Well, welcome to this episode of the Air we Breathe podcast, and I'm very excited to have Deb Benfield here today. And, deb, why don't you just jump in and tell us all a little bit, or a lot, about yourself?
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you. Thank you for having me here. I'm excited to talk to you and your audience about a topic that I'm very passionate about. I am a risk-rediation and I have been for more than 35 years and the entire time I've been specializing in trying to support women in healing their relationships with their bodies eating movement.
Speaker 2:I got really lucky early in my career and developed relationships with therapists because of the way that I work and got a supervisor right off the bat that was a therapist specialized in eating disorders. So I just got really lucky and that this is what I've done my entire career. I didn't have to deal with many of the things my colleagues have to deal with when they have to do all the diet, culture stuff and find their way out. So I'm grateful for that. And then, when I'm 64, when I turn 60, I got a little bit more curious about what the research was saying about how we care for ourselves to age in the way we would like, and got hit really hard again with reminders of how loud diet and wellness culture is, especially around the conversation of menopause and aging. So I just really got all in the research and realized that I didn't need to be cleaned up for to be safe for consumption for women.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I've been doing is creating more and more programming around how we can talk about this aging the way we would like to without getting sucked back in to all the diet and wellness culture mess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's so interesting because I will see little things. I know you see all the same things, like when I look at Apple news, and it will have you know, I guess there are outfits over 50 that you should be wearing, or haircuts or or, and I still, you know, because I'm 52 and I still sometimes would be like, oh, vitamins for over 50. And I was like, wait, that's me, that's me, okay, god. But it is always feel so silly when I see it and I always understand clickbait and people having to create content, but I can't imagine like for you trying to weed through all of that messaging because, I think it's certainly so easy to like.
Speaker 1:oh my God, oh so I need more of a Capri. Oh well, look at this I need a blouse and Capris now, apparently.
Speaker 2:And another player. That's a little longer. I think you have to do your body parts.
Speaker 1:Wow, well, and I appreciate your work because I think it's so interesting how we just don't learn anything about aging and my exposure has never been academically certainly. And it was like when I was coaching a lot and I was probably 40-ish and I would just have so many women talking about menopause and the change in their body and they were just so frustrated and symptoms and I was just like wait, what I mean? I was like how is this a surprise? But I also I feel like I didn't give it the gravity, certainly, that those women deserved. It was just like almost hard to believe. Like, really, you sure it's all this stuff, yeah, which that's a very gross take on my part, but it was really hard to digest that without having like, well, yeah, I definitely read about that in school or as a coach, you learn this or that, like I would never learn to anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we only hear like the top layer and it's all like things to be afraid of, it's there is no counter like. This is a powerful surge of opportunity to. We can get into that if you want to, but it's a wonderful opportunity to get out of diadem wellness culture to just finally like kick it to the curb. If that's something that you still need to do, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The big pressure, of course, is to still control. This is the same old, same old message about controlling your size and shape. Except like height, except like work harder, work harder. You must work harder, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And. I think that's where the crash comes for so many people, because they're exhausted already, because usually there is some work commitment, family commitments could be parents and kids and then you know, then you're also like feeling all of this pressure to well, make sure your hair doesn't thin out and make sure you don't gain any weight. You know, and it's like, and that's where I think yeah. I think a lot of people are like okay, I'm done, I just can't do it because it's the bandwidth for caring about a lot of it.
Speaker 2:True, and that's the part of the gift is like well, maybe we don't care about the next idea about outfits that we should wear to certain age.
Speaker 1:Maybe, you can let me know. Yeah, well, let's jump into my first question, which is what about diet? Culture is making your eyes roll the hardest right now.
Speaker 2:You know I have to have a hardest time with that question because the list of 12 things pops up in my mind.
Speaker 1:We can make a 12 part series.
Speaker 2:Well, considering my clientele, the biggest message is like how very, very, very, very, very bad carbs are. As far as like straight up diet culture. The underlying message that is the most upsetting to me is like the idea of letting yourself go and the judgment around letting yourself go when you age, and that's kind of like a broader. You may want something more specific, like carbs, but the broader concept of like you must white knuckle harder around your body and your choices around your body as you age, instead of allowing yourself to let go of the oppressive beauty standards and diet rules that you've been living with more than half of your adult life I mean so many decades now, right by the time you hit menopause.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, certainly have worked with many, many women who are taken to Weight Watchers and elementary school. So even before they were 10, they were starting to diet. And well, I love that topic because even just on its face it's such an insult Like Debra's really let herself go Like, which is just so interesting, that the term is like that is not good. So where do you feel like this messaging comes from?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it is I don't know if you want to get into patriarchy, but it's like love me some patriarchy talk concept that we must control these women.
