Ep#39: Power of the Pause: Why Taking a Break Matters

In a world that glorifies busyness, breaks are dismissed as unimportant and a barrier to productivity. However, this isn't actually the case. In this episode, Dr. Dani and Designer Peter discuss the often overlooked but essential practice of pausing. They explore the power of micro, mini, and mighty pauses and discuss how intentional breaks can increase productivity, creativity, and mental clarity. 

In this episode, you will:
• learn about three types of pauses the micro, the mini, and the mighty 
• understand how breaks can increase your brain's capacity to problem-solve 
• discover practical ways to incorporate pauses into your daily routine 

Transcript

Introduction 

[00:00:00] Dr Dani: Hey, Peter. 

[00:00:01] Designer Peter: Hi, Dani. How are 

[00:00:02] Dr Dani: you? Good. How are you? 

[00:00:04] Designer Peter: I'm really well, thank you. Yes, it's great to see you. 

[00:00:07] Dr Dani: Great to see you. Welcome back. 

[00:00:09] Designer Peter: Thank you. 

[00:00:11] Dr Dani: What are we talking about today? 

Defining the Power of Pause

[00:00:13] Designer Peter: Speaking of welcoming back Dani today we're talking about the power of the pause. Why taking a break matters. 

[00:00:21] Dr Dani: Such a timely topic as well.

[00:00:24] Designer Peter: Absolutely. Absolutely. Looking forward to having a chat about it. Exploring more of the pause. I should probably get out of the way straight away that going through my mind is the old joke about the polar bear walking into the bar. 

[00:00:36] Dr Dani: I've

[00:00:45] Designer Peter: It might be, and even as I'm saying it, I'm probably going to mess it up, but it's something along the lines of a polar bear walks into a bar and the barman says how can I help you? And the polar bear says, can I have [00:01:00] a

[00:01:00] Designer Peter: pint please? And the barman says, why the big pause?

 Dani's laughing silently, everybody.

[00:01:08] Designer Peter: Anyway, now that we've got out of the way. 

[00:01:12] Dr Dani: All right, I'm glad that is out of your system. Does that qualify as a dad joke? 

[00:01:18] Designer Peter: Yeah, definitely. It's not quite right and it was terribly told and might only be amusing to a certain subsection of our listeners. 

[00:01:27] Dr Dani: This is why Peter is in design and not comedy.

[00:01:32] Designer Peter: Okay, I'll take that as feedback. So obviously that's like different definition of pause there. So should we get into what we mean by Let's get into it. Okay. 

[00:01:42] Dr Dani: So we usually start with a definition. 

[00:01:44] Designer Peter: A definition, yeah, pause, P A U S E, just for avoidance of doubt.

[00:01:50] Designer Peter: So our good old definition I've looked up as a verb pause apparently can be defined as interrupting action. Or [00:02:00] speech, briefly or to temporarily interrupt the operation of a process or device. Similarly as a noun, actually, is a temporary stop in action or speech. That looks like the the definition.

[00:02:13] Designer Peter: And yeah, it comes from ultimately it comes from Greek, from posis, which came from posin, and meant to stop. So it came, went from Greek to to Latin, Old French, Middle English, but originated with the Greek for to stop. There you go. So pausing is stopping briefly, temporarily.

[00:02:32] Dr Dani: It's the temporarily or briefly that we can dive into, if we agree that pause means to stop the timing of the pause or the length of the pause rather there's importance in that and different applications of that. How long do we pause for?

[00:02:51] Designer Peter: Yeah, definitely. And actually, I know you, I got a slip of the tongue there, the timing. I think it's the time, the duration, and [00:03:00] also the timing as in when it happens. I think those are two really important parts of an effective pause. 

Types of Pauses: Micro, Mini, and Mighty

[00:03:07] Dr Dani: When I talk about pausing there three that I talk about, micro, mini, mighty so micro pauses. Could be just a few seconds to reset or you start talking and then you're like, hang on. What's about to come out of my mouth is not going to help. And this is where just pausing taking a breath and then going back to it.

[00:03:33] Dr Dani: That is a micro pause. At least for me, because I tend to be one of those people that I've been described as not having a filter. . Okay. . So I've had to really learn how to micro pauses because sometimes not having a filter is not helpful in every situation.

[00:03:52] Dr Dani: Sometimes you just gotta say what needs to be said. Yeah. But that's not always helpful. 

[00:03:57] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:03:58] Dr Dani: So that's what a [00:04:00] micro pause looks like. 

[00:04:03] Designer Peter: Okay. So micro is a few seconds. 

[00:04:08] Designer Peter: What about like mini, how longs a mini pause?

[00:04:12] Dr Dani: So a mini pause can be something like, I'm just going to walk away for 10 minutes and go have a walk, clear my head and come back, I'm going to go make myself a coffee.

 If you want to define a duration, it's probably somewhere around 10 to 15 minutes that you're walking away from something. Whereas a micro pause is me literally just. pausing in the moment. I'm not moving. I'm not going anywhere. As a mini pause is going, I'll be right back.

[00:04:45] Dr Dani: I need to go take a walk. I need a break. So it's longer in time, but it often requires some sort of movement on your part. It may not. It may be that, you stay exactly where you are, but generally [00:05:00] A mini pause is used when you need a change in environment. 

[00:05:04] Designer Peter: Okay. Yep. 

[00:05:07] Dr Dani: And then the mighty pause that is, these are things like taking a day off, longer holiday.

[00:05:18] Dr Dani: This is truly a break from something that lasts a day or more.

[00:05:22] Designer Peter: Okay. mini, micro, and mighty.

[00:05:25] Designer Peter: Yeah, I can relate to all three of those. I, to share with the listeners, I have just come back from a mighty pause out of holiday for a few weeks from work and went overseas. Yeah, that was not surprising. A big refresh time to recharge and focus. And yeah, the mini and the micro I can relate to as well.

[00:05:46] Designer Peter: The mini I quite often. When I've got a big chunk of work to do, I'll use, the Pomodoro Technique. Have you heard of the Pomodoro Technique, 

[00:05:56] Dr Dani: Dani? So 

[00:05:57] Designer Peter: I find that really useful to, break things down [00:06:00] into small chunks and also break time down into small chunks and I kind of stick to the original way I learned the pomodoro technique is to take what you're doing and break it down into 30 minute chunks of time and those 30 minutes you set a timer for 25 minutes and do as much work as you can in that 25 minutes and then when the timer goes off you take a five minute break and do something different like how you like you're actually get up and walk around or Change your environment temporarily and then come back and then start your next 25 minute chunk.

[00:06:33] Designer Peter: So I find that really really helpful to, to get focused and to give short deadlines. And there is something kind of magical about, Not just having the break, but knowing the break is coming up and it keeps you really focused on, on time and and, sometimes you really look forward to the five minute break and sometimes you get really frustrated by the kind of artificial imposition of that pause, but whichever it's always [00:07:00] helpful.

