excused from this conversation.

00;09;21;26 - 00;09;46;02
Matt/Mike Shinns
No, I think that that I mean, I think it's easy for people who consider themselves poor or or not wealthy to look at wealthier people and think, you know, they're they're greedy, they've got this, they got a problem, and I'm immune from that because I just don't have that much. And that's just not the case. It's interesting you say that, Chris, because when I think about just the people that we know, obviously we get to go know a lot of different people, different backgrounds.

00;09;46;04 - 00;10;04;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
I don't know if Matt would agree with this or not, but sometimes I feel like the folks that are most wealthy are the most generous. And it would be easy to say, well, of course they are right because they come from a position of of money or whatever. But most of the time they had that spirit before, right?

00;10;04;08 - 00;10;23;18
Matt/Mike Shinns
I mean, that's just that. Yeah, you're not I'm not making a saying. Yeah. I'm not claiming anything. I'm just saying that the heart of that, it's always it's always been a heart of theirs. Right. Well, you're not going to be generous once you make a certain amount of money. Like that's I think that that's that's so many people think that is like, I will be generous when I get to this place.

00;10;23;18 - 00;10;41;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
It doesn't. It just doesn't work that way. if you're not, you know, Jesus says you're not faithful with little. You can't be entrusted with much. and I think that that's a real danger that a lot of people fall into is like, if I just get to this point, then I will. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so much.

00;10;41;08 - 00;10;42;23
Chris
Going through my head right now. I think I even like.

00;10;42;23 - 00;10;43;19
Matt/Mike Shinns
The, the parable of the.

00;10;43;19 - 00;11;07;03
Chris
Talents, like, like whatever we have been given by the Lord, you know, like it all comes from him. We need to, we need to steward that well, manage that well for him. and also to. You made me think when Mike mentioned that many of the the people that I know who are extremely generous and have significant means, they they didn't have that their entire life.

00;11;07;10 - 00;11;29;04
Chris
That's going back to Chris just said, and I know that we're kind of at the end of this, this generous series. I remember one of the first things I think Chris said in the first, the first message was the fact that as Americans, we always compare ourselves to that top one half of 1% of the richest people. When the truth of the matter is all of us are in the top 95 or whatever that is of people in the world.

00;11;29;04 - 00;11;35;01
Chris
So, you know, again, that perspective is, is is really, really important.

00;11;35;03 - 00;11;56;28
Brenton
Yeah. Good. Okay. So one of Chris's points on Sunday was to make a plan to be generous. Right. and, I think that probably isn't the most popular thing to do, but what what do you think the result is? And I'm sure you guys have seen it of of handling this idea haphazardly.

00;11;57;00 - 00;12;14;26
Matt/Mike Shinns
And honestly, I think the, the result of handling, whether it's budgeting or any portion of your financial life haphazardly, is it just doesn't happen. Like if you don't if you don't attack it, if you're not intentional, as with anything in our life, you know, it just, it's just not going to happen. That's that's the that's the truth.

00;12;15;01 - 00;12;32;19
Matt/Mike Shinns
Because one of the things I think about is all of financial things are intertwined, right? There's no you pull a string over here or something happens over here. There's no every dollar that goes out for this isn't going over for this. And so if you're not intentional about everything, it just it just doesn't happen.

00;12;32;22 - 00;13;00;21
Chris
Yeah. I mean, we we think in our business and what we tell clients is that, you know, planning is absolutely vital, planning and all of your, your finances. And I think Chris mentioned it in a message that if you if you if you fail at planning, you're planning to fail. I mean, that is just absolutely true. I think the other thing to, that's that's really, important that goes along with this planning is, is being prepared to be generous.

00;13;00;24 - 00;13;28;14
Chris
And I really think that we probably saw that as a body with that reverse offering, because we actually put we actually put dollars in people's pockets and prepared them to be generous. And I think I think having that prepared mean being prepared to be generous and then seeing those opportunities that the Lord provides is just as we go throughout our day that we're ready and we're looking for that opportunity to share what he shared us.

00;13;28;16 - 00;13;47;11
Chris
I think that goes from, you know, maybe having an extra 20 or something in your wallet to give to somebody to actually even putting a financial plan together about, you know, we we talk a lot about, a lot of times people talk about retiring. We all, you know, we were going to retire from this, but what are we going to retire to?

00;13;47;13 - 00;13;51;19
Chris
You know, the Bible doesn't talk anything about retiring or quitting or just hanging it up.

00;13;51;21 - 00;13;52;07
Brenton
Right?

00;13;52;09 - 00;14;08;07
Chris
You know, a great Piper sermon on that. and, so, so what are we retiring to? And generosity needs to be, you know, included in that, whether that's even in our time, which affects our resources, you know, money and all all of those things.

