Ep#55: From Process to Experience - The role of recruitment in the age of AI

In this episode, Dr Dani and Designer Peter are joined by Tim Bush, a recruitment professional who's rethinking what hiring looks like in the age of AI. This conversation explores the critical shift from process-focused recruitment to experience-centered hiring, and why AI might be the key to making recruitment more human—not less.

In this episode, you will:

• Understand why recruitment became more about process than people
• Discover how AI can free recruiters to focus on deeply human work
• Explore practical ways to shift from process optimization to experience design

Meet Our Guest Tim Bush

Tim is known for his enthusiasm, curiosity, and unique perspective on life. Starting his professional career in football, and with his growth mindset, he is all about the action of being connected with others. It was only a matter of time before Talent Acquisition (TA) came calling! He finds himself in a TA leadership position whereby he gets to challenge and disrupt, be a futurist and loves seeing people succeed. He is deeply passionate about what the future of TA will look and feel like ensure that his energy goes into AI, automation, data driven decisions and most importantly, people development. He’s always willing to connect with others so reach out to him on LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-bush/

Show Notes

From Process to Experience
Recruitment has become obsessed with stage gates, approval chains, and time-to-fill metrics. But when you emphasize the process, you don't get the experience. Tim explains why this shift happened and what it costs us.

AI as the Great Liberator
Imagine if AI could handle all the administrative work—writing job ads, screening applications, drafting contracts, sending updates. What would recruiters do with that time? Connection, understanding context, and showing care.

Co-Designing Each Recruitment
Why do we use one-size-fits-all recruitment processes? Tim advocates for co-designing each recruitment approach during the job brief conversation with the hiring manager. Make it fit the context. Make it human.

The Return of the Phone Call
In a world of emails and automation, picking up the phone has become a radical act. Tim's mentor taught him one lesson: "Pick up the phone." It's still the best advice in recruitment.

Aroha in Action
The Māori concept of aroha (love, care, compassion) belongs in recruitment. You can decline someone with aroha—timely, personally, and with genuine feedback. It doesn't cost money. It costs attention.

Process Thinking vs. Experience Thinking
Organizations have applied factory thinking to recruitment: standardize, optimize, eliminate variation. But humans aren't products on an assembly line. Every person is unique, and their uniqueness changes daily. Our systems need to honor that.

Practices You Can Apply

Measure what matters
Track your notification rate. How many declined candidates actually hear back from you? Aim for 100%.

Let candidates choose their communication channel
Add one simple question to your application: "How would you like us to communicate with you—text, email, or phone call?" Then honor it.

Use AI to amplify humanity
Let AI handle the administrative burden so you can spend time on what only humans can do: connection, conversation, care, and understanding context.

Co-design the recruitment approach
During the job brief, work with the hiring manager to design a recruitment process that fits this specific role, context, and candidate pool. Not cookie-cutter. Bespoke.

Pick up the phone
When in doubt, make the call. Real human connection happens through conversation, not automation.

Transcript

Dr Dani: [00:00:00] Good morning, Peter. How are you? 

Designer Peter: I'm great, thanks Dani. How are you? 

Dr Dani: I am well excited for today's conversation. 

Designer Peter: Me too, as always. 

Dr Dani: What are we talking about today? 

Designer Peter: Today, Dani? Clear my throat. It's a bit of a longer introduction than usual today. Right now as we're recording this we are in, the middle of a wave of generative ai I guess adoption is what you'd call it.

The AI tools that are available to us in the middle of 2020 to five are quite incredible and mind blowing. And as the Design Thinker podcast and as human-centered designers, one of the questions that's continually passing through our minds and in conversation between you and I, is how might we take those AI tools and use them mindfully, thoughtfully a and in a human-centered way so that we continue.

To design and create a world that is, is human centered rather than AI centered. And, we often think about in terms of experiences [00:01:00] and today we're gonna talk about an experience that almost everyone listening to this will have gone through themselves. And that's what we could call it, recruitment from a from our own point of view, being recruited into a role in an organization.

But from an organization's point of view, it's often called talent acquisition. So we're gonna talk about how the experience of talent and acquisition and recruitment might change for better or for worse than how we might shape it as design thinkers in this new world of ai. I told you it was a long introduction, didn't I?

Dr Dani: I am totally looking forward to getting into this. 'cause as I've been doing quite a bit of work in terms of understanding behavioral science and how does that play into ai, and then how do those things play into, to creating better experiences for humans. And we have a guest today Yeah.

To help us unpack this. Tim, do you want to introduce yourself to our audience? 

Guest Tim: Kia ora [00:02:00] everybody. A really unique thing about being in New Zealand is the connection back to our to our ancestral past. If it's okay I'll probably split this up, I'll make sure that I translate it.

So the first part is basically three really simple thank yous. Thank you to our ancestors for giving us this wealth of knowledge and experience and wisdom to be able to kōrero to talk. Openly, and thank you for the ground that we're speaking from, and thank you very much for, connection here.

There's there's probably another part to that is, is an introduction of myself. So if you're, okay, so

Kia ora tātau,

Ko Maungatautari te maunga

Ko Waikato te awa

Ko Tinui te waka

No Parawera ahau

Ko Ngāti Raukawa te iwi

Ko Bush/Pōhi te whānau

Ko Timoti ahau

No reira, Tēnā koutou katoa

so what I've said there is my people came over on Nui, that was the name of our waka of our boat. And they settled in the Waikato region which is just north or just south of Auckland as a reference point for those global listeners. Mona [00:03:00] to is our, Mona is is the mountain and my last name was Pohi.

Only but two generations ago, and now it is Bush, but we are thinking about reverting that Timothy is Timothy, but that name is purely reserved for my mum when I'm being told off. So Tim is absolutely fine to to call me. So yeah, that's just a little bit about me and I'll probably explain maybe and why the peppy hu or why introducing yourself like that is just so incredibly important.

Dr Dani: Yeah. Tim, thank you. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. Kia ora, Tim, and welcome to the podcast. Yeah. Like we said, we can't can't wait to get into this into this topic. And yeah as listeners and as you will know, Tim listeners know we we like to start to define things like what is it what is it we're talking about?