[00:07:00] Designer Peter: Then the micro break something I've learned only the last six months actually is this idea of, when you're learning something taking frequent kind of random 10 second breaks where, you might be learning something, whether it's on a YouTube video or reading something, and by closing your eyes and for 10 seconds and doing your best to think of nothing. Maybe focus on your breath. Apparently what it does is it mimics our, some of the things that our brain do when you're sleeping. And it helps with knowledge. Consolidation. I can see Dani nodding along here like she knows all about this, but yeah, that was a revelation to me.

[00:07:39] Designer Peter: Like I've taken micro breaks in the past, maybe just like looking up from a screen to look out of a window to give your eyes a rest, but I hadn't come across this this trick. Of kind of brain resting, micro resting. 

[00:07:55] Dr Dani: I refrain from calling it a trick because 

[00:07:57] Dr Dani: it's probably more of a hack, but then what's the difference? [00:08:00] The reason I don't like to use that language is it is very science, right? Based. Yeah. 

[00:08:04] Designer Peter: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:08:05] Dr Dani: And The thing is that when the idea behind that let's say you're studying something and you get a couple of paragraphs and then you close your eyes and just focus on your breath.

[00:08:18] Dr Dani: It's giving your brain time to process and embed what you're learning, this is also why sleep is important. Because that's when your brain does the things that, because you have to understand in addition to right now we're recording this podcast, which our brain is, very engaged in, it's also working on making sure we're both breathing, making sure that, our hearts are complying, all the things that keep us alive.

[00:08:46] Dr Dani: Those little pauses when you're reading or learning something, it's giving your brain, it's like powering down your brain a little bit. So it can absorb what I'm saying this in very layman's term it gives your brain some time to [00:09:00] power down and really embed what you're learning.

[00:09:02] Dr Dani: What you're learning

[00:09:03] Designer Peter: thank you. I'll take your correction and definitely accept it. So technique rather than trick. Is technique a better word? Yeah. 

[00:09:11] Dr Dani: And, sorry, I feel like I'm being very pedantic, these things are things we have discovered through research, and it is, the more we learn about their brain.

[00:09:19] Dr Dani: So the reason I don't like to use that kind of language when we talk about things that are science based is because it feels like it gets diminished. 

[00:09:27] Designer Peter: Yeah, I'm with you on that, and thanks for the correction, and no need to apologize for being pedantic, especially in this case. Yeah, so the science, the research backed technique of the 10 second Close your eyes, micro break.

[00:09:42] Designer Peter: Yeah, I've discovered that and find it really useful.

[00:09:45] Dr Dani: And also while we're on the topic, because you mentioned this, the breath is also a really important thing. I remember when I first started doing Pilates and yoga and they'd always say, make sure you're breathing. And in my [00:10:00] head, I'm like if I wasn't, I'd be covered.

[00:10:04] Dr Dani: But as I got into these types of exercises, and even actually when I was working with a running coach they really talk about the importance of controlling your breath. And but it was something that I really struggled with. Like, why do we talk about breath so much? Why do we talk about breath so much?

[00:10:19] Dr Dani: But how you breathe and the pace of your breathing affects how you could probably notice I took a deep breath and now my pace of talking has. Yeah. But when I speed up my talking, my breath is not as, I'm taking shorter breaths because I can't talk fast and deeply at the same time, but it also signals to your nervous system.

[00:10:41] Dr Dani: There's a physical reaction in your nervous system when you take those breaths. So this is why. If you are doing public speaking and you get up on stage and you take a big breath, because, you're probably all tensed up. And then if you go up there and so going back to your polar bear maybe the polar [00:11:00] bear paused because it was really anxious.

[00:11:03] Dr Dani: Maybe the polar bear was underaged. 

[00:11:06] Designer Peter: Hadn't been in that bar before. Maybe they'd walked in the bar and the piano had stopped and everyone looked around. Who's this? It's a new bear in town. Yeah. So that, that, this is a nice meandering conversation, Dani. So that takes me to the mental image of, public speaking and taking a pause before starting to breathe and centre yourself.

[00:11:26] Designer Peter: Speaking of not just the duration of the pause, but the timing of the pause. My mind went to there's a before pause, a during pause, and perhaps an after pause if that makes sense. And, it might not be that helpful to have a mighty pause during your public speaking engagement.

[00:11:41] Designer Peter: You might not be asked back if you disappear for a couple of days, and then, but you can definitely weave in micro pauses into a during and perhaps even a mini pause and maybe each of those, as I'm thinking about my experience, each of those, like the before, the during, and the [00:12:00] after, actually serve slightly different purposes.

[00:12:03] Designer Peter: Your before pause in the public speaking engagement here is your kind of centering and preparing to speak and to engage your audience. Maybe the micropause is to conserve a couple of purposes. If you have a 10 second pause in the middle of your presentation 10 seconds might feel like a long time, but it's going to get your audience's attention back, potentially, as you've just exhibited, not just described, but help you reset your pace and your tone.

[00:12:35] Designer Peter: Maybe 10 seconds is actually too long, a couple of seconds even. And then where my mind is also going to is at the end of your presentation, the micro or maybe mini pauses for me, time for reflection. And I think that's where a lot of your learning comes in. If you pause and reflect and almost debrief yourself in that pause time, then you can understand and assess.

[00:12:59] Designer Peter: [00:13:00] whether you performed your presentation in the way that you wanted to and think about the things you would do differently. 

[00:13:06] Dr Dani: So what you're talking about here has so many applications, not just in public speaking. So definitely in public speaking situations, when you have made a point that you want to resonate with the audience, give it a minute.

[00:13:24] Dr Dani: And I say minute. colloquially, don't give it an actual minute, but pause, give it a micro pause, to let it sink in if you're trying to have an impact with one of the, and everything you say cannot have the same level of impact. Like the brain would just explode on your talk would not make any sense, but figure out what are those key things that you want people to walk away from.

[00:13:46] Dr Dani: And as you say them at the end, micro pause, To give the brain some time to process, but this also has other applications. So when you are giving feedback to [00:14:00] somebody, because oftentimes, and generally if the feedback is. Is not good. We are very anxious to give the feedback and what we tend to do is, and then we just keep talking and the person's probably sitting there confused so when we deliver something that someone may not want to hear, but needs to hear the micro pause is really important because it's making sure that person is registering what you're saying.

[00:14:30] Dr Dani: In parenting situations, I am not a parent but I've seen this happen where, a parent will give direction or ask their child to do something and there's no pausing to register have them understood. 

[00:14:46] Designer Peter: Yes. Yes. Nice reminder. I am a parent to a To a six year old and one of the things learned early on is when a one year old, a two year [00:15:00] old doesn't have the same cognitive processing speed as a, a 42 year old and therefore leaving big pauses between questions or requests or, just sentences is actually really important.

