Ep#37: Why your customer experience will fail if you ignore EX

We often focus on creating a seamless customer experience (CX), but what happens when we ignore employee experience (EX)? In this episode, Dr. Dani and Designer Peter dive into the often-overlooked connection between EX and CX, exploring why great customer experiences depend on happy, engaged employees.

In this episode, you will:
• understand the direct relationship between employee experience and customer satisfaction
• learn why neglecting EX leads to higher turnover, lower productivity, and poor CX outcomes
• discover practical ways to improve EX and elevate your overall business performance

Transcript

[00:00:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hey Peter.

[00:00:01] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hello, Dani.

[00:00:02] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: How are you?

[00:00:02] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I'm great, thanks. How are you?

[00:00:04] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I am good. What are we talking about today?

[00:00:09] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Today, Dani, I am excited to talk about employee experience.

[00:00:15] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Nice. Employee experience. This is part of the three episodes that we've been doing on experience, customer experience, and now employee experience.

[00:00:28] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: definitely. It absolutely is. The employee and customer experience, they, we've talked about them in separate episodes, but in actual fact, they can be separated, they are inherently, linked.

[00:00:37] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And in my view,

[00:00:40] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm. Mm

[00:00:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Employee experience trumps customer experience because

[00:00:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm.

[00:00:48] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: you cannot get good customer experience without great employee experience

[00:00:54] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I will, join you on that soapbox, Dani. I completely agree with you. I think it's, absolutely fundamental, , [00:01:00] and yet perhaps not that. I'm not sure how many people, agree with us or running organizations fully agree with us, but yeah, I completely agree. You cannot deliver a great customer experience without employees who are having a great cost, great employee experiences.

[00:01:14] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:01:18] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I don't know how many people agree with us I think on the surface when I say that I can see people nodding their head However, when I go into organizations to do actual work, I don't see the head nodding translate into action. The focus on customer experience has a stronger hold, but nobody actually thinks about, okay, well, to enable customer experience, we actually need an employee experience.

[00:01:53] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, the gap between knowing and doing around customer experience and organizations is, getting smaller and smaller [00:02:00] and more widespread. , but, the gap between the knowing doing gap and employee experience is still, uh, pretty substantial in, in Canada. In most places. Yeah.

[00:02:09] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And I've got some thoughts around that, but not, we won't get to that yet. So,

[00:02:13] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:14] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: our normal routine is, we'd start with the definition.

[00:02:20] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:02:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So, how do you define employee experience, Peter?

[00:02:25] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Well, , Couple of things. Firstly, I guess maybe paying attention to the word employee Maybe, expanding that slightly is someone who's working like it's because an employee experience could be anyone from the owner operator of a business, through to the person who works for them, on their factory line or in their call center or in their design agency or in their retail store and everyone in between everyone who is. That's almost anyone who's working [00:03:00] is having an experience. And then the other thing that comes to mind is, for me, or the definition, I suppose, of experience is, for me, employee experience covers everything in, that person's journey with an organization. Which begins much like the customer experience begins before. You become a customer that the employee experience that you have with an employer with an organization begins before I think begins before you, are an employee. You could call it, or it might be helpful to call it the journey. So the journey starts when you first encounter the idea of this organization, whether that's in a job advert or as a customer of theirs. And the journey continues through. Applying for a job, going through their recruitment experience, getting a job, getting on boarded and actually doing your work, which I'll come back to in a second. And then maybe there'll come a time when, you part ways and you leave the [00:04:00] organization and, , you, you become, an alumnus of theirs. That's the equivalent of, buy a product, use a product, and then you're no longer using a product in the customer journey. The reason I'm dwelling into it and going into it, I think some people's definition of employee experience is at that level. My definition of employee experience is at that kind of journey level, but also, and probably more importantly, is in the day to day experience.

[00:04:26] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: So what is it I am doing for a job? What is the environment that I'm working in? What is the culture like? What tools do I have to do my job? All of that for me is included and a really important part of the employee experience. And just like we can map moments that matter for a customer experience, we can map moments that matter for an employee experience.

[00:04:49] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: We could, I'm going to stop there because, I'm going to ask you what your definition of an employee experience is.

[00:04:56] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I'm going to start with responding to some, a couple, one thing that you said.

[00:04:59] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: [00:05:00] Yeah.

[00:05:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I'm also seeing the phrase people experience being used,

[00:05:05] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah. Okay.

[00:05:06] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: right? The definition of employee is also changing a little bit.

[00:05:10] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because now people come into organizations, so you might be a fixed term employee, so it's known you're going to come in for a specific period of time.

[00:05:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Then you have, contractors or contingent workers coming into organizations where, you know, if there is a big program of work being stood up like a project. Rather than hiring full time and increasing your operational cost, you bring in, , contractors to help those peak periods that you know are going to go away.

[00:05:42] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:05:43] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: But they also need to have an experience, right? So they're not employees in the legal definition of, of that contractual obligation of an employee employer, but they do come into your organization. They interact with the people there. They use the systems. They use the resources. so [00:06:00] you also have to consider them.

[00:06:01] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because of these types of things, 

[00:06:03] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That definition of employee is now being expanded to people experience.

[00:06:09] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: mm-Hmm.