And I, usually we have a only short sentence to get into, but this, yeah. Maybe we'll start a bit more openly this I your maybe tell us a bit more about your background. So you are you do work in talent and acquisition in recruitment. And maybe tell us what you're seeing in terms of, or [00:04:00] what you've seen and what you're starting to see in terms of this recruitment or talent acquisition experience as we, we frame it.

Guest Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Look I my background first first things first I'm, I wouldn't say that there are people out there in the ether that are far more experienced from a recruitment perspective. I very much feel as though I'm relatively new to the party in this one. I'm with about 10 years under my belt.

But what I have experienced is the, you, we've all applied for jobs, right? And I think whenever I've, as my early twenties, or even younger than that when I've applied for the job, there's always been one thing in the back of my mind of going will they get back to me? Do they actually know who I am?

Do they care about who I am? And look I think there has been this power struggle between where does the responsibility lie or who has the power? Is it the company or is it the person? Is it the can, the [00:05:00] job seeker? And I think what we saw in 2022, towards the late stages of that year is unemployment at historical low levels.

It's set. I read. There was an article yesterday that where we are, we're heading towards 5.3%, which is a nine year high. But, 2022 in Wellington for, I think it was two quarters, back to back was sub 3%, so 2.8%. And why that is so significant is 3% is the threshold to technically say there is no unemployment.

Everybody is in a job. And isn't that for me, that's a bonkers thing. So the the power shift had was went onto the job seeker. And now that we've seen a, a 2% shift in the opposite direction companies now, I think organizations are saying the power sits with us. Again, this is where it should always sit.

I'm a bit of an advocate for the job seeker or the candidate where. [00:06:00] I don't think that's quite the right way to go about it. So I know I've jumped around a few things and dived into some topics, but getting back to me that I've got about 10 years under my belt, both from an agency and in-house perspective.

And there are some good things that are happening at the moment, some really good things, but I think as a whole, we are missing the mark as a whole. Yeah. Okay. 

Dr Dani: So when you say as a when we say we, do you mean the profession? 

Guest Tim: I say, the profession, and I'll I've got a couple.

Oh yeah. There's 1 example that springs to mind straight away is, I read something on LinkedIn the other day that a, a company had a hundred applicants for, I believe it was a receptionist position and a reception position. That shouldn't be frowned upon. That's literally a gateway.

Is it your first point as a customer in they received a hundred applicants. They were like, oh I dunno what to [00:07:00] do. And so they just looked at the first 20 and discarded the rest, and so when you hear and feel stories like that, you're like, what about the 80? Yeah. 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Guest Tim: Who's the advocate for those 80? There could be some terrific people in there that might be not necessarily a no, they might be a no now, but they could be a yes in a month's time or a year's time. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: And so I think there's this real friction. So when you say, who is we? I think it's the profession as a whole. Yeah. But I'm not, that's not just aim at recruiters. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: That is at. Maybe your organization doesn't have an internal recruitment team. Maybe you outsource it to a recruitment agency. It could be you have an HR generalist and look after.

It could be just a hiring manager, lead process, whoever is that person that is leading the recruitment of that position. That's what I'm saying from a we perspective. 

Dr Dani: The [00:08:00] power balance you talk about is really interesting because I, I totally remember in 2022 when it was such a different market and organizations were having to do all kinds of acrobatics 

Designer Peter: to, 

Dr Dani: to acquire talent, and now the power balance has shifted.

And what I'm trying to understand is, so these shifts are gonna happen, right? We, we exist in an economic cycle and these shifts happen. I don't understand why. Is this profession so prone to acting in different ways because of this shift? 

Guest Tim: What a question that is. Like why is there this power shift? I think goodness, you've stumped me with this. Where my mind goes is that I think there's a couple of things probably around this notion of AI really disrupting the profession and we'll, no doubt, like really explore this soon.[00:09:00] 

There is this drive to try and automate everything. And then lastly is wrong people in these roles. And this is where, I think there is a requirement to. When you have somebody who just gets it, like they just know that picking up this thing, picking up the phone and calling somebody is the right thing to do.

Is and I think that's typically innate within somebody. I had a very good mentor. I didn't know it at the time, what he was really talking about, but his name's Matthew Tempa and he's a absolutely wonderful recruiter and just generally just a terrific person. But when I first started in I was changed completely changing careers and I started in recruitment agency.

He always said, pick up the phone. Pick up the phone. Oh, but I dunno about this. Hey Tim, pick up the phone. And what he was saying is, we work in [00:10:00] a human business.

If we wanna look at from a product perspective, our product is people like, and that's probably where I'll leave that. 'cause I don't like to think of people as products, is 'cause that's definitely not how I think, but is what he was saying is we are a human environment. Everything about us is people related. 

And you can't always read people from a piece of paper. So pick up the phone, take them out for a coffee, go and see them con talk, connect with them. And I think that word connect is potentially the piece of the puzzle that is missing in recruitment land at the minute.

So I don't know if that answers or maybe I've gone off on a massive tangent here. Dani

Designer Peter: As listeners will know we like our tangents, we go off on tangents, so that's really insightful there, Tim.

And I think maybe my take on Dani's question, which is pretty big one, pretty deep on, early on, I have to say. I think it's just, it's a, in black and white terms, in [00:11:00] spreadsheet terms. I think it's a supply and demand. I think that's where the power dynamics however, just like you, Tim, I think thinking of people as products or numbers, et cetera, I think it is a necessary sometimes, but it's not where I like to begin an end, people are people not not resources, not assets.

We are all human beings. But I think that's perhaps where the power dynamic shift is that, this pure and simple su supply and demand. Coming back to, I'm just gonna bring us back a little bit to the, where we're anchoring and where we're talking and. That, idea of talent acquisition or recruitment, what is this the beginning almost the, yeah, the very beginnings of our, let's say, employee journey or, and it's a specific experience with that that employee journey and employer journey actually where 'cause for the listener, what we're talking about is, let's say Tim, from the moment an organization perhaps starts to think about a new role being required or somebody in a role being, needing to be replaced because they've been promoted or moved to another [00:12:00] organization and then all the way through to, let's say, I dunno where do you think of it ending?