[00:15:14] Designer Peter: It was a challenging skill to learn. To remember to slow down and leave those pauses and the reminder is that actually it's still required, even though it doesn't, because you know you're engaged in a conversation with somebody who appears to be operating at the same speed, sometimes a lot quicker, but not always.

[00:15:33] Designer Peter: So yeah, pauses. 

[00:15:36] Dr Dani: So I'm probably going to ruin in child programming for you, if there's a TV show your child likes to watch or something, pay attention because you'll notice that there are lots of micro pauses in between the speakings. 

[00:15:54] Designer Peter: The speakings. I will now pay attention to that.

[00:15:58] Designer Peter: Okay. That's given me something else [00:16:00] to look at, or to look out for in Bluey. 

[00:16:03] Dr Dani: Yes. Actually, blue is a good example. Really pay attention and you'll start to notice that there is this. And then when you start to notice, I know that lots of adults struggle with watching children's shows cause it's, they like to watch it over and over again.

[00:16:17] Dr Dani: Yeah. Yeah. But now when you start noticing the pausing, it'll get even more. 

[00:16:22] Designer Peter: Okay. 

[00:16:23] Dr Dani: But that, but it's deliberate. 

[00:16:25] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. I've not heard of, I know that repetition is an element of children's programming because repetition for children's brains is really important, but thanks for, yeah, I will pay attention to the pausing.

[00:16:38] Dr Dani: Repetition by the way is just as important for adult brains, just not in the same degree as children's brains. 

[00:16:48] Designer Peter: We have to go down that, that you've mentioned it. Tell me more about that. 

[00:16:52] Dr Dani: Repetition is an important part of learning something. 

[00:16:55] Designer Peter: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:16:56] Dr Dani: Think about something you learned how to do as an adult, [00:17:00] something I am learning how to do as an adult, I am a terrible cook.

[00:17:03] Dr Dani: I'm getting better. And repetition is a real big part of this. I have a couple of things that I'm learning how to cook. Okay. And I'm sticking to a couple of things so that I can keep repeating it over and over and over again. And now I'm getting to the point that I can make one of those things almost like by habit, 

[00:17:22] Dr Dani: repetition helps build. Or the ritual. That's just as important for us. For example, when you go to exercise and the instructor goes, don't forget to breathe. And it's repetition because we need to be reminded. Oh, 

[00:17:41] Designer Peter: yeah. The learning cycles. Nice. Okay, thank you.

[00:17:47] Designer Peter: So back on to pausing. Repetition of pauses. Yes, it's helpful. So micro, what other, we talked a bit before, during, after, micro [00:18:00] pauses. Is sleep a form of pausing? Because you mentioned sleeping and the importance of sleep, which I understand.

[00:18:06] Designer Peter: And 

[00:18:10] Dr Dani: I feel like that's probably more of a philosophical question. Okay. But I will say yes. Only because I know that when we sleep, some parts of our brains are hibernating, which has, all sorts of goodness. For our bodies and minds. It is a type of pausing. I just don't recommend doing it in the context of work.

[00:18:37] Designer Peter: Okay. 

[00:18:37] Dr Dani: Let me reframe that. I am a big believer in napping. And I think one of the ways that we could massively improve productivity in organizations is allowing people to take afternoon naps. 

[00:18:52] Designer Peter: Yeah, I absolutely wholeheartedly agree. For a long time probably as long as I've been working, I've always said if I ever ran [00:19:00] the company, then every desk would have a roll up sleep mat next to it.

[00:19:03] Designer Peter: And you'd be able to roll out your your sleeping mat onto your desk and have a micro power app for 10 or 15 minutes. Yeah, a couple of times a day. And just the difference. It would I totally agree the difference it would make. 

[00:19:14] Dr Dani: A 20 minute nap increase productivity because you wake up and I've experienced this when I work from home, I'll have lunch.

[00:19:23] Dr Dani: I'll have a, a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and then I'll lay down for 20 minutes and then I wake up and my brain is just like it was when I woke up first thing in the morning, right? Like ready to go, get stuff done. 

[00:19:35] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:19:36] Dr Dani: So I feel like sacrificing that 20 minutes 

[00:19:39] Designer Peter: is 

[00:19:39] Dr Dani: worth the productivity that I get, but we're not but we don't live in a world where that kind of thinking is normalized.

[00:19:47] Dr Dani: We think productivity is about go, but the thing is, our brains aren't wired that way. So even if we look like we're going, the output and the actual productivity that's happening is. 

[00:19:58] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah [00:20:00] diminishing. Yeah, I think I'm I've not experienced it firsthand, but I believe some, Japanese businesses, actively, is part of, I think Japanese culture that, a desk nap is is, perfectly acceptable, if not actually encouraged, if not revered. If you're having a desk nap, then that shows, it's almost the opposite problem. It shows that you are, working extremely hard because you need a desk nap. Yeah all of this comes into, for me, one of my favorite phrases, although I do need to make sure it's understood is rest is part of training.

[00:20:30] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:20:31] Designer Peter: And actually the, I think of it in sporting terms, like an athlete who's training, let's say, for the Olympics the most important part of their training schedule is the time that they're not training. So for us as knowledge workers, as designers some of the most important time is when we're not actually Let's say all the tools are actively, doing something.

[00:20:50] Designer Peter: It's when we're doing the opposite of it. Maybe not, sleeping is definitely obviously absolutely important. So important critical to health and especially mental health and as knowledge [00:21:00] workers on mental health is the equivalent of our muscles that a sprinter might need to develop and train.

[00:21:05] Designer Peter: But yeah the, this ties completely into your, what you were just saying about, we're not built for continuous operation, and yet our work culture can sometimes lead us into that that pitfall, that trap of thinking that in order to deliver something by a deadline, then we need to work every single spare minute.

[00:21:24] Designer Peter: And before that deadline, when actually not quite the opposite, but we definitely need to be building in pauses whether they're micro, mini or sometimes mighty. 

[00:21:33] Dr Dani: A couple of weeks ago I was working on something that was really data heavy and I was trying to figure something out.

[00:21:40] Dr Dani: And I remember getting to a point and I just need to walk away. And I did I literally just walked away. I went, started the laundry, did like just random things and then I came back to and 

[00:21:54] Dr Dani: I just saw it differently and I started going down another route and then I hit another wall and then I [00:22:00] said it worked last time. Let me go do something else. And in that second time, I didn't walk away. I just put that data work away and I went and did some email stuff and I did some other things.

[00:22:10] Dr Dani: And then I came back to it. I'm using that as a specific example because you could look at it , Oh my God, that was two hours you could have spent on it. 

[00:22:18] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:22:19] Dr Dani: If it's two hours I'm spending on it and I'm not getting anywhere, is it actually two hours I'm spending on it? 

[00:22:24] Designer Peter: Yeah.