Speaker 2:There's something about the concept of control.
Speaker 2:I did this little side project with myself decades ago where I just tracked every time I heard the word control and amic that was marketed toward women and it was mind boggling the concept that Women must be controlled and that we as women can't, can, we don't feel like we Can trust ourselves with pleasure, with food that tastes yummy.
Speaker 2:The concept of hyperpowerful food now is such a big conversation in the anti-aging world and the longevity research and I just feel like overall, the message that we must put our effort towards striving toward control is very damaging and it sets up this lack of trust in your own body. That, I think, is the ultimate disorder that we carry and the also the ultimate way of empowering ourselves. As they start to shift out of that and Look toward caring for ourselves instead of trying to control ourselves, a lot starts to unfold there. It's a beautiful, powerful opportunity that we have with us all day long, every day, because thoughts about Should are actually about control, and every time you notice that you can go wait a minute. What if I just made a choice around caring for myself?
Speaker 1:so I feel the way I want to feel. Mmm, that's so good. The should is your trigger to think like, oh, there's some sort of rule. Mmm. Well, who do you think benefits the most from us controlling everything?
Speaker 2:Well, we can be totally pushed, totally made mute by our starvation and by our distraction and by our hyper-focus on these programs, to try to control ourselves, which makes us, you know, easy to manipulate interesting and then on that like, what do you feel?
Speaker 1:like are like the bigger in the smaller harms that come from being controlled and manipulated?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I am Getting ready to talk more about diet culture when I answer that question, because I think the biggest issue that is harmful is the rupture between us and our relationship with our bodies, that the way that we are Are at the serial relationship with our bodies. That's the ultimate harm. I think that diet culture I think that's what comes is when we look outside of ourselves for a rule set, that we lose that beautiful potential, trust and connection with our own bodies that can help us navigate. And I think that's especially true when you're aging, because you really need to be listening to your body. And there's also I can feel myself talking about much broader topics.
Speaker 2:But there's also this thing that I believe that our girlhood self got shut down during puberty because we're so all of a sudden focused on external gaze and pleasing and maybe staying safe, and Then when you get in the pod, you get back Every claim, your growth itself. It's awesome, because then you don't care about the gaze anymore and you're like whoa. An opportunity to reconnect with your authentic girlhood self Starts to open up. If you can Not get pulled in the diet culture again, if you can say fuck you and Move toward yourself, the power is. It's a great it's. This is a really important time, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:It's like a choice to make and I think it's interesting because I think of certainly different subsets, because I know for me I could control my body for a long time until I got sick and then I had my thyroid room and I couldn't control it. And so I think there's a subset of people that enter menopause that they've been successfully really controlling their body, and then certainly another subset that have been just in full battle. Certainly this starts at puberty, like as your body changes, and then that's when I think diet culture Really, and especially talking to a lot of people, that's when diet culture really gets loud of like oh, oh, this is bad, you need to get started on your controlling quest. Do you see a difference in the women that you're working with of who kind of like were able to control their body, but then who has just been battling the whole time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I see a mix. I think I see people who have been chronically restricting or over exercising, manipulating, manipulating to Keep a body that fits their idea of a good body, and then menopause hits and there is Sometimes a feeling that they, what they have been doing doesn't work, in quotes, that they can't do it anymore because it's not working the same way. And so that can go lots of different ways. That can either go toward, like Further manipulating, getting more intense and extreme, and our culture certainly loves that. More extreme, yes, a minute fasting combined with restricting, or, course, combined with combined, yeah, it's just like layers of Rural sense, so that can happen, which, if you didn't already have a disorder getting passed, perfectly, what is going to happen right in front of you. It's just like happening right in front of you. It's so sad.