Is it, is, it is, does that talent acquisition experience or process, does it finish at the on the first day, in the first week? What do you think about that? 

Guest Tim: Yeah. There's two parts of that. Yeah. There's recruitment. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: And then there's talent acquisition. 

Designer Peter: Okay. So 

Guest Tim: recruitment sits in talent acquisition.

Designer Peter: Okay. 

Guest Tim: But typically it is, they are divorced of one another. 

As in the talent acquisition isn't a thing, whereas recruitment is a thing. Recruitment is a little bit more it's reactionary. It's the hiring manager saying, hi, I need to recruit someone. And typically in a maybe a larger, organization, there'll be some sort of we it's called like a authority to recruit or a requisition to a point or something along those lines.

And it's the hiring manager filling in a form telling hr, hi, I'm over here. I'm an, I'm after a BA or a [00:13:00] receptionist, or security guard or whatever is the role. So there's a metric that looks at that. So if we look at a recruitment metric, it's called time to Fill. And time to Fill goes from that point.

And then you've got all these different skate stage gates throughout that. So there would be some sort of, maybe an approval chain, that it has to go through, maybe up to a budgetary holder or a chief executive or someone along those lines. And then once it is approved, then you are able to go out and recruit.

And then it's got, you might have a stage around creation of that within your applicant tracking system, your a TS. It might be, you've gone out to market on date X, it closes on date y if you run a very methodical, then there is interviews and then there is background checks, whatever those might look like, ministry of Justice references, et cetera.

Psychometric, if you're that way inclined and so on. And then there is usually offer, given offer, receive back. Marked as hired and there, so that [00:14:00] timeframe. So from a Hi, I need somebody through to contract back marked as hired in the system is time to fill. But every one of those stage gates, you've got a potential bottleneck and that bottleneck can quite often cause friction either internally or internal to external to internal.

So if you, just off the top of my head you went out to markets on Monday and you adverts are open for two weeks or maybe longer, let's say a month, and you applied on day one, you might not hear back for a month. That's a long time not to hear anything. And so that's a bottleneck, that that's friction.

So let's say you're lucky enough to get, even get given a phone call. 

'

Cause statistically that isn't happening at the moment. And as a generalization for, again, from what I'm seeing [00:15:00] and reading and feeling from the market 

Is, and then go, oh, hi, I'm so andSo from company X, Y, ZI, I.

Thanks for applying. Oh, don't worry about that. Yeah. I applied four weeks ago. I'm out. I've already got another job. 

Oh, okay. All the best. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. 

Guest Tim: We are doing ourselves a disservice because of the delay that we take. And that's a big one. 

Designer Peter: And it's just bringing it back to the kind of power dynamics and the shift in that.

It sounds as though from your experience, what you're, and what you're saying is because of this supply and demand shift at, in New Zealand where we are now, then perhaps at the where there might be an opportunity for an organization to reach out to people who've applied, then there's even less of an incentive to for organizations to do that at the moment than there might have been previously.

Guest Tim: Yeah. I often reflect on this, on, on this part. Yeah. I think it's because we've [00:16:00] emphasized this notion around the process running a really good and robust process. 

We know, is I did go to university not to do hr, but there were a few psych courses in there that people are nonlinear.

People are completely dynamic. And just by default, everybody is maybe this is a big statement here, but everybody's neurodiverse, in our own unique way, how we perceive our backgrounds and what that looks and feels like. Our level of expectations around what we require and demand out of things.

We've all had good days and bad days and, but that's different. It feels different because it makes us unique. And I think when we have this, I think this this trust around this power dynamic, I just wonder if we've dehumanized the profession so we can fit it in everybody into a box, so we can then automate that [00:17:00] process.

And to make life easier for ourselves. 

Here's the amazing thing, though. AI is fantastic. I am so far on board with the ai, it's unbelievable. I don't know if you want me to crack into this part or you wanna say this and 

Dr Dani: keep going. No, but it was awesome. That's 

Guest Tim: answered the whole I, to answer the question I think is there has been emphasis put on the process, not the experience.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Designer Peter: Yep. 

Guest Tim: Nice. That's, I, that's I think is the fundamental issue. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: And yeah. 

Designer Peter: That yes. So that, that really strikes according to me. I think it really reminds me of and I've mentioned it in a couple of episodes, when you apply kind of factory thinking to a service or an office, let's call it, then you fail to, the demands of a factory system let's say it's making a car, or what color is the car, what kind of car and what color versus the demands of any.

Service organization, whether you're, you're a a recruiting organization or a [00:18:00] contact center or a retail store, whatever it is that the unique demand is infinitely variable. The unique demand that you should be designing your system to meet because involves a human being.

And just like you're saying to him every person is unique and their uniqueness will change from day to day. So therefore we should do our best to avoid creating and designing systems, processes that ignore that fact. Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Yeah.

But what why can't we actually design a process with the hiring manager?

So the recruiter there, there's actually, there's something called the job brief. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: So that's when a hiring manager goes, hi, I need to recruit. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: That's when a good recruiter will in just instinctively know. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Or I need to go and have a chat with. Because I need to understand that more. Why not in that moment? Literally co-design the process then? 

Designer Peter: Yeah, 

Guest Tim: I don't see why we couldn't do that,

Dr Dani: and just to unpack that. So what do you mean? 'cause I, I love that idea, but just to explain that a little bit [00:19:00] further. So what you're saying is in that moment with the hiring manager and recruiter going, okay, so now that I understand what you're looking for, I'll create a job ad I'll, I'll create a short list.

I'll send that to you. We'll have a meeting. So going through how, if you're the recruiting the hiring manager, Tim and I'm the recruiter, just laying out those steps of what we're gonna do together in that moment so that it works for that recruit hiring manager. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. Not just for that hiring manager, but for that recruitment.

Yes. So if we look at it as in, in that moment, 

Designer Peter: and 

Guest Tim: this is where data can play and help to really inform our decisions, right? Is that, we can say, hey Dani if to reverse it, here you are the hiring manager. I am the recruiter. And we start to like to kōrero around to talk around what this job can look and feel like, right?