[00:22:24] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:26] Dr Dani: Okay. So micro pauses are those in the moment, couple of seconds, take a breath, pauses. Mini pauses I'm going to say about 10 to 15 minutes, walk away from something and go do something else and come back to it. And mighty pauses. Mighty pauses are those longer and they tend to be more planned and deliberate. And you're walking away from something for a while. 

[00:22:53] Designer Peter: Yep. Yep. 

[00:22:55] Dr Dani: Where I see this going wrong is oftentimes we [00:23:00] plan to take mighty pauses and sneak in micro bits of work. That is a very modern day problem.

[00:23:06] Dr Dani: And it's a modern day and the reason I say it's a modern day problem is that when we had, when our society was predominantly working in a factory or a farm or when our work was more hands on, when you weren't on the farm or you weren't in the factory, you weren't really working 

[00:23:22] Designer Peter: because 

[00:23:23] Dr Dani: It was physically impossible.

[00:23:26] Dr Dani: To be working on the assembly line if you're not at the assembly line. So when we left work, we truly left work. It's a modern day problem because today we leave work and we take our devices with us. Or devices are constantly speaking to us too. So most of us fail at mighty pauses. Because, and then we come back.

[00:23:52] Dr Dani: And it's it's almost like you're in a, so you know how when you have a bad night's sleep and, but you still stay in bed [00:24:00] and then you wake up and it just you're not rested at all, even though you've been laying down all, all night, but you haven't slept and it's like, And research even says that it's better to just get up if you can't sleep and go do something else and come back to try to sleep. When you go on vacation and you work, it's that same effect because you haven't truly disengaged. So you come back more tired because you haven't really done either of the things that the holiday is supposed to achieve.

[00:24:33] Designer Peter: Yeah, you've taken a series of, somewhere between mini and mighty breaks instead of taking an actual mighty break. Yeah, it's like you're coming back to, you mentioned about the the nervous system. You're still in the wrong state.

[00:24:48] Designer Peter: Or, you're never really properly in the paused switched off, relaxed state where all the all the good stuff happens.

[00:24:57] Designer Peter: And coming back to, as knowledge workers, [00:25:00] compared to say farmer or other workers back in the day Even if we leave our devices behind, then one of the challenges we have is that our work is, a lot of it is literally in our minds. It's like where we're doing our work is in our heads.

[00:25:12] Designer Peter: So we, it's not a good idea to leave that entirely behind in the workplaces that we're always carrying our work around in our mind. So we need to learn how to actively pause. Yeah, pause. Thank you. Which means The word I use is like switching off, isn't it?

[00:25:27] Designer Peter: How do we switch off the part of our brain that is, can continuously be thinking about work, whether that's problems, opportunities, exciting stuff, challenging stuff, boring stuff. I think pausing a lot or learning to pause well is about learning to, put those things to the side. Yeah. I'm going to put you on the spot now and ask you what sort of things you do to to do that, to put put work to one side or switch off the working part of your your brain, whether it's in a mini or mighty duration.

[00:25:59] Dr Dani: [00:26:00] Personally, and perhaps for a lot of other people, I think a mini pause is in lots of ways easier because you can say, look, I'm going to go for a walk and I'm going to come back to it. And it's it's a specific span of time that is acceptable, so if you said to your boss, Hey, I'm going to walk away for 15 minutes, but I'll be back.

[00:26:22] Dr Dani: There's this unsaid assumption. They'll be okay with it. But then also for the person hearing it all 15 minutes, that's. Whereas if I said, look, I'm going to take 15 days and I'm going to come back to this. It feels like I've got to sell it. You've got to get your head at this, so I think in lots of ways we struggle with the mighty break because it feels like it's not going to be accepted.

[00:26:48] Dr Dani: It's going to be viewed as frivolous and this is very cultural. In the U S two weeks. Of vacation is the norm, whereas in New Zealand, it's four [00:27:00] weeks. And one of the big cultural shocks that I experienced coming to New Zealand is everybody takes their four weeks off and then some, right?

[00:27:10] Dr Dani: That is just the cultural norm. Whereas in the States Even taking the two weeks you're entitled to feels like a big ask. I'm generalizing cause I'm pretty sure there's places and people in New Zealand that haven't taken a holiday in God knows how long.

[00:27:27] Dr Dani: And I'm sure there's people in the U S that take very, so I'm being very general, but the point I'm trying to make is that cultural and social norms also dictate mighty pause. Whereas micropause and mini pauses, we have a lot more control at an individual level to do. Micropausing is a habitual self conscious thing that you've got to learn how to do the same with the mini pause.

[00:27:54] Dr Dani: But I think most of us are naturally good at the mini pause because it. It's [00:28:00] just something you feel, right? You're working on something. I'm not getting anywhere with this. And it's something that we don't feel like we have to ask permission for. With the mighty pause it's two levels.

[00:28:12] Dr Dani: It's I need this break to be accepted by the people around me. And I've got to do the internal work to disconnect. 

[00:28:21] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:28:22] Dr Dani: and that's why it's harder. So what I do when I need to And I'm not saying I'm very good at this. I work for myself. So my personal and professional life bleed in all the time.

[00:28:35] Dr Dani: But when I am being very deliberate about, you know what, I am going to an example, on my birthday, I booked in a spa day for myself and my birthday happened to be on a Friday and I made the mental decision on Thursday. I am going to park everything. Friday, I don't have to think of, I am not doing anything related to work.

[00:28:57] Dr Dani: And what I did is on Thursday at the end of the [00:29:00] day one, I set expectations. I am not available on Friday. And then I started making a list of all the things that were floating around in my head. I made a list and said to myself, all right that's, this is everything I'm doing on Monday.

[00:29:17] Dr Dani: There's power to that when you, and some of the things that were on the list, I literally scheduled it in the calendar, because then I knew this isn't going to happen till Tuesday, so I don't need to be bothered with it, or, there's this thing happening on Wednesday and I have to work on a presentation when I get back on Monday.

[00:29:37] Dr Dani: So I'll put that in the calendar for Monday. So really thinking about what are the things that are floating around in your head and how do you get it out into, this is a bit of visual communication happening with yourself. How do you get it out onto the paper and then how do you get it scheduled or whatever format you use.

[00:29:54] Dr Dani: So that it's not taking up real estate in your brain. 

[00:29:57] Designer Peter: Yeah. You're giving your brain a [00:30:00] chance to actually switch off and pause. 

[00:30:02] Dr Dani: But I will say it is not, it's not easy to do. I struggle with it. I have a method for it and I have to be very deliberate about it and very disciplined about it.

[00:30:15] Dr Dani: This is the other thing. Yeah. Taking deliberate breaks takes discipline, which sounds a bit counterintuitive. 

[00:30:23] Designer Peter: Yeah, 

[00:30:24] Dr Dani: but it takes a lot of mental discipline to disengage. 