00;14;08;07 - 00;14;32;10
Matt/Mike Shinns
And so, yeah, one of the things I think about that reverse offering to Matt mentioned, that was, the thoughtfulness that people put into that, like, so they, they have a 20 now and the thoughtfulness, they discussed it with their family. They talked about what can we do with this? I think if we had that kind of thoughtfulness for all the money that we had, like if we put that kind of intentional ality into where do these dollars need to go?

00;14;32;10 - 00;14;43;20
Matt/Mike Shinns
The Lord's, the Lord's, you know, giving us this. Where does that money need to go? If we were that intentional for for every dollar, not just the 20 that received on the reverse offering. Yeah. How much of a difference I would make.

00;14;43;20 - 00;14;56;27
Brenton
No, that's a good point. Okay. So so keeping that in mind and planning to be generous, what steps do you guys suggest? to get someone started on that.

00;14;57;00 - 00;15;17;18
Matt/Mike Shinns
Honestly is it I know it's been talked about in previous podcasts or the budget. Yeah, right. You got a budget and budgets are kind of, some for some people it's kind of a bad word because it just seems, it seems restricting or like it's going to. But the truth is, until you know where your money's going, and most people don't.

00;15;17;20 - 00;15;36;20
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right. until you know where your money's going, it's hard to make any changes. but the truth is, when you start writing things down, knowing where things going, that's when you can really make some, you know, some wise decisions. You know, I always think about eating out. That's just the one that always comes to my mind, just how expensive that is and how that adds up, you know?

00;15;36;20 - 00;16;07;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
Can we throw something in a crock pot? You know, those sorts of things? I think kind of people start to think about. And then, the other thing that I like about budgeting is that is that that, as it pertains to generosity, is that it's off the top, like we're giving off the top. I think it was during maybe when you guys did the podcast with I think Brock was on and talked about he I think he talked about that idea that somebody getting paid is that first dollar back to the Lord.

00;16;07;07 - 00;16;18;09
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right. And I like that you know that illustration was good. And I think that's right. When you budget you're not flying by the seat of their pants. You're not given the leftovers. It's those first fruits that we've been talking about.

00;16;18;13 - 00;16;36;01
Brenton
Yeah. So you're right that that did come up when Brock was here. And I think it was it was helpful to kind of talk to him through that. And what, what stops people from creating a budget. And I think a lot of it, from his perspective at least, was I think it comes down to people maybe don't want to know.

00;16;36;01 - 00;16;50;03
Brenton
They don't want to know the answer to where their money's going. And so from there, like, what have you guys seen from, like resistance to, to budgeting? What what are those kind of blocks for people.

00;16;50;06 - 00;17;15;26
Chris
Yeah. So this is something that we actually go through every class and faith and finance city hope. And one of the first things to do, with budget is you got to know where your money's going. You got to track your expenses. And I would completely agree with Brock that one people don't really want to know. And second is that it takes a lot of discipline, to, to track where every dollar is going.

00;17;15;28 - 00;17;31;28
Chris
we've had people that we've worked with and they would show they I say, well, you know, do you have a budget? Yeah we do. And and they'd bring the budget and they'd have hundreds of dollars of excess every month. And, you know, the question is what do you see that reflected in your, in your bank account? Is your bank account growing.

00;17;31;28 - 00;17;54;09
Chris
No, we're barely getting getting getting by. And and I'm talking I mean, not significant dollars. Well, the truth is, is that those dollars are going to energy drinks and coffees and lunches out. And it's just it's just it's just it's just moving. So until you know where every dollar is going, you really can't put a budget together. And then the next.

00;17;54;09 - 00;18;18;14
Chris
So, you know, knowing where every dollar is going, putting that budget together, putting, you know, tracking all of the ins and the outs and then figuring out if you've got a shortfall in that budget. Because if you got a shortfall, you have no capacity to give. Right. And then that's when you've got to start either whittling debt down, cutting expenses or whatever, because it's out of that excess, it's out of that debt that we we have the opportunity to give.

00;18;18;17 - 00;18;37;09
Chris
And and again, if you if you're already not down that road, I think it's right. If you're, you know, if you're young and you're just starting out or you just got a new job or you just got a large pay increase and you're making more than what you've ever made before, it's great to start giving that that first dollar out.

00;18;37;09 - 00;18;57;21
Chris
But I think as Americans, the majority are probably falling short every month, or they're or they're building debt in that capacity to give and to be generous. The way that we've been called has been diminished because, Because we we've overspent and we wouldn't put ourselves in a position to be generous.

00;18;57;24 - 00;19;17;13
Matt/Mike Shinns
I think part of the problem is we don't prioritize either. We let the we let dollars dictate our lives instead of us dictating our dollars. So we find out where the money is going. Well, given needs to be number one. And then as a financial advisor, I'd say you need to save some for yourself for emergencies, future, those sorts of things.

00;19;17;13 - 00;19;40;29
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah. Then you have your house, shelter, food, energy. Right. We you prioritize these things. But what ends up happening for a lot of people is those things that I would think would fall at the bottom of a budget. you know, we need clothing, but the the excess, the coffee, the eating out, these kinds of things, those end up being a huge portion of somebody's budget.