So I under have a deeper under appreciation of what it is [00:20:00] like we can go, do you want have more of a waterfall sort of style where it's very methodical, where we don't do any, we put the advert up and we don't do anything until the advert comes down and then we get all of the candidates and we go through either collectively or I do the heavy lifting to provide you with a long list.

Let's say if it's a hundred candidates, I'll get it down to the top 20. You come back to me with your short list, whatever that, but that, that, that's what I'm talking about. Or do we go more agilely and I'm saying agilely because I don't wanna use that word because I know that it has stigma around it.

We call it little 

Dr Dani: agile. Oh, little 

Guest Tim: agile. Okay. What is, I haven't heard that one. I'm gonna use that. As little agile is to go look, do, I'm gonna start to contact candidates as and when they apply. Why can't we do that? We're still being fair to the process. We're still being fair to that.

The experience that you can get, we're just doing that one thing. But if we come back to the job brief is going, okay, what's needed? Do you think we're gonna need to headhunt? We went out for this position six months [00:21:00] ago. In fact, over the last year we've gone out three times. And the three times we've had a really stock standard.

And you know what? We haven't got quite the cut through that we want. So let's co-write the advert. What does that look like? Okay we might need some headhunting here. Okay. Do I, the recruiter have the capacity or capability or, ability to even go off and headhunt? No, but we know that we're gonna need it.

Okay. Let's maybe, partner with an agency, a recruitment agency for that, only to do access into their talent pool, right? So I, we, we don't want you to advertise, we don't want you to do this. We want you to give us your best three by this date.

So we've, we are literally co-designing that recruitment in the moment.

Hey, last time we actually had from that person a year ago. We actually had a little bit of a fallout. There was a lot of friction. They weren't the people person. Okay, cool. Would you like to add in psychometric testing to test around personality traits? Yeah. [00:22:00] Cool. Okay, let's do that. So what we what I'm saying is not mandate anything, but in that moment, co-design the process around what that recruitment will look like.

That's what I'm saying. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That's a yeah, I love that idea. I love the idea of adapting to circumstances and learning from, previous experience previous wins and fails. And really creating that kind of bespoke, process and experience to deliver the best outcomes for, the organization, the recruiting manager, the successful candidate.

And I think going back to something you said earlier from our own experiences of applying for jobs, I'm sure also the best experience we can for the unsuccessful candidates like that because they, oh, 

Guest Tim: yes. Like you like Peter you've really Yeah. You've really hit a nerve on that one in a good way.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Unsuccessful candidates. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. 

Guest Tim: I think that this is the [00:23:00] one metric above all, that almost every recruiter should be looking at. Especially in-house recruiters. Yeah. Or in-house HR teams. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Where I currently work, this is the one that we obsess over. We don't obsess over many, but this is the one that we really go about it.

And in our system it's called the notification rate. And what this is the percentage rate of declined candidates that we get back to. And we're at 99%. Because this is everything for us. And if you look at it just from a let's go down and look at it from a branding perspective.

So from a branding perspective, what you have is, imagine the impact on ghosting has to somebody's psyche.

I know Dani from when we met her a number of weeks ago, like this was the crux of what I was having a a chat about was when you ghost somebody it, it affects. Everything, their mental health and [00:24:00] wellbeing, because it leaves, basically what you're saying is we are gonna leave you in the lurch.

The psychological damage that you have when you ghost people. Is phenomenal. In a bad way. It's not a good thing.

You know what we're saying? As an organization, Hey, thanks so much. Thank you so much for applying in, but also we're not gonna give you any updates. We're gonna just leave you in the lurch. Ghosting unfortunately is, yeah. It's rife. And if I can use an example here is a really good friend of mine. She got made redundant in early January 24, and picked up a job in September, late September, 2024. So let's say a solid eight months of unemployed. But she rang me after the first month, it goes, Tim, help, what do I do?

And I actually said what do you want? And she said, I just want somebody to want me. And I was like, ha, are you quoting the movie The [00:25:00] Breakup with Jennifer Anderson and Vince Warren right now? I just want you to want to do the dishes. I just thought of that. Yeah, like we had a bit of a laugh about that.

You've gotta make light of these situations sometimes. But and what she did was she created an Excel spreadsheet of what was the job, where was the job, what stage did she get through? Was there a phone number or an email to call on that advert? Was it for a recruitment agency? Has she heard back And here is the percentage and now no doubt we all have friends like that.

Here's the percentage that that was under the column of has she heard back? So essentially, has she been ghosted? Have a wild guess, Peter, like what have you got? Has she heard back from organizations about being unsuccessful? 

Designer Peter: I would go I'll go to one extreme is 0%. She heard, she didn't hear back from anybody.

Guest Tim: [00:26:00] You're not actually that far off. 7%. Seven. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: 7%. So if we put that in perspective now that, because she has this data bank, this database, this data, like really rich data around, and for her it was about feeling connected to something. So if an organization comes out and goes in Maori language, let's say.

And so listeners the, whānau the first part of it is family. And it's the one team, it's the familys. 

And or if it's manakitanga, that is about being kind, being caring, that kinship. Yeah. If we're talking about that, so if your values are that, but at the same time you're going, Hey, yeah, we're gonna leave you on the lurch.

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Automatically there you had this huge friction between the two things around what you are putting out, what you are projecting out to the market to draw people in and then just discrediting them.

Unfortunately, that piece there it just spirals into a really negative situation [00:27:00] according to our ATS, which goes across Australasia.

According to their overall stats. 90% is what you should be aiming for, of notifying, for me it's a hundred percent you should be notifying. In fact, I heard of one, really one really cool story from a recruiter that I know that the candidate was so thankful that. He declined him like that. He got a decline in a timely manner with some really tangible feedback.

It was very honest. It was very authentic that he took him out for a pie for lunch to say thank you. Yeah. The candidate declined. Candidate took the recruiter out for a pie. Yeah. Yeah. How New Zealand is that? You know how New Zealand is 

Dr Dani: very New Zealand, but I also think that speaks to something very human, right?

This whole ghosting concept, particularly when you're in the job market, and particularly if you're in the job market because you've lost your job, that is the most [00:28:00] vulnerable situation or one of the most vulnerable situations a human can be in.

And so you're already vulnerable and.