Speaker 2:Or there are people that go, yeah, this isn't working, I'm gonna be free now. I'm gonna like liberate myself. So that's another way. And then there are folks who get really frightened because they've done this, like Fuck it. Diet, so to speak, where they have like them. But that doesn't feel good either. That's really not. I mean, sometimes that's one way to get out of your restriction and your rules, but that doesn't feel good. So you've got to make your way toward a more attuned way of caring for yourself, which is what I really love to do and, by the way, I have some issues with intuitive eating. So I don't say intuitive eating very often. I think that's what we're also talking about, but I have and we can talk about if you want to and do it. A meeting is not available for a lot of people, so I don't want people to feel like they're broken when they can't do what they think intuitive eating is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's because I I think also and not just from a recovery standpoint, I don't think there's any. Here's the way, or you know, here is what, like Now, you're doing, because it's almost you fall back into. Well, I'm doing it the best way and I'm following all the rules, because I was talking to a client I had years ago, ten years ago. We were just messaging and she's like you don't talk as much about because I used to.
Speaker 1:I wrote a book on emotional eating and talking about Finding your triggers as you look for your relationship with food and almost caring for that younger self who was like, okay, well, food can soothe me, but what do I do now? What can I do to take care of myself? And I was like I know I don't do and I was like and I think it's certainly the field can be very fussy about what is right and what is wrong and I don't ever really care for those I don't know. I've seen some banishments of people who are doing it wrong and, to your point, I think that are many options. What do you feel like? Your biggest beef with it is that you don't find the works.
Speaker 2:Well, I just had so many clients that couldn't access hunger sensation and I just really Want them to understand that there's a reason for that. Trauma can really sever that capacity and.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it can't be reconnected, but sometimes that takes many years, and Chronic dieting and eating disorders, I mean they're all kind of the same thing actually, because I think both eating disorders and chronic dieting which covered same thing are traumatic experiences. So Many people just can't quickly Notice their hunger sensation and I think I just don't want people to feel like that's another thing on the list that they can't do Right, that they're doing wrong, that their bodies aren't doing Right. Yeah, so that's I just I was careful with that. I think it's just more new?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure, because you, yes, which I think I mean everything always is, and I think that's why it is very hard to get it down to sort of like a sound bite, because I don't know that. And certainly like, when you're working especially one-on-one with people like, everybody's circumstances are different, their bodies are different, their budgets are different, like, and so there is never like, and I think I work in Corporate wellness a lot and that so many of the solutions are formulaic and I'm always like well, this I mean even within a Company, and that's like so this is for the highest wage worker and the lowest wage worker. Like, oh it's, there's so many. This is for, like, first shift and third shift. Like, there's so many variations.
Speaker 2:So you feel like it One day versus the next day, or one stage of life versus another stage of life. There was a lot of shift in change.
Speaker 1:So you're always really looking to bolster the self-efficacy and so that they're feeling successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and lots of curiosity about like huh, I noticed that I don't feel it's hungry today as I did yesterday, or Like I'm feeling really fuzzy and I don't feel like I have enough energy today. I wonder what that's about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as much flexibility and curiosity as possible Got you, and I think I always love good questions like that because I think it is. Certainly there are a lot of places where like, oh, here's what, oh, here's what that could be. But I think, like your approach of making sure you're asking like what do you think this could be? What do you feel like is going on? Yeah, what's your body saying today? Yeah, yeah, I think that is certainly more empowering in the long run, which is the tenet of coaching, and I always know, especially with my sons, like trying to, you know, like kicking back in my head and like, okay, make it open-ended. Because I have one son as a yes or no kind of guy and I'll be like, okay, hang on, hold on, make it open-ended. So then there's some thinking and conversation that goes on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure. And I think remembering that what diet culture taught us and what wellness culture also teaches us is to look outside of us, to look at some sort of like box, it's tick or things to count. It's really feel so comfortable right to follow some external rules and it turns out that doesn't work too great. It turns out that backfires quite a bit yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you find like really helpful for helping people understand what they're doing is a rule.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I track with the shoulds. I get real curious about how that shows up, and so you have to have a bit of awareness of your thoughts. You have to have a bit of an awareness of how your inner dialogue sounds. So there has to be a little bit of effort toward development of awareness of how you're talking to yourself.
Speaker 1:And that's not that easy.
Speaker 2:Our life will set us up for connection and curiosity about our own thoughts, so there may have to be some practices. One of the things that I love about the work that I do is creating practices for each of the people I work with, so that they can get out of just the thinking piece and dropping into applying concepts and curiosities to their daily lives, so that there are small steps that shift and change them. So that they can look back and go oh yeah, don't be myself up as much anymore. I am more compassionate toward myself or I am not letting myself get to that starved place. I am stopping for those things, or small, that require that inner curiosity, and I think the shoulds will tell you an awful lot, you feel and I'm just as guilty as any.