00;19;41;01 - 00;20;13;25
Matt/Mike Shinns
And those other things become the leftovers. We need to prioritize. When we budget where the dollars are going, we need to be in control of those dollars and dictate that. Yeah, yeah. So I want, to dialog with you guys on, something here because some of the nice. Yeah, I came at it a little from a little bit of a different perspective on on Sunday, and I, with the first fruits giving, I think you just mentioned like, budget and then make sure in your budget there's stuff left over to give.

00;20;13;28 - 00;20;34;24
Matt/Mike Shinns
Where I'm coming at it from is no, you decide you take a certain percentage in first fruits first portion giving. And that's the first thing in the budget. And where do you guys come at it and where the giving. And then you work the budget out from from there. So and it's just dialog on that a little bit.

00;20;34;26 - 00;20;35;23
Matt/Mike Shinns
No I, I.

00;20;35;29 - 00;20;55;16
Chris
I think that's exactly right Chris. I guess I was, I was approaching it a little bit of what I've seen in like when we teach faith and finance and we're in the majority of the American probably the population are is that they are already tapped. Credit card debt is growing in they probably find themselves in a place where they can't even begin to think about that.

00;20;55;16 - 00;21;33;11
Chris
But I think that's where you're you're right. Making sure that that that, you know, that first fruits giving that the Lord is getting what you've put in. You know, he's placed in your heart to give and then all these other things. I've actually my wife, Don, and I have actually experienced that where we when we were young, we had two, two incomes, we, we, we used both of those incomes and, and then, kids then we started having, having children and it was just really placed on, on, on my, my wife's heart that she wanted to stay home with those kids.

00;21;33;13 - 00;21;59;06
Chris
And, and the truth is, she had been praying for me in that we were not in a place where, you know, financially the ends would come together that way. And, and I actually came to her one time and, and said, hey, what do you think about staying home? And the truth of the matter is, like the ends on the paper never, never kind of met, but we never did without.

00;21;59;06 - 00;22;07;26
Chris
And and the Lord provided in, in a, in a in a miraculous way. I mean, that's what it.

00;22;07;26 - 00;22;09;03
Matt/Mike Shinns
Was.

00;22;09;05 - 00;22;34;29
Chris
and we never did without. And, she was able to stay home and so forth. So, I, I wholeheartedly agree. I think, how do we give people those, those steps to, to to take, to take steps of faith in some, some, some real, I guess some things to, to implement, to, to get to where to get to that.

00;22;35;00 - 00;22;58;16
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah. It's a I'm, I'm assuming today it's a broad audience. Right. We have folks that if we looked at their budget, it's going to be in the red every month. That makes it tough when you've got creditors calling. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean. Yeah. The giving conversation is different for those folks from, you know, I think it's more it's a, it's a both a, it's a both and you, you know, first fruits and budget it would doing both of those things.

00;22;58;16 - 00;23;08;16
Matt/Mike Shinns
And this is where probably the people need to get some advice from guys like you. It's help us to figure out how to do that. And we have those resources available to the church. Yeah.

00;23;08;21 - 00;23;42;02
Chris
The truth is it may be it may be a piece of you know, it may be repentance. Like like why why am I living so far, above my means that I, I can't give the way that that that I would like or the way that I've been called to give, repentance might need, might need to be in order and, and then, you know, that that that change of heart, that change of direction and then and then start working on these things so we can get to the place where, where, you know, the you're you're given the way the Lord's called you to give.

00;23;42;04 - 00;23;44;17
Chris
You can be be generous.

00;23;44;20 - 00;24;15;14
Matt/Mike Shinns
I think that goes back a little bit. Nobody's ever said this, but I'm just with budgeting. Why is it so difficult? Because you are going to know, right? You're going to know where the dollars are going. and, you're going to see where your heart is, right? You're going to see if I'm spending X number of dollars a month over here on, things that I don't need or want or, you know, the other wants, but I'm not giving like I should feel that that shows where your heart is.

00;24;15;14 - 00;24;26;15
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right. And I think people are a little afraid to face that. Sometimes. I think it's just it's hard. It's hard to, you know, come to come to grips with that because ignorance is bliss sometimes. Yeah, absolutely.

00;24;26;21 - 00;24;44;28
Chris
And I think also two people have a really tough time knowing the difference or understand the difference between needs and wants. You know, I, I need I need this, I need my, my, my whatever it is, you know, I mean, we we always pick on the easy ones. Yes.

00;24;44;28 - 00;24;49;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
I need that Starbucks new phone. Right? Yeah. Netflix. Right. yeah.

00;24;49;10 - 00;24;51;11
Chris
All of those things. It's such a need.

00;24;51;14 - 00;24;51;28
Brenton
Way off.

00;24;51;28 - 00;24;55;03
Chris
Chris. And we don't find out.

