DESIGN THINKER PODCAST

Ep#18: The Feasibility Lens: Is it something we can conceivably do?

November 27, 2023 Dr. Dani Chesson and Designer Peter Allan Episode 18
DESIGN THINKER PODCAST
Ep#18: The Feasibility Lens: Is it something we can conceivably do?
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

The first of a three-part series on the three lenses of design thinking, this episode explores the feasibility lens. Join Dr Dani and Designer Peter as they take an in-depth look at feasibility. 

In this episode, you will be able to 
• learn about the five components of feasibility 
• understand how ignoring feasibility can lead to impractical solutions 
• hear real-world examples of the feasibility lens in action 

From theory to practice, let's dive into how to bring bold ideas into existence through the feasibility lens. 





Dr Dani:

Welcome to the Design Thinker podcast, where we explore the theory and practice of design, hosted by me, donnie, and me Peter. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode. This week, we're kicking off a series of three episodes where we explore the three lenses of design thinking. So, if you're not familiar with this, the three lenses are feasibility, viability and desirability. Over the next three weeks, we're going to take a deep dive into each of these lenses to understand why it's important and how to apply it. So let's jump into the conversation. Hey, peter.

Designer Peter:

Hello Dani, how are you?

Dr Dani:

How are you?

Designer Peter:

I'm very well, thank you. It's a beautiful, sunny day here in.

Dr Dani:

Auckland Summer is almost here.

Designer Peter:

Summer's almost here as we speak, and I'm looking forward to our conversation this morning. What we're going to be talking about this morning.

Dr Dani:

Today's topic is feasibility.

Designer Peter:

I did a quick search about the three lenses earlier. You're right that sometimes people refer to them as the innovation lenses or design lenses or design thinking lenses, but I definitely see them as a core mental model of design and design thinking. Feasibility go back to what I like to do and look up the definition of feasibility. Rather than feasibility, do you want to know the dictionary definition of feasibility? So it's an adjective. It's an adjective and it means possible to do easily or conveniently, or it can also mean likely or probable, as in the most feasible explanation. And I really like understanding where words come from. So the origin of feasible actually goes all the way back to the Latin word faceri, fe, c, e, e, and that means to do or make. There you go. So there's the definition of feasible.

Dr Dani:

I'm struggling a little bit with the easily or conveniently done pace, because a lot of times the right thing to do is in the easy thing to do or the convenient thing to do, yeah. Yet we say in innovation we've got to balance these three lenses of desirability, viability, feasibility.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, when I wrote that definition, I was slightly surprised at how specific it was about easily or conveniently. For me, when I'm thinking about those three lenses, that's not really what I think of, and maybe you're the same. From the sides of it, I think of feasibility as what can we do, what's possible to do, but not that easily or conveniently, because if it was easier or convenient then maybe it would be happening already, wouldn't it?

Dr Dani:

Yeah, generally, something that's a problem means that there isn't something easier or convenient.

Designer Peter:

Yeah. So I think of when we're beyond this easier convenient. What's our? Maybe we've got the dictionary definition of feasible and feasibility. What's our definition and the context of these three lenses? Let's see if we can come up with one.

Dr Dani:

So, within the practice of design thinking, what does feasibility mean? It has to do with the level of practicality. In my work there are sort of five things that I look at when we're looking at a solution. So one is is it technically feasible? One is is it financially feasible? It might be technically feasible, but if it costs, could we practically deliver this within the budget that we have? I think feasibility also has to do with do we have the capability to do this? Feasibility also relates to operationalizing something. Yeah Right, so something might be a good idea, but when you bring it into the context the larger context of the organization and how the organization operates it may not be feasible to fit that into the context. And then the last one is legally. Is it something we could do Like? Are we making sure that we're not breaking any laws? So in my work, when I think about the feasibility lens, those are the five things that I think about.

Designer Peter:

Cool. I have a couple of questions about one or two of those, but we can come back to them. I think about, definitely technical so what's technically feasible, and in my mental model that means like what kind of current software platforms et cetera actually do if we were, or what kind of channels I guess let's call them so working in either retail or banking or telecommunications, what's technically possible, both in software terms and I guess let's call it hardware or physical assets. And then I also think about and maybe this is kind of overlapping with your capability line now think about what's feasible in our, from our, people point of view. So I think that's what you mean by capable. I also think about not just the capability of the people but the, specifically, I guess, the configuration of people, because if you organize groups of people in certain ways, then some things are feasible but some things are less feasible. But then if you rearrange teams or groups of people in a different way, then the opposite becomes true. I can't think of a concrete example of that at the moment, but yeah, just thinking about what's technically possible from a hardware, software point of view, and then what's possible for a configuration of people, and maybe that, yeah, this is bringing to life for me, the kind of easy and convenient being less part of it our definition compared to the dictionary definition, because changing either technical setups or people setups is not particularly easy or convenient. I do like your five things considering legal stuff, that's very important Operationalizing. Coming back to financially, though so practical to deliver within budget, and we're maybe stealing a bit of airtime from the next episode. When we talk about viability, though, If we think about being commercially viable, does that mean what?