Speaker 2:But I feel I've showed myself like crazy. It's more about like being productive or like meeting my goals or getting so much work done. You know that kind of stuff. There's always going to be places that we're getting really pushy with ourselves and that's all about. You know these external rules that we think we need to follow or guidelines that we think we need to show up for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is so helpful because I remember when I first started recovery and the therapist asked me how I chose my dinner and I was like, well, obviously according to what workout I'm doing tomorrow, but had never crossed my mind like this is a rule and also this is incredibly unhelpful.
Speaker 1:But I think stepping out of certain things, like it was challenging for me to see because it was so ingrained I mean so much safety in it for me, but it's so ingrained that like it had everything, had that big, obvious, well, obviously, obviously this is the way you would do it. And it was like, oh, because I mean it was almost when you can remember having a realization because it was that big, like I can still remember the whole thing and that's where and I guess to your point of being mindful and curious and asking yourself and I've had people really talk about great questions since I started the podcast and outside of the podcast, even down to one of my girlfriends was talking about clothes and because she is in higher education and this is the way a professional dresses- that's a good example, Well yeah, and so it was really interesting because she likes pastels and florals, but this is not what we wear as an administrator in higher education.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting to kind of watch people start to ask those questions of like, well, I don't know what happens if I wear yellow. Do I get fired? Nobody takes me seriously anymore.
Speaker 2:Yes, those have been interview questions for me when I decided to take jobs, if I had to wear like clothes to choose, or if I had to wear back in the day pantyhose. Yeah, oh my gosh, no bare legs allowed.
Speaker 1:That's funny. They're like do you have any questions, deb? And you're like so I do have a few. Let me get out my Santa Claus scroll of questions about my wardrobe.
Speaker 2:Well, what would it be employed here if I could wear my own clothes? Well, it sounds like Virginia is another way to track with that. It's like anything that feels like you have to do it or you get really uncomfortable. Yeah, though, noticing those patterns.
Speaker 1:That is good, because I always talk about like key signs or rigidity and anxiety, and I work out in a gym that is full stop diet culture central. I'm like the nut that does things differently, maybe not working as hard, or certainly eats foods when as most of them don't, and it's really like interesting watching, like the rigidity just in conversations, of talking about things, and the where you can just tell like, well, obviously, obviously I was gone all weekend and you know, had a lot, so I've got to do, you know, this this week to make up for it and I like why you you don't like no, I do Okay, which I'm not. I'm not, I'm not in any sort of coaching, I'm just a person. So I'm always like I do actually keep my mouth shut sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I realize energy outlay is not necessarily wanted.
Speaker 1:You didn't ask for my opinion, so I'll just talk about it to myself. Yeah, so let's get into so two physical things that people can do and then two mindset shifts, because I always like I love a to do myself and, I think, obviously changing our minds about all of these pieces on aging, because sometimes, like I look at my decision to grow my hair out like of gray hair, many colored my hair diligently until the pandemic and it was so interesting how hard it was. I mean I love it now. It's so easy. It was so emotionally difficult for me to do that. It almost seems sillier now, but it was like letting go of a lot of here's me as a brunette. I'm young and vital and, admitting to the world I'm 52, clearly I'm 52, but I think it's really interesting when you look at this combination of mindset shifts and physical shifts because they have to go in tandem.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know that's the way I think about things is how can you move from concept to practice and how do they relate to each other? But I just have to say about your hair story that let's have a perfect example of she's a little stuff ago and how freeing it was and is and how much easier it is without the have to of saying, with a certain way, of having hair your head. I mean, it's laughable. How is so much pressure?
Speaker 1:It seems very silly now, and it's interesting when I talk to my friends, because I have a couple of friends that grew they're gray out too and then other friends that say exactly what I used to say of like, oh, I'll be at the retirement home with my box jet black hair.
Speaker 2:And you know we'll do it both ways. Yes, yeah, so physical things. My favorite is I like to come up with practices that relate to body relationship more than anything else. So one of my favorites is the mindset shift behind. It is what happens when you stop looking at your body and start to live in your body. So one of the practices that can support that shift is when you get dressed in the morning just as an experiment.