00;24;55;08 - 00;24;59;02
Matt/Mike Shinns
I didn't hit you on that. And,

00;24;59;04 - 00;25;15;13
Chris
But it really kind of comes down to that. And the truth is, when when you really get get down to that, you know, the Lord, the Lord will provide our needs. Yeah. You know, he will provide it. And the truth is, he provides a lot of our wants. I mean, he's just he's just generous that way and gracious to us.

00;25;15;15 - 00;25;39;14
Chris
But our our one that we view as needs, it never ends. There's always the the new phone, the new this, the it's always. And the truth is, I think if we're being honest to ourselves, it we're caught in this in this the cycle or the this trap. And honestly hopefully the Lord can like, like free us from like just seeing that that he is better than these things.

00;25;39;14 - 00;25;58;24
Chris
These things. Never the reason I always need that new phone or whatever, because the last one didn't satisfy me, you know, the last one didn't, you know, I might be I might be getting off a little bit on that, but but it was kind of like, I feel like people find themselves in that, like, we're just caught in this constant trap of more and more, more.

00;25;58;26 - 00;26;01;17
Chris
And it just. It never ends. It never ends.

00;26;01;17 - 00;26;22;18
Brenton
Yeah. So, okay, we've we've established at least one of the problems, Chris, feel free to jump in on this, but how how do we advise people if they are in that position to to come out of that? I think, Matt, you mentioned repentance. I think you're you're completely right that it is likely a heart issue somewhere back that we need to deal with and repent of.

00;26;22;18 - 00;26;32;26
Brenton
But how do we how do we go about in every situation is going to be different, right. But what advice do you guys have for that?

00;26;32;28 - 00;26;52;26
Matt/Mike Shinns
Honestly, I think you just it goes back to that being intentional. You know, once your heart changes and you're like, I got to make some changes here to be intentional and to be all in on it. You know, I always think about it. So, like weight loss a little bit. Well, if I just, you know, I'm always talking about losing weight.

00;26;53;00 - 00;27;11;04
Matt/Mike Shinns
And if I, if I attack something half heartedly, I'm not going to lose weight. I'm just not like, you can't you can't attack these things at the fringe. You've got to get to the heart of the issue, and you got to be all in on it, right? Because otherwise it's not going to. So I'm going to move the needle.

00;27;11;06 - 00;27;12;26
Matt/Mike Shinns
I can get there.

00;27;12;28 - 00;27;33;17
Chris
As I say to, you know, we're called to confess our sins to one another. And I just I just stayed just a little while ago that I have not been perfect in this my entire life. And I am not perfect now. I mean, you know, I mean, there are still things. Do I still have these, you know, whatever it is, whatever that, that thing is.

00;27;33;17 - 00;27;57;24
Chris
Have I gotten much better? Absolutely. You know, but I think I think, you know, to confess our sins when I know that you're not in it alone and that that, you know, we are we we have we are a large body, large church. We have a lot of resources. We have a lot of people that could come alongside and help people with, with, with budgeting, you know, with, with, with getting a credit report that might need to be cleaned up.

00;27;57;24 - 00;28;13;26
Chris
They actually get a credit report that see what, see what's on it. How do I read that? What's the first step in that to help people start moving down that road to to generosity, you know? yeah. I mean, I just I think that's that's important too.

00;28;13;28 - 00;28;34;20
Matt/Mike Shinns
Sometimes I think there's a sense of embarrassment when people they know they've got a right. And but if you don't, if you don't come out with it, if you don't confess, you know, go seek help. It's just never getting any better. right. I do think that's a real problem for people, but one of the things we say a lot of we've I feel like we've said a lot is money.

00;28;34;26 - 00;28;59;24
Matt/Mike Shinns
Money is never the problem. And situations now that that's pretty broad brush. But for the most part, when there's money issues in any given circumstance, there's there's something behind it that's causing it. Money's not the problem. There's a heart issue. There's there's bitterness, there's selfishness, there's whatever. And it shows itself. It reveals itself in money. And so that's where I go back to.

00;28;59;25 - 00;29;05;09
Matt/Mike Shinns
You got to deal with the root of it, because a lot of times the money issues are just the fruit.

00;29;05;11 - 00;29;32;19
Brenton
Yeah. So I think just speaking of of confession and repentance, you know, these things like many other sins, like to hide in the dark. And I think that you're completely right. That embarrassment is it's a big part of this. And so just as some encouragement here, first John one nine, if we confess with if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

00;29;32;21 - 00;29;43;21
Brenton
And so I you're right. Like the first step is if we if we've found a heart problem, we repent and we look for forgiveness.

00;29;43;23 - 00;30;16;14
Chris
I think the one thing that should be mentioned, too, is that, you know, when we did the reverse offering, we gave it to each each family. And these are, you know, for, for for those that are married and have a family, these are family issues. And I just think that also it's just super important to make sure that the husband and the wife are on the same page in these things, because you could have one spouse, that, that, that wants to be generous, that wants to, maybe reduce debt or get out of debt that wants to do these things.