Dr Dani:

Financial viability is about. Once this is done, is it going to be viable? Whereas in feasibility, when we talk about the financial aspect of it, like can we do it within a budget that we're given, it's like the reasonability of the cost of doing it.

Designer Peter:

That makes sense.

Dr Dani:

Your comment around like moving people around. That to me is what I consider under operationalizing it. I think you're right. Sometimes the way a team is structured may not make a solution very feasible. But if we look at, if we shift things around, will that work? That's an operational feasibility.

Designer Peter:

Cool, you're winning me round to having these five things, sandy, because I've got four fingers and a thumb on my hand and I can maybe remember them. What about the capability, then? That helped us understand a bit more about capability in terms of what's feasible and what we should be thinking about considering.

Dr Dani:

So the most relevant example I have of this is there was this time frame where companies were going digital, and this is still a journey that lots of companies are still in but that lead to digital. The feasibility of that was really impacted by the fact that if your workforce does not have those capabilities to be able to use the digital tools, then the solution isn't feasible. The same with the customers right. So when banks started to go digital in the early days, the leaders of that really had to invest in teaching customers how to bank online. Because people didn't understand how to bank online. It made the solution. It impacted the feasibility of that solution, but we made it feasible by helping in the developing of the capabilities. Yeah, yeah.

Designer Peter:

Nice, and that's just maybe thinking for another similar story that I've got personal experience of. Maybe you have to, but Air New Zealand over many years actually increased the capability of their customers to check themselves in at the airport. When I first arrived in New Zealand many years ago, they were just starting out in that journey and while it was desirable for me to check myself in at the airport and many other people I'm sure at the time the general population was, I guess, used to the model of someone helps me check in, so I'm actually incapable of doing it for myself. And yeah, in order to move people most people to be able to check themselves in, they had lots of staff around the self-checking desks to help people. And now, if you go to there, so that was then because almost as many people helping people check in by themselves. If they would have been checking them in, if that makes sense. Now you go to the airport and there's very few. So far lower ratio. So, yeah, I hadn't put that kind of connection together in my mind until now around. Actually, I think into yourself not just are people capable, but are our customers capable? And the scribble of takeaway down are customers capable? Good question. And also because initially, when you're starting to talk about it, isn't that kind of part of desirability. But no, you're right, I like it. I like it. Some separation out to this feasible lens.

Dr Dani:

Yeah, because then I think so. With capability though, is it something people can actually do, versus have the capability to do, versus something people want to do? Those are different, yeah. So I wonder then, does feasibility really have to do it? Is it something we can conceivably do?

Designer Peter:

Tell me more about that, conceivably do.

Dr Dani:

Could we conceive a way to make this happen? Because that's the core question we should be asking when we're evaluating feasibility.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, that's a nice summary. I mean I, yes, let me think that through out loud. Often I'll use a ridiculous example to bring to life the kind of feasibility lens. So if we're just focusing on desirability and let's say the problem we're trying to solve is people's morning commute, then you know it's desirable, assuming that everyone wants to go to or needs to go to the office and it's a distance from there where they live and there's, you know, traffic in between. So it would be desirable for us to have some sort of way of transporting ourselves instantaneously from home to the office. You know teleportation, for example, and perhaps that that's desirable in some way to lots of people to solve that traffic time commuting problem. But completely infeasible, never mind whether it's commercially viable or but there's just no, there's within our current reality there's no possible way of doing that. But it's a good way to kind of start exploring desirability and then thinking about feasibility. Second, so yes, if your question, what is it conceivable to do? Like it is inconceivable within our current rules of physics to have to have the transportation? Yeah, and if we apply that question, is it conceivable technically? Is it conceivable financially? Is it conceivable from a capability and operation, on a legal point of view. That's some. That's nice. For me, the feasibility in particular is one that can bring things into the world of reality, like how it's great coming up with ideas that are going to really meet somebody's needs, I'm going to wow people. What works is equally as important. But then bring us full circle back to the easily or conveniently. This is where the easily or conveniently doesn't work, because actually a lot of these things is conceivable to do them If we've got the time, the resources to actually do them. It might take effort to get there.

Dr Dani:

And I think in the context of solving problems, which is at its core, design thinking is a way to solve problems easy and convenient, as we said earlier, like if it was easy and if it was convenient, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place. So I think this is one of those situations where the dictionary definition is true in everyday context, but when we apply the concept of feasibility to design thinking, it has a slightly different definition.

Designer Peter:

I've thought of another one in which I think might be solid, and another couple that might be less solid to add to your list of five, which means I will have to go into my other hand when I'm trying to remember them. But the first one is, I think, solid, so feasible politically. And then I thought socially and then I thought ethically. But the reason socially and ethically are a slight question works for me because I wonder whether they are our desirability, potentially.

Dr Dani:

So for me, I feel like ethical sits under viability. Because is it ethically viable? That's how it lands in my mind. Tell me why you think it fits into feasibility.

Designer Peter:

Well, I guess, in the same way that technical, financial, operational, legal and capability essentially constraints right, we should have ethical constraints, but then again, if we do a quick Google search, we could find there's no conversations and extensions of these three lenses that include a dozen more lenses that cover all of these different things separately. I guess our perspective, I think, is let's keep it simple and have three lenses because then branch out our questions and kind of because you can include, you know, you can talk about sustainability, which I think is really really important for me. Some of these things like, in my mind, sustainability and perhaps even ethical, ethically ethical ethics and fit in, should fit in desirable, like our kind of duty of care, if you like, as designers within organizations is to ensure that we're doing things that are ethical and also sustainable because they are those two things sit in the viability.

Dr Dani:

So next week's conversation is going to be really interesting.

Designer Peter:

We'll pause and come back to that then.

Dr Dani:

Yeah, we'll come back to that one.

Designer Peter:

So come back to politically then.

Dr Dani:

Sorry.

Designer Peter:

All right, so you keep going.

Dr Dani:

So I'll just make this point and then we can get back on track. To me, legality is about can we do something. Ethics is about should we do it, and those two things, while they seem like they should always be the same, they're not always the same. So good example of that is you know, it is legal to slaughter a cow to eat it. Should we be doing that? Is it ethical to do that? I mean, that is an individual choice that can sit with ethics, but it is legal. If you choose to eat a cow, you can. Yeah, you can.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, nice.

Dr Dani:

I'm not making a play for veganism or anything here, no no, it's just the example that came to mind.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, it's a good example and it's a good distinction. Can we and should we? Okay, so that's the feasibility.

Dr Dani:

I really liked your idea, your example, sorry of teleporting. There are moments when I'm sitting in traffic banging my head on the stairs yeah, when teleportation seems like a wonderful idea. Or you know, we live in New Zealand. Home for me is 10,000 miles away. Teleportation would be amazing.

Designer Peter:

Yeah.

Dr Dani:

Yeah, so it's highly desirable. Technically, at this stage of our understanding of Zix and other things, it's not feasible.

Designer Peter:

Yeah.

Dr Dani:

So I think that's a really good example to illustrate what feasibility means. You know, and sometimes an extreme example is a good one. So I think we've talked about the what is feasibility. So we usually do what? Why is an important? So maybe we talk about why is feasibility important.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, that's a good idea. I suppose my turn to speak is an answer to that question. Why is feasibility? Well, we kind of touched on it a little bit already, but without feasibility we can't figure out whether it would be an Ludwig working or not. We might be able to. Let's pick out, let's say, the financial feasibility and in this case it's the financial feasibility that's practical to deliver within budget. So if we don't consider feasibility and we spend a lot of money, too much money, delivering something, then potentially there's not enough money to kind of run it as a continuing product service experience, whatever it is. If we don't consider feasibility, then we'll set off to solve a problem and potentially start making promises, either internally in our organization or externally, or certainly setting expectations, and then we'll start to maybe discover too late that the technology isn't available to deliver this or, like we said earlier, to reconfigure our people to create a service or deliver this product, then that some we don't have the capability and they aren't organizing the right way to do it, I don't know, I'm trying to think really simply, though, without considering feasibility then, or viability then, the peopleings can be as desirable as we want them to be, but they're not gonna survive, they're not actually going to be desirable because they won't exist to solve people's problems for them.

Dr Dani:

I agree with that, like I think it offers the balance to desirability right. To me, desirability of the lenses it's the most fascinating one because it's the one that a lot of times design thinking gets a lot of criticism for not enabling practicality. And it's a misconception, because design thinking can deliver innovation that's practical, that's doable, that really addresses pain points. And these lenses are a way that, as designers, we can balance. You know, because there is this idea of we come up with wonderfully great ideas and we encourage almost a suspending reality to come up with these big, bold ideas. Feasibility is, and viability is something to agree, but feasibility to me, is the one that really helps us shift through all the big bold ideas and go what can we actually, what can we conceivably deliver? And it's the lens that helps us get to the execution of an idea.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed. It's like the real practical, concrete stuff. Agreed, there we go. That's why it's important. Case closed.

Dr Dani:

But I do think we could do a better job of talking about feasibility as being part of design thinking. To shift mindsets around in those conversations in we hear all design thinking is just fluffy. It doesn't actually do anything. I think feasibility is something we need to talk about when we're at those conversations.

Designer Peter:

Definitely we need to talk about feasibility. What ways do you bring feasibility for life and kind of counter that misconception then?

Dr Dani:

So I think we're moving on to the how part of our oh okay, yeah, okay, well done, peter, thanks.

Designer Peter:

So we'll part of the pack for that one.

Dr Dani:

So how do we actually do feasibility? How do we do it? I know we do it, I mean.

Designer Peter:

First of all, I always describe any audience or group of participants when we're setting off on a journey of design thinking and talk about the three lenses. My personal perspective is that often in organizations we do have an idea of what's desirable and what people might need, but then it gets covered up in people's minds and we proceed with the only considerations of feasibility, and feasibility like how much have we got to spend and what can our technology do? And let's just do that. And then, just at the last minute, go what are we doing this for? Again? Oh yeah, it's to help some people. Who are they? Oh yeah, well, hopefully this thing that we just created within budget using the technology we've got right in front of us will help them, fingers crossed. The way I describe this is the difference between that approach and the design thinking. As approaches, we will more often than not start with a consideration and curiosity about desirability. So, in other words, what is it that people need and want? And for me, I describe it as a journey or a cycling through desirable, feasible and viable, or exploring all of it simultaneously, maybe sequentially, and starting to build up that balanced picture of what is the sweet spot in the middle of those three things. So how do we do? For me it's less about how do we do, feasibility and more how do we go about answering the questions of feasibility. So, like I said, like you said yourself, what is conceivable? So we go what is conceivably and then go through five or six categories what's conceivably conceivable technically, financially, from a capability point of view, from an operational point of view, from a legal point of view. So, to begin with, and again, you're going through the cycles and I guess this really comes to life when you start to, I think, prototype and test things For me like an initial round of prototyping and testing or initial round. So I suppose cycles of prototyping and testing are usually focused on desirability because that's where we know the least, like we can for feasible things that are feasible. We can usually turn existing set of knowledge that'll give us the answers. Like we can go to the manual for our software and understand what's feasible. We can go to the software providers and go what's on your roadmap, what's going to be feasible in a year's time? Likewise, financially, we can do some spreadsheet calculations. All of those, the answers are more readily available to us and are already known compared to the desirability questions. So yeah, that's why, for me, prototyping and testing to begin with is focused on desirable as we start to get into more high fidelity prototypes. Let's say it's a service and it's a service where help people with their phone and getting their phone repaired, we start to discover feasibility by actually Like that actual reality. We put a prototype in place that is testing each of the stages of that service in the real world, in the actual real world, and by that I mean it's not far beyond cardboard and paper prototypes and role playing. It's also beyond, I guess, thought experiments. It's actually setting up that service as a trial and, say, one mobile phone store and gathering data around. How long does this thing take or how much, and therefore how much is it costing us as a service to provide? That's a long answer. But I think, in summary, we can start with some existing knowledge and we can help us shape things up, but we actually need to go out into the real world and prototype and testing is to gather the real world data.

Dr Dani:

In my experience, I think I'm missing how that relates to feasibility. What am I missing here?

Designer Peter:

Well, I guess, if the question is, is it conceivable or is it doable, then you are learning if it's doable by doing it.

Dr Dani:

Ah, okay, I get it. Yep, rather than us sitting around talking about is it doable, let's go prototype and test it and learn if it's doable.

Designer Peter:

Yes, thanks, nice summary. You can cut that previous stuff out and just go. This is how we do feasibility.

Dr Dani:

I love that. I love how you've connected it to prototyping. I also want to connect it to something else. So, within the design thinker profile we talk about, one of the capabilities you talk about is collective collaboration and feasibility. Particularly, if you think about these five things you need to think about, it presents an opportunity for us to not work in silos right, for us to go talk to the technology people, for us to go talk to the operational people, for us to go talk to the legal people, for us to go talk to the learning people, all of these pockets within the organization, on top of the prototyping which is bringing in customers, consumers. It also presents an opportunity for us to be working through that collective collaboration process. Nice, yeah, I love that.

Designer Peter:

So you have to reach those five things you know. Bring in the five people that represent those areas and get them to be part of that design process.

Dr Dani:

And I guess, now that we're talking about it this way, the customer should be on this list because we could go through all the. It's technically feasible, it's financially feasible, we have the capability to do it, it's operationally feasible, it's legally feasible, but is it actually feasible for the customer to use it?

Designer Peter:

Yeah, so that's like the capability thing we talked about before, like our customers capable of checking themselves in the airport, for example. I'm sure there's other dimensions to that as well.

Dr Dani:

What I'm thinking about is you shared an example with me some time ago about cereal boxes.

Designer Peter:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dr Dani:

And I vaguely remember this, so I'll have to have you re-share it, okay.

Designer Peter:

Well, this is probably I don't know second or it's definitely third, maybe fourth-hand story, but the story is that a cereal manufacturer breakfast cereal manufacturer was trying to understand why their breakfast cereals weren't selling, and I believe the story I've heard is that the why the cereals weren't selling in China. So they spent some time doing some desktop research and gathered all the data together and what it showed them was well, the sales were way below forecast and they realized that they couldn't answer that question saying where they were. So they decided to go to China to try and find out and they went to the supermarkets to see people, if people were buying the cereal and where it was positioned and everything was as it should be in the supermarket and their cereal was kind of staying on the shelves. They also, like good designers and good design researchers. They went to people's, to the context. They went to see where things should be or where happening. So they went to people's homes to you know, interview them, engage them and understand what their lives were like and, in a non-creepy way maybe, watch them eating breakfast or finding out how that was like. What they did for breakfast. And what they discovered was when they went to people's houses is. The reason their cereal was staying on the supermarket shelves is because the shelves in Chinese kitchens weren't big enough to accommodate the cereal box.

Dr Dani:

So the size of the cereal box.

Designer Peter:

The size. The boxes were too big to fit in the cupboards so people didn't buy the cereal no-transcript. So it wasn't feasible for them to. It wasn't feasible for the customers to store the cereal in their kitchen, so they weren't buying it.

Dr Dani:

So that's what I mean about. That's not a capability issue, that's a it's a feasibility challenge, but it's I don't know. So I think there may be a potential sixth category, or maybe I'm over complicating it. But thinking about does the, is this feasible in the context that somebody's going to be using it? So maybe it's something around consumer or context.

Designer Peter:

Context. Yeah, context is really important, isn't it? And we can, my brain think, because I've always thought of context as being, you know, a question of desirability. But again, just like the, you know, just because people can, just because people want to do it, doesn't mean that they can do it. I think context is so important, it deserves its own category Because you know, as you were talking there about the cereals and people's capability, you know, questions around time or going through them, like something might be desirable for somebody to do, they might be even capable of doing it, but in the context of their lives they don't have time to do it. Context, okay.

Dr Dani:

So let's. So then, if we say the sub categories within feasibility that we need to look at are technical feasibility, budget feasibility, capability feasibility, operational feasibility, legal feasibility and context feasibility you did bring up political and social and we didn't really do anything with them. No.

Designer Peter:

You think?

Dr Dani:

those who belong in feasibility, or do they belong somewhere else?

Designer Peter:

I mean they can social, socially especially, could be belonging or at least partly in desirability, but it, or maybe socially is alongside, ethically and viable. You know, what's socially acceptable for us to do as individuals and groups? Not sure. And then politically, I was thinking that sits. For me it's kind of really similar to legally there's like a political framework in nations and countries. So you know, if we think about some of the technology that we have available to us at the moment, like TicToc for example, tictoc because it's a Chinese company, certain governments ban some of their citizens or some of their politicians from using TicToc, and I think that's nothing more than. Is that a political thing or is that a legal thing?

Dr Dani:

I guess it could be both, because if you're banning it then becomes a legal thing. But the decision could be driven by political. I wonder if there is social sits with desirability for me, because there is this like as humans and we want to engage in socially desirable behavior, because it we, you know, we have a deep seated need to fit in generalizing here of course, politically by. I think political probably sits on the viability. Where I'm torn is it kind of fits into legal. But then I also think there's a bit of like a reputational thing. So is it like, is it a, is it really a political thing or is it more of a reputational thing? Like, is doing this viable to our reputation?

Designer Peter:

Yeah, Now, and similarly, you know social. We could say well, another aspect of social or so is I agree with you on the socially desirable behavior, but also there's that you know this term social license. So you know that's potentially like do we have, as an organization, that social license to do whatever it is that we're designing or innovating? That's probably more viable. Yeah, I've got some thoughts on all of this, but we'll maybe leave it to the, to the wrap up or in the next stage of the conversation.

Dr Dani:

So let's bookmark that for the viability and desirability station. Um, okay, so I think to summarize what we said is feasibility. We've kind of reframed that from the dictionary definition to meaning is it something we can conceivably do? So that's kind of the big question we ask with feasibility. Then we said there are six things to consider. So is it technically feasible, is it budget wise, is it feasible Capability wise, is it feasible Operationally? Is it feasible, legally, is it feasible? And then contextually, is it feasible? So those are six questions we can ask when we are evaluating a solution for feasibility. Have I missed anything?

Designer Peter:

No, I think them. That's our six and here there's lots to delve into when we come to viability and then back to when we start to think about all three of those lenses together. Yeah, maybe another part of the summary is, like you said, those are really great suggestion or invitation that this is almost like the blueprint for who you want to collaborate with or to bring in to collaborate with each other and people who have expertise, points of view on each of these things, and maybe to bring in that idea of T-shaped people. The stick of those people's T maybe is in one of these domains, Nice.

Dr Dani:

I like that. The other thing I'll add to our summary is I know that we're talking about these three things individually because it fits nicely into our episodes. However, in practice, we have to focus on all three at the same time, right? Because if you don't focus on all three at the same time, you and the idea of these three lenses is we want to balance them evenly so that that's how you get to the optimal solution or the good solution. So I think it's really important that we don't place more weight on one versus the other.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, agreed. And maybe the other thing as part of our wrap-up is that I guess we've discovered ourselves in this conversation and we'll do it again and again is that this is a really simple model. I love the phrase. It's a bit of a liberating phrase. All models are broken. No model is ever perfect. So I guess my point of view I think you have the same one which is just keep it to these three circles desirable, feasible, viable, but within plus. Where is there another kind of caveat message? We're not focusing on or we're not excluding anything, and actually what's more important about the model is is letting it help guide you to ask these second, third level questions that are really important, like use it as a starting point to explore all aspects of the change you want to make in the world I guess we've talked about this before is to first do no harm. Let's make sure that we're considering unintended consequences, whether that's in any of those lenses, yeah, so and as you know we could spend. We could have a podcast series that had infinite and debates where each of these things goes and whether they belong in one lens or another, but that's not making any difference to anything. So, yeah, practically I love this these six things and also the invitation that it gives you to bring people who have expertise in that into the collaboration.

Dr Dani:

Yeah, I completely agree. All models are flawed or broken, but some are useful.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, I forgot to add that.

Dr Dani:

Yeah, this one in particular is very useful, I think it's very useful, and I think that's the thing we have to resist the urge to make models more complicated. It's got to be something we can remember and put into action, otherwise with the point. So we normally end with a takeaway. So what is your takeaway today, peter?

Designer Peter:

My takeaway is well, there's lots, when the six questions that's four more than I was four more kind of areas that I was really, on the surface at least, thinking about. But the special takeaway is thinking about customers being capable, yeah, so thank you for that. I bet you what's your takeaway.

Dr Dani:

My takeaway is how you aligned feasibility with prototyping. I mean, I think it's something that I've always in practice done but didn't really mentally connect that when we are prototyping and testing, prototypes are actually in that feasibility space. That's my takeaway.

Designer Peter:

Great Well, we've learned something from each other.

Dr Dani:

Yay, and hopefully those listening have learned at least one thing from us.

Designer Peter:

Yeah, I hope you've learned something, Lester. We'll listen to us again.

Dr Dani:

Yes, listen to us again. All right, I think that does it for us for today.

Designer Peter:

All right, great stuff. Thanks, danny, good chat.

Dr Dani:

Thanks, pete, bye Thanks.

Designer Peter:

See you next time. Bye.

Dr Dani:

See you next time.

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