The Air We Breathe: Finding Well-Being That Works for You

E17. Toxic Trends: MLMS, Mommy Boozing and Diet Culture with Emily Lynn Paulson

• Heather Sayers Lehman, MS, NBC-HWC, NASM-CPT, CSCS, CIEC, CWP • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Have you ever wondered how diet culture, MLM culture, and mommy wine culture are interconnected? This convo really made me think!

In my latest episode, I sit down with Emily Paulson, author, founder of Sober Mom Squad, and recovery advocate, to uncover how these systems prey on women and moms, promoting unrealistic expectations and perpetuating the need for support and self-improvement. 

As we navigate through the 99.7% failure rate of MLMs and the damaging effects of diet culture on our mental health and self-worth, Emily shares her personal experiences with these systems and how she discovered their deceptive marketing strategies. 

We also dive into the importance of having open, honest conversations about these topics, and how an "all food is available" mentality can break the cycle of restriction and perfectionism.

In the end, we speak about her understanding of what diet culture is and how our size, the number on the scale, and the food we eat does not equate to our worthiness as people, leading her to ditch the scale as a way to move away from diet culture. 

I enjoyed speaking with Emily and relating to her as a mom, trying to ensure we don't pass on these damaging messages from diet culture to our children. I hope you enjoy our conversation, too!

Bio:

Emily Lynn Paulson is the author of Highlight Real: Finding Honesty and Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life, and Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multi Level Marketing . She has given two powerful TEDx talks, both challenging the status quo of parenting, alcohol use, and feminism as we know it. Paulson has also been featured in major publications such as the Today Show, New York Times, Washington Post, The Seattle Times, Chicago Tribune, Next Question with Katie Couric, and the Tamron Hall Show. She resides in Central Oregon with her husband and their five children.

Links:

Instagram & TikTok: @emilylynnpaulson

https://www.sobermomsquad.com/

Resources:

 

Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to The Air We Breathe. I'm your host, heather Sayers-Laman. I'm a certified intuitive eating counselor, national Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, certified personal trainer and weight-inclusive well-being program consultant. The Air We Breathe is a podcast sharing stories of individual experiences in diet culture. Some guests have recently become aware of diet culture, while others are well-versed in the impact and have created a career in advocacy and equity. No story is more worthy than another. The goal is to help people understand that they are not alone in their struggles, and the systems that create these issues impact us all. This podcast contains talk about eating disorders and disordered eating. We do minimize mentions of specific behaviors and numbers, but it's still a topic nonetheless. There also could be some swears and or adult language here. Choose wisely if those are problematic for you. So I'm here today with Emily Paulson And Emily, why don't you just jump right in and tell me a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2:

Sure, so I am an author. I have a book I wrote about three years ago and another that's coming out in three weeks, and I run a group called Sober Mom Squad for Moms in Recovery. So I'm a recovery advocate. I'm also a mom of five, a wife, and, yeah, all of that in my vast spare time.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, absolutely I can imagine how much spare time you have. I was really interested in having you here because I'm so interested in kind of the through lines with diet culture and then MLM culture, but also kind of like the boozy mom culture I don't know if you have a name for that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, wine mom culture or mommy wine culture. Yeah, i think the through line is they're all trying to fill the same need, like there's this idea that we have to do it all and we're not doing enough, and there's this elusive like thing that we're missing And we have this need to escape and we don't have a village, and so we're offered these really crappy solutions that don't fix anything. We're offered alcohol to like numb us, and we're offered diets to distract us and make us think that our smaller bodies will be better, and we have MLMs that promise us utopia and financial freedom and they actually have a 99.7% failure rate. So I think it's this. It all stems from this lack of having actual, reasonable supports for women and moms in our country.

Speaker 1:

It absolutely makes so much sense. And I think when I joined Facebook so I've been off of Facebook, I think since 2017 cause I was like this is a dumpster fire. But I was on it for a while and really enjoyed it And some of the things I thought were most peculiar are the things you talk about, And I will say I grew up with an alcoholic mother, So the cute Rose all day and drinking wine I always, you know, hit me a little different, cause I was like, yeah, I don't know that that is as cute as you think it is. It's so impactful on your kids And it's also really interesting.