00;30;16;14 - 00;30;27;16
Chris
But if the other spouses and on that same page, that is, that's a situation that just, is not, not workable and they need to be unified in that.

00;30;27;19 - 00;30;38;29
Matt/Mike Shinns
You guys have any thoughts on that help all the couples get on the same page? Because I know you are correct. and that's a real issue.

00;30;39;01 - 00;30;59;18
Matt/Mike Shinns
I want to take the easy side of that. I think it needs to be talked about before marriage. Right. Because we all grew up in different households, handle money, different ways. and I think sometimes, you know, younger couples, you know, we got all these things. Things are great. Love each other, want to get married, but money can cause issues, right?

00;30;59;18 - 00;31;31;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
How do you handle that? Can that can cause a real divide. I think the first thing is making sure you're on the same page, or you get on the same page before before you're married, remember that you're one. we see that a lot where, you know, people handle things in a different way. And I'm not saying it's wrong, but I think, I think having those joint accounts and I think that that that helps force that oneness, we're working in this together as opposed to separate that may not be popular because I know there's a lot of people, they handle their accounts separately.

00;31;31;08 - 00;31;51;11
Matt/Mike Shinns
but just experience says if you handle it together, you're forced to have those conversations and work on it together. Yeah, I'll just go on record. I have a real issue with married couples that have separate accounts. I think that the two become one, one flesh, and I think it's, it really, in many ways, I think is unbiblical.

00;31;51;11 - 00;31;52;04
Matt/Mike Shinns
And I think that.

00;31;52;04 - 00;31;52;17
Chris
It sets.

00;31;52;17 - 00;32;11;18
Matt/Mike Shinns
A couple up for, for, for problems. And in some ways, it's just it's a way, for people to hide things. That's right. it's a way that people can even prepare themselves for not being married. and I'm not saying that there's never a reason not to not to have that or to do that. I'm. No, I'm not saying that.

00;32;11;21 - 00;32;34;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
I'm just saying that. I think it's I think it's dangerous and I think it does not. it's not really in line with what the Bible tells us about. Yeah. Leaving and cleaving, and the two become one flesh. Yeah. And we've seen situations where maybe there's even bitterness. Right? Because not always do. One was one spouse make the same amount of money as another spouse if they're both working.

00;32;34;05 - 00;32;46;24
Matt/Mike Shinns
And then I can create. But you just see some of that. So yeah, that that would be maybe something real practical where married couples can because it does it does forces you to be on the same page and talk about those things.

00;32;46;26 - 00;33;16;18
Chris
Yeah, I, I completely agree with you, Chris. I mean, and and I think going back to, you know, what are some practical ways, you know, Mike, Mike mentioned about, you know, prior to. Absolutely. That is like the perfect scenario. But again, it's going to go back to that plan. We've we've seen and as we as we might do, like a larger financial plan for, for, for for folks that maybe they might not even have the idea of what like something like retirement looks like.

00;33;16;20 - 00;33;40;04
Chris
And here's, here's this could be a couple that's married, you know, 20, 25, 30, 35 years. And they even haven't had that conversation about what does retirement look like? I think that kind of, lack of communication about financial matters and so forth. it doesn't it isn't just it doesn't start there. It starts the fact that we never put a budget together, together.

00;33;40;04 - 00;33;57;12
Chris
And then we didn't really hold each other accountable. You know, actually some, some of the best practices for folks that are actually just starting this out and making sure that the household is engaged on this and they even talk about in, in our, in our faith and finance, even talking about getting the kids involved because the kids are part of that household.

00;33;57;12 - 00;34;13;27
Chris
You know, my son wants a new a new computer, he wants a new pair of shoes, he wants a new, you know, and you may not want to share all of your finances, but making sure that that the household is, is, is on the same page. And then reviewing that at least weekly on how we're doing and how.

00;34;13;27 - 00;34;14;23
Matt/Mike Shinns
We're tracking.

00;34;14;25 - 00;34;24;08
Chris
That creates that communication. And it also creates that that understanding. And there's there's nothing hidden here, there's nothing hidden. We're bringing everything out in the light.

00;34;24;10 - 00;34;53;08
Brenton
It's good. So there's a couple more topics I want to hit, real quick though. maybe not real quick, but say a couple comes into your office and it's apparent quickly that it's just disagreement between between the husband and wife. What's your suggestion? There is it to go find counseling? Is it something that you guys can help with, or how do you how do you approach that issue?

00;34;53;11 - 00;35;12;22
Matt/Mike Shinns
I would say we we try to help, on the money side to the extent we can. But like I mentioned earlier, a lot of times, it's not a, it's not a money issue. There's other issues. And we have recommend to people go seek counseling before. Absolutely. Because you gotta you gotta flush out what's happening in there.

00;35;12;22 - 00;35;24;12
Matt/Mike Shinns
And, the money thing will take care of itself, right? It'll it'll if the hearts are right, things are right. It'll take care of itself. But yeah, really deal with that root problem of whatever's going on.