[00:06:09] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: The other thing I'll respond to that you said is you think about it as the big journey, but also the everyday moments. Absolutely. And this goes back to something I said in a previous episode, this idea of micro and macro,

[00:06:22] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: The micro is the things that happen the day to day. And the macro is the, , it's the overall journey. It's the big moments. But the thing is that big moments are big because they don't happen every day.

[00:06:36] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:06:37] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And the little moments are little because they're the constant day to day things that happen but when you think about it from an experience perspective, the day to day ends up mattering more because it's much more frequent.

[00:06:50] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:53] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Now, coming back to your original question, what, how do I define, EX or PX? [00:07:00] It's my definition of that. It's basically all of the interactions that an employee has with their organization. And it starts from the recruitment all the way to exit. So everything, recruitment, onboarding, getting into your role, the daily work, development opportunities, performance conversations, how am I being developed for the next thing, am I being promoted, all of those things, what benefits am I getting, how is my organization supporting me when, when my mom's sick and I have to take time off or, , my family's growing, I've, we've had some children, 

[00:07:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: how is this organization meeting the needs of my life moments?

[00:07:48] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yes, and I think you included this, but just to be clear, you also think of it as the, the job that I'm actually being asked to do and how I'm being, enabled to do that job in the best [00:08:00] possible way that I can. 

[00:08:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, absolutely. I brushed over it, but it's very important to touch on. It's the day to day, right? And it starts from recruitment, from that moment on, if you're recruiting somebody, let's say you're recruiting somebody into an accountant role.

[00:08:17] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm hmm.

[00:08:18] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: the job description been written in a way that. attracts the type of employee that you want. It's going to speak to me as an accountant.

[00:08:27] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: When we have the interview, is it really clear to me? This job is about these things. This is what I'm expected to do. And in return, these are the things that I can expect from you as an employer.

[00:08:39] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And then when I show up on day one, do I have the equipment I need? Do I, get introduced to the people I need to be able to work with? If I, if my equipment doesn't work, is there somebody to help me? All of those things are part of employee experience.

[00:08:56] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah, nice. We're pretty [00:09:00] much, aligned on, on that then. We've got a good, handle on what we mean by employee.

[00:09:04] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Maybe we'll start calling it people experience actually, just because I think that's a broader, more helpful, word, than, than employee. Although to, to share what that triggers in my mind is I wonder in the future AI, workers, we'll need to design experiences for them. Or whether they design their own.

[00:09:25] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Anyway, we'll let that one go for now. 

[00:09:27] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Question to ask ChatGP too.

[00:09:29] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yes, I bet it would be actually, it would be fascinating to see what responds and what prompt we can get to get a really good answer. What's next then? So we've got our, what's the definition for that?

[00:09:43] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They only talk about why it's important.

[00:09:46] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Why it's important. Yeah. And, in particular, because we've made a bold statement at the top of the podcast that it is vital to customer experience. So why is it people experience important? And why does it matter to customer [00:10:00] experience?

[00:10:02] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I want to answer this with a story if that's okay.

[00:10:06] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Please love a good story. 

[00:10:08] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Chatting with a friend of mine and she was sharing with me, her and her husband, they've been working really hard, it's been a tough year and they decided to book themselves a little mini getaway, right? And so they did.

[00:10:26] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They booked this beautiful place out in the middle of nowhere, a resorty type lodge thing

[00:10:32] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: and

[00:10:33] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm. Mm

[00:10:34] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They looked at what the website said and it just felt like some place that they were going to go and be taken care of and they just felt oh my god, this is just what we need. We need a couple of days that we can go.

[00:10:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Somebody else could worry about the cooking and the cleaning and we're just going to hang out. It's going to be this great experience. And so they arrive it's beautiful like all the furnishings like you can and she's like you could really tell that they put a lot of [00:11:00] effort into the design of everything the thoughtfulness everything and they go in and they're getting this hem haw welcome

[00:11:10] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm,

[00:11:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Then they had to ask somebody if they can help them with their bags, and they do it,

[00:11:16] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They go upstairs and they find, well, the room isn't exactly cleaned up.

[00:11:23] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Oh dear, okay.

[00:11:24] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So they call, and they get somebody in to come in and, do the cleaning up. And it's okay, like it gets done, but there's all these things that happen throughout their stay that

[00:11:38] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: just isn't missing the mark or they just felt 

[00:11:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: What they thought they were going to get and the experience that was sold to them and what was being delivered on site.

[00:11:49] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It just felt, it felt mismatched.

[00:11:52] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm.

[00:11:54] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And then it's just so happened that they come back from this weekend getaway and they find out [00:12:00] actually these employees are now on the strike.

[00:12:03] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Oh, oh wow, okay.

[00:12:05] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: This is a good example of why CX matters.

[00:12:10] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because you can design the most amazing customer experience,

[00:12:16] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: but if the people on the ground aren't feeling it.

[00:12:20] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:12:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And they don't feel, one, the people have to be connected to the CX, so for your employees to deliver the customer experience, they have to feel connected to the thing that they're trying to deliver.

[00:12:33] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm hmm.

[00:12:34] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: But they also have to feel like they're being looked after.

[00:12:39] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So it's really hard to deliver, and this is particularly true if you're in a service industry, if you're in hospitality, it's really hard for you to do a good job and deliver a good experience if you're , well, I get treated like crap around here, I'm underpaid, I'm overworked, I've worked, 18 shifts and haven't had a break.