Speaker 2:What would it be like to walk around, take a seat, maybe even squat for something in the clothing you choose, way before you look at yourself in the mirror, how do you feel in the clothing? I mean, you could just dance around. I mean, what would it feel like for you to be in your body in those clothes? First, to see if, like, this is good, this is what I'm going to wear today, versus looking at yourself in mirror as just a practice and see what I mean. You can kind of see what it means to be in your body Instead of looking at your body just as a little thing, and it's not easy. It's not easy, it depends on how you usually get dressed, but that's a physical practice that offers support for mindset shift. That's my top of my list.
Speaker 1:No, I think that, which I love, that and Dacey Gillespie from Mindful Closet talks about, like working with her clients to we're not looking in the mirror yet, like how does it feel, how does it fit? And I was so delighted because Laura that works with me, she's a dance teacher, also for the littles, and so she started with their costumes when they have a recital, that they weren't looking in the mirror but like how's it feel? Like can you bend, can you stretch, can you jump? And really talking to I think it's almost always little girls, but girls about how their clothing feels and I was like, oh my gosh, laura, you're introducing a concept that they will likely never hear anywhere else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that's a oh yeah, so I think that's such a great and like, what an act of rebellion to like. I don't know how do my clothes feel like like the fabric, how's it fit? And it seems like it would be so helpful also for people who are still wearing things that don't fit well. Yeah, too small, too tight, too clingy, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's another one of she's let herself go. Things because she's let herself go is such a celebration like she's literally comfortable, she's let herself be, she's let herself like let go of the oppression, she's let her stuff let go of the show. It's like it's another way to live that out and what do you feel like the mindset shift?
Speaker 1:Because it almost seems or I guess when I think about it almost brings up like a fear because I forever was raised for the male gaze, Like that has been my bread and butter for many years and I think it feels frightening of like if you were to to get dressed just for yourself and, like I could see, as a starting practice for people that it would be like Eeks, like what do you do with that? Either fear, anxiety or that uncertainty when you're trying that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's such a great opportunity, isn't it? It's like what are you afraid of? It gives you some opportunity to have a conversation with yourself about what's underneath that. What am I trying to achieve? Like, what do I gain? What do I lose? Like, if you don't be a certain standard with your clothing, what happens? I think there's so many questions that come from that. I mean, you can still look in the mirror and you can still change your clothes. Have to. It's just an opportunity to connect with the experience of being in your body first. You can still look in the mirror, you can still change your mind, you can still add or subtract your outfit so that you do feel more comfortable in the world. But for your own personal experience with your own body, how cool would it be to just not look at it first? So it's an experiment. I think that helps with the experience, do?
Speaker 1:you have any other experiments that people can do?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing that I thought of when you said that is like I'm big on trying to stay connected to taste when you're making choices about your food, because so many times we have set up this expectation of a food being so amazing, especially if it's been previously forbidden, and we think it's such a bad food, so it's such a big deal when you finally have it and when you taste it, it's like ah, it's not that great.
Speaker 2:Anyway, like what was I thinking? I think really allowing yourself to have that taste and satisfaction piece to ride your choices is you have to be able to slow down and taste to be able to do this, and again, it requires some practice of slowing down and tasting and from that I think you get a lot of information. The satisfaction piece is that the very center of so many things. Yeah, it's much more than now, but it's food to me.
Speaker 2:The way you are with your food is the way you are so when you let yourself center your own satisfaction, you find yourself having a little bit more sense of agency about. My satisfaction is important, actually, so why am I making choices for your comfort instead of mine? For example, a lot starts to unravel when you allow yourself to center your own satisfaction. So my set of shift is that I am important to me, my satisfaction and my choices are important to me.
Speaker 1:I am allowing myself to ask for what I need, but the practice that the physical that you're speaking about is trying to take, I think that's so profound, Because I feel like, especially as we get older, midlife, the it's been so many years of you not being very important, because maybe you've been raising kids or maybe you've been working really hard or maybe you've been really involved in your family and the question never generally comes around about you and what you would like. And I think really which I like that centering your satisfaction, because actually centering yourself is like a nervy move of like what do I want? And I think that's absolutely why some people do get really lost too when they try intuitive eating, because they're like I don't even know, I can't remember a time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because we grow up generally not making choices about food or food or preference there, and then slide into a relationship where then, well, they don't like this, so then we do this, and but I think that is such a good preference for other, for lots of other people your kids, your parents, your boss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's that has to be like wonderful for you than working with women who are like oh, I mean, just I would assume there's just like a flowering and the petals opening, you know, once they are like oh, me Person, so I know you know this thing when you have an eating disorder is like no, I don't need anything, I don't need food, I don't need a snack, I don't need rest, I don't.