00;35;24;14 - 00;35;54;27
Chris
Yeah, I would say that we've we've been blessed, you know, and sometimes you like, you just, you know, you talk about walking in the spirit and there's just times that you might we might be in a meeting or whatever. And, you know, we feel this prompting or the Lord will put a verse in or whatever. And we may I want to say, you know, and we might, we might lead down those paths a little bit, you know, to, to make sure because I mean, again, like so many of these things are heart issues and there's only, only the Lord can change the heart of somebody.

00;35;54;27 - 00;36;21;18
Chris
Only someone can, you know, and especially I think it's very difficult for, for transformation to take place, usually when people are sitting across from their financial advisor. You know, I mean, the truth is that, you know, we we, we, we prayed for our clients. So, you know, and and we do that and I think, just to make sure that there, they're on the same page and so forth, because a lot of that it is it is a heart issue.

00;36;21;20 - 00;36;31;14
Chris
You know, she goes, you know, yeah, yeah, I know, you know, I'm not supposed to end a sentence like that on a podcast because I was just, you know, really kind of short and but anyway.

00;36;31;17 - 00;36;32;07
Brenton
It was good.

00;36;32;09 - 00;36;50;13
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah. I mean, most of the time when, when people have this issue, there's a deeper issue that needs to get addressed, right? I mean, it's and so in some, some cases, I think we, we find that we, we need to step back and we say, okay, listen, the and you guys wouldn't do this necessarily in, in your business.

00;36;50;13 - 00;37;16;04
Matt/Mike Shinns
But you know, as a pastor I would say, okay, there's a financial issue okay. Maybe I'll send you to, to see Matt and, and or Mike to, to talk about this. But let's, let's talk about the deeper issue that might be here. And let's try to address that because, a lot of times, you know, we're talking about fruit and root, and the fruit might be how they're spending the money, but the root is, you know, maybe there's bitterness between them.

00;37;16;04 - 00;37;33;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
They're not communicate. Well, there's, you know, there's, you know, we've got this we've never really dealt with in our relationship or whatever and those kind of things that need to get addressed before, before or in conjunction with the money issue. I think that's right. Chris. I you still got to deal with the fruit. Yeah, it's still a problem, right?

00;37;33;08 - 00;37;43;13
Matt/Mike Shinns
There's no financial issue. Had to take care of. Right. But the but but the heart that's what we need to guard and we need to work on the fruit will end up taking care of itself if the heart's in the right place. Yeah, right.

00;37;43;16 - 00;38;05;02
Brenton
Okay, good. All right. The two last things I want to talk about are debt and retirement. So we again, this was something we discussed with Brock. But I want to get your thoughts on it too. how do you guys, advise or how do you think about this, this idea of debt is is it always an obstacle to generosity, or is it only when it's gotten out of hand?

00;38;05;02 - 00;38;08;09
Brenton
How do you guys handle this?

00;38;08;11 - 00;38;28;14
Chris
you know, I think one of the first things, you know, people hear debt and they just think, oh, that's bad. Thanks, Dave. Yeah, I think they think Dave Ramsey for that. The truth is, is that not all debts are created equal. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of things that, that people wouldn't be able to do or have the opportunity to do if they didn't have, have, have some debt.

00;38;28;14 - 00;38;56;25
Chris
And it's the debt for. So what's the purpose of it? Is it in moderation? You know, many of us would never get into a home without, that many of us wouldn't be able to start a business without some debt. so, so, so that kind of debt, we always, you know, back in my, in my, my banking life, we used to have there was a guy I used to say is a green debt or is it red that is it green debt that that earns money that we can leverage to earn dollars?

00;38;56;25 - 00;39;24;19
Chris
Or is it just just does it just sit there and just take money? So I think, I think not all debt is an obstacle. it depends on what kind of debt and what it's for. I would just say that that, you know, credit card debt is always an obstacle. you know, because usually that's, that's, living expenses or something like that, that, that is just you're just living outside of your means.

00;39;24;21 - 00;39;51;18
Chris
but, you know, and the other thing that we talk about and, is that I've heard my brothers say, and I think it's exactly right that in, in retirement, it's really about cash flow. It's really about the dollars. Like it takes cash to buy a loaf of bread. It takes cash to pay my utility. My, it takes cash to give to, you know, the church, if I've got debt, that cash is already spoken for.

00;39;51;21 - 00;40;00;19
Chris
So that's where it can be an obstacle. Especially if it's if if it's if it's out of line with, with with with with my income and what I've got coming in.

00;40;00;21 - 00;40;14;19
Brenton
So that's good. That's a good distinction to the consumer debt I think is what, you know, everybody everybody in your position is going to have a problem with. And that's that's I think a huge struggle, especially in our country.