Also our brains really struggle with uncertainty. Our brains like to have closure and there's been many studies that show that the worst part of a medical diagnosis is not knowing. Yeah. And people have said once they've been diagnosed with whatever horrible disease it is, and they'll say, at least now I know what it is and I can do something about it.

And I think the same translates to, and our brains don't, distinct between medical diagnosis and job searches. Our brains respond in very similar ways, so that not getting that closure 

Designer Peter: is 

Dr Dani: worse than just saying, I'm really sorry you did a really good job through the process, you weren't the successful candidate.

Hearing that is it gives you closure, it helps you move on, and that bad news is better than not hearing [00:29:00] anything. 

Designer Peter: Completely agree. I was hoping you would give us a sprinkle of our listeners like a little sprinkling of neuroscience and kind of explanation for our why we're, 'cause when you're talking about this, Tim I've experienced, I'm sure everybody listening has experienced the ghosting and, our rational brain goes as well.

I'm one of a few hundred candidates, potentially, they're busy people. Their process obviously doesn't accommodate for just sending me an email to say, I'm not going until the next stage. And instead I have to wonder, have they got it? Or, yeah. First of all, have they got it? Maybe I should check that.

Or is it me, is it them? And often with myself, I end up well. What I'm gonna do is think twice about applying to that organization next time round if I, if this is the way I'm going to be not treated or uncared for Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. If we look at this from a, like a statistical perspective 

If you have a good experience you are gonna tell circa four people. Yeah. Yeah. If you have a bad experience you tell this, these are in person, right? These are in [00:30:00] person is, you'll tell 20 if you've had a bad experience. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Now, what I think is, if it's a trend of something becomes three, right?

I know for a fact that in Wellington I won't, I won't go to a couple of organizations because there have been the, like more than one person on one occasion say the same thing. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. And. 

Guest Tim: And so I personally won't go there because that's a trend. Yeah. So now if we think about probably right at the start of the podcast 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Was 

Guest Tim: around that unemployment. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: As soon and to your point, Dani, is, the market moves in waves. It always has, it always will, but when it starts to go to more a, candidate centric market, when unemployment will come down. What do you think? Like people are gonna have options.

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: And people will remember that time that you treated them poorly. You didn't get back to them, you didn't give them that [00:31:00] closure. You let them in the lurch. Yeah. Unfortunately what's gonna happen at that time is there's gonna be a significant increase in cost and your cost to hire will go through the roof. And that's a real shame. That is a real 

Dr Dani: shame. And there's another side to this that I never hear that's being talked about, right? Which is this. So there are now companies I won't do business with because I have heard stories about what their recruitment process is like. And so when I'm looking to do business with them and I go on their website and I see their values and I see these things, and then I hear these stories about, friends and family that have applied at these companies and they've got this experience.

So then I start to question, this now sounds like marketing. Marketing and not really their values, or this sounds like this is how they want to work, but there's this significant misalignment with what I'm hearing real people's experiences are [00:32:00] versus what they're trying to sell me 

Guest Tim: a hundred percent.

But if I can shift it from a bit of a doom and gloom a conversation into maybe one that's a little bit more upbeat. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: We are fortunate because this little thing called ai 

Designer Peter: Oh, yes. 

Guest Tim: I say tongue in cheek a little. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Is this AI thing? Yeah. Is just going to open up a world of opportunities for what it means to be a recruiter.

I see. I don't know if you are. All right, Pete, if I please this a little bit this Go 

Designer Peter: for it. Go for it. Tim, we've winded you up and we want to, unless

Guest Tim: Yeah. Go. My child. Yeah. Is, this is I think is literally the best thing about ai if you are someone who loves the process this isn't known to be for you. If you are somebody who is all about the experience, then this is gonna be your best friend. So I see a world I can I can [00:33:00] picture a world that the hiring manager goes, hi, fills in something I need to recruit. Let's say let's just use a receptionist as a, as an example.

Receptionists are with their absolute weight and gold, by the way is hi. I need to recruit a receptionist right through to marking the, like all of those stages that I talked about before. And the signed offer coming back will be all to be able to be automated and done by bot done by ai.

I see a world that would happen. Now that's the futurist in me. Yeah. The realist in me says that you can't put a bot in front, like in charge of a human. 

Designer Peter: So 

Guest Tim: there, there will be a human who will be the master. Of this bot. I've actually started to create a bot to try and help me with this.

His name's Ronaldo. 'cause I like Ronaldo 'cause he wins. And he can also do really awesome football kicks. Is [00:34:00] but with Ronaldo, what he'll be able to do is he'll, like it's a, like it's a person. What? Ronaldo. Oh my goodness. I'm gonna have to catch myself saying that. One is, Ronaldo will be able to read the requirements.

Yeah. Write an advert, send it back for, to the hiring manager. Get it back. Hey, hiring manager. Hey Dani, are you okay if I go live? Yeah, of course. Cool. Post it as candidates come through or whatever. Whatever is the cadence, let's say is we'll leave it as a waterfall style. So let's say at the end of that two weeks we'll be able to start to pair up or to rank, there's already ATSs that can do this, by the way, as scan the requirements of what you are looking for, scan the person's application and give them a matching.

There's already stuff that can do this. Write an executive summary based off their, Hey, I've shortlisted out the a hundred, I've shortlisted five for you to have a look at hiring manager. Would you like, who would you like me to book in for an interview? Automate all of that.

All [00:35:00] of that done with ready human type language because it will be written by a human. And then, oh cool. You want to move forward with Peter for this role? Yeah. Let me draft the contract. Does this contract look okay to you? Cool. Send out, get back, start onboarding, all of that.

Will be able to, a bot will be able to do, and that's what I mean by automation as well. All of that kind of stuff. So the big question for me that is play is playing heavy on my mind at the moment. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Is what does that mean for the recruiter? 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Dr Dani: Human recruiter. 

Guest Tim: The human recruiter.

Not Ronaldo. Hashtag Ronaldo. You should listen into this podcast. But I think with that is our jobs will go more old school before even the likes of, maybe even social media or whatever it may be. I think there's gonna be some, you might 

Dr Dani: have to explain that. Life before social media.