The Paradox of Pausing: Effort and Discipline

[00:30:27] Designer Peter: Yeah. Oh, yes, that's a great point. Yeah, it's almost paradoxical, isn't it? You think pausing is breaking as in, just having a break.

[00:30:38] Designer Peter: It must therefore be easy, but actually you're right, it takes a lot of, or can take a lot of effort, work and, yeah, discipline, especially to set yourself up for the pause. We're talking more mini and mighty rather than micro, right? But even the micro breaks, needs discipline to build the habit to then do it habitually.

[00:30:59] Designer Peter: Yeah, [00:31:00] thanks for sharing your story there, because, yeah, the struggle can often be harder within than without, right? It's sometimes easier to line up a break with, your stakeholders or your clients or your boss than it is actually to line up and be comfortable with it internally, just as you're saying.

[00:31:18] Designer Peter: Yeah.

Transforming Weekends into Mighty Pauses

[00:31:18] Designer Peter: As we're talking, Dani, I'm wondering whether there's. Maybe there's a fourth level of break somewhere between many and maybe it's because I've used the word mighty and there's a, because like I'm thinking, yes, 15 days is takes up a lot of, takes a lot of effort to set up and get comfortable with etc.

[00:31:39] Designer Peter: But we have if you work 9 to 5 Monday to Friday or 9 to 5 ish Monday to Friday ish, then society gives us a couple of days where we get to have a pause, don't we, like a weekend. Yeah. most people it's Saturday and Sunday. And yeah, some of us do end up doing a little bit of work on the weekend.

[00:31:56] Designer Peter: Sometimes, whether you work for yourself or work for someone else, but they [00:32:00] are, they are pauses built in for us. I think it's important to, to make the most of those. And that's where I was thinking, that'd be great if a weekend could be a mighty pause, but often it's not. It's more like somewhere between the the mini and the mighty, isn't it?

[00:32:16] Dr Dani: Why can't a weekend be a mighty pause? 

[00:32:20] Designer Peter: Oh, good question. Good comeback.

[00:32:22] Designer Peter: We make our weekends mighty pauses? 

[00:32:27] Dr Dani: Here's an example of that, so remember how I said for my birthday, which happened to be on a Friday on Thursday, the week before I started setting expectations on Friday, the 14th, I will not be available.

[00:32:40] Dr Dani: If you need anything from me, please get it to me. I will not be available. So I started setting those expectations. So I did all this, I went through a checklist of, I'm going to let everybody know I'm going to set expectations. I'm going to set my out of office. I'm going to make the list.

[00:32:56] Dr Dani: I'm going to schedule things in the calendar. What [00:33:00] if we did that every Friday and literally turned off our machine and we did things on the weekends

[00:33:10] Dr Dani: Go for a walk, go for a swim, go watch the ocean. 

[00:33:13] Designer Peter: Yep. 

[00:33:15] Designer Peter: Make 

[00:33:15] Dr Dani: breakfast that you ruin and then go out to brunch. Yeah 

[00:33:20] Designer Peter: I love your your challenge to my thinking that, yeah maybe the secret is that you make your weekends as mighty a pause as you possibly can in whatever way that works for you, which, could be, maybe it's as simple as do anything, but whatever your work is, whatever doing for a living, do anything but that.

[00:33:38] Dr Dani: We have to be practical, all of us go through times when. We are busy and sometimes our work creeps into the weekend. 

[00:33:45] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:33:46] Dr Dani: That is a norm of working life. Where it gets to be a problem is that the working, the weekends, the working, the night that becomes the norm and then you're not getting any pausing.

[00:33:59] Designer Peter: And, [00:34:00] ultimately, if that continues for a duration of time, then, you get into burnout territory where you'll need a lot more than a mighty pause to recover from that. 

[00:34:10] Dr Dani: Taking this back to the Olympics, 

[00:34:12] Designer Peter: yeah. 

[00:34:13] Dr Dani: Those athletes during competitions, that's like when knowledge workers work over time or in the weekends, right?

[00:34:20] Dr Dani: Because it's a busy time, we're trying to get something done. When those athletes are done competing, they get time to recover. 

[00:34:28] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:34:28] Dr Dani: They don't just go on to the next competition. 

[00:34:31] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:34:32] Dr Dani: So why is it that we don't expect that from, Knowledge workers because and that's where burnout happens.

[00:34:38] Dr Dani: Humans are extremely we can do endurance. 

[00:34:43] Designer Peter: Yeah 

[00:34:43] Dr Dani: And I use the example of the last couple of months of my PhD research Was mentally exhausting and I was not a pretty person to be around I was in the data. I was trying to make sense of it. I was writing. It was just such [00:35:00] a mentally exhaustive time.

[00:35:03] Dr Dani: And when I finished and I defended and I got the, I literally sat on the couch and binge watch, the trashiest Netflix shows I could because I knew had I gone from all of that to work I was in burnout territory, but I needed the break to recover, and I think we'd look down upon the breaks.

[00:35:26] Dr Dani: And we don't go, actually, this person's done this amazing thing. Now they're in recovery mode, so let's leave them alone for a bit.

[00:35:34] Designer Peter: Yeah, they're in recovery mode. Let's leave them alone because if we do that, we know that they actually come back even stronger and better than they were before. 

[00:35:44] Dr Dani: If you want people to go faster, you've got to let them take breaks. 

[00:35:47] Designer Peter: Yeah. Nice. Mic drop. On that note. 

[00:35:52] Dr Dani: On that note,

[00:35:55] Designer Peter: Yeah. Maybe it is on that note.

 An author whose work is bubbling through my [00:36:00] mind as we're having this conversation, Cal Newport. He's written several books that, talk more expansively about this subject, but I think in order, like a, let's call it a mighty pause, over the weekend, I think lining yourself up to, switch off for the weekend is really important.

[00:36:15] Designer Peter: And one of Cal Newport's techniques he uses he apparently still does it to this day. He learned it when he was a student physically closing the lid of his laptop at the end of his workday. And saying to himself out loud something like scheduled shutdown complete. And he's a computer scientist, so that's why he uses that language, but he's, he's sending really strong signals, both physical and verbal to himself.

[00:36:39] Designer Peter: He will not reopen his laptop. And I think he describes that by doing that, he also tells his brain to just not think about work stuff. And once he's done that, whatever time of day he does that, I think, learning your own version of that technique to Stand up and walk away from.

[00:36:55] Designer Peter: Work so that you can have a break in the evening or weekends [00:37:00] is something I've learned to do really helpful, especially in a, a post COVID pandemic world where for a lot of us, flexible working and working from somewhere other than an office where, you need to actually build in those physical, verbal, form of Et cetera, cues to yourself, even though work might be, or potential work might be, a matter of meters away or in a slightly different room in the house, then it's actually would be easy to keep going with work, but it's more important to pause.