00;40;14;21 - 00;40;38;14
Matt/Mike Shinns
I think the problem with it is there's no, you know, credit cards have no asset to back them up. Like by nature, they're probably a sign of overspending if you're not paying it off every month, right. If you're paying it off every month unnecessarily. But if you're paying, if you're not paying it off, it's probably a sign that there's, you know, that you're overspending, that you, you can't afford to the lifestyle that you're, you're leading.

00;40;38;14 - 00;40;57;14
Matt/Mike Shinns
And as far as, like, other kinds of debt, I would always just encourage somebody, you know, we don't we don't get too specific on a lot of types of debt. But I was I would always encourage somebody, make sure you're never upside down in any loan, which just means I can always sell whatever it is that I'm borrowing for and be okay.

00;40;57;17 - 00;41;17;16
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right. So think about a car. Well, if I go buy a new car and it's $20,000, which, you know, I can't do that right now. Good luck. Yeah. Good luck. But but for, you know, for me, if I go buy a new car is $20,000 and I borrow $20,000. We all know what happens when I drive that off the lot 2018 or 2017, 16, whatever.

00;41;17;18 - 00;41;34;17
Matt/Mike Shinns
And then if I have to get rid of that car because an emergency comes up and I sell it for what it's worth, 16 oh, $4,000, I'm upside down in that. That's never good. I don't think that's ever okay. and the cars are depreciating assets over time, you know what I mean? It's always gonna be worth less.

00;41;34;17 - 00;41;49;06
Matt/Mike Shinns
So you got to be. You got to be. If you're going to take debt on a car, you've got to make sure you have the down payment or those sorts of things where a house is different, that's different. That's you know what I mean? So it's not all created equal. And you really gotta, you know, work credit card debt.

00;41;49;09 - 00;42;17;21
Matt/Mike Shinns
There's nothing attached to that. Yeah. I wonder, and maybe we don't have time for this so you can decide to cut this later and if you want. But I do wonder if for for some, even using a credit card is not healthy simply because, even if you are paying it off at the end of the month, because are we tempted then to to just purchase more than we should or more than we need, simply because it's so easy to do?

00;42;17;21 - 00;42;35;21
Matt/Mike Shinns
So? I actually have that written down here. If you can't handle it, get rid of it. And that's with any. And how do you know if you can't handle it, if you're not paying it off, if you're carrying debt on a credit card? In my mind you've kind of shown you can't handle it because that's that's not what it's for.

00;42;35;21 - 00;42;56;05
Matt/Mike Shinns
It's not meant to carry your balances in. I agree with that. What I'm though, trying to get out here is, is that I wonder if for some of us, we, we end up actually spending more, even though we're paying it off at the end of the month because it's so easy to do so. And we're not we're not actually keeping track of things and we're not monitoring things.

00;42;56;05 - 00;43;07;20
Matt/Mike Shinns
And so, you know, it's just like, you know, you talk about Amazon and just clicking the button and there it is I want it. Bam. It comes out of my Amazon Prime credit card. I'm getting points from it. You know what I like it.

00;43;07;20 - 00;43;40;28
Chris
And so I think that I think that's right. I mean, you know, it can keep you from being as generous as you could be. Like it shifts that that that piece. That's why I think, you know, the first fruits like like if, you know, it probably doesn't necessarily actually work this way. But if you gave first to the Lord, you know, like if you got paid once a month and you got paid on the first and you gave it first to the Lord, and then you lived the way that you just described Chris, like, I'm just like, you know, and then you couldn't pay it off at the end.

00;43;41;00 - 00;43;57;08
Chris
Then then you've got you've got it. You've got an issue. Right? Because because I've given first alert. But we don't live that way. We don't get paid on the first and then give it to the Lord. And then we live on the, on the left. We get we get paid once a week or whatever that is, and we get that.

00;43;57;13 - 00;44;16;27
Chris
So again, I think it goes back to that, that, that, that, that wants and needs and how all that, that, that comes together because it again and I'm going to go back to that, that budget. It's very hard to track expenses when you just can swipe or tap or whatever it is with that credit card.

00;44;16;27 - 00;44;31;10
Matt/Mike Shinns
I'm not saying that credit cards are bad. I'm not, we shouldn't have them. I'm not. I'm not saying I'm just wanting to get your opinion on that. Maybe the the potential dangers of that. I think that's good. The the only thing I would say about that is I think everybody's different.

00;44;31;17 - 00;44;32;01
Chris
Get to know.

00;44;32;01 - 00;44;33;12
Brenton
Yourself. And.

00;44;33;15 - 00;44;50;22
Matt/Mike Shinns
and be honest with yourself. That kind of goes back to that heart thing, because one of the things I think about is so I, I rarely carry cash personally on me. I, you know, I don't usually have a card, you know, debit card, credit card, whatever. And I have actually found that if I have cash that I go through faster.

00;44;50;23 - 00;44;51;25
Brenton
It feels like free money.

00;44;51;25 - 00;44;54;01
Matt/Mike Shinns
It feels like free money is exactly right. It's not totally.