Speaker 1:

My kids are gonna, say, 20 and 22. Now, I just forgot how old my son was And my 20 year old when he was a teenager. We have these sort of family-ish functions on a different side And he said to me he said you know, you're the only adult that doesn't drink and drink a lot at these functions, And it is not a conversation. They have known they come from alcoholism. This is something we watch out for And I thought it was so interesting that he was so aware of the drinking that was going on around him.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, i mean, kids see and know so much more than you give them credit for. It's you know, they absorb all the messages they get from the media and TV shows. And then you know we tell them like don't drink, don't drink, don't do drugs, and then we just ingest alcohol at every event, every social function, every birthday party, and it's the mixed messaging that can be really damaging, and it's really not a matter of whether you drink or not. That's one thing I always say. It's like you don't have to be a sober person to have an impactful, really good, meaningful conversation with your kids. It's you know, are you talking about it at all? And a lot of parents are afraid to talk about it because they don't want to confront their own usage. They don't want to wonder what that says about them, that they can't go to a brunch without having a mimosa, that they can't have a Super Bowl party without having a keg, and that's uncomfortable, Interesting, And I also, like Facebook, introduced me to kind of MLMs, which I used to be solely in fitness.

Speaker 1:

And you know, I moved into health coaching And I thought it was like the wildest thing, like people, because I actually owned a gym at the time And people were like Hey, hey, hun, Did you want to? And it was all this beach body stuff, And I was so perplexed I was like I don't even understand, like to your point of the 99%, Like how does this even make sense? And like then you want me to have a job as, like DMing people and selling them shakes, Like I don't. You know I'm very snooty McSnoodyerson about my master's in exercise science, And so, like, looking at that whole thing, I was like so now you're a coach, like you used to be a bank teller but now you're a fitness coach.

Speaker 2:

Yep, Yeah, you bought a business kit And now you're a health coach. Like how does that work? Yeah, there's no training, no vetting.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, so very, very interesting. So I always like find the space very interesting because it has been a head scratcher to me for a while. Yeah Well, tell me your understanding of diet culture.

Speaker 2:

I think. for me, it's this overarching belief that our size or the foods we eat should dictate, like our worth and our ability to get services, healthcare, jobs and be treated the same as everybody else.

Speaker 1:

Yes, So much, what is your first memory or your first experience of diet culture?

Speaker 2:

My very first memory was in sixth grade And I remember this vividly because I don't remember up to that point ever really understanding dieting or why people would lose weight or anything like that. you know, i just ate food and was blissfully unaware of any of that. And yet I was in the 80s when there was dexatrim and slim fast and it was. I knew about it, but we had mandatory, you know, weigh-ins every year with a school nurse right in elementary school, and I happened to have lost five pounds from the year before. you know who knows, hadn't grown like who knows why. I didn't think about it, i didn't care. And I just mentioned it to a friend and I was like, oh, yeah, i lost five pounds from last year. And she grabbed my shoulders and she looked at me and she was like, oh, my God, congratulations, good job.

Speaker 2:

And that was my first, you know. I was like, why is she congratulating me? And then it was like, oh, that's a good thing to weigh less. And I really internalize that, i really remember that. And that is when I then really started noticing like, oh, we have slim fast in the cabinet. or, you know, there's all these diet programs and workout videos, and you know, then as I got older and middle school and high school, it was the Victoria Secret catalogs, and so that's, that was really what I think opened my eyes to it as a child.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. I always think it's so because for most people I talk to it's some comment in some way, because really, a sixth grader losing five pounds over a year as a cause for alarm of like, oh, is there a growth problem? Or, you know, is there an issue? So it's really interesting, and also like from a fellow sixth grader that she had internalized that message enough to know. Like, this is the goal, This is what we're going for, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

Wow.

Speaker 1:

Well, in what ways do you think diet culture has been the most damaging for you? I think again.

Speaker 2:

It was really in my high school and college years that there was a very one dimensional standard of beauty. You know, around the late 90s It was again like the Victoria Secret model the very thin, long torso, no body fat, huge boobs, look natural very natural.

Speaker 1:

Yes, very natural.

Speaker 2:

And that's what I really wanted to strive for And that's when I started, you know, trying different diets And you know I did like the whole Atkins thing And you know it. Just, it began my, i think, really just the orthorexia of knowing how many calories and everything and and over exercising. That was really, i think it was the visual of. There was only one standard of beauty shown in the media, magazines, anywhere.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Well, is there? are there any ways that you feel like diet culture was beneficial for you?

Speaker 2:

I mean, i guess, in a hindsight, like I did learn a lot about nutrition, like like I learned and I don't know that this is necessarily a good thing but I learned about what carbohydrates were And even if I didn't understand really the good and bad about them, it was more an oh how can I lose weight way. But I knew what vegetables had vitamin A in them and what vegetables had fiber, and so I I sought out to learn more, but I think my intention was towards weight loss and not necessarily any type of health. But I, but I still learned it all the same.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which I think is interesting. Like, as a coach, i certainly, when somebody comes to me, i don't really generally question their knowledge. I feel like you probably know more than you would ever need to know. And you also have all of this conflicting information about you know, just about fiber, like, oh no, it really needs to be here. Oh no, you know you're going to die if it's only here. I mean, you know these like wildly different messages, but I do think that that is like such an interesting side effect. One is that everybody is an expert but that just in your spare time, instead of learning a new hobby or anything like that, you're just like well, maybe I should be memorizing all of this data.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think learning really early that these things are always changing. I mean, you remember, like snack wells, the whole craze of like low fat, everything was low fat, no fat, and so the goal was like to find foods with no fat, low fat, but they had a ton of sugar in them. So, and then they were like, oh, no, that's not good, now you don't want sugar. And now, oh, eggs are bad. No, now eggs are good. I mean I can't tell you how many things went back and forth that I finally kind of started to realize like maybe none of this actually matters, maybe nobody knows anything, and we're just like throwing spaghetti on a wall to see what sticks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's the. I mean, you know it's a zero sum game. There is no winning in diet culture, because even if you're like nailing my nutrition doing so well, it's like well, what about your hydration? Are you doing enough of that? Are the? are your supplements the right supplements, or what about this spot? I mean, there's always something else that you need to be striving to change or perfect, certainly in everything that I ever see.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, there's never a good enough. It's. you know well. what about the seed oils you're using And what about? it's like wait, what do you mean? And and and a lot of the. you know I had got my degree in chemistry And so a lot of the things I started seeing after I graduated from college were very much in conflict with the things I understood about science. And I'm like okay, so people are extrapolating these really really bizarre studies that are done on rats that actually didn't amount to anything And they're extrapolating them to everybody. Like you know, red wine is good for you, like that whole thing. that's actually not true. And you know, aspartame causes cancer and all of these things that you know. again, i think things start with like a shred of truth and a shred of evidence, but nothing ever comes of it And people just blow it up to serve their need to sell you products. That's. I really started seeing that it was all just marketing.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's nice that you had the the heads up. Yeah, maybe this isn't true. Yeah, well, tell me about. Obviously you were in. Well, how long were you in the MLM that you were in?

Speaker 2:

Almost seven years Okay.

Speaker 1:

So then, what presence did diet culture play within that environment?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, So the particular MLM I was involved in wasn't a health product MLM, It was like a skincare beauty brand. So it definitely perpetuated you know, the ideal beauty standards. Still, like all of the models were all still thin and, you know, conventionally attractive. Most of the consultants were white, thin, conventionally attractive, right. So there was still like a mold of diet culture within that model. So I think it was. it was more just it kind of bastardized what was already present in the culture And you know, MLM people tend to really support other MLM people and MLM products.

Speaker 2:

So there was a lot of crossover. Like I purchased, you know, essential oils from MLMs and I purchased the cleanses and stuff from MLM. So I think there's a lot of crossover there And I think, beyond that, I think MLMs really hit all the pain points of motherhood. And you know, hey, you're lonely, Here's an option for you. Oh, you need money, Here's an option for you. You need to lose baby weight? Here's an option for you. And it packages it all together. No matter what the products are, It's all about just finding something that fits. And I think diet culture is a really sinister way to do that And a really sinister way that MLMs do that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, i definitely think diet culture preys on that vulnerability of being a woman one, and that your body may have changed too, and that obviously your moral imperative is to get that body back, if not better than it was Before. And I feel like that diet culture messaging is, like it means, so wildly pervasive that obviously we celebrate oh, she snapped back, and I could see how that would really kind of having that message intertwined with the no community And certainly nobody's saying like, yeah, your body would change after having a kid And when you get to menopause, like your body will probably change again, and like that's okay, that's what happens, that there's it feels like and you could tell me it feels like within those communities that nobody's saying that there's always some kind of intervention that you need to be doing. Oh, yeah, you always need to be improving yourself.

Speaker 2:

Like you're never. I think that the overarching message is that you're never good enough as you are. There's something that you can be approving, whether it's improving, whether it's your looks or your finances, or your social network, or you know. Whatever It's that you're just not good enough on your own. And instead of figuring out how do we embrace ourselves and how do we love ourselves as we are, or just recognize that how we look has nothing to do with how successful or happy we are, Let's, you know, make this into something we can purchase and package Yikes which I mean it's so easy to look around and see all of those different pieces Because I think I've been an entrepreneur for, you know, over 20 some years, and that sort of hustle culture.

Speaker 1:

Again, it's like you know, are you, are you doing something about this? It's like you know they're all into the tap dancing. that you know you need to be spending more plates doing more, and then you'll reach your final destination of massive worthiness. Yeah, yeah. Well, what sources of diet culture do you feel are the most persistent and influential?

Speaker 2:

I think the messages are still, the size of your body is equal to health or equal to worth. I think that's something that's just people don't even realize. Realize how much they internalize that message. You know when, when you see someone and they've lost weight, you know you're like to congratulate them instead of thinking, oh no, i hope they're okay.

Speaker 2:

I wonder if they've been sick, or maybe they've had a miscarriage, or you know, maybe they're getting cancer treatment, or maybe there's no reason, maybe their body's just changed for no reason, but that it's that smaller is better and bigger. There must be a problem, right, that ultimately, there must be something wrong with the body. And the whole thought of like that, like the obesity epidemic which is there's so much to that, that is just junk science, that people just come in different body sizes and it that really doesn't equate to their health. So, yeah, i think, though, this constant push to like know what people weigh and know their BMI, and it's like, when we really investigate, like where did that even come from and why is that a thing And there's really no like scientific, medical basis to it, other than like giving medication at the right dose, other than that, like you really shouldn't need to go get weighed at the doctor's office.

Speaker 1:

Like yeah, yeah, i think that's an interesting. You know, i work a lot in corporate wellness and that's very BMI oriented And it is really interesting because the more I talk about it, the less I get invited to talk.

Speaker 2:

Because they're like no, this is the metric. We have.

Speaker 1:

This is all we have. Yeah, because conferences I used to, you know, do probably for more standard talks. And then I had a talk of, you know, wellness without weight and really looking at if you really want to help people be healthier. There are ways to influence health habits that don't have to do with weight. And like all these conferences are like no, no no.

Speaker 1:

And I'm like Oh, so, but that like, because obviously you know diet culture certainly permeates all cultures. So then, even in these decision makers, they're like constantly conflating weight and health. And yeah, well, how else would you tell if you're healthy? And I certainly remember, you know, biometric screenings or whatever. And it's like Oh, blood sugar is good, cholesterol good, blood pressure is good, But BMI. and it's like, yeah, or it could just be like things look good, like you're doing well, keep it up. Do you have any questions?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. it's really interesting to that when you see that there's no link. Again, it's like, well, you're worried about my BMI because the risk of my heart attack is higher or the risk of this is higher, but when you find those biometric results and see that it's not, then why is my weight still? a thing Like that doesn't. that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i'm a big non scale person And I think I just did a real last week because I went to my doctor's office and I got like stink eye because I always decline, you know, in a perfectly normal, gracious way. Well, do you feel that you've perpetuated diet culture, either consciously or unconsciously?

Speaker 2:

I'm sure I have. I think, you know, obviously through the years, like when I was dieting and when I was, you know, actively trying to have a smaller body size, i think I've for sure perpetuated it, but I, ever since I've been aware of how damaging it is, i've really tried to. You know, i don't comment on people's before and after photos. I don't comment on people's bodies at all. I find other ways to compliment people. I just I make weight the least interesting thing about anybody, and about myself too, yeah, which is oh I, i.

Speaker 1:

It just feels so kind, also Because, again, it would be nice to be noticed for other things other than your body. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, kind of from that, like what messages made you more aware of diet culture?

Speaker 2:

You know, i think, seeing before and afters on social media I think, you know, the rise of social media was great and also really perpetuated a lot of those messages and realizing myself, you know, doing that discovery of like okay, have I ever been happier at a smaller body size? Have I ever been more fulfilled at a smaller body size? Have I ever, you know, fill in the blank? And the answer was always no. Like were there things that were easier? It was easier to like, buy a pair of jeans, like, that's probably it, that's probably it. But I wasn't happier, i wasn't more fulfilled, i was more stressed out, i was more obsessive, restricting, hungry. So I think realizing the impact it had on me made me, you know, want to stay away from it and not, not perpetuate it.

Speaker 1:

Did like within the MLM, like were there messages or kind of winks to people that you know? this is something that you need to keep an eye on as well.

Speaker 2:

I mean the only people who were asked to like speak on stage all looked a certain way Right. So it was never outright said like, hey, if you don't fit into a size four or whatever, you're not going to be asked to speak. That was never explicitly said, but you could look around and see that people weren't on stage who were not a straight size like you know, small size And I think also it. You know, mlms tend to be their own closed environments And so when one person does one thing, a lot of other people do it. So there were people who would participate in, like, a diet program or a fitness challenge or however. You know you want to put lipstick on a pig and then lots of other women in the MLM would do it Like I really specifically remember lots of people being on the exact same diet and eating the same foods, which makes sense.

Speaker 2:

When you're like replicating what your upline does, you know you're going to take on really anything. So I did see that a lot. And also in in the marketing. I mean the models and marketing and advertisements. They're all you know thin, straight sized women. They're not. There was no body diversity of any kind Interesting.

Speaker 1:

I was wonder, with that closed loop, then if I were in a larger body would I just not want to even join? or if I'm watching, you know, just the smaller people get the rewards. Does that make people kind of filter themselves out?

Speaker 2:

I definitely have heard from people like they see a photo from the beach or whatever with a bunch of women and bikinis and they're like, oh, i don't think I could. You know, i don't look like you guys, i don't think I could join you on that trip or whatever. So I'm sure that that's a very internalized And if you don't see yourself in something, why would you want to join it? But I know, you know I have friends who were in the organization, who did live in larger bodies and They didn't get asked to speak. You know they didn't get asked to have their photos taken or whatever. So you know, it was definitely a thing.

Speaker 1:

And if you've been out for a while, are they? I mean, i've seen other MLMs, like you know, awful ones, whatever. The beach body changed to body And I think they had rebranding an event And there was like one woman in a slightly larger body and a woman of color on stage, when the rest of them that I see are all small and toxic and mouthy and gross about the way that they talk about bodies And I was like is this, like this is a thing that you guys are doing? And are people like oh, look at this diversity, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. It's an attempt right To it's again. It's just marketing, it's not. It's nothing's changing from the inside. I mean, you have to burn the whole thing down for for that to happen And that's not happening. They're just putting a new name on something because they're trying to fit into this new world where people are recognizing that diet culture is toxic.

Speaker 1:

Yes, well, what shifts have you made that were helpful to get you to move away from diet culture?

Speaker 2:

Not having a scale in the house, that's a big thing. I think the numbers were always what were you know? triggering to me. And even if I felt like wonderful in the morning if that number didn't say what I thought it should, you know. So I just knew for myself, like what was the point? What am I going to do with that information that's going to change the rest of my day? Nothing. So why? why know it? Why, why care about it?

Speaker 2:

And just the fact that, like, no foods are off limits to me, because I know for myself that restriction and I know for most people restriction is what you know leads to binging And I always considered myself I consider myself to have a sweet tooth. I like sweets, but when I restricted them and I did not allow myself to have them, then it was, it was like you know, binge city. And now if I have them around, it's just they're always available to me And I know that I can have what I want. I don't have to hoard anything, i don't have to be worried that it's going to be gone later. So I think those are the biggest things is just not having a scale and knowing that all food is available to me.

Speaker 1:

And do you see a reflection with your kids behavior around food? because you have it available all the time that they're like whatever, yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's by design. I've been very as a parent. That's the one thing I think I've been most worried about is passing on any of that to them, because I know how early it started for me And you know I had a unique situation with one of my daughters was a failure to thrive baby. Just for you know, she's outgrown it now, but for years you know, we had to feed her like weight gain shakes and like she could eat whatever she wanted, and that was always a hard dynamic. When the other kids are like, why can she?

Speaker 2:

have a milkshake after dinner And I'm like, well, you guys can have, you know, your own kind of milkshake to, and, you know, showing just that people have different medical needs, people have different nutrition needs, everybody's different. Everybody needs a different amount of, you know, calories or whatever, and your body's going to need different things at different times. And so just I was worried at a time where I was like, Oh God, i'm letting them eat whatever they want And it's going to be awful, and it's like now they have their own likes, dislikes, they have. You know, they've, in my opinion, have a very normal relationship with food And I think it's because nothing was ever restricted for them, like they, you know, it's never like clean your plate, it was never like, oh you, if you finish your dinner, you can have dessert. It's just like there's cake if you want it, like, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1:

I think that really helped And I think that such an important message because I worry so much about, you know, the clean eating because of course you know, i had orthorexia, you know, and I was also raising kids And I was lucky to have done my thesis in graduate school and eating disorders, so I knew enough that, like they had donuts, pop tarts, like whatever you know, they also had salmon and broccoli, but they had access, because I see all kinds of like awful things, like the home edit is like Oh, we put the bad snacks back here.

Speaker 1:

I'm always like, oh shit, please, i know That's not. And I think you know, and part of like doing this podcast also and like having parents listen to, how important it is to not, you know, like ram that down your kids throat of, like, wait, what does that have? And I definitely, as I watched my kids get older, you know I certainly had to go back to them and say you know what? I was diagnosed with thyroid disease And tried to eat my way healthy and didn't. And that was an eating disorder And that's not normal. So you know it's also not helpful to be eating separate foods from your kids too. But I think that and I had a son who was underweight when he was older, you know, as a teenager, and he even said because then it is okay. Well, here's our weight gain strategies. And he said there isn't anything I ever see that tells me it's a good idea for me to be gaining weight. It's like.

Speaker 1:

Oh boy, yeah. And it's like yeah, where would you see that? Yeah, yeah. And so it's like always so interesting, because I think kids like kind of reflect the most interesting things back that you're like Oh shit, you're right, yeah, there is nothing that that is saying that And let's talk about it now. you know and kind of like course correct some of those pieces that you know, if they're not picking it up from us, they're seeing it everywhere else.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't even know what they see on social media, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think asking questions is so helpful. You know, like my daughter would ask, like you know, is this healthy for you Or is this good for you? And I'd be like, well, what does good mean to you? What do you mean? Well, does it have a lot of vitamins? Oh, yeah, that has a lot of vitamins. You know, like that has a lot of nutrition.

Speaker 2:

Or like, is it bad to eat too many whatever in a day? too many crackers, too many something with like not a lot of like nutrients or something? And I'm like, well, it's not so much that you know it's bad to eat anything. Nothing has like value or morals, but it's like what else are you eating? You know, and, and if you know, you really just you don't have to like over analyze it, but you know, make sure every week you're getting some fruits and vegetables and nutrition, and then then it matters less when you eat those things. Yeah, so focusing more on what you are eating instead of cutting things out was has always been my thing. It's like, yeah, you can have a donut, for sure. Make sure you're also getting something with vitamins. Make sure you're also getting some protein. Make sure also, instead of don't have that because that's bad for you Like. That to me is, yeah, where I. That's how I feel like I was raised.

Speaker 1:

So great And I think my favorite accounts that I follow that you know, are RDS that talk about kids, you know, are always talking about pairings And I love watching that of like absolutely gummy bears, you know, and what protein would you like to have? with it And I'm always like oh, that would have been so good. Yeah, yeah. So are there any other shifts away from diet culture that you're interested in implementing in the future?

Speaker 2:

I think I just am always open to learning where I am and where I'm not perpetuating diet culture where I could do better. You know, i think, as as more information comes out and we learn more about health, and you know we, i think I think it's just learning. You know, i don't know what I don't know, and so I'm always open to learning more.

Speaker 1:

Well, what hopes do you have for future generations in regards to diet culture?

Speaker 2:

I really, really hope that you know, especially girls will will not relate their size to their worth And that all body types will be celebrated and that won't be so internalized. It's hard to know as an adult. Looking now at magazines and ads And I see a lot more body diversity for sure, And I hope that's helpful. But I also know there's a lot of messages on social media that probably aren't that helpful. So that that's my hope is that that kids will grow up knowing that their the size of their body doesn't make them more interesting or less interesting or smarter or better or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think that's. It will be interesting to watch as they get older, because they've at least been exposed to the concept of body diversity and that not everybody looks like this. That, you know, ideal body. That's what I think, because you know eating disorders are certainly on the rise And I know I didn't have any sort of contrary.

Speaker 1:

You know it was Cindy Crawford you know, and there weren't any other messages sort of rebuffing the fact that you could look the way that you look and that was perfectly fine. So I think it will be interesting to see what, incorporating the other messages, and if there's a way that some of this gets turned down also. Yeah, but maybe they reject it a little bit more. Fingers crossed, yeah, let's hope. Well, if you could recommend one thing for someone who's trying to move away from diet culture, what would that be?

Speaker 2:

Getting rid of the scale, i think, is huge. I think people keep it around like just in case or whatever. It's like you do not need to know how much you weigh for for any reason, unless you have some again like dosing thing with medication or whatever. Get rid of the scale. Try to look at labels less. And I think this is what's really hard, because you know, when I was growing up, there was no calories when you went to McDonald's right next to the hamburger. And now it's like I don't, like I don't want to know, i don't want to see that I don't care. So trying to avoid that as much as possible and asking yourself like do I want this? You know, does this make my body feel good? Instead of oh, you know, i got to check off the number of calories per day, like trying to get away from those numbers Because they don't mean anything, they really don't.

Speaker 1:

Yes, i was just talking before this about exercising. We're talking about all the metrics and data and all the things you can look at and how incredibly inaccurate and also not meaningful And some people really like to bio hack it all out, and I'm you know is that contributing to you feeling better in your body? like more in tune with your body's messages? Like right Just pulls constantly in the way, the same. Well, you need to be doing something different. You need to be doing something more like this, is it okay?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think again it's everything starts with something well meaning, like, yep, move your body in ways that you love, like that's great. Oh, i love to walk, okay, great. Well, i'm going to get a step counter And I'm going to do a 10,000 steps a day, and now, if I don't get 10,000 steps, i have anxiety. It's like you create then another problem when, again, it should. You should be moving to enjoyable ways that make you feel good, not ways that make you feel like you're not doing enough. You know, yeah, it's like we ruin everything. Yeah, with, with, diet culture.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that is the biggest kind of the questions of like then why am I doing this? you know, asking, and I think a lot of it is, you know, just true obedience of like. Well then, this will keep me. The scale keeps me on track, you know, knowing my steps keeps me on track of like. What is this?

Speaker 1:

you know, is this track track, you know, is this help me? Yeah, and I think you know there just aren't a lot of questions because, again, there aren't a lot of sources of that question. Who is ever telling you of, like no, you don't have to participate in that like what? So, except for me and you, yeah, well, it was really nice talking to you, because I don't know what it is. I enjoy an angry anti MLM voice almost over so many others. What? because one it's sticking up for women, because you know, women are certainly the most harmed by these organizations, you know, and there's never enough room for sass in my day. Also, because I also do applaud you, because I know there's there's got to be tremendous blowback that comes from you with your fancy opinions over there.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, there is, But there's more people who reach out and thank me or say, wow, this really opened my eyes, or wow, I'm really glad to hear someone else having gone through that that it makes it totally worth it.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, even outside of, i've never been involved in one. I'm out. I have several accounts that I follow and I really always like your content because I'm like yeah, exactly Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Take that Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Well, where can people find you?

Speaker 2:

So I'm on pretty much all platforms at Emily Lynn Paulson And, again, I do have a book coming out May 30th. Depending on when this airs, it's either out or not out yet, but it is called Hey Huns Sale, Sisterhood, Supremacy and the other lies behind multi-level marketing. And, yeah, I'd love to reach out, I'd love to hear what you think about the book And I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1:

Great. Well, i hope people do look, because I found you through Roe House a while ago, your publisher, and so I always get excited about their books because I'm like, ooh, somebody's going to be mad about this.

Speaker 2:

They're all about disruptive stories, which I love, which is why I was able to write about it. So that's fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Well, best of luck with your launch And I'm sure your book is going to do great. I'm excited to Excited to read it myself. Thank you so much. All right, take care, okay, bye. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the Air We Breathe podcast. I would love it if you would follow or subscribe to the pod. That way you'll get the newest episodes right when they come out. Also, please feel free to leave a five star review and let me know what you think about the podcast. Take care.