Speaker 2:I can still understand why other people need it, but I don't need it. I mean, it's such a central thing and when you allow yourself to get curious about your own satisfaction, your own needs, you know lots starts to blossom. It's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it seems like such a great intersection. I think that exhaustion sort of bleeds into it and then it becomes the fuck it, I cannot do all of these things, and it seems like just a wonderful cracking open. That is the opportunity of okay, well, this clearly isn't working anymore, so what next?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think menopause opens that door. There is, there is an opportunity there when everything else starts to like fall away because of all the things we said before. I mean sometimes I think that's what a hot flush is Like. Things are burning off. Getting to your truth.
Speaker 1:I'm burning my bad chi. That's what's happening.
Speaker 2:All the stuff that I don't need to worry about anymore is falling away.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think that is like just such. It's like a great invitation, because I think, like making sure, like you're finding this counter narrative and you're surrounding yourself with this counter narrative, because I think it is because of that letting yourself go is weaponized by every side. It's certainly not just men, like, there are plenty of women that are like oh well, deb. Oh, maybe sometimes we don't know her so yeah, yeah, yeah, openly kind of weaponizing that you can kind of see it on somebody's face.
Speaker 2:sometimes you just see it. Oh, I see what's happening.
Speaker 1:So what messaging do you think is most helpful for younger generations to hear, as they're not in this place and it's so far away?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean I am way into all the research around ageism and understanding internalized ageism and everything that I am excited about now around that is suggesting that the younger the better. When you start really looking at all of the ageist, beliefs and myths and stories that you've fallen for, and having friendships, relationships and your life that are multi-generational really helps, you can really see there are all kinds of ways to be all kinds of ages. It's not like in the storybook where older equals like scary and grumpy and stuck in their ways. You don't think about all the myths that we have about what it's like to be older, especially an older woman. I could really start to break all that down, dismantling all those beliefs as early as possible. So having friends at different ages is, to me, the easiest way to do that. I would encourage that for all of us because it goes both ways. We have beliefs about the younger kids too. That also problematic.
Speaker 1:I think being positive about it also, because I feel like I only heard downsides, which also so when I'm hearing this information I'm disordered.
Speaker 1:So if somebody's talking about oh my gosh, I'm gaining weight, like that registers, that would have registered for me then, but I feel like I just never had anybody be like, yeah, it's great, zero, fucks, I don't care anymore, I'm not doing to be able, because I think of both my mom and my grandmother. We're very young, but when I look back at what my grandma did when she got older, she had a ball, she worked at the senior center, she did her own thing and outside of my grandpa, and even when he passed away, she's still kicking it, volunteering, doing all sorts of fun things. When I look at her life, it used to just be like, well, that's what a grandma does. It's like no man. She was digging it, having fun and just doing her thing, didn't care what she was wearing, she was very unbothered. When I look at older pictures and she had the jet black hair and the pointy toad, patent leather pumps and things like that, and after a while she wore comfy stuff and it's like, yes, yes, lucy, that looks fantastic.
Speaker 2:It helps to have those mentors in front of you. Yes, those role models, they're the way Everybody has that. I rarely hear that from anybody. Yeah, and I think they didn't see it as a good time.
Speaker 1:I was talking to my oldest son, who was almost 23, about Andrew Paas the other day. We were thrifting together. I don't know how it got on this topic, but I was like you know that there's a time or testosterone drops and blah, blah, blah, and I worked in a little like ED happens. But there's things that you can do and I'm sure my son is like this is the best Saturday morning I've ever had with my mom, but it's like well, that is absolutely normal and if you're in your mid 40s or 50s and you're super tired, you're lethargic, like well, maybe it could be your hormones, but there's like a shift that'll happen and it doesn't have to be bad. Like there are solutions for it. Again, I don't know if that goes in his pocket of like fun time memories, but it's in there somewhere.
Speaker 2:It could be in the future. Change is part of life. Change is what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I was like making sure that change, because he, you know, has just come home from school and like his body has changed and I was like, well, you used to walk like five miles a day at school and right now it's yesterday was 114 degrees here and I was like, so nobody's walking anywhere. So obviously you might see some change. I definitely did, because I rode my bike and school miles and miles and miles a day. So it was a change, but it doesn't have to be good or bad and we don't necessarily have to do anything about it, it's just different. Well, are there any questions that I didn't ask that? You want anything else you want to add?