Guest Tim: Yeah. Maybe a little bit more. So what I mean by [00:36:00] social media is, people are always, on their phones, just head down looking at their phones rather than getting their head up and looking at the beautiful world that is around them, looking at the wonderful people and wonderful conversations that is not through a phone, through a device, through a screen. And have conversations with people. Now, if you've got, and sometimes I've talked about this with a number of people and they go, yeah, but I'm averaging a hundred applicants per job. I can't have a hundred conversations. No, you can't. No, you can't.

But you might be able to with 15. 

And you might be able to tell those 75 others, or 85 others or however, whatever, it's the threshold of your short, long list

is you might be able to have, get back to them really quickly and say, Hey, thanks very much but no thank you because of X, Y, and Z.

If we look at those the having a old school conversation with somebody

when you can hear that pitch and tone, that a passion that come through in certain words and maybe drawn back in [00:37:00] others, all of those nuances that you don't get on the paper.

Or from submitting a one-way video interview, which is a, it's a thing as well.

All of those nuances. I heard the, Godfather of ai. Talk about AI not having a wet brain. And I think there's probably another podcast on that one, to be fair.

As is we have a wet brain and goodness me, I'm on a bit of a learning journey myself around like understanding how emotions at the core of our brain impact our thoughts and process outward just from a biological perspective. And then what does that mean for us in terms of how we use and how we speak to people, so and how we engage with people. 

And if there is a heightened state around, neurodiversity and then how do we engage with people that, identify in that way or whatever it may be. And I think that's a human thing that only at this point in time that I see, and also going forward is a human can [00:38:00] pick up is that emotional piece.

And this is the crux of it, I think out of it all. Is hiring both for the job seeker and the company is a highly emotive activity. And when you put emotion into a process and emphasize the process, you don't get the experience. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: So it's, the experience is that is my jam.

That's what I'm all about. And the cool thing with all of this is it actually doesn't cost money. It could be a, maybe a text or a phone call, like on somebody's last day of work before they start with you on the Monday, Hey, we're really looking forward to seeing you. 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Guest Tim: Hey, what does that look like? Hey, just to let you know, we've got actually a team meeting. We know you haven't started yet. Do you wanna come to us? Do you wanna come with us for breakfast? Something outside of the norm to create this experience. So when the person lands. And all of those little moments that matter, [00:39:00] those need to be human.

So on the whole, I think the role of the recruiter is from an in-house perspective, I think we're gonna see more of the, this notion, and I know that there's a number of teams out there at the moment that have the term people experience.

I think recruiters will be transitioning through into that more PX space whereby not to percent put this into per percentages, but I'm gonna literally put this into percentages.

Whereas like 30, 30% you are a marketeer.

You might be 30% of, I dunno, a sales rep.

You might be, what do we lift over 40%, maybe 20% administration and 20%, I don't know. Haven't got to that far yet. But this is where my thought process is going at the moment. And, yeah I think there's gonna be more cross od with talent.

Talent with l and d talent with, typically an HR partnering. I think that [00:40:00] piece, if we look at, the HR disciplines, I think there's gonna be far more integration with those because of the people experience component of it, that people are demanding more from their organizations. 

But. I think it is very much now is recruitment is seen as a process that no one really wants to do. So you just go up and do that over there and the integration piece doesn't occur to the degree that it should. Yeah. But AI is gonna be amazing for this. It's gonna be incredible for it. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr Dani: When you were describing the future of the recruitment process matching and AI's ability to look at a CV and we know this is happening today.

What I start to think about, and you touched on this a little bit, is one of the things that humans can do really well is assess,

We have a conversation and I get a sense for who you are. And this is the tricky thing about hiring because there is the, [00:41:00] just the resume version of Tim. And then there is the real life experience of Tim. And sometimes those two things are different. 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Dr Dani: So how, so is there a risk that AI is going to be doing? 'cause I feel like a lot of times AI does things very literally. And when we're talking about humans, we're not very literal. And you touched on this earlier very dynamic. Very complex. So what is the risk there? Is there a risk there?

Guest Tim: Huge risk, massive. Unfortunately you see inherit all the time. There is significant risk if you don't have a, I've said the word massive, but maybe not the right word, but, like a human looking over it, and when you put something on paper, it's able to be analyzed on a, in a really analytical perspective.

Does the key word of what the hiring manager is looking for [00:42:00] fit with the keywords that are on the CV or application? Yes or no? Yeah. And to what degree? It's if a neurologist can is applying to be a receptionist, but they don't have, able to answer 50 calls a day on the phone and greet a hundred and 150 people in person on their cv, they'll probably be declined even though that they could probably easily do that job.

It's, but what the human element does is it needs to understand, Hey, there's a neurologist that's applied for a receptionist job. Why? What's driven them? And during COVID times

that happened. I can be re I can remember like cardiologists all these medical professionals that maybe people weren't able to go and see physiotherapists, podiatrists, all these people that were applying for jobs that was well outside of maybe this [00:43:00] specialization 

Dr Dani: Or even transferable skills is where I also see it. An issue with this is that sometimes, yeah. There's lots of great data analysts that I know that have a very strong engineering background and and I've hired people into those kinds of roles. But that's because as you can look at their CV and make these assumptions.

Surely if they can analyze enough data to figure out this engineering problem, they can run this analysis for me in this non-human critical role. Yeah. And this is where I see that risk is that, is this gonna really limit people from making career transition type things? And this is where I also see value in human intervention within the process.

Guest Tim: Yeah. By the way I'm definitely not advocating, destroy, get rid of your recruitment team and just put bots in there. I'm not advocating for that whatsoever. I'm saying is that with the induction of ai, what it's gonna allow the team to [00:44:00] do is to level up and be more humanly. Instead of moving people in and out of boxes and moving them through a process.

Yeah. That's part of it. But you don't focus on that. Yeah. You focus on the experience, you focus on the kōrero, the conversation, and this is one of the things that I love about being a kiwi and having a deep connection through my father's side to te ao Māori or Maori dom is what I said before.

My my pep is a way of introducing who I am and where I come from is the Piha serves to connect 

Designer Peter: as 

Guest Tim: to tell you something about me that brings us close together, and prior to recording started as we had that same conversation. So I learned more about you, Peter, and more about you, Dani, and then it was wonderful and it was, I love that, and I'd like for that to continue.