00;44;54;01 - 00;44;55;01
Brenton
How I feel.

00;44;55;03 - 00;44;56;02
Matt/Mike Shinns
Jennifer. And I would say, oh.

00;44;56;02 - 00;44;57;18
Chris
That's not a bunch of money. Like, oh, that's.

00;44;57;18 - 00;44;58;15
Matt/Mike Shinns
Right, we call it free.

00;44;58;15 - 00;45;02;13
Chris
Eat out or whatever that is. Right? It's a younger group saying where I say, really?

00;45;02;19 - 00;45;20;08
Matt/Mike Shinns
And this goes back to the earlier conversation, but I have a joint account and I got to go buy something. Well, I got to give that receipt to my wife because she takes care of the check. There's accountability in that. Right. And so for, for me I feel like I'm held you know like I have a tougher time pulling the card out than I do cash because I feel like.

00;45;20;11 - 00;45;21;04
Matt/Mike Shinns
So everybody's.

00;45;21;04 - 00;45;21;28
Chris
Going to operate a little bit.

00;45;21;28 - 00;45;28;21
Matt/Mike Shinns
Differently. That's just that's just me. But you gotta know your heart. You gotta be honest with yourself because everybody's a little bit different when it comes to that.

00;45;28;24 - 00;45;58;15
Brenton
Yeah. Good. Okay, so we're going a little long. I do want to get your, just thoughts on retirement and and how to how to think about that. I know it's kind of hard to do in two minutes or whatever, but what do you how do you prepare people for retirement? I know that always comes into that conversation, too, but given everything we've talked about, just what are some what are some thoughts, on how you advise people to get ready for it.

00;45;58;17 - 00;46;21;17
Matt/Mike Shinns
I'll be honest. It's a little bit it's a little bit difficult. I mean, the podcast is for the people of Harmony Bible Church, right? But we we work with a lot of unbelievers that just maybe view retirement a little bit differently than a believer should. All right. So you have that, but normally we do encourage people regardless of it's not what you're doing.

00;46;21;18 - 00;46;40;10
Matt/Mike Shinns
Try not to think about it. And this is hard for some folks trying not to think about it. What am I retiring from? But what am I retiring to? What's that look like? Right. And I think you, I think you have to define the word retirement, because I think sometimes retirement has almost become synonymous with, I'm done.

00;46;40;13 - 00;47;01;17
Matt/Mike Shinns
Like I'm done. It's it's me time now. Right? As opposed to retirement looking like I've told my employer I no longer want your paycheck because I can serve the Lord in greater ways with my time and essentially pay myself, you know what I mean? So there's a you kind of have to define what that retirement looks like and or what it means.

00;47;01;20 - 00;47;02;21
Matt/Mike Shinns


00;47;02;24 - 00;47;04;13
Brenton
Yeah. It's good that.

00;47;04;16 - 00;47;05;29
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah, I, I think, I think a.

00;47;05;29 - 00;47;26;17
Chris
Good example of that, of what are you retiring from? What are you retiring to? Is that if it wasn't for retirees like our ministry, the cupboard, you know, city host ministry of the coverage, it wouldn't function. Yeah, it wouldn't function at all. Yeah. So, you know, those are those are folks that are that that are meeting a physical need.

00;47;26;19 - 00;47;33;21
Chris
They're praying. They're sharing the gospel because that's what they're doing in retirement instead of just, you know.

00;47;33;22 - 00;47;34;28
Matt/Mike Shinns
Living for themselves, living for.

00;47;34;28 - 00;47;55;13
Chris
Themselves. And I think that's, you know, I think that's just it that's just one example, you know, of, of maybe, you know, so what are you going to do? How are you going to serve the body? How are you going to grow the kingdom in retirement? And the truth is, is that if I've got a 401 K or I got an IRA that I'm, you know, the Lord's given me that.

00;47;55;13 - 00;48;07;17
Chris
So I don't have to give 40 or 50 hours a week to this, this job I can give I can give my time to to the body, to the kingdom and, and making Jesus more famous, you know.

00;48;07;20 - 00;48;25;01
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really just, you know, preparing now to be to be more generous later. And, and that takes a lot of intentionality. It's a lot of things we talked earlier, but. Okay. Thanks, guys. Really appreciate you coming in a lot of wisdom here.

00;48;25;04 - 00;48;31;23
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah. And I really appreciate you guys. So and what you do for the Lord church. And it's great to partner with you.

00;48;32;00 - 00;48;34;08
Chris
So thanks for coming in. Thanks, Chris.

00;48;34;11 - 00;48;36;18
Matt/Mike Shinns
Yeah, yeah, yeah. On to Esther.

00;48;36;25 - 00;48;39;26
Brenton
On the Esther. Yeah, yeah. Are you excited for that?

00;48;39;28 - 00;48;43;00
Chris
I am, I'm looking forward to this.

00;48;43;02 - 00;48;45;03
Brenton
Okay. All right. Talk to you guys next week.