[00:37:31] Dr Dani: But that's also where the flexibility comes in, because there might be some pockets of your working life where you do need to let your work bleed into those times. Yeah. That just can't be the norm.

[00:37:45] Designer Peter: Yeah, exactly. Sorry, I maybe took away, I diminished from your mic drop peak moment there. But imagine I hadn't talked about Cal Newport, even though that was important for me to say, mic drop moment. If you want people to go [00:38:00] fast, you need to let them take breaks. If we want to go fast ourselves, we need to give ourselves permission to take breaks.

[00:38:06] Dr Dani: We have to look at we have to look at breaks. Rest, pauses, whatever we want to call them as equally important. 

[00:38:16] Designer Peter: Yes.

[00:38:18] Designer Peter: Another microtropical moment. I'm not going to ruin that one. 

[00:38:23] Dr Dani: Let's have a micropause to let that sink in. 

[00:38:28] Designer Peter: Equally important. Yes.

[00:38:30] Designer Peter: Yes. Thank you for those words because that, that, when I say rest is part of training, that's essentially what I'm trying to say is it is a vital, just as important of performance.

[00:38:40] Dr Dani: And again, something I struggle with. Progress for me. So I'm not claiming to be some sort of guru on the topic because it's something I wrestle with too, the thing to remember is that we're probably never going to be perfect at it, but it's being conscious about when do I need a micro, mini, mighty pause.

[00:38:59] Dr Dani: So [00:39:00] that I can be okay, I can be more effective, I can be more impactful, right? 

[00:39:04] Designer Peter: Yep. 

Design Thinking and the Power of Pauses

[00:39:05] Dr Dani: So this being a show about design and design thinking specifically what does micro, mini, mighty have to do with design thinking? 

[00:39:16] Designer Peter: Heaps. You just build those. Type of pauses into the workflow.

[00:39:21] Designer Peter: I think you might have a mighty pause between pieces of work or projects. You might even have a couple of a mighty pause in between stages of work. You may have a mighty pause part through a design sprint. Yeah. 

[00:39:33] Dr Dani: Can we create design sprints around breaks? I find in New Zealand, we have year round schooling. So what is it like 10 weeks on and two weeks off? 

[00:39:44] Designer Peter: That's right. Until summer when it's six weeks.

[00:39:49] Dr Dani: But in the U. S. You have school that goes for basically you have school all year except summer. And I find this interesting because there's lots of research that says [00:40:00] that, that amount of time away from school,

[00:40:03] Dr Dani: the children regress, so it's better to have these pockets of time off throughout the year. And it's understood that children need that, but it's not understood that adults need that.

[00:40:14] Dr Dani: So that's one point. So then when we think about designing our work, why is it that we can't design our work where, lots of organizations now work in two weekly sprints, so why can't we design our work so you have a sprint and before going on to the next sprint? Have a break. Maybe it's, you work the two sprints and then you get that Friday off and then everybody gets a three day weekend.

[00:40:43] Dr Dani: It doesn't have to be. massive, but why can't we organize our work that way? 

[00:40:50] Designer Peter: I have worked in an organization that did work in that way a little bit, and that was extremely effective to have a pause of a day between not every [00:41:00] single sprint, but several sprints linked together, and there was a pause and coming back to part of our earlier conversation, a pause can be just doing something different rather than doing nothing at all.

[00:41:09] Designer Peter: So you might sprint sprint, and then. Pause for a day and do something like in this situation, it was all the people who had a similar kind of expertise. In a practice, for example, all the designers had a practice day. So we would get together and spend time with each other and talk about design and how we might get better at that.

[00:41:27] Designer Peter: And that was I think effective, an effective pause to switch off from one mode of work. Kinda reset and recharge reconnect. I'm an advocate of doing that for sure. I think it's almost more essential to do it when you're working in that kind of sprint type pattern than it would be if you were working in, a different way where.

[00:41:49] Designer Peter: Week to week, it's more or less the same. 

[00:41:51] Dr Dani: Think about it, right? Like when you're working in that sprint time, imagine telling a marathon runner who ran a race today, all right, great job. By the way, you better go out and [00:42:00] run another one tomorrow. 

[00:42:01] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:42:02] Dr Dani: Oh, and by the way, after that, the next day you've got one too.

[00:42:05] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. But if we're talking athletics terms, by definition, a sprint needs a break at the end after you can't just keep sprinting and sprinting. And sprinters, especially, their training regime is after 100 meters sprint, they'll go to bed. They'll go and actually sleep for several hours before they're ready to do anything else.

[00:42:26] Dr Dani: So coming back to the design process. So I think we can build in mighty pauses, in between the big things. Yeah. I also think when we design things like workshops there's. We have to be more deliberate. I feel like we get people into rooms and we're like, okay, we're going to ideate and then we're going to move to this and we're going to move to that.

[00:42:49] Dr Dani: By the way, putting speed into ideation is a good thing because it. There's lots of benefits into that. That's not what I'm talking about. It's the [00:43:00] transitioning, being deliberate about, okay, we've done some ideation, which was a rapid moving task. Let's do something that's more slow paced.

[00:43:09] Dr Dani: Let's give people a chance to just chit chat. And then move to the next thing. We could be very deliberate about how do we design workshops. learning and, anything, even a meeting, how do we design a meeting so that it's not an hour of bing.

[00:43:28] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yes. Actually the most effective, enjoyable workshops or sprints that I've been part of, we have designed those changes of state quite deliberately from and actually if you talk about a meeting being an hour long, I think a more effective, enjoyable meeting is one that has The right balance of fast and slow pace, and that's in contrast to either an hour of really slow paced activity, which wouldn't make sense, or an hour of really fast activity, which would, just drive everyone crazy.

[00:43:57] Designer Peter: But, the mixture of those two, I think, is actually [00:44:00] more effective and enjoyable than Like a medium paced hour long meeting, that doesn't have that change of change of state. Maybe getting philosophical, it's like the pause and the and the speed are necessary for each other.

[00:44:13] Designer Peter: Light and dark. You don't know one without the other. You need to have that contrast in in pace. 

[00:44:21] Dr Dani: Design is all about balance too, right? So this is what we're talking about is it can't just be go. It's got to be other things as well. 

[00:44:29] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:44:29] Dr Dani: Any other thoughts on how do we as design thinkers bring pauses into our work?

[00:44:35] Designer Peter: Yeah I think the opportunities are all over the place, aren't they? It's It's maybe not how, but just to remind, as in our parts of our earlier conversation, it's more maybe we, as design thinkers, and if we're, let's say, facilitating a group of fellow designers or non designers, I think it's part of our job is to pay attention to this and be the person.

[00:44:58] Designer Peter: At least the one person [00:45:00] overall has joined us and I think of it as standing up to the default, because that default kind of urge or the feeling we get that we need to be moving at a high pace all the time, because we are the design thinker, we are the leader, we're the facilitator, we need to be the person that takes almost a brave point of view and goes, no, we're actually going to have a micro, mini or mighty pause on this, because we know for sure that it's going to actually benefit the the outcomes of the work.