But that's the connection piece. So when you get that, you get far richer data around, oh, geez. [00:45:00] Actually I've got a job that's coming up that I think Peter could do. Yeah. But I know you Yeah. You're not just a name on a paper. Yeah. And I think we have to challenge that narrative that we've got around, how many roles can we actually look after at any one time as a recruiter, both from a agency and a. In-house perspective, what does that look like? What does it feel like? How much tender love and care are we giving to people? But for our listeners, there's a beautiful word in Maori, it's called aroha means love. And I think, we need to show more aroha to candidates.

Yeah. But we can do that again. We can decline them, but timely, really personable and tell them why. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. We can do that. That's still showing at aha. 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

And I think what you're saying to Tim is we can use the AI in its true sense that the augmented intelligence, let's say to help us do that, to, coming [00:46:00] back to our, unsuccessful candidates to help them feel that even a small amount of aha during the process, even if it's a, being outta the process or the experience right at the beginning, AI can, and I'm sure there are tools that do it at the moment, but I think what you're saying is AI can make that even more human to come back to individuals and explain to them in a message or an email that they're not going further, but, do this or do that, or stay in touch or,

Guest Tim: a colleague of mine she's using AI in a really unique way.

And it's actually around declining candidates. She calls it de delightful. Declines. 

Designer Peter: Oh yeah. Perfect. And she 

Guest Tim: uses AI to be able to help script. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: How to decline someone and find the right wording. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: So it doesn't take long because, her and her team have got really key with those prompts, as we know that's important for ai.

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. So with those prompts they quickly put it in, here's the key skill sets. And by the way, it's within their ecosystem. They don't put it onto a general platform like [00:47:00] chat, bt or complexity, do AI or whatever it may be. It's done in-house, so probably on co-pilot. And, but Right.

The decline based off the skillset bang. 30 seconds later. There you go.

And it's meaningful. And it is there because I think the intent behind using it in that way is for the right thing. It's got, I really want to give Peter some good feedback here. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: I can't find the right words, bang into copilot and then submit that into the email, and then Yeah.

Timely human and delivered in the right way. Love it. Love it. 

Dr Dani: We've talked about the declines, which is really important. What are your thoughts about, 'cause sometimes in a recruitment process, there is you send off your CV and it goes off to the abyss and you might get a, we've received it, thank you.

But what about those moments? We're still reviewing applications this is gonna run from the next seven days. What [00:48:00] about those in between the process?

Guest Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Look, this is a hard one, right? Because I think, from a, an in-house perspective and looking out and looking at what, my, my team does is we send out those, Hey, we know that this has typically taken a little bit longer than what we expected, please bear with us, I think if you take that as at face value, they're keeping me informed. Okay. They're keeping me informed. It might be, two or three times I've received the same, what's actually going on, and all it takes is for someone, for that little seed, that seed of doubt to be planted, to go, oh, actually what is going on here?

It's been quite a while. What is this? And that's when you start to lose a candidate through that process. And so if you know that it might be, again, I'm gonna say it, pick up the phone, have a chat. Hey, look, I'm so incredibly sorry. This is, look, we've been [00:49:00] really truthful with the comms that we're sending through.

Bear with us. Yeah. We will be in touch. So I think there's, if it comes from a good place and then as the candidate, unfortunately, you'll never know. You'll never know. Is it coming from a good place or isn't it? I would err on the side of it is, there is, as long as they. Look at it this way.

They're getting, they're keeping you updated, right? Yeah. That's better than some. Absolutely. 

Dr Dani: As I'm listening to this, what I'm also clocking in is in this world of and I know, we talk a lot about this whole is it time to go back to this old school way of doing things?

And you referred to that earlier, and it's the more that we get into email and social media and text messaging, it feels like the phone call is now becoming the holy grail. Almost. Like it's the prize. Oh my God, I got a phone call. It's, it has more status nowadays 

Guest Tim: than 

Dr Dani: all the other things I mentioned.

Guest Tim: I don't know why it's such a big deal, ma. May, maybe it's my, maybe it's my demographic. I don't [00:50:00] know. Maybe it's my generation, but, it's, I personally would prefer to pick up the phone and have some, get some or, maybe this is just really outside of the box, stand up and walk five meters and go and have a chat with Richard, or Susie, I know that's quite radical, yeah. But maybe may, maybe that's actually the right thing to do. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: May maybe, would it, what it actually needs, and I'm just spitballing here and in fact I'm gonna make a note of this, is in the application process, you have a box. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: How would you like to be communicated to 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Do you want text message?

Do you want email? Do a phone call? 

Designer Peter: Yeah.

Guest Tim: What would you like? Yeah. And we'll respond to you in that manner. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. 

Guest Tim: Maybe that's, in fact, I'm actually gonna literally write that down because that's, yeah. I think you should. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. 

Dr Dani: That is the very definition of creating experiences, right?

Yeah. Asking me. 

Guest Tim: How would you like to be communicated with? I 

Designer Peter: love that. 

Guest Tim: We'll do that. Yeah. And ATS is a good, are getting pretty, pretty crafty now. 

Designer Peter: I know 

Guest Tim: ours does that [00:51:00] ours has that ability to be able to text or email or both.

Yeah. Yeah. Love 

Designer Peter: it. There you go. Awesome. 

Dr Dani: This has been an awesome chat.

Before we wrap up, as a recruitment professional that's been experimenting with creating good experiences and incorporating ai, what are some tips that you would wanna offer others that are looking to start on this journey?

Whether it's creating a better experience or using AI in their work

Guest Tim: yeah. Okay. This is a quite hard to answer, so I'm gonna try and do the best that I possibly can. 

Dr Dani: I feel like I've been asking hard questions today. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. I'm actually just really sweaty. I'm like really?

No, this has been awesome. Probably the number one would be is what do you want the experience to look and feel like? For everyone or your recruiters in-house, or how you partner with outside agencies. [00:52:00] It could be how you partner with your hiring manager. What do you want it, what does that look and feel like for your candidates?