Speaker 2:You did a great job. When you first sent your questions, I was very excited, because I think you are good at what you do and you ask great questions. I don't have anything. I think we have a lot of terrible ones.
Speaker 1:You know, I'll take an A plus every day.
Speaker 2:Feed the beast Feed the beast.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I've got my new closing questions so I'm excited about using these. So if you didn't have this career like what would you want to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a very windy professional path, so I started out wanting to be a forest ranger and I really think that if there was any way, I found out later you had to carry a firearm if you were a forest ranger, so I don't really want to carry that. But there are ways to be a peaceful, narcissistic forest ranger. I would love that. Just to be out of the forest, meaning nature I think I love it and teach you people about the earth. Wow, be a great, great Forest ranger. Deb, that's funny, I don't have a hat.
Speaker 1:I need to get a hat. Yeah, obviously there's a new Halloween costume that then you could just try out every now and then and see how kicky you feel.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of programs in the National Park for, like, older citizens, so maybe that's my future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my dad is a huge National Park guy. He has RV, goes out and he's 76 and I'm convinced that we will lose him on a trail somewhere and that's fine, like that's not the worst way to go, and he always takes advantage of because I know they have a discount for their passes since they're seniors.
Speaker 2:I'll take that, yeah, why not Take it.
Speaker 1:Well, tell me what your biggest pet peeve is. Oh how about.
Speaker 2:We talked about that. I feel like I'm on a nondepod. I mean, really it is this concept of women have to be following the constraints, and stepping off that path means she's let herself go. That's gotta be not pet peeve of all time.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you got to talk about your biggest pet peeve, because that's where you get all the feistiness. When you're talking about something that really and I don't- know they get that. If something else too Could anyone, and what would you say?
Speaker 2:your proudest accomplishment is Well, I'm a single mom, so my boys are definitely my biggest accomplishment. They are 30 and 34. So super proud of raising them.
Speaker 1:It was also a lot of fun. I get that. I was a single mom for 13 years and wouldn't trade it. Some people are like, oh, single mom, and I'm like, nope, don't feel sad for me, I'm doing fine.
Speaker 2:I was trying to explain to my oldest because he had to be on his own with his kids this weekend. He was like how did you do this? I was like it was the best, I was tired.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was tired, but it was the best it was much fun. Okay, so the last one is what is your spiciest opinion that people disagree with?
Speaker 2:that your size doesn't equal your health. You can't tell. But looking at somebody, if they're healthy, absolutely, I will debate all day long.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, the conflation is real and it's everywhere and I deal with it so much in my work. Yeah, and it's like the one of the talk about like almost like a rule. That's like so deeply embedded in people's psyche that even the concept of you saying something contrary to that is like what do?
Speaker 2:you mean what Gospel, gospel?
Speaker 1:So where can everybody find you and get to know you better? Well, I'm pretty present on Instagram.
Speaker 2:My name there is at AginBuddyLiberation and that will take you to everything else. My website and such my website is my name, so it's pretty straightforward. Got it Instagram. That's probably the easiest route.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love your feed, so that is. I think again, like you're talking about bolstering yourself up or feeling like you need more nerve. I mean you have to follow people like yourself that you know it's like a daily pep talk. Don't fall for it, people Don't do it, you're like oh thanks, deb, I love it. Yeah, so I enjoy your Instagram. I'm glad you have it, so hopefully more people.
Speaker 2:It's funny, this weird relationship we have. A social media. It does a lot of damage, but there's a great community there too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why I do like Instagram and I'm really not anywhere else because you really can curate it and protect yourself from things that you don't need to see and you don't need to hear. True.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm very active in reporting scams since BAM I don't do. Report black, report black, report, black, all day long, yeah, and then like every 30 days that I was back up again and I'm at it again. It's probably an aging. The stuff that comes at you is so upsetting.
Speaker 1:I can't even imagine I tried to really shelter myself.
Speaker 2:I can't stop anymore. If it's not cosmetics, it's crazy diets, it's all the wellness stuff you know yeah absolutely Well.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being here. It was so nice chatting with you, glad everybody got to listen to your perspective.
Speaker 2:I love to interrupt you.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man, I love to interrupt you Doing it? Yeah, alright. Well, we will see you soon. Alright, thank you Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye.