Ep#36: What it Takes to Win in Customer Experience

Customer Experience (CX) is vital for businesses in the 21st century, but do we know what we mean when we say CX? In this episode, Dr Dani and Designer Peter explore CX. 

In this episode, you will 
• understand what CX is and what it is not 
• learn why CX is a vital aspect of business success 
• discover how to design and operationalize a winning CX 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr Dani: Hey Peter. 

[00:00:01] Designer Peter: Hello Dani. 

[00:00:02] Dr Dani: How are you? 

[00:00:03] Designer Peter: I'm great, thanks. How are you today? 

[00:00:05] Dr Dani: I am good. What are we talking about today? 

[00:00:11] Designer Peter: Today we are going to talk about what it takes to win in customer experience.

[00:00:17] Designer Peter: That sound good to you? 

[00:00:18] Dr Dani: That sounds amazing to me.

[00:00:20] Dr Dani: Particularly because every organization that at, at least every organization I'm working across at the moment has CX as part of their strategy, CX as part of their priorities and I'm sure even organizations that are I'm not working with particularly now as global competition increases and technology no longer provides a competitive advantage, cause it's, there used to be a time when you could build a competitive advantage around technology, but [00:01:00] in the 21st century, technology is accessible to everybody and it.

[00:01:06] Dr Dani: It changes quickly, so it's more of an enabler than a competitive advantage. So in that environment, CX is becoming more and more important. 

[00:01:18] Designer Peter: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we think we're going to delve into the how of great customer experience, which leads to, winning in customer experience.

[00:01:27] Dr Dani: We usually start with definitions. 

 Yes, and it's tempting to, in my typical style to break things apart, to parse them and go right. What's the definition of customer? What's the definition of experience? But maybe I'll not do that this time and just define or give you a couple of definitions that I found of customer experience as a phrase.

[00:01:49] Designer Peter: Actually some of the best definition or starting points I found were in Wikipedia. Customer experience, according to Wikipedia, sometimes abbreviated to C [00:02:00] A X is the totality of cognitive, affective, sensory, and behavioral customer responses during all stages of the consumption process, including pre purchase, consumption, and post purchase stages.

[00:02:16] Designer Peter: Got a few thoughts on some of those words there. I think this is still a good starting point. Different dimensions of customer experience include senses, emotions, feelings, perceptions, cognitive evaluations, involvement, memories. Oh, listen to this as well as spiritual components and behavioral intentions.

[00:02:38] Designer Peter: The pre consumption anticipation experience can be described as the amount of pleasure or displeasure received from savoring future events. So that's quite interesting. Also there's a little bit about there's a reference to Forrester Research and apparently they described the foundational elements of a remarkable customer experience consisting of six key disciplines, [00:03:00] strategy, customer understanding, design, measurement, governance, and culture.

[00:03:05] Designer Peter: So we'll just talk about all that in the next 30 minutes or so. Easy. 

[00:03:09] Dr Dani: Easy. That definition felt very intellectual to me. 

[00:03:16] Designer Peter: Yes, definitely. I'll give you one last sentence from this Wikipedia page though, because I think it helps with the why. A company's ability to deliver an experience that sets it apart in the eyes of its customers will increase the amount of consumer spending with the company and inspire loyalty to its brand.

[00:03:32] Designer Peter: Think that's it. That's enough of the why, isn't it? 

[00:03:37] Dr Dani: We can't have a mic drop moment this early in the show. 

[00:03:42] Designer Peter: Kick back, put my feet up, and just you can tell it's a rest. There you go. I've done all the work. Over to you. 

[00:03:49] Dr Dani: From a Operationalizing CX or making it very tangible, we think about customer experience is

[00:03:58] Dr Dani: isn't one thing, right? It's [00:04:00] created through a collection of interactions that a customer can have with your brand, with your product, with your service, with your company. 

[00:04:07] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:04:07] Dr Dani: So it's all of those little touch points, whether it, if you are a retailer and the customer comes to your store, purchases a product, or if you've got, if you also have an online store, customers go online and have that experience.

[00:04:22] Dr Dani: Let's say they buy something and try to return it. They buy something and they're really happy with it. All of those touch points that a customer has. helps shape what that CX is. 

[00:04:37] Designer Peter: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:04:39] Dr Dani: So we can think about it as like a cumulative perception that a customer has about you.

[00:04:45] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:04:46] Dr Dani: And when we talk about CX work, what the work is that we don't have to just sit back or we shouldn't just sit back and cross our fingers and hope that experience is good. We can actually do things to shape what that [00:05:00] customer experience is like. 

[00:05:02] Designer Peter: Yes. 

[00:05:02] Dr Dani: And hopefully create it in a way that it is a positive experience.

[00:05:07] Designer Peter: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We can be very deliberate about Yeah, learning what but for a particular customer or type of customer or group of customers. In a particular situation, we can make an effort to learn what makes and what makes it good versus what makes it okay versus what makes it bad. And then be deliberate about taking an action or not, if we choose not to on them.

[00:05:31] Designer Peter: And maybe just to expand a little bit on what you were describing there. Yeah, I like your inclusion of brand. And because, a customer experience where you can have a customer experience with actually being a customer of a business of a brand, probably getting them all the time because you're seeing advertising material, whether it's online on TV or on a billboard as you're driving down the road.

[00:05:55] Designer Peter: In my mind that kind of momentary interaction. [00:06:00] I think is a, is an experience that we should consider to be part of our customers experience of us. 

[00:06:08] Dr Dani: That's a really good point because the customer experience, it goes from awareness to discovery to, then engaging and purchasing and using and, that whole journey, the CX actually starts in that initial awareness discovery process.

[00:06:24] Dr Dani: So the CX starts before they've actually become a customer. And in that context, what we're saying is a customer isn't a customer until they've purchased something until they spent money with you. But the CX for that customer or potential customer starts before they're a customer. 

[00:06:43] Designer Peter: Yeah.

[00:06:43] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also fast forwarding to the other side of the journey where perhaps somebody is no longer a customer of yours, whether they made a single purchase and they've consumed your service or product and aren't currently [00:07:00] doing so, or they've made an active decision for whatever reason to discontinue a subscription or something, they're not an active customer, then they're still having a customer experience, Whether it's, again, billboards or, their memory of being a customer of yours.

[00:07:16] Designer Peter: Yeah, it's yeah, I think we both agree our mental models of customer experience are both similar and they're, it's much broader and over a longer timeframe than simply, buying something online in a moment or walking into a shop and buying something and walking out again.

[00:07:32] Dr Dani: Yeah. And there's some things that we don't, so if you think about something like buying a car, that's not something that we do well, most people don't buy a car every year or every month or every week. Whereas if you're a supermarket, chances are your customers are coming in. You've got frequent interactions with your customers.

[00:07:55] Dr Dani: Whereas if you sell cars you could have a customer that bought a car [00:08:00] from you and then it's five years later and there's, so that customer relationship is very different because at some point they're going to need a new car. So what are you doing in that space? To keep them what customer experience are you bringing in?

[00:08:17] Dr Dani: providing them in the time span where the, they're still using your product, but not necessarily purchasing so that when they're ready for their next purchase.

[00:08:25] Designer Peter: Yes. And maybe while we're in this avenue a different end of a kind of scale from an organ, cause buying a car from a, a brand or a garage, there's a bit of scale behind that to help you have that brand or garage towards the front of your mind when you're thinking about driving, and you're driving your car quite frequently versus on the other end of the scale the experience I thought of when you were talking about cars that was believe it or not, cat flaps, 

[00:08:54] Designer Peter: I know she's got a puzzled face on the cat flap. We've lived in the house that I'm in at the [00:09:00] moment, that we're in at the moment, for coming up for three years, and we lived in the house prior to that for about ten years. So there was about a ten year gap between having a cat flap installed in the previous house and needing a cat flap installed in this new house.

[00:09:19] Dr Dani: When you say cat flap, do you mean like a cat door? 

[00:09:23] Designer Peter: A cat door, yes. Okay, so for, we call it a cat flap. I didn't know that's called a cat door. You call it a cat door? 

[00:09:29] Dr Dani: A cat door, a doggy door, but yeah. 

[00:09:31] Designer Peter: Yeah, okay hopefully we don't need to describe it or define it anymore. But the, for us both the door in the old house and the new house were, We needed the Cat Door Car Flat installed in a glass panel.

[00:09:44] Designer Peter: And the experience we had when we had one installed ten years ago was so good, we remembered the person that did it. Now, this is a one man operation not a big car brand, or even a, The owner of People Car Garage was able to advertise [00:10:00] that experience was so good and he was so skillful and Yeah, that we remembered and looked him up and got him to come and install it again.

[00:10:08] Designer Peter: And we had exactly the same excellent experience and excellent service ten years later. 

[00:10:15] Dr Dani: That is a fantastic example. 

[00:10:19] Designer Peter: Memory is part of experiences and there are different ways to instill and elicit memories within our experiences for customers that we can design and deliver.

[00:10:33] Dr Dani: Okay, so usually we talk about what, and then we talk about why, and then we talk about how. So maybe now we talk about let's jump into why CX is important. 

[00:10:47] Designer Peter: Why CX is important? Maybe, because it's a. a key reason that people will buy things from you and keep buying things from 

[00:10:54] Dr Dani: you. 

[00:10:56] Designer Peter: It's an interesting, so price I think is part [00:11:00] of customer experience, but price can also be part, but be completely separate to a customer experience. You might pay more for something because you're going to get better service, which is part of the experience.

[00:11:14] Dr Dani: I've got loads of thoughts on that. Okay. CX isn't arbitrary. It has, to align to the company's strategy. So before you can design what the CX is, you have to understand Where is the company competing? So some companies make the conscious decision. We are going to compete on price.

[00:11:39] Dr Dani: And if you're competing on price, it doesn't mean that you don't have CX. You can still have CX but that CX is going to be very different than if you are a luxury brand that. Is charging a lot more. And so there is a certain level of expectation in terms of service, right? You've got to understand if you don't [00:12:00] understand the strategy of the organization, the market that you're competing in and the types of customers you're going after, and this is getting a little bit into the how you can't really create a good CX because you don't know what you're creating for.

[00:12:14] Dr Dani: And just like a strategy when you create CX, there are different choices that you make. And each of those choices has a trade off.

[00:12:23] Designer Peter: Yeah.

[00:12:25] Designer Peter: Good customer experience means yeah, people will not only want to be your customer or keep being your customer, but they'll likely also tell other people about the story of of the good experience they They have with you, which then creates more customers.

[00:12:41] Designer Peter: And if you still have good customer experiences for those customers, then, it's a like a chain reaction that grows and grows. Versus if you don't have a good customer experience or have a bad customer experience, then you're likely definitely think twice about buying from a company again.

[00:12:56] Designer Peter: And if it's really bad, then you'll tell people that you had a really bad experience. [00:13:00] And guess what? They will not come to you for it. What they need, they'll go to a competitor. Yeah, it's I don't know if it's, is it a double whammy? So good customer experience as a, a compounding, if you like, positive impact, at least on your on your revenue.

[00:13:13] Designer Peter: Overtime and bad customer experience as a similar, I think, compounding impact on your or negative compounding impact on your revenue. Likewise on your revenue, and I'm being careful to say revenue because, you might spend more money delivering a better customer experience which will impact your profit, but that's one of the things you were just talking about there.

[00:13:33] Designer Peter: Is there another reason beyond just generating revenue? I guess within, or, you want just, I think It's creating positive energy in the world, isn't it? Is that a bit cheesy or maybe that's the spiritual aspect that Wikipedia's page was talking about. But if you if you've got a choice between making people feel or helping people feel better [00:14:00] or not, then surely you would try and help people feel better, even if that's for a brief moment.

[00:14:09] Dr Dani: Generally as humans, , I always assume that we are, we're more good than bad. So we want, if we had the choice to make somebody's life better, we would do those things. Maybe I'm a little bit jaded cause I've sat in too many. Too many corporate decision making tables but they know the practicality of a business is you've got to balance a business has to make money to stay in business.

[00:14:36] Dr Dani: So you've got to, you've got to balance profitability with a good customer experience with delivering good, the quality of the product, because you can't have. A really crappy product, but then say, Hey, our customer experience is really amazing. So there's always this tension of how do we balance these three things?

[00:14:56] Dr Dani: And that's where, we've done a couple of episodes on the three [00:15:00] lenses, the desirability, viability, feasibility. And I think when we're designing a customer experience that those three lenses come into play, right?

[00:15:10] Designer Peter: Definitely. 

[00:15:11] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:15:12] Designer Peter: Definitely. And we, and just, yeah, maybe, I don't know if this is disagreeing with you or just adding to it, but and we have talked about it in at least one other episode where actually, delivering good customer experience can actually be lower cost than delivering, bad or average customer experiences.

[00:15:30] Designer Peter: I think I've used the example of call centers before people still we haven't used call centers, but. A bad or unhelpful customer experience. It means that he will phone up a call center to, let's say you've had a bad experience online, you can't get your question answered online, so you'll phone up a call center.

[00:15:47] Designer Peter: Phoning up a call center is more expensive for the business than having your query. Than getting it 

[00:15:53] Dr Dani: right in the first place. Getting it right the 

[00:15:54] Designer Peter: first time, yeah, exactly. Funnily enough, having, something done right in the first place is a good [00:16:00] experience. Yeah. The better customer experience, good customer experience can actually be and is often lower cost to serve than the bad customer experience.

[00:16:11] Dr Dani: Where this loses the plot is that to get customer experience there is more of an upfront cost. But if you do it right long term, it is lower cost. 

[00:16:25] Designer Peter: That's right. All right. In systems thinking or this a systems thinker, I admire John Seddon, but Firebrand, but he talks about the cost as in the flow.

[00:16:35] Designer Peter: So the end to end, the cost is in the end to end, let's call it experience or the end to end journey. The cost is, we make the mistake often organisations make the mistake of looking at the cost just in single transactions. And that's where here we can lose the or be blinkered to thinking we can't spend.

[00:16:53] Designer Peter: All that money up front because, just a big, a lot of money. We don't realize that spending a little bit more [00:17:00] upfront means that we'll spend a lot less in the long tail of serving that customer. 

[00:17:04] Dr Dani: Yeah. So to, for you, to your example, if your customer experience is really great, Then over time, the need, the demand on your contact center is going to drop, which is a cost savings,

[00:17:18] Dr Dani: so that's a very tangible experience. I mentioned this in the intro, another reason why CX is becoming more and more important is, so I mentioned some time ago companies could gain a competitive advantage by outsourcing and slimming down their operations, right?

[00:17:38] Dr Dani: So I started my career towards the end of outsourcing when they were actually starting to, or offshoring, and they were starting to bring things back because they were realizing actually this is not a competitive advantage. Or automation. Was a way that you could gain a competitive advantage.

[00:17:54] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:17:55] Dr Dani: But then what happened is, everybody was offshoring, everybody was getting into the tech to help [00:18:00] automate things. , then it went to, technology's gonna be the next great. Competitive advantage. And then what happened, everybody started using it. So it's not, so if everybody's using it, then it's no longer competitive advantage.

[00:18:13] Dr Dani: So where does that leave for you to go? And the only unique thing, and even in products, right? Depending on the industry you're working in, there's not too many things that you can differentiate. If you think about a car basics functions of a car, like I need a seatbelt, I need an airbag.

[00:18:31] Dr Dani: It needs to sit four people or maybe six people . There's only so many variations and so many ways that you can really make something quote unquote unique, but where you could really do things differently and stand out is CX. 

[00:18:46] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:18:47] Dr Dani: Yeah. All of those factors are really driving the importance of CX.

[00:18:52] Dr Dani: The other thing, it used to be that when you used to go buy something, you were limited to the stores that were in your immediate geography, or [00:19:00] maybe, I think catalog shopping was a thing at some point.

[00:19:03] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:19:04] Dr Dani: But you are very limited to the number of options you have. Then come along the internet and now the options of buying something or even, a service, it's almost infinite. What's happening now is most people now make purchasing decisions based on Social media and recommendations from friends and family.

[00:19:32] Dr Dani: And we do this if you think about actually you and I have had conversations around this with stuff we're buying for our homes, right? Oh, where did you go? How was that experience? Oh, which one did you get? How was that experience? Do you like that product? So we're entering this space where companies no longer have.

[00:19:54] Dr Dani: Control over Brand and the messaging that potential [00:20:00] customers are getting because they're getting it from a different source that they have no control over X company that I bought x product from has no control over what i'm saying and now i've got This platform or multiple platforms that I can go on and talk about the crappy service I got from you 

[00:20:18] Designer Peter: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Designer Peter: Yeah. Or the product that broke after a week, or is difficult to use, or yeah. The balance of power for a long time now has shifted from organizations, from businesses to their customers, to consumers. 

[00:20:32] Dr Dani: The balance of power has shifted. I don't know that organizations actually understand that, or the full extent of that.

[00:20:40] Dr Dani: No. 

[00:20:40] Designer Peter: I think there's still quite a lot of, nile going on for organizations that have been around for quite a long time. I think that's one of the difference, going off on a bit, a tangent, but one of the differences between startups and and established businesses is that startups start with that with that frame of mind, with that frame of reference that.[00:21:00] 

[00:21:00] Designer Peter: Our customers know or can know everything they need to know about us and can compare our products and our prices with anyone else's. Yeah. Yes, I totally, it's one of the reasons that I agree with you that customer experience is one of the few areas left for differentiation and, coming Wikipedia definition when it talked about culture.

[00:21:21] Designer Peter: It's really difficult to, it's easy to replicate a digital product, or relatively easy to replicate it and innovate, copy somebody else's, innovate it, turn it into your own product. What is a lot more difficult is to replicate specific customer experiences because, whether they are, digital only or physical like human to human or a combination of the both, all of that depends on.

[00:21:46] Designer Peter: And one of the things it depends on is your company culture we're delving into another, but and specifically it can, it depends on employee experience to deliver. So it's a far more difficult and challenging to copy that than anything [00:22:00] else. So 

[00:22:01] Dr Dani: CX a well done customer experience.

[00:22:07] Dr Dani: Affects the bottom line. So I think it has a huge amount to do with profitability. It has a lot customer retention, loyalty, and also growth. The reasons that we talked about that now your customers are becoming your salespeople, right? 

[00:22:23] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Dr Dani: This was a really good, I really recommend.

[00:22:26] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:22:28] Dr Dani: Yeah. Yeah, those are the top of mind. This is why CX is important. 

[00:22:34] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. I will always, if somebody's, see a Facebook post on the local Facebook group, need somebody to install a cat flap, cat door, I'm straight in there. Use this person. 

[00:22:46] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:22:47] Designer Peter: Okay. 

[00:22:49] Dr Dani: All right. 

[00:22:50] Designer Peter: Where are we? Let's let's go. Let's get into the Forest clearing. Let's sit down and go, where do we get to?

[00:22:55] Dr Dani: So we've defined what CX is, we've [00:23:00] talked about why it's important, and so we usually do what, why, and how.

[00:23:06] Designer Peter: I'm sorry, I'm chuckling because the how is The how is not not a single episode, is it? But 

[00:23:12] Dr Dani: we'll do the summary version. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also good context to provide actually that while we're going to talk about the how in a single episode, creating customer experience.

[00:23:26] Dr Dani: It takes time. It's not a. Half a day exercise. And also it's, so you might create the initial CX, but it is something that evolves over time. Because your strategy might change, your customer base might change, the market might shift. We tend to think about CX being a specific part of an organization.

[00:23:49] Dr Dani: It's not. CX is linked to everything else that's happening. And if it's not then it's not effective. You're not doing it right. It's not. It's not. 

[00:23:57] Designer Peter: Yeah, exactly. And like I said, [00:24:00] it evolves and in response to all the other factors you mentioned and it needs to be maintained, maybe nurtured is the word that comes to mind.

[00:24:09] Designer Peter: It needs to be paid attention to. It needs to continue to be, in the middle of an organization's decision making. If we want to deliver great customer experiences or. Customer experience excellence or when in customer experience, it's not something you do in a quarter, in one quarter and move on to the next thing.

[00:24:27] Designer Peter: The next quarter needs to be continually top of mind. Yeah, and top of mind and also front of the conversation and part of the decision making. In fact, I would argue needs to be the kind of the start and end of decision making. Maybe if you want to be successful in it. Maybe to narrow our conversation just a little bit is of course, we're the talk about design thinking.

[00:24:50] Designer Peter: So it's like, what, how do we start on this delivering customer experience excellence and what part can design thinking play in that or does design [00:25:00] thinking play in that? 

[00:25:01] Dr Dani: I like that. I because I use design thinking and lots of things, naturally, it's 

[00:25:07] Dr Dani: This is what we do 

[00:25:09] Designer Peter: everywhere. The answer to how can design thinking or where it can everywhere and all of it. But I am 

[00:25:15] Dr Dani: aware that while it's everywhere for me, it might not be everywhere for everybody else. Yeah. Okay. So the first place to start with CX is understanding.

[00:25:28] Dr Dani: Yeah. And it's understanding what is the organization trying to accomplish, and so this comes back to strategy, goals, priorities, understanding all of those things. And then understand, Oh, and understanding the competitive landscape that the organization is competing in. So you understand the context, the landscape, the organizational outcomes that they're after, the strategy that they're using to go after those goals, [00:26:00] and then understanding the customer.

[00:26:04] Dr Dani: And here I'm using a very broad term of customer to mean people that. Are buying from you right now have bought from you in the past and people that will buy it from you in the future. 

[00:26:17] Designer Peter: Yeah

[00:26:18] Dr Dani: This is where design thinking is helpful, right? Because we've got a lot of frameworks and a lot of techniques for understanding our customers. Empathy interviews is a big one that we use focus groups, discovery workshops empathy mapping. We use all of that to create. Personas when we go out and do the research to understand our customers, we come to the realization that actually you don't just have this one type of customers.

[00:26:46] Dr Dani: You have different types of customers. And based on that, you might create some personas about, , Some of our customers look like this and behave like this. And some of our customers and my caution there, I know that [00:27:00] personas have a bit of a bad reputation, where you get into trouble with personas, if you make them assumption based, because then they start to become about stereotypes and not actual persona.

[00:27:11] Dr Dani: So the personas have to be based on actual research you've done with your customers. 

[00:27:17] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I liked, that this overall kind of maybe lens or set of activities or just our goal is understanding, like our outcome initially is understanding and definitely of customers, of course, and it's reasonably obvious that we can, use our design thinking tool kit capability to understand customers.

[00:27:41] Designer Peter: On a much deeper level and start to understand, what problems do they have and what are their jobs that they're trying to accomplish that we can help with. But I think also, we shouldn't overlook the fact that we can use the same capabilities, toolkit methods, et cetera, to understand our own organization from within.

[00:27:58] Designer Peter: So to get really clear, help our [00:28:00] organization, get really clear. If we have lost our way a little bit, but what are we actually trying to accomplish? Empathizing with our colleagues around. What's actually important to them and collectively what is the thing that we're trying to do probably less easy to do that in terms of understanding the competitive landscape, but, I still think we can, look at our competitors through. Somewhat of a kind of empathetic lens to try and understand them and what they're 

[00:28:27] Dr Dani: doing. Absolutely. The tools and techniques for empathetic exploration isn't just limited to customers, so earlier I talked about like understanding the strategy, the outcomes.

[00:28:38] Dr Dani: So oftentimes if you're, if I've done work where we're building a CX strategy from scratch or even refreshing something, I start with talking to. Internal people, to get a sense of that. The other thing that gets missed is part of understanding is also, [00:29:00] yeah, you absolutely have to go talk to people, but before you go talk to people, I also really recommend looking at the sources of information you already have.

[00:29:09] Dr Dani: And what I mean by that is. Have you read customer reviews? Have you read complaint logs? So there's a lot of other ways to research. And you need to do that groundwork before you go talk to customers. Before you go talk to other humans, look at the artifacts that are available to you that because then you can have it one, it makes the workflow faster because you have a better understanding and you can have deeper conversations.

[00:29:39] Designer Peter: And also Before talking to your own customers or other people's customers, you can be a customer of yourself. Go and be, immerse yourself in the world of your customers, and likewise you know, a good idea to start to understand the competitive landscape, not just from, facts and figures, but actually go and experience your competitors as a customer and [00:30:00] start comparing that against your experience of your own product or service.

[00:30:06] Designer Peter: Yeah. Nice. 

[00:30:07] Dr Dani: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:08] Dr Dani: It's important that I don't want it to sound like we're saying that you need to go out there and deceive people because that, be genuine about it.

[00:30:15] Designer Peter: Yeah. Agreed. Well done, Dani. Good ethical, there. Yeah. Point. Made.

[00:30:21] Dr Dani: Okay we said the starting point of CX is understanding. 

[00:30:25] Designer Peter: Yep. 

[00:30:27] Dr Dani: Once you've gotten a good understanding of what people, and I always talk about this framework of needs, wants, and pain points, when I do that work of understanding the customer, and again, broad term of customers, understanding the organization, understanding the competitive landscape, I like to organize that information into needs, wants, and pain points.

[00:30:50] Dr Dani: Yep. Because that really gives a sense of what are we going to aim for? What are the pain points we want to [00:31:00] try to and sometimes a pain point is a pain point and there's nothing we can do about it From in terms of solving the pain point, but what we might be able to do is reduce the negative feelings around the pain point.

[00:31:13] Designer Peter: All right. Yeah 

[00:31:16] Dr Dani: Because sometimes we are limited, whether it's by regulations, it's whether it's by technology, we can't always make everything wonderful. What we can make wonderful is the feeling and the support that is surrounded by that pinpoint we can't solve for.

[00:31:32] Designer Peter: Yeah. So we're understanding then we're starting to, is it, would you describe it as defining? So we're understanding. Customers ourselves, competitors, then I think I would describe it as we're starting to move into. Okay, so that helps us define what. As you said, what kind of experience we actually want to focus on.

[00:31:54] Designer Peter: Giving our customers, 

[00:31:55] Dr Dani: There's a step before that. 

[00:31:56] Designer Peter: Okay. 

[00:31:57] Dr Dani: Because you have to actually map [00:32:00] out. And, we call this the customer journey. Okay. You have to map out what that is once you understand the needs wants and pain points You've have to map those to Where in the journey are those showing up?

[00:32:15] Dr Dani: And sometimes they might show up in multiple parts of the journey. Sometimes they're isolated to one But a really important part of good cx is understanding the end to end journey and this is You This is probably the most massive shift that 21st century for organizations because before CX became a thing, organizations tended to work in very functional structures where you had sales was its own it was its own siloed thing.

[00:32:50] Dr Dani: Marketing was its own siloed things. Operators. So organizations just operated in very siloed ways and there wasn't a clear [00:33:00] understanding sales knew their bit, marketing knew their bit, production or operations knew their bit, but there wasn't an actual understanding of what is this like for our customers?

[00:33:11] Dr Dani: And this has been a fundamental shift in organizations and actually thinking about let's. Let's not organize ourselves around what works for us. Let's organize ourselves around how do we deliver for our customers? 

[00:33:27] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:33:29] Dr Dani: It's important to recognize part of the reasons organizations fail at CX is they try to keep the old structure and then layer CX on top of it and it doesn't work.

[00:33:40] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:33:42] Dr Dani: Because, if the people on the sales side don't understand and care about the end to end experience, it's going to have a knock on effect on all the other parts of the journey. And we've all had that experience where the sales team was amazing. They promised us all kinds of [00:34:00] things and we signed up.

[00:34:01] Dr Dani: And then when we became customers, It was a totally different, what we got sold and what we're experiencing was not the same. Yeah. 

[00:34:10] Designer Peter: Yeah. So I think maybe that's another to sit alongside understanding, then mapping and then defining another one is, once you're starting to understand and map and define, then actually the best way to do it.

[00:34:22] Designer Peter: Probably the most difficult step is, or in my experience in reasonably sized organizations, is actually organizing or, in most cases, reorganizing yourself around the customer. Or, I think customer experiences are a direct reflection of a company's internal structure and culture, etc. Just like you're describing there, And yeah, maybe where most organizations fail to deliver a cohesive, consistent, experience across all of their touch points and all over their product and services, [00:35:00] because they haven't quite. Fully organize themselves around those customers. Some organizations will. Yeah, they'll organize themselves or struck themselves or say value streams. Which is, in my mind, like a good first step.

[00:35:15] Designer Peter: But even better than organizing our own value streams is actually organizing around customer needs and wants or customer experiences or customer journeys. Yeah, so that's a big challenge, isn't it? So organizing around, especially because it's reorganizing around that. And also,

[00:35:35] Designer Peter: the bottom layer, if you like, the foundations of most organizations these days is technology, it's software. And that in itself, drives the technology starts to play a big part in the structure on how the organization is organized. Yeah, that's why it's important to start to make the connection and map out, [00:36:00] like you said, you map out the journey, you map out the customer experience, you map out the employee experience, you map out the business processes, the departments that are involved in activating those processes, and you map out the architecture of the technology that actually makes those processes possible.

[00:36:16] Designer Peter: And or not possible. And I think a key step is to map all those things in the same place so that everybody can start to understand and literally see the connection between, what system is capable of doing or is not doing all the way through those different layers to ultimately whether somebody walks out of your store with a smile on their face or not.

[00:36:36] Dr Dani: So just to respond to a couple of things you said, there's one right way to organize yourself to enable a good CX. There are some better ways than not. Generally a functional organization doesn't enable good CX, so you need to have something else. But again, context matters.

[00:36:54] Dr Dani: So you have to be very deliberate about, okay, we have to organize in a [00:37:00] way that enables really good CX, but what does that mean for us as an organization? Cause it'll be different depending on the size of the organization, the type. How the organization creates value. So as a product, as a service, so all of these things come into play.

[00:37:14] Dr Dani: But it's the, but the point is you've got to be very deliberate about, if we say we are going to be, if CX is important to us and we are going to center around that, then you have to be very purposeful about how you organize to enable that. And that could look very differently for different organizations.

[00:37:32] Dr Dani: I think we're in agreement with that. 

[00:37:34] Designer Peter: , and also a really important point you just made there, that we'll probably make again and maybe have already, which is, you have to be really specific and deliberate and just choose, it's a choice about which particular experiences or moments that you focus on making The best that you can.

[00:37:52] Designer Peter: And then I think for me, the best organizations do their best to make sure that any other moment or experience or [00:38:00] interaction is, I'd describe it as just not shit, just okay. It's almost forgettable in its mundanity. It achieves the functional objective, but doesn't need to be delightful in any way.

[00:38:13] Dr Dani: Yes. 

[00:38:14] Designer Peter: But it doesn't, it shouldn't be memorable for the wrong reasons, it shouldn't be memorable because it was, took more time than it should have done or irritated you in some way. 

[00:38:23] Dr Dani: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:38:25] Designer Peter: And there's a the good old Heath Brothers, Chip and Dan Heath have a great I have a great book around some of this called The Power of Moments, and in it they talk about a story or a hotel, a motel actually, I think.

[00:38:35] Designer Peter: There you go, that's the one. Dani's holding up, you can correct the details if you need to. I think the motel is in Los Angeles, it's generally The 

[00:38:43] Dr Dani: ice cream 

[00:38:44] Designer Peter: farm? It's, yeah, it's a pretty average motel, but their standout customer experience that they have obviously invested in is having a special phone by the side of the swimming pool in the motel, and if you pick it up you can order a I think it's an ice pop or [00:39:00] something and have The ice pop, the ice lolly, ice cream delivered to you by poolside by, I think I might be elaborating here, by a butler in a uniform on a silver platter with the dome over the top.

[00:39:14] Designer Peter: So a completely and utterly memorable VIP experience in what is otherwise a pretty average motel, but guess what? People talk about it, they love it. 

[00:39:23] Dr Dani: We're talking about it. It's a book. 

[00:39:25] Designer Peter: We're, and they go back to they go back to the motel repeatedly, specifically because of that one experience.

[00:39:31] Designer Peter: Everything else is, good enough. Yeah. Average. So I think that's a really great example of not needing to, and maybe it's a good story to dissipate any fears in. Mostly senior leadership or exec when we start talking about customer experience and they start to, you can see their minds going to spreadsheet mode and think, Oh, my God, customer experience is going to cost us so much money to improve our customer experience.

[00:39:56] Designer Peter: Whereas actually, no, if you do your understanding mapping and [00:40:00] defining well, then you can actually identify. That magic intersection of what's desirable to customers will make a difference to their experience, will help them stay your customers. And there's also Feasible from a technology point of view and affordable, viable from a commercial point of view and just work, choose one or two of those and then work on making everything else just acceptable.

[00:40:22] Dr Dani: This is where the journey mapping work is really important because once you've mapped that end to end journey, and what I encourage is you map the journey, you map the needs, wants and pain points, and then you could think about what are the moments that actually matter? Yeah, yeah. All the moments matter. But the reality is you're never going to have enough funding time and resources and energy to, to do all the things. So if you could identify. In our customer journey, these are the moments that really matter. And these are the spaces that we really want to stand out.

[00:40:58] Dr Dani: This is what we want to be [00:41:00] known for, so the hotel you mentioned, we want to be known for this amazing poolside service that you get. Yeah. And they could have chosen anything. They could have chosen. We wanna be the hotel known for the most comfortable bed. Yeah. We, there's so many things that you can choose, but, and this is where understanding the market, and if you read that book, you understand why they went for that.

[00:41:23] Dr Dani: Because the way that hotel is located, it's a very competitive market. You're not going to be short on your pick of hotels. So this is also where you have to understand your competitive landscape to really know where is that place that we really want to stand out?

[00:41:39] Dr Dani: What is the thing that we're going to dial up so well and we're going to be known for? And that's the thing we're going to focus on. Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Designer Peter: Yes, it's a great story, great example, and it brings to life a lot of the things we're talking about. I don't work in that motel or run that motel, but I think if it's a standalone, independent [00:42:00] motel, their ability to execute on that is going to be a lot.

[00:42:05] Designer Peter: Yeah. greater than I think than a chain of motels, for example, who, if let's say it was, I don't know, Best Western or something, and they want to become known for something, and they choose this moment, then they have the additional complexity of Scaling that as a repeatable, consistent experience across all of their motels.

[00:42:28] Dr Dani: I actually disagree with that. 

[00:42:30] Designer Peter: Okay, good. We've got a bit of first time in a while. 

[00:42:32] Dr Dani: Ah, duh. We 

[00:42:33] Designer Peter: need a disagreement bell. Ding ding. You may 

[00:42:36] Dr Dani: not have guessed this about me. Okay. But I am a hotel snob. 

[00:42:43] Designer Peter: Ah, okay. I would never have guessed that.

[00:42:46] Dr Dani: I, Marriott is a brand that I stay with and I have stayed with around the world when I travel. And one of the reasons is the consistency of their beds. 

[00:42:56] Designer Peter: Yes. 

[00:42:57] Dr Dani: Every, any Marriott you go [00:43:00] into, and it doesn't, they've got different tiers of, like beds. The three star tier, right up to the luxury. And regardless of where in the world you stay at a Marriott and what level you stay at their beds and their bed sheets are very, you expect it. It's there. I know I'm going to get a good sleep. I know it's clean. So you can drive consistent customer experience.

[00:43:26] Dr Dani: But again, this was a choice, right? So this was a choice to go, you know what, we're going to invest in this great bedding and it's going to be the thing that, so it's the thing that we are going to drive consistency on. So again, they could pick anything. They could have picked the carpet. They could have put whatever, but I think being really deliberate about if we are a large business that is all around the world.

[00:43:48] Dr Dani: What are the places that we could really focus on CX that, and maybe the decision, I don't know what the decision making around that was, but what is the CX that we could deliver that we can control at [00:44:00] scale? 

[00:44:00] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yes. Yes. So I think you disagreed, but I wasn't to. to disagree with your disagreement.

[00:44:07] Designer Peter: I wasn't saying that you couldn't do it. I was saying to scale up is much, is more challenging than delivering a one off thing in a one off 

[00:44:14] Dr Dani: situation. I think that's where you've got to be deliberate in choices. Deliberate. 

[00:44:18] Designer Peter: And I think, be, yeah, considered and, Marriott obviously have, done their research and realized that actually most Marriott customers are Or, they'll be targeting customers who are traveling for business, for example, and actually probably travel quite far.

[00:44:35] Designer Peter: So maybe they're checking into the hotel, and actually one of the most important things they understand about staying in a hotel for a business customer, especially, but for any customer, I imagine, is actually having a comfortable night's sleep. And a key ingredient to a comfortable night's sleep is a comfortable bed.

[00:44:49] Designer Peter: Maybe delving into that in a little bit more. I think maybe this is a bias coming through, but I imagine that it's more in fact, I think, and from my own experience, it's much [00:45:00] easier not absolutely easy, but relatively easier to replicate an experience that is a physical product by itself, like the comfort level of a bed, for example, versus a service that involves human beings.

[00:45:16] Designer Peter: Only because beds are easier to control than and, you don't need to train the beds to be comfortable, do you? Whereas you need to train a person to deliver a delightful ice cream delivery experience. And not only do you need to train them, but you also need to have the culture that supports their ongoing enthusiasm for delivering ice creams to customers by the side of a swimming pool.

[00:45:40] Dr Dani: Yeah, but I also, as you were saying that, a couple of examples came to mind for me. 

[00:45:49] Designer Peter: Oh yeah, cool. 

[00:45:50] Dr Dani: I think Apple stores are a good example of that because I've been to an Apple store, coming from the U. S. I've been to multiple Apple stores around the U. [00:46:00] S., very consistent experience. Yeah. I've been to the Apple store in Sydney and a couple of other countries very consistent experience what I really think they've mastered is consistent experience, but also Localized elements.

[00:46:17] Designer Peter: Yep. 

[00:46:18] Dr Dani: Disney has done a really good job of this consistent experiences, but also localized experiences. There's a level of customer service that you get that is consistent, but then there are experiences that are unique to the location. 

[00:46:31] Designer Peter: Yes. Yeah. You think of yourself as disagreeing with me. I actually think you're agreeing and adding to what, because what you're saying there is Apple.

[00:46:38] Designer Peter: And maybe they're the. The second most valuable company in the world at the moment behind NVIDIA for a long time. They were, I think they were the first trillion dollar business in the world and what you've just highlighted is that they invest significantly in customer experience and that whether that's in their devices, their software, [00:47:00] their stores.

[00:47:03] Designer Peter: It's not an accident that they are One of the most valuable companies in the world. 

[00:47:08] Dr Dani: It's not an accident that I've been an Apple customer since I was in middle school.

[00:47:13] Designer Peter: There you go. Okay. 

[00:47:14] Dr Dani: So we've been talking about the how, which starts with understanding it's then then distilling the understanding down into needs, wants and pain points, mapping out the end to end customer journey, then making sure that your organization is organized in a way that will enable CX to flow across the entire journey.

[00:47:35] Dr Dani: We haven't deliberately said this, but we touched on it, which is around the importance of once you design your CX, it's not a one and done. It's something that you might have this big initial, this is the CX, but then there is this ongoing iteration.

[00:47:50] Dr Dani: And that iteration is based on feedback loops, we've got to create ways that our customers can tell us what's working, what's not. 

[00:47:58] Dr Dani: This could be surveys. This [00:48:00] could be, I think most organizations use surveys, which is great. But if you're a retailer, if you are in a business where customers physically interact with you, that's a great opportunity.

[00:48:11] Dr Dani: I often encourage retailers, their CX team should be going out to stores and, Chatting with customers. I've told banks, this is something they should do. So anywhere, if you are in an industry where your customers are physically interacting with your business, your CX people, and actually really all your people in some form should have some interactions with customers where possible and appropriate, of course.

[00:48:37] Dr Dani: Because those feedback loops is what's going to cue to you, hey, this is a new pain point, something that's happening that we need to now, figure out, is this something we want to respond to? Is this something we're going to watch? Because that's the other thing, you don't necessarily want to respond to every Cause sometimes somebody's just going to be upset and they're going to be upset and that's okay.

[00:48:57] Dr Dani: Like that, you can't, it [00:49:00] won't ever be perfect for everybody. So it's this continuous monitoring and listening and hearing and thinking about does, is a change needed here? Do we need to look at this? Do we need to delve into this? So feedback loops is a big part of the how. 

[00:49:15] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:49:16] Dr Dani: And you also touched on this, but I'll I'll be very clear about it.

[00:49:21] Dr Dani: And that is technology is the enabler, not the driver. 

[00:49:27] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:49:28] Dr Dani: Yep. And oftentimes because organizations end up spending so much money on tech, or they have a lot of technical debt, they end up making everything about the tech and then the tech leads the company, 

[00:49:42] Designer Peter: but 

[00:49:42] Dr Dani: technology is an enabler.

[00:49:44] Dr Dani: It's a tool. It's not. It's not a strategy. It's not a competitive advantage. It's a tool to help you get to a competitive advantage. So really thinking about how do we leverage technology to deliver a better customer service? And this is where, I've talked in [00:50:00] the past about digital first human, when it matters, thinking about those things, what things can we use technology for, but what things do we really need a human to intervene here?

[00:50:10] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice. Yeah, that's like we hinted at the beginning a couple of times, this is a big subject, but we've made a good start on it.

[00:50:19] Dr Dani: There's actually one more that I feel like we do a complete this service, if we don't mention. 

[00:50:24] Designer Peter: Okay. I was just going to ask you what's the, what are the big things that we've missed before we get into our capabilities and how we can use them across these different stages. But what's the big thing?

[00:50:34] Dr Dani: You are never going to drive good customer experience if you don't have excellent employee experience. 

[00:50:43] Designer Peter: Yes. 

[00:50:45] Dr Dani: So employee experience is just like customer experience, in terms of understanding your employees, mapping out their journey because employees have a journey just like customers do understanding where the pain points are and really creating a [00:51:00] good workplace.

[00:51:01] Dr Dani: Because guess what? If your people come into work every day and they're unhappy or they hate their jobs. They're not going to deliver good customer service, unhappy people aren't going to be able to go out there and make other people happy. I'll keep that one really short and sweet, but to the point if you are invested in CX, you've got to invest in EX because you can't deliver CX without people and if those people aren't happy and feel valued and cared for and safe, they're not going to deliver the CX.

[00:51:33] Designer Peter: Absolutely. Yeah, completely wholeheartedly agree. And actually, my thinking on it has evolved to the point where, if we're mapping customer experience, then. We must also at the same time be mapping employee experience. They can't be shouldn't be shouldn't be looked at separately.

[00:51:47] Designer Peter: Yes. Yeah. Yeah maybe we'll definitely have another, a different episode on specifically employee experience, I think. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for thanks for that catch, that, that [00:52:00] big That's a big point to make, a nice one to start to wrap things up on, actually. I think you usually ask me this, but I'll ask you first around our design thinker capabilities.

[00:52:11] Designer Peter: Where do these, where can these apply in this in this big opportunity of customer experience? 

[00:52:17] Dr Dani: We talk about this and they're all important and they all apply everywhere, but there's four that really come to mind for me here. Obviously empathetic exploration, because the understanding part was big in this, you can't create CX about the, without the empathizing, so that top of mind for me.

[00:52:35] Dr Dani: The other one is visual communication. Because it is very powerful when you map out the journey and you map out the pain points and needs and I've actually seen this where we've done that and then teams have said, Oh, there's a really easy fix for that. I didn't even know that was a problem.

[00:52:52] Dr Dani: And you really start to see momentum and making things better when you have made this visual. The other one is [00:53:00] collective collaboration. 

[00:53:01] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:53:02] Dr Dani: You cannot deliver good CX. In siloed ways of working. So really, and I am, the more I talk about collaboration, I'm getting very deliberate about saying this because I feel in the current climate of things, we tend to believe there's, there is this very misguided belief that.

[00:53:22] Dr Dani: Physical proximity is a requirement for collaboration. It's not, I've worked with some global teams that are spread out all over the place and they do some amazing collaboration. And this is why I actually talk about it in terms of collective collaboration, because it is a very deliberate thing of working with people and finding ways to work with people.

[00:53:45] Dr Dani: So it's not a physical proximity thing. 

[00:53:47] Designer Peter: Yeah, I can agree completely with that. And it's requires building of that capability and is not dependent on.

[00:53:54] Designer Peter: Yeah. Sitting next to somebody or even being in the same room or the same country as somebody, for [00:54:00] sure. Yes. Yeah. And I've seen 

[00:54:02] Dr Dani: plenty of examples where people are in the same room but not collaborating, oh yeah. Yeah. 

[00:54:09] Designer Peter: And was there another one, Dani? Yeah, the 

[00:54:11] Dr Dani: last one is Curious experimentation.

[00:54:14] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:54:15] Dr Dani: Because the thing is that sometimes you don't know what is going to solve a pain point or deliver a need until you try a few things out. And sometimes those trying things out can feel very scary. So if you go into it with it, with a curious experiment or mindset and go, look, we're going to try this, we'll monitor it.

[00:54:34] Dr Dani: And this is where feedback loops are really important. We'll try it for 30 days. See if it makes a difference. Ask our customers if it makes a difference, right? And if it doesn't, say, look, we've tried this. We've heard you. It's not helping. We're going to stop doing it. 

[00:54:48] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:51] Designer Peter: Now, actually, curious experimentation was one I was going to bring up around, especially around that idea of organizing around the customer because that reorganizing [00:55:00] your whole company can obviously be Huge effort. But, instead of doing that, narrow things down and choose an experience or maybe a moment that matters to your customers and reorganize a small part of your organization around that and design that reorganize the team or teams, create a cross functional team to design it, deliver it and continue with that learning cycle by monitoring what's happening with both your team member and customer experience and your business outcomes.

[00:55:29] Designer Peter: Are they, set up your experiment in a curious way to understand whether those outcomes are being exceeded, met or not? So yeah, I think it's one that we can fall into a trap in an organization to go we need to change the whole thing at once versus actually let's do small things and see what difference it makes.

[00:55:47] Designer Peter: There's a lot of 

[00:55:47] Dr Dani: power in small things to make big changes. And we talked about this in the BANI episode. 

[00:55:52] Dr Dani: That to get big outcomes, you don't always need to do big things. Sometimes it's a collection of small tweaks and changes that deliver outcomes. [00:56:00] 

[00:56:00] Designer Peter: Yes. Mountains of treasure.

[00:56:03] Designer Peter: And then the final one of, we always come back to, but that's the situation optimizing, isn't it? I think as design thinkers, we need to come back to And that belief that by designing and delivering customer experiences, it will make a difference to, everything we've talked about to customers lives that's important to me anyway, making a difference to customers life, making a positive impact and just as important, if not more important to me is making a difference to the.

[00:56:26] Designer Peter: Employees lives imagine having a satisfying, enjoyable job where you have. A good experience day in day out and of course to the business bottom line. All good. So we can do it. 

[00:56:39] Dr Dani: We can do 

[00:56:40] Designer Peter: it. Now 

[00:56:41] Dr Dani: I feel bad. We've left Idea Generation out there on its own.

[00:56:44] Designer Peter: Idea, oh, Idea Generation, come back in.

[00:56:48] Designer Peter: We didn't mean to leave you out, of course, it goes without saying. You can't, how on earth did that motel come up with the idea to deliver an ice cream in a, [00:57:00] from a butler by the side of the pool. 

[00:57:02] Dr Dani: And I bet when that idea, when somebody said, Hey, how about this? It was probably thought of Oh my God, that's such a crazy, stupid idea.

[00:57:09] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was like a throwaway silly idea to get to a serious idea. Yeah. And, but no. 

[00:57:16] Dr Dani: And this is why it's important to capture even the silly throwaway ideas because you just never know. You never know. Love it. Awesome. 

[00:57:25] Designer Peter: Takeaways. What was it? Yeah, a couple of reminders for me. One was not just being your own customer to begin with, but actually going and being the customer of your competitors to understand what that's really feel, and maybe taking that a step further, combining you and your colleagues could, we and our colleagues could get together and do that with a bit of Re planning and come back and map it all out.

[00:57:50] Designer Peter: So that's one and then just this idea again of can prototype different forms of an organisation. And maybe, that's the combination for me of [00:58:00] curious experimentation and collective collaboration. Yeah, how about you? Takeaway for you. 

[00:58:03] Dr Dani: I've got two. One is I've been trying to decide what am I going to read next.

[00:58:09] Dr Dani: And I think I'm going to go re read Power of Moments. Nice. And actually I know, very epic. The other one that Now that I've been thinking about it is how we organize ourselves as an organization and how does that enable CX that has sparked some thinking in my brain.

[00:58:27] Dr Dani: Also an idea, I it might be cool to do an episode on EX, so employee experience, and I think it'd be really cool to do an episode on organizational design. 

[00:58:40] Designer Peter: Oh yeah. 

[00:58:40] Dr Dani: For CX yeah. 

[00:58:43] Designer Peter: Oh, I like that. 

[00:58:44] Designer Peter: Cool. 

[00:58:45] Dr Dani: Those are my takeaways. Nice, 

[00:58:46] Designer Peter: Dani.

[00:58:47] Designer Peter: I like it. Thanks for the conversation, that was, 

[00:58:49] Dr Dani: this was awesome. 

[00:58:50] Designer Peter: It was great. Nice to have a bit of disagreement, I think, in there somewhere. 

[00:58:54] Dr Dani: Yeah. I don't mind battling out ideas. It's 

[00:58:58] Designer Peter: good to change our minds. 

[00:58:59] Dr Dani: [00:59:00] It is. Awesome. Thanks for listening, everyone. 

[00:59:06] Designer Peter: Thanks, everyone. See you next time. 

[00:59:08] Dr Dani: See you next time.

[00:59:09] Dr Dani: Bye, Pete. 

Thanks, 

Dani.