[00:45:24] Designer Peter: In the end. I remember just starting off with design sprints that were five days long. It didn't take us long to realize that, actually, the fifth day was , pretty much a waste of time. So a four day design sprint turned out to be a lot more effective than a five day design sprint.

[00:45:41] Designer Peter: And also we learned that you can do two of those back to back with the same facilitation team you needed to have a week off at least between a four day design sprint and the next one. 

[00:45:54] Designer Peter: So that was a bit of the ho. What about our favorite subject, Dani, our design thinking [00:46:00] capabilities? How do these come into play when we're talking about pauses and the power of the pause? 

[00:46:05] Dr Dani: Oh let's see. We usually start with situation optimizing. 

[00:46:09] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:46:11] Dr Dani: Which is about, looking at situations and having that belief that better is possible. It's about understanding constraints and still maintaining the attitude that, change is possible. Huh. When we're using that muscle, it requires a lot of reflection.

[00:46:30] Dr Dani: There both micro and mini pauses are very critical. So oftentimes when I'm doing workshops or even interviews where, I asked people, so tell me all the things that don't work. Tell me what's not working well today. As they get to the end of that list.

[00:46:51] Dr Dani: I try to build in some conversation, but before I move into the next thing, because it's really hard to tell somebody to tell me all the bad things, [00:47:00] not tell me all the good things like that. Just it just doesn't flow. 

[00:47:04] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:47:04] Dr Dani: So one of the ways you could build in a little micro pause is, switch to something else, just finding some way to make that transition.

[00:47:14] Dr Dani: Which means that, that conversation might take a little bit longer, but it's gonna be more effective. 

[00:47:19] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:47:21] Dr Dani: And also particularly around understanding what's not working, that's also a good opportunity for a mini break to go break. That's, especially if you're doing that in a workshop setting.

[00:47:32] Dr Dani: Let's go take a break, grab a coffee, buy a break, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. And 

[00:47:36] Designer Peter: go back to it. Yeah.

[00:47:37] Designer Peter: I just, I think. For me situation optimising, yeah, it's believing in the power of the pause and adopting a situation optimisation mindset means that, yeah, you should be looking for ways to build in breaks to any kind of work. It's I've not explained that particularly well, but it's like they go hand in hand.

[00:47:59] Designer Peter: It's Maybe [00:48:00] it's a way to optimize almost any situation is find the ways to build in that contrast between going fast and pausing, going fast and pausing for all the reasons we've just described.

[00:48:10] Dr Dani: So the next one with empathetic exploration, I think micro pauses here are really critical. Particularly when you are having interviews or, trying to do that empathy work, as much as we could prepare to go do to empathize with people, what we find out, and this is what fascinates me about, researcher, because as a researcher, you're taught, you've got to have a research plan, you've got to have a script, you've got to have this, you've got to have that, and then you show up, And the environment, things that you're not expecting show pops up all the time and you have to be able to pivot in the moment, still remember what you intended to do the outcome you're looking for, but improvise and pivot [00:49:00] that improvising and pivoting requires a lot of micro and many pauses.

[00:49:05] Dr Dani: So I've been in situations where I've been out in communities and I was going to do the research this way, but then I showed up and okay, this is not going to work in this context. Or I came here to talk about this, but clearly this community is upset about this. So I've got to let them talk about the thing that they want to talk about, which is but I need that micro moment to sense what's happening and readjust.

[00:49:28] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:49:28] Dr Dani: So I think it's. I think that's how pausing plays a role in this.

[00:49:33] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice.

[00:49:34] Designer Peter: Where else did we go?

[00:49:35] Dr Dani: To visual communication, I think we talked about that in terms of I think visual communication can actually help us with pausing because we can take all the things in our heads. Sometimes when I feel like there's a lot in my head, I literally get out the post it notes and write.

[00:49:52] Dr Dani: Thoughts down. I put it on the wall and it just helps me get some distance and a bit of [00:50:00] pausing and going, and I talked about the list making before as well. That's how I organize my brain to be able to take a break.

[00:50:06] Designer Peter: Yeah. Nice. I think Another one is

[00:50:08] Designer Peter: Guess what was coming to mind there was the curious experimentation because And it's almost combined with empathetic exploration, but about ourselves. Much like a different athlete every different athlete will need a slightly different training regime with a different mix of, work and rest.

[00:50:25] Designer Peter: I think we and also the specific teams that we become part of and start working with each of those. Individuals and us, we need a slightly different mix. So it's like being empathetically exploring with ourselves to begin with and with others, like what is the right blend of break in order to make make things most effective and enjoyable get the best outcomes.

[00:50:50] Designer Peter: And that requires us to experiment curiously, right? We need to get into, trying out what are these different types of pause and when [00:51:00] to take them and being open to sometimes we'll get it wrong one way or the other. Take too big a break or too too short a break. 

[00:51:07] Dr Dani: With visual communication in the calendar, like calendars can really help. 

[00:51:12] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:51:13] Dr Dani: Visually putting in. 

[00:51:14] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:51:15] Dr Dani: So something I've gotten, I've been doing lately is like when I need to do deep focus work, I put it in my calendar and call it deep focus work.

[00:51:22] Designer Peter: Yeah. Me too. 

[00:51:23] Dr Dani: Me too. And I don't know why, but it's like mentally that my brain goes up. Yep. This is the time to do this. 

[00:51:30] Designer Peter: Yep. It's sending a signal to you, but also if anybody else can see your calendar, they're going, oh, Dani's not available. Yeah, that's a, it is a recurring theme in our conversation, isn't it?

[00:51:40] Designer Peter: We need to be just as conscious of the signals we're sending to ourselves as the signals we are communicating to other people around having breaks, taking pauses, making them, and maybe that's a better word. Like we need to make These things happen and make sure that we are [00:52:00] communicating healthily to ourselves and to each other about them.

[00:52:03] Dr Dani: So we did situation optimizing, empathetic exploration, visual communication, idea generation.

 With idea generation, when you're asking people to move into an ideation space, you do need to create a bit of separation from your normal existence to ideation and we can do that with a micro or a mini pause, 

[00:52:24] Dr Dani: research shows if you want people to come with good ideas, send them out for a walk for 15 minutes and then bring them into the room. So there's ways that we can build in. Mini pausing to be more effective with ideation. 

[00:52:38] Designer Peter: Definitely. I mean it's, that relates totally to the classic, you get your best ideas in the shower, it's because you're not, your brain is not actively seeking an answer.

[00:52:48] Designer Peter: It is paused and not magically, because it's not magic, it's neurology means that the idea emerges yeah, so actually for better idea generation, build in pauses to the work. [00:53:00] 

[00:53:00] Dr Dani: Yeah. So maybe it is that, you bring everybody into the room and you say, look, we're going to be We're going to be ideating on X, Y, Z, but before we do that, let's all take a little walk outside, 10 minutes and come back.

[00:53:15] Designer Peter: Yeah. Yes, you're priming and then having a break and then coming back. Yeah. 

[00:53:19] Dr Dani: So collective collaboration, how might we use pausing?

[00:53:24] Designer Peter: There's a few different ideas come to mind, but what is actually, if you're collaborating well, then maybe you could take turns to take a pause individually.

[00:53:32] Designer Peter: And if you're, effectively collaborating, you can walk away from a group knowing and trusting that the work will continue. And when you come back, you will still be able to contribute in a powerful way. And also you'll be giving someone else a chance to take a break.

[00:53:48] Designer Peter: And the other idea that came to mind is taking a break as a group. Having a meal together with a group that you're collaborating with is incredibly powerful. And that's a [00:54:00] great example, I think, of an active pause where you are still, with each other and talking and, probably end up talking about work situations over a meal.

[00:54:09] Designer Peter: But because you're not actively working on the problem or the design challenge, then something different happens. And it does feel like it. Powerful pause. 

[00:54:19] Dr Dani: I also wonder if this is an opportunity when we are collaborating with others, particularly if you are an individual that tends to be very talkative, micro pausing could be effective.

[00:54:34] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:54:35] Dr Dani: Now, every time you tend to want to speak, maybe tell yourself, hang on. 

[00:54:40] Designer Peter: Yeah. As our our friend, Robert Van Winkle, the third junior would say, stop collaborating and listen.

[00:54:47] Dr Dani: Which is something that and this is why, collaboration is so screwed is a big part of collaboration is actually pausing and listening. 

[00:54:55] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:54:59] Dr Dani: Curious [00:55:00] experimentation. 

[00:55:02] Designer Peter: I think this is where yeah we acknowledge that we need to figure out what is the right, mix of micro, mini, mighty, before, during, and after pauses for us, the work for us as individuals, and then the work for the group and a particular piece of work.

[00:55:21] Designer Peter: Because I think those. It requires curious experimentation because, the answer that the right blend will differ from situation to situation, group to group.

[00:55:32] Dr Dani: I have a little bit of a story around this. Some time ago, an organization I was working on. We had gone through the ideation process and we come up with an idea and we wanted to try it.

[00:55:42] Dr Dani: And. So we took it to the team that was going to trial it and the agreement was we were going to run it for a set amount of days and see what happens. And there were metrics we were going to run. And I [00:56:00] started every day. How's the experiment going? How's the experiment going? And I got told you need to not do that.

[00:56:08] Dr Dani: We agreed to this many days, leave it alone and check in with us. It was almost like the team was saying like, let us do it. And that was a good lesson for me and pausing. Because it was like my brain couldn't turn off the fact that this experiment was going on So I kept wanting to engage but I didn't need to engage 

[00:56:28] Designer Peter: And 

[00:56:29] Dr Dani: Particularly if you're a leader, this is important because if you've asked your team to go do something and you've agreed in a week and whatever leave them alone.

[00:56:39] Dr Dani: So I think there is that And I there's lots of things what do they say? A watched kettle doesn't boil or whatever. I think there's lots of applications to this. Sometimes I think we have to do our part and then go take a break and then come back to it and see what's happened.

[00:56:55] Dr Dani: Don't be watching over the shoulder and, because you don't need to be. And I [00:57:00] think those are opportunities where we can actually go, actually I've done my part. I don't need to check on this for 30 days. I'll go do something. I'll go take a break. 

[00:57:10] Designer Peter: Yeah. Nice.

[00:57:11] Designer Peter: Yeah, that rings true for me. Just yeah, tell yourself to have a micro or mini break when you're when you find yourself getting curious or wanting to find out how something's going. Yeah, nice.

[00:57:23] Designer Peter: Thanks, Dani I think that covers all of the capabilities. Good to come back to those always. And yeah, we've had a good wide ranging chat about the power of the pause. 

[00:57:35] Dr Dani: We have, and we even managed to take the polar bear on the journey.

[00:57:43] Designer Peter: Yes that pint that the barman served the polar bear has been sitting nicely, settling on that. Maybe it was a Guinness actually. I think that would be a polar bear's favorite because that does require a nice long pause between pouring and drinking for it to settle. , that pint of Guinness is ready for the polar bear [00:58:00] to to enjoy now.

[00:58:01] Dr Dani: Guinness seems like appropriate for a polar bear's natural climate. 

[00:58:06] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice and 

[00:58:07] Dr Dani: cold. All right, what are you taking away? 

[00:58:10] Designer Peter: Oh, apart from a sudden desire for a pint of Guinness what am I taking? Wait I like this combination that I've never thought about before, so thank you about this.

[00:58:21] Designer Peter: The micro, the mini, the mighty, but then putting it into a 3 by 3 grid with before, during, and after, and I'm using that as a bit of a template to go, okay, so the situation I'm about to step into this piece of work, for example, I'm just thinking hypothetically, let me plan ahead to and think to myself, how might I, and also how might I lead the group to be really deliberate about these three categories of breaking in these three particular stages of the work, whatever that is Yeah, that's where I'm taking me.

[00:58:53] Dr Dani: You asked me earlier about is sleep a type of pause? 

[00:58:57] Designer Peter: Oh, yeah. 

[00:58:58] Dr Dani: So I wrote down a [00:59:00] question around is sleep A pause because instinctually, I want to say it is a type of a pause. But then we had also talked about this idea of active and inactive pauses. 

[00:59:11] Designer Peter: Yeah.

[00:59:12] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:59:13] Dr Dani: So now my takeaway is I want to go dive into that a little bit. 

[00:59:19] Designer Peter: Okay, cool. I look forward to hearing where you get with that. 

[00:59:21] Dr Dani: Yeah. I've been wanting to read that book why we sleep, so maybe this will be a chance to get that book. 

[00:59:29] Designer Peter: Okay. Feel free to use me as your excuse to buy another book, Dani. 

[00:59:34] Dr Dani: I always do.

[00:59:34] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:59:35] Designer Peter: Yeah. Nice. 

[00:59:37] Dr Dani: Cool. This has been great, Pete. 

[00:59:39] Designer Peter: Yeah. It certainly has.

[00:59:41] Dr Dani: Thanks for listening, listeners. 

[00:59:44] Designer Peter: Thank you, everyone. I hope this has been a helpful pause for you, wherever you're listening, whatever you've been doing in between before and after listening to our podcast. 

[00:59:53] Dr Dani: Yeah, so go take a pause.

[00:59:55] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:59:57] Dr Dani: See you next time. 

[00:59:58] Designer Peter: See you next time. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, [01:00:00] Dani. 

[01:00:00] Dr Dani: Thanks, Pete. Bye. 

[01:00:01] Designer Peter: Bye.