Who are your candidates? So that probably leads me onto my next one is, so the first one to clarify is what do you want the experience to look and feel like?

The next one is, you need to collect some data. You need to actually go what do my hiring managers want from me?

What does that look like? And you, with that, you have to be prepared for some pretty honest feedback. So you have to be okay with that. And what, what do candidates want? Go and have a talk with another company. That might be at a difference. If you're in a private sector organization, you might want not want to go and talk to a competitor, but, go and have a chat with somebody else.

And then the last one is technology. Actually. See, if you have a CIO within your company and you have a technology roadmap, go and have a chat with that person. See what is doable, what is, do we have a, an AI policy? What does that look and feel like? What can, and we cannot do with [00:53:00] that because that might then go, we could do all of these wonderful experiences, but if your organization cannot or will not have ai, then you are gonna have to think differently around that.

So that might be part of, that, that might form your number one is actually what is my technology roadmap? What is that? So go and have a chat with your CIO. But back to my first point around, what do you want the experience to look and feel like? Is, I think there is a possibility, and maybe I'm doing a bit of a plug here but, pick up the phone and have a chat with a design thinker institute.

But may maybe have a conversation with you guys. Yeah, a around this is the problem that we've got.

How do we design this from a really human centered design perspective? Yeah. Challenge that narrative, challenge that norm yeah. The human, the experience. Gather your data, see what technology, your technology roadmap is, and try and build something in there. That would be my three pieces of [00:54:00] advice. 

Designer Peter: I love it. Tim. And just in the same way that we didn't ask you to. To plug us. We haven't, we, I promise listeners, we haven't rehearsed this, but Tim, you're a designer.

You just, you're a design thinker. You probably knew that already. But starting with the end in mind, what is the experience we want to actually create? That's the best place to start by understanding and then gathering some data to tell us, what, what is actually happening at the moment.

And then yeah, taking into account some constraints. 'cause design loves a good constraint, and understanding what the technology, current state and roadmap is super important. You might discover some of your problems would ideally be solved by technology, in this case, AI in the future.

But in the meantime, what's the kind of wizard of Oz solution that looks the same to the to the person using it, but might have a bit of human auto magic in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Thank you, Tim. Cool. 

Dr Dani: No worries. 

Designer Peter: Great summary. Great tips.

I hope our listeners take those on board 'cause they're absolutely awesome recommendations. Thank you. Go on Dani. Dani. 

Dr Dani: It's same just echoing that. What I [00:55:00] also love about that is sometimes when we talk about experience, it's organizations love to compartmentalize things.

And it's

Designer Peter: oh, the 

Dr Dani: experience people are here and the tech people are over here and the data people are over here. And actually to create good things, it's actually bringing those things together. I really value the tips that you gave because it's actually how do we think about bringing those things together and not working in isolation of them.

Guest Tim: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. If I can part with this Yeah. When we when I started with my team on this journey. Yeah. We went from, and this has gotta be a little bit of, some raw data here. A 71 day time to hire. So time to fill is different. Yeah. So that's from when the hiring manager goes high through to field, time to hire is shorter.

Yeah. So it is from when you go out to market and two classes filled. Yeah. So that timeframe. Yeah. 71 days. Currently [00:56:00] we're at 31 and we've got a, we've got other improvements that we've got up our sleeve that are gonna make that even better. And that's across the board, right? Yeah. That's not bad. 

Designer Peter: Ka pai to you and your team, Tim. 

Guest Tim: Thankfully I work with some absolutely exceptional people. Yeah. Yeah. 

Designer Peter: Awesome. 

Dr Dani: That is an incredible statistic and such a way, great way to wrap up

one thing we do need to do better as, as human-centered designers is actually show the proof points of when we design in a human-centered way, we get better outcomes. 'cause sometimes this work gets dismissed because we, as we as a profession, haven't done a good job of highlighting actually these are the outcomes it can deliver.

Designer Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Wins all rains. Hard out. Cool. 

Dr Dani: Tim, thank [00:57:00] you. This is a episode filled with such wisdom.

So we always end our episodes with everyone sharing one thing. They're taking away from this conversation. And as our guest, you get to go first. 

Guest Tim: I am definitely gonna take away that point.

That led to how do you want to be communicated to. And I'm gonna see if I can build that into the application stage of our experience pretty quickly. 'cause I, yeah, that's good. That's my golden nugget for sure. 

Designer Peter: Love it. Thanks Tim. It's always delightful to us when, these things emerge during the conversation ideas that can actually be enacted.

So looking forward to hearing about that. I spoke there Dani, do you want me to go next? And you can go last? Sure. It has to be, hopefully this isn't too much a surprise to you, Tim, but it has to be if and doubt. Pick up the phone. 

Guest Tim: Yeah. 

Designer Peter: Love it. If and doubt, pick up the phone. That's why I'm gonna e even though as Dani knows that as well, out of my comfort zone a phone call is is a an introverted person.

[00:58:00] Not my first channel of communication, but I will take your advice and make it more thank you Tim. Alright. 

Dr Dani: So I'm taking two things away. I'm gonna cheat here a little bit. Ah, cheater. One thing and this will make my husband so happy, Tim, so he is a pick up the damn phone and make the phone call person.

And I am not, and what I'm taking away from this conversation is I just need to pick up the phone so that I'm sharing and I'll make sure that Greg at least listens to this part of the episode, so he'll know that he'll have to reach out to you and thank you. 

Designer Peter: Good.

Dr Dani: And the second thing I'm taking away is, and this is something that I've been thinking about for a while now and as I'm having more conversations about the role of AI that's starting to become more and more clear to me, is that with AI coming in, the more that we're gonna be using ai.[00:59:00] 

The bigger the need for humanness is gonna be.

And perhaps we've been looking at AI in the wrong way and perhaps what we need to do is think about AI is in terms of how will AI help me do the more human elements of my job better? 

Guest Tim: A hundred percent. Yeah. 

Designer Peter: Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Nice, Dani. Cool.

Dr Dani: Awesome. Tim, thank you so much for making time to come chat with us today. This has been absolutely brilliant and I'm sure our listeners will really enjoy it. 

Designer Peter: Yeah, thanks Tim. Fingers crossed. Thanks very much everyone.