[00:12:59] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:01] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That whole thing starts to fall apart. And I don't think it's because people don't, and to some degree it might be that, you've got some people that just don't care that come in just to collect a paycheck.

[00:13:11] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:13:12] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: But generally People want to feel like, they do a good job.

[00:13:15] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: People come to work to do a good job. They want to feel like they're contributing to something. But if people start to feel like, I give everything to this job and it's not giving me anything. And in this particular example, , I give everything to this job and they're not even paying me a living wage.

[00:13:32] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:13:33] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Then, this is where it starts to fall apart.

[00:13:37] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep. So I love your story. cause it brings to life, quite a few things. One of them is, , in a hotel you could design, and we have talked about hotels a couple of times, you can design the physical environment, with, every last luxury, , that your chosen pillow, , the right, the right mattress, , et cetera. duvet for a great night's [00:14:00] sleep, you can design the lobby to look, incredible and feel very welcoming and, bring to life your, your brand, whatever that may be, whether it's warm and cozy or, modern and dynamic, , you can do all of that. If you've got the budget you can, cause physical objects are pretty easy to create and, and produce and put into a space

[00:14:23] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm. Yeah.

[00:14:27] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: don't have the people in your hospitality environment who, , feel like they can create hospitality, then it's the, all of that physical stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, as it turns out, those people aren't being given a living wage. Most people, will probably try and, act, and do their best, like you were saying, but most people are not actors, so they will not be able to hide, uh, for too long, for too many people, the fact that they are not happy, , at work, and, the people that will, that message will be [00:15:00] communicated to is the, is your customers.

[00:15:02] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yes, similar. Anyone who's called up a call center, I think you can tell almost inherently, the call centers that have, pretty good employee experiences versus the ones who don't because the ones who do, you can just tell by the tone of voice and the language that the people are using is that they're actually pretty content and they're therefore happy to try and help you. The ones that aren't, you can definitely tell.

[00:15:26] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I know that I led this with the hospitality experience, but this shows up in every, like you said, contact center, most businesses have contact centers and as a, as an, as a customer, absolutely. You can tell when, when it's just not a good environment.

[00:15:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Um, and you can tell when it is.

[00:15:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It also shows up, Any, any business that has where there is an interaction between an employee and a customer, this is relevant.

[00:15:57] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:15:59] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I also think [00:16:00] though it's relevant even when, even for those people that aren't directly facing customers.

[00:16:07] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say that.

[00:16:09] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:16:09] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because the customer experience, whether it's a service and experience like we've just described, getting help over the phone or going to a hotel, or even, , if it's a product, if it's something that, , you're physically using, that's been, that's had some sort of, well, everything around us has been designed and manufactured and made. , Humans have had a hand in it somewhere. So, we'd all agree that happier humans create better things. If you've experienced or bought a product and it's fallen apart, it's likely that somewhere in the, in the production chain or design chain, there's been people who aren't particularly happy or proud of their, , of their work.

[00:16:50] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: And yeah, significant, contributing factor to that is the experience they're having. Um, as part of the organization.

[00:16:58] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So creativity, [00:17:00] change, problem solving, all of these things are directly correlated with employee experience. And like you said, if you show up to work every day and you're unhappy and you feel like you're being treated bad,

[00:17:12] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:17:12] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That's not a mood, or an environment for creativity or innovation.

[00:17:18] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Or, , probably not even taking pride in your job as a kind of base level starting point. Or wanting to, do better at your job. To improve, , your own personal performance. Or, spend any energy trying to improve. The way that your job works or the how you work with other people. Yeah, none of that, happens unless you're, you're at least content, or satisfied, to, be doing that, work in, in that organization. 

[00:17:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: One of the reasons this is important is that you cannot deliver A customer experience without, it's a two for one ratio. Your employee experience has to be twice as good to be able to deliver [00:18:00] a customer experience. That's good.

[00:18:02] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Wow, that's interesting. Does it, does that mean that by definition your customer experience is only ever going to be half as good as your employee experience?

[00:18:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I think so.

[00:18:12] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: wow, okay, that's, that says something doesn't it?

[00:18:15] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hmm.

[00:18:16] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Okay, so important, very important. Um,

[00:18:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: In that way, EX has a direct correlation to, to revenue.

[00:18:27] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:18:28] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: A couple of other reasons, to think about. So one is around, , retention,

[00:18:34] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: mm

[00:18:34] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: right? People that are happy and feel taken care of by their organizations don't leave. And. That's something that gets overlooked a lot is that turnover is expensive.

 Turnovers expensive because when somebody leaves, then, you need to, it sounds obvious, doesn't it? But you need to get somebody to replace them. And that involves, expense[00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So I 

[00:19:00] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: beginning to end. 

[00:19:01] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I think the statistic is something around for every employee that leaves, it costs twice as much to replace them.

[00:19:09] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Wow.

[00:19:10] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: what that means is if that employee's salary was 50, 000, it's going to cost you 100, 000 to replace them.

[00:19:23] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Okay, so yeah, so now we're getting into the actual numbers and actual impact. In the same way that in customer experience, one of the measures we can use to help us understand customer experience and all models are broken and the one I'm about to talk about is, not controversial, but it's not perfect either.

[00:19:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: NPS, so Net Promoter Score. So when we use it and we ask customers, and everyone's probably quite tired now of, getting text or email surveys asking how likely we are to recommend, the business that we've [00:20:00] just bought something from or using, and we'll say between 0 and 10. If you score, so the research suggests that if you score 9 or 10, then you are actually likely to recommend something to somebody. And if you score, lower down the scale from zero up to five or six, then you're actually likely to, the closer to zero, you're more and more likely to actively, , not recommend or recommend that somebody doesn't do what you've just done. The same thing can be applied to if the question is asked in the right way, the same thing can be applied to employee experience. And as you mentioned retention, well, if I've not had a great experience and I leave an organization. If I'm somewhere down the zero to three or four scale, I'll likely tell people don't go and work there because it's not a good place versus the opposite. If, it's a nine or a 10, then I will say to people, Hey, come on, come and join this organization or go and work there.

[00:20:53] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I had to leave for some unfortunate reason that was, I moved house or something, but, um, you definitely go and work [00:21:00] there. Yeah, there's this idea of, yeah, the, not just the cost of retaining somebody if they leave, but the cost of somebody leaving and not being happy and, actually making it more and more difficult for you to, recruit people into any role.

[00:21:13] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: On NPS, most organizations that do engagement, employee engagement surveys do use what we call E NPS.

[00:21:21] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep,

[00:21:22] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It's basically NPS, but, you're asking your employees, how likely are you to recommend them as an employer? So that is something that lots of organizations track.

[00:21:32] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So here's what happens, right? We all work at places and we all have friends and family and we all get together and we talk about our workplaces. We do. And when things are bad, we talk about it. When things are good, we talk about it, which means that every conversation that we have in those social settings, people are getting an impression about what your workplace is like.

[00:21:56] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, yeah. Yep.

[00:21:58] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And [00:22:00] Those are also going to inform future , employees.

[00:22:04] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Definitely.

[00:22:08] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So, and it has a similar effect to customer experience, right? We talked about how when a customer has a bad experience, they now have a platform that they can go share their bad experiences with.

[00:22:22] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Conversely, when they have a good experience, they have a platform that they can go talk about the great experience they had.

[00:22:30] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It's very similar to employees most of us won't go bash our employers on social media, but people do it in other ways.

[00:22:40] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hm. Yep. Yeah,

[00:22:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And you have things like Glassdoor where you can leave reviews about employers. What tends to happen more is those bad employer reviews happen in more informal, less documented ways.

[00:22:55] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They happen through stories that we tell people about what it's like to work somewhere.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, things like Glassdoor. com and other more visible, sources are probably just the tip of the iceberg, if this sort of stuff happens. Okay. Like you say, indivisibly hidden, sorry, you say, yeah. Retention and , recommendation or detraction.

[00:23:17] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. That's definitely an important part of employee experience. The se every, I think everything is secondary to being important to customer experience, but , what are the other, why else is employee or people experience? Why else is it?

[00:23:31] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Is it important?

[00:23:32] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah, the other reason that it's important, and we touched on this already, is around in, engagement and performance,

[00:23:40] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: We talk a lot about, lack of productivity. We talk a lot about, engagement. Engaged employees perform better than disengaged employees.

[00:23:51] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: If you're disengaged, you're just doing enough to not get 

[00:23:55] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: mm, mm hmm. 

[00:23:56] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Whereas engaged employees are the ones that are [00:24:00] solving the problems that want to be innovative, that are thinking about how can I add value? How can I add more value? What can I bring? They're the ones that are thinking about the ideas, thinking about the continuous improvement.

[00:24:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So when you lose that engagement, You're just getting enough that you don't have a reason to fire them.

[00:24:18] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:19] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And when we get enough employees sitting in an organization that are doing enough not to get fired, and then we go, why is productivity dropping?

[00:24:28] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:24:28] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And by the way, there's other reasons that productivity isn't happening. It's not all employee experience, but it is a factor.

 It's a big factor. As you've just described, engagement. Actual engagement. Means that I, if I'm actually engaged, I want to, I choose to, do more, a lot more than just enough to get fired. And I'm actually not just, working in my job. I'm working on my job.

[00:24:54] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I'm like looking at ways to make my job work better and do [00:25:00] better. Yeah. Okay. So we've got, , engagement and performance. We've got, , retention and recommendation, and then we've got, , of course, the actual customer experience.

[00:25:10] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep. So the three reasons why EX or PX is important. You can't deliver a great customer experience without an excellent employee experience, , retention and attraction and engagement and performance.

[00:25:29] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Nice. Okay, we're next 

[00:25:34] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So we've done the what, we've done the why, now we move to the how.

[00:25:38] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah, that's the easy bit.

[00:25:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I don't know that it's easy. It's easy to talk about.

[00:25:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: sarcastic or facetious there, Dani. It's the opposite of easy, I think. I mean, yeah.

[00:25:54] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Well, it's easy to say we're going to design an employee experience.

[00:25:59] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: [00:26:00] Mhm.

[00:26:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: The hard part is how do you bring that employee experience to life?

[00:26:05] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:26:06] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It's a similar challenge to CX. It's,

[00:26:09] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: comparatively, designing the customer experience is easier than delivering it.

[00:26:17] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mhm. Definitely. I think it is really almost identical. It's almost the mirror image of the customer experience. And that with a customer experience, to deliver one, you need to orchestrate all the parts of the organization in service of that customer experience. , And with the people experience, you need to do the same thing.

[00:26:39] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: You need to orchestrate. It's maybe slightly different things, and it's turning the idea in or the organization in towards itself, but you need to orchestrate so many different things for, a good or great people experience. And maybe teams that are less directly involved in delivering. , great customer experiences actually start to become [00:27:00] more directly involved in delivering great people experiences. And the one obviously that comes to mind is the people or HR team. Obviously, there's an indirect relationship between all the work that our people teams do and customer experience, but there is a very direct relationship between what people and HR teams do and our employee experience. First of all, at that kind of journey or workplace level, you could describe it as so everything from recruitment to onboarding to, , performance management, all the way through to leaving the organization and staying in touch with it. but also, , you can tell this is the area that I'm really passionate about, is , the actual work that people do, the design of the jobs that we give people to do in organizations. The people team has a direct influence on that, job descriptions or are a starting point. So yes, other teams need to be involved, in the orchestration. It's not just a. A people or HR team's job to design and deliver, employ or people [00:28:00] experiences. It's lots of other teams as well.

[00:28:02] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: This idea of macro and micro, right? At an enterprise or an organizational level, you can think about EX as, okay, what is the experience from start to finish? What's the experience when we're out recruiting? What is the experience? Are people waiting 20 days to, hear back about their application?

[00:28:22] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: If it is a no, are we going back and telling people, thank you, but no. So there's, there's all those things that are at the high level. Which I would call your macro employee experience or your macro people experience.

[00:28:39] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And once that has been ironed out, or , this kind of needs to happen simultaneously, then the next level of that is the day to day,

[00:28:51] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: mm-Hmm.

[00:28:52] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And it does come down to job design, but anybody who's ever had a job at any company knows that what your [00:29:00] job description says and what you actually do are not the same thing.

[00:29:06] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:07] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Um so it's so much about the things like job description, because, , we could go down a whole big rabbit hole around how do we design the job, job architecture, all of those things.

[00:29:20] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:29:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: don't personally think that is going to be what brings the, employee experience to life. I do think role clarity is important. Whatever role you're in, if I am a, if I work in marketing at a company, I need to understand, okay, what are the boundaries in my role?

[00:29:40] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: What am I accountable for? What am I responsible for? What am I contributing to? And conversely know, What am I not responsible for? What am I not accountable for? What do I not need to contribute to? Because without those things, then you show up every day and you can't be productive, because you're floundering all over the [00:30:00] place.

[00:30:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So that is part of employee experience. But what happens is we get so bogged down we go down such a minute level, we don't actually go right. What are the basic things we need to create a good experience?

[00:30:14] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Sounds like you've had more direct experience of actually doing that and getting into that detail and getting, , being involved in some of that, bogged down versus my kind of, outside, if only, Kind of curiosity or utopian, view on that. , but yeah, I think, , keeping things simple and going, right, what's this role?

[00:30:27] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: What's the clarity? What is it versus what's in it? What are the outcomes that this role is expected to let, to deliver? Where, so I think, , within this people experience and within, the day to day is also, and one of my favorite kind of, Ways to look at things is, , I think it comes from, or I came across it in Daniel Pink's book, Drive. , and he talks about ingredients of a satisfying job, our purpose, mastery and autonomy. So where do you think that fits into, experience in the day to day?

[00:30:59] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: And I think [00:31:00] you could some people also add in the fourth one around psychological safety. The way I read it originally in drive by Daniel Pink was, does the job have a purpose in other words, is it meaningful, is the work I do and its outputs and outcomes meaningful to me? Mastery, so does this job provide an opportunity to get better and better at something?

[00:31:22] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: And autonomy, is do I, am I able to make decisions? 

[00:31:25] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: How do I think about, mastery, autonomy, purpose and safety?

[00:31:31] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah, 

[00:31:31] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: purpose is important. It's one of the key drivers of engagement. People want to feel connected to a purpose.

[00:31:41] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm. Mm.

[00:31:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And that's part of the reason that, , people join an organization because they want to be part of something. And yeah, okay. Most people, most of us have jobs because we need to pay the mortgage or the rent and, , eat and things like that.

[00:31:57] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep. Mm,

[00:31:58] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: But if you look above that, so [00:32:00] if you go, okay, so we work because we need to earn a living.

[00:32:03] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Great. I have all these options of places I can go work at. I am choosing to work. I am choosing to sign an employment contract with X company because, and it's that because, right? It's that I want to feel like I'm connected to something. I want to contribute to something. So purpose is a key driver of engagement.

[00:32:25] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: If I don't feel like what I'm doing every day has a purpose, then that's when I start to disengage. I'm just gonna go, I'm just gonna show up, I'm gonna do the things that I need to do so that I don't get fired, and then I'm gonna go home.

[00:32:38] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.

[00:32:40] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mastery is about developing your craft. And that's also important, , particularly for high performers. all organizations want high performers, but they're not willing to pay for or put in the work for 

[00:32:56] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:32:57] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Leading high performance is a lot of [00:33:00] work because , they want to be connected to purpose.

[00:33:01] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: They want to develop and improve. They want to be given bigger and better opportunities. They want to be coached and mentored. So yes, we all want high performers, but those high performers come with a cost. And you as the employer need to be able to create the environment and provide the support and services so that you have the right to have high performance.

[00:33:23] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm.

[00:33:24] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So mastery is. Again, very important to engagement. This is where development opportunities, growth opportunities, you've probably heard that, , people will often say I'm moving jobs because , I want a different opportunity. I want some development opportunity. 

[00:33:40] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And that's what, that's really what mastery is about. Am I given the scope, the space, and the support to really develop my craft? So we've talked about purpose, we've talked about mastery, safety, is really, yeah, it's about the physically safe environment.

[00:33:53] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: We don't want to show up to somewhere with shoddy construction and the, Roof is leaking and the toilets don't. [00:34:00] So there's that, the hygiene factors of like my work environment is safe, but there's also the psychological safety, things like, am I being bullied? Is it safe to speak up if something is wrong?

[00:34:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Can I give my manager feedback, if they've done something that I don't agree with, , if a decision's made and I don't agree with this, do I feel safe to speak up?

[00:34:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Um, if I feel like we're breaking a law, do I feel safe to speak up? So that's the safety element of it. The safety factor is table stakes,

[00:34:29] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:30] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That's like the bare bones minimum. These are things, , as an employee, I expect to get paid and I expect to, to feel safe.

[00:34:38] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yep. Yep.

[00:34:40] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Autonomy is, I saved autonomy for last because it is tied to a big hot topic at the moment that you cannot go on to. News or LinkedIn or social media without this coming in.

[00:34:54] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So autonomy is about control. What sort of decision making autonomy do I have [00:35:00] within the scope of my role?

[00:35:01] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: It also has to do with, and this is where this is becoming more and more prevalent, is around choice of where and when I work,

[00:35:09] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: There is a battle happening at the moment between return to office and flexible working and hybrid working and remote working and where do we stand? And apparently we all have to be in the same room to, to collaborate. So autonomy at the moment is becoming a big issue because people are feeling like, They are being mandated and told you have to work here for this amount of time.

[00:35:36] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That's really starting to tarnish a lot of employee experience and a lot of goodwill that companies have earned from employee experience.

[00:35:45] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm.

 Have I answered your question?

[00:35:48] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I think you have, yeah. I think you've definitely brought to life, purpose, mastery, autonomy, and safety, what parts they play in, and, people in our experience working for an organization, definitely. And I [00:36:00] do like the, point you made that safety in particular, that's a hygiene factor, a table stakes is, , it's non negotiable.

[00:36:06] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: It's not that the rest aren't, , essential, it's just the degrees to which. A particular job has those elements of purpose, mastery and autonomy. So, yeah, thanks for exploring that me, Dani. I like that.

[00:36:25] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So I think in terms of what makes a good employee experience, it's, purpose, mastery, autonomy.

[00:36:32] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm hmm.

[00:36:33] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And then the thing that I will highlight around that is, the statistics around this, it's data around this, is the relationship , that you have with your people leader.

[00:36:44] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: People leader.

[00:36:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: is,

[00:36:46] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:36:46] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: so your manager, your people leader,

[00:36:48] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: , different organizations call it different things, but essentially the person that you report into that, the relationship that you have with that person, manager, people leader.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Line manager, supervisor, it goes by many names.

[00:37:04] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: , but the person that you report into at work, the relationship you have with that person is a key driver in employee experience. And we see this in lots of data that, , it's one of, it is the number one reason people change jobs.

[00:37:20] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hmm.

[00:37:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: , I saw on a couple of social media sites the other day, actually I've been seeing it now for a while, that your manager has more impact on your mental well being than your therapist.

[00:37:37] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I don't know if you've seen that, but there's lots of truth to that,

[00:37:41] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:37:42] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: right?

[00:37:43] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: hm. Mm hm. Mm

[00:37:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: From my own experience, I have worked for some fantastic leaders and I've worked for some crap leaders and I can tell you that my mental wellbeing, my ability to perform my job, even [00:38:00] as a high performer, my ability to do my job, if I am working for somebody that is.

[00:38:06] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Not a good leader is diminished, right? And eventually would lead to me leaving. So in addition to thinking about, are we providing people opportunities to master their craft? Are we giving them the appropriate level of autonomy?

[00:38:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Are we helping them understand the purpose of their job and how it contributes to the purpose of the organization?

[00:38:26] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: In addition to that, being purposeful about leadership.

[00:38:29] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:38:30] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Are our leaders equipped and are they doing the things that they need to do to make sure that people in our organization are having a good experience? 

[00:38:39] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, totally agree with that. And I, and one of the reasons I think that I bring up Purpose, Mastery, Autonomy is as a leader, those are the, and the safety thing, those are the four things that , there's actually a fifth perspective that I bring to it, but I'm always going, are those things, those four things in a healthy state for that particular person in that particular job, that the fifth thing that relates to purpose and well, mastery [00:39:00] and autonomy, actually all of them is this idea of, making progress in meaningful work,

[00:39:05] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Which again relates to, performance and, , and, mental health, Yeah, that whole idea from Theresa Amabile about, the progress principle.

[00:39:12] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, as a people leader is, the suggestion that we have more impact on someone's mental health and their therapist, if they have one, and also simultaneously That we could be the number one reason that somebody changes job or leaves an organization.

[00:39:26] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Those are two things to pay very close attention to, aren't they? Is it humbling? It's humbling in some way, but, brings into sharp focus, , how much you should pay attention to that role, which is, important. For most people and part of their job, I think more and more organizations see people leadership as not a job in itself, a role in itself, which I think is a mistake, but just part of somebody's job.

[00:39:50] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because as well as being somebody's people leader, you are yourself having an experience as an employee, to balance. And, but yeah, those, that people need to roll it up for me [00:40:00] anyway, is the most important thing for the reasons we've just described. Right.

[00:40:03] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: We forget, leadership roles have a lot of ego tied up in it

[00:40:08] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hmm.

[00:40:08] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: and we forget that leadership a responsibility. It's an obligation and it's a responsibility. You are being given the responsibility of leading people. And with that comes some things you have to do,

[00:40:25] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I've had conversations with some leaders that have said things to , I don't have time to talk to my people. And I want to say to those things, then maybe you shouldn't be in a people leader role.

[00:40:39] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:40] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. 

[00:40:43] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because your number one responsibility as a people leader is to show up for your people. Yeah. And I get that lots of, I don't know that there's many or many people leadership roles where you don't have other responsibilities,

[00:40:54] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: but your number one responsibility is to lead people. This comes back to like, how [00:41:00] do you prioritize and make time for that?

[00:41:02] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:02] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: in terms of, EX, we've talked about mastery, autonomy, purpose, leadership, and I think you were cutting to talking about progress.

[00:41:14] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Progress. Yep.

[00:41:15] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So progress is an interesting one and it ties into my research,

[00:41:19] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: um, around this concept of stuck, right? Organizations are stuck

[00:41:26] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:27] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: and how do we get them unstuck?

[00:41:29] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:30] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And what I'm finding is, when we don't make progress on a task, and that feeling of perpetually stuck and nothing is moving, it leads to disengagement. Because it starts to feel like, every day I show up, I try, but nothing happens.

[00:41:52] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:53] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And, that leads to disengagement. So then I get to the point, well, why am I trying so hard?[00:42:00] 

[00:42:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Maybe I need to look somewhere else. And the idea of, progress isn't, because people want to be productive. Like you want to get, you know, that feeling when you get to the end of a day and you feel like, oh man, , I've done some things that feeling when you finish some things, you tick some things off your list.

[00:42:21] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: There's a feel good feeling, and I particularly like that feeling on a Friday afternoon where you're like, man, I've,

[00:42:28] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah,

[00:42:29] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: did this, I did this, I accomplished this, like there is a feeling. And it's not like I'm looking for medals or accolades here, but it's just that satisfaction of in my job, I get to come here and I get to do things that add value and look at what I've done and now I can go have a good weekend.

[00:42:47] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That is a really, that is really important to, the concept of EX because we all want to feel like that. That's why, most of us care. Because we want to feel that way.

[00:42:58] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. We want to feel like, [00:43:00] we've spent our, that particular eight hours on planet earth in a way that's, satisfying and is making a difference. Definitely, okay, , so progress, what else? There's so much.

[00:43:09] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: there is so much, but I think from an EX perspective, where this idea of progress and what we need to think about is, as an organization, are we enabling people to make progress? So this is where things like organizational structure, reporting line, decision making autonomy comes into place.

[00:43:28] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because If every time I get ready to go do something, I don't have the autonomy to just go do it, and I have to ask permission for every little step, then that hinders my ability to make progress, because, here's the thing, I have to go get permission, but my leader isn't, or the person I'm getting permission from, isn't available for two days, so I can't do something for two days.

[00:43:50] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So, this is where, autonomy and decision making becomes really important. Because if those things, and I think this goes back to your [00:44:00] point earlier about job design. Because if you're not mindful about how you've structured jobs and how you structure , the organization, it starts to intrude on autonomy.

[00:44:13] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And then that starts to intrude on progress. So these things are very interconnected. Yes.

[00:44:22] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: and that makes me think that actually, much well, it's orchestration, isn't it, the word that comes to mind, but, employee or people experience is a result of a system, isn't it? It's not, it's not It's not like a one off, what do they say in, customer and marketing speak, like an activation.

[00:44:36] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: It's not like a one off event that gets your attention or makes you feel good. It's a continuous, bringing together and delivery of and therefore experience of all these different, factors.

[00:44:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Which is why I facetiously said this is the easy bit. It's not at all, is it? But you start, you need to start with awareness and then develop an intent and then start to. Look at each of these things, , both individually and , how they connect to each [00:45:00] other,

[00:45:00] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: I also want to point out most of the things we've talked about here are very unsexy things,

[00:45:05] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: huh? Yeah. Okay.

[00:45:07] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: right? They're the nitty gritty things that we just have to get right. Like we have to put focus and energy into it, but they're not necessarily the things that are going to win us awards. So they're not the red carpet things.

[00:45:19] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: What I see happening is organizations will say, okay, we're going to focus on and it becomes a marketing campaign. You need the marketing campaign to bring awareness of what's happening, but you can't lead EX with a marketing campaign. It can't be the glossy, shiny things. You've got to get, and In the customer experience episode, we talked about you have to get the basics right before you think about how are we going to elevate our customer experience?

[00:45:46] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: You have to think about are we actually meeting the basic expectations

[00:45:51] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: and employee experience works the same way. Before you start creating the glossy things that go on the website and the videos where people are talking [00:46:00] about, , how great it is to work here. 

[00:46:02] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: You actually have to create the experience that it is great to work here.

[00:46:06] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah. Yeah. Make the thing so you can tell a story. Don't tell a story and then have to make a thing.

[00:46:11] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah.

[00:46:13] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Because if you do all these things right, the story's gonna tell itself, right?

[00:46:17] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, absolutely. You have to do the creative design bits to show, , this is what it's like to work here. Yeah. But the enabler of that isn't the pretty shiny packs, ,

[00:46:29] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: it's actually the things that we're talking about.

[00:46:32] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: that's right. Design is not just the way it looks. Design of anything is not full stop the way it looks, or it's not just the way it looks. Design is about, , the system and how it works. And part of that is how it looks.

[00:46:44] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Part, undoubtedly, because that's part of, , your interaction.

[00:46:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: And, the same, applies to people experience and the design of people experience, anything you want to add in?

[00:46:54] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: There is one thing I want to talk about because in the early days of creating an [00:47:00] employee experience, being mindful that all experiences created by interaction. So from an employee experience perspective, that's the interaction you have with your team manager, with your peers, , a group of people come into an organization and they talk, they meet, they run into each other, , they jump on zoom together.

[00:47:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: All those interactions, , create the experience, which means that. This is where values, but not values again, pretty pictures on the wall, values in the sense of how are we behaving? So the behavioral values and setting those expectations of working in this organization, we expect you to behave in these types of ways.

[00:47:52] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: That becomes really important to delivering because the thing is that if you haven't defined the behaviors, then you can't hold people [00:48:00] accountable when they don't behave in those ways.

[00:48:02] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: yeah, yeah,

[00:48:05] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So if they're not defined, they're not held accountable. Then it becomes really hard to deliver consistent experience because you can't hold people accountable.

[00:48:13] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Hmm.

[00:48:18] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, nice. I actually had culture and environment as two other factors, but I think, values and, particularly behavioral values, probably Trump, those two are a part of those two, but, actually, yeah, nice addition. Yeah.

[00:48:36] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: So we've done what, why, how, and we usually do design thinking capabilities. 

[00:48:44] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Is it cheating to say all of them?

[00:48:45] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: well, they all apply all the time.

[00:48:48] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: However, just thinking about what, which ones apply the most empathetic

[00:48:58] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: And this one, the reason I [00:49:00] say that this one's applicable in so many different ways, because obviously you've got to understand your people. It also applies because for you to show empathy to customers, you have to like empathy is one of those things that you have to feel to be able to deliver.

[00:49:15] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not working for an organization that, , you feel empathy, from or that there is a great deal of empathy being experienced, then it's unlikely that you will, exhibit, that, any empathy towards your, customers. Yeah. Okay.

[00:49:32] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah. Any of that pop up for you?

[00:49:34] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Situational optimizing, especially as a people leader, but then as somebody who of having, An employee experience day in day out, then I think situation optimizing, adopting that capability and putting it to good uses is really powerful. As with any aspect of life, there's good and bad. And maybe that's worth just dwelling on or just pausing there to note that experience, it's not always going to be [00:50:00] exceptionally delightful or add in your, positive, kind of buzzword there. Sometimes that way, unavoidably, , Not good. But if we apply some situation optimising we can, , we can turn it into something helpful for not just us but also the organisation that we're part of. Yeah,

[00:50:20] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: out that employee experience doesn't mean that you don't have the difficult conversations if somebody needs to be dismissed, that needs to happen. And, that doesn't mean that's a bad employee experience, but there are things that you can do.

[00:50:33] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Do to optimize as you're getting to here.

[00:50:37] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Um, you don't have to be a jerk about it is basically, yeah.

[00:50:42] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah,

[00:50:43] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Okay. What is your takeaway today?

[00:50:46] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Oh, takeaway. The whole idea of values, and especially behavioral values, what triggered in my mind was this idea of, what you walk past is what you accept. If you see a behavior and , it's not something you think [00:51:00] fits in with your, the organization's values, but you don't do anything about it, then that becomes the organization's behavioral values over time.

[00:51:07] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: I'll take that away from this conversation, Dani. Thank you. How about you. 

[00:51:10] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Nice. it's the four things that you raised. Mastery, autonomy, purpose, safety, and progress. Because they're not the sexy things, but they're the, grounding foundational things of 

[00:51:23] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: creating good EX.

[00:51:24] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Good EX. And therefore, good CX.

[00:51:27] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Bringing it full circle to our opening, point of view.

[00:51:31] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yes.

[00:51:32] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Dani. I'm glad to hear something I brought you're going to take it away. So thanks for a good chat.

[00:51:39] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: This has been a great chat. Yes. Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:51:44] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Yeah, thanks for listening. Hope you got something from that. We

[00:51:47] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: certainly did. 

[00:51:48] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: to you next time.

[00:51:49] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: See you soon. 

[00:51:50] peter_1_09-06-2024_104459: Bye everyone. 

[00:51:51] dr-dani-_1_09-06-2024_104459: See you soon